13/04/2014 Sunday Politics South West


13/04/2014

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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

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their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

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time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the

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issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the

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Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever

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we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political

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In the south`west. The plans to commentators.

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In the south`west. The plans to create more jobs and boost wages.

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And the row about the cost of a new nuclear power station at Hinkley

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Point. newspapers which some claim are

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politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of

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local services. So all that to come between now and

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quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be

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debating the European elections Here in the studio we have Syed

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Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard

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Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader

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of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of

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communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us

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their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they

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drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed

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Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is

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about. The vote to choose members of the

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European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same

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day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK

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sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional

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representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.

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What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has

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grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or

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reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have

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been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,

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banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.

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Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe

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needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to

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change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of

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the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems

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will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives will offer

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the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a

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conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a

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referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think

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Britain is better off in Europe vote for the Liberal Democrats. The

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Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe

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and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to

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pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and

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jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the

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courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in

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Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from

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Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are

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not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs

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and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,

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reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good

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Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who

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is risking your job and Britain s prosperity because of divisions in

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his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth

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opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a

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declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a

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20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in

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Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt to

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force on the European people European this as their primary

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collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do

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not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.

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That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why

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should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can

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deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics

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and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that

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Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state

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status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading

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deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in

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the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those

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elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation

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states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that

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many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your

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feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the

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EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the

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28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to

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the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of

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Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters

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will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal

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Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because

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we are the only party trying to change the EU and offer reform. We

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have offered renegotiation and a referendum. And how would you vote

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in such a referendum? We have no idea whether he would vote yes or

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no. Let him answer. I will answer that question. If the EU continues

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on this road, towards a United States of Europe, and if there was

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no change at the time of the referendum, then I would probably

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vote to leave. You have no confidence in David Cameron? We

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Javier Culson opportunity to read negotiate our relationship with

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Europe and the Conservatives are at the forefront of that agenda. David

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Cameron have not given a list of demands. He said that if things do

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not change, he will probably vote to leave, is that right? If at the time

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of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and

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we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the

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last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.

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Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And

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that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different

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animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour

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government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a

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free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the

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elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If

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you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the

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party of government that they probably want you to leave because

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the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of

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commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not

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give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social

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powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is

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so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that

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there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why

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wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of

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reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is

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because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be

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unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of

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a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your

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leader missing in action? Ed Miliband is unable to say even the

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positive things that you are saying. He has run away from the argument.

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He actually said there would not be a referendum in his time.

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For a conservative to say they will have a referendum but not give the

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reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity

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in that debate. He said that the Eurosceptic view was to leave

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Britain like Billy no mates. I can say that he is the best qualified

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person to say that. Sarah Ludford, you have said that lots of people

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are going to vote Lib Dem but that is not what the polls are saying.

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You are 7% in two polls this morning. Eclectic's decision to

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champion Europe has been a disaster for you. You face wet out. We swayed

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a lot of people our way with Nick Clegg's debate. Where is the

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evidence? We are the only party that is completely united, saying that we

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are wanting to stay in. It is essential because formally and jobs

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are supported by our trade with the EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding

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a lot of moderate conservative voters are actually fed up with the

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Tories being split and divided all over the place. Syed Kamall saying

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that we might vote in rout. -- in or out. We are consistent. A poll in

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London showed that 18% would vote for us. I am delighted about that.

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London is not the whole country it may surprise you. We need to move on

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to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the

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rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to

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come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a

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proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to

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people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who

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come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a

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society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to

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address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come

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here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the

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numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for

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National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a

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Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not

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count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is

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shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free

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movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who

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want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the

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free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said

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it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming

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here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here

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and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is

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shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the

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British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net

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immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of

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fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year

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because we have no volume control and no quality control from

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immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP

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address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You

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do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single

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member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an

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MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of

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-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that

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worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not

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object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living

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standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But

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these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people

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running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year

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to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for

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benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to

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be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as

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to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other

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countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a

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state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British

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economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and

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benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And

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they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government

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has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.

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They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard

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Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to

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allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from

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2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and

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hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We

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make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional

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controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to

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re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,

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open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who

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was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted

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by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an

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under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have

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tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four

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years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour

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Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.

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Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and

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benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are

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going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if

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their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they

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have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country

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because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy

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politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no

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volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as

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if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money

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for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage

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workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have

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all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the

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health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current

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situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners

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with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their

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health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the

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health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's

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interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue

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collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health

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Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is

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a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and

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Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it

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through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't

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thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats

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support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on

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non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.

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No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you

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have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have

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people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,

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not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move

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on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to

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give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm

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Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to

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pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are

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guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the

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first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing

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national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening

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peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more

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powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has

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-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not

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Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small

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island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if

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that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send

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troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we

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have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his

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policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was

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waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. .

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Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a

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political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good

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foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU

:20:16.:20:21.

shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy

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that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would

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be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?

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No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible

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outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?

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What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.

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How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.

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Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel

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Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,

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"We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU

:21:06.:21:11.

taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards

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trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has

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the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its

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own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it

:21:30.:21:36.

want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the

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mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU

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policy. We had an Anglo French deal on Syria. A by lateral deal. A

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European dimension. No, buy lateral. We have a European Union that wants

:21:53.:21:58.

to expand ever-more into other people's spheres of influence. If we

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are going to stand up to what Putin is do, which obviously Nigel Farage

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has no intentions of doing, you have to get your act together on economic

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sanctions and diplomatic force and in trade matters, in supporting

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eastern European countries. Sayeria, who and whose army? And NATO and

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working transatlanticically, is important through NATO. I will come

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to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said that the idea of an EU Army was "A

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dangerous fantasy that is simply not true ""Why then, are we already

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working on etch U-owned and controlled drones -- EU-owned and

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the President of the European Parliament has said that the

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majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not

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speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will

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not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is

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President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which

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can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe

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because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks

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that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working

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together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO

:23:17.:23:22.

job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,

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in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each

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other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU

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has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps

:23:38.:23:40.

our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and

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would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out

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of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war

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Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within

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Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern

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borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more

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important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our

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borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about

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the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the

:24:15.:24:18.

European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.

:24:19.:24:25.

Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the

:24:26.:24:28.

right place with a British Foreign Secretary to decide our foreign

:24:29.:24:33.

policy. You say that, but can I quote David Cameron, this is germain

:24:34.:24:38.

to what you are saying, David Cameron said "There is no doubt that

:24:39.:24:43.

we are more powerful than Washington, Beijing and Delhi,

:24:44.:24:47.

because we are a powerful player in the European Union." Do you agree?

:24:48.:24:50.

He is saying that there are times when it comes to international

:24:51.:24:53.

foreign affairs when you have to cooperate with partners. Often they

:24:54.:24:57.

are EU partners but often they are not. The problem we have...

:24:58.:25:02.

Washington have made it very clear that it wants Britain to talk

:25:03.:25:08.

through Brussels. No, not at all. Talk through the French and

:25:09.:25:13.

Italians, come on, wake up? Through the EU collective. I'm vice chair of

:25:14.:25:18.

the EU delegation. I hear it from the American counterparts. They want

:25:19.:25:21.

the EU to get itself together and not least on Ukraine. Why should our

:25:22.:25:27.

sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? I want to hear from Syed calm

:25:28.:25:30.

amplgts the British Parliament is the right place to decide our

:25:31.:25:33.

foreign poll sinchts sometimes we work with our European partners

:25:34.:25:38.

sometimes we work with our non-European partners. It is our

:25:39.:25:41.

choice to pull sovereign trito work together. G, we move on to our foirt

:25:42.:25:48.

area. We hear a lot in this country about MPs expenses. Snted the real

:25:49.:25:55.

scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't the real scandal, the MEPs gravy

:25:56.:26:01.

train? You all have your snouts The trough? I don't think so. There is

:26:02.:26:07.

transpancy. The way we use our expenses is online and anyone can

:26:08.:26:11.

ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'

:26:12.:26:17.

allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in

:26:18.:26:20.

Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About

:26:21.:26:27.

5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the

:26:28.:26:31.

Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.

:26:32.:26:39.

But we voted for economy flutes We voted for European Parliament policy

:26:40.:26:44.

of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.

:26:45.:26:48.

They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand

:26:49.:26:53.

their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the

:26:54.:26:57.

gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance

:26:58.:27:03.

because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are

:27:04.:27:07.

there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim

:27:08.:27:11.

the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their

:27:12.:27:14.

MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for

:27:15.:27:20.

today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I

:27:21.:27:24.

have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going

:27:25.:27:29.

in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.

:27:30.:27:37.

-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick

:27:38.:27:42.

O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls

:27:43.:27:47.

today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip

:27:48.:27:52.

crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'

:27:53.:27:57.

fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.

:27:58.:28:01.

Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and

:28:02.:28:06.

he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling

:28:07.:28:09.

other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I

:28:10.:28:16.

have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not

:28:17.:28:19.

entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and

:28:20.:28:24.

the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue

:28:25.:28:28.

the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain

:28:29.:28:31.

out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work

:28:32.:28:38.

Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political

:28:39.:28:42.

party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way

:28:43.:28:48.

before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of

:28:49.:28:52.

course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should

:28:53.:28:56.

do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates

:28:57.:29:00.

and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling

:29:01.:29:04.

out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry

:29:05.:29:09.

found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week

:29:10.:29:13.

in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called

:29:14.:29:18.

the police fascists. These people aren't here.

:29:19.:29:24.

I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let

:29:25.:29:28.

him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent

:29:29.:29:32.

down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but

:29:33.:29:37.

now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad

:29:38.:29:44.

you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they

:29:45.:29:49.

are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in

:29:50.:29:55.

all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is

:29:56.:30:01.

a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on

:30:02.:30:07.

expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every

:30:08.:30:10.

year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives

:30:11.:30:14.

also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to

:30:15.:30:17.

investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make

:30:18.:30:20.

each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign

:30:21.:30:26.

a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.

:30:27.:30:30.

Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you

:30:31.:30:34.

confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is

:30:35.:30:40.

about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about

:30:41.:30:45.

the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's

:30:46.:30:50.

regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund

:30:51.:30:54.

to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most

:30:55.:30:58.

destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I

:30:59.:31:02.

tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from

:31:03.:31:05.

claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these

:31:06.:31:08.

European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.

:31:09.:31:19.

Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to

:31:20.:31:26.

make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the

:31:27.:31:30.

Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European

:31:31.:31:34.

elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers

:31:35.:31:39.

bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free

:31:40.:31:45.

banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people

:31:46.:31:52.

are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build

:31:53.:31:55.

a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she

:31:56.:32:02.

right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,

:32:03.:32:08.

thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of

:32:09.:32:11.

the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards

:32:12.:32:16.

getting a new sustainable world. It is the political will to use these

:32:17.:32:20.

powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour

:32:21.:32:24.

reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the

:32:25.:32:28.

budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those

:32:29.:32:32.

things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open. But

:32:33.:32:39.

against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more

:32:40.:32:44.

treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah

:32:45.:32:49.

Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that

:32:50.:32:54.

should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is

:32:55.:33:00.

concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create

:33:01.:33:04.

more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our

:33:05.:33:10.

exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and

:33:11.:33:15.

Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU

:33:16.:33:19.

legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers

:33:20.:33:27.

or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it

:33:28.:33:36.

slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be

:33:37.:33:39.

funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie

:33:40.:33:45.

me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This

:33:46.:33:50.

is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on

:33:51.:33:54.

things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not

:33:55.:33:58.

have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to

:33:59.:34:03.

join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to

:34:04.:34:12.

still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to

:34:13.:34:16.

join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now

:34:17.:34:20.

is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has

:34:21.:34:28.

advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not

:34:29.:34:32.

in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our

:34:33.:34:37.

relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we

:34:38.:34:42.

left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek

:34:43.:34:46.

partnership in specific serious. I'd tell you what, can I just say...

:34:47.:34:51.

Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are

:34:52.:34:54.

the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke

:34:55.:34:59.

trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on

:35:00.:35:03.

services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export

:35:04.:35:09.

market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would

:35:10.:35:13.

have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I

:35:14.:35:18.

read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free

:35:19.:35:23.

trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand

:35:24.:35:28.

no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr

:35:29.:35:34.

business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that

:35:35.:35:38.

and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any

:35:39.:35:43.

say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is

:35:44.:35:48.

enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:

:35:49.:35:55.

Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of

:35:56.:36:02.

powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus

:36:03.:36:09.

driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because

:36:10.:36:12.

he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said

:36:13.:36:15.

to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that

:36:16.:36:19.

something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not

:36:20.:36:23.

yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout

:36:24.:36:26.

mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European

:36:27.:36:31.

treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we

:36:32.:36:37.

did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the

:36:38.:36:41.

European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They

:36:42.:36:46.

say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we

:36:47.:36:49.

are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain

:36:50.:36:54.

because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now

:36:55.:37:05.

have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are

:37:06.:37:11.

allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People

:37:12.:37:16.

should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking

:37:17.:37:20.

because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.

:37:21.:37:26.

I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to

:37:27.:37:29.

debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're

:37:30.:37:32.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who

:37:33.:37:35.

leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in twenty

:37:36.:37:36.

minutes, Scotland. Coming up here in twenty

:37:37.:37:47.

Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coling up on the Sunday Politics in the

:37:48.:37:54.

south`west. The row about the cost of a new

:37:55.:37:57.

nuclear power station at Hinkley Point.

:37:58.:38:03.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Labour peer Ann

:38:04.:38:06.

Mallalieu, and the Lib Dem LP Adrian Sanders. Welcome both of yot to the

:38:07.:38:08.

programme. Let's start with the state of the

:38:09.:38:13.

roads. This week it was revdaled the region's councils are shellhng out

:38:14.:38:16.

nearly ?1 million a year in compensation to people injured

:38:17.:38:20.

because of potholes. A BBC freedom of information request showdd that

:38:21.:38:23.

Torbay had had to pay out ?400, 00 in the last four years. Adrhen, that

:38:24.:38:36.

is unsustainable, isn't it? There is no real answer to this. Shotld it

:38:37.:38:42.

have been 800,000, 100,000, it reflects injuries that people

:38:43.:38:47.

suffered who, quite rightly, sued for compensation. Can counchls do

:38:48.:38:50.

more to reduce their chances of being taken to court? Yes, they can,

:38:51.:38:55.

if they have the resources. If they have the money. They have an amount

:38:56.:39:02.

of money available for this, but it doesn't go anywhere near covering

:39:03.:39:05.

the cost of filling on all the holes. The local government

:39:06.:39:10.

authority says the 200 millhon offered is a drop in the ocdan

:39:11.:39:14.

compared with costs which they say are ?10 billion. That is thdir

:39:15.:39:20.

answer. And I do think we whll see a proper answer to this until we have

:39:21.:39:24.

better times and there is more money available. What do you think, Ann

:39:25.:39:29.

Mallalieu? Should more be done about this? In an ideal world but I agree

:39:30.:39:33.

there is in the money to do it as one would like. What does strprise

:39:34.:39:39.

me is the degree all lack of prioritisation. I can understand if

:39:40.:39:42.

there is a problem, they should go down and deal with that immddiately,

:39:43.:39:49.

but a number of our roads and motorways, used by hundreds of

:39:50.:39:55.

thousands of people are disgraceful. They should be put right at the

:39:56.:40:00.

earliest possible opportunity. Well, stay with us because we havd plenty

:40:01.:40:02.

more to discuss. Labour announced this week ht would

:40:03.:40:05.

bring back a minister for the south`west as part of plans to

:40:06.:40:08.

devolve more power to the rdgions plans. Ed Miliband is promising more

:40:09.:40:12.

jobs and better wages. But one of the region's business leaders is

:40:13.:40:14.

warning the Labour plan could mean Bristol gets the lion's share of

:40:15.:40:17.

future investment. Tamsin Mdlville reports.

:40:18.:40:24.

Being a peninsula has always been a challenge when it comes to

:40:25.:40:27.

attracting investment. But this winter's weather made the south`west

:40:28.:40:32.

feel especially vulnerable. The recent floods and storms just show

:40:33.:40:35.

how interconnected we are as a peninsula and how we must work

:40:36.:40:39.

together better. And the big investments that we have sedn in the

:40:40.:40:43.

recent years, like the Wave Hub or Eden, or the Combined Universities

:40:44.:40:46.

in Cornwall, none of those would ever get started now under the local

:40:47.:40:51.

enterprise partnership regile. One of the first things the coalition

:40:52.:40:54.

did was scrap the big regional development agencies and replace

:40:55.:40:56.

them with 39 local enterprise partnerships to be the drivdrs for

:40:57.:41:02.

economic growth. Nigel Costley thinks the focus is now too narrow.

:41:03.:41:09.

They need to work together. And pack much more of a punch in Whitehall,

:41:10.:41:12.

and they need to involve more people. This month, LEPs unveiled

:41:13.:41:18.

plans for a share of a ?2 bhllion pot of government money to help grow

:41:19.:41:23.

economies. Cornwall's local enterprise partnership wants to

:41:24.:41:25.

build on the county's natur`l assets like this to create jobs, ilprove

:41:26.:41:27.

infrastructure, and encourage housing. Joe says he is one of the

:41:28.:41:34.

lucky ones. Happy in one of around 15 jobs created at this news cycle

:41:35.:41:39.

trail at Lanhydrock. There's a lot of people out there looking for

:41:40.:41:42.

them, but there's not that luch opportunity, whether it's someone

:41:43.:41:44.

like myself, who isn't really that educated, or whether it is someone

:41:45.:41:48.

who's got a degree or whatever it is. Whatever category you w`nt to

:41:49.:41:54.

put it in, there's not a lot out there. The LEP wants to cre`te

:41:55.:42:04.

thousands more jobs. One pl`n is to link with other bike trails and make

:42:05.:42:07.

nearby Bodmin Cornwall's cycling town. But it's not all about bikes.

:42:08.:42:10.

There's also hopes for improving the A30 and key roads around major

:42:11.:42:13.

towns. And investing in rail and bus project. Those involved inshst their

:42:14.:42:19.

strategy is right. It's abott looking at working with the private

:42:20.:42:23.

sector for higher value jobs. Because absolutely our prim`ry aim

:42:24.:42:26.

that is shared by all partndrs is how we increase salary levels in

:42:27.:42:34.

Cornwall. Labour was putting wages at the heart of its proposals to

:42:35.:42:37.

devolve more power to the rdgions this week. I want to explain why the

:42:38.:42:44.

cost of living crisis is such a huge challenge. I want to say whx it s

:42:45.:42:48.

happening. I want to explain why this government's approach hs

:42:49.:42:56.

inadequate. A Labour governlent would encourage plans that cross

:42:57.:42:58.

local government boundaries and double the amount of cash h`nded

:42:59.:43:01.

down from Whitehall. But business leaders in Cornwall are cautious

:43:02.:43:03.

about any moves back towards anything like the old regional

:43:04.:43:08.

development agencies, or [email protected] What I thought in the latter days of

:43:09.:43:11.

SWRDA became lost was what were the battles and who were they most

:43:12.:43:15.

fighting for? And what people in Cornwall don't want is for ht to

:43:16.:43:18.

become Bristol`centric when it doesn't have much relevance to us.

:43:19.:43:24.

And I believe the LEP has h`d more relevance. Labour has also said it

:43:25.:43:30.

would reinstate a minister for the south`west as a voice to boost the

:43:31.:43:34.

economy. But others say this is simply reinventing the wheel.

:43:35.:43:48.

Ann Mallalieu, a minister from the south`west, it sounds good, but so

:43:49.:43:54.

did localism. Can we expect to see any real change? We've got to

:43:55.:43:58.

because people are thoroughly fed up with the whole world revolvhng

:43:59.:44:02.

around London. And places ehther north or south`west feeling very

:44:03.:44:06.

isolated and left out. I thhnk there is a pot of money there which could

:44:07.:44:12.

be filtered down and a lot of it, a lot more should come down to the

:44:13.:44:16.

south`west, and the pot, and this is in my view, is a massive mistake

:44:17.:44:20.

that is about to be made with HS2. If you want to create local jobs and

:44:21.:44:25.

pull things out of the centre, you want to give people in thosd regions

:44:26.:44:28.

the money they know what nedds doing. Before we come back to that,

:44:29.:44:34.

HS2, we have encouraging figures from the IMF this week. Britain s

:44:35.:44:39.

economy is going to grow more than any other economy in the G7,

:44:40.:44:45.

overshadowing Ed Miliband's point. I think it has. It has got to be

:44:46.:44:52.

sustainable. We are by no mdans out of the woods so far. There `re some

:44:53.:44:58.

very unpleasant rumblings coming out of the east. And I think we have to

:44:59.:45:02.

look at what we do with the money we can generate now in the futtre. For

:45:03.:45:08.

too long, decisions both governments have made, the last one and this

:45:09.:45:13.

present one, they've made vdry short`term decisions resulthng from

:45:14.:45:18.

pressure of immediate media interest. I think it is important

:45:19.:45:23.

that both parties look at areas of the country which haven't h`d a fair

:45:24.:45:27.

shake of the dice. And the south`west undoubtedly is rhght I

:45:28.:45:33.

hope my party, the Labour P`rty will see that it may not have many

:45:34.:45:37.

MPs down here, but it has a lot of people who are sympathetic to many

:45:38.:45:41.

of the things they want to do. And we need some investment. Thd growth

:45:42.:45:45.

figures do indeed look good but there is this big divide between

:45:46.:45:49.

London and the regions. What is the government going to do about that? I

:45:50.:45:54.

think the MEPs have only re`lly been in existence for four years. And the

:45:55.:45:58.

Devon and Somerset one has only got its act together in the last two

:45:59.:46:02.

years, because it was delaydd because Cornwall wanted to go it

:46:03.:46:07.

alone. We have to give them time to prove themselves. In theory, the

:46:08.:46:11.

idea you can bring together unions, business, at a more localisdd level

:46:12.:46:16.

to set local priorities, is a good one. The fundamental issue hs the

:46:17.:46:20.

have a system where people bid for money, which is what we do have

:46:21.:46:22.

right now, or do you have the Ed right now, or do you have the Ed

:46:23.:46:27.

Miliband one, where you havd the money but not necessarily to every

:46:28.:46:33.

part. It is to sided by London, not by a bidding process. The south`west

:46:34.:46:37.

TUC is saying that big investments would not have got off the ground,

:46:38.:46:43.

so this system isn't working. Business leaders say that if there

:46:44.:46:49.

is a pot, it might go to Brhstol. I think the point here is what Ed

:46:50.:46:52.

Miliband is saying, which is he wants to give it to large areas and

:46:53.:46:57.

cities. There are not a lot of cities in the south`west. Btt there

:46:58.:47:02.

are a lot of cities in the North of England. I can't see that doing what

:47:03.:47:06.

Ann Mallalieu wants to do which is rectify the fact that the south`west

:47:07.:47:12.

has been missed out. Ed Milhband was saying that ?2 billion will not be

:47:13.:47:16.

enough, how much would be enough? A bigger slice of the money that is

:47:17.:47:22.

about to be wasted. And I go back to HS2. A bigger slice of that, spread

:47:23.:47:27.

around the country so that jobs are created not just along the places

:47:28.:47:32.

along the line, and we don't just create a funnel back to London,

:47:33.:47:36.

which is what I think will happen. I entirely agree but the problem is we

:47:37.:47:42.

do have a large number of L`bour MPs in the North of England who are all

:47:43.:47:45.

in favour of this, and a large number of Tory MPs in the South and

:47:46.:47:50.

East of England who are also in favour of this. It's trying to get

:47:51.:47:52.

the voice of the local people through. East Anglia, north of

:47:53.:48:00.

Scotland and the south`west. Looking at the figures for Torbay, xour

:48:01.:48:04.

constituency has the same GDP per head as Poland. There are not enough

:48:05.:48:08.

jobs and London has five tiles that GDP per head. Surely the government

:48:09.:48:13.

should be doing something drastically more? A minister for the

:48:14.:48:16.

south`west, someone who can bring money down. A minister might be very

:48:17.:48:23.

helpful. But, then again, it depends whether they have any real

:48:24.:48:28.

influence. We are doing quite well intensive getting more monex. There

:48:29.:48:36.

is the broadband money, the bypass, and the money hasn't been spent

:48:37.:48:43.

That was the same under the last government. It's only now that it is

:48:44.:48:46.

being recognised in getting some funding. If you look at it, we are

:48:47.:48:51.

London centric. The new buzzword, there is more distortion now than in

:48:52.:48:56.

the past. And certainly since the beginning of the recession. That is

:48:57.:49:00.

true. But we are in austere times, there's not enough money to go

:49:01.:49:04.

around, and yet we're getting lots more money funnelling into South

:49:05.:49:11.

Devon. ?101 million for the bypass. I will have to stop you there. We do

:49:12.:49:17.

have to move on. We can comd back to it.

:49:18.:49:20.

On Thursday, the Green Partx staged an anti`nuclear protest at Hinkley

:49:21.:49:23.

Point in Somerset. The plans for a new power station there got

:49:24.:49:26.

government approval last ye`r, but the building works are being held up

:49:27.:49:29.

by concerns about how much taxpayers' money is going in to the

:49:30.:49:34.

project. This week the European Commission began investigathng the

:49:35.:49:36.

price deal between the government and EDF Energy. John Henderson

:49:37.:49:39.

reports. Protesting against the power. Green

:49:40.:49:52.

Party activists at Hinkley Point in Somerset. It is the site for a new

:49:53.:49:57.

nuclear power station. Given approval last year, it is expected

:49:58.:50:00.

to generate 7% of the country's electricity supplied by 2024. At ?16

:50:01.:50:06.

billion it's costly and controversial. The UK government

:50:07.:50:11.

guaranteed power prices frol the plant for 35 years. Prices that are

:50:12.:50:17.

almost twice the current wholesale cost of electricity. This is an

:50:18.:50:24.

inappropriate use of state `id. The government came to power saxing it

:50:25.:50:27.

would only promote nuclear hf it could be done with no public

:50:28.:50:30.

subsidy. And, yet, it is perfectly clear there is a massive public

:50:31.:50:33.

subsidy going into new nucldar at Hinkley. The debate at Hinkley isn't

:50:34.:50:36.

the only time the region has seen protests over nuclear power. People

:50:37.:50:41.

in towns and villages have taken to the streets. In the early 80s,

:50:42.:50:46.

protesters were out in forcd when the central electricity gendrating

:50:47.:50:48.

board was looking for a possible nuclear power station in Cornwall.

:50:49.:50:56.

In the end, the site wasn't viable. But the protests led to the

:50:57.:50:59.

country's first commercial wind farm. They were going to put a

:51:00.:51:05.

nuclear power station in Cornwall. My wife was very much against it

:51:06.:51:08.

indeed. I always say you can't say you can't have something. You can

:51:09.:51:12.

only say what you want instdad. So it was blowing an absolute gale at

:51:13.:51:16.

the time. She said, can't you do it from wind? I said, I'll find out.

:51:17.:51:22.

And I found out. The wind f`rm here has recently been upgraded to

:51:23.:51:27.

produce power for 7,000 homds. Hinkley C will power nearly six

:51:28.:51:31.

million homes. It would takd 35 wind farms like this to match the

:51:32.:51:37.

power output of Hinkley C. But nuclear comes with risks. Chernobyl

:51:38.:51:40.

and Fukushima are examples of the dangers. Despite this, some in

:51:41.:51:47.

Cornwall say if it was a choice between wind and nuclear, it would

:51:48.:51:52.

be the latter. One nuclear power station compared with the ntmber of

:51:53.:51:55.

turbines going up across Cornwall is no comparison. When it comes to

:51:56.:52:01.

nuclear policy, all three Westminster parties are in favour.

:52:02.:52:06.

The Lib Dems signing up in ` dramatic U`turn last year.

:52:07.:52:10.

Yesterday, I did say I changed my mind. I've been changing it over the

:52:11.:52:13.

last few years primarily because of the threat of climate changd. Back

:52:14.:52:18.

at Hinkley, with contracts `lready signed, the Greens may have to

:52:19.:52:22.

resign themselves to a new reactor. But, for them, nuclear is still a

:52:23.:52:32.

disaster waiting to happen. Joining us to discuss this, we have

:52:33.:52:36.

Windy Miller from the Green Party. Welcome. Your party would lhke to

:52:37.:52:42.

see an end to nuclear energx. Where is the 20% that nuclear energy

:52:43.:52:46.

provides going to come from? Indeed, the main point is that nucldar power

:52:47.:52:53.

is unnecessary, it is an economic and unsafe. So, for instancd, we

:52:54.:53:00.

could save 35% of our energx use if we put measures in for energy

:53:01.:53:03.

efficiency, and, yet, what we had last year was the Energy Secretary

:53:04.:53:07.

at European level arguing against energy efficiency measures. Energy

:53:08.:53:15.

efficiency measures like wh`t? Through installation, through mainly

:53:16.:53:20.

also decentralise sources of power, so, we lose a massive amount through

:53:21.:53:24.

the idea of a national power grid, whereas it has been shown in Germany

:53:25.:53:33.

how many community energy sxstems can produce energy without losing it

:53:34.:53:39.

through the transmission. And it also benefits the local comlunity.

:53:40.:53:43.

Germany is an interesting example because they have invested, since

:53:44.:53:49.

Fukushima, heavily in renew`bles, 25% now. But prices of electricity

:53:50.:53:53.

have gone through the roof `nd manufacturers might leave and go to

:53:54.:53:56.

Eastern Europe. They are looking at coal`fired power stations again

:53:57.:54:01.

Indeed, you can say it will be a transition. The thing to be`r in

:54:02.:54:05.

mind, we might have been lucky at Hinckley. We were not so lucky in

:54:06.:54:11.

1957, the year I was born, or channel ball, or Fukushima. It is an

:54:12.:54:15.

ongoing disaster there which is going to cost as much as thd total

:54:16.:54:18.

cost of building or nuclear power stations to date. And they cannot

:54:19.:54:25.

even get near the nuclear rdactor. I use still hopeful that Hinckley

:54:26.:54:29.

although the deal has been signed, are you hopeful you can stop it I

:54:30.:54:34.

think as the truth comes out about the terrible cost and burden that

:54:35.:54:41.

nuclear power can give to a country, let alone causing birth defdcts and

:54:42.:54:47.

stillbirths, as ensuring noble. . I am going to stop you. Adrian

:54:48.:54:52.

Sanders, the Lib Dems have done a U`turn. They were in the sale

:54:53.:54:56.

position as Wendy and the Green Party a year ago, and suddenly last

:54:57.:55:01.

year, they changed their mind. Certainly, in coalition, we have

:55:02.:55:06.

signed up to Hinckley. Personally, I am very much with Wendy on this

:55:07.:55:11.

issue in that if Germany can phase out all its nuclear power stations

:55:12.:55:16.

by 2022, I don't see any re`son why we can't. We can do far mord... I

:55:17.:55:22.

think there is another side to this. We can do far more in terms of

:55:23.:55:26.

recycling, far more in terms of hybrid energy. But your party has

:55:27.:55:35.

changed its mind and has signed up. The Parliamentary party in coalition

:55:36.:55:39.

hands. The party itself in terms of its policy`making has not changed

:55:40.:55:44.

its mind. That is the worry. Are you worried you will lose votes because

:55:45.:55:48.

of this? In coalition, you have to find a compromise to get sole of

:55:49.:55:51.

your policies through, and sometimes you have to play loot some of your

:55:52.:55:58.

policies as well. People will judge the balance as to how well we have

:55:59.:56:03.

done. Ann Mallalieu, you ard signed up to nuclear with Labour, how does

:56:04.:56:09.

this sit with Ed Miliband's promise with freezing prices for fudl and

:56:10.:56:12.

energy? This will be very expensive and we've promised to doubld the

:56:13.:56:16.

price per unit so it is profitable for EDF. I've got concerns `bout the

:56:17.:56:23.

price, first of all. I think everybody has. I've got concerns

:56:24.:56:26.

about safety, which have bedn expressed already, but I want the

:56:27.:56:31.

lights to stay on. And if wd do not have a mix of ways of providing us

:56:32.:56:34.

with the end`mac `` with thd enormous amount of energy wd need,

:56:35.:56:38.

those lights will not stay on and some of us can remember when we have

:56:39.:56:42.

a three day week, and spells when the electricity was cut. Th`t is

:56:43.:56:46.

nothing compared to what wotld happen if we didn't go ahead now and

:56:47.:56:50.

produced truly efficient me`ns of production for the future. We have

:56:51.:56:54.

been delaying for far too long. Labour was responsible for that Of

:56:55.:57:00.

course it was. I come on and say my party has made mistakes every time!

:57:01.:57:07.

My party is quite different than the party members and individual MPs and

:57:08.:57:10.

those in government. Yukon to get away from the fact that the Lib Dems

:57:11.:57:15.

in coalition have jettisoned quite a number of what seemed to me to be

:57:16.:57:22.

firm tenets of their belief. We are 57 MPs in coalition with 300

:57:23.:57:26.

Tories. That is what happens. You are quite happy to take the jobs,

:57:27.:57:29.

yet you're not happy with the policies. We have improved hncome

:57:30.:57:34.

tax, we have managed to help lower paid people, we have expanddd..

:57:35.:57:44.

Just to jump in, the coalithon agreement gave your party and opt

:57:45.:57:49.

out. You didn't have to takd it It AV didn't have to join at all. It is

:57:50.:57:55.

a scare tactic to say keep the lights on. It really is. We can do

:57:56.:58:06.

wave power, hydroelectric, solar, wind. Why didn't you take the opt

:58:07.:58:13.

out? You would have to ask Dd Miliband. He worked with his Tory

:58:14.:58:18.

colleagues who are less keen on green taxes. So Ed Davey is

:58:19.:58:24.

responsible? At the end of the day, he will take the rap.

:58:25.:58:27.

Now our regular round`up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:58:28.:58:34.

Crime figures show domestic violence has risen by almost 20% in Devon and

:58:35.:58:39.

Cornwall but the Police Comlissioner said he didn't fully understand why.

:58:40.:58:46.

Neither my office, nor the police, nor Her Majesty's Inspector of

:58:47.:58:48.

Constabulary, do at the momdnt understand the increase in rapes and

:58:49.:58:55.

sexual crimes. Residents at Feniton claimed a

:58:56.:58:58.

victory for people power as plans for more than 200 new homes were

:58:59.:59:06.

turned down by a planning inspector. The fight against the closure of

:59:07.:59:10.

Great Torrington Hospital continued. A parish poll saw over 1,000 people

:59:11.:59:15.

voting to reopen it. The 24/7 care you get in our cottage hosphtal

:59:16.:59:21.

can't be replicated anywherd else. Exeter's new incinerator took in its

:59:22.:59:26.

first rubbish. And graffiti legalised in West Dorset. It's

:59:27.:59:31.

endorsed. It's legal. And it's backed by council members.

:59:32.:59:44.

So, let's look at housing. Ht is incredible, isn't it? The t`lk for

:59:45.:59:51.

more housing, and developments like that have still been turned down by

:59:52.:59:56.

the planning expect it. I think people want to see thriving

:59:57.:00:01.

communities, and they realise they need more houses. Equally, they

:00:02.:00:05.

don't want to see places sw`mped and consumed, and that seemed to me to

:00:06.:00:11.

be a sensible solution by the planning inspector. I hope there

:00:12.:00:14.

will be more developer 's allowed, developer 's that do not sw`mp

:00:15.:00:21.

towns. We get too hung up on a numbers game on the number of

:00:22.:00:25.

houses. We ought to be talkhng about the type of housing that medts local

:00:26.:00:29.

need. You might be able to do that with fewer houses being built than

:00:30.:00:35.

sometimes imposing it. That'll have to be topic of discussion.

:00:36.:00:36.

That's the Sunday Politics hn risk. We have run out of time. --

:00:37.:00:40.

particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.

:00:41.:00:50.

The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave

:00:51.:00:52.

Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in

:00:53.:01:03.

the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have

:01:04.:01:08.

just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the

:01:09.:01:13.

argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of

:01:14.:01:16.

people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about

:01:17.:01:20.

things that most people do not know much about. They know very little

:01:21.:01:23.

about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to

:01:24.:01:31.

do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of

:01:32.:01:37.

them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out

:01:38.:01:41.

and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,

:01:42.:01:49.

the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty

:01:50.:01:53.

much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they

:01:54.:01:57.

feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd

:01:58.:02:02.

agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try

:02:03.:02:08.

to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out

:02:09.:02:12.

there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very

:02:13.:02:17.

exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions

:02:18.:02:21.

for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not

:02:22.:02:27.

know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is

:02:28.:02:32.

an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for

:02:33.:02:36.

many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took

:02:37.:02:38.

off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you

:02:39.:02:45.

wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual

:02:46.:02:49.

referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free

:02:50.:02:53.

movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did

:02:54.:02:56.

learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the

:02:57.:03:04.

outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate

:03:05.:03:10.

is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the

:03:11.:03:14.

other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn

:03:15.:03:19.

did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40

:03:20.:03:23.

came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would

:03:24.:03:26.

expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to

:03:27.:03:30.

agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think

:03:31.:03:35.

the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised

:03:36.:03:39.

debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors

:03:40.:03:42.

believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not

:03:43.:03:46.

actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all

:03:47.:03:52.

right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the

:03:53.:03:57.

battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.

:03:58.:04:03.

Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are

:04:04.:04:06.

closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not

:04:07.:04:12.

come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this

:04:13.:04:17.

stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side

:04:18.:04:22.

and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your

:04:23.:04:28.

houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into

:04:29.:04:34.

the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be

:04:35.:04:39.

better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,

:04:40.:04:44.

but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences I

:04:45.:04:49.

think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster

:04:50.:04:52.

that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come

:04:53.:04:58.

first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr

:04:59.:05:02.

village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that

:05:03.:05:05.

despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the

:05:06.:05:11.

overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget

:05:12.:05:17.

blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership

:05:18.:05:23.

is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in

:05:24.:05:26.

the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron

:05:27.:05:31.

comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it

:05:32.:05:36.

headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said

:05:37.:05:41.

that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see

:05:42.:05:47.

them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the

:05:48.:05:53.

sun will be about David Cameron s personal leadership and his grip on

:05:54.:05:57.

the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes

:05:58.:06:01.

around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The

:06:02.:06:08.

Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in

:06:09.:06:12.

the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was

:06:13.:06:19.

the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was

:06:20.:06:25.

because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when

:06:26.:06:32.

he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often

:06:33.:06:38.

that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.

:06:39.:06:43.

It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to

:06:44.:06:47.

be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is

:06:48.:06:52.

fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to

:06:53.:06:55.

do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have

:06:56.:06:59.

to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to

:07:00.:07:05.

where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the

:07:06.:07:09.

Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to

:07:10.:07:15.

happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg

:07:16.:07:20.

leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this

:07:21.:07:24.

Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick

:07:25.:07:28.

Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems

:07:29.:07:31.

tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the

:07:32.:07:35.

only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put

:07:36.:07:38.

it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a

:07:39.:07:43.

desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a

:07:44.:07:46.

candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto

:07:47.:07:50.

power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,

:07:51.:07:56.

and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is

:07:57.:08:02.

clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further

:08:03.:08:05.

away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But

:08:06.:08:12.

he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal

:08:13.:08:16.

attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for

:08:17.:08:21.

43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been

:08:22.:08:27.

bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots

:08:28.:08:32.

activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are

:08:33.:08:37.

despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists who

:08:38.:08:40.

they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that

:08:41.:08:44.

you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a

:08:45.:08:48.

Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish

:08:49.:08:54.

constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great

:08:55.:09:01.

offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It

:09:02.:09:05.

is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet

:09:06.:09:08.

another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine

:09:09.:09:13.

counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very

:09:14.:09:20.

embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the

:09:21.:09:22.

threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered

:09:23.:09:26.

at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know

:09:27.:09:32.

what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the

:09:33.:09:35.

case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it

:09:36.:09:39.

is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively

:09:40.:09:45.

weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS

:09:46.:09:49.

uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a

:09:50.:09:53.

high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the

:09:54.:10:01.

deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to

:10:02.:10:06.

begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.

:10:07.:10:11.

And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that

:10:12.:10:14.

if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,

:10:15.:10:17.

they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly

:10:18.:10:21.

with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is

:10:22.:10:24.

any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a

:10:25.:10:27.

high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,

:10:28.:10:34.

that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very

:10:35.:10:37.

bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can

:10:38.:10:42.

see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they

:10:43.:10:47.

are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on

:10:48.:10:55.

bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his

:10:56.:10:58.

accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot

:10:59.:11:01.

help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in

:11:02.:11:06.

high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy

:11:07.:11:11.

Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you

:11:12.:11:14.

are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.

:11:15.:11:19.

All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed

:11:20.:11:23.

to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence

:11:24.:11:25.

matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this

:11:26.:11:29.

list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five

:11:30.:11:33.

or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the

:11:34.:11:36.

police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those

:11:37.:11:39.

because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,

:11:40.:11:43.

being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on

:11:44.:11:48.

Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom

:11:49.:11:53.

and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do

:11:54.:11:59.

not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not

:12:00.:12:04.

that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and

:12:05.:12:07.

Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member

:12:08.:12:14.

of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is

:12:15.:12:19.

that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write

:12:20.:12:23.

themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and

:12:24.:12:29.

unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom

:12:30.:12:33.

and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave

:12:34.:12:37.

after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I

:12:38.:12:41.

think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you

:12:42.:12:46.

get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on

:12:47.:12:52.

them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers

:12:53.:12:58.

of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC

:12:59.:14:02.

In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of

:14:03.:14:04.

At times he's interesting, at times he's very funny,

:14:05.:14:12.

My life is a very happy life and I'm a very happy person.

:14:13.:14:20.

Will you feel nervous when this is unveiled?

:14:21.:14:22.

I suppose being the centre of attention but for ever.

:14:23.:14:26.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew chairs a special debate ahead of the European elections with representatives from UKIP, Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.


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