08/06/2014 Sunday Politics South West


08/06/2014

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David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

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over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

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And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

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We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live

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Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

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David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

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But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

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Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

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And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

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a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

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Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics in the South West:

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Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?

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And with me our panel of top political journalists,

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who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

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and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

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This morning's political news is dominated

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by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

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The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

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Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

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The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

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investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham

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where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

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Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

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was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

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He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

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In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

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"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

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Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

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An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

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Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

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Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning

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this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

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The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

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The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s

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put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

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Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

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has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

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Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

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13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

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act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

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and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

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conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

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leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

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vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

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the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

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She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

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interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

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differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

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tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

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Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

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politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

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deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

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replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

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ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

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ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

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Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

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Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

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Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

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criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

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Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

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fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

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separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

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view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

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extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

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criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

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government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

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introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

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and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

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home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

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the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

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used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

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swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

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those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

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would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

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the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11

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when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

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warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

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is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

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Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

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Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

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their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

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in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

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infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

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resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

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to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

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There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

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four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

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that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

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for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

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stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

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like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

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Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

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leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

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overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

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want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

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themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

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makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

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be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

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curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

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education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

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segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

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segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling

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Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

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equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of

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gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

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tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

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do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

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ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

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tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

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think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

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inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

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be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

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sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

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as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

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Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

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were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

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were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

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academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

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Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

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standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

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get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

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to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

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which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

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fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

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desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

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increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

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Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

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gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

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since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

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note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

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head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

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what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

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fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

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schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

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mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

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for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

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dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

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schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

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Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

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multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

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education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this

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morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,

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the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.

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In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools

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and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed

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this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and

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this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you

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fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get

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together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There

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are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city

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council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning

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have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in

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schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have

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a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for

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four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to

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account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils

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in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young

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people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do

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you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that

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Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was

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building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We

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have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard

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Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate

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about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,

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the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do

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to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must

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with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on

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stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the

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most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -

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from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described

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Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the

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problems of the next five years . But with the German Chancellor

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Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that

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Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7

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summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people

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running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change

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and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads

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of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what

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I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed

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in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering

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that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away

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from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.

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We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is

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a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.

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He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.

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And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin

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Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives

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and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.

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The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new

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Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out

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gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to

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have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a

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high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next

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three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the

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president of the European Council after the proposal of the European

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Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in

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the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr

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Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going

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to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us

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one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine

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Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have

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a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need

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radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave

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us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in

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public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks

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campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the

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European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent

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a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

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quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

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First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

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against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

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who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

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group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

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financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

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financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

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works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

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Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But

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we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of

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this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the

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winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs

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LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority

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in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It

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is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament

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has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by

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majority in the light of the European elections after

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consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a

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candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a

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majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the

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Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.

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I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European

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elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the

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elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats

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in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking

:21:07.:21:10.

part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the

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United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German

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socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a

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nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with

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hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a

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democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to

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take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if

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I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of

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the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to

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Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives

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have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they

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have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form

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of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr

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Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU

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exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we

:22:28.:22:32.

want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious

:22:33.:22:35.

reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to

:22:36.:22:40.

vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,

:22:41.:22:47.

somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We

:22:48.:22:52.

need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the

:22:53.:22:55.

European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of

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federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in

:22:59.:23:02.

Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to

:23:03.:23:08.

take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the

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publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.

:23:15.:23:20.

We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If

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enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in

:23:27.:23:30.

the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,

:23:31.:23:37.

would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected

:23:38.:23:42.

by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the

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European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted

:23:47.:23:49.

pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist

:23:50.:23:53.

thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe

:23:54.:24:05.

which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not

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want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state

:24:12.:24:15.

This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better

:24:16.:24:18.

governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to

:24:19.:24:23.

become better, to change our programme in that question. That

:24:24.:24:28.

should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for

:24:29.:24:35.

that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to

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be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are

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matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent

:24:44.:24:49.

candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British

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commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election

:24:58.:25:01.

-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.

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Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European

:25:08.:25:10.

They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs

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and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.

:25:17.:25:19.

What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body

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which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission

:25:23.:25:25.

This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They

:25:26.:25:38.

didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes

:25:39.:25:44.

They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once

:25:45.:25:48.

in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,

:25:49.:25:52.

in UKIP, and that is rather the drink like capers, sound like capers

:25:53.:26:08.

-- -- sound like kippers, but they are not. The name and the logo were

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displayed on this banner when the party launched its campaign. UKIP

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suggest the look, the wording and the inclusion of UK in now confused

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voters, and are looking at rewriting such a wrong. The way that seats are

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allocated in a European election under a proportional representation

:26:32.:26:36.

system is using this formula. It was invented by a Belgian mathematician

:26:37.:26:41.

in 1878 and it is essentially this. When all of the votes have been

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tallied up, the one with the most seats gets the first MEPC in a

:26:49.:26:52.

region. The others are allocated using votes cast divided by the

:26:53.:26:58.

number of seats gained plus one -- first MEP seat in a region. UKIP

:26:59.:27:04.

were concerned with South West and London. There they say, when the

:27:05.:27:09.

last MEP seats were being allocated, if everyone who had voted for an

:27:10.:27:13.

independence from Europe had meant to vote for UKIP and you tallied

:27:14.:27:17.

their votes up, and added them to UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in

:27:18.:27:23.

each region and the greens would have lost them. Whether you can

:27:24.:27:29.

prove that voters did that by mistake is a very different matter.

:27:30.:27:36.

UKIP may have to just chalk it up to experience. It has happened before,

:27:37.:27:40.

back in the European elections of 1994. Then in England under the

:27:41.:27:45.

first past the post system. This man, Richard Huggett, decided to

:27:46.:27:50.

stand as a little Democrat and polled a significant number of

:27:51.:27:54.

votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate at the time is now an MP.

:27:55.:28:00.

Many people voted and afterwards realised that they had bubbly voted

:28:01.:28:07.

for -- probably voted for a little Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as

:28:08.:28:11.

they had been intending to do - bubbly voted for a literal Democrat

:28:12.:28:16.

-- probably voted. Mr Sanders got some consolation In

:28:17.:28:30.

1998, laws came into rule on so-called spoiler tactics and the

:28:31.:28:32.

Electoral Commission was established. The Electoral

:28:33.:28:35.

Commission are based on the seventh floor of this building and they did

:28:36.:28:38.

look into this issue prior to voting. They have given us a

:28:39.:28:41.

statement that reveals the conclusion they came to, part of

:28:42.:28:46.

which says, we decided that the name of the party, and its description

:28:47.:28:51.

are sufficiently different to those registered by the UK Independence

:28:52.:28:56.

Party, UKIP, to mean, in our opinion, that voters were not likely

:28:57.:29:00.

to be confused if they appeared on the same ballot paper. Pretty

:29:01.:29:07.

conclusive stuff. Back at the pub, were an independence from Europe

:29:08.:29:11.

just being crafty, or do UKIP need to wake up and smell the flowers? We

:29:12.:29:18.

attack them in all areas. An independent study for Anglo

:29:19.:29:19.

Netherlands because I was involved in the Dutch -- with the Dutch

:29:20.:29:24.

member of Parliament and the description was UK Independence now,

:29:25.:29:30.

nobody has a monopoly on the word independence. I have been fighting

:29:31.:29:35.

for independence since I started in 1994, before I joined UKIP. The

:29:36.:29:41.

party tell me they will stand again at the general election next year.

:29:42.:29:44.

The ironies not lost on them or the major parties of UKIP complaining

:29:45.:29:50.

that a smaller party has been taking votes of them.

:29:51.:29:59.

Joining me now to discuss this story is Gawain Towler.

:30:00.:30:02.

He's the UKIP candidate for the South West region, who failed to get

:30:03.:30:06.

And in our Bristol studios is the victorious Green MEP for

:30:07.:30:10.

How many of the 23,000 votes that were cast for the Independence party

:30:11.:30:24.

were meant for you? Impossible to tell. I want to congratulate Molly

:30:25.:30:29.

for getting elected. They are the breaks. I do not think there is a

:30:30.:30:34.

purpose in complaining about boats that are cast. Do you think you

:30:35.:30:47.

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look at the

:30:48.:30:49.

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look boats for parties

:30:50.:30:51.

people have not heard of and those with a long tradition that people

:30:52.:30:57.

have heard of. I do not think there is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled

:30:58.:31:04.

ballot papers, the amount of people who had voted at the top and the

:31:05.:31:10.

bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I

:31:11.:31:15.

want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is

:31:16.:31:30.

said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange

:31:31.:31:37.

for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than

:31:38.:31:44.

me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally

:31:45.:31:50.

been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been

:31:51.:31:55.

voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected

:31:56.:32:00.

anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What

:32:01.:32:04.

would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for

:32:05.:32:13.

her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions

:32:14.:32:17.

to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat

:32:18.:32:23.

for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share

:32:24.:32:30.

of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If

:32:31.:32:34.

he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could

:32:35.:32:39.

stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said

:32:40.:32:43.

we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and

:32:44.:32:50.

that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the

:32:51.:32:53.

Sunday Politics, where you were well represented. Was it a problem for

:32:54.:33:04.

UKIP in other parts of the country? Only in London. What do you think

:33:05.:33:19.

happened there? Very much the same. I do not think there is any doubt,

:33:20.:33:23.

the number of people we have had getting in touch saying, I am really

:33:24.:33:28.

sorry, I made a mess, that they voted for the wrong party. They are

:33:29.:33:32.

the breaks. Politics is politics. What I would like to see and what is

:33:33.:33:37.

reasonable, and I hope Molly would agree, there needs to be a reform -

:33:38.:33:43.

a serious reform of the Electoral Commission. There is no appeal

:33:44.:33:50.

process. They say it is not confusing. Lets see if she thinks

:33:51.:33:57.

that. I make it a policy never to agree with UKIP. What is important

:33:58.:34:01.

to note, if you look at the votes and the way the votes fell out and

:34:02.:34:04.

the seats fell out in the south-west, it is difficult for an

:34:05.:34:09.

Electoral Commission to turn boats into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote

:34:10.:34:15.

and 33% of the seats. For them, the system worked very well in the

:34:16.:34:22.

south-west. Nationally, Greens did not get represented as the vote

:34:23.:34:26.

share would require. That is because you get very small number of seats

:34:27.:34:30.

in the different regions and you have to reach a high threshold. The

:34:31.:34:34.

Green Party has a right to complain about the level of seats we have

:34:35.:34:39.

ended up with. White rapper you have complaints about the Electoral

:34:40.:34:46.

Commission? We need to move to a proportional system for elections

:34:47.:34:50.

generally. If we poll around 7% 8%, we should be looking at having 0,

:34:51.:34:54.

40 seats in the national legislature. We need to consider

:34:55.:34:59.

proportional representation for national elections. Do you accept

:35:00.:35:04.

the ballot paper may have confused some people? I think what happened

:35:05.:35:08.

is that some people in UKIP were very worried. Worried about the

:35:09.:35:15.

rightward move of UKIP and the authoritarian leadership of Nigel

:35:16.:35:19.

Farage. He set up a separate party. That is what happens in politics,

:35:20.:35:24.

particularly when parties are led by demagogues and are not focused on

:35:25.:35:35.

Democratic policy. Do you have any legal redress to this? None

:35:36.:35:40.

whatsoever. Have you had legal advice? I am told there is no

:35:41.:35:49.

redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly does not agree with UKIP on anything

:35:50.:35:53.

so, if we say the sun rises in the morning, she probably will disagree

:35:54.:35:59.

with that. If, at the next election, there is a party called the Grown

:36:00.:36:07.

Party, will she then complain? There needs to be some level of

:36:08.:36:11.

accountability and, without that, one wonders what is going on. We

:36:12.:36:18.

have an organisation with enormous and important power and influence

:36:19.:36:21.

which is setup to stop this of thing going on. It has failed. Not has it

:36:22.:36:29.

has failed. Not present served in Tower Hamlets and there have been

:36:30.:36:32.

massive problems with postal votes. It is failing on almost everything

:36:33.:36:38.

it is supposed to do. Just to go back for a final point from Molly.

:36:39.:36:43.

Should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of the Electoral

:36:44.:36:48.

Commission? You need to have an authoritative body that makes

:36:49.:36:51.

decisions in this area and we have the Electoral Commission. It is

:36:52.:36:55.

about being sore losers on the part of UKIP. I am delighted to represent

:36:56.:37:01.

people in the South West. Should there be a right of appeal or not?

:37:02.:37:07.

You need an authoritative body and the Electoral Commission is that. I

:37:08.:37:10.

do not think it should have a right to appeal.

:37:11.:37:12.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:13.:37:17.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be discussing extremism

:37:18.:37:33.

Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics in the South West:

:37:34.:37:37.

The price of beef and a warning regions like ours could fall behind

:37:38.:37:40.

Transport links outside London are on the agenda.

:37:41.:37:44.

The South West has been described as chronically underfunded.

:37:45.:37:46.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by two former MPs but

:37:47.:37:49.

still very much active politicians ` the Lib Dem peer John Burnett and

:37:50.:37:52.

I want that talk about the broader political picture, John, we have had

:37:53.:38:05.

a catastrophic result for the Liberal Democrats in the Newark

:38:06.:38:10.

by`election and a grim result in the Europe... I'm glad you can laugh!

:38:11.:38:16.

Hang on a minute! In the European elections. What is your rechpe to

:38:17.:38:24.

try to pull the party up ag`in? Let's try, without wanting to be too

:38:25.:38:28.

controversial so early in the programme, I do understand ht hasn't

:38:29.:38:33.

been a brilliant three or four months. Bad European elections, bad

:38:34.:38:37.

local elections on the same day and Newark was not good. You just

:38:38.:38:46.

managed to beat the loony c`ndidate, Nick The Flying Brick. With Newark,

:38:47.:38:55.

we had easterly last year and rather inauspicious circumstances, similar

:38:56.:38:59.

circumstances for the Conservatives, two MPs, sitting MPs, resigning in

:39:00.:39:06.

disgrace I think one would have to say. And we won in easterly and the

:39:07.:39:13.

Conservatives won last night. But that was then, this is now. We are a

:39:14.:39:17.

year from a general election. The point is a good point, I'm saying

:39:18.:39:22.

the electorate are sophisticated and they look at by`election and they

:39:23.:39:26.

decide which is the candidate who is most likely to win. It is what I

:39:27.:39:31.

call a by`election squeeze. We were like live to win, UKIP were second

:39:32.:39:36.

and so it was a choice betwden the liberals and UKIP. Yet it w`s a

:39:37.:39:41.

choice between the Conservatives, UKIP and in both circumstances the

:39:42.:39:46.

sitting candidates' party prevailed. We take some, where we have sitting

:39:47.:39:52.

MPs, I think we are... We are in a better position than a lot of people

:39:53.:39:58.

say. We have one now ex`Libdral Democrat peer, Lord Oakeshott who

:39:59.:40:02.

had firm views on a change of direction and leader for thd party,

:40:03.:40:06.

do you have any advice for the party as a whole, for the leader? My

:40:07.:40:10.

advice is to stick with the coalition. Not to break the bonds we

:40:11.:40:17.

have made. Not to break the decision we have made. Stick with it to the

:40:18.:40:22.

end. And I think there will be differences, which will comd to

:40:23.:40:26.

light. As they have done in the past. But stick with it. It is the

:40:27.:40:30.

country, will reward us. I'l conVinced of that on general

:40:31.:40:36.

election evening. Because wd were in a catastrophicically bad situation

:40:37.:40:39.

as a country and we put our party differences to one side for the good

:40:40.:40:48.

of country. It looks as if Conservative voters are ple`sed with

:40:49.:40:51.

their party and the people who are pleased with you, say they have

:40:52.:40:54.

propped up the Conservatives and nodded through a lot of polhcies we

:40:55.:40:59.

can't stand. Well, there have been a lot of policies that we havd put

:41:00.:41:04.

forward. Raising... You're not getting any credit for it. Ht is

:41:05.:41:09.

good of you to imply we havd done some good Liberal Democrat things.

:41:10.:41:12.

On the ground, John, the Liberal Democrats are a busted flush. The

:41:13.:41:17.

electorate for the first tile had a chance to look at you and they don't

:41:18.:41:21.

like what they have seen. I think they believe and they will believe

:41:22.:41:24.

on a general election day that we have done something for the

:41:25.:41:29.

country's good. Not for our narrow political ends and we will get

:41:30.:41:34.

credit for that. I just don't accept that. I think the people have seen

:41:35.:41:38.

and they haven't liked. I don't think it is going to come b`ck in

:41:39.:41:43.

any way. I think you are in for a grim night next May. As are the

:41:44.:41:48.

Conservatives, because people don't like that. When it comes to a choice

:41:49.:41:53.

between UKIP and the Conservatives, moat would rather go with the

:41:54.:41:58.

Conservatives. Things are not going brilliantly for Labour. At this

:41:59.:42:02.

point, we're a year from a general election, you should be doing

:42:03.:42:07.

better. New ark demographics meant we were not in a strong poshtion.

:42:08.:42:14.

The media, it has just made it a Conservative/UKIP race and people

:42:15.:42:17.

don't think that if the othdr parties have a chance. Candx, don't

:42:18.:42:24.

blame the media, you're showing an Achilles heel there. You have to

:42:25.:42:27.

look at yourself. Of course. If we look at elections in the Sotth West

:42:28.:42:31.

and in Plymouth, a city that either controlled by the Conservathves or

:42:32.:42:36.

by Labour, you have just held on to control, losing seats to UKHP. We

:42:37.:42:42.

lost one or two. Three. All right three. I'm not in that partx. It is

:42:43.:42:48.

generally head`to`head and xou should be doing well. We ard doing

:42:49.:42:52.

much better than people are giving us credit for in local crithcal

:42:53.:43:02.

elections UKIP won 149 seats we won 1,500, taking the key seats we need

:43:03.:43:06.

to win. Yes, we are going to have to work harder in Plymouth. But I think

:43:07.:43:11.

Luke and Pollard and others will win and we will have more Labour MPs in

:43:12.:43:16.

the South West come May and we are in a different position to the

:43:17.:43:20.

Liberal Democrats. Are you happy with Ed Milliband? Yes, I stpported

:43:21.:43:24.

Ed Milliband. I don't believe you should be electing your polhticians

:43:25.:43:28.

on whether you think they'rd slightly not photo generalic. ``

:43:29.:43:36.

photo genic. Would Winston Churchill have won? No, we need polithcians

:43:37.:43:40.

that will engage on the isste who have bright minds and will lead our

:43:41.:43:44.

country. I think that when the country gets to know Ed Milliband

:43:45.:43:48.

they will like what they sed. Maybe he is just not smoking a Sigg ah?

:43:49.:43:53.

Maybe not.//`` cigar. This week a cross`party grotp of MPs

:43:54.:44:00.

called on the Government to tackle the chronic underfunding

:44:01.:44:03.

of transport outside London. The Transport Select Committee also

:44:04.:44:05.

says it's concerned that ch`nges to the way regions bid

:44:06.:44:07.

for infrastructure money cotld see areas like the South West f`lling

:44:08.:44:10.

even further behind. When you're a business

:44:11.:44:12.

which needs to get goods to clients, Particularly if,

:44:13.:44:15.

like this Cornish lighting firm 99% Customers will not buy from someone

:44:16.:44:25.

they don't think will delivdr the goods on time all of the tile. Price

:44:26.:44:30.

doesn't come into it. If yot can't deliver the goods, it will be China.

:44:31.:44:42.

This week MPs on the Transport Select Committee said

:44:43.:44:44.

the underfunding of transport projects in the regions when

:44:45.:44:46.

The latest available Governlent figures show spending per hdad in

:44:47.:44:50.

the South West is the lowest in the whole of the country at ?184 a head,

:44:51.:44:54.

For the lighting company, it's improvements to the A30 and the

:44:55.:44:59.

Just a few miles from Peter's factory is this notorious bottleneck

:45:00.:45:04.

The traffic might be flowing freely today, but in the sulmer

:45:05.:45:07.

months queues can sometimes stretch up to nine miles long.

:45:08.:45:10.

The Government's given ?30 lillion to widen it,

:45:11.:45:12.

but Cornwall Council's still finding the funds to match this.

:45:13.:45:16.

With the impact of this year's storms on thd

:45:17.:45:18.

region's rail links still top of people's minds, the MPs report also

:45:19.:45:21.

warns a new funding system from next year might not make things fairer.

:45:22.:45:27.

The bodies responsible for driving economic growth ` Local Entdrprise

:45:28.:45:30.

Partnerships ` will be compdting for money from a central pot.

:45:31.:45:35.

There are well resourced LEPs and less well resourced. The better

:45:36.:45:43.

resource rd more likely to do better. The interests of Devon and

:45:44.:45:48.

Cornwall are almost identic`l for transport. But they're two separate

:45:49.:45:51.

LEPs. If they were one, thex would have twice the resource in order to

:45:52.:45:56.

compete with other parts of the country.

:45:57.:46:05.

But others argue there is already a joint approach

:46:06.:46:08.

on all major transport topics like the A303 or rail links.

:46:09.:46:10.

And there's a determination not to be shdelined

:46:11.:46:12.

The system where you have competition means your fighting

:46:13.:46:15.

agains people who can probably put up a bigger case. But the

:46:16.:46:21.

alternative of allocation works against somewhere like Cornwall with

:46:22.:46:25.

a small population. Neither of the alternatives are perfect. So I think

:46:26.:46:30.

the only answer is to actually just ensure you argue your case very

:46:31.:46:38.

strongly. As well as A30, there has been Government cash wards various

:46:39.:46:45.

projects. But the select colmittee said funding for no area should

:46:46.:46:49.

continue to be second class. And ministers now have two months to

:46:50.:46:51.

respond. Transport links are a thing which

:46:52.:47:07.

the South West feels hard done by and the Conservatives and the

:47:08.:47:10.

Liberal Democrat are saying this is because we have a Labour government

:47:11.:47:14.

and not many MP ands they'rd not interested in us. If these LPs are

:47:15.:47:19.

like `` right we are looking at situation where that could get

:47:20.:47:24.

worse? The commons had a good debate about this and certain commhtments

:47:25.:47:27.

were made by the Government minister. That was two or three

:47:28.:47:32.

months ago. I will hope, I hope to have a debate in the House of Lords

:47:33.:47:38.

on this before the Christmas recess. The point is there has been

:47:39.:47:42.

considerable neglect of the South West for decades. We need bdtter

:47:43.:47:46.

transport, we need fairer ftnding for schools and fairer fundhng for

:47:47.:47:51.

the police for that matter. Now on transport, in my view we have a case

:47:52.:47:58.

that is unanswerable. You absolutely, it is most perstasive,

:47:59.:48:03.

roads, rail and air actuallx, you missed the air side, becausd

:48:04.:48:07.

Plymouth has lost its airport. It is important. I believe in competition.

:48:08.:48:14.

I believe in free markets. But you must allow competition to rtn fairly

:48:15.:48:18.

and it has not opinion fair for decades for us in the South West.

:48:19.:48:21.

Because we don't have the infrastructure to help our

:48:22.:48:25.

businesses and our enterprises and there is you know, we inherhted I

:48:26.:48:31.

won't go on too much about ht, but a par louse economic situation. So we

:48:32.:48:36.

haven't been able to be libdral with money. In the next Parliament we

:48:37.:48:41.

have done our house keeping and kept expenditure down. Let's hopd, let's

:48:42.:48:46.

pray we get more funding, ddcent roads and rail Wau and maybd a rail

:48:47.:48:52.

link between through Okehampton and Tavistock. If we have a Labour

:48:53.:48:57.

Government will we have to hope and pray? Don't think. There has been

:48:58.:49:04.

praying and not much hope whth this government. You have had yotr turn.

:49:05.:49:09.

A Labour Government will devolve money. What worries me about the

:49:10.:49:13.

proposals is the private sector will bid. We know that the one place

:49:14.:49:17.

where there is loads of mondy is London and that is where thdy will

:49:18.:49:21.

be attracted to go. I saw your figures. But I have seen figures

:49:22.:49:28.

that say we get ?18 a head `s opposed to over 2,000 in London The

:49:29.:49:32.

result is that we are not gdtting our fair share. If you devolve money

:49:33.:49:37.

to the region, that is ring fenced for the region. I think loc`l

:49:38.:49:40.

authorities and the Governmdnt can work together rather than this idea

:49:41.:49:45.

that the private sector will come rung along and put loads of money

:49:46.:49:49.

into Devon and Cornwall. It is not going to happen. A Labour mhnister

:49:50.:49:56.

from the South West pupped the plug on the 8. 30. And Liberal Ddmocrats

:49:57.:50:03.

stopped the dualing of A30. You had a regional structure with more

:50:04.:50:08.

public money and none of thd things were achieved when you were in

:50:09.:50:13.

government. Dualing of the trains and the A30, which people s`id it

:50:14.:50:19.

would never happen and it dhd. And people actually were amazed that

:50:20.:50:22.

happened. That dualing was critical and it has helped amazingly. Look at

:50:23.:50:29.

the small branch lines in Cornwall, held up nationally as a gre`t

:50:30.:50:33.

example, funded through European and government money. You and I will

:50:34.:50:37.

agree on this, successive governments have let down the South

:50:38.:50:42.

West. But we haven't had thd money. Next time just give us a ch`nce It

:50:43.:50:49.

is true that the, both you `nd the Conservatives are against rdgional

:50:50.:50:55.

structures and we have many LEPs and the old government region is

:50:56.:51:00.

geographically identical with the big transport schemes, becatse the

:51:01.:51:05.

rail is fine beyond Wiltshire. Isn't there an argument for doing it on a

:51:06.:51:11.

regional basis? Not so much to us. But it is to the Conservatives. I no

:51:12.:51:18.

ethat. And all I can say is that the politicians of Devon and Cornwall

:51:19.:51:22.

should peek `` speak with one voice. They're beginning to. The ddbate

:51:23.:51:26.

showed a coherence between `ll three parties that something must be done.

:51:27.:51:30.

We have been left out for f`r too long. Decades of neglect. I would

:51:31.:51:35.

agree and we need to do that. In Cornwall, many of us are saxing very

:51:36.:51:39.

many things about what Cornwall needs to solve many of its own

:51:40.:51:44.

problems. But this bidding for the private sector is not going to help

:51:45.:51:47.

anyone and not going to help the South West. OK K

:51:48.:51:59.

Farmers in the region say they're on the brink of protest acthon

:52:00.:52:02.

as the price they're paid for beef continues to spiral downwards.

:52:03.:52:05.

Some are now getting as much as ?500 less for each animal than

:52:06.:52:08.

Anna Varle has been finding out more.

:52:09.:52:11.

This time last year organic cattle like these were making

:52:12.:52:14.

I can't without making profht. The cattle are in jeopardy if things

:52:15.:52:29.

don't improve. But it is thd cattle that make this countryside. If you

:52:30.:52:35.

look around, this beautiful part of the country. Without cattle grazing

:52:36.:52:37.

it. It wouldn't be. The English Beef and Lamb Executive

:52:38.:52:57.

says there are two main reasons Firstly,

:52:58.:53:00.

consumers are buying less bdcause of And, secondly, there's

:53:01.:53:03.

a lot more beef being imported And it's got to

:53:04.:53:07.

the stage where farmers are considering taking action

:53:08.:53:11.

if no agreement can be reached Kuze uz We are close to getting

:53:12.:53:20.

action. We have a meeting whth the retailer. But we need something to

:53:21.:53:26.

happen quickly. Farmers are in a dire strait and producing bdef at a

:53:27.:53:31.

loss. It is not sustainable. We need to know where the retailers need to

:53:32.:53:35.

source this meat from. If they don't want us, tell us. We will h`ve to

:53:36.:53:40.

change our farming activitids, but people are desperate.

:53:41.:53:44.

We need to take action. We can't sustain the way things are. Between

:53:45.:53:55.

us we have got to try and work together with all these othdr group

:53:56.:53:58.

and see what we can do for the industry. I think the Government

:53:59.:54:04.

should intervene in the beef price. Because we have got the best welfare

:54:05.:54:09.

standards there are in the world and we are being undermined by cheap

:54:10.:54:16.

meat coming in. At the moment we are being really hammered. It is going

:54:17.:54:19.

to be survival of the fittest I think. But is it time for the

:54:20.:54:25.

Government to intervene? We are doing stuff to support the hndustry,

:54:26.:54:29.

but we can't dictate prices. We want to support the industry and see a

:54:30.:54:33.

thriving sector. There is the demand for the product. It is making sure

:54:34.:54:38.

that that price gets through to the farm gate. The British Retahl

:54:39.:54:44.

Consortium says they're payhng beef farm terse best price and not

:54:45.:54:48.

responsible for this fall. Ht says that supermarkets continue to

:54:49.:54:52.

support British beef and th`t the majority of beef sold is sthll

:54:53.:54:58.

produced in this country. It is hoped talks between retailers and

:54:59.:55:04.

farmers will avert any future action. It is well known th`t John

:55:05.:55:10.

is a former marine and also a former cattle farmer. Cattle and corn and I

:55:11.:55:16.

loved my farming and I love to see the Devon there too. But thhs is a

:55:17.:55:21.

serious point. It concerns le. There have always been fluctuations in

:55:22.:55:24.

brief prices and there is competition and markets. Obviously,

:55:25.:55:31.

the pound is strong and there is confidence in sterling. That affects

:55:32.:55:35.

the price. Because it makes it cheaper to import. What has

:55:36.:55:39.

concerned me is the problem with milk as well, there is a suspicion

:55:40.:55:44.

those of us who have been ehther in agriculture or involved in

:55:45.:55:48.

agriculture, that I won't use the world collusion, but the

:55:49.:55:51.

supermarkets seem to have a way not a rigging of the market, but making

:55:52.:55:56.

sure they get a good deal from the farmerment That is a free m`rket

:55:57.:55:59.

isn't it? It not a free market if they collude. I don't know whether

:56:00.:56:03.

they are or not. But I suspdct that it won't be long before an

:56:04.:56:09.

application is made to to grocery adjudicator to look at this to make

:56:10.:56:12.

sure the market is working properly. Which the Government has just set

:56:13.:56:17.

up. They set it up a year ago if you look on the web`site the supermarket

:56:18.:56:22.

Tzar as they're called, doesn't appear to have done anything. Maybe

:56:23.:56:27.

we will give him a job to do now. All the MPs in the South West and

:56:28.:56:30.

people such as myself, we should be getting on the phone, writing the

:56:31.:56:35.

letters, banging in the e`m`ils and saying get out there and do some

:56:36.:56:38.

work. Somebody will have to take on the supermarkets. If it isn't the

:56:39.:56:42.

supermarket Tzar s I don't know where we will go. We will end up

:56:43.:56:47.

without a cattle industry. That would be a disaster. Just when maybe

:56:48.:56:52.

there is a window with the Chinese opening up opportunities in the long

:56:53.:56:55.

early`morning term which cotld give a new market to our farmers. We are

:56:56.:56:59.

already exporting and doing well. We have got over the crisis of foot and

:57:00.:57:08.

mouth and BSE. Our beef is luch sought after. But I believe now that

:57:09.:57:14.

it is getting, farmers are feeling the pinch. Cattle farm tersd. It is

:57:15.:57:19.

big business in the South Wdst. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next

:57:20.:57:24.

week or so an application is meat to the ` made to the grocery

:57:25.:57:31.

adjudicator. We heard one f`rmer asking for intervention in setting

:57:32.:57:35.

prices, you would have to h`ve a party to the left of Labour to do

:57:36.:57:39.

that. I don't think that is on the agenda. But what is on the `genda is

:57:40.:57:46.

a regime of looking at the way supermarjts `` sewer markets are ``

:57:47.:57:52.

supermarkets are Spiesing the farmers `` ` squeezing the farmers.

:57:53.:57:56.

People are struggling the p`y the price. The margin has actually grown

:57:57.:57:59.

on profit. We have to move on. Now our regular round`up

:58:00.:58:06.

of the political week in thd The father

:58:07.:58:09.

of the Devon schoolgirl Gendtte Tate ` who's been missing for allost 40

:58:10.:58:12.

years ` has said he welcomes It won't bring closure. People talk

:58:13.:58:27.

about this closure thing. It doesn't happen. You have still got ht in

:58:28.:58:32.

your mind and you still wonder what would have happened. If it Hant have

:58:33.:58:46.

occurred. `` hadn't occurred. Everyone is disappointed. Pdople

:58:47.:58:53.

peel `` people feel bad. Victims of modern day slavery have warned it is

:58:54.:58:56.

a problem in the South West. They look for weak and vulnerabld people

:58:57.:59:00.

so they can manipulate them and get them into debt and once you're in

:59:01.:59:03.

debt they have got you and xou can't, it is a struggle to get out

:59:04.:59:08.

of it. New legislation to t`ckle the problem was unveiled at Wednesday

:59:09.:59:10.

state opening of Parliament. I think the last anti`slavery

:59:11.:59:24.

legislation was in the 19th century. It seems overdue. Yes, we h`d a gang

:59:25.:59:32.

masters act, because of the instances of police talking of

:59:33.:59:35.

problems we had in Cornwall. People don't understand the appallhng

:59:36.:59:40.

conditions in which people live in this country, not over seas, here in

:59:41.:59:44.

Cornwall and Devon and we h`ve got to take action. I fully support any

:59:45.:59:49.

action. I hope it goes far dnough. I think we are all at one on that

:59:50.:59:54.

That is why we have introduced the bill. It is at the behest of Liberal

:59:55.:00:03.

Democrats. A crucial thing, Anthony Steen said it is victim centred and

:00:04.:00:07.

they need to be confident they can give evidence. If you think you re

:00:08.:00:10.

going to be deported if you walk into a police station and s`y you're

:00:11.:00:14.

being kept in appalling conditions, you're not going to walk in. You

:00:15.:00:18.

have to protect the victims. It is good you minuted Anthony he has done

:00:19.:00:24.

great work on this. Thank you. That is the Sunday Politics in

:00:25.:00:36.

Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?

:00:37.:00:40.

Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make

:00:41.:00:49.

we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read

:00:50.:01:11.

the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read

:01:12.:01:15.

the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in

:01:16.:01:30.

your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not

:01:31.:01:37.

being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national

:01:38.:01:41.

holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off

:01:42.:01:45.

instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is

:01:46.:01:51.

going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to

:01:52.:02:00.

influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like

:02:01.:02:05.

the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society

:02:06.:02:11.

and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to

:02:12.:02:18.

Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such

:02:19.:02:24.

as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as

:02:25.:02:29.

guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit

:02:30.:02:32.

half of what men saying this means that women inherit

:02:33.:02:41.

and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get

:02:42.:02:41.

any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law

:02:42.:02:46.

Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is

:02:47.:02:53.

meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different

:02:54.:02:59.

situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my

:03:00.:03:03.

profession of you and planned infiltration? In my

:03:04.:03:06.

profession of you having spent 3 years on the leadership of an

:03:07.:03:08.

Islamist organisation, having been involved

:03:09.:03:21.

Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very

:03:22.:03:21.

Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to

:03:22.:03:22.

influence the students of this country with a medieval

:03:23.:03:27.

interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative

:03:28.:03:30.

view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within

:03:31.:03:35.

our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were

:03:36.:03:42.

explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican

:03:43.:03:47.

faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.

:03:48.:03:53.

Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a

:03:54.:03:58.

policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this

:03:59.:04:03.

establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the

:04:04.:04:11.

solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working

:04:12.:04:15.

out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular

:04:16.:04:19.

and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is

:04:20.:04:23.

coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying

:04:24.:04:29.

about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very

:04:30.:04:34.

serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into

:04:35.:04:41.

intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You

:04:42.:04:44.

have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very

:04:45.:04:50.

often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or

:04:51.:04:54.

Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that

:04:55.:04:57.

leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think

:04:58.:05:02.

all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound

:05:03.:05:05.

problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish

:05:06.:05:11.

schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict

:05:12.:05:14.

Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get

:05:15.:05:20.

worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a

:05:21.:05:24.

problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state

:05:25.:05:28.

should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like

:05:29.:05:41.

France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take

:05:42.:05:47.

power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some

:05:48.:05:52.

schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than

:05:53.:05:55.

incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of

:05:56.:05:59.

this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you

:06:00.:06:05.

devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and

:06:06.:06:08.

behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary

:06:09.:06:13.

for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views

:06:14.:06:16.

that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe

:06:17.:06:22.

would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how

:06:23.:06:25.

tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that

:06:26.:06:29.

view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do

:06:30.:06:37.

expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the

:06:38.:06:42.

taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,

:06:43.:06:46.

educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated

:06:47.:06:50.

equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at

:06:51.:06:54.

which has Andrew Mitchell on it the former development Secretary,

:06:55.:06:58.

because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned

:06:59.:07:02.

about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.

:07:03.:07:07.

There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley

:07:08.:07:12.

Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating

:07:13.:07:16.

free schools and academies is undermined the work of local

:07:17.:07:19.

education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which

:07:20.:07:26.

are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of

:07:27.:07:32.

being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have

:07:33.:07:38.

the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary

:07:39.:07:42.

of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not

:07:43.:07:48.

that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the

:07:49.:07:51.

oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point By

:07:52.:07:55.

tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you

:07:56.:08:03.

think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The

:08:04.:08:10.

story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report

:08:11.:08:14.

that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other

:08:15.:08:18.

report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in

:08:19.:08:22.

July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look

:08:23.:08:32.

at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even

:08:33.:08:37.

government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism

:08:38.:08:44.

became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed

:08:45.:08:49.

the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the

:08:50.:08:55.

argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They

:08:56.:09:01.

should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society It

:09:02.:09:05.

was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a

:09:06.:09:15.

hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to

:09:16.:09:23.

resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just

:09:24.:09:36.

has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?

:09:37.:09:47.

You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping

:09:48.:09:50.

him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a

:09:51.:09:55.

massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal

:09:56.:09:58.

market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic

:09:59.:10:05.

decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he

:10:06.:10:10.

takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the

:10:11.:10:19.

beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British

:10:20.:10:22.

Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is

:10:23.:10:29.

reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.

:10:30.:10:36.

There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot

:10:37.:10:43.

of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from

:10:44.:10:49.

Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and

:10:50.:10:53.

drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could

:10:54.:10:58.

think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I

:10:59.:11:01.

remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when

:11:02.:11:05.

the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European

:11:06.:11:08.

constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the

:11:09.:11:13.

ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively

:11:14.:11:21.

rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You

:11:22.:11:25.

can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the

:11:26.:11:29.

people who have protested at the elections with the way the European

:11:30.:11:32.

Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What

:11:33.:11:55.

has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we

:11:56.:12:07.

go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink

:12:08.:12:11.

at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.

:12:12.:12:21.

Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define

:12:22.:12:26.

clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough

:12:27.:12:30.

for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the

:12:31.:12:34.

fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We

:12:35.:12:38.

need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,

:12:39.:12:44.

assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is

:12:45.:12:48.

what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to

:12:49.:12:56.

finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger

:12:57.:12:59.

people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually

:13:00.:13:04.

liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too

:13:05.:13:09.

late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the

:13:10.:13:16.

one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been

:13:17.:13:24.

doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight

:13:25.:13:28.

three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you

:13:29.:13:33.

are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be

:13:34.:13:51.

back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:52.:14:19.

What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?

:14:20.:14:21.

You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.

:14:22.:14:24.

It's like a big old question mark in your heart.

:14:25.:14:27.

I just try and do the best I can for them while they're with me

:14:28.:14:30.

Join Lorraine Pascale as she looks at stories of fostering...

:14:31.:14:33.

I wasn't happy at all, but now I am. ..including her own.

:14:34.:14:36.

Nice to know finally where I came to the world.

:14:37.:14:39.

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