23/10/2016 Sunday Politics South West


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There's another candidate in the race to become Ukip's next


leader: Suzanne Evans, the party's former deputy chairman,


This man might have something to say about that.


Paul Nuttal was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years.


So is he now ready to throw his hat in the ring?


The battle for Mosul: the Iraqi army and its allies advane


on the country's second city which has been in the hands of


In the South West... from this key clash?


Will fishermen get a better deal post-Brexit or will it get worse?


And the delivery of rural broadband falls even further behind.


one of the richest cities in the world. Should all private landlords


be licensed to help tackle the squalor?


And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political


panel in the business: Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn -


The last leader was in the job a mere 18 days before she decided


The favourite to succeed her then quit the party after a now infamous


Ukip's biggest donor says the party is at "breaking point".


This morning, the former Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans,


announced that she would be running for the leadership.


I've thought long and hard about this leadership bid,


and one of the reasons I've perhaps delayed announcing it is


because I wanted to be absolutely sure that I had the support


And I can confirm that I have more than enough signatures


on the nomination form already to be able to go forward.


Let's not forget that 3,000 people signed a petition in support of me


I know head office was besieged with letters in support.


I would not be doing this if I didn't have the backing


of our members, because our members are the most important


Well, Paul Nuttall was Nigel Farage's deputy for many years


and plenty of people saw him as a leader-in-waiting.


Let's ask the man himself - Paul Nuttall joins me now.


Yes. I've made the decision that I'm going to put my name forward to be


the next leader of Ukip. I have huge support across the country, not only


amongst people at the top of the party in Westminster and with the


MEPs, but also the grassroots. I want to be the unity candidate. Ukip


needs to come together. I'm not going to gild the lily. Ukip is


looking over a political cliff at the moment. It will either step four


step back, and I want to tell us to step backwards. You say it faces an


ex-distension or threat, which means it's possible it has no future at


all. Students of political history know that political parties take a


long time to get going. They can disappear pretty quickly. Ukip is


facing an existential crisis. What happened over the summer has put us


on a... We could be on a spiral that we can't get off. But I believe I am


the man to bring the factions together, to create unity within the


party, and to build on the structure and get us ready for the common


challenges. Why didn't you stand last time? Because I have spent the


last four or five years of my life travelling around the country. I


have done more Ukip meetings than anybody else, spending a lot of time


away from home. With Brexit, I felt that my job and Nigel's job was done


and we could hand over to the next generation. That doesn't seem to be


the case, and maybe it's time for someone who is an old hand. I'm very


experienced and I know the party inside out. Maybe it's time to step


in and bring the party together You told the Liverpool Echo on the night


of July that you didn't wish to take on Nigel Farage, you didn't want


that to happen to your family and friends. What has changed? The party


is facing an existential crisis and I want to make sure that Ukip is on


the pitch to keep the ball into the open net we have in politics. We


have a Conservative Party who is moving toward Brexit, but we have to


be there too. Why would you be better than Suzanne Evans? Suzanne


would be an excellent candidate I thought the 2015 manifesto was the


best out of all the political parties. I would be the best


candidate because of my experience. I am not part of any faction within


the party. Is she? I get on well with everybody, and I believe I


could be the man to bring the party together. Do you get on with Iain


Banks, -- Aaron Banks, who is supporting one of your rivals? Yes,


I get on well with him. He is able to choose whoever he wants to be the


next leader of the party. After November 28, the leadership


election, we all say, the past the past. It becomes Daisy row for the


new leader. We forget all that has before and move on. You won the


referendum. Mrs May is adopting some of your policies, like grammar


schools. What is the point of Ukip these days? Twofold. We don't have


Brexit. Mrs May said she would not invoke Article 50 until the end of


March, and we don't know if that will happen. We need to ensure a


strong Ukip to make sure that Brexit really does mean Brexit. We have a


huge opportunity in working class communities where the Labour Party


no longer represents them. I believe Ukip can become the voice of working


people. If you were the leader, would Ukip be a bigger threat to


Labour in the north or the Tories in the South? You save Labour in the


north, and people often to make that mistake. There's working class


communities right across the country is. There are working-class


communities in Bristol just as in Newcastle. We are second in a


number of northern seats, and southern seats as well, and I


believe the party can move into these communities. It can only do so


if Ukip is on the pitch, and I intend to make sure that's the case.


I don't think we have portrayed a good image over the summer. Is that


called British understatement? A bit. It is dysfunctional. We have to


move on beyond Nigel Farage. We have to build a strong national Executive


Committee. We need to ensure our branches are ready for the fight and


concentrate on local elections. I've got the experience. I'm now throwing


my hat into the ring, and I'm the only person who can keep Ukip in the


game. What role would you give Nigel Farage, if any? I will be the


candidate of compromise. I would see what Nigel wanted to do. Would you


keep in the leader of the freedom and democracy group in the European


Parliament? There would have to be compromise on both sides, and we


would need to talk about it. I don't know what Nigel wants to do. Do you


think his support, his association with Donald Trump, helps Ukip win


female votes in this country? Personally, I would not have gone


out and campaigned or said anything about Donald Trump, but I don't


think Ukip has come out and backed Donald Trump 100%. Personally, I


wouldn't have even spoken about the American election, because I think


the two candidates are quite appalling. Some up for us. If you


win, what would be the hallmark of your Ukip leadership? The first


couple of months would be ensuring that Ukip unifies. Saying no to


factions, bringing people together. Suzanne Evans, Nigel Farage, all of


the MEPs, and ensuring that Ukip can move forward. If we don't unify


Ukip will not be around for much longer. Thanks for being with us


this morning. We won't have to wait too long


to find out who Ukip's new leader will be -


the winner will be announced Who would be the best leader for


Ukip? I think the difference between the field a few weeks ago and today


is that this field is a lot stronger. Whether it's Paul or


Suzanne, I think... It is hard to say, with Aaron Banks and apparently


Nigel Farage hacking another candidate, Raheem, but I want Ukip


to be a strong force in British politics. I think the fact there is


a stronger field now is good news for Ukip. Is it a Labour's worst


nightmare in the north of England? It is. I think the personality


difference and presentational difference is interesting. Suzanne


Evans is going for the Conservative county vote. There's a lot to be


taken there by Ukip. He would probably be more appealing to the


Labour vote. It is interesting. At the moment, pollsters say that the


Ukip vote splits pretty easily between Labour and Tory. But things


always collapse. When they have made inroads into Tower Hamlets and


Barking, they collapse, because they fight amongst each other so much.


But not always with fists! Does Ukip have a future? And who would best


secure that future? It does for at least two years, until we Brexit. We


have to believe that that will happen. That was an impressive pitch


there from Paul, certainly as the unity candidate, after the car crash


we have seen on TV screens this morning. But it doesn't go beyond


May 20 19. What then? There is no point being called the United


Kingdom Independence party any longer. What will happen after May


2019? If you want to hoover up votes of the back of Brexit, you need to


start looking further ahead than two years. The person who wins that


leadership contest is the person who will sum that up the best. We shall


see. In June 2014, the group which calls


itself the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant captured Iraq's


second city, Mosul. Later that month the group announced


it was establishing a 'caliphate', or an Islamic state,


on the territories it This week 30,000 Iraqi troops, aided


by Iranian-backed Shia fighters Kurdish Peshmerga and Western air


support, began the assault Then they spot a truck bomb


from so-called Islamic State. They destroy it before


it destroys them. These are the first steps


in the battle for Mosul, the Northern Iraqi city IS has


made its stronghold since 2014. Controlling the city of around


2 million people means that they established governance,


they establish a territorial base. This is what has obsessed everyone,


because with a territorial base you are capable of doing more


than if you are simply an insurgency movement in the fabric


of another society. It's being billed as the biggest


military operation in Iraq since the war in 2003, the biggest


moment in the international effort Here is how the various forces


are approaching the city. Heading to Mosul from the south


the elite troops of the Iraqi army. Known as the Golden division,


trained and accompanied From the North, a force made up


of Kurds, known as the Peshmerga, Also from the South,


a militia made up of Shia fighters who have been accused


of human rights abuses. British planes have bombed outlying


villages, reportedly guided in by British personnel


on the ground. To the North West, a corridor


has been left for some of the 3000 plus IS fighters,


in theory an escape route which could limit the bloodshed


when fighting starts in the city. We've had 4-5 days of battle


and it's taking place in the outlying villages


and there have been some successes and some failures,


but the momentum is building. And the real question will be


when the attackers get towards the city itself,


how strong are the defences? It will crack but it might crack


within 48 hours or 2-3 weeks. IS has fought back,


on Friday they attack sites in the city of Kirkuk,


including a power station. The United Nations believes hundreds


of thousands of families have been rounded up


as potential human shields. The battle could be bloody,


but what about when it's over? The Shia militias, the Iraqi army,


the Peshmerga guerrillas, some of the Turkish elements,


they all want a share of the action. They are in Mosul, not


for altruistic reasons. They are there because they want


to be part of whatever happens next. The biggest issue is how the Sunni


majority in Mosul reacts to the Shia militias which have


helped to liberate them. ARCHIVE FOOTAGE: When Sir Francis


Humphrey went to Mosul If it all seems like something


from the archive, when the Middle East went up in flames


and was then carved up, it is because that is what is


happening in Iraq right now. National identity has been cut


across by other identities such And that means that putting together


a so-called nation state again Almost certainly there will be


a new form of Kurdish state, almost certainly in northern Iraq


at the end of this crisis, and what is happening in Mosul


is a microcosm of what is happening elsewhere across the Levant


which is that it is melting down. Big questions, questions that


come after the battle. The coalition forces are advancing


but this is just the beginning. I'm joined now by the International


Development Minister Rory Stewart. In a former life he was


the coalition Deputy-Governor of two provinces in Southern Iraq following


the Iraq intervention of 2003. Is there any doubt that at some


stage Mosul will fall to the forces of Iraq and its allies? The first


thing is that war is very uncertain and there are cliches about it being


the graveyard of predictions and we don't want to make confident


predictions but the basic structure is that there are 30,000 Iraqi


forces outside and only a few thousand Daesh fighters inside and I


would say it is overwhelmingly likely that the batter will one


STUDIO: -- the battle the won by the Iraqi forces.


June 2014 was a great success, they took a city of over in people and


they created what they tried to create a million state of 7 million


people, stretching across the Iraqi Syrian border, but since then they


have lost territory quite rapidly. Now they are losing the outskirts of


Mosul, and that is a fundamental blow. Islamic State is all about


territory and holding state, that is what makes it different from


Al-Qaeda. If they lose Mosul that will be a cynic -- significant blow


to their credibility. Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday's


presidential debate that when Iraqi forces with their allies including


the United Kingdom gain control of Mosul they should continue to press


into Syria to take back Raqqa which is the de facto capital of the


caliphate, what is left of it, do we want Iraqi forces to pursue IS into


Syria? Very important question. Delayed in Raqqa needs to come from


people on the Syrian side of the border and that is an important


principle -- the lead. In the end of that enemy, Islamic State, is a


common enemy for odd members of the coalition including the Iraqi


government. -- all members. There is likely to be a humanitarian crisis


especially if it ends up with street to street fighting and IS are


difficult to dislodge what are we doing about that? We are doing very


detailed scenario planning. It is very uncertain what the scenario


will be but much investment has gone into creating a network of camps,


refugees STUDIO: Refugee camps around cash refugee camps, and that


is where money, British money, 40 million has gone recently into


supporting that, especially in terms of medical support to people. The


United nation's emergency response budget is ?196 million but only one


third funded which sounds like we are putting up a big chunk of what


is already being funded. Why is that? The international committee


can't say they haven't seen this assault coming, and the humanitarian


fallout they may see from it. You are absolutely right. We have seen


it coming and we have been planning since debris and we have put in


about ?167 million into this -- planning since February. There has


been a change in the nature of the appeal, and if there is a lag in the


accounting of it, but the money we need at this stage is in place and


we do have the support structure in place for those refugees. You are


right the United Nations is continuing with its appeal and is


asking for more money at the moment. The converse magazine wrote this


week that preparations for a big exodus of people leaving the city


have been made -- Economist magazine. But confidence is not high


in the preparations, is that a unfair conclusion? If you can


imagine the different scenarios it could be a few thousand and it could


be a few hundred thousand coming out of the city through a front line


where the war is going on, that is very difficult. You have to screen


those people and disarm them, and keep families together, and


transport them and you have to bring them into the refugee camps. The


people working on this have been working on this for long time, we


have mapped the different routes we have good camp infrastructure in


place and we have people who have worked in south to dam and other


areas who are putting their structures in place -- South Sudan.


It is never easy but I think we have done everything we can in the


preparation for this. What is the British role in what will probably


be an even bigger issue, assuming that Mosul is liberated and retaken,


the humanitarian crisis is dealt with, what role will we play in the


rebuilding of Mosul? That will be crucial to the future of Iraq, the


second-biggest city and it will need to be rebuilt. It will need to be


rebuilt as a community as well as bricks and mortar. And eight Sunni


community that is not harassed by the Shia. -- and eight. You are


right. One of the core drivers is that the Sunni community felt


excluded and they did not feel they have the trust from the Baghdad


government. A lasting solution is stopping some of Islamic State


coming back, that involves making sure the Sunni community have a


stake in their future. That is making sure that the governing


structures are in place. The UK s response is twofold, we have got to


get the humanitarian aid right, that is the short term, people who might


be malnourished, coming out of the front line. The second thing is


working with the Iraqi government to make sure that as we rebuild Mosul


we do so in a way that that population feels a connection to the


Iraqi state. Islamic State is losing territory everywhere in the Levant,


it is almost finished in Iraq, we think. It is down to one district in


Libya, as well, just one small part of the town. I suppose the risk is,


if life is becoming more difficult across these areas, it can start to


look more in Europe and the United Kingdom as a place to continue its


terrorist attacks? That is a real danger. You are right. This is a


group which has proved over the last five years very unpredictable and it


changes for it quickly full stop often it does unexpected things In


2009 its predecessor had been largely wiped out in Iraq and when


it was under pressure in Syria it went back into Iraq, and in the past


it didn't hold territory but now it holds territory, so you are right.


There is a serious risk that as it gets squeezed in the middle East it


will try to pop up somewhere else and Mac could include Europe and the


United States -- that could. They say that is something they have


focused on full stop we also have a big focus on counterterrorism


security and making sure that we keep the United Kingdom and Europe


say. One final question. -- say -- safe. Maybe events in Mosul could


add to the migration crisis in Europe, is that a possibility?


Again, you are right, we have seen in Syria it can push migration, the


biggest push the migration was the conflict in Syria, and that's the


reason why we have but so much energy into getting those refugee


camps in place and getting the humanitarian response in place -


put so much energy. People will want to remain in their homes, this is


their country, but we have got to make it possible for them and that


means in the short term looking after their shelter and in the


medium to long-term making sure they have livelihoods, jobs and an


economic development which is why our support in Iraq is in the UK


National interests because it deals with these issues of migration and


terrorists. Thanks for joining us. I'm joined now by the Shadow Defence


Secretary. Does Labour support British


participation in this offensive We fully support the participation in


this offensive, extremely important move forward and we voted for this


back in 2014. We are asking the government question is, of course, I


was asking the Secretary of State this week about this very offensive


but we are fully behind our RAF pilots out there and be trading that


has been going on to help the forces on the ground. -- the training full


stop that is very clear. I wonder if you'll lead it shares that clarity


and that position. -- is your leader. This is what Jeremy Corbyn


has said. What's been done in Iraq


is done by the Iraqi government, and currently


supported by the British government. I did not support it


when it came up. Well, I'm not sure how successful


it's been, because most of the action now appears to be


moving in to Syria, so I think we He doesn't sound very supportive.


The issue about Mosul, it has been very carefully prepared as Rory


Stewart said and I hope we have learned the lessons from previous


offensives where we haven't learnt sufficiently, and that is going to


be crucial in this context. How the aftermath is going to be dealt with.


Of course will stop that clip was from November last year, and things


have changed. Two weeks ago he told the BBC" I'm not sure it is


working", in reference to air strikes in Iraq, but it is working.


We have got to see what happens in Mosul, it is a very high-risk


operation, but we also have to face the fact that the people there are


living under tyranny at the moment. We have to ask very cirrus question


shall stop he says he's not sure it is working, when Mosul is the last


major target be cleared of Islamic State in Iraq. The combination of


Allied air power has worked, why is he not sure it is working? Because


we have seen difficulties in the past. But this was two weeks ago. It


is essential that the work is done, both planning for the refugees as


Rory Stewart referred to, but also in terms of reconstruction of the


city and its community as you mentioned. These are vital. This was


about the ability to make progress with Allied air power, special


forces in Iraq, on the ground, do you accept so far that has a


strategy that seems to be working to read Iraq of Islamic -- to read Iraq


of Islamic State the question of the car began placement. Ulloa -- we


can't be complacent. The problems they are creating where ever they


are urged that we must continue to pursue them. This is the first time


we have spoken to since you have become the Shadow Defence Secretary.


I hope we will have a longer interview. Will Labour's next


manifesto include a commitment to the renewal of Trident? It will We


made that commitment in 2007, that is a firm commitment and we will


honour that to our coalition allies and our industrial partners and that


is the vote which was taken democratically and repeatedly has


been reaffirmed by Labour conference and we are a democratic party vote


up you have squared that with Jeremy Corbyn? He's in favour of democracy


and he understands the situation, but we also want to push for the UK


to play a much bigger role on the international stage on multilateral


disarmament talks. You were very clear there, I thank you for that.


Support for Trident will be in the next Labour manifesto. What has


happened to Labour's review of Trident policy? That review has been


taking place over the year, we had a very clear reaffirmation in the


conference boat this year, we are reaffirming our commitment to


Trident -- vote. The review can t change that? There is a process of


review and a fair number of issues related to defence, all parties do


this. Of course. The review can t change the commitment to Trident? We


are not changing the commitment to Trident. Russia is now the main


strategic threat to this country? It is a major strategic threat and we


have got to work with our Nato allies very closely and make sure


that we respond and that we do not let things pass. For example, we


should be calling out Russia for the way it has been a bombing


humanitarian aid and we should be taking them to international court


over this, but we should also be strengthening sanctions, somewhat


imposed over Ukraine. We try to do that, but the Italians wouldn't let


us. The Italians did not want to participate in the European


initiative but that doesn't stop individual countries for the Britain


should step up? Yes, we should look at what is practical to impose.


Thanks for joining us. Mosul is not the only major battle


being waged in the Middle East. The city of Aleppo in northern Syria


has seen some of the heaviest bombardment since Syria's


five-year-long civil war began. This week Russian warships,


in a deliberate show of power, sailed west through the English


channel en route to Syria. Nato says it's Russia's "largest


surface deployment" since the end of the Cold War in what is thought


to be preparation for a final assault


on the besieged city of Aleppo. In the city itself fighting


resumed overnight - following a 3-day ceasefire -


with more air strikes and heavy clashes in the city's


rebel-held eastern districts. Almost 500 people have been


killed and 2,000 injured since Syrian government forces,


backed by Russian air strikes, This week Theresa May condemned


Vladimir Putin's involvement in Syria, accusing Moscow


of being behind "sickening atrocities" in support


of President Assad's regime. But European leaders are divided


on how to respond and, with the United States preoccupied


with domestic politics, President Putin senses this


is his moment to bring the Syrian I'm joined now by the BBC's former


Diplomatic and Moscow Correspondent, Bridget Kendall, who is now Master


of Peterhouse College in Cambridge. Welcome. Good to see you in the BBC


studio again. Let me put up this satellite image of Aleppo here, to


get an idea of the scale. It was the biggest city in Syria. It was the


commercial capital and a huge cultural hub as well. Almost the New


York of Syria, to give you an idea of its significance to the country.


Let me show you now how it's been divided. The rebels are now in


control of the eastern part, about eight miles long and three miles


wide there, they're in purple. They are under great attacks still. Is it


inevitable that that purple part falls to the regime? That is what


President as Saad, the Russians and the Iranians hope. The fierce


bombardments we have seen is part of that. I'm reminded very much in the


Russian tactics of what happened in grudgingly in Chechnya in 2000, when


the Russians said, a warning for all civilians to lead, and then they


went ahead and they basically raised it to the ground. They are talking


about Al Nusrah as being one of the rebel groups. They got rid of all of


the terrorists. They talk about it being an Al-Qaeda offshoot. The


purpose of going in is to get rid of them. You get the civilians out and


then you take it. But this isn't like Chechnya. It is much more


complex. We have seen an attempt to take Aleppo before, and then there


was a rebel counter offensive. It's not so certain. And there are so


many different parties involved We have seen the alarm in the west of


the extent of the civilian casualties. There have been


rumblings in the west of, shouldn't the United States do something?


Shouldn't they stop the Syrian air force? This Russian aircraft carrier


steaming its way towards the Eastern Mediterranean is a symbolic gesture,


both to its own people, but also to the West, to say, don't get involved


in Aleppo if we go ahead. Don't try and stop us because we could up the


ante. They have not been great visual pictures, because the


aircraft carrier looks a bit clapped out, belching out smoke! If the


rebel controlled area does fall it would be seen as a great victory for


President as Saad and his Russian allies. What is the aim of Russia


here? What would they then do, if Aleppo Falls? It is part of a plan


that President Putin set out in his UN speech in 2014, before Russia


went into Syria. The aim is to put President Assad back in charge.


President Putin said this weekend that either is Assad in Damascus, or


its Al Nusrah. There is nothing in between. They want to eliminate the


argument for a moderate opposition. They want to make it plain that the


only way to get a stable Syria is to have Assad back in charge. Even sue


argue for a rump steak lit, leaving aside what is happening with IAS.


They have already said they want to have an enlarged military presence


at their bases. And they have a big naval base. It is. It is a chance to


push for this when he sees the West is being distracted and divided


Europe and America, by elections and so on. Just before the US elections.


The Americans are worried about that, Europeans are being distracted


by Brexit. He can push to his maximum advantage now, before there


is a new US president. If they do take that part of Aleppo, and that


part of northern Syria, does Mr Putin want us to recognise, to


admit, that that is now his sphere of influence? I think the rhetoric


from the Russians is that they want the West to recognise that they are


an equal powerful partner. It's not just the US that runs the writ in


the Middle East. Russia is as important as it is. It is engaging


with Saudi Arabia and has mended fences with Turkey. Syria is the


place from which it can launch its message that it is a big player in


the Middle East. Russia wants the West to understand that this isn't a


country that was dismembered after the end of the Soviet Union and is


now a week. It is back, and it is strong. That is an important


message. Looking at the economy It is in recession. GDP has been


falling, partly because of the price of oil. It is highly dependent on


hydrocarbons, and is expected to fall again. Its people are falling


again. People don't realise how small the Russian economy is. Its


GDP is about the size of Italy's. It is smaller than the UK economy.


Bigger than it was 15 or 20 years ago. But so is Britain's does it


help to take people's mind of this? A huge shock to the Russian economy


was a drop in the price of oil and a price of gas. A drop in the price of


the ruble as well. This is hurting the people of Russia. On the one


hand, it is the war in Syria, which is very important for Russia to sort


out that part of the world and dispensed terrorists who might be


danger to -- is dangerous to Russia. But he had also has presidential


election is going up. They are supposed to be 2018, but some feel


he will bring them forward to 2 17, because the economy is not doing so


well. But you need a good story for the Russian people. Thank you very


much. Hello, I'm Martyn Oates.


in Scotland who leave us now Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics


in the South West... There'll be no more fish in the sea


post-Brexit, but will our fhshermen And for the next twenty minttes


I'm joined by the North Cornwall MP Scott Mann and by Exeter's Ben


Bradshaw. This week, in a heated


debate at Westminster, Devon MPs discussed the cuts


to services being proposed to stave off the financial crisis


in the county's health servhces Here's a taste from the Torridge


and West Devon MP Geoffrey Cox. Until the deficit is addressed,


until there is fair funding for rural health services,


we will not believe the asstrances that come from the well-meaning


administrators that our health Scott, you're the North Cornwall MP


next door to North Devon. I guess a lot of your consthtuents


actually go to places like North Devon District Hospital,


which is potentially in the Many of my constituents frol Bude


and Launce do go across the border What I would say is I understand


Devon's part of this review process to process


with Cumbria and Essex, This is to tackle the huge


financial challenge. They're trying to look at a much


more creative way of doing what they're doing and I thhnk


we tend to focus so much of our efforts on the second phase,


the General Hospital phase, when we should be looking at helping


GPs to maintain people living From my point of view,


I think the best bed for anxbody is the bed that they actually sleep


in every night and if we can provide health care that supports


them to go back into their own home, I think that would probably


be beneficial. Ben, you sit on the health


select committee. A lot of the Conservative MPs


there were moaning about money and there not being enough loney


for health in the south-west. You were addressing a simil`r theme


on the select committee on the same I thought the strength


and the tone of the criticism from the Conservative MPs w`s really


very striking and at the very same time as they were having th`t


debate, Sarah Wollaston, the Totnes MP and I were grhlling


the Health Secretary and Simon Stephens and Therdsa May


made quite clear this week there's not going to be any more money


for the NHS and Simon Stephdns, the head of the NHS said th`t


for the first time in the NHS's history, funding


is falling per head. Some of the changes proposed


in Devon could make sense. It does make sense to move resources


from beds and community hospitals to give more support for people


in their homes but when sochal care has already been cut to the bone


and we need really strong gtarantees that that money is going to


be there. Well, regular viewers of thhs


programme will be very familiar with the trials and tribulations


of trying to roll out superfast broadband in rural


Devon and Somerset. The two counties are the only part


of the country which still haven't signed up a contractor to mdet


the government's pledge of delivering 95% coverage


by the end of next year, making delivery of that pledge,


I would think, unlikely. When the deal collapsed,


I spoke to the man in He said dissatisfaction with BT s


performance in the first ph`se of the roll-out was one reason


they weren't hired again. Ultimately, we have to go


for good value for money We can't just give it to BT as has


been suggested and hope They have proved to us


that they couldn't deliver so we had no alternative but to step


away at that point. Eight months on we can reve`l that


MPs in Devon and Somerset h`ve now written to BT following reports


that its commercial roll-out of superfast broadband is shx months


behind schedule in the two counties. That means around 20,000 fewer homes


and businesses will be conndcted by the end of December this year


than BT had promised the cotncils. Let's see if we can download


the Sunday politics South Wdst show. To show me how slow the Intdrnet


speeds are at his house in East Devon, Rod's trying


to download an episode of the Sunday He's only getting speeds


of 0.42 megabits, so this The problem seems to be that


Rod's been connected to a broadband cabinet,


which is six and a half It's terribly frustrating


because things that are norlal, that people do, like iPlayer


and all the other things th`t people So, Jenny, this is cabinet,


also number 11, also connected What's even more annoying for Rod


is that he could get much bdtter Internet access if he was


connected to this cabinet. It's just a few yards


from his house. Some new properties nearby


are connected from it, Well, BT say it's, they use these


two words, policy and engindering. For some reason, they


don't want to do it. Rod's connection is


subsidised by the taxpayer. In this case by connecting


Devon and Somerset. That's a partnership


between councils and broadb`nd providers, which decides


where to spend the public money A target for 90% of households


to get access to superfast broadband But that is heavily dependent on BT


meeting an obligation to deliver And we understand BT's commdrcially


viable connections are six This could mean approximately 2 ,000


fewer homes and businesses than councillors had been promised


will be connected at This is very much our


infrastructure. This is what is going to drhve


the economy in our areas and it is so annoying when we put


a lot of public money into ht, councils, private money,


plus government money This village is one of thosd that


had been stuck between a rock Not in the publicly funded scheme


and told by BT that broadband But now another company


is about to make a go of it. This week, a company called


Gigacare has announced This week, a company called Gigacare


has announced -- Gigaclear. a service to this area and ht


will be doing so without It's even promising residents that


they'll be able to download a movie It is welcome news for this


holiday cottage business. It's been losing customers


because they can't use It's going to have a massivd impact


on our business and I know ht's going to have an impact on other


businesses as well. Ah, Jenny, it looks


as if it hasn't downloaded. Meanwhile, back in East Devon,


Rod would love a company like Gigaclear to help him out


but he feels it's unlikely that a smaller provider would be


interested in setting up in his area because most of his village do have


superfast broadband. Unfortunately, he is among 20


properties that are missing out Well, BT declined our invit`tion


to join us to discuss this, but the company has


provided a statement. It didn't deny there were ddlays,


but said BT had always made it clear that any early estimates of expected


commercial coverage, made several years ago,


were part of an outline plan, which was subject to detaildd


planning and survey. It said national commitments made


by BT on its commercial fibre broadband programme had


been achieved early. In response to the case of Lr Boyce,


BT said it was not unusual for a small number of premises


connected to an upgraded cabinet not to benefit


from superfast speeds. Well, one man who did


accept our invitation to the programme is the councillor


in charge of the Welcome back to the programle,


David. Now, the last time we were talking


about broadband, we were talking about the problems with phase two,


which obviously you acknowlddge but I do remember you saying at that


point the good news was that phase That doesn't really look


like the case now, does it? As far as the intervention


programme is concerned, as far as connecting Devon


and Somerset is concerned, But just to be clear,


you're not going to meet thhs Overall, the programme we understand


now is not going to meet thd 90 but the bit that is being stbsidised


by the government, the intervention part that we have been responsible


for will meet its targets. What we are waiting to hear now


is how far short of their commercial targets BT are actually going to be


and what that will mean in terms of percentage points but we mustn't


lose sight of the fact that the public subsidy,


the bit subsidised by you and I that is on target, as indeed


is the procurement that we spoke So, we are making progress


but naturally on behalf of the consumers, I'm


disappointed that BT aren't going to meet


their commercial obligations. Because these targets,


these pledges were made, the councils have been quitd clear


about that, the government have been You were tasked with


delivering this target. The way you chose to do


that was via BT but the point Well, that's correct


and the targets that we werd set, our part of the programme, was based


upon the numbers provided bx BT We now understand that BT


are going to meet those targets, those numbers


that they originally put forward. That is disappointing


but it doesn't take away from the success of the programme,


the success of the public stbsidy and it doesn't take away


from the importance of carrxing on and making sure we get


connectivity out to the rest of Devon and Somerset


as quickly as possible. I absolutely agree and symp`thise


with the frustration of people who haven't got it yet


but the programme continues and we are waiting in very positive


anticipation of the results Ben, you're a Devon MP


though I guess Exeter Well, we've got pretty serious gaps


in places like Marsh Barton, which is a very important


industrial estate. Look, this is a pretty


scandalous situation. We were promised 90% coverage


by the end of this year. There's no way we're


going to make that up. You know, there was clearly


something wrong If BT can't be forced to deliver


this or at least penalised for not delivering it on time then


there was something wrong There have been a couple of very


critical select committee rdports One recommending they be split off


from Open Reach, which I thhnk Ofcom They've given them a last chance


on that and one said that they were missing 1000 visits


a week in terms of the implementation of broadband,


so there's clearly something I feel very sorry for


the councillors that have h`d to deal with this at a local level


but I think in the end, the buck has to stop


with the government. David, have you got any way


of penalising BT for this or indeed making them actually achievd this


target in the next few months? Well, I think the important thing


is that we continue a constructive relationship with BT,


Holborn to account. We're waiting to see


the actual numbers. We don't know what the


percentage points are. There's talk of their being a number


of months behind. This will inevitably


run into the delivery We need to put pressure on BT


but at the same time make stre I wanted to talk about that


because I think the last tile we spoke you weren't prepardd


or able to confirm that the phase two target, 95% within the next


year, would be made. That's going to happen now, is it,


with these latest convocations? I don't think you're in a position


to say that. The procurement has closed xet,


so we don't know the results. So you haven't got


the contracter in place yet? Since we spoke, the level


of interest in being a provider under phase two


has been significant. I have every anticipation


that we might well over delhver which is good news but it doesn t


make up for BT's shortfall We have to bear in mind that


whatever we do as an intervdntion programme, were not allowed by law


to interfere in the commerchal area, so that the end of the day BT just


have too deliver and we've got to keep the pressure on thel,


government has to keep the pressure It's well-known that Cornwall got


a lot of European funding to roll out superfast broadband but people


repeatedly say, in theory, that's right, but we've


still got problems. You've got a very


rural constituency. If you're in that 5%


of people that don't get it, that's a particular problem


so I wanted to try and get involved so I got involved


in the Digital Economy Bill, which is currently going


through Parliament at the moment and we're trying to implement a 10


megabits speed over the course of the whole country


as a universal service obligation, so the emphasis will be


on organisations like BT and if they don't deliver,


we're going to give Ofcom the ability to step in and test


people's signals on the doorstep, not at the cabinet,


but on the doorstep, so that they are able to thdn


penalise the contractor. OK, we're going to have


to leave it there. David, thank you very much once


again and perhaps we'll be talking about your over


delivery next time! Plymouth, according to government


figures, landed the most fish in England last year and only last


week the value of fish sold at Brixham market surpassed


the million pound mark But many fishermen feel the industry


has been hamstrung by Britahn's membership of the EU and ard hoping


for a brighter future post-Brexit. Scott tabled a debate on thhs


at Westminster a few days ago. We'll be hearing from him and former


Fisheries Minister, Ben, This was the day in June


that the battle for Brexit When a flotilla of fishing


boats travelled up Among them, fishermen


from the south-west. Brixham skipper Mike Sharp was one,


desperate to be rid of an ET quota The French have 70% of the cod,


we have eight. They have 70% of the haddock,


we have about seven or eight. And it's every species,


so it's not a case of we want more for a bigger quota,


we want and equal share of ht and most of the fish


is in English waters. We asked marine consultant,


Terry Portman, to explain how In the beginning when we johned


the CFP, there were And why south-west fishermen feel


they got landed with a raw deal Because the emphasis was put


on the UK having bigger percentages in what the government of the day


thought was the important Most fishermen will welcome


the opportunity to have all been The idea that we have a big enough


naval fleet to go out and look at the hundreds of fishing


boats in our waters every There's a lot to take in so here's


a helpful graphic to explain things. Under the Common Fisheries Policy,


European fishing fleets are given equal access to EU waters


and fishing grounds up to 12 nautical miles from the coasts


of EU member states. When the UK leaves the EU,


it'll take back control of `n area extending 200 nautical


miles from our coast. Or in the case of the channdl,


up to the median line. So, it's absolutely possibld


that the UK's starting position will be that we have our territorial


waters back and the UK has sole The reality is that I'm surd


there be a series of negoti`tions and somewhere between that


and what we currently have Those who backed the Fishing


For Leave campaign are now pushing We have to ensure that the living


resources in our waters are available primarily for UK


fishermen and that they are managed a lot better


than they have been in the past Although poised to slip


the shackles of Europe, communities like Brixham know


there's a lot to lose. The main problem that everyone


is scared of that fishing is so small that we will be traded


off but it is not just It's the coastal ports all `round


the country, the shipbuilding, According to the government,


85% of all UK shellfish was exported The need to maintain a closd trading


relationship with the use whll make things get more complicated


for ministers trying to hamler out Scott, what about the suggestion


we had from a fishermen there and I've heard


from other people as well, that in the totality of these Brexit


negotiations, relatively sm`ll industries like fishing and indeed


farming, as you were debating this week, could actually be


the fall guys, ie, you know, if there are prizes to secure,


the price going to to be pahd might Well, of course it is small now


in the West Country but it I remember growing up and sdeing,


you know, fishing communitids that were absolutely thriving


along the coastline. To put in another way,


somebody from the fishing community was saying,


you know, if there is a deb`te about saving passporting rights


for the city and conceding something in fishing in response,


that might be the option When we entered the European Union,


we had to give over our fishing rights as a communal resource


and they are historically hours and I think that we should hnvoke


the United Nations Law of the Sea and claim our territorial


fishing waters back. So, are we talking about gohng


to the 200 mile... So, no deal to share any


access at all? Well, I think there does nedd to be


a discussion about whether xou enter waters but I think the Brithsh


government should be in control But presumably, will you sthll think


it is important to have this tariff free access for I think


it was the 85% of shellfish we sell You will have to give


something in return. One of the things that came out


of the fishing and farming debate was that we export 40%


of our lamb to France. So there does need


to be a trade-off. It is a big challenge to achieve


that, isn't it, because of the rules Everybody seems to accept that


when we entered the then EEC, we got a bad deal in terms


of the fishing quota. Yeah, but my worry is we cotld


have an even worse when aftdr this process and I think there could be


a lot of disappointed Brexit supporting fishermen out


there for two reasons. Firstly, as you have just s`id,


we rely heavily on exports. The vast majority of our,


you know, the biggest catch here and these fantastic record


cuttlefish catches in Plymotth and Brixham, go straight


to the Italian markets Our crab and lobster goes straight


to France and Spain. The very worst thing to happen


would be if tariffs The idea that we could unil`terally


declare a 200 mile limit with no consequences is,


I'm afraid, a pie in the skx. We'd be looking at a place hn a sole


war rather than a cod war and the other thing is,


the idea that anyone else is going to give us a lot of favours


in the negotiation and that a British government


is going to prioritise fishhng is, unfortunately, given as you say


the importance of much more important areas


and sectors for our economy. You know, we've heard a lot


from the Labour Party in parliament over the last few weeks abott access


to the single market. And from some of your


own MPs, on both sides But from my point of view,


I think the one thing we nedd to do right now is deliver


the will of the British people and I think that, you know,


we've seen a lot of questions from Labour members


of Parliament around what Brexit Martyn, if we were


playing cards right now, I don't think we should be showing


everybody their cards either. I think it's important for ts


to play as good a hand as we can at the moment


for our people in this country. I completely accept that


but I'm just not sure it was the will of the Brithsh


people to do ourselves OK, we can't pursue the whole


single market and Brexit The Transport Secretary prolises


the government won't sit by and see the region's railway severed


a second time. This is a very crucial link


to an important part of our country. Cornwall's Conservative MPs under


fire for failing to vote against a new constituency


shared with Devon. They completely missed a golden


opportunity and I think the people of Cornwall should be


pretty upset about. Dartmoor councillors fight


to hold their phone boxes. This is situated in a vallex


and we have very high sides to the valleys


there is no mobile signal. Plymouth MP Oliver Coville lanages


to get hedgehogs into a deb`te Local authorities could makd sure


they have policies to make sure that they have hedgehog supdr


highways and something that And, the pint sized campaigner


bringing thousands of locked drains to the attention


of Cornwall Council. Scott, you were one of the Cornish


MPs who voted against the SNP amendment to oppose the boundary


changes, which would see thhs Devon You said a few weeks ago whdn this


was announced that you were going to take soundings


from your constituents. The truth is, I think that ht


would take somebody very spdcial to represent both areas,


to represent both youthful `reas. Geoffrey Cox has ruled himsdlf


out on the other side Geoffrey Cox has ruled himsdlf


out on the other side I'm saying to you that I thhnk


it can be done but you have to deal with two local enterprise


partnerships and that So there is no issue of a principled


stand against it? No one is moving


the historic border. This is about whether an MP can do


two jobs for two different Scott will have another opportunity


to vote against the boundarx changes in November because there's


a private members bill that Will you vote against it thdn,


Scott? Would I vote against


the boundary review then? I would, as I said to you,


be taking soundings At the moment the number of e-mails


that have been in my inbox `re quite small on this issue but I whll take


soundings from the people that It looks as if noises


from the Transport Secretarx are that the government


will stump up the money We have heard this before


and it hasn't happened I'm not an engineer, Martin,


but ideally have some concerns I do have some concerns abott moving


a railway line from the cliff face into the sea, when it seems


the sea is the problem. go ahead with this policy, I know.


And now back to Andrew. So, Brexit, airports,


Calais and the chances With what Rory Stewart was saying


there, it is clear that Islamic State is losing territory in Iraq


now, and could come under pressure in Syria as well. It used to control


a whole swathe of the coast of Libya, and is now down to a small


area of Sirte in Libya. But curiously, it could make them more


dangerous here if they are being driven out of the Maghreb and the


Levant, they could be more dangerous here. Discuss. That was a very


interesting admission from a government minister, of all people,


and a well-informed one. Chasing Isis around the Middle East is


about... Like chasing Al-Qaeda around Afghanistan and Pakistan You


smash them somewhere, and they pop up somewhere else. He is right to


warn that these guys will go somewhere. And it may well be, in


Sirte, for example, across the magic oration -- across the Mediterranean


into Italy. A lot of the foreign fighters in Mosul have already gone,


we heard, which raises the question, to where? I think it is quite right


for government ministers to warn that it might have repercussions


here. We have been involved in this, with full public consent, as far as


we can tell. If it doesn't happen, if there are horrors and outrages


here and in the rest of Europe, that's fine. If it does happen, at


least the government is prepared. We knew surprised about how categorical


Nia Griffith was? She was categorical about support for the


Allied action in Iraq, and categorical about Russia. So much so


that perhaps written should take tougher sanctions on its own, even


if it can't get the Europeans to fall in line. I found that


interesting. I was surprised by that. Tom may be right that Rory


said more than perhaps he was intending, but I thought that some


of what she said sounded politically imprudent in the current context of


the Labour Party. I'm not sure she cleared those lines with the Labour


office. I'm not sure she and Jeremy are in the same place about it. I'm


not sure there is that much leadership. People at the moment get


out there and say what they think it's right for the party. She


sounded dead right to me. Whether it is ill-advised or not, people should


answer... I want to move on, because Brexit never goes away. This week we


saw Hilary Benn, former Shadow Foreign Secretary. He is going to be


the chair of the select committee in the Commons which will monitor the


Department for Brexit. All sorts of people will be coming to give


testimony and so one. Let's hear what he told Andrew Marr.


I think it will be very important for the government to indicate that


if it is not possible within the two years provided for by Article 5


to negotiate both our withdrawal agreement and a new trading


relationship, market access, including for services,


80% of our economy, million jobs, in financial services,


that it should tell the House of Commons that it will seek


a transitional arrangement with the European Union.


If the deal is not done at the end of the two-year Article 50 process,


would the government go for an interim agreement, or would it fall


back on WTO, World Trade Organisation, Rawls? My


understanding is the article 15 negotiation doesn't specifically


include what Britain's future trading relationship with the EU


would be. It is perfectly possible that Article 50 could be triggered,


and after two years we don't have a trade deal, but the trade deal


negotiations are ongoing when we are outside the EU. But the trade deal


negotiations are the most important thing. If Article 50 doesn't cover


it, what is it about? Absolutely essential. The trade deal with


Canada has taken nine years, and now it looks like it is fading, because


of the Walloons. Just one small part of the country. If you cannot do a


free-trade deal with Canada, a progressive, social Democratic


Canada, who can the EU do a trade deal with? You would think it would


be easy with us, because we have all of the level playing field


agreements in place. You would hope it would be easier, but it may not


be, because in the end, it will hinge on the single market and if we


are in or out. If we are in, can we have a small break on immigration?


It looks like not. What is interesting about the opinion polls


is, in the last two opinion polls there was a significant change in


public opinion, where people are now saying they think that actually


trade, the economy, the single market is more important than


immigration. If it is really true, as the observer is reporting today,


that banks are on the move, and in a year's time there could be a


significant collapse in the income we get from finance, the income that


the Treasury gets, then public opinion might change. They may say,


we don't want more immigration, but this isn't a price worth paying


Everything tends to be seen through the Brexit lens at the moment.


Things are not always as they seem. The Canadian- EU free trade


agreement was about increasing free trade between the EU and Canada and


therefore subject to the ratification of all members. Any


deal we do will not give us the same access we have at the moment. The


question is, how much will it be diminished? It may not be subject to


the same ratification process. Absolutely right. Another


unbelievably technical point that we still don't know is, if we can get


this free-trade deal with the EU at the same time as our Brexit talks


and deal, the divorce deal as well as the remarriage deal, then one


gets signed off by QM V. The trade deal may still need all 28, all 27,


including the people from the Walloons. And the MEPs. The majority


of parliament. This is exactly why Theresa May would like the


transitional deal to push this one deeper. I was surprised to hear


Hilary Benn pushing this line this morning. The remainers have been all


over the place. They wanted a vote after Article 50 had been triggered


about the deal. Then they wanted a vote before Article 50. Now they are


talking about a vote before article Article 50 is triggered about a


trade deal. They need to make up their minds about what it is they


are pushing for, and what their best hope of obstructing Brexit is, and


stick with it. Something else we see through the Brexit lens, which isn't


always helpful, is Calais. The French bulldozers will move in


tomorrow. We will see some pretty disturbing scenes on the TV. We will


see some horrible scenes. The government has handled this very


badly. Having passed an amendment in April saying we would take something


like 3000 children, a lot of those children have disappeared. Save the


Children, one of the charities there, are very worried that people


traffickers have been in there, and a lot of those children have


vanished. We haven't sent social workers in. No preparations have


been made what ever. You are raising an interesting point. We don't know


how many we are meant to be taking. The huge argument has arisen over


what the age is of some of the ones coming in. Is this another problem


for the Home Office? To some extent. Didn't Theresa May 's too well to


survive six weeks of this? Amber Rudd has been there for three


months. It is clear that the Home Office didn't prepare for this. They


didn't prepare for the age verification or when it will go It


needs to be an perfect. We don't know how many we will take, because


the Home Office will not say. I want to talk about airport capacity, but


I won't, because I don't think we have anything to say about it until


the statement on Tuesday from Transport Minister Grayling. When


you look at the polls and see the decision on airport runway expansion


being kicked into the long grass for a year, are we heading for an early


election next year or not? I think Theresa May will do everything she


can to avoid it. If there is an election before 2020, it is bound to


be about Europe, and that is a much harder case for her to win than just


a question of who is the best Prime Minister. She will have a tough


time, because it will be a general election about in or out of the


single market. Half of her party will peel away. How do she conduct a


general election when the likes of Anna Soubry will not stand on the


same platform? It will be difficult. But she may reach such a stalemate


that she just calls one. No general election next year because it will


split the Tory party. There will be won in 2019 when she cannot get


Brexit through the House of Commons. You really can have too much of a


good thing. I just want to show a little clip of the former Shadow


Chancellor, Ed Balls, from Strictly last night. Let's just watch this.


There he is. Where is the hand? That is the


worrying bit! We will no longer be saying that Ed Balls is a safe pair


of hands! Can we agree on that? Remarkable that he was once the man


most feared by David Cameron! Labour leader 2021. He has hit popular


culture in the way that many few politicians do. Charm, gusto,


bravery, no worries about being embarrassed. All the things that you


don't like about being a politician. We have run out of time. You can get


it on social media. Jo Coburn will be back


with the Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here next


Sunday at the same time. Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics. Everyone's living these


amazing lives, You're like a...


Different person? Delve deeper.


Ordinary Lives continues... They have something on me


that I can actually remember. They have something on me


that I can actually remember. The final chapter between


Gibson and Spector.


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