30/10/2016 Sunday Politics South West


30/10/2016

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:39.

Theresa May says she wants to help people who are

:00:40.:00:41.

"just about managing" - so should she reverse

:00:42.:00:44.

George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people

:00:45.:00:47.

Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,

:00:48.:00:54.

says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.

:00:55.:00:57.

So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?

:00:58.:01:02.

Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation

:01:03.:01:07.

into her use of a private email server - is this the boost

:01:08.:01:10.

Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?

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Now it is just a question of building that runway with the

:01:24.:01:25.

political problems that lie ahead. And haunting the studio

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on this Halloween weekend, the most terrifying political

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panel in the business - Tim 'Ghost' Shipman,

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'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and First this morning, two

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new models of car to be built, securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant

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in Sunderland and a further 28, 00 The news from Nissan on Thursday

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was seized on by Leave campaigners as evidence that the British

:01:52.:01:57.

economy is in rude health This morning, the Business

:01:58.:02:00.

Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked what assurances were given

:02:01.:02:04.

to the Japanese firm's bosses Well, it's in no-one's the interest

:02:05.:02:07.

for there to be tariff barriers to the continent

:02:08.:02:14.

and vice versa. So, what I said is that our

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objective would be to ensure that we have continued access to the markets

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in Europe and vice versa, without tariffs and without

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bureaucratic impediments. That is how we will approach

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those negotiations. We're joined now from Newcastle

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by the Shadow Business Welcome to the programme. Labour has

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been a bit sceptical about this Nissan decision. Can we begin by

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making it clear just what a great achievement this is, above all for

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the workers of Sunderland who have some of the highest productivity in

:02:59.:03:03.

the world, have never been on strike for 30 years, and produce cars of

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incredible quality. This is their victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are

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absolutely right. The Nissan plant in Sunderland is among the most

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productive in the world. The workers of Nissan are amongst the most

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productive as well. And it's really a victory for them and for the trade

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unions and the business organisations, and everybody who

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campaigned to make sure that the government couldn't ignore their

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future. It's our future. I'm the MP for Newcastle. It makes a huge

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difference to the region. We are a region that still likes to make

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things that work. It is a huge part of our advanced manufacturing

:03:46.:03:50.

sector. So it's really something we welcome as well as the job security.

:03:51.:03:55.

I'm glad we have got that on the record from the Labour shadow

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business secretary. But your Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims

:04:01.:04:03.

the government is ignoring manufacturers and cares only about a

:04:04.:04:09.

small banking elite. In what way is safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs

:04:10.:04:12.

in the North safeguarding a financial elite? As I said, we're

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really pleased that the campaigning by trade unions and the workforce,

:04:18.:04:21.

and business organisations, meant the government felt they couldn t

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ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be clear that we want that kind of job

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security for all of those working in manufacturing and in other sectors

:04:30.:04:34.

as well. And sweetheart deals for one company, no matter how important

:04:35.:04:39.

they are, that does not an industrial strategy make. Why'd you

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say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg Clark told the BBC this morning that

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what was assured to Nissan is an assurance he gives to the whole

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industrial sector? I was really pleased to see Greg Clark felt he

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had to say something, even though it's sad that we having our

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industrial strategy, you like, or our approach to Brexit delivered

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piecemeal to the media rather than to the British people and Nissan,

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actually. But he want published the letter. He said he has told us what

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is in the letter and that reassurances given on training, on

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science and on supporting the supply chain for the automated sector. You

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must be in favour all -- of all of that? We are in favour of an

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industrial strategy. Greg Clark unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say

:05:32.:05:40.

industrial strategy. I'm still puzzling to find out what it is you

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disagree with. Let me put the question. You said the assurances he

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has given to Nissan are available to the car manufacturing sector in

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general and indeed to industry in general. What is your problem with

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that? Two things. Let him publish the letter so we can see that, let

:06:01.:06:04.

him have the transparency he's pretending to offer. But also, we

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need an industrial strategy that values -- that is values based and

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joined. He talked about electric cars and supporting green cars. That

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was in regard to Nissan. At the same time the government has slashed

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support for other areas of green technology. So what is it? That is

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not to do with the Nissan deal. Labour implied at some stage there

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was some financial inducement, some secret bribes, that doesn't seem to

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be the case. You are not claiming that any more -- any more. Then you

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claimed it was a sweetheart deal for one company. That turns out not to

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be the case. What criticism are you left with on this Nissan deal? I

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would be really surprised if all that Nissan got was the reassurances

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that Greg Clark is shared with us. He didn't answer the question of

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what happens if we can't get continued tariff free access to the

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single market, if we are not within the single market or the Customs

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Union. Do you really think a negotiator like Nissan, who are very

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good at negotiating, they would have excepted making this significant

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investment without some further reassurances? Do you think there is

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some kind of financial bride and if so what is the evidence? I would

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like to see the letter published and I would also like to understand what

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would happen... There are 27 countries which need to agree with

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the deal we have from Brexit. What will Nissan, how will Nissan remain

:07:47.:07:50.

competitive? How will the automotive industry remain competitive? Greg

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Clark says he reassured them on that. But how will that be so if we

:07:57.:08:00.

do not get access? We haven't heard anything about that. He talks about

:08:01.:08:09.

reassurances given to Nissan. We need to make -- to know where we're

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going to make sure Brexit is in the interest of all workers, not only

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those who work for a Nissan and not only those who can get the attention

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of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan that Britain would remain a

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competitive place to do business. That was the main assurance he gave

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them. He would help with skills and infrastructure and all the rest

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Since you are -- intend to repeal the trade union laws that have made

:08:37.:08:39.

strikes in Britain largely a thing of the past, and you plan to raise

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corporation tax, you couldn't give Nissan the same assurance, could

:08:44.:08:48.

you? We could absolutely give Nissan the assurance that we will be, our

:08:49.:08:53.

vision of the future of the UK, is based on having a strong

:08:54.:08:57.

manufacturing sector. Repealing trade union laws? As we have seen at

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Nissan, the industrial sector is dependent on having highly trained,

:09:08.:09:15.

well skilled workers. -- highly skilled, well-trained. You don't

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have that by getting -- having an aggressive policy and trade union

:09:21.:09:24.

laws or by slashing corporation tax and not supporting manufacturing

:09:25.:09:28.

investment. Remember, the last government took away the

:09:29.:09:31.

Manufacturing allowances which supported Manufacturing and slashed

:09:32.:09:36.

corporation tax. That is their solution. It is a low tax, low skill

:09:37.:09:40.

economy they want. Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you.

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I'm grateful for you joining us I'm still struggling to see what is

:09:45.:09:55.

left of Labour's criticism? Yeah, except for this. This was a valid

:09:56.:09:59.

point she just made. What we know for sure is that Greg Clark could

:10:00.:10:03.

say to Nissan, my aim is to get tariff free deal. There is no way he

:10:04.:10:09.

could guarantee that. None of us know that. I don't think that was

:10:10.:10:13.

enough. I think clearly there was a more detailed package involving

:10:14.:10:20.

training and other things. He has acknowledged this, albeit we do not

:10:21.:10:24.

know the precise mechanism. What I think is interesting about this is

:10:25.:10:27.

if you reverse what happened this week, at a time when the government

:10:28.:10:31.

says Britain is open for business and it is going to have an

:10:32.:10:36.

industrial strategy, so far it is a bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't

:10:37.:10:40.

made this commitment. Imagine what would have happened? It is an

:10:41.:10:43.

impossible scenario. The government seems to me was obliged to make sure

:10:44.:10:50.

this didn't happen. Let's not forget Nissan has invested hundreds of

:10:51.:10:53.

millions in the north-east. It has been a huge success story. When I

:10:54.:10:58.

spoke to workers from Nissan, they were so proud because they went to

:10:59.:11:02.

Japan to teach the Japanese had to be more productive. The idea that

:11:03.:11:06.

Nissan was just going to walk away from this given its track record,

:11:07.:11:10.

its importance, wasn't really credible. The government had some

:11:11.:11:16.

bargaining chips. Absolutely, of course they weren't going to walk

:11:17.:11:20.

away. The majority of people in the area in which Nissan is braced -

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based, voted for Brexit. Nissan knows it is in a powerful position

:11:25.:11:29.

because it is an emotive sector Clearly the government didn't want

:11:30.:11:31.

to have some big showdown. I honestly don't think this is a

:11:32.:11:38.

smoking gun. The Labour Shadow minister really struggled to

:11:39.:11:41.

articulate what exactly she thinks the government is hiding. I think

:11:42.:11:44.

the reassurances were given were pretty anodyne, really. They were

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anodyne and general. And what Greg Clark was setting out was an

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objective and he made the right noises, and Nissan exercised its

:11:53.:11:56.

right to sabre rattle. It does have a history of doing that. The one

:11:57.:12:02.

thing that would now be clear given Greg Clark's performance this

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morning on the BBC, is that if we were to discover some kind of

:12:07.:12:08.

financial incentive directly linked to this investment, not more for

:12:09.:12:13.

skills or infrastructure, that is fine, but some direct financial

:12:14.:12:19.

investment, compensation for tariffs, which would be illegal

:12:20.:12:21.

under World Trade Organisation rules, what you might call a

:12:22.:12:27.

financial bride, the sect -- the business Secretary's position would

:12:28.:12:31.

be untenable? He would be in a very difficult position indeed. Just

:12:32.:12:34.

released the letter. There is nothing to hide. Put it out there.

:12:35.:12:38.

The most revealing thing is that people are getting wildly excited

:12:39.:12:43.

about the fact Greg Clark announced Britain's negotiating position would

:12:44.:12:47.

be that we would like tariff free trade with Europe. This is regarded

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as an insight into what this comment is doing and it says a great deal

:12:52.:12:54.

about how little we have been told in Parliament and the media about

:12:55.:13:00.

what they are up. Do you think it is exciting we are going for tariff

:13:01.:13:03.

free trade? We're easily excited these days. We don't know. This is

:13:04.:13:11.

where these things are at such a tentative phase. We don't know how

:13:12.:13:15.

the rest of the European Union is going to respond to Britain's

:13:16.:13:21.

negotiating hand. We know Britain once the best of everything, please.

:13:22.:13:26.

It is a starting point. But that is not how it is going to end up. We

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are getting wider than that. We have will have to see.

:13:32.:13:33.

Now, Universal Credit, a single payment made to welfare

:13:34.:13:35.

claimants that would roll together a plethora of benefits whilst

:13:36.:13:37.

encouraging people into work by making work pay.

:13:38.:13:40.

But have cuts to the flagship welfare scheme reduced work

:13:41.:13:42.

incentives and hit the incomes of the least well-off?

:13:43.:13:48.

Well, some of the government's own MPs think so, and,

:13:49.:13:50.

as Mark Lobel reports, want the cuts reversed.

:13:51.:13:57.

Theresa May says she wants a country that works

:13:58.:14:00.

for everyone, that's on the side of ordinary, working people.

:14:01.:14:04.

It means never writing off people who can work and consigning them

:14:05.:14:07.

to a life on benefits, but giving them the chance to go out

:14:08.:14:10.

and earn a living and to enjoy the dignity that comes

:14:11.:14:13.

But now some in her party are worried that the low earners

:14:14.:14:19.

will be hit by changes to Universal Credit benefit system

:14:20.:14:24.

originally set up to encourage more people into work.

:14:25.:14:26.

We also need to focus tax credits and Universal Credit

:14:27.:14:29.

Concern centred on the Government's decision in the July 2015 budget

:14:30.:14:35.

to find ?3 billion worth of savings from the Universal Credit bill.

:14:36.:14:44.

Conservative MP Heidi Allen is working on a campaign to get MPs

:14:45.:14:47.

in her party to urge the Prime Minister to think again.

:14:48.:14:55.

I want her to understand for herself what the outcomes might

:14:56.:14:58.

be if we press ahead with the Universal Credit,

:14:59.:15:00.

Do you think Theresa May, right now, understands what you understand

:15:01.:15:04.

To be fair, unless you really get into the detail,

:15:05.:15:07.

and I have through my work on the Work and Pensions

:15:08.:15:10.

Select Committee, I don't think anybody does.

:15:11.:15:11.

Independent economic analysts at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan

:15:12.:15:17.

that cuts to Universal Credit weaken incentives to work.

:15:18.:15:22.

One of the key parts of the Universal Credit system

:15:23.:15:24.

That is how much you can earn before your credit

:15:25.:15:28.

As the Government has sought to save money,

:15:29.:15:30.

both under the Coalition and now they Conservative Government,

:15:31.:15:33.

both under the Coalition and now the Conservative Government,

:15:34.:15:35.

that work allowance has been cut, time and time again.

:15:36.:15:37.

The biggest cuts happened in the summer budget of 2015.

:15:38.:15:40.

That basically reduces the amount of earnings you get to keep

:15:41.:15:42.

It weakens the incentive people have to move into work.

:15:43.:15:46.

What do changes to the Universal Credit system mean?

:15:47.:15:48.

The Resolution Foundation think tank has crunched the numbers.

:15:49.:15:51.

If you compare what would have happened before the July 2015 summer

:15:52.:15:55.

budget to what will happen by 2 20, even if you take into account gains

:15:56.:15:58.

in the National Living Wage and income tax cuts,

:15:59.:16:00.

recipients will be hit by annual deductions.

:16:01.:16:05.

Couples and parents would receive, on average, ?1000 less.

:16:06.:16:09.

A dual-earning couple with two children under four,

:16:10.:16:11.

with one partner working full-time on ?10.50 an hour and the other

:16:12.:16:14.

working part-time on the minimum wage for around 20

:16:15.:16:17.

hours a week, they would receive ?1800 less.

:16:18.:16:24.

Hit most by the changes would be a single parent

:16:25.:16:26.

with a child under four, working full-time

:16:27.:16:28.

I think, if I'm honest, it is unrealistic, given

:16:29.:16:42.

the economic climate, to expect everything to be reversed.

:16:43.:16:45.

What I would like to see is an increase in the work

:16:46.:16:51.

allowances to those people who will be hardest hit.

:16:52.:16:54.

That is single parents and second earners hoping to return to work,

:16:55.:16:57.

because they are the people we need to absolutely make

:16:58.:16:59.

The Sunday Politics understands that about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs

:17:00.:17:04.

are pushing for changes ahead of the Autumn Statement.

:17:05.:17:07.

A former cabinet minister told us that they believed further impact

:17:08.:17:11.

analysis should be done to find out if any mitigation measures

:17:12.:17:13.

Former Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, an architect

:17:14.:17:20.

of the system, now says the cuts should be reversed.

:17:21.:17:24.

But his former department has told us that it has no plans to revisit

:17:25.:17:29.

the work allowance changes announced in the budget last year.

:17:30.:17:34.

What I would say to Heidi Allen and IDS, they got it right the first

:17:35.:17:37.

time and they should stick to the vote they cast last year

:17:38.:17:40.

because these reforms actually do make sense.

:17:41.:17:42.

What interests me is the fact we are trying to move people

:17:43.:17:45.

off welfare into work, we are raising the wages people

:17:46.:17:47.

earn by massively increasing the minimum wage and this

:17:48.:17:49.

People are coming off welfare and into work.

:17:50.:17:53.

Campaigners are pushing for savings to come from other areas to relieve

:17:54.:17:56.

The other thing we have to start looking at is the triple

:17:57.:18:02.

Financially it has been a great policy, and it was absolutely right

:18:03.:18:06.

that we lifted pensioners who were significantly behind,

:18:07.:18:08.

for many years, in terms of income levels, but they have

:18:09.:18:10.

I think it is time for us to look at that policy again,

:18:11.:18:16.

because is costing us an awful lot of money.

:18:17.:18:18.

With just over three weeks to wait until the Conservative leadership's

:18:19.:18:21.

new economic plan is unveiled in the Autumn Statement,

:18:22.:18:24.

its top team is under pressure from within its own ranks to use it

:18:25.:18:27.

And I'm joined now by former Work and Pensions Secretary,

:18:28.:18:37.

Welcome back to the programme. Theresa May said she is on the side

:18:38.:18:45.

of the just managing, the working poor. But they are about to be hit

:18:46.:18:50.

from all sides. Their modest living standards are going to be squeezed

:18:51.:18:54.

as inflation overtakes pay rises, they will be further squeezed

:18:55.:18:58.

because top-up benefits in work are frozen. Incentives to work are going

:18:59.:19:01.

to be reduced by the cuts in universal benefits. So much for

:19:02.:19:06.

being on the side of those just managing? Theresa was right to focus

:19:07.:19:11.

on this group. The definition has to be the bottom half, in economic

:19:12.:19:18.

terms, of the social structure. It doesn't look good for them? This is

:19:19.:19:22.

the point I am making, it is an opportunity to put some of this

:19:23.:19:25.

right. One of the reasons I resigned in March is because I felt the

:19:26.:19:28.

direction of travel we had been going in had been to take far too

:19:29.:19:32.

much money out of that group of people when there are other areas

:19:33.:19:36.

which, if you need to make some of those savings, you can. The key bit

:19:37.:19:40.

is that the group needs to be helped through into work and encouraged to

:19:41.:19:43.

stay in work. There was a report done with the IFS, when we were

:19:44.:19:47.

there, at Universal Credit. It said Universal Credit rolled out, as it

:19:48.:19:53.

should have been before the cuts, people would be much more likely to

:19:54.:19:57.

stay in work longer and earn more money. It is a net positive, but

:19:58.:20:01.

that is now called into question. Let's unpick some of the detail but

:20:02.:20:05.

first, do you accept the words of David Willets? It says on the basis

:20:06.:20:09.

of the things I read out to you that the just managing face a significant

:20:10.:20:16.

and painful cut in real terms if we continue on the way we are going. I

:20:17.:20:21.

do, in essence. That is the reason why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised

:20:22.:20:29.

that issue as well, that we got the balance wrong. It is right that

:20:30.:20:33.

pensioners get to a certain point, when they are on a level par, doing

:20:34.:20:37.

the right thing over five years Staying with that process has cost

:20:38.:20:42.

us ?18 billion extra this year, in total. It will go on costing another

:20:43.:20:50.

5 billion. Then there is the issue of tax allowances. I want to remind

:20:51.:20:55.

you and viewers what David Cameron told the Conservative conference in

:20:56.:21:02.

2009. If you are a single mother with two children, earning ?150 a

:21:03.:21:07.

week, the withdrawal of your benefits and the additional taxes

:21:08.:21:11.

that you pay me on that for every extra you earn, you keep just 4p.

:21:12.:21:18.

What kind of incentive is that? 30 years ago, this party won and

:21:19.:21:24.

election fighting against 98% tax rates for the Rex richest. I want us

:21:25.:21:34.

today to show even more anger about 96% tax rates for the very poorest

:21:35.:21:39.

in our country. Real anger, and effective rate of over 90%.

:21:40.:21:45.

Universal Credit reduces that. Some will still face, as they lose

:21:46.:21:49.

benefits and pay tax, a marginal rate of over 75%. That is still too

:21:50.:21:54.

high? Yes, it is the collision between those going into work at the

:21:55.:21:58.

moment they start paying tax. A racial Universal Credit is set at

:21:59.:22:03.

65%. You can call that the base marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will

:22:04.:22:09.

face 75%? That is the point about why the allowances are so important.

:22:10.:22:13.

The point about the allowances which viewers might not fully understand

:22:14.:22:16.

is that it was set, as part of Universal Credit, to allow you to

:22:17.:22:20.

get certain people, with certain difficulties, as they cross into

:22:21.:22:23.

work, to retain more benefit before it is tapered away as they go up in

:22:24.:22:30.

hours. A lone parent, who might have various issues, you want her to have

:22:31.:22:34.

a bigger incentive than a single person that does not have the same

:22:35.:22:38.

commitments. It is structured so that somebody who has difficulty

:22:39.:22:42.

going to work, they all have slightly different rates. What

:22:43.:22:44.

happened is that last year a decision was taken to reduce tax

:22:45.:22:48.

credits, and, on the back of that, to reduce allowances. I believe

:22:49.:22:52.

given everything that happened now, we need to restore that to the point

:22:53.:22:58.

where it helps those people crossing over. You say a decision was taken,

:22:59.:23:01.

it was a decision by the former Chancellor George Osborne in the

:23:02.:23:06.

summer budget. Other decisions were taken in successive Budgets to raise

:23:07.:23:10.

the Universal Credit budget, which resulted in the disincentive being

:23:11.:23:13.

higher than many people wanted. Do you accept that has been the

:23:14.:23:18.

consequence of his decisions? I was in the Government, we take

:23:19.:23:21.

collective responsibility. I argued this was not the right way to go,

:23:22.:23:25.

but when you are in you have to stay with it if you lose that argument.

:23:26.:23:28.

There was another attempt before the spending review last year to

:23:29.:23:32.

increase the taper, so the marginal rate would have gone up. I managed

:23:33.:23:37.

to stop that. I'm Sibley saying what we made as a decision last

:23:38.:23:40.

year, given the circumstances and given that the net effect of all of

:23:41.:23:46.

that, I think it is time for the Government to ask the question, if

:23:47.:23:49.

we are in this to help that group of people, Universal Credit is

:23:50.:23:53.

singularly the most powerful tool. One of the Argentine aid in the

:23:54.:23:56.

paper published on Thursday, we are set going on doing two more races of

:23:57.:24:02.

the tax threshold, taking more people out of tax. That has a

:24:03.:24:08.

diminishing effect on the bottom section. Only 25p in that tax rate

:24:09.:24:14.

will help any of those. Most of it goes to middle income? You and I

:24:15.:24:18.

will benefit more from that. With Universal Credit, every pound you

:24:19.:24:22.

put into that will go to the bottom five tenths. That is why I designed

:24:23.:24:26.

it like that. He pressed the button and immediately start to changed

:24:27.:24:31.

circumstances. Should the cuts in Universal Credit that Mr Osborne

:24:32.:24:34.

introduced, against your argument, should they be reversed? I believe

:24:35.:24:40.

so. I believe you can do it even if there is concern about spending I

:24:41.:24:43.

don't believe you need to go through with the continuing raise the tax

:24:44.:24:47.

threshold. Cost is dependent on inflation, but give or take. It is

:24:48.:24:55.

in the Tory manifesto? Has more than doubled. What is in the manifesto,

:24:56.:25:00.

and Lasse Prime Minister made this clear in conference, we want to

:25:01.:25:06.

improve the life chances of people. Today's announcement on the Green

:25:07.:25:09.

paper is what I wrote over the last two and a half years. Big changes

:25:10.:25:12.

necessary to how we deal with sickness benefit. That can now be

:25:13.:25:17.

done because of Universal Credit, because people can go back to work

:25:18.:25:20.

and it tapers away their benefits. It is the most powerful tool to sort

:25:21.:25:24.

our people that live in poverty Universal Credit. We need to make

:25:25.:25:29.

sure it lands positively. If Mr Osborne's cuts were reversed, what

:25:30.:25:32.

you and some of your backbench Tory colleagues want to do, how would

:25:33.:25:37.

that improve the incentives of the working poor, as they try to get on

:25:38.:25:43.

in life? They have to pay more tax, they lose some benefits. How would

:25:44.:25:49.

it improve it? Would many still face a 75% rate? The key question is

:25:50.:25:53.

first and foremost, as people move through income to the point where

:25:54.:25:58.

they are getting taxed, that group will be enormously benefited by the

:25:59.:26:01.

re-emergence of these allowances at the right level. That is what the

:26:02.:26:07.

IFS have said, that is what the Resolution Foundation are saying,

:26:08.:26:11.

and the Centre For Social Justice is saying. You have to get that group,

:26:12.:26:15.

because they are most likely to be drifting into poverty and less

:26:16.:26:19.

incomes are right. Would it help those who face a 75% margin? We

:26:20.:26:24.

don't face that. Exactly right. People much poorer than us do. I

:26:25.:26:29.

would love to get the marginal rate down to testify percent, and lower,.

:26:30.:26:38.

-- down to 65%. It is a balance of how you spend the money. I would

:26:39.:26:41.

prefer to do that rather than necessarily go ahead with threshold

:26:42.:26:49.

razors. I think the coronation of the marginal reduction of 65%,

:26:50.:26:54.

getting it down to 60%, plus more allowances, will allow Universal

:26:55.:26:57.

Credit to get to the group that is going to be, and the report written

:26:58.:27:01.

by the IFS and ourselves, it shows it is going to be the most dynamic

:27:02.:27:05.

and direct ability of a Government to be able to influence the way that

:27:06.:27:09.

people improve their incomes in the bottom five deciles. Would you take

:27:10.:27:16.

on extra work if you knew you were going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %?

:27:17.:27:22.

This has been my argument all along. Universal Credit can help that

:27:23.:27:27.

enormously. One point that goes missing, 70% of the bottom five

:27:28.:27:32.

deciles will be on Universal Credit. Whatever change you make to

:27:33.:27:34.

Universal Credit has a dramatic and immediate effect I am arguing,

:27:35.:27:40.

genuinely, it is time to rethink this. The Prime Minister wants to

:27:41.:27:44.

make this a priority. I am completely with her on this. I think

:27:45.:27:48.

she made a really good start. To deliver this, we need to... You have

:27:49.:27:53.

a lot of work to do to deliver it. Because it is a manifesto

:27:54.:27:57.

commitment, or because they want to do it, stopping increasing the

:27:58.:28:02.

personal allowances are not acceptable, what about bringing to

:28:03.:28:05.

an end, by the end of the parliament, the pension triple lock

:28:06.:28:10.

that pensioners enjoy to improve and put more money to the working poor?

:28:11.:28:17.

What about that? Well, you are absolutely right that there is now

:28:18.:28:21.

the danger, I think, of a mess balance between the generations

:28:22.:28:24.

Quite rightly at the beginning, when we came in, we have a commitment as

:28:25.:28:28.

a Conservative Party in a manifesto to get pensions back onto earnings.

:28:29.:28:34.

It was moved to a triple lock that guaranteed a minimum. What about

:28:35.:28:39.

ending up now? I understand it is a promise through the Parliament, but

:28:40.:28:43.

after 2020? I am in favour of getting it back to innings and

:28:44.:28:47.

allowing it to rise at reasonable levels. Moving from earnings to the

:28:48.:28:52.

triple lock has cost ?18 billion this year. Here was a high, under

:28:53.:28:56.

pressure, as the Government was scratching around to pay more money

:28:57.:29:00.

out of working age areas, when the budget was almost out of control on

:29:01.:29:04.

the pension side. I'm in favour of helping pensioners, but now they are

:29:05.:29:07.

up to a reasonable level, at a steady rate, that can be afforded by

:29:08.:29:11.

Government, which takes the pressure off, working age people have to pay

:29:12.:29:16.

for that. In years to come, time to end the triple lock

:29:17.:29:27.

and use the savings to help these people we have been talking about?

:29:28.:29:31.

As part of a load of packages, yes. It would also help with the

:29:32.:29:33.

intergenerational fairness argument. Thank you for being with us.

:29:34.:29:36.

Now, a prominent London Imam called Shakeel Begg -

:29:37.:29:38.

who is Chief Imam the Lewisham Islamic Centre - is an extremist.

:29:39.:29:41.

That was the verdict of the judge in a libel action that Mr Begg took

:29:42.:29:45.

against the BBC, after we described him as an Islamic extremist

:29:46.:29:48.

Mr Begg had complained about a short segment in an interview in November

:29:49.:29:52.

2013 with Farooq Murad, the then head of the Muslim Council

:29:53.:29:55.

of Britain, an organisation which claims to represent British

:29:56.:29:57.

In that interview, we described Mr Begg as an extremist speaker

:29:58.:30:03.

who had hailed jihad is the greatest of deeds.

:30:04.:30:05.

From his base of the Lewisham Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been

:30:06.:30:09.

involved in a number of community organisations, including

:30:10.:30:13.

the Police Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham,

:30:14.:30:15.

Lewisham Council's Advisory Council on Religious Education

:30:16.:30:20.

and as a volunteer chaplain at Lewisham Hospital.

:30:21.:30:23.

But in his judgment, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called

:30:24.:30:28.

Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character - a trusted figure in his local

:30:29.:30:32.

community, but when talking to predominantly Muslim audiences

:30:33.:30:35.

he shed the cloak of respectability and revealed the horns of extremism.

:30:36.:30:40.

The judge cited one speech made by Mr Begg at a rally

:30:41.:30:43.

outside Belmarsh Prisonm- the high security prison that houses

:30:44.:30:45.

terrorists - as particularly sinister.

:30:46.:30:49.

The judge said the imam was expressing admiration and praise

:30:50.:30:51.

Following Friday's judgment, the hospital trust have told us that

:30:52.:30:57.

Mr Begg's status as a voluntary chaplain has been terminated.

:30:58.:31:02.

We have been told by Lewisham Council he is no longer

:31:03.:31:05.

on their Religious Education Committee.

:31:06.:31:07.

The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that

:31:08.:31:09.

Mr Begg remains a member of their Independent Advisory Group

:31:10.:31:14.

in Lewisham, as well as the borough's faith group.

:31:15.:31:23.

I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the Quilliam

:31:24.:31:27.

Foundation. Welcome to the programme. I have here in my hand a

:31:28.:31:35.

statement from the trustees of the Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject

:31:36.:31:41.

the judge's ruling as fanciful and say they are unequivocal and

:31:42.:31:43.

unwavering in their support of Shakeel Begg as their head imam

:31:44.:31:50.

What do you make of that? To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. At

:31:51.:31:54.

the end of the day he is only the imam of that mosque because he

:31:55.:31:58.

belongs to the same theological fundamentalist views that the mosque

:31:59.:32:03.

would portray. If they were to say he was an extremist, they would be

:32:04.:32:08.

saying in fact that they have allowed extremist preaching and

:32:09.:32:11.

extremist theology within their walls. I think this is a very

:32:12.:32:17.

important decision and a very important judgment by the judge

:32:18.:32:24.

First of all, these people like to operate in a linear, under a veneer

:32:25.:32:28.

of respectability. When that veneer is taken away, there are a number of

:32:29.:32:33.

things that can happen. First of all, the BBC did very well to stand

:32:34.:32:37.

by their guns and say, we're not going to be intimidated by somebody

:32:38.:32:44.

who is threatening to taking -- to take us to court for potential

:32:45.:32:48.

libel. Many other media companies have done that in the past and

:32:49.:32:53.

people have capitulated. Also, this has exposed him. Legally now, here's

:32:54.:32:58.

some deal can be classified as an extremist preacher, somebody who

:32:59.:33:02.

promotes religious violence. I think the mosque really needs to take a

:33:03.:33:06.

step back and say, how we part of the problem that we are facing

:33:07.:33:10.

within society? Or are we going to be part of the solution? It really

:33:11.:33:18.

concerns me. The High Court judge says that Mr Begg's speeches were

:33:19.:33:23.

consistent with an extremist Salafist is the most worldview. What

:33:24.:33:31.

is Salafist is and how widespread is it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It

:33:32.:33:41.

comes from the Middle East. It is from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for

:33:42.:33:44.

them was the old colonial Ottoman Empire. There is the quiet Salafist

:33:45.:33:53.

to get some with their lives, lives outside society. There is a

:33:54.:33:55.

revolutionary who tries to convert other people to their worldview And

:33:56.:33:59.

then there is the Salafist jihad ease. People like Islamic State etc.

:34:00.:34:06.

We have seen of increased in recent decades because of money that has,

:34:07.:34:09.

growing from the Middle East. When that is mixed with a political

:34:10.:34:15.

ideology, it becomes potent. Do we have a political -- particular

:34:16.:34:19.

problem in Britain with this in our mosques? Absolutely. Without the

:34:20.:34:25.

theology that says hate the other, hate other Muslims, that

:34:26.:34:27.

excommunicate other people, that says it is OK to fight and is good

:34:28.:34:33.

to fight when you have got an enemy, we wouldn't really have a jihadi

:34:34.:34:36.

problem. Really that is something we have to tackle. The number of

:34:37.:34:44.

mosques and institutions supporting Salafist and Islam is has been on

:34:45.:34:49.

the increase. Do we have a problem with what the judge called Jekyll

:34:50.:34:54.

and Hyde characters who hide their extremism except when they are

:34:55.:35:00.

speaking to specific groups? Absolutely. One of the things we

:35:01.:35:05.

have focused on in the past, a number of hate preachers now in

:35:06.:35:09.

prison, people like Anjem Choudary, and everybody focused on them. But

:35:10.:35:13.

there is a range of people operating under that level. People who will

:35:14.:35:17.

show one face to the community because they actually need that for

:35:18.:35:22.

a respectability. They need that for a legitimacy. They need that to

:35:23.:35:25.

operate. When they are behind closed doors and talking to their

:35:26.:35:30.

constitution, that is when you will see the real face of what these

:35:31.:35:35.

people believe. It is an increasing phenomenon. We are seeing it more.

:35:36.:35:38.

And we're going to carry on seeing it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque

:35:39.:35:46.

stuck by him, but given the clarity of the judge's ruling, are you

:35:47.:35:50.

surprised that the Metropolitan police would wish to continue with

:35:51.:35:55.

Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm absolutely shocked that that

:35:56.:35:58.

decision. What Uzzy going to do Advise them on how to deal with

:35:59.:36:04.

extremist preachers and promote religiously motivated violence? I

:36:05.:36:06.

don't know what he's going to advise them on. Because we now have a judge

:36:07.:36:12.

that has ruled against him and actually classified him as an

:36:13.:36:15.

extremist and somebody who promotes religious violence, we actually have

:36:16.:36:20.

a possibility for the CPS to actually prosecute him. There is a

:36:21.:36:25.

law that has been in place since 2005 called religiously motivated

:36:26.:36:28.

violence. If he has been classified as somebody who promotes this, there

:36:29.:36:33.

is a potential for the CPS to prosecute. I want to called into

:36:34.:36:37.

question other organisations, interfaith organisations, other

:36:38.:36:41.

Muslims groups, who say they want to fight extremism, I call on them to

:36:42.:36:47.

say, this guy is an extremist preacher, we should cut our ties

:36:48.:36:56.

from him. This was a very high risk strategy by the BBC. The exposure

:36:57.:37:01.

could have been over ?1.5 million of licence payers money. Will this make

:37:02.:37:06.

it more difficult for Jekyll and Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg

:37:07.:37:13.

has behaved? Absolutely. It will do. One of the things they will now have

:37:14.:37:17.

to make sure is that they are a lot more careful. Careful with what they

:37:18.:37:24.

say to their own constituency. It won't solve the theological problem.

:37:25.:37:28.

But it will actually stop other people from operating in this manner

:37:29.:37:32.

and allow other media organisations to have the confidence to expose

:37:33.:37:36.

them when they do. Haras Rafiq, thank you for joining us.

:37:37.:37:39.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:40.:37:41.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:42.:37:43.

I am Lucy Fisher. the Week Ahead.

:37:44.:37:59.

Coming up on the Sunday Polhtics in the south-west.

:38:00.:38:02.

The devolution party is over, as councillors hoping for more

:38:03.:38:05.

money and power are told they must have a mayor.

:38:06.:38:13.

And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by St Ives MP Derek Thomas,

:38:14.:38:16.

Let's start with the 70 child refugees brought to North Ddvon this

:38:17.:38:22.

Welcomed by many in Torrington, but not all.

:38:23.:38:31.

We are a local, small, close-knit community

:38:32.:38:33.

We cannot look after our own, so why look after everybody else?

:38:34.:38:45.

Apparently they will not be here very long, sent

:38:46.:38:48.

Wednesday, I was told, but that is too long.

:38:49.:38:52.

So, this man's is not the only point of view but there are

:38:53.:38:56.

a significant number of people who feel the same as him.

:38:57.:38:59.

I have been an MP for 18 months and I have had many, many...

:39:00.:39:07.

The refugee crisis has been a live issue.

:39:08.:39:09.

I have had many people cont`ct me and see me and e-mail me.

:39:10.:39:12.

They have all wanted to do the best we can.

:39:13.:39:16.

Whenever there is a crisis we and the government

:39:17.:39:19.

I think it is really import`nt that we make sure the resources

:39:20.:39:24.

are there to help these young people, and we're talking

:39:25.:39:26.

about girls, young girls and children under 13,

:39:27.:39:28.

There has been some discusshon about the ages and how well

:39:29.:39:32.

You say that there haven't been people who have

:39:33.:39:37.

spoken to you in that way, but there was a Facebook page

:39:38.:39:39.

that was taken down this wedk because of the number

:39:40.:39:42.

Will you be listening to those people?

:39:43.:39:48.

Firstly, they are not coming to me, but it is important to note

:39:49.:39:51.

that the unaccompanied children are mostly the vulnerable ones.

:39:52.:39:53.

The ones we saw on TV a couple of weeks ago people who havd

:39:54.:40:01.

But we're talking about young lives that for whatever reason have got

:40:02.:40:08.

in a horrendous situation because of things out

:40:09.:40:10.

of their control and out of other peoples control.

:40:11.:40:12.

Linda, what would you say to these people?

:40:13.:40:14.

Well, first of all can I just say I think there will be so many people

:40:15.:40:18.

in Torrington who will be shck to see their community

:40:19.:40:20.

represented by somebody with views like that.

:40:21.:40:25.

In some ways, I kind of feel sorry for that man.

:40:26.:40:28.

I do, because when he says it is not our problem,

:40:29.:40:30.

actually we are an ageing population in this peninsul`,

:40:31.:40:33.

Our health service is staffdd by a large number of people who come

:40:34.:40:40.

here seeking work as refugeds and asylum seekers.

:40:41.:40:42.

We need to have a lot broader minds

:40:43.:40:44.

Here is the Prime Minister touching down at Newquay on Thursday.

:40:45.:40:55.

Cornwall's airport was named as one of six which could get

:40:56.:40:58.

new London landing slots because of Heathrow expansion.

:40:59.:41:04.

Mrs May had a roundtable discussion with local businesses

:41:05.:41:06.

about the new opportunities her decision to expand

:41:07.:41:08.

The announcement had them dreaming in Plymouth as well,

:41:09.:41:15.

where campaigners are battlhng to reopen the city's airport

:41:16.:41:17.

But their hopes have been ddalt a blow by the leaking

:41:18.:41:27.

of a long-awaited government report which says they need a ?9 mhllion

:41:28.:41:30.

Five years after it closed, the future of Plymouth airport

:41:31.:41:35.

But only this week campaigndrs bidding to reopen were given renewed

:41:36.:41:41.

hope when the government announced that Heathrow will get

:41:42.:41:43.

To get back into Heathrow once again, it would be transforlational

:41:44.:41:56.

and underline the future of the airport for decades.

:41:57.:41:58.

There have been various studies with opposing views.

:41:59.:42:05.

But now the BBC can reveal that a new draft report from

:42:06.:42:08.

the Department for Transport, which reviewed all the prevhous

:42:09.:42:10.

studies, has concluded therd is not sufficient demand to operatd

:42:11.:42:12.

commercially viable passengdr services from a reopened

:42:13.:42:14.

Plymouth City Airport without government subsidy.

:42:15.:42:18.

That is effectively saying ht is not viable again, isn't it?

:42:19.:42:24.

No, they are not published at the moment, but what thex said

:42:25.:42:28.

was would not be viable without government support

:42:29.:42:29.

That is because we said we would like to see region`l air

:42:30.:42:43.

connectivity fund support for developing the routes,

:42:44.:42:45.

to get them to break even in the early years.

:42:46.:42:47.

Suffer them to come back and say we do not know how it can

:42:48.:42:50.

be viable seems to me a strange kind of language.

:42:51.:42:53.

Fly Plymouth claimed they could reopen airport

:42:54.:42:55.

without any subsidy, yet the plan they submitted

:42:56.:42:56.

to the Department for Transport would require ?4 million

:42:57.:42:59.

in government loans at launch, and a further ?5 million to cover

:43:00.:43:02.

Looks to me and anyone else, you are asking for 9

:43:03.:43:06.

You have to distinguish between the nature of subsidies

:43:07.:43:09.

If it were to reopen the government would reasonably expect to be

:43:10.:43:16.

involved in supporting the start-up of that to profit to ensure it

:43:17.:43:19.

Government regularly supports the start-up and recommissioning

:43:20.:43:22.

of new transport projects, so I think the two are very

:43:23.:43:24.

The local MP Johnny Mercer wants the final report published `s soon

:43:25.:43:30.

as possible to bring an end to the uncertainty.

:43:31.:43:34.

The government has made it clear, as has the local authority,

:43:35.:43:38.

that no subsidies are avail`ble for this airport, so that c`nnot

:43:39.:43:40.

operate without a subsidy, then I think we need to havd a look

:43:41.:43:43.

at that and decide where we go from there.

:43:44.:43:46.

So, for now the uncertainty continues.

:43:47.:43:49.

The Department for Transport says the final study will be

:43:50.:43:51.

Plymouth City Council says while it is seeking to protdct

:43:52.:43:56.

the airport in its local pl`n, its future will ultimately be

:43:57.:43:59.

decided by an independent inspector next summer.

:44:00.:44:03.

And Sutton Harbour Holdings which leases the airport

:44:04.:44:05.

from the council says it will continue with its plans

:44:06.:44:07.

Meanwhile the Prime Minister touched down at Newquay airport on Thursday,

:44:08.:44:19.

which will benefit from Heathrow's expansion.

:44:20.:44:22.

As she announced increased health funding for the south-west,

:44:23.:44:24.

it looks more like Plymouth airport's malaise could be terminal.

:44:25.:44:33.

Derek, you were with Theres` May yesterday in Newquay.

:44:34.:44:36.

Do you think to some extent that she is hoping we will forget

:44:37.:44:39.

about our train line by makhng announcements about the airport

:44:40.:44:44.

I was delighted to welcome the prime to Cornwall so soon

:44:45.:44:51.

so soon after becoming PM, it was a fantastic indication

:44:52.:44:54.

But actually I do not think that was her intention at all.

:44:55.:44:58.

There is a real mix of transport infrastructure we must get

:44:59.:45:01.

right in the south-west, including the railway and roads

:45:02.:45:04.

and including obviously the flying with aeroplanes.

:45:05.:45:06.

Is new slots to Heathrow the solution here, could yot not

:45:07.:45:09.

expand so that you actually have more flights abroad without having

:45:10.:45:11.

Certainly we would welcome `nything we can to improve the econoly

:45:12.:45:16.

and get people moving to Cornwall, in particular West Cornwall,

:45:17.:45:22.

but I think we still need to link to London and I think the ilproved

:45:23.:45:29.

the improved rail journeys, both the times...

:45:30.:45:35.

Well, you asked about whethdr airport was a distraction from

:45:36.:45:39.

Yes, with the Dawlish section of line and the improvements.

:45:40.:45:55.

A task force has been working on the strategy, we are going to be

:45:56.:45:59.

presenting that to the government this autumn, and we're ambitious

:46:00.:46:02.

It is going to take time, but transport is about all these

:46:03.:46:06.

things, the roads, the A30 being a dual carriageway

:46:07.:46:08.

all the way to Penzance, that is what I'm arguing for.

:46:09.:46:13.

When you were an MP in Plymouth the airport

:46:14.:46:14.

Do you think Plymouth will now suffer at the hands of Newqtay,

:46:15.:46:18.

money will go to Newquay rather than Plymouth City Airport?

:46:19.:46:28.

Well, it was that in the beginning which undermined Plymouth when

:46:29.:46:31.

Flybe started running flights in front of the ones

:46:32.:46:33.

that hopped over from Plymouth

:46:34.:46:34.

to Newquay, got enough passengers to keep it going.

:46:35.:46:37.

I have an adjournment debatd in Parliament, I championed airport,

:46:38.:46:40.

and there were I think 130 plus thousand people flying

:46:41.:46:42.

Fly Plymouth will obviously be mindful that they would havd that

:46:43.:46:47.

kind of cooperation again in order to get the numbers up.

:46:48.:46:49.

Do you think it can ever happen can we forget Plymouth City Airport

:46:50.:46:52.

and concentrate on the two others, Exeter and Newquay?

:46:53.:46:54.

There are loads of hurdles to overcome and that one.

:46:55.:47:00.

We thought we had come to the point where we were given

:47:01.:47:03.

The railway is absolutely vhtal not just about improvement but

:47:04.:47:10.

about keeping that bit of connectivity,

:47:11.:47:13.

and our connectivity is fragile, open.

:47:14.:47:15.

Back to the three airports, do we need them or should

:47:16.:47:18.

Well, I think Fly Plymouth obviously have to put

:47:19.:47:23.

They have owned up to the f`ct that they need some sort of subsidy,

:47:24.:47:29.

We are talking 9 million, Ddrek to reopen Plymouth airport.

:47:30.:47:42.

It actually doesn't sound like that much money.

:47:43.:47:49.

But you will be familiar with the helicopter link,

:47:50.:47:51.

or what was, from Penzance to the Isles of Scilly.

:47:52.:47:53.

I tried to get some subsidy for that, which is a really

:47:54.:47:56.

important link, but it was not available or forthcoming.

:47:57.:47:58.

Sometimes we have to stop looking always to the government

:47:59.:48:10.

or the councils to give grants and make the business case.

:48:11.:48:14.

It is galling for people down here, I know we had assurances th`t

:48:15.:48:17.

infrastructure will be lookdd at, but to see the kind of monex

:48:18.:48:20.

being spent on HS2 and up to the north, when you cannot get

:48:21.:48:23.

the money to prop open your airport or to fix the link at Dawlish.

:48:24.:48:27.

Well, that is absolutely right, and if we're going to get the khnd of

:48:28.:48:33.

growth we have potential for, and productivity, then we need to solve

:48:34.:48:37.

these problems and get coopdration both from government but also within

:48:38.:48:42.

the communities, to make our connectivity across the piece is

:48:43.:48:49.

good it -- as good as it can get. If the people of Plymouth can lake this

:48:50.:48:53.

happen, that will be good for the economy, but we the governmdnt needs

:48:54.:48:59.

to concentrate on really good road infrastructure, rail infrastructure.

:49:00.:49:02.

But the money has to come from somewhere. And there is mondy.. It

:49:03.:49:07.

was very disappointing that Theresa May was not giving more substance to

:49:08.:49:12.

the money that will be needdd for the Dawlish bit of the line. That is

:49:13.:49:18.

important for you in Cornwall as well. But the strategy is not before

:49:19.:49:23.

the government yet. She is talking about much less money than hs needed

:49:24.:49:29.

to do it. So we're still wahting to hear the confirmation of th`t.

:49:30.:49:32.

Council leaders in the South West have reacted angrily to comlents

:49:33.:49:35.

made by the community secretary during a visit to is Exeter last

:49:36.:49:41.

week. Sergei Javid told thel that if they wanted more money and power,

:49:42.:49:46.

south-west powerhouse lead by one south-west powerhouse lead by one

:49:47.:49:51.

person. He said the devoluthon deal was not ambitious, and if the

:49:52.:49:54.

council wanted to make a difference, they had to have a major.

:49:55.:50:03.

July seemed to bring a new dawn for local government. This is a very big

:50:04.:50:06.

deal. Cornwall is the first county to get these new powers. Cornwall

:50:07.:50:10.

had just secured the first lajor devolution deal outside the big

:50:11.:50:15.

cities. Powers over adult training, economic development, bus rdgulation

:50:16.:50:20.

Lingle Don. I was delighted to Lingle Don. I was delighted to

:50:21.:50:29.

travel down with the Prime Linister to celebrate it and to do so over a

:50:30.:50:34.

paint that evening. In fact, the government spent a year and more

:50:35.:50:41.

toasting the flagship Cornish devolution deal, and suggesting the

:50:42.:50:44.

county's trailblazing for uncle rural areas wanting to get ` slice

:50:45.:50:50.

of the action. Suddenly, thd beer now seems to have turned rather

:50:51.:51:02.

sour. Unambitious deal, and frankly the Cornwall one was not ambitious,

:51:03.:51:07.

did not include any money, had few hours, so they will no one that got

:51:08.:51:12.

away with not having a mayor, so you have got to ask yourself wh`t is the

:51:13.:51:15.

point of going down this ro`d in unless you want to make a

:51:16.:51:19.

difference, and if you do, xou have to have a mayor. I very much object

:51:20.:51:28.

to being threatened and being told we will do this with you but only if

:51:29.:51:32.

you organise it this way. I think that is wrong. We do not do that. We

:51:33.:51:37.

talked about what the deal would be and what we can relinquish, we talk

:51:38.:51:42.

about how we can do things, but we do not say, but you must do it in

:51:43.:51:45.

this manner, and I do not think government should be saying that to

:51:46.:51:52.

us either. It is the cider drinking counties of Devon and Somerset who

:51:53.:51:55.

have been warned by the comlunity secretary not to drink from the same

:51:56.:52:01.

cup as the unambitious Cornhsh. They want to secure a joint devolution

:52:02.:52:04.

deal for the two counties, but the one thing they will not swallow is

:52:05.:52:10.

an elected mayor. Three months ago it was all smiles and celebrations

:52:11.:52:15.

as the government assure thdm they did not need to have a mayor. But

:52:16.:52:21.

the party is over now. From anyone who wants ambitious and deal, they

:52:22.:52:25.

have to have a mayor. He made it clear at the beginning that for in

:52:26.:52:30.

order for us to have the money and power, we had to have a mayor.

:52:31.:52:33.

Afterwards I spoke to him, `nd said Afterwards I spoke to him, `nd said

:52:34.:52:41.

that this is a nonstarter. @mong the collective hangover, voices in the

:52:42.:52:44.

business community say that accepting a mayor could be the only

:52:45.:52:47.

way to make the good times roll again. This is the important message

:52:48.:52:52.

for the public sector leaders. If we're going to unlock the btsiness

:52:53.:52:57.

investment, and it is a hugd appetite to do that, business will

:52:58.:53:00.

invest, they need strong le`dership, they need to steer from a cdntral

:53:01.:53:05.

person, the mayor, to make sure they understand exactly where we are

:53:06.:53:12.

going with our plans for thd future. With the community secretarx's

:53:13.:53:15.

comments casting a long shadow over the South West's existing ddvolution

:53:16.:53:18.

plans, councillors seem detdrmined to walk their own regardless. The

:53:19.:53:22.

question, whether that is ddstined to see them run into the sand. So,

:53:23.:53:29.

what is this obsession the Tories have with Mayers question -,

:53:30.:53:45.

mayors?. The money and the power goes with the mayor, you cannot have

:53:46.:53:48.

the money empowered if you do not have one, why? This was passed by

:53:49.:53:55.

all parties. But why? They have decided that is the way to get the

:53:56.:53:58.

economy working better. If xou look at the Cornish council, we have an

:53:59.:54:04.

independent party led counchl, and over the last four years, I do not

:54:05.:54:10.

see much they have done to help business. So many things thdy have

:54:11.:54:14.

done of hindered business. H get so frustrated of people saying they are

:54:15.:54:24.

not understanding --... Perhaps this is not the best way to go forward.

:54:25.:54:28.

Which way do you see of going forward here? Do you think ht would

:54:29.:54:33.

be beneficial for Devon to have a mayor? No, I do not. It is clear

:54:34.:54:37.

that all people who have bedn working on the plans for thd

:54:38.:54:41.

combined authority have identified what they cold the golden

:54:42.:54:44.

opportunities. They have got a very clear idea of what they want to

:54:45.:54:49.

deliver with new powers and money. And I think, I do not know what

:54:50.:54:58.

constituents Sajid Javid represents, because we do not need top-down

:54:59.:55:02.

and Cornwall Police is saying that and Cornwall Police is saying that

:55:03.:55:06.

this is what we want to do `nd this is what we want to do it, then

:55:07.:55:12.

hopefully MPs will be standhng up that. -- people in. An easidr

:55:13.:55:28.

solution would settle all this. We have a council election in Lay, let

:55:29.:55:32.

us ask the people of Cornwall whether they want a mayor are not.

:55:33.:55:38.

It does not need to be a referendum, it could be what each polithcal

:55:39.:55:40.

party sets before the peopld. It was rejected in Plymouth when there was

:55:41.:55:42.

a request to foist a mayor on as. a request to foist a mayor on as.

:55:43.:55:49.

And in Torbay it has not bedn a success. I am closely involved in

:55:50.:55:55.

the devolution deal with John Pollock, and I know that many of the

:55:56.:55:57.

things in these meetings do not things in these meetings do not

:55:58.:55:59.

represent what people are tdlling me out and about, and people are

:56:00.:56:03.

unclear about what the devolution deal is. We are serious abott health

:56:04.:56:09.

and social care integration. That is because it is top-down, and the

:56:10.:56:15.

structures are there aren't being developed, and listening to people

:56:16.:56:20.

in a constructive way, but `t the moment somebody top-down from the

:56:21.:56:23.

metropolitan elite telling people in Devon and Cornwall Police to do and

:56:24.:56:28.

how is not what we need mord of Sounds like the opposite of

:56:29.:56:29.

devolution, someone telling Devon devolution, someone telling Devon

:56:30.:56:35.

and Cornwall what to do. As we heard, the first area to have a

:56:36.:56:39.

devolution deal, and there `re number things round transport,

:56:40.:56:46.

Sergei Javid said it did not involve Sergei Javid said it did not involve

:56:47.:56:50.

money, what is the point of going down that route? -- Sajid J`vid I

:56:51.:56:58.

cannot see why it would be ` problem. I was on the progr`mme with

:56:59.:57:02.

the leader when this was behng put forward. The problem with the deal

:57:03.:57:05.

is because they went early `nd too quickly. They put it togethdr in a

:57:06.:57:09.

hurry, and I said at the tile that I didn't think it would be a good

:57:10.:57:15.

thing for them to be amongst the first. They seem to think it was a

:57:16.:57:18.

good idea but I think they would have been better waiting, crafting

:57:19.:57:20.

it together more carefully. If it is not working now, I do not think that

:57:21.:57:25.

is lack of the mayor, it is lack of care and attention to getting the

:57:26.:57:28.

programme right in the beginning. We have to move on. It is time for our

:57:29.:57:32.

round-up of the political wdek in 60 seconds.

:57:33.:57:39.

On a visit to Cornwall, the Prime Minister says decisions abott

:57:40.:57:46.

cutting health services must be made locally. We're going to see over the

:57:47.:57:51.

next two years, up to 2020, a significant amount of extra money

:57:52.:57:59.

being put into the south-west for health services. What the hdalth

:58:00.:58:04.

service is now doing is talking to local areas about how that hs going

:58:05.:58:07.

to be spent and what servicds will be provided in different ardas. A

:58:08.:58:10.

council decision to paint the double yellow line in the middle of a road

:58:11.:58:13.

is raised in the Commons by the South East Cornwall MP. Can you tell

:58:14.:58:20.

nobody can do about this? Tdll them to vote Conservative! The pdople of

:58:21.:58:25.

Torquay be tall -- are told there will be no Christmas lights this

:58:26.:58:28.

year after the responsibility for funding them was handed to the

:58:29.:58:32.

Chamber of Commerce. That mhght mean job losses and shops closing, it

:58:33.:58:36.

might mean developers will take one look at Torquay and say we do not

:58:37.:58:44.

want to know. OK, Linda, we heard Theresa May say that there would be

:58:45.:58:47.

more money for the region for health services, albeit that difficult

:58:48.:58:49.

decisions would have to be lade locally about it. Where you

:58:50.:58:57.

reassured by that? I thought she would very uncomfortable herself

:58:58.:58:57.

when she said that, and it hs very when she said that, and it hs very

:58:58.:59:02.

sad that some quite good pl`ns for the transformation of the hdalth

:59:03.:59:05.

service are being made against a background of cuts. She is seeing

:59:06.:59:11.

more money, but more money when exactly? Is it now or later? Is an

:59:12.:59:21.

hour later? I do not think ht is a lot because she was seeing difficult

:59:22.:59:24.

decisions would have to be lade I have been involved in the

:59:25.:59:28.

transformation plan, and I see it not as a way to cut the cost of

:59:29.:59:33.

funding but to integrate services so you prayed I'd better service to

:59:34.:59:40.

people. -- back to provide. Once we have the transformation plan

:59:41.:59:44.

together, there is a pot of money, ?8 billion, available for us to bid

:59:45.:59:48.

so we can transform services before we see others. That is not `ll for

:59:49.:59:57.

Cornwall. There were MPs lining up to attack plans to cut beds and

:59:58.:00:02.

hospitals. If you look at Cornwall, most people agree that we h`ve beds

:00:03.:00:06.

in the wrong place and not dnough in the right place. So what we are

:00:07.:00:09.

arguing for those looking at what beds we have across the system and

:00:10.:00:15.

making sure they really work. I need to stop because we want to talk

:00:16.:00:19.

about the Christmas lights hn Torquay briefly. No Christm`s

:00:20.:00:22.

lights. Is listening sample of weird it would have been better to have

:00:23.:00:26.

left it to the council? I think a lot of people will be saying yes,

:00:27.:00:30.

but clearly the right hand hasn t been speaking to the left and people

:00:31.:00:35.

have not been getting together. I think it is desperately sad and hope

:00:36.:00:38.

that local people can be innovative and coming up with ways. It seems so

:00:39.:00:44.

sad. Voluntary groups do a fantastic Barely more than a week

:00:45.:00:57.

now until polling day, and a new revelation rocks the US

:00:58.:01:01.

Presidential election campaign. If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just

:01:02.:01:11.

got more bizarre. The FBI have reopened their

:01:12.:01:15.

investigation into Hillary Clinton's use of private email servers

:01:16.:01:17.

whilst she was Secretary of State, after the discovery

:01:18.:01:19.

of further emails. Though not on her laptop or even the

:01:20.:01:27.

State Department. Donald Trump is saying that it's

:01:28.:01:32.

bigger than Watergate - so could it swing the election

:01:33.:01:34.

in his favour? We spoke to top US

:01:35.:01:37.

pollster, Frank Luntz. The FBI investigation is happening

:01:38.:01:38.

so late in the election process that it would be very difficult

:01:39.:01:42.

to derail a Clinton victory. That said, if there is one thing

:01:43.:01:46.

that could keep Hillary Clinton from the presidency,

:01:47.:01:49.

it's an FBI investigation. But there's still only four states

:01:50.:01:55.

that really matter, Florida, Ohio, Right now, Clinton has

:01:56.:01:57.

beyond the margin of error leads This would have to have a truly

:01:58.:02:02.

significant impact for the election There is a point about a week ago

:02:03.:02:10.

when I was prepared to say that Clinton had a 95% chance

:02:11.:02:17.

of winning this election. Based on what has happened

:02:18.:02:22.

in the last 48 hours, It is still very likely,

:02:23.:02:28.

but I wouldn't bet on it. I thought the 2000 election would be

:02:29.:02:33.

the best election of my lifetime, And then I thought 2008 would be

:02:34.:02:36.

amazing, because we had two challenger candidates and the first

:02:37.:02:41.

African-American President. It is ugly, it's painful,

:02:42.:02:45.

it is as negative as anything The public is angry,

:02:46.:02:54.

the country, overall, is frustrated. But for entertainment value,

:02:55.:02:59.

these candidates probably should have charged us money,

:03:00.:03:06.

because it's better than any movie at ever seen, it's

:03:07.:03:10.

better than any TV show. That was Frank Luntz. He may be

:03:11.:03:23.

right or wrong about Mrs Clinton still having an 80% chance of

:03:24.:03:30.

winning. I would bet on an 80% chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to

:03:31.:03:34.

a high-profile American pollster and strategist last night and he took a

:03:35.:03:37.

rather different view to Frank Luntz. He thought, and I think some

:03:38.:03:44.

other high-profile commentators agree, that this is actually much

:03:45.:03:46.

more serious than some people realise. There are an awful lot of

:03:47.:03:52.

undecided voters out there looking for an excuse to vote Trump. They do

:03:53.:03:56.

not like what they see in either candidate. But because this FBI

:03:57.:04:00.

probe is not going to conclude before the election, the question,

:04:01.:04:06.

the doubt over Hillary Clinton, gives them an excuse to back Trump.

:04:07.:04:10.

The thing that will play on the minds of the voters is, could the

:04:11.:04:15.

100 day honeymoon turning to the 100 day divorce? Which even be

:04:16.:04:21.

impeached? It may give some people an excuse not to vote for Mrs

:04:22.:04:26.

Clinton. It could provide a problem in terms of energising her base The

:04:27.:04:31.

battle ground almost matters more than the polls. Florida and

:04:32.:04:37.

Pennsylvania have been trending to Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win

:04:38.:04:43.

both. He does not get in without both. He needs both. Just coming up

:04:44.:04:52.

in the latest BBC News, the Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs

:04:53.:04:55.

Clinton is now only one point ahead in the national poll. One point

:04:56.:05:03.

Even given my caveat that the state battles are most important. That is

:05:04.:05:09.

incredibly close? It is. Polls yesterday showed Trump nationally

:05:10.:05:16.

closing of. -- up. There is a clear trend and movement. This has

:05:17.:05:18.

reinforced everything that people who have a problem with Hillary

:05:19.:05:24.

Clinton know about Hillary Clinton. Trump is running this insurgent

:05:25.:05:28.

campaign. We have seen at here with Brexit. If you are running an

:05:29.:05:33.

insurgent campaign, you want to be against the ultimate establishment

:05:34.:05:35.

insider and that is what Hillary Clinton is. I suggested it was

:05:36.:05:41.

bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of the FBI is interesting as well. This

:05:42.:05:46.

is a separate investigation into a former congressman, Anthony Wiener,

:05:47.:05:50.

who had done all sorts of things. He seemed to be sex text thing a minor.

:05:51.:05:59.

A 15-year-old girl. The FBI investigate. They get his laptop to

:06:00.:06:03.

see what else he has been too. In the course of that, his wife, now

:06:04.:06:09.

separated, the closest adviser to Hillary Clinton, they find on the

:06:10.:06:15.

laptop e-mails involving the Clinton server to her. And yet the FBI

:06:16.:06:26.

cannot, it needs now a separate warrant to access these e-mails It

:06:27.:06:30.

hasn't got that yet. It has got a warrant to do the congressman

:06:31.:06:34.

e-mails. On the basis of not knowing the content, this has happened.

:06:35.:06:41.

Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican, this guy. Earlier this year he was

:06:42.:06:47.

being praised to the hilt by Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is

:06:48.:06:52.

a nightmare for her. You described the whole sequence. There is nothing

:06:53.:06:58.

definitive to doubt in this sequence. All he is saying is he has

:06:59.:07:06.

discovered more e-mails in effect. They are from the congressman's

:07:07.:07:13.

former wife. On Anthony Wiener's laptop, which apparently she used

:07:14.:07:18.

sometimes. But what that shows is that for all the scrutiny of modern

:07:19.:07:22.

politicians, they cannot escape caricature. And as Tim was just

:07:23.:07:27.

saying, her weakness is perceived to be secretive, elitism and

:07:28.:07:33.

complacency about that elitism. And so just the announcement of a

:07:34.:07:37.

reopening of the investigation so fuels that caricature, you have just

:07:38.:07:42.

revealed a poll giving her a 1% lead. That must be related to what

:07:43.:07:49.

has happened. It is without a shred of evidence that she has done

:07:50.:07:54.

anything wrong. You can see how because people only see things

:07:55.:07:57.

encourage kids, that is deadly serious. -- in caricature. An

:07:58.:08:04.

American friend of mine said we have got our October surprise but we

:08:05.:08:09.

don't know what it is. The FBI must surely come under massive pressure.

:08:10.:08:14.

It did its -- it did this against the Justice Department. The

:08:15.:08:21.

difficulty the FBI had was that this information, for what it's worth, it

:08:22.:08:26.

came to them. Were they not to have said something and it worked to have

:08:27.:08:29.

come out later, they would have been accused of a massive cover-up. They

:08:30.:08:34.

are dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. There is still time for

:08:35.:08:39.

another surprise. And early November surprise. Who knows if there might

:08:40.:08:42.

still be something that comes out on Donald Trump? This is the first

:08:43.:08:48.

election where I can remember we have had two October surprises

:08:49.:08:54.

already. There are is stuff about tapes knocking around about Donald

:08:55.:08:58.

Trump saying racist things. The Clintons have got a lot of friends.

:08:59.:09:02.

It would be a big surprise if we did not see anything else in the next

:09:03.:09:04.

few days. Just when you think it could not get

:09:05.:09:10.

more interesting, it has. There has been plenty in the papers lately

:09:11.:09:13.

about the Ukip leadership saying unpleasant things about each other.

:09:14.:09:16.

But what about Mr Farage himself? What's he up to?

:09:17.:09:19.

Well, on BBC Two tonight we may find out the answer.

:09:20.:09:21.

Well, I'm led to believe she's very experienced.

:09:22.:09:28.

But I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.

:09:29.:09:31.

That is, unless, of course, you fancy popping a cheeky zero

:09:32.:09:37.

No, I don't think Strictly Come Dancing is for me.

:09:38.:09:41.

Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just lost your programme one viewer.

:09:42.:09:47.

I might have nothing to do these days but, realistically,

:09:48.:09:55.

Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel

:09:56.:10:12.

Farage gets his life back. A number of runners and riders. Let's come

:10:13.:10:16.

straight down to it. Who would be the next leader of Ukip? Probably

:10:17.:10:21.

Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite. The one who has the backing, not

:10:22.:10:28.

very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a

:10:29.:10:35.

big donor. The best of a rather weak lot. I think Paul Nuttall should

:10:36.:10:42.

squeak through. I interviewed all three of them this week. Mr

:10:43.:10:53.

Cassandra is a lively character and he knows how to make a few

:10:54.:10:57.

headlines. With a bit of money behind him, anything is possible.

:10:58.:11:01.

This is a guy who has been to the States, who has literally studied

:11:02.:11:11.

what Trump has done. Pees on secondment for the time being. The

:11:12.:11:15.

guy who is his line manager is one of Donald Trump's campaign stop He

:11:16.:11:21.

is extraordinarily right-wing. I am told he kept a picture of Enoch

:11:22.:11:26.

Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater is one of his heroes, for example.

:11:27.:11:37.

There are other candidates. I would suggest, put out as a hypothesis,

:11:38.:11:44.

Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst nightmare. They are more vulnerable

:11:45.:11:49.

in the North. Paul Nuttall is from Merseyside, a working-class

:11:50.:11:51.

background, performs well on television. He is a really good

:11:52.:11:56.

interviewee. He is one of the best around in politics at the moment.

:11:57.:12:01.

However, I think whoever gets it has a massive task. The clip of this

:12:02.:12:05.

Nigel Farage satire partly shows why. His dominance was overwhelming.

:12:06.:12:12.

He, in many ways, did a brilliant job at keeping the show on the road.

:12:13.:12:17.

The trouble for all new political parties is keeping it going is

:12:18.:12:22.

tough. A very different party, the SDP, with all those glamorous

:12:23.:12:26.

figures in it, lasted eight years, something like that. I think they

:12:27.:12:30.

are in real trouble at the moment because of the implosion we have

:12:31.:12:33.

been seeing in front of our eyes and the ideal -- ideological splits

:12:34.:12:39.

Whoever gets it will face a tough tussle. All three of the main

:12:40.:12:48.

contenders want to put Nigel Farage in the House of Lords. They were

:12:49.:12:53.

falling over themselves to soak up two farads. That is how you win this

:12:54.:12:56.

election. Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting

:12:57.:13:02.

his money on? He said he supports Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly

:13:03.:13:08.

fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He thinks it is terribly disorganised,

:13:09.:13:11.

dysfunctional and doesn't want a great deal to do with it for the

:13:12.:13:15.

foreseeable future. It is not quite Trump the Clinton

:13:16.:13:19.

but it is interesting. That is it. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow.

:13:20.:13:25.

And all of next week. Jo Coburn will be your next Sunday because I am off

:13:26.:13:30.

to the United States to begin to rehearse presenting the BBC's US

:13:31.:13:35.

election night coverage on the th of November. It will be here on BBC

:13:36.:13:38.

One, BBC world, BBC News Channel and BBC

:13:39.:13:39.

online. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:40.:13:41.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:42.:13:47.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by Iain Duncan Smith, Chi Onwurah and Haras Rafiq of the Quilliam Foundation. The Daily Mail's Isabel Oakeshott, commentator Steve Richards and Tim Shipman of The Sunday Times are on the political panel.


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