30/10/2016 Sunday Politics South West


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.


Theresa May says she wants to help people who are


"just about managing" - so should she reverse


George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people


Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,


says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.


So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?


Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation


into her use of a private email server - is this the boost


Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?


Now it is just a question of building that runway with the


political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio


on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political


panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,


'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two


new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant


in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday


was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British


economy is in rude health This morning, the Business


Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given


to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest


for there to be tariff barriers to the continent


and vice versa. So, what I said is that our


objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets


in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without


bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach


those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle


by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has


been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by


making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for


the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in


the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of


incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are


absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most


productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most


productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade


unions and the business organisations, and everybody who


campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their


future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge


difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make


things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing


sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.


I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow


business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims


the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a


small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs


in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're


really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,


and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t


ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job


security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors


as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important


they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you


say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that


what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole


industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he


had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our


industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered


piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,


actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what


is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on


science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You


must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an


industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say


industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you


disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he


has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in


general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with


that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let


him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we


need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and


joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That


was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed


support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is


not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there


was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to


be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you


claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to


be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I


would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances


that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of


what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the


single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs


Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very


good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant


investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is


some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would


like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what


would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with


the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain


competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg


Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we


do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about


reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're


going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only


those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention


of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a


competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave


them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest


Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made


strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise


corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could


you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our


vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong


manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at


Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,


well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't


have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union


laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing


investment. Remember, the last government took away the


Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed


corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill


economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.


I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is


left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid


point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could


say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he


could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was


enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving


training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not


know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is


if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government


says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an


industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't


made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an


impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure


this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of


millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I


spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to


Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that


Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,


its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some


bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk


away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -


based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position


because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want


to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a


smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to


articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think


the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were


anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an


objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its


right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one


thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this


morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of


financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for


skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial


investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal


under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a


financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would


be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just


released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.


The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited


about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would


be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded


as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal


about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about


what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff


free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is


where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how


the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's


negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.


It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We


are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.


Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare


claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst


encouraging people into work by making work pay.


But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work


incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?


Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,


as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.


Theresa May says she wants a country that works


for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.


It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them


to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out


and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes


But now some in her party are worried that the low earners


will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system


originally set up to encourage more people into work.


We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit


Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget


to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.


Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs


in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.


I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might


be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,


Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand


To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,


and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions


Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.


Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan


that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.


One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system


That is how much you can earn before your credit


As the Government has sought to save money,


both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,


both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,


that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.


The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.


That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep


It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.


What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?


The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.


If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer


budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains


in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,


recipients will be hit by annual deductions.


Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.


A dual-earning couple with two children under four,


with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other


working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20


hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.


Hit most by the changes would be a single parent


with a child under four, working full-time


I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given


the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.


What I would like to see is an increase in the work


allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.


That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,


because they are the people we need to absolutely make


The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs


are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.


A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact


analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures


Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect


of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.


But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit


the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.


What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first


time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year


because these reforms actually do make sense.


What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people


off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people


earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this


People are coming off welfare and into work.


Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve


The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple


Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right


that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,


for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have


I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,


because is costing us an awful lot of money.


With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's


new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,


its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it


And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,


Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side


of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit


from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed


as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed


because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going


to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for


being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus


on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic


terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is


the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this


right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the


direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too


much money out of that group of people when there are other areas


which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit


is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to


stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were


there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it


should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to


stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but


that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but


first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis


of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant


and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I


do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised


that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that


pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing


the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost


us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another


5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind


you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in


2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a


week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes


that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.


What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and


election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us


today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest


in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.


Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose


benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too


high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the


moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at


65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will


face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.


The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand


is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to


get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into


work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in


hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have


a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same


commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty


going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What


happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax


credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe


given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point


where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,


it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the


summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise


the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being


higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the


consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take


collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,


but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.


There was another attempt before the spending review last year to


increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed


to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last


year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of


that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if


we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is


singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the


paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of


the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a


diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate


will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I


will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you


put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed


it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed


circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne


introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe


so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I


don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax


threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is


in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,


and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to


improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green


paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes


necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be


done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work


and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort


our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make


sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what


you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would


that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on


in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would


it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is


first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where


they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the


re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the


IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,


and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,


because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less


incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We


don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I


would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.


-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would


prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold


razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,


getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal


Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written


by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic


and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that


people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take


on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?


This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that


enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five


deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to


Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,


genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to


make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think


she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have


a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto


commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the


personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to


an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock


that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?


What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now


the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations


Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as


a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.


It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about


ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but


after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and


allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the


triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under


pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money


out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on


the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are


up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by


Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay


for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock


and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?


As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the


intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.


Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -


who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.


That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took


against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist


Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November


2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council


of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British


In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker


who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.


From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been


involved in a number of community organisations, including


the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,


Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education


and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.


But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called


Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local


community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences


he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.


The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally


outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses


terrorists - as particularly sinister.


The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise


Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that


Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.


We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer


on their Religious Education Committee.


The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that


Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group


in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.


I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam


Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a


statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject


the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and


unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam


What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At


the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he


belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque


would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be


saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and


extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very


important decision and a very important judgment by the judge


First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer


of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of


things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand


by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody


who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential


libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and


people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's


some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who


promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a


step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing


within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really


concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were


consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What


is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It


comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for


them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist


to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a


revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And


then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.


We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,


growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political


ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular


problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the


theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that


excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good


to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi


problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of


mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on


the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll


and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are


speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we


have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in


prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But


there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will


show one face to the community because they actually need that for


a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to


operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their


constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these


people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.


And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque


stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you


surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with


Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that


decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with


extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I


don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge


that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an


extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have


a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a


law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated


violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there


is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into


question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other


Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to


say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties


from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure


could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make


it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg


has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have


to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they


say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.


But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner


and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose


them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.


It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


I am Lucy Fisher. the Week Ahead.


Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics in the south-west.


The devolution party is over, as councillors hoping for more


money and power are told they must have a mayor.


And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by St Ives MP Derek Thomas,


Let's start with the 70 child refugees brought to North Ddvon this


Welcomed by many in Torrington, but not all.


We are a local, small, close-knit community


We cannot look after our own, so why look after everybody else?


Apparently they will not be here very long, sent


Wednesday, I was told, but that is too long.


So, this man's is not the only point of view but there are


a significant number of people who feel the same as him.


I have been an MP for 18 months and I have had many, many...


The refugee crisis has been a live issue.


I have had many people cont`ct me and see me and e-mail me.


They have all wanted to do the best we can.


Whenever there is a crisis we and the government


I think it is really import`nt that we make sure the resources


are there to help these young people, and we're talking


about girls, young girls and children under 13,


There has been some discusshon about the ages and how well


You say that there haven't been people who have


spoken to you in that way, but there was a Facebook page


that was taken down this wedk because of the number


Will you be listening to those people?


Firstly, they are not coming to me, but it is important to note


that the unaccompanied children are mostly the vulnerable ones.


The ones we saw on TV a couple of weeks ago people who havd


But we're talking about young lives that for whatever reason have got


in a horrendous situation because of things out


of their control and out of other peoples control.


Linda, what would you say to these people?


Well, first of all can I just say I think there will be so many people


in Torrington who will be shck to see their community


represented by somebody with views like that.


In some ways, I kind of feel sorry for that man.


I do, because when he says it is not our problem,


actually we are an ageing population in this peninsul`,


Our health service is staffdd by a large number of people who come


here seeking work as refugeds and asylum seekers.


We need to have a lot broader minds


Here is the Prime Minister touching down at Newquay on Thursday.


Cornwall's airport was named as one of six which could get


new London landing slots because of Heathrow expansion.


Mrs May had a roundtable discussion with local businesses


about the new opportunities her decision to expand


The announcement had them dreaming in Plymouth as well,


where campaigners are battlhng to reopen the city's airport


But their hopes have been ddalt a blow by the leaking


of a long-awaited government report which says they need a ?9 mhllion


Five years after it closed, the future of Plymouth airport


But only this week campaigndrs bidding to reopen were given renewed


hope when the government announced that Heathrow will get


To get back into Heathrow once again, it would be transforlational


and underline the future of the airport for decades.


There have been various studies with opposing views.


But now the BBC can reveal that a new draft report from


the Department for Transport, which reviewed all the prevhous


studies, has concluded therd is not sufficient demand to operatd


commercially viable passengdr services from a reopened


Plymouth City Airport without government subsidy.


That is effectively saying ht is not viable again, isn't it?


No, they are not published at the moment, but what thex said


was would not be viable without government support


That is because we said we would like to see region`l air


connectivity fund support for developing the routes,


to get them to break even in the early years.


Suffer them to come back and say we do not know how it can


be viable seems to me a strange kind of language.


Fly Plymouth claimed they could reopen airport


without any subsidy, yet the plan they submitted


to the Department for Transport would require ?4 million


in government loans at launch, and a further ?5 million to cover


Looks to me and anyone else, you are asking for 9


You have to distinguish between the nature of subsidies


If it were to reopen the government would reasonably expect to be


involved in supporting the start-up of that to profit to ensure it


Government regularly supports the start-up and recommissioning


of new transport projects, so I think the two are very


The local MP Johnny Mercer wants the final report published `s soon


as possible to bring an end to the uncertainty.


The government has made it clear, as has the local authority,


that no subsidies are avail`ble for this airport, so that c`nnot


operate without a subsidy, then I think we need to havd a look


at that and decide where we go from there.


So, for now the uncertainty continues.


The Department for Transport says the final study will be


Plymouth City Council says while it is seeking to protdct


the airport in its local pl`n, its future will ultimately be


decided by an independent inspector next summer.


And Sutton Harbour Holdings which leases the airport


from the council says it will continue with its plans


Meanwhile the Prime Minister touched down at Newquay airport on Thursday,


which will benefit from Heathrow's expansion.


As she announced increased health funding for the south-west,


it looks more like Plymouth airport's malaise could be terminal.


Derek, you were with Theres` May yesterday in Newquay.


Do you think to some extent that she is hoping we will forget


about our train line by makhng announcements about the airport


I was delighted to welcome the prime to Cornwall so soon


so soon after becoming PM, it was a fantastic indication


But actually I do not think that was her intention at all.


There is a real mix of transport infrastructure we must get


right in the south-west, including the railway and roads


and including obviously the flying with aeroplanes.


Is new slots to Heathrow the solution here, could yot not


expand so that you actually have more flights abroad without having


Certainly we would welcome `nything we can to improve the econoly


and get people moving to Cornwall, in particular West Cornwall,


but I think we still need to link to London and I think the ilproved


the improved rail journeys, both the times...


Well, you asked about whethdr airport was a distraction from


Yes, with the Dawlish section of line and the improvements.


A task force has been working on the strategy, we are going to be


presenting that to the government this autumn, and we're ambitious


It is going to take time, but transport is about all these


things, the roads, the A30 being a dual carriageway


all the way to Penzance, that is what I'm arguing for.


When you were an MP in Plymouth the airport


Do you think Plymouth will now suffer at the hands of Newqtay,


money will go to Newquay rather than Plymouth City Airport?


Well, it was that in the beginning which undermined Plymouth when


Flybe started running flights in front of the ones


that hopped over from Plymouth


to Newquay, got enough passengers to keep it going.


I have an adjournment debatd in Parliament, I championed airport,


and there were I think 130 plus thousand people flying


Fly Plymouth will obviously be mindful that they would havd that


kind of cooperation again in order to get the numbers up.


Do you think it can ever happen can we forget Plymouth City Airport


and concentrate on the two others, Exeter and Newquay?


There are loads of hurdles to overcome and that one.


We thought we had come to the point where we were given


The railway is absolutely vhtal not just about improvement but


about keeping that bit of connectivity,


and our connectivity is fragile, open.


Back to the three airports, do we need them or should


Well, I think Fly Plymouth obviously have to put


They have owned up to the f`ct that they need some sort of subsidy,


We are talking 9 million, Ddrek to reopen Plymouth airport.


It actually doesn't sound like that much money.


But you will be familiar with the helicopter link,


or what was, from Penzance to the Isles of Scilly.


I tried to get some subsidy for that, which is a really


important link, but it was not available or forthcoming.


Sometimes we have to stop looking always to the government


or the councils to give grants and make the business case.


It is galling for people down here, I know we had assurances th`t


infrastructure will be lookdd at, but to see the kind of monex


being spent on HS2 and up to the north, when you cannot get


the money to prop open your airport or to fix the link at Dawlish.


Well, that is absolutely right, and if we're going to get the khnd of


growth we have potential for, and productivity, then we need to solve


these problems and get coopdration both from government but also within


the communities, to make our connectivity across the piece is


good it -- as good as it can get. If the people of Plymouth can lake this


happen, that will be good for the economy, but we the governmdnt needs


to concentrate on really good road infrastructure, rail infrastructure.


But the money has to come from somewhere. And there is mondy.. It


was very disappointing that Theresa May was not giving more substance to


the money that will be needdd for the Dawlish bit of the line. That is


important for you in Cornwall as well. But the strategy is not before


the government yet. She is talking about much less money than hs needed


to do it. So we're still wahting to hear the confirmation of th`t.


Council leaders in the South West have reacted angrily to comlents


made by the community secretary during a visit to is Exeter last


week. Sergei Javid told thel that if they wanted more money and power,


south-west powerhouse lead by one south-west powerhouse lead by one


person. He said the devoluthon deal was not ambitious, and if the


council wanted to make a difference, they had to have a major.


July seemed to bring a new dawn for local government. This is a very big


deal. Cornwall is the first county to get these new powers. Cornwall


had just secured the first lajor devolution deal outside the big


cities. Powers over adult training, economic development, bus rdgulation


Lingle Don. I was delighted to Lingle Don. I was delighted to


travel down with the Prime Linister to celebrate it and to do so over a


paint that evening. In fact, the government spent a year and more


toasting the flagship Cornish devolution deal, and suggesting the


county's trailblazing for uncle rural areas wanting to get ` slice


of the action. Suddenly, thd beer now seems to have turned rather


sour. Unambitious deal, and frankly the Cornwall one was not ambitious,


did not include any money, had few hours, so they will no one that got


away with not having a mayor, so you have got to ask yourself wh`t is the


point of going down this ro`d in unless you want to make a


difference, and if you do, xou have to have a mayor. I very much object


to being threatened and being told we will do this with you but only if


you organise it this way. I think that is wrong. We do not do that. We


talked about what the deal would be and what we can relinquish, we talk


about how we can do things, but we do not say, but you must do it in


this manner, and I do not think government should be saying that to


us either. It is the cider drinking counties of Devon and Somerset who


have been warned by the comlunity secretary not to drink from the same


cup as the unambitious Cornhsh. They want to secure a joint devolution


deal for the two counties, but the one thing they will not swallow is


an elected mayor. Three months ago it was all smiles and celebrations


as the government assure thdm they did not need to have a mayor. But


the party is over now. From anyone who wants ambitious and deal, they


have to have a mayor. He made it clear at the beginning that for in


order for us to have the money and power, we had to have a mayor.


Afterwards I spoke to him, `nd said Afterwards I spoke to him, `nd said


that this is a nonstarter. @mong the collective hangover, voices in the


business community say that accepting a mayor could be the only


way to make the good times roll again. This is the important message


for the public sector leaders. If we're going to unlock the btsiness


investment, and it is a hugd appetite to do that, business will


invest, they need strong le`dership, they need to steer from a cdntral


person, the mayor, to make sure they understand exactly where we are


going with our plans for thd future. With the community secretarx's


comments casting a long shadow over the South West's existing ddvolution


plans, councillors seem detdrmined to walk their own regardless. The


question, whether that is ddstined to see them run into the sand. So,


what is this obsession the Tories have with Mayers question -,


mayors?. The money and the power goes with the mayor, you cannot have


the money empowered if you do not have one, why? This was passed by


all parties. But why? They have decided that is the way to get the


economy working better. If xou look at the Cornish council, we have an


independent party led counchl, and over the last four years, I do not


see much they have done to help business. So many things thdy have


done of hindered business. H get so frustrated of people saying they are


not understanding --... Perhaps this is not the best way to go forward.


Which way do you see of going forward here? Do you think ht would


be beneficial for Devon to have a mayor? No, I do not. It is clear


that all people who have bedn working on the plans for thd


combined authority have identified what they cold the golden


opportunities. They have got a very clear idea of what they want to


deliver with new powers and money. And I think, I do not know what


constituents Sajid Javid represents, because we do not need top-down


and Cornwall Police is saying that and Cornwall Police is saying that


this is what we want to do `nd this is what we want to do it, then


hopefully MPs will be standhng up that. -- people in. An easidr


solution would settle all this. We have a council election in Lay, let


us ask the people of Cornwall whether they want a mayor are not.


It does not need to be a referendum, it could be what each polithcal


party sets before the peopld. It was rejected in Plymouth when there was


a request to foist a mayor on as. a request to foist a mayor on as.


And in Torbay it has not bedn a success. I am closely involved in


the devolution deal with John Pollock, and I know that many of the


things in these meetings do not things in these meetings do not


represent what people are tdlling me out and about, and people are


unclear about what the devolution deal is. We are serious abott health


and social care integration. That is because it is top-down, and the


structures are there aren't being developed, and listening to people


in a constructive way, but `t the moment somebody top-down from the


metropolitan elite telling people in Devon and Cornwall Police to do and


how is not what we need mord of Sounds like the opposite of


devolution, someone telling Devon devolution, someone telling Devon


and Cornwall what to do. As we heard, the first area to have a


devolution deal, and there `re number things round transport,


Sergei Javid said it did not involve Sergei Javid said it did not involve


money, what is the point of going down that route? -- Sajid J`vid I


cannot see why it would be ` problem. I was on the progr`mme with


the leader when this was behng put forward. The problem with the deal


is because they went early `nd too quickly. They put it togethdr in a


hurry, and I said at the tile that I didn't think it would be a good


thing for them to be amongst the first. They seem to think it was a


good idea but I think they would have been better waiting, crafting


it together more carefully. If it is not working now, I do not think that


is lack of the mayor, it is lack of care and attention to getting the


programme right in the beginning. We have to move on. It is time for our


round-up of the political wdek in 60 seconds.


On a visit to Cornwall, the Prime Minister says decisions abott


cutting health services must be made locally. We're going to see over the


next two years, up to 2020, a significant amount of extra money


being put into the south-west for health services. What the hdalth


service is now doing is talking to local areas about how that hs going


to be spent and what servicds will be provided in different ardas. A


council decision to paint the double yellow line in the middle of a road


is raised in the Commons by the South East Cornwall MP. Can you tell


nobody can do about this? Tdll them to vote Conservative! The pdople of


Torquay be tall -- are told there will be no Christmas lights this


year after the responsibility for funding them was handed to the


Chamber of Commerce. That mhght mean job losses and shops closing, it


might mean developers will take one look at Torquay and say we do not


want to know. OK, Linda, we heard Theresa May say that there would be


more money for the region for health services, albeit that difficult


decisions would have to be lade locally about it. Where you


reassured by that? I thought she would very uncomfortable herself


when she said that, and it hs very when she said that, and it hs very


sad that some quite good pl`ns for the transformation of the hdalth


service are being made against a background of cuts. She is seeing


more money, but more money when exactly? Is it now or later? Is an


hour later? I do not think ht is a lot because she was seeing difficult


decisions would have to be lade I have been involved in the


transformation plan, and I see it not as a way to cut the cost of


funding but to integrate services so you prayed I'd better service to


people. -- back to provide. Once we have the transformation plan


together, there is a pot of money, ?8 billion, available for us to bid


so we can transform services before we see others. That is not `ll for


Cornwall. There were MPs lining up to attack plans to cut beds and


hospitals. If you look at Cornwall, most people agree that we h`ve beds


in the wrong place and not dnough in the right place. So what we are


arguing for those looking at what beds we have across the system and


making sure they really work. I need to stop because we want to talk


about the Christmas lights hn Torquay briefly. No Christm`s


lights. Is listening sample of weird it would have been better to have


left it to the council? I think a lot of people will be saying yes,


but clearly the right hand hasn t been speaking to the left and people


have not been getting together. I think it is desperately sad and hope


that local people can be innovative and coming up with ways. It seems so


sad. Voluntary groups do a fantastic Barely more than a week


now until polling day, and a new revelation rocks the US


Presidential election campaign. If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just


got more bizarre. The FBI have reopened their


investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of private email servers


whilst she was Secretary of State, after the discovery


of further emails. Though not on her laptop or even the


State Department. Donald Trump is saying that it's


bigger than Watergate - so could it swing the election


in his favour? We spoke to top US


pollster, Frank Luntz. The FBI investigation is happening


so late in the election process that it would be very difficult


to derail a Clinton victory. That said, if there is one thing


that could keep Hillary Clinton from the presidency,


it's an FBI investigation. But there's still only four states


that really matter, Florida, Ohio, Right now, Clinton has


beyond the margin of error leads This would have to have a truly


significant impact for the election There is a point about a week ago


when I was prepared to say that Clinton had a 95% chance


of winning this election. Based on what has happened


in the last 48 hours, It is still very likely,


but I wouldn't bet on it. I thought the 2000 election would be


the best election of my lifetime, And then I thought 2008 would be


amazing, because we had two challenger candidates and the first


African-American President. It is ugly, it's painful,


it is as negative as anything The public is angry,


the country, overall, is frustrated. But for entertainment value,


these candidates probably should have charged us money,


because it's better than any movie at ever seen, it's


better than any TV show. That was Frank Luntz. He may be


right or wrong about Mrs Clinton still having an 80% chance of


winning. I would bet on an 80% chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to


a high-profile American pollster and strategist last night and he took a


rather different view to Frank Luntz. He thought, and I think some


other high-profile commentators agree, that this is actually much


more serious than some people realise. There are an awful lot of


undecided voters out there looking for an excuse to vote Trump. They do


not like what they see in either candidate. But because this FBI


probe is not going to conclude before the election, the question,


the doubt over Hillary Clinton, gives them an excuse to back Trump.


The thing that will play on the minds of the voters is, could the


100 day honeymoon turning to the 100 day divorce? Which even be


impeached? It may give some people an excuse not to vote for Mrs


Clinton. It could provide a problem in terms of energising her base The


battle ground almost matters more than the polls. Florida and


Pennsylvania have been trending to Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win


both. He does not get in without both. He needs both. Just coming up


in the latest BBC News, the Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs


Clinton is now only one point ahead in the national poll. One point


Even given my caveat that the state battles are most important. That is


incredibly close? It is. Polls yesterday showed Trump nationally


closing of. -- up. There is a clear trend and movement. This has


reinforced everything that people who have a problem with Hillary


Clinton know about Hillary Clinton. Trump is running this insurgent


campaign. We have seen at here with Brexit. If you are running an


insurgent campaign, you want to be against the ultimate establishment


insider and that is what Hillary Clinton is. I suggested it was


bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of the FBI is interesting as well. This


is a separate investigation into a former congressman, Anthony Wiener,


who had done all sorts of things. He seemed to be sex text thing a minor.


A 15-year-old girl. The FBI investigate. They get his laptop to


see what else he has been too. In the course of that, his wife, now


separated, the closest adviser to Hillary Clinton, they find on the


laptop e-mails involving the Clinton server to her. And yet the FBI


cannot, it needs now a separate warrant to access these e-mails It


hasn't got that yet. It has got a warrant to do the congressman


e-mails. On the basis of not knowing the content, this has happened.


Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican, this guy. Earlier this year he was


being praised to the hilt by Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is


a nightmare for her. You described the whole sequence. There is nothing


definitive to doubt in this sequence. All he is saying is he has


discovered more e-mails in effect. They are from the congressman's


former wife. On Anthony Wiener's laptop, which apparently she used


sometimes. But what that shows is that for all the scrutiny of modern


politicians, they cannot escape caricature. And as Tim was just


saying, her weakness is perceived to be secretive, elitism and


complacency about that elitism. And so just the announcement of a


reopening of the investigation so fuels that caricature, you have just


revealed a poll giving her a 1% lead. That must be related to what


has happened. It is without a shred of evidence that she has done


anything wrong. You can see how because people only see things


encourage kids, that is deadly serious. -- in caricature. An


American friend of mine said we have got our October surprise but we


don't know what it is. The FBI must surely come under massive pressure.


It did its -- it did this against the Justice Department. The


difficulty the FBI had was that this information, for what it's worth, it


came to them. Were they not to have said something and it worked to have


come out later, they would have been accused of a massive cover-up. They


are dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. There is still time for


another surprise. And early November surprise. Who knows if there might


still be something that comes out on Donald Trump? This is the first


election where I can remember we have had two October surprises


already. There are is stuff about tapes knocking around about Donald


Trump saying racist things. The Clintons have got a lot of friends.


It would be a big surprise if we did not see anything else in the next


few days. Just when you think it could not get


more interesting, it has. There has been plenty in the papers lately


about the Ukip leadership saying unpleasant things about each other.


But what about Mr Farage himself? What's he up to?


Well, on BBC Two tonight we may find out the answer.


Well, I'm led to believe she's very experienced.


But I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.


That is, unless, of course, you fancy popping a cheeky zero


No, I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.


Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just lost your programme one viewer.


I might have nothing to do these days but, realistically,


Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel


Farage gets his life back. A number of runners and riders. Let's come


straight down to it. Who would be the next leader of Ukip? Probably


Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite. The one who has the backing, not


very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a


big donor. The best of a rather weak lot. I think Paul Nuttall should


squeak through. I interviewed all three of them this week. Mr


Cassandra is a lively character and he knows how to make a few


headlines. With a bit of money behind him, anything is possible.


This is a guy who has been to the States, who has literally studied


what Trump has done. Pees on secondment for the time being. The


guy who is his line manager is one of Donald Trump's campaign stop He


is extraordinarily right-wing. I am told he kept a picture of Enoch


Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater is one of his heroes, for example.


There are other candidates. I would suggest, put out as a hypothesis,


Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst nightmare. They are more vulnerable


in the North. Paul Nuttall is from Merseyside, a working-class


background, performs well on television. He is a really good


interviewee. He is one of the best around in politics at the moment.


However, I think whoever gets it has a massive task. The clip of this


Nigel Farage satire partly shows why. His dominance was overwhelming.


He, in many ways, did a brilliant job at keeping the show on the road.


The trouble for all new political parties is keeping it going is


tough. A very different party, the SDP, with all those glamorous


figures in it, lasted eight years, something like that. I think they


are in real trouble at the moment because of the implosion we have


been seeing in front of our eyes and the ideal -- ideological splits


Whoever gets it will face a tough tussle. All three of the main


contenders want to put Nigel Farage in the House of Lords. They were


falling over themselves to soak up two farads. That is how you win this


election. Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting


his money on? He said he supports Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly


fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He thinks it is terribly disorganised,


dysfunctional and doesn't want a great deal to do with it for the


foreseeable future. It is not quite Trump the Clinton


but it is interesting. That is it. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow.


And all of next week. Jo Coburn will be your next Sunday because I am off


to the United States to begin to rehearse presenting the BBC's US


election night coverage on the th of November. It will be here on BBC


One, BBC world, BBC News Channel and BBC


online. Remember if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics.


Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by Iain Duncan Smith, Chi Onwurah and Haras Rafiq of the Quilliam Foundation. The Daily Mail's Isabel Oakeshott, commentator Steve Richards and Tim Shipman of The Sunday Times are on the political panel.

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