21/09/2014 Sunday Politics South West


21/09/2014

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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:09.:00:12.

for their annual conference as British politics `djusts to what

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the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

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Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading norph

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But what about Home Rule for England?

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Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

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us why he is stepping `own afper losing Thursday's vote. And wa've

:01:12.:01:16.

In the South West. people who want to be Labour

:01:17.:01:28.

The Conservatives who think Cameron has promised the Scots too luch

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And councils are told to provide more official sites for gypsies

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powers and more freedom to spand. But what is the next devolution step

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for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the

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business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,

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Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to

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other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,

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but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and

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enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when

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it comes Scotland a privileged position when

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of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,

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the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It

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has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that

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they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only

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votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core

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justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the

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House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -

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cautiously. issue. That was very cautious. -

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English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs

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get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London

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and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were

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before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed

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in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and

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the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the

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time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that

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would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see

:05:21.:05:26.

off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour

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backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws

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Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases

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unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to

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the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about

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20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a

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coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to

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be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should

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probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.

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But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one

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piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep

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something called the Barnett Formula.

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It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.

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And it's how the UK government decides how much

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public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

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It's controversial, because it's led to public spending

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being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.

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Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.

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I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the

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Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page

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of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial

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devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible

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not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been

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promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,

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but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern

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Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue

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across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We

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have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to

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England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount

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spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West

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and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the

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elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and

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the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a

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sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the

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Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in

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contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would

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confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union

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on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft

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poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect

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and if anything was counter-productive to the overall

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result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted

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for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the

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promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would

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have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal

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Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett

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Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,

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and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's

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trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in

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rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK

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-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending

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formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the

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oil revenues it sends to London Scotland is only getting back on

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spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that

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suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let

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me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the

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Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A

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huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting

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North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need

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to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the

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Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and

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grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we

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need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,

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when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local

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authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland

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must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The

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Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for

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Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't

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he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?

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Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the

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heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth

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is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and

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English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot

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of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is

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unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should

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deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let s

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deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they

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locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for

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joining us. The man responsible

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for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within

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touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic

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announcements, and he gave us another on Friday

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when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute

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to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to

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Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with

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the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole

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place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what

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you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them

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here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy

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Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the

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turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the

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electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare

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Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,

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and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together

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campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in

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100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you

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think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around

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five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's

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biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for

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areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have

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you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many

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copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes

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campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one

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of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,

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has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC

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has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the

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no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the

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numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in

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this referendum on independence The result, in Fife, has taken the no

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campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum

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is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has

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said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of

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the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more

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devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.

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Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish

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Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,

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as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on

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these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same

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pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we

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might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?

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Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not

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next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex

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Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my

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time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,

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and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the

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Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.

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Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows

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no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in

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Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to

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resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it

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Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we

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were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I

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considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch

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time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not

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really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have

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to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility

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and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need

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a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,

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you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future

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political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP

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and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they

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would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the

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campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were

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going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the

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campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought

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we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the

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fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at

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Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real

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thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of

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people that had been moving across to independence saw within that a

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reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the

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perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only

:17:08.:17:13.

five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city

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There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an

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enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,

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though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In

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Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is

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what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,

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leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong

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and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do

:17:51.:17:54.

a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been

:17:55.:17:59.

leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give

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somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that

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well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the

:18:09.:18:14.

national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,

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the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the

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referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the

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political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met

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just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that

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there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.

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Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any

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campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer

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not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be

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called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I

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will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,

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broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political

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campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an

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energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.

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It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which

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carried the Yes Campaign so far almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch

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put his Scottish Sun behind you would have that made the difference?

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If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not

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say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure

:19:47.:19:51.

about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other

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papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish

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independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced

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and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers I

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would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We

:20:16.:20:18.

certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I

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think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have

:20:24.:20:28.

liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if

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you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he

:20:40.:20:44.

defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has

:20:45.:20:48.

always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that

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can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union for

:20:54.:20:58.

example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would

:20:59.:21:01.

argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they

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are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are

:21:08.:21:11.

doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You

:21:12.:21:16.

don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to

:21:17.:21:21.

their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing

:21:22.:21:23.

on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change

:21:24.:21:28.

in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in

:21:29.:21:33.

carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from

:21:34.:21:37.

UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England

:21:38.:21:39.

which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English

:21:40.:21:44.

matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable

:21:45.:21:49.

object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.

:21:50.:21:54.

The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the

:21:55.:21:57.

last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now

:21:58.:22:03.

engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded

:22:04.:22:08.

to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that

:22:09.:22:14.

are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching

:22:15.:22:18.

this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the

:22:19.:22:24.

opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the

:22:25.:22:30.

back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for

:22:31.:22:38.

the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from

:22:39.:22:46.

their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I

:22:47.:22:51.

think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There

:22:52.:22:55.

have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%

:22:56.:23:00.

increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than

:23:01.:23:06.

that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the

:23:07.:23:16.

opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from

:23:17.:23:20.

politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday

:23:21.:23:26.

coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,

:23:27.:23:33.

which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line

:23:34.:23:36.

of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,

:23:37.:23:41.

rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in

:23:42.:23:49.

the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.

:23:50.:23:56.

So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see

:23:57.:24:00.

you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?

:24:01.:24:07.

Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of

:24:08.:24:12.

Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to

:24:13.:24:15.

serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I

:24:16.:24:20.

have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a

:24:21.:24:24.

chore. I'm not saying they didn t do it properly, I am sure they did But

:24:25.:24:31.

I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of

:24:32.:24:33.

Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good

:24:34.:24:37.

observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with

:24:38.:24:40.

being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it

:24:41.:24:51.

will never be Lord Salmond? Yes Thanks for joining us. Great

:24:52.:25:01.

pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over the

:25:02.:25:05.

next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven

:25:06.:25:09.

months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what

:25:10.:25:15.

are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for

:25:16.:25:20.

the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an

:25:21.:25:22.

exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.

:25:23.:25:28.

Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public

:25:29.:25:31.

spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them

:25:32.:25:35.

want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.

:25:36.:25:40.

18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the

:25:41.:25:44.

number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to

:25:45.:25:50.

immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with

:25:51.:25:53.

trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too

:25:54.:25:58.

close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the

:25:59.:26:03.

nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the

:26:04.:26:08.

railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their

:26:09.:26:16.

preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for

:26:17.:26:22.

the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many

:26:23.:26:28.

left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of

:26:29.:26:32.

candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in

:26:33.:26:35.

terms of what is left and right I think they see it in terms of what

:26:36.:26:39.

is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking

:26:40.:26:44.

about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the

:26:45.:26:47.

last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working

:26:48.:26:51.

very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are

:26:52.:26:54.

talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they

:26:55.:26:59.

want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to

:27:00.:27:01.

re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much

:27:02.:27:03.

immigration, they don't think there is too much

:27:04.:27:06.

Trident. These are don't think there is too much

:27:07.:27:55.

not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You

:27:56.:28:01.

described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you

:28:02.:28:04.

that I actually think a lot of those positions are

:28:05.:28:07.

that I actually think a lot of those their children. Too many people do

:28:08.:29:31.

not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about

:29:32.:29:35.

the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the

:29:36.:29:38.

future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I

:29:39.:29:42.

don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in

:29:43.:29:52.

terms of who runs the next government. That one of your

:29:53.:29:55.

candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the

:29:56.:29:57.

unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have

:29:58.:30:02.

spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any

:30:03.:30:07.

different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people

:30:08.:30:10.

working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of

:30:11.:30:14.

journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been

:30:15.:30:18.

brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should

:30:19.:30:22.

be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?

:30:23.:30:27.

I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you

:30:28.:30:30.

look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM

:30:31.:30:35.

Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership

:30:36.:30:40.

with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.

:30:41.:30:44.

I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be

:30:45.:30:49.

closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our

:30:50.:30:57.

relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do

:30:58.:31:01.

you need a constitutional conversation where you have to

:31:02.:31:04.

discuss whether English people voting on English matters is

:31:05.:31:07.

unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,

:31:08.:31:10.

but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the

:31:11.:31:18.

Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of

:31:19.:31:24.

the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't

:31:25.:31:28.

want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity

:31:29.:31:31.

where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK

:31:32.:31:36.

Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it

:31:37.:31:40.

is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes

:31:41.:31:44.

out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see

:31:45.:31:50.

it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been

:31:51.:31:54.

around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making

:31:55.:31:57.

a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not

:31:58.:32:02.

just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can

:32:03.:32:09.

vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport

:32:10.:32:13.

is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of

:32:14.:32:16.

competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to

:32:17.:32:20.

them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different

:32:21.:32:24.

MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is

:32:25.:32:27.

happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people

:32:28.:32:31.

politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities

:32:32.:32:35.

and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in

:32:36.:32:40.

Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in

:32:41.:32:43.

bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed

:32:44.:32:48.

before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.

:32:49.:32:53.

That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to

:32:54.:32:56.

devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being

:32:57.:33:00.

decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax

:33:01.:33:05.

powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper

:33:06.:33:08.

being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put

:33:09.:33:15.

forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you

:33:16.:33:18.

haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I

:33:19.:33:22.

can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the

:33:23.:33:26.

principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will

:33:27.:33:31.

have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the

:33:32.:33:33.

Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it

:33:34.:33:39.

enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales,

:33:40.:33:43.

which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England

:33:44.:33:47.

get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go -

:33:48.:33:52.

local government spending playing out in this Parliament, we have

:33:53.:33:54.

looked at what the government has done which is having already

:33:55.:33:58.

deprived communities having money taken away from them and wealthier

:33:59.:34:02.

communities are getting more. We accept that the Barnett Formula has

:34:03.:34:04.

worked well. How has ip accept that the Barnett Formula has

:34:05.:34:06.

worked well. How has it works accept that the Barnett Formula has

:34:07.:34:09.

worked well. How has ip works well? There is a cross parliamentary

:34:10.:34:12.

consensus as they don't know shat to do about it. Why has ip works well,

:34:13.:34:15.

do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm

:34:16.:34:22.

not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --

:34:23.:34:23.

government spending. It look at overall underspend --

:34:24.:34:24.

government spending. Ip is per capita spending in Scotland, shich

:34:25.:34:31.

is way ahead of per capita spanding in Wales, but per capita incomes in

:34:32.:34:34.

Scotland are way ahead of Walas. Why is that fair Labour politician? We

:34:35.:34:40.

have said we want to have mora equitable distribution. You haven't,

:34:41.:34:44.

you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure

:34:45.:34:47.

necessarily punishing Scotlan` is the way to go. The way that this

:34:48.:34:52.

debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish peopla? I

:34:53.:34:56.

want to be clear, I am delighped with the result we have got. Phe

:34:57.:35:00.

unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of

:35:01.:35:04.

the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up

:35:05.:35:07.

different nations of the UK acainst each other goes complepely

:35:08.:35:09.

different nations of the UK acainst each other goes completely against

:35:10.:35:11.

what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and se

:35:12.:35:13.

over the last two years, and we shouldn't have any truck with it.

:35:14.:35:16.

Coming onto the announcement on the minimum wage, you would increase it

:35:17.:35:21.

by ?1 50 to take it to ? , which would be over five years Thap is

:35:22.:35:25.

all you are going to do over bive years. Have you worked out how much

:35:26.:35:31.

of this increase will be clawad back in taxation and fewer benefits? Work

:35:32.:35:38.

has been done on it. How much? I can't give you an exact figura. The

:35:39.:35:44.

policy pays for itself. The way we have looked at this, we looke` at

:35:45.:35:48.

the government figures, and ib people are earning more, they would

:35:49.:35:51.

therefore be paying more in income tax and they will be receivinc less

:35:52.:35:54.

tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out lass in

:35:55.:35:58.

tax credits, so we are confidant that this will pay for itself. I'm

:35:59.:36:02.

not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid

:36:03.:36:07.

workers will stop they will gat an extra 30p per hour -- about the

:36:08.:36:11.

payment. How much of the 30p po they get to keep? In terms of what they

:36:12.:36:16.

get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our

:36:17.:36:21.

proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at

:36:22.:36:25.

the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keap? I

:36:26.:36:34.

cannot give you an exact figure. Why don't you give me an exact figure if

:36:35.:36:37.

you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest

:36:38.:36:40.

paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down

:36:41.:36:43.

this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 0 or 60%

:36:44.:36:50.

and they will not keep most ob this increase you are talking aboup. I

:36:51.:36:54.

don't accept your figures. Bup you haven't got any of your own. I just

:36:55.:36:57.

don't have any in my haad haven't got any of your own. I just

:36:58.:36:59.

don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out

:37:00.:37:04.

policies before you announce phem? Of course we think our policias

:37:05.:37:07.

before we announce them but wa are confident people have more in their

:37:08.:37:08.

pocket and will be better off confident people have more in their

:37:09.:37:09.

pocket and will be betper off with pocket and will be better off with

:37:10.:37:12.

the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise

:37:13.:37:14.

employers to pay a living waga as well. At the end of the day, as I

:37:15.:37:19.

said, the economy is recovering, great, but we know, at the moment,

:37:20.:37:23.

it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're

:37:24.:37:24.

number of your viewers and we?re determined to do something about it.

:37:25.:37:28.

The status quo is not an option. And even joining me. Twice in thrae

:37:29.:37:32.

days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,

:37:33.:37:35.

not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:36.:37:37.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scopland

:37:38.:37:40.

who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minupes,

:37:41.:37:43.

we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing

:37:44.:37:48.

Labour as their conference starts First though,

:37:49.:37:50.

the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher,

:37:51.:38:02.

coming up on the Sunday Polhtics We'll look at the thorny issue

:38:03.:38:04.

of finding suitable sites I'm joined by the

:38:05.:38:09.

leader of Mebyon Kernow ` Councillor Dick Cole, and

:38:10.:38:16.

Conservative MP Sarah Newton. Welcome, both of you,

:38:17.:38:18.

to the programme. Let?s begin by looking

:38:19.:38:20.

at the implications for us Dick, you've spent

:38:21.:38:22.

your entire political life `rguing Here you are handing in

:38:23.:38:27.

a petition more than a decade ago. Like Alex Salmond,

:38:28.:38:33.

you've talked a lot about hdritage If Alex Salmond has failed to make

:38:34.:38:35.

the case for his nation, I was proud to produce a document to

:38:36.:39:00.

take the Downing Street, and it is a shame that the previous govdrnment

:39:01.:39:04.

refused to act upon it. Scotland voted no for independence, but they

:39:05.:39:12.

are still pushing for more powers. This encourages me that we should be

:39:13.:39:16.

pushing as well for more powers devolved to Cornwall. So yot do not

:39:17.:39:22.

want independence for Cornw`ll, but you want devolved powers. Does this

:39:23.:39:27.

make it more likely? All of the political parties are talking about

:39:28.:39:31.

the future of the UK, so let's have a respectful wide`ranging ddbate

:39:32.:39:36.

about the constituent parts of the UK, there are democracies and

:39:37.:39:38.

economies and how we're going to the future. Itasca is to encour`ge

:39:39.:39:43.

people to look at the option of a Cornish assembly. Where you hoping

:39:44.:39:56.

that this No vote would put the end to these discussions. This hs just

:39:57.:40:05.

the start, and I want to sed more of this. I am delighted that Scottish

:40:06.:40:09.

people decided to stay part of the union, but the job now... So you

:40:10.:40:13.

would be happy for a Cornish assembly? I do not think right now

:40:14.:40:19.

it is the right choice for Cornwall. I think what we should be

:40:20.:40:26.

doing is working with the powers, making the case for more powers to

:40:27.:40:30.

be devolved, and making this work. How can you make the case for more

:40:31.:40:36.

powers but not to a Cornish assembly? To the council and MPs.

:40:37.:40:46.

This is what we need to do `ll over England and the United Kingdom, the

:40:47.:40:51.

power back into people 's h`nds Let us stick with the Scottish

:40:52.:40:52.

Referendum. It's been focusing minds

:40:53.:40:53.

on how public money is spre`d out Some South West business le`ders

:40:54.:40:55.

and politicians have been ottraged by the Prime Minister's prolise to

:40:56.:41:00.

keep a formula which means people here get considerably less than

:41:01.:41:03.

those in Scotland. Welcome to the Cinderella rdgion.

:41:04.:41:13.

Bottlenecks are familiar sight on main roads in and out of thd

:41:14.:41:19.

south`west. The Scottish Referendum has highlighted some uncomfortable

:41:20.:41:22.

public spending gaps. Treastry figures show that Scots get ?10 000

:41:23.:41:28.

per head, whereas in the sotth`west we get around 8000 each. Th`t is

:41:29.:41:33.

nearly 2000 a year less. Business leaders say that this is sc`ndalous.

:41:34.:41:40.

They say that if we had a fdver share of the pot, this road would be

:41:41.:41:48.

a motorway by now. The investment, fear and proportionate investment,

:41:49.:41:52.

would have meant that the chty as big as Plymouth, it would not be

:41:53.:42:00.

struggling with a road that is not a motorway. That would not have

:42:01.:42:06.

happened. In Scotland they `re spending ?3 billion making ` dual

:42:07.:42:11.

carriageway, creating 5000 jobs In the south`west, business le`ders are

:42:12.:42:19.

still pleading for 300 millhon, to upgrade Road, generating 21,000

:42:20.:42:23.

jobs. Many people blame the Barnett formula. Barnett himself saxs it is

:42:24.:42:30.

Hawaii Scotland gets free prescriptions and student fdes. I am

:42:31.:42:36.

not proud of having my name attached to something that is no soul and a

:42:37.:42:41.

fearful stop `` and fear. Btt the three main party leaders made a

:42:42.:42:49.

promise, if they rejected independence, The Barnett formula

:42:50.:42:52.

would stay. Why did Mr Cameron and Mr Miller band make a promise to

:42:53.:42:59.

maintain The Barnett formul`? `` Ed Miliband. We are already well under

:43:00.:43:05.

in relation to the Scottish economy. That worries me. Cameron cotld be

:43:06.:43:10.

faced with an army of angry backbenchers. I think that we need

:43:11.:43:14.

to reflect on the implications of having The Barnett formula hn

:43:15.:43:18.

perpetuity. I do not think that would be to the advantage of us in

:43:19.:43:22.

the south`west. But does he have a get out clause? If you look at the

:43:23.:43:29.

small print, it may be guar`nteed, but only while that is needdd,

:43:30.:43:35.

whatever that means. It is time for our United Kingdom to come together

:43:36.:43:38.

and move forward. A vital p`rt of that will be a balanced settlement,

:43:39.:43:46.

30 people in Scotland and importantly, to everyone in England,

:43:47.:43:49.

Wales and Northern Ireland `s well. `` fear to people in Scotland. He

:43:50.:43:56.

has promised to shake up thd constitution. Giving the sotth`west

:43:57.:44:00.

more money for things like roads is one thing, but who should gdt the

:44:01.:44:03.

cash? The Cornish assembly, an English Parliament or our existing

:44:04.:44:11.

councils? One thing is for sure the can of worms has well and truly been

:44:12.:44:13.

opened. Indeed. And to discuss this we are

:44:14.:44:22.

joined by the UKIP chairman. Let us start with The Barnett formtla. Is

:44:23.:44:27.

it unfair for people down hdre that Scottish people get more money? Yes,

:44:28.:44:32.

it is ludicrous. Lord Barnett has made it absolutely clear th`t it

:44:33.:44:35.

should have been caught red of years ago. It was only put in place to

:44:36.:44:39.

last about three years. What should be done now? This promise h`s been

:44:40.:44:44.

made. It is interesting bec`use now I see there is a wriggle gohng on

:44:45.:44:50.

about what was the promise? The fundamental thing here is to get out

:44:51.:44:55.

of this absolutely dreadful campaign to try to keep Scotland in the

:44:56.:45:00.

union, Mr Cameron and his colleagues just threw something at it last week

:45:01.:45:05.

and they have opened more c`ns of worms. Clearly, the funding has got

:45:06.:45:12.

to be fairer. It is ridiculous that the south`west receives less than

:45:13.:45:19.

London. Do you continue to support The Barnett formula? One thhng we

:45:20.:45:26.

can all agree on, politicians must keep pledges. What upsets pdople is

:45:27.:45:30.

if politicians promise something and do not deliver. So what has been

:45:31.:45:35.

pledged must be delivered. Xou think he panicked? Was it a panic move? I

:45:36.:45:40.

am not second`guessing what was decided, but since the day H was

:45:41.:45:46.

elected, I decided to fight for the funding for Cornwall, and these gaps

:45:47.:45:51.

are not fearful stop if we honour the pledge, which is quite right,

:45:52.:45:59.

what happens for Cornwall? `` not fare. If the commitments were made

:46:00.:46:07.

for Scotland, they need to be made for England. We will the extra money

:46:08.:46:14.

come from? There has to be ` settlement across the whole of the

:46:15.:46:19.

UK, and that is what I will be fighting for as soon as we get back

:46:20.:46:24.

to Parliament, and I am surd MPs representing the rural areas of

:46:25.:46:29.

Britain, especially English counties, who historically have not

:46:30.:46:32.

been properly funded. The g`p has been closed. What would you think

:46:33.:46:39.

about The Barnett formula? Hf you had a Cornish assembly, do xou think

:46:40.:46:43.

in any way you would get thd same level of funding as Scotland? There

:46:44.:46:49.

needs to be needs `based funding for various areas. During the rdferendum

:46:50.:46:53.

debate, the Scottish Nation`lists were arguing that they were not

:46:54.:46:56.

being subsidised, they were generating that much financd into

:46:57.:47:00.

the Treasury because of the links to North Sea oil. So the debatd was

:47:01.:47:04.

very finely tuned, there were arguments on both sides. Wh`t

:47:05.:47:09.

argument could you make for Cornwall? It could be less loney

:47:10.:47:16.

that we get. That is the pohnt I was coming on to. The issue for us is

:47:17.:47:21.

the over centralised nature of the country in which we live. London and

:47:22.:47:27.

the south`east dominates, and takes most of the investment on the

:47:28.:47:32.

presentation `` takes most of the investment. On the presentation you

:47:33.:47:37.

were talking about transport. What about HS2? It serves London,

:47:38.:47:41.

ridiculous amount of money. We should be rebalancing the economy

:47:42.:47:44.

and demographic institutions of this country. Vince Cable said London is

:47:45.:47:51.

a great suction machine, sucking the life out of the rest of the country.

:47:52.:47:55.

That is true and we are subsidising them. You're nodding, is th`t

:47:56.:48:03.

because you support a Cornish assembly? No, but I agree whth what

:48:04.:48:08.

he is saying. The south`west receives a lower Barnett allocation

:48:09.:48:14.

than the rest of England. Wd are starved here, and HS2 sucks more

:48:15.:48:19.

economy into London from thd north, which does not help. In the last

:48:20.:48:26.

four years we fought very h`rd to get record levels into our transport

:48:27.:48:31.

infrastructure. We have been starved for decades. But we have so much.

:48:32.:48:42.

Let us look at the transport infrastructure issue. We have record

:48:43.:48:46.

labels of infrastructure in our roads and rail 's. Cornwall is

:48:47.:48:49.

definitely doing really well. But the point is the just ``

:48:50.:48:57.

disproportionate investment. Education, the NHS, this has to be

:48:58.:49:02.

tackled. Our children should have exactly the same as other children

:49:03.:49:07.

all across England. When will this happen? This is what my job is. As

:49:08.:49:11.

soon as we get back to Parlhament, we need to make the case. This is a

:49:12.:49:18.

great opportunity. David Caleron once a fair settlement for Dngland

:49:19.:49:24.

and Scotland. `` wants. Will be be a vote and when? Two there is a

:49:25.:49:30.

general election in May. But that will not necessarily cover this

:49:31.:49:33.

question, devolution, city `ssembly 's. What we will be doing is setting

:49:34.:49:40.

out exactly what is going to happen for this settlement. Making those

:49:41.:49:44.

proposals very clear over the weeks and months ahead. Is part of that is

:49:45.:49:52.

desire to have a difference in the controls of government, that will be

:49:53.:49:57.

welcome. The last ten Labour tried to do this, they were rejected. I am

:49:58.:50:02.

interested in improving the quality of people 's lives. UKIP wotld like

:50:03.:50:13.

an English Parliament, how would that work and what would it mean for

:50:14.:50:17.

the south`west? The most important thing, and we have to remember that

:50:18.:50:21.

what we have been fighting for for the last few weeks is to kedp the

:50:22.:50:27.

United Kingdom together, and we should not now, in a backlash,

:50:28.:50:30.

because of this mess, start splintering. We need fairness. We

:50:31.:50:36.

need English votes on English laws, but someone wise once said there is

:50:37.:50:41.

no question to which the answer is more politicians. If we start

:50:42.:50:48.

creating new layers of government and politicians with differdnt

:50:49.:50:50.

salaries and expenses, the people will be fed up of that. We have a

:50:51.:50:56.

parliament already, and movds to suggestions as to when we use the

:50:57.:51:00.

Parliament in Westminster, `nd this could be made fairer. Peopld are

:51:01.:51:07.

going to be fed up, extra l`yers of government we just do not nded. In

:51:08.:51:10.

Cornwall, we have a massive deficit. We do not have legislature that can

:51:11.:51:23.

change Wallace is. We have 023 councillors, in Somerset thdy have

:51:24.:51:27.

425, so we do not have the democracy we should be entitled to. I would

:51:28.:51:31.

like to take up a further point People talking about Westminster

:51:32.:51:37.

being an English Parliament three days a week, and a UK Parli`ment the

:51:38.:51:47.

other two days. In the paper the other day they were going to propose

:51:48.:51:52.

it was going to be a UK parliament Mondays and Fridays, and thd UK

:51:53.:52:04.

``... It is a very complicated argument, and they way to split it

:52:05.:52:09.

is an immensely complicated. It has been

:52:10.:54:16.

to court and moving travelldrs on. The problem is not going aw`y. We

:54:17.:54:19.

need to ensure there are safe places for them to stay when they `re

:54:20.:54:23.

travelling. And that they do not have to pool into car parks and fit

:54:24.:54:27.

all pitches, where the disrtpt the life around them. `` football

:54:28.:54:37.

pitches. The number of unauthorised sites are up by a quarter in

:54:38.:54:45.

Cornwall. The transit site was due to be here, but only last month the

:54:46.:54:49.

local planning committee refused to grant planning permission, leaving

:54:50.:54:52.

the local council with nowhdre official to direct gypsies `nd

:54:53.:54:57.

travellers to. The committed turned down the application, saying that it

:54:58.:55:03.

was unsustainable. It was too far from the town, and it would mean the

:55:04.:55:09.

loss of good farming land. There is the will to deliver transit sites

:55:10.:55:12.

because that is the best solution. Numerous areas in Cornwall get

:55:13.:55:18.

affected by unauthorised calpsites, and if we had an authorised one

:55:19.:55:22.

that would mitigate the problem is we are getting every year. `` the

:55:23.:55:29.

problems. Where there is a will there is usually away, but dven if

:55:30.:55:33.

councillors want to provide temporary, local opposition can

:55:34.:55:35.

often win out. Most people say that they should be

:55:36.:55:50.

able to go where they want to, but they do not want it where they live.

:55:51.:55:54.

This is a thorny problem th`t has been going on for all my life. I do

:55:55.:55:59.

think the best way to solve this is in the current range of polhcies,

:56:00.:56:03.

which give quite a lot of power to councils to move people on. We had

:56:04.:56:09.

travellers in Truro that have moved on. Sue the answer is to devolve

:56:10.:56:13.

powers to the council 's. Which is what we have done. Anything to do

:56:14.:56:21.

with shaping the local commtnity, houses built, I think these

:56:22.:56:29.

decisions are best made. Whdre communities can come togethdr and

:56:30.:56:32.

agree that this is a good place to put a transit site, there is

:56:33.:56:37.

financial support. There is already a grant. There is a ?60 million

:56:38.:56:41.

budget pot. All around the country there are far fewer unoffichal

:56:42.:56:46.

traveller sites now. It has been working around the country. The

:56:47.:56:53.

money is there. Why do we not have more of these sites? Is it just

:56:54.:56:59.

unpopular? No council wants to put sites where other people live. It is

:57:00.:57:07.

a difficult political issue. Over the last seven or eight years, we

:57:08.:57:12.

have delivered a high number of Gypsy pitches. Those our Prhvate

:57:13.:57:14.

pitches that have come forw`rd to the council, and the council has

:57:15.:57:25.

turned on them, then they h`ve gone through the official system.

:57:26.:57:33.

Travellers like to move and travel across boundaries. How can xou know

:57:34.:57:40.

there are enough `` ensure there are enough across each boundary? There

:57:41.:57:44.

are many contradictions going on as we speak. Cornwall has a target of

:57:45.:57:54.

how many it should be providing but it is quite contradictory. H think

:57:55.:57:57.

the big issue for a lot of local people is that the planning system

:57:58.:58:02.

is geared that it is possible to get a traveller site on land th`t would

:58:03.:58:07.

not otherwise be developed. As local politicians, you are faced with how

:58:08.:58:11.

can they have that in the fheld but my daughter cannot have a btngalow

:58:12.:58:15.

next to me in the field next door. These imbalances need to be

:58:16.:58:22.

addressed because it is not clear to a lot of people. Sadly, I h`ve to

:58:23.:58:28.

move on. Now, the regular round`up in 60 seconds.

:58:29.:58:38.

Reports that the nuclear power station being built in Somerset

:58:39.:58:43.

House been approved by the Duropean Commission. Unconfirmed but welcomed

:58:44.:58:47.

by the MP. We have got to grow up, tell Europe

:58:48.:58:51.

where to stick it and get into the job. Devon County Council threatened

:58:52.:58:58.

to close its rubbish tips to the people of Torbay. You should be able

:58:59.:59:05.

to take it wherever you want, regardless of where the centre is,

:59:06.:59:11.

whether it is across the border As the trial badger cull continues

:59:12.:59:16.

protesters are accused of h`rassing farmers. As soon as I turned the

:59:17.:59:20.

light on to go to bed or go to the sitting room, their torches come

:59:21.:59:25.

onto the Windows. The Plymotth University decision to spend 15 ,007

:59:26.:59:42.

Cheers was questioned. `` ?050, 00 on chair is. Let us look at these

:59:43.:59:51.

chairs. ?150,000. Is that good value for money. I think this is

:59:52.:59:59.

dreadfully sad. Lots of people in Cornwall after come to Plymouth

:00:00.:00:03.

University. Especially our nurses get trained here. It really saddens

:00:04.:00:09.

me about this reputational harm they are doing. They need to get their

:00:10.:00:13.

act together and focus on the students and serve their colmunity

:00:14.:00:15.

and stop making ridiculous decisions. Should it be possible to

:00:16.:00:22.

spend that sort of money on chairs? Should this not be stopped? I think

:00:23.:00:30.

it a massive `` it is a massive own goal. I do not think they even look

:00:31.:00:34.

particularly pretty. I have been working with my local community in a

:00:35.:00:41.

village hall, and we purchased 00 chairs for a hundred quid. @nd they

:00:42.:00:50.

are perfect. That is the end of Sunday Politics. Now, back to

:00:51.:00:51.

Andrew. Enjoy the rest the Conservative mayor's policy. No

:00:52.:00:58.

more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.

:00:59.:01:06.

Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined

:01:07.:01:08.

by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.

:01:09.:01:12.

I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.

:01:13.:01:17.

In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally

:01:18.:01:19.

the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.

:01:20.:01:22.

He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve

:01:23.:01:25.

Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish

:01:26.:01:37.

votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,

:01:38.:01:40.

why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament

:01:41.:01:45.

in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I

:01:46.:01:49.

certainly don't agree with that I campaign for powers to be given to

:01:50.:01:53.

the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?

:01:54.:01:56.

Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to

:01:57.:02:01.

Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a

:02:02.:02:09.

Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the

:02:10.:02:12.

alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and

:02:13.:02:17.

everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was

:02:18.:02:23.

my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year

:02:24.:02:29.

plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to

:02:30.:02:33.

turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if

:02:34.:02:36.

that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can

:02:37.:02:42.

get reform in a more federal structure, and even English

:02:43.:02:46.

parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the

:02:47.:02:49.

Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite

:02:50.:02:54.

radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in

:02:55.:02:58.

the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's

:02:59.:03:05.

assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they

:03:06.:03:07.

remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but

:03:08.:03:13.

don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their

:03:14.:03:18.

favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come

:03:19.:03:21.

up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page

:03:22.:03:28.

of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the

:03:29.:03:30.

time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you

:03:31.:03:34.

want real protection in England vote Conservative, and if you want

:03:35.:03:38.

Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is

:03:39.:03:42.

scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the

:03:43.:03:46.

constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same

:03:47.:03:50.

with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a

:03:51.:03:54.

fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years

:03:55.:03:58.

ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't

:03:59.:04:02.

mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are

:04:03.:04:07.

promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout

:04:08.:04:13.

of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The

:04:14.:04:18.

turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get

:04:19.:04:21.

people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation

:04:22.:04:25.

in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what

:04:26.:04:28.

you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they

:04:29.:04:33.

were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is

:04:34.:04:36.

about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in

:04:37.:04:39.

the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and

:04:40.:04:43.

you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,

:04:44.:04:46.

but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of

:04:47.:04:50.

power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.

:04:51.:04:53.

They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with

:04:54.:04:59.

what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up

:05:00.:05:03.

with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of

:05:04.:05:07.

city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a

:05:08.:05:10.

democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of

:05:11.:05:14.

Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of

:05:15.:05:19.

democratic link with the people I live in whole, and it stops on the

:05:20.:05:24.

boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from

:05:25.:05:29.

Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,

:05:30.:05:33.

and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city

:05:34.:05:37.

regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal

:05:38.:05:40.

structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with

:05:41.:05:43.

Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I

:05:44.:05:48.

believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options

:05:49.:05:52.

in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do

:05:53.:05:56.

in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will

:05:57.:05:59.

happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.

:06:00.:06:03.

You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,

:06:04.:06:07.

not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a

:06:08.:06:12.

separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English

:06:13.:06:17.

if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of

:06:18.:06:21.

Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put

:06:22.:06:25.

the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking

:06:26.:06:30.

about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do

:06:31.:06:33.

with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.

:06:34.:06:38.

Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.

:06:39.:06:41.

Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether

:06:42.:06:46.

it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the

:06:47.:06:49.

Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign

:06:50.:06:56.

lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to

:06:57.:07:00.

something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost

:07:01.:07:04.

Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to

:07:05.:07:09.

what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its

:07:10.:07:12.

different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about

:07:13.:07:17.

decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been

:07:18.:07:26.

thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is

:07:27.:07:29.

not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember

:07:30.:07:33.

covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping

:07:34.:07:38.

speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it

:07:39.:07:41.

was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not

:07:42.:07:45.

independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,

:07:46.:07:49.

an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that

:07:50.:07:53.

Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.

:07:54.:08:02.

In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on

:08:03.:08:09.

with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for

:08:10.:08:14.

30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I

:08:15.:08:18.

support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and

:08:19.:08:20.

make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources

:08:21.:08:25.

and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant

:08:26.:08:31.

today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in

:08:32.:08:35.

Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I

:08:36.:08:43.

can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What

:08:44.:08:50.

do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering

:08:51.:08:57.

about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,

:08:58.:09:00.

and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he

:09:01.:09:07.

started off on the minimum wage You are trying to deal with those left

:09:08.:09:12.

behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National

:09:13.:09:15.

Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved If

:09:16.:09:19.

you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you

:09:20.:09:22.

haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the

:09:23.:09:28.

priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that

:09:29.:09:31.

you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or

:09:32.:09:34.

paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives

:09:35.:09:40.

?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary

:09:41.:09:44.

people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the

:09:45.:09:48.

north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more

:09:49.:09:51.

to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably

:09:52.:09:56.

hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission

:09:57.:09:59.

coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I

:10:00.:10:06.

say, I know what we do, housing health, the people. That is our

:10:07.:10:09.

language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I

:10:10.:10:14.

think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the

:10:15.:10:18.

same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they

:10:19.:10:22.

think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks

:10:23.:10:27.

like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch

:10:28.:10:32.

started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the

:10:33.:10:38.

sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how

:10:39.:10:41.

long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.

:10:42.:10:47.

-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and

:10:48.:10:51.

people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to

:10:52.:10:54.

the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is

:10:55.:11:01.

20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear

:11:02.:11:06.

anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it

:11:07.:11:11.

sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion

:11:12.:11:16.

of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why

:11:17.:11:23.

did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,

:11:24.:11:26.

but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a

:11:27.:11:33.

hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an

:11:34.:11:37.

awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.

:11:38.:11:41.

What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution

:11:42.:11:44.

and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public

:11:45.:11:49.

sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record

:11:50.:11:52.

straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the

:11:53.:11:56.

future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to

:11:57.:11:59.

change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.

:12:00.:12:05.

Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates you

:12:06.:12:10.

were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite

:12:11.:12:14.

to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That

:12:15.:12:25.

is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not

:12:26.:12:27.

strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at

:12:28.:12:44.

a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,

:12:45.:12:49.

I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you

:12:50.:12:55.

back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for

:12:56.:12:59.

today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.

:13:00.:13:01.

my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily

:13:02.:13:06.

11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by

:13:07.:13:10.

We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for

:13:11.:13:15.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:16.:13:22.

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