13/07/2014 Sunday Politics South West

Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay

As the campaign heads for the final furlong,

what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?

The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.

David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.

Many of those tipped for promotion are women.

So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or

And don't know whether to support Germany or

Fear not, we'll bring you our political guide to the World Cup.

And in the South West, the patients fighting

And is tourism being hit by Gove's term time holiday fines?

It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the

Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis

we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.

And for top political analysis you may

as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick

David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.

The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be

in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.

The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,

reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox

is in line for a return to the political front line.

But there's general agreement that women will do well and some

of the old men in suits guard will do badly.

Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.

It's good to make parliament more representative.

But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create

injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.

And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being

accelerated too far too fast and they come to

a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.

I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is

going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not

be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It

is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a

great interest in talking it up The government says, haven't we

refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.

David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the

old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and

a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.

A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to

move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being

very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority

voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not

do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot

of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list

which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all

of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a

long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging

feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has

an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by

that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions

because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking

about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that

embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach

if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless

but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would

have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be

pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised

expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be

given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are

given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks

perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female

commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has

made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a

better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We

are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time

as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be

able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like

Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be

great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think

he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going

to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go

for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would

that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile

Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart

choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard.

That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street

predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women

in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part

of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions

less male and less white. But as the list

of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned

the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for

new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project.

When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise

that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise

women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment

drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even

has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and

construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of

ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a

whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated

workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the

rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers.

It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week.

She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister

because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly

contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and

having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy

leader of the Labour Party I discovered that

leader of the Labour Party I construction industry. The

leader of the Labour Party I is, what tools do you use when it

comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent

and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible

for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches

though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do

it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite

right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot

of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire

population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he

should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants

promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they

are good performers in the media, whether they represent different

parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of

merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should

be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with.

The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the

face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have

always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have

appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with

that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and

every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all

minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot

solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism.

It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number

of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with

childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a

target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and

more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will

take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are

counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on

their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the

perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It

is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these

hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want

it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want

it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers.

How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries

won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more

engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women

to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an

organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not

go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved

miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an

injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large

percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female

short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is

mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes,

absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want

to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each.

Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister

and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind

this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with

us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born

with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue

not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female

ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very

quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a

male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that

give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which

group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something

fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a

reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would

argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing.

argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more

women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend but

if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That

is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be

able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to

discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is

female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough

suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior

position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion

Harriet Harman is still complaining women are not being treated fairly.

I think the policy reinforces the prejudice that women are not getting

there because they are treated on the same basis. Although you may not

want to have the all-female short list forever, wasn't it the kind of

shock to the system that made a visible change in female

representation, which the Tory side hasn't got? Of course it will work

short-term but longer term it has a very degrading effect on the

principle of equality and the fact Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't

treated equally, whether it is true or not, the perception is still

there. A number of women find this position must be reserved for a

woman lying patronising, and speaking of patronising women, you

spoken your Independent column, she presses all of the buttons for white

people... Was that patronising and offensive? Probably. I wrote it

because I felt that at the time but the point is that I was a token when

I was appointed. The paper brought me in because I was a woman and I

was a muslin or whatever. You are not writing about yourself. I was

writing... It doesn't mean you don't criticise other women. We absolutely

have to be tough, Manira is tough and so am I. Do you want to take

back what you wrote? No. Do you really think positive discrimination

has gone too far? I think there is already a suspicion out there that

in certain sectors women are being promoted for the wrong reasons or

ethnic minorities are being promoted for the wrong reasons. That is a

shame and my worry is that by tying funding to your ethnicity or your

gender, by saying you will get a promotion if you check that box but

you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for

inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of

doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest

constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the

UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has

been the impact on the campaign to date?

Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union

with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the

UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child

care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims

it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on

the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against

independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts

George Osborne says there will be no monetary union. President Barroso

told the BBC it would be extremely difficult for Scotland to join the

EU after a yes vote. His successor this week said he agreed. Unions

claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by being part of the UK. A poll this

morning shows a significant lead of 57% for the no campaign, leaving the

SNP to claim it will go their way in the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon,

the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, joins me now. You want an

independent Scotland to keep the pound, stay in NATO, stay in the

EU, Scotland already has all of that but you cannot guarantee it would

have any of it in an independent Scotland, why take the risk? All of

these things should be the case because they are in the best

interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to

enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and

overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also

want powers over our social security system so that we can create a

system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the

most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about

letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my

question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound

within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot

guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue

that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of

the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we

use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister

quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right

now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote,

of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The

Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the

Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are

basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story?

Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best

interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of

the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland

and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very

good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not

a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel

scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of

negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most

economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to

have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander

are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing

but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the

benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to

George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would

be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK

that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half

a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK

that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of

half. What we are doing is making a case that is based on common sense

and voters in Scotland will listen to that case being put forward by

the other side as well, and they will come to a judgement of the

common-sense position. Let's look at EU membership because you haven t

been able to guarantee the monetary union. When President Barroso said

that a seamless transition to EU membership for an independent

Scotland was anything but certain, and one said it could even be

impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but

been -- venue EU president says the same, do you dismissed him? What we

are doing... I should say at the outset of this, we have said

repeatedly to the UK Government let's go jointly and ask for a

formal opinion on the EU commission. The EU commission have

said they will only do that at this stage if the UK Government ask for

it, they are point blank refusing to do that, you have to ask why? It is

in their interests to talk up uncertainty. Scotland is an integral

part of the European Union, we have been for 40 years, we comply with

the rules and regulations... Mr Juncker knows all of that but he

still says it will be anything but a seamless transition. He said you

could not join the European Union by sending a letter, that is not our

proposal. We set down a robust proposal and the timescale we think

is reasonable under these circumstances. There are many

nationals of other states living in Scotland right now, if we were to be

outside of the European Union for any period of time, something the

current treaty doesn't even provide for, they would lose their right to

stay here. The interests of Scotland and the interests of European Union

are in favour of a seamless transition. It comes down to common

sense and people in Scotland will make

sense and people in Scotland will their own judgement on who is

talking the common-sense. What about NATO, two years ago you told

Newsnight the SNP's position is that we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a

democratic debate, we looked at whether it would be in the interests

of an independent Scotland, which forms a significant part of the

territory of the North Atlantic and the party changed its mind. It did

so in a thoroughly democratic way. That is the nature of democracy

Would you accept the protection of the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is

no doubt the SNP's position is that we do not want nuclear weapons in

Scotland. That is not what I asked. The world rid themselves of nuclear

weapons. One of the interesting point is of the 28 member countries

of Natal 25 do not have nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland...

I asked if you would accept the nuclear umbrella. The key feature of

NATO's military dog train is now clear shrike. We would accept the

basis of which NATO is founded but we would argue two things. We want

Trident removed from Scotland rather than have a situation where might we

are spending ?100 billion over the next generation replacing Trident

and we would argue within the international community that the

world should move much more quickly to rid itself of nuclear weapons.

That is the principal position and won the SNP has held consistently

for many years. You would get rid of one of the key parts of the NATO

deterrent based in Scotland. You would kick that out. You would not

accept all of the club rules because you do not like the idea of nuclear.

Why would they like a member like you in? Because Scotland is a

significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic. You do not

subscribe to the rules. 25 of the member states of NATO are

non-nuclear members. You are saying you do not follow the doctrine. NATO

has said it wants to move away from reliance on nuclear weapons. An

independent Scotland would be entering the majority mainstream of

NATO as a country that did not have nuclear weapons. By leading by

example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise

would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that

an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a

year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says

he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and

save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the

outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this

referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as

part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can

afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to

have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of

borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and

the savings time? People who have a mortgage and

be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource

better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are

about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your

predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues

predictions. Last year you forecast hear a lot from you and your fellow

predictions. Last year you forecast nationalists, you want a

Scandinavian style social democracy, you know how to spend the money but

you never tell us about social democratic levels of taxation. Also

should grizzlies have higher levels of tax in Scotland does at the

moment -- all social grizzlies. I want a Scottish style of social

democracy. Free education, free medicines and balancing the books

every single year. We want to get more people into work in Scotland,

raise the level of distribution in the Labour market and make the

economy more productive so we are raising the overall tax revenue

Over the last 33 years we have generated more taxpayer head of

population than is the case and the rest of the UK. Those last 33 years,

some of those years oil prices would have been high and in others they

would have been law but we take different decisions. A report showed

that if we go as part of the Westminster system down the plate --

route of replacing Trident then the cost will be as high as ?4 billion

every year. Our share of that is the hundred million pounds a year. Let

us get access to our own resources so we can make different and better

decisions about how to spend the resources we have. You are promising

Scandinavian style social democratic levels of public spending but you

say you will not need a top rate of tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia

has, that all 25%, which is what Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You

are going to have the spending but none of the taxes that make it

possible in Scandinavia. For mischievous reasons you are met --

misrepresenting what I am saying. The Scottish economy can afford it

and we want to generate more wealth in our economy. We want to use the

existing resources Scotland has We are the 14th richest country in the

world in terms of what we produce. We do not want to be wasting

resources. We want to be spending resources on the things that other

priority for the people of Scotland. These are the benefits and the

opportunities really get if we take the opportunity of voting yes and

becoming independent. Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics

here in the South West, campaigners claim people are dying becatse they

haven't been able to get a new type And for the next 20 minutes I'm

joined by the Labour MP for Exeter, Ben Bradshaw,

and the Conservative MP for Welcome, both of you,

to the programme. Thousands of public sector workers

took their anger against the spending cuts to the streets

across the South West this week In a national day of action,

teachers, firefighters, health workers and other staff walked out

on Thursday in disputes over cuts to Many schools closed completdly while

there were mass rallies in Dxeter, Anne`Marie, are these strikds

justified, do you think? I think my problem with strhkes is,

well, clearly there must be It must be democratic,

so you need to be clear it hs being done, really, because that hs

the mandate of the union, and indeed And I think the other challdnge to

the current way strikes are organised is that the parents don't

have a voice, because they `re the ones in many cases who suffer,

suddenly having to take timd out You need to the right to strike

but you need something that really works and takes account

of all stakeholders. I regret the disruption

but Anne`Marie is wrong to suggest The turnout was bigger than it was

for the election to the Polhce and Crime Commissioner for Devon

and Cornwall and actually more than And if Anne Marie's serious

and the Tories are serious, as well as vilifying public sector workers

making it easy to strike, why don't Well, I don't think we are vilifying

and actually it's the Labour Party who has been at the forefront

of saying that using the eldctronic process for mainstream elections

doesn't really work. I think we've managed perfectly well

with the existing system of going to ballot stations and it seems to me

that to do it in the workpl`ce. . I think the agenda of the Tory

party is absolutely clear hdre. If they get back

into government next time, working people and unions in partictlar are

in for a very hard time. We want to give everybody

a fair chance. Boris Johnson suggested 50% should

turn out Would you agree with that,

Anne`Marie? The government has made it lore

difficult It banned workplace balloting,

it won't allow online balloting There's absolutely no reason

why it shouldn't do that. As I said, the Police and

Crime Commissioner, which Anne Marie Morris supported, for Devon

and Cornwall, was elected whth just Well, Ben,

you're right to make the colparison but, frankly, those elections, first

time round, the turnout was not .. Ed Miliband came under fire this

week for neither supporting nor We have huge sympathy for ptblic

sector workers, particularlx low paid workers in both the public and

private sectors who have borne the No,

all strikes are a sign of f`ilure. But these people have seen their

living standards fall by 20$ while the wealthiest few have been given a

massive tax cut by the government. That is not a fairer way

of attacking the deficit. Campaigners in the South West claim

people are dying because thdy haven't been able to get a new type

of cancer treatment on the NHS. The Prime Minister is coming under

increasing pressure to look into why there has been a 70% drop

in the use of a high`tech form Six years ago,

Jennifer Woodford from Falmouth paid ?15,000 and travelled to Grdece to

have this treatment, Jennifer Woodford believes

that spotting this newspaper Back in 2008, she was told

she had two years to live. She had

an inoperable tumour close to her But then she read

about a machine with a robotic arm that delivers a powerful radioactive

beam with pinpoint accuracy. We saw an article about Cybdr Knife

and we took this to the consultant and he said, go

for it, you've got nothing to lose. This treatment wasn't avail`ble

in the UK at the time so she spent ?15,000 getting it

in Greece instead. Had I not had Cyber Knife, H would

have had a very slow, drawn`out painful death, which would have

cost the NHS thousands and thousands Machines that can deliver this type

of stereotactic radiotherapx treatment are now available

in this country. Derriford Hospital in Plymouth

first considered buying the equipment four years ago

but a machine was only inst`lled 60 patients have been treatdd

so far. But campaigners say

despite the service now being more widely available

in this country fewer peopld are NHS England took over responsibility

for paying for it, effectivdly, from the 1st of April last xear

2013, and ever since that thme, There are people going all over the

world to be treated by this stuff. We've got the machines

in quite a lot of places. Very often, they have been bought

by charity donations. NHS England says

while there is evidence that this type of radiotherapy works well

on some lung cancers, there is not so much evidence that

it works as well on others. They say the NHS budget isn't

limitless and they have to prioritise funding on treatlent

that is already proven to work. This week, Tessa Munt asked

the Prime Minister to meet her to discuss why there has been ` 70

decrease in the number of c`ncers What we have done is introdtced

the Cancer Drugs Fund which is not just for drugs

but also for innovative tre`tment. I know there have been changes

as well in the way that radhotherapy is carried out and new technology

that is being used, which m`y be part of the explanation for the

figures that she gives, but I'm very Meanwhile, though,

campaigners fear the governlent is I can't understand why,

when it's a matter of life or death, people aren't being referred

for this life`saving treatmdnt. You know, I know people are

dying who need this treatment. Jennifer Woodford ending

that report there. Ben, you were Health Ministdr

for a time under Labour. We've got the machines here

and yet NHS England isn't ftnding Well, it sounds very worrying and

particularly disappointing given that the Prime Minister acttally

engaged with the English rugby star Lawrence Dallaglio to help work with

NHS England ` his mother, of course, died of cancer ` to spread out

and roll out this treatment and he seems to have changed

his mind in the last year or so I can only think because

of the huge financial crisis that is affecting not just NHS Engl`nd

but trusts here in the South West. Most of our trusts are now

in huge deficit. Devon CCG and local hospitals are

in the red seriously, so they are having to make very

difficult decisions like thhs. Anne Marie,

is this the cost`cutting me`sures Actually, in many ways,

I share Ben's concerns. I had a constituent come to me,

he had prostate cancer, so this wasn't life and death,

but it was all about, you know, incontinence and fertility, so he

went abroad to get the treatment. But actually Cyber Knife was

developed in my constituencx so I know the inventor and I know

the team so, for me, it is ` great shame that something inventdd

in Britain isn't really being used. It's a shame that is the case

but for somebody who needs ht for But I think what's happened here

is the procurement mechanisl. When I've spoken to the people

involved in this what they have said is the way procurement oper`te at

the moment, the large organhsations are procuring from big organisations

that can provide all of Hang on,

we've got machines in the hospitals, often bought by charities,

which are just not being usdd. Even with procurement, therd is a

problem in the system, isn't there? That seems to show

the NHS isn't working in thhs case. What you're saying is absolttely

right, it is criminal that they re not being used, and systems need

to be put in place to changd that. I agree with Ben and you on that

but I don't think the probldm is But I'm absolutely convinced that

David is going to come under a lot of pressure from all

of us to make sure that cancer is properly treated, particularly if it

is a product which, frankly, has Ben, does this sort of thing make

you worry about the direction I think this is part

of a deteriorating picture. We are already seeing waiting times

and waiting lists for routine operations grow exponentially longer

than they have been for six years. We are seeing much longer w`its

at A departments. We are beginning to see

the impact of the government's disastrous ?3 billion reorg`nisation

of the health service. There were problems under L`bour,

weren't there? There were actually budget

crises under Labour. Even with a surplus

in the system there were problems. Difficult decisions

always have to be made. The NHS does not have

a limitless pot. When we left government,

public satisfaction with the NHS was at record levels and

waiting times were at record lows. Those are both now going

in the wrong direction. Are you worrying, Anne Marid Morris,

about where No, I think the NHS is in vdry

safe hands with a Conservathve government and actually herd we

have statistics versus stathstics. We are almost rerunning what

happened in the House of Colmons in terms of the statistics produced

by David and the statistics produced Basically we are both

saying different things. According to our research,

the waiting time issue is actually better than it was under Labour

which is not what you The truth of it is,

where do you measure it? I think the difference is it is

about making sure that people, when they actually come in and fhrst

interface, they get treated quickly. If you look at it at that ldvel

certainly, our record is better Talking about statistics,

I'll give you some. We have, here, the third lowest

cancer survival rate in Europe and many hospitals are using this

type of treatment routinely. One hospital

in France treats more patients with this kind of radiotherapy than all

hospitals in England combindd. I agree with you, and it

clearly has to be sorted out. But a lot of this,

it's not just about treatment, If you actually look

at the research, you will see one of our challenges

is we do not diagnose early enough. I was talking to NHS England

earlier today to say what You have seen, I'm sure, thdre was

one lady in my constituency, she had been to her GP 19 times before

she then had to go privatelx. I spoke to NHS England and said this

has to be sorted out and thdy said, yes, we are getting a team together

to look at how we can work together Sarah Wallace, in your neighbouring

constituency, she now chairs the Commons Health Committed,

ex`GP, says the NHS does nedd more It is an important issue, isn't it,

the NHS? There is nothing more important

than health and education. Clearly, if there was

a bottomless pit of cash, you would I think the important thing is to

make sure we use the money we have more effectively

and I think that is the discussion Ben, very briefly, do you think we

may have to face facts that soon we could have to start paying

for things like a visit to the GP? I think people would be

against that. I think the principle that the NHS

is there for people when they need it is absolutely

paramount, certainly for thd Labour Party, and that would be very unfair

on poorer people, for example. But we didn't need to have this huge

reorganisation That's where a lot

of the money has gone. I think we could also much better

integrate health and social care. And we could deliver more

for the same amount of monex Tourism businesses in Cornw`ll claim

a ban on term time holidays for In September new legislation came

into force introducing fines for parents who take their children

out of school in term time. But tourism leaders say confusion

over the law is costing thel money and they've have written to Michael

Gove calling for it to be changed. Justin Spreckley lets 12

self`catering holiday cottages In previous years,

the place has been full of families with young children

but this year is different. We've got a three`bedroom and

a one`bedroom cottage free `nd we the one other family with school`age

children here are from Scotland Since the government changed

the law in September, many families in England have been

put off by the threat of fines. We've experienced changes

in our statistics last year against this year of a 27% drop in families

coming during the school term time. I'm sure

the government's legislation was well intended but did they `ctually

look at the implications? In Looe, families with school`age

children seem few and far bdtween. Looe is doing very well

at the moment with the numbdr of people here

but we need to those familids which You'll see young families whth

tots and you'll see older couples. It's the fact that larger f`milies

are missing in the demographics This family from Birmingham

visited Cornwall last year, too Mum

and dad have brought six`ye`r`old Jack and nine`year`old Tamara back

during term time to save money. They have perfect

attendance records. They don't have sick days,

they are not late, We work hard to get them to

school in the right fashion. I think of it

as someone who is continuously doing He is in year one,

she's in year four. The irony is while Cornwall has

tended not to fine parents who take their children on holiday dtring the

school term, tourism businesses here say they are suffering becatse other

local education authorities do. Recent figures show that whhlst

nobody was fined in Cornwall during the current academic year,

900 parents were fined in Ddvon Tourism leaders years say it's this

kind of inconsistency which is causing confusion

and they have written to the Education Secretary calling

for a more common`sense approach. The problem is I think therd's not

enough clarification for the head teachers or parents,

even the councillors, and everybody So parents are frightened

of taking them out of school, heads are frightened of letting them.

It needs to be sorted. These people have been encotraged

over a number of years to accommodate famhlies

and the accommodation is now empty So we have to look

for a solution because I can't have The Department for Education

maintains that local authorhties must work with schools to sdt

criteria for issuing fines and that they should take

a tough stance on tackling `bsence. Few here would argue with

the principle. They say in practice

the confusion must be cleardd up. Anne Marie, I know you are

a big champion of small bushnesses. Will you push to have

this problem cleared up? It needs clearing up becausd clearly

we are very dependent on totrism in the South West but I think there are

two pieces to the jigsaw puzzle and That was the fact that in Scotland

they have different times If you look at Germany and France,

Germany divides the country into five different regions and they

take holidays at different times. If we did that, we would not have

this real concentration of just at one time of year.

That would help... This has been suggested for years,

hasn't it? I think it is the absolute

requirement to try to ensurd kids get the time in school they need

and get better results, bec`use it is proven that absenteeism reduces

academic success. But we must look

at different ways of doing ht. I would agree with the individuals

in your clip that we need some clarity because that, in part,

is why we've got this difference We need it to be clear that

the headteacher is able to look at the individual circumstances

of that family and make a sdnsible, informed decision.

The problem is... Do you support Michael Gove in this

move to fine parents? The more you take children out of school in term

time, the more their achievdment suffer. I don't think we should

encourage families to take oldies in term time. Some people in the clip

seems to be suggesting that. It is unfair on law`abiding familhes who

pay the full price. The majority of families don't do this, thex pay the

full price. Labour is committed to introducing a German type sxstem

where holidays are staggered over a three or four month period hn the

summer so no one part of thd country is on holiday at the same thme. That

is also the answer to getting prices down. Do you think this is taking

power away from parents. If children are taken abroad, and they lay

otherwise not be able to if it was to expensive, it is an amazhng

educational experience, new language. Parents that make an

educational case for a trip and make it in good time... That is not

exceptional circumstances. Headteachers use their discretion.

And MPs have been discussing new laws to tackle slavery

following a campaign by the former Conservative MP for Totnes.

They're probably within a mhle of where we live.

They have been found in Plylouth, Exeter, Torbay.

That is our round`up of the political week. This growth fund

money to help small as this is, how can people get their hands on that

and how soon is it coming? Ht is being sorted out at the momdnt. A

number of businesses are benefiting. The sausage company in my

constituency is benefiting. It is nearly ?19 million. It incltdes

Bristol, which means we get less in the far south`west. Is that a

problem? We should see how ht finally gets carved up. The detail

is yet to be worked out, sole has`been but the rest are still to

be looked at. It is a large amount of money and the important thing is

that it is good news for thd south`west. Any regional devolution

of power is good but this is far less than Labour is proposing, under

plans which would give more decision`making to the regions. It

is about three times more than the government proposes. It is not new

money, just devolving money from London the same as the

Conservatives. Lord Heseltine, who recommended this, our proposals are

closer to his levels than the government's. I think there is a

halfway house between both of us there. Thanks to our guests. Now we

go back to Andrew. You can `lways watch the programme on iPlaxer

during will keep a bit safer. That is all

the time we have. So, plenty happening in Parliament

this coming week, including a controversial bill to make

so-called assisted dying legal and Lord Carey has intervened in the

assisted dying debate. Will it make a difference? It will make a

difference because we have established in the House of Lords, I

am not sure who they speak for and why they should have a privileged

position, but he was a big opponent and has made a change of heart. The

fact that the Daily Mail has printed this shows this is a big

intervention. The Bill being pushed through, is it now on the agenda? I

think it is. There are international examples of assisted dying

elsewhere. The state of Oregon passed a Bill similar to this in the

1990s and things have not got out of control. That has not been an

expansion or abuse. It has settled down and become part of the

furniture. That makes it easier for this Bill, to make the case for it.

Religious people may still have a principled objection but most other

people have a practical objection, which is how to put in place

safeguards to deal with unscrupulous relatives or anyone else who wants

to abuse this right? Once a controversial issue is only being

opposed for practical reasons it is on its way to getting its way. What

is the division, is it the Church against everybody else? Is it a

right and left division? What is stopping it? It is a very difficult

moral issue and there are people who can have genuinely held Christian

beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who can be on both sides. I think that

the Lord Carey intervention is potentially a game changer not just

because he is a former Archbishop of Canterbury but because he was on the

Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of England. That is quite a big move.

The response was to say, please withdraw your bell and let us have a

royal Commission. The Supreme Court kicked the ball back to Parliament

when they rejected the cases of three people who had been taking the

case and said, we could say that banning the right to life is against

the European Court of Human Rights, but it is a moral issue and an issue

for Parliament. Parliament needs to decide. The data act that is going

to be pushed through Parliament In record time. To comply with a

European court judgement. Tom Watson and David Davis, some dissent. Are

you so prized with how united the establishment, left, right and

centre is? No. There is a great quote saying this has been enacted

under the something must be done act and that captures it exactly. Even

Cameron says he does not want to look people in the eye and say that

he did not do everything he could. There is no end to the power of

surveillance. It is all was about drawing a distinction. I am always

suspicious when politicians look something up and said, we have all

agreed. Are there at the centre is right or is the political

establishment right? I think the establishment is right. I think it

is stronger than other issues. We are in a unique position where all

three political parties have relatively recent experience of

government so they now that security threats are not made up by

unscrupulous people. The legislation being proposed is not dramatic, it

is to fill a gap that was created. I do not see the political

controversy. All three political parties support it. David Davis and

Liberty are against that, and always are. Would you not have expected...

The Lib Dems are in government, but a bit more rebellion on the Labour

backbenches? There is no political controversy put outside parliament

there's quite a lot of controversy about this. My paper has taken an

interest in this. It is interesting, it does not feel, it is not a

1950s, three public school boys setting, let us have this deal. The

Liberal Democrats and Labour have serious questions. There's going to

be a sunset clause that will run out in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who

asked pretty tough questions, have said there are assurances. Ed

Miliband did not go to public school.

For many English football fans, tonight's World Cup final presents

How do you pick between two traditional foes

Well, if you're a political obsessive, like these

three, you could always back the nation according to how it votes.

The website LabourList has produced a political guide to the tournament.

At the beginning of the tournament, it was a fairly balanced playing

field politically with 15 left wing and 17 right-wing countries. England

found themselves isolated in a group with three left-wing countries. That

was the least of their problems There was a clear domination of

democratic regimes over authoritarian with only six of

oratory and countries making it through to the finals and the only

all authoritarian tie was dubbed the worst match of the World Cup. By the

second round 16 teams remained. The left had a clear advantage with

nine, seven from the right and authoritarian countries all but

wiped out. Two representatives remained. Both were beaten by

European democracies. By the semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A

right-wing Protestant Europe taking on Catholics South America. With one

victory apiece, Germany knocking out Brazil and Argentina beating the

Dutch, tonight's final repeats that pattern. Who will win? Angela

Merkel's Germany or Argentina? We're joined now

by Britain's only Labour adviser Should we read political

significance in to the fact that the only time England has won the World

Cup was under a Labour government? Of course. The problem is we did not

qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a Labour government. We have had some

pretty shoddy results under a Labour government. As someone under the

left, are you backing Argentina Absolutely not. I do not think it

has anything to do with politics. It is a bit of fun. People should

choose it is Don Hoop plays the best football and the Germans have been

fantastic. They were great in 2 10 as well. They started this model in

2008 and that is the sort of thing people should be supporting. Who

should a Eurosceptic support? I would not say Argentina because that

is the country that has tried to seize British sovereign territory

within my lifetime. You were not around for the Blitz. Believe it or

not, I was not. There is a strong political case to support Germany.

They are probably going to win the World Cup with a clear of -- with

players of Polish origin. That sort of cultural change they have forced

themselves to go through... You talk about them being right wing, but in

fact the way that the German league is structured, and I am an expert,

is based on ownership. It is very different from the Premier League.

It is about football as a usual good. The ticket prices are lower.

The fans are involved in running the club. It is a model that all English

football clubs should emulate. Germany had a strong football team

under centre right governments and centre left governments and a

coalition. A strong football team and a strong economy. The

Conservative MP who is the arch Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of

the European Union and was for a few weeks ago when people were making

jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker he was outraged and said you should not

do that, so he could happily support Germany. What was interesting about

the authoritarian and democratic regimes, what is great is that the

World Cup is run by this open and democratic organisation Fifa. It is

similar to the EU in many regards. Two countries led by women. Maybe

gender is the thing. We did not win under Margaret Thatcher. There's one

big difference with the EU, you cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go

to a European summit. Did you know that Italy won two world cups under

Mussolini? Can we draw any conclusions between a political

system and the performance of the football team? You can draw certain

parallels between maybe national cliches, so the Germans are

efficient and effective, which might reflect and the English are very

polite so we let everyone score first and go into the second round.

We put ourselves at the back of the queue. Is England going to qualify

for the European? We are going to win the European Championship. The

first country Scotland have to play is Germany. What could possibly go

wrong? Who is going to win? Germany. Germany. I am going to put a few bob

on Argentina. Are you going to be watching? Absolutely. Thank you

This is the last Sunday Politics for the summer.

But we'll be back in early autumn and our first programme will be live

from Scotland, the weekend before the referendum

The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at noon and we'll bring you

the last PMQs before the summer on Wednesday morning from 11:30am.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless