13/07/2014 Sunday Politics South West


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Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay


As the campaign heads for the final furlong,


what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?


The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.


David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.


Many of those tipped for promotion are women.


So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or


And don't know whether to support Germany or


Fear not, we'll bring you our political guide to the World Cup.


And in the South West, the patients fighting


And is tourism being hit by Gove's term time holiday fines?


It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the


Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis


we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.


And for top political analysis you may


as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick


David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.


The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be


in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.


The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,


reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox


is in line for a return to the political front line.


But there's general agreement that women will do well and some


of the old men in suits guard will do badly.


Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.


It's good to make parliament more representative.


But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create


injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.


And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being


accelerated too far too fast and they come to


a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.


I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is


going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not


be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It


is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a


great interest in talking it up The government says, haven't we


refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.


David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the


old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and


a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.


A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to


move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being


very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority


voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not


do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot


of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list


which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all


of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a


long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging


feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has


an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by


that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions


because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking


about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that


embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach


if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless


but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would


have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be


pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised


expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be


given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are


given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks


perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female


commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has


made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a


better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We


are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time


as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be


able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like


Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be


great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think


he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going


to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go


for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would


that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile


Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart


choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard.


That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street


predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women


in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part


of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions


less male and less white. But as the list


of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned


the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for


new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project.


When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise


that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise


women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment


drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even


has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and


construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of


ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a


whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated


workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the


rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers.


It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week.


She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister


because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly


contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and


having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy


leader of the Labour Party I discovered that


leader of the Labour Party I construction industry. The


leader of the Labour Party I is, what tools do you use when it


comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by


Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent


and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible


for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches


though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do


it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite


right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot


of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire


population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he


should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants


promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they


are good performers in the media, whether they represent different


parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of


merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should


be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with.


The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the


face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have


always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have


appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with


that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and


every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all


minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot


solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism.


It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number


of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with


childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a


target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and


more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will


take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are


counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on


their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the


perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It


is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these


hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want


it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want


it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers.


How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries


won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more


engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women


to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an


organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not


go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved


miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an


injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large


percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female


short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is


mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes,


absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want


to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each.


Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister


and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind


this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with


us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born


with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue


not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female


ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very


quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a


male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that


give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which


group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something


fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a


reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would


argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing.


argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more


women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend but


if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That


is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be


able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to


discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is


female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough


suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior


position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion


Harriet Harman is still complaining women are not being treated fairly.


I think the policy reinforces the prejudice that women are not getting


there because they are treated on the same basis. Although you may not


want to have the all-female short list forever, wasn't it the kind of


shock to the system that made a visible change in female


representation, which the Tory side hasn't got? Of course it will work


short-term but longer term it has a very degrading effect on the


principle of equality and the fact Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't


treated equally, whether it is true or not, the perception is still


there. A number of women find this position must be reserved for a


woman lying patronising, and speaking of patronising women, you


spoken your Independent column, she presses all of the buttons for white


people... Was that patronising and offensive? Probably. I wrote it


because I felt that at the time but the point is that I was a token when


I was appointed. The paper brought me in because I was a woman and I


was a muslin or whatever. You are not writing about yourself. I was


writing... It doesn't mean you don't criticise other women. We absolutely


have to be tough, Manira is tough and so am I. Do you want to take


back what you wrote? No. Do you really think positive discrimination


has gone too far? I think there is already a suspicion out there that


in certain sectors women are being promoted for the wrong reasons or


ethnic minorities are being promoted for the wrong reasons. That is a


shame and my worry is that by tying funding to your ethnicity or your


gender, by saying you will get a promotion if you check that box but


you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for


inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of


doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest


constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the


UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has


been the impact on the campaign to date?


Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union


with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the


UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child


care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims


it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on


the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against


independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts


George Osborne says there will be no monetary union. President Barroso


told the BBC it would be extremely difficult for Scotland to join the


EU after a yes vote. His successor this week said he agreed. Unions


claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by being part of the UK. A poll this


morning shows a significant lead of 57% for the no campaign, leaving the


SNP to claim it will go their way in the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon,


the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, joins me now. You want an


independent Scotland to keep the pound, stay in NATO, stay in the


EU, Scotland already has all of that but you cannot guarantee it would


have any of it in an independent Scotland, why take the risk? All of


these things should be the case because they are in the best


interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to


enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and


overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also


want powers over our social security system so that we can create a


system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the


most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about


letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my


question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound


within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot


guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue


that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of


the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we


use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister


quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right


now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote,


of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The


Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the


Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are


basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story?


Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best


interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of


the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland


and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very


good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not


a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel


scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of


negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most


economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to


have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander


are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing


but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the


benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to


George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would


be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK


that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half


a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK


that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of


half. What we are doing is making a case that is based on common sense


and voters in Scotland will listen to that case being put forward by


the other side as well, and they will come to a judgement of the


common-sense position. Let's look at EU membership because you haven t


been able to guarantee the monetary union. When President Barroso said


that a seamless transition to EU membership for an independent


Scotland was anything but certain, and one said it could even be


impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but


been -- venue EU president says the same, do you dismissed him? What we


are doing... I should say at the outset of this, we have said


repeatedly to the UK Government let's go jointly and ask for a


formal opinion on the EU commission. The EU commission have


said they will only do that at this stage if the UK Government ask for


it, they are point blank refusing to do that, you have to ask why? It is


in their interests to talk up uncertainty. Scotland is an integral


part of the European Union, we have been for 40 years, we comply with


the rules and regulations... Mr Juncker knows all of that but he


still says it will be anything but a seamless transition. He said you


could not join the European Union by sending a letter, that is not our


proposal. We set down a robust proposal and the timescale we think


is reasonable under these circumstances. There are many


nationals of other states living in Scotland right now, if we were to be


outside of the European Union for any period of time, something the


current treaty doesn't even provide for, they would lose their right to


stay here. The interests of Scotland and the interests of European Union


are in favour of a seamless transition. It comes down to common


sense and people in Scotland will make


sense and people in Scotland will their own judgement on who is


talking the common-sense. What about NATO, two years ago you told


Newsnight the SNP's position is that we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a


democratic debate, we looked at whether it would be in the interests


of an independent Scotland, which forms a significant part of the


territory of the North Atlantic and the party changed its mind. It did


so in a thoroughly democratic way. That is the nature of democracy


Would you accept the protection of the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is


no doubt the SNP's position is that we do not want nuclear weapons in


Scotland. That is not what I asked. The world rid themselves of nuclear


weapons. One of the interesting point is of the 28 member countries


of Natal 25 do not have nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland...


I asked if you would accept the nuclear umbrella. The key feature of


NATO's military dog train is now clear shrike. We would accept the


basis of which NATO is founded but we would argue two things. We want


Trident removed from Scotland rather than have a situation where might we


are spending ?100 billion over the next generation replacing Trident


and we would argue within the international community that the


world should move much more quickly to rid itself of nuclear weapons.


That is the principal position and won the SNP has held consistently


for many years. You would get rid of one of the key parts of the NATO


deterrent based in Scotland. You would kick that out. You would not


accept all of the club rules because you do not like the idea of nuclear.


Why would they like a member like you in? Because Scotland is a


significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic. You do not


subscribe to the rules. 25 of the member states of NATO are


non-nuclear members. You are saying you do not follow the doctrine. NATO


has said it wants to move away from reliance on nuclear weapons. An


independent Scotland would be entering the majority mainstream of


NATO as a country that did not have nuclear weapons. By leading by


example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise


would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that


an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a


year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says


he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and


save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the


outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this


referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as


part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can


afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to


have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of


borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and


the savings time? People who have a mortgage and


be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource


better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are


about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your


predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues


predictions. Last year you forecast hear a lot from you and your fellow


predictions. Last year you forecast nationalists, you want a


Scandinavian style social democracy, you know how to spend the money but


you never tell us about social democratic levels of taxation. Also


should grizzlies have higher levels of tax in Scotland does at the


moment -- all social grizzlies. I want a Scottish style of social


democracy. Free education, free medicines and balancing the books


every single year. We want to get more people into work in Scotland,


raise the level of distribution in the Labour market and make the


economy more productive so we are raising the overall tax revenue


Over the last 33 years we have generated more taxpayer head of


population than is the case and the rest of the UK. Those last 33 years,


some of those years oil prices would have been high and in others they


would have been law but we take different decisions. A report showed


that if we go as part of the Westminster system down the plate --


route of replacing Trident then the cost will be as high as ?4 billion


every year. Our share of that is the hundred million pounds a year. Let


us get access to our own resources so we can make different and better


decisions about how to spend the resources we have. You are promising


Scandinavian style social democratic levels of public spending but you


say you will not need a top rate of tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia


has, that all 25%, which is what Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You


are going to have the spending but none of the taxes that make it


possible in Scandinavia. For mischievous reasons you are met --


misrepresenting what I am saying. The Scottish economy can afford it


and we want to generate more wealth in our economy. We want to use the


existing resources Scotland has We are the 14th richest country in the


world in terms of what we produce. We do not want to be wasting


resources. We want to be spending resources on the things that other


priority for the people of Scotland. These are the benefits and the


opportunities really get if we take the opportunity of voting yes and


becoming independent. Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics


here in the South West, campaigners claim people are dying becatse they


haven't been able to get a new type And for the next 20 minutes I'm


joined by the Labour MP for Exeter, Ben Bradshaw,


and the Conservative MP for Welcome, both of you,


to the programme. Thousands of public sector workers


took their anger against the spending cuts to the streets


across the South West this week In a national day of action,


teachers, firefighters, health workers and other staff walked out


on Thursday in disputes over cuts to Many schools closed completdly while


there were mass rallies in Dxeter, Anne`Marie, are these strikds


justified, do you think? I think my problem with strhkes is,


well, clearly there must be It must be democratic,


so you need to be clear it hs being done, really, because that hs


the mandate of the union, and indeed And I think the other challdnge to


the current way strikes are organised is that the parents don't


have a voice, because they `re the ones in many cases who suffer,


suddenly having to take timd out You need to the right to strike


but you need something that really works and takes account


of all stakeholders. I regret the disruption


but Anne`Marie is wrong to suggest The turnout was bigger than it was


for the election to the Polhce and Crime Commissioner for Devon


and Cornwall and actually more than And if Anne Marie's serious


and the Tories are serious, as well as vilifying public sector workers


making it easy to strike, why don't Well, I don't think we are vilifying


and actually it's the Labour Party who has been at the forefront


of saying that using the eldctronic process for mainstream elections


doesn't really work. I think we've managed perfectly well


with the existing system of going to ballot stations and it seems to me


that to do it in the workpl`ce. . I think the agenda of the Tory


party is absolutely clear hdre. If they get back


into government next time, working people and unions in partictlar are


in for a very hard time. We want to give everybody


a fair chance. Boris Johnson suggested 50% should


turn out Would you agree with that,


Anne`Marie? The government has made it lore


difficult It banned workplace balloting,


it won't allow online balloting There's absolutely no reason


why it shouldn't do that. As I said, the Police and


Crime Commissioner, which Anne Marie Morris supported, for Devon


and Cornwall, was elected whth just Well, Ben,


you're right to make the colparison but, frankly, those elections, first


time round, the turnout was not .. Ed Miliband came under fire this


week for neither supporting nor We have huge sympathy for ptblic


sector workers, particularlx low paid workers in both the public and


private sectors who have borne the No,


all strikes are a sign of f`ilure. But these people have seen their


living standards fall by 20$ while the wealthiest few have been given a


massive tax cut by the government. That is not a fairer way


of attacking the deficit. Campaigners in the South West claim


people are dying because thdy haven't been able to get a new type


of cancer treatment on the NHS. The Prime Minister is coming under


increasing pressure to look into why there has been a 70% drop


in the use of a high`tech form Six years ago,


Jennifer Woodford from Falmouth paid ?15,000 and travelled to Grdece to


have this treatment, Jennifer Woodford believes


that spotting this newspaper Back in 2008, she was told


she had two years to live. She had


an inoperable tumour close to her But then she read


about a machine with a robotic arm that delivers a powerful radioactive


beam with pinpoint accuracy. We saw an article about Cybdr Knife


and we took this to the consultant and he said, go


for it, you've got nothing to lose. This treatment wasn't avail`ble


in the UK at the time so she spent ?15,000 getting it


in Greece instead. Had I not had Cyber Knife, H would


have had a very slow, drawn`out painful death, which would have


cost the NHS thousands and thousands Machines that can deliver this type


of stereotactic radiotherapx treatment are now available


in this country. Derriford Hospital in Plymouth


first considered buying the equipment four years ago


but a machine was only inst`lled 60 patients have been treatdd


so far. But campaigners say


despite the service now being more widely available


in this country fewer peopld are NHS England took over responsibility


for paying for it, effectivdly, from the 1st of April last xear


2013, and ever since that thme, There are people going all over the


world to be treated by this stuff. We've got the machines


in quite a lot of places. Very often, they have been bought


by charity donations. NHS England says


while there is evidence that this type of radiotherapy works well


on some lung cancers, there is not so much evidence that


it works as well on others. They say the NHS budget isn't


limitless and they have to prioritise funding on treatlent


that is already proven to work. This week, Tessa Munt asked


the Prime Minister to meet her to discuss why there has been ` 70


decrease in the number of c`ncers What we have done is introdtced


the Cancer Drugs Fund which is not just for drugs


but also for innovative tre`tment. I know there have been changes


as well in the way that radhotherapy is carried out and new technology


that is being used, which m`y be part of the explanation for the


figures that she gives, but I'm very Meanwhile, though,


campaigners fear the governlent is I can't understand why,


when it's a matter of life or death, people aren't being referred


for this life`saving treatmdnt. You know, I know people are


dying who need this treatment. Jennifer Woodford ending


that report there. Ben, you were Health Ministdr


for a time under Labour. We've got the machines here


and yet NHS England isn't ftnding Well, it sounds very worrying and


particularly disappointing given that the Prime Minister acttally


engaged with the English rugby star Lawrence Dallaglio to help work with


NHS England ` his mother, of course, died of cancer ` to spread out


and roll out this treatment and he seems to have changed


his mind in the last year or so I can only think because


of the huge financial crisis that is affecting not just NHS Engl`nd


but trusts here in the South West. Most of our trusts are now


in huge deficit. Devon CCG and local hospitals are


in the red seriously, so they are having to make very


difficult decisions like thhs. Anne Marie,


is this the cost`cutting me`sures Actually, in many ways,


I share Ben's concerns. I had a constituent come to me,


he had prostate cancer, so this wasn't life and death,


but it was all about, you know, incontinence and fertility, so he


went abroad to get the treatment. But actually Cyber Knife was


developed in my constituencx so I know the inventor and I know


the team so, for me, it is ` great shame that something inventdd


in Britain isn't really being used. It's a shame that is the case


but for somebody who needs ht for But I think what's happened here


is the procurement mechanisl. When I've spoken to the people


involved in this what they have said is the way procurement oper`te at


the moment, the large organhsations are procuring from big organisations


that can provide all of Hang on,


we've got machines in the hospitals, often bought by charities,


which are just not being usdd. Even with procurement, therd is a


problem in the system, isn't there? That seems to show


the NHS isn't working in thhs case. What you're saying is absolttely


right, it is criminal that they re not being used, and systems need


to be put in place to changd that. I agree with Ben and you on that


but I don't think the probldm is But I'm absolutely convinced that


David is going to come under a lot of pressure from all


of us to make sure that cancer is properly treated, particularly if it


is a product which, frankly, has Ben, does this sort of thing make


you worry about the direction I think this is part


of a deteriorating picture. We are already seeing waiting times


and waiting lists for routine operations grow exponentially longer


than they have been for six years. We are seeing much longer w`its


at A departments. We are beginning to see


the impact of the government's disastrous ?3 billion reorg`nisation


of the health service. There were problems under L`bour,


weren't there? There were actually budget


crises under Labour. Even with a surplus


in the system there were problems. Difficult decisions


always have to be made. The NHS does not have


a limitless pot. When we left government,


public satisfaction with the NHS was at record levels and


waiting times were at record lows. Those are both now going


in the wrong direction. Are you worrying, Anne Marid Morris,


about where No, I think the NHS is in vdry


safe hands with a Conservathve government and actually herd we


have statistics versus stathstics. We are almost rerunning what


happened in the House of Colmons in terms of the statistics produced


by David and the statistics produced Basically we are both


saying different things. According to our research,


the waiting time issue is actually better than it was under Labour


which is not what you The truth of it is,


where do you measure it? I think the difference is it is


about making sure that people, when they actually come in and fhrst


interface, they get treated quickly. If you look at it at that ldvel


certainly, our record is better Talking about statistics,


I'll give you some. We have, here, the third lowest


cancer survival rate in Europe and many hospitals are using this


type of treatment routinely. One hospital


in France treats more patients with this kind of radiotherapy than all


hospitals in England combindd. I agree with you, and it


clearly has to be sorted out. But a lot of this,


it's not just about treatment, If you actually look


at the research, you will see one of our challenges


is we do not diagnose early enough. I was talking to NHS England


earlier today to say what You have seen, I'm sure, thdre was


one lady in my constituency, she had been to her GP 19 times before


she then had to go privatelx. I spoke to NHS England and said this


has to be sorted out and thdy said, yes, we are getting a team together


to look at how we can work together Sarah Wallace, in your neighbouring


constituency, she now chairs the Commons Health Committed,


ex`GP, says the NHS does nedd more It is an important issue, isn't it,


the NHS? There is nothing more important


than health and education. Clearly, if there was


a bottomless pit of cash, you would I think the important thing is to


make sure we use the money we have more effectively


and I think that is the discussion Ben, very briefly, do you think we


may have to face facts that soon we could have to start paying


for things like a visit to the GP? I think people would be


against that. I think the principle that the NHS


is there for people when they need it is absolutely


paramount, certainly for thd Labour Party, and that would be very unfair


on poorer people, for example. But we didn't need to have this huge


reorganisation That's where a lot


of the money has gone. I think we could also much better


integrate health and social care. And we could deliver more


for the same amount of monex Tourism businesses in Cornw`ll claim


a ban on term time holidays for In September new legislation came


into force introducing fines for parents who take their children


out of school in term time. But tourism leaders say confusion


over the law is costing thel money and they've have written to Michael


Gove calling for it to be changed. Justin Spreckley lets 12


self`catering holiday cottages In previous years,


the place has been full of families with young children


but this year is different. We've got a three`bedroom and


a one`bedroom cottage free `nd we the one other family with school`age


children here are from Scotland Since the government changed


the law in September, many families in England have been


put off by the threat of fines. We've experienced changes


in our statistics last year against this year of a 27% drop in families


coming during the school term time. I'm sure


the government's legislation was well intended but did they `ctually


look at the implications? In Looe, families with school`age


children seem few and far bdtween. Looe is doing very well


at the moment with the numbdr of people here


but we need to those familids which You'll see young families whth


tots and you'll see older couples. It's the fact that larger f`milies


are missing in the demographics This family from Birmingham


visited Cornwall last year, too Mum


and dad have brought six`ye`r`old Jack and nine`year`old Tamara back


during term time to save money. They have perfect


attendance records. They don't have sick days,


they are not late, We work hard to get them to


school in the right fashion. I think of it


as someone who is continuously doing He is in year one,


she's in year four. The irony is while Cornwall has


tended not to fine parents who take their children on holiday dtring the


school term, tourism businesses here say they are suffering becatse other


local education authorities do. Recent figures show that whhlst


nobody was fined in Cornwall during the current academic year,


900 parents were fined in Ddvon Tourism leaders years say it's this


kind of inconsistency which is causing confusion


and they have written to the Education Secretary calling


for a more common`sense approach. The problem is I think therd's not


enough clarification for the head teachers or parents,


even the councillors, and everybody So parents are frightened


of taking them out of school, heads are frightened of letting them.


It needs to be sorted. These people have been encotraged


over a number of years to accommodate famhlies


and the accommodation is now empty So we have to look


for a solution because I can't have The Department for Education


maintains that local authorhties must work with schools to sdt


criteria for issuing fines and that they should take


a tough stance on tackling `bsence. Few here would argue with


the principle. They say in practice


the confusion must be cleardd up. Anne Marie, I know you are


a big champion of small bushnesses. Will you push to have


this problem cleared up? It needs clearing up becausd clearly


we are very dependent on totrism in the South West but I think there are


two pieces to the jigsaw puzzle and That was the fact that in Scotland


they have different times If you look at Germany and France,


Germany divides the country into five different regions and they


take holidays at different times. If we did that, we would not have


this real concentration of just at one time of year.


That would help... This has been suggested for years,


hasn't it? I think it is the absolute


requirement to try to ensurd kids get the time in school they need


and get better results, bec`use it is proven that absenteeism reduces


academic success. But we must look


at different ways of doing ht. I would agree with the individuals


in your clip that we need some clarity because that, in part,


is why we've got this difference We need it to be clear that


the headteacher is able to look at the individual circumstances


of that family and make a sdnsible, informed decision.


The problem is... Do you support Michael Gove in this


move to fine parents? The more you take children out of school in term


time, the more their achievdment suffer. I don't think we should


encourage families to take oldies in term time. Some people in the clip


seems to be suggesting that. It is unfair on law`abiding familhes who


pay the full price. The majority of families don't do this, thex pay the


full price. Labour is committed to introducing a German type sxstem


where holidays are staggered over a three or four month period hn the


summer so no one part of thd country is on holiday at the same thme. That


is also the answer to getting prices down. Do you think this is taking


power away from parents. If children are taken abroad, and they lay


otherwise not be able to if it was to expensive, it is an amazhng


educational experience, new language. Parents that make an


educational case for a trip and make it in good time... That is not


exceptional circumstances. Headteachers use their discretion.


And MPs have been discussing new laws to tackle slavery


following a campaign by the former Conservative MP for Totnes.


They're probably within a mhle of where we live.


They have been found in Plylouth, Exeter, Torbay.


That is our round`up of the political week. This growth fund


money to help small as this is, how can people get their hands on that


and how soon is it coming? Ht is being sorted out at the momdnt. A


number of businesses are benefiting. The sausage company in my


constituency is benefiting. It is nearly ?19 million. It incltdes


Bristol, which means we get less in the far south`west. Is that a


problem? We should see how ht finally gets carved up. The detail


is yet to be worked out, sole has`been but the rest are still to


be looked at. It is a large amount of money and the important thing is


that it is good news for thd south`west. Any regional devolution


of power is good but this is far less than Labour is proposing, under


plans which would give more decision`making to the regions. It


is about three times more than the government proposes. It is not new


money, just devolving money from London the same as the


Conservatives. Lord Heseltine, who recommended this, our proposals are


closer to his levels than the government's. I think there is a


halfway house between both of us there. Thanks to our guests. Now we


go back to Andrew. You can `lways watch the programme on iPlaxer


during will keep a bit safer. That is all


the time we have. So, plenty happening in Parliament


this coming week, including a controversial bill to make


so-called assisted dying legal and Lord Carey has intervened in the


assisted dying debate. Will it make a difference? It will make a


difference because we have established in the House of Lords, I


am not sure who they speak for and why they should have a privileged


position, but he was a big opponent and has made a change of heart. The


fact that the Daily Mail has printed this shows this is a big


intervention. The Bill being pushed through, is it now on the agenda? I


think it is. There are international examples of assisted dying


elsewhere. The state of Oregon passed a Bill similar to this in the


1990s and things have not got out of control. That has not been an


expansion or abuse. It has settled down and become part of the


furniture. That makes it easier for this Bill, to make the case for it.


Religious people may still have a principled objection but most other


people have a practical objection, which is how to put in place


safeguards to deal with unscrupulous relatives or anyone else who wants


to abuse this right? Once a controversial issue is only being


opposed for practical reasons it is on its way to getting its way. What


is the division, is it the Church against everybody else? Is it a


right and left division? What is stopping it? It is a very difficult


moral issue and there are people who can have genuinely held Christian


beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who can be on both sides. I think that


the Lord Carey intervention is potentially a game changer not just


because he is a former Archbishop of Canterbury but because he was on the


Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of England. That is quite a big move.


The response was to say, please withdraw your bell and let us have a


royal Commission. The Supreme Court kicked the ball back to Parliament


when they rejected the cases of three people who had been taking the


case and said, we could say that banning the right to life is against


the European Court of Human Rights, but it is a moral issue and an issue


for Parliament. Parliament needs to decide. The data act that is going


to be pushed through Parliament In record time. To comply with a


European court judgement. Tom Watson and David Davis, some dissent. Are


you so prized with how united the establishment, left, right and


centre is? No. There is a great quote saying this has been enacted


under the something must be done act and that captures it exactly. Even


Cameron says he does not want to look people in the eye and say that


he did not do everything he could. There is no end to the power of


surveillance. It is all was about drawing a distinction. I am always


suspicious when politicians look something up and said, we have all


agreed. Are there at the centre is right or is the political


establishment right? I think the establishment is right. I think it


is stronger than other issues. We are in a unique position where all


three political parties have relatively recent experience of


government so they now that security threats are not made up by


unscrupulous people. The legislation being proposed is not dramatic, it


is to fill a gap that was created. I do not see the political


controversy. All three political parties support it. David Davis and


Liberty are against that, and always are. Would you not have expected...


The Lib Dems are in government, but a bit more rebellion on the Labour


backbenches? There is no political controversy put outside parliament


there's quite a lot of controversy about this. My paper has taken an


interest in this. It is interesting, it does not feel, it is not a


1950s, three public school boys setting, let us have this deal. The


Liberal Democrats and Labour have serious questions. There's going to


be a sunset clause that will run out in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who


asked pretty tough questions, have said there are assurances. Ed


Miliband did not go to public school.


For many English football fans, tonight's World Cup final presents


How do you pick between two traditional foes


Well, if you're a political obsessive, like these


three, you could always back the nation according to how it votes.


The website LabourList has produced a political guide to the tournament.


At the beginning of the tournament, it was a fairly balanced playing


field politically with 15 left wing and 17 right-wing countries. England


found themselves isolated in a group with three left-wing countries. That


was the least of their problems There was a clear domination of


democratic regimes over authoritarian with only six of


oratory and countries making it through to the finals and the only


all authoritarian tie was dubbed the worst match of the World Cup. By the


second round 16 teams remained. The left had a clear advantage with


nine, seven from the right and authoritarian countries all but


wiped out. Two representatives remained. Both were beaten by


European democracies. By the semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A


right-wing Protestant Europe taking on Catholics South America. With one


victory apiece, Germany knocking out Brazil and Argentina beating the


Dutch, tonight's final repeats that pattern. Who will win? Angela


Merkel's Germany or Argentina? We're joined now


by Britain's only Labour adviser Should we read political


significance in to the fact that the only time England has won the World


Cup was under a Labour government? Of course. The problem is we did not


qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a Labour government. We have had some


pretty shoddy results under a Labour government. As someone under the


left, are you backing Argentina Absolutely not. I do not think it


has anything to do with politics. It is a bit of fun. People should


choose it is Don Hoop plays the best football and the Germans have been


fantastic. They were great in 2 10 as well. They started this model in


2008 and that is the sort of thing people should be supporting. Who


should a Eurosceptic support? I would not say Argentina because that


is the country that has tried to seize British sovereign territory


within my lifetime. You were not around for the Blitz. Believe it or


not, I was not. There is a strong political case to support Germany.


They are probably going to win the World Cup with a clear of -- with


players of Polish origin. That sort of cultural change they have forced


themselves to go through... You talk about them being right wing, but in


fact the way that the German league is structured, and I am an expert,


is based on ownership. It is very different from the Premier League.


It is about football as a usual good. The ticket prices are lower.


The fans are involved in running the club. It is a model that all English


football clubs should emulate. Germany had a strong football team


under centre right governments and centre left governments and a


coalition. A strong football team and a strong economy. The


Conservative MP who is the arch Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of


the European Union and was for a few weeks ago when people were making


jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker he was outraged and said you should not


do that, so he could happily support Germany. What was interesting about


the authoritarian and democratic regimes, what is great is that the


World Cup is run by this open and democratic organisation Fifa. It is


similar to the EU in many regards. Two countries led by women. Maybe


gender is the thing. We did not win under Margaret Thatcher. There's one


big difference with the EU, you cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go


to a European summit. Did you know that Italy won two world cups under


Mussolini? Can we draw any conclusions between a political


system and the performance of the football team? You can draw certain


parallels between maybe national cliches, so the Germans are


efficient and effective, which might reflect and the English are very


polite so we let everyone score first and go into the second round.


We put ourselves at the back of the queue. Is England going to qualify


for the European? We are going to win the European Championship. The


first country Scotland have to play is Germany. What could possibly go


wrong? Who is going to win? Germany. Germany. I am going to put a few bob


on Argentina. Are you going to be watching? Absolutely. Thank you


This is the last Sunday Politics for the summer.


But we'll be back in early autumn and our first programme will be live


from Scotland, the weekend before the referendum


The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at noon and we'll bring you


the last PMQs before the summer on Wednesday morning from 11:30am.


Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless


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