20/11/2016 Sunday Politics South West

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.

In the South West: A crisis in social care.

Is the system failing to safeguard residents?

Richmond Park based on the skies? Or is it about a bigger conflict in

Europe? And with me - as always -

and, no, these three aren't doing the Mannequin challenge -

it's our dynamic, demonstrative dazzling political panel -

Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be

tweeting throughout the programme. First this morning -

Theresa May has said "Brexit means Brexit" -

but can the Prime Minister - who was on the Remain side

of argument during the referendum Well, Leave-supporting Tory

MPs are re-launching the "European Research Group" this

morning to keep Mrs May's feet Are you worried that you cannot

trust Theresa May until payment to deliver full Brexit was Magellan

like I totally trust Theresa May, 100% behind her. She has displayed a

massive amount of commitment to making a success of Brexit for the

country. We don't know that yet, because

nothing has happened. Why, then have you formed a pressure group? We

were fed up with the negativity coming out around Brexit. I feel

positive about the opportunities we face, and we are a group to provide

suggestions. Who do you have in mind when you talk about negativity the

Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, for example, from Labour MPs. This

is a pressure group for leaving membership of the single market and

customs union, correct? That is what we are proposing. It has a purpose

other than just to combat negativity. When it comes to

membership of the single market and the customs union, can you tell us

what Government policy is towards both or either? Rightly, the

Government hasn't made the position clear, and I think that is the right

approach, because we don't want to review our negotiating hand. What

we're saying... I'm not asking what you are saying. Can you tell us what

Government policy is towards membership of these institutions?

The Government wants to make sure British businesses have the right to

trade with EU partners, to forge new trade deals with the rest of the

world. We hope to Reza may speak at Mansion house this week. -- we had

Theresa May speak at Mansion house this week. She has been clear,

saying it was not a binary choice. And she's right. Let's run that

tape, because I want to pick up on what she did say. This is what she

had to say about the customs union at Prime Minister's Question Time.

On the whole question of the customs union, trading relationships that we

have with the European Union and other parts of the world once we

have left the European Union, we are preparing carefully for the formal

negotiations. We are preparing carefully for the formal

negotiations. We want to ensure we have the best possible trading deal

with the EU once we have left. Do you know what she means when she

says being in the customs union is not a binary choice? I think she's

right when she says that. At the moment, and you know this, as long

as we are in the customs union, we cannot set our own tariffs or rules,

cannot have a free trade agreement with the US or China. We need to

leave a customs union to do that. Binary means either you are in or

you are out, self which is it? We still want to trade with the EU and

I think we can have a free trade agreement with the EU. That is a

separate matter, and it has to do with the single market. What about

the customs union? We need to leave the customs union. We do it and

properly. That is how to get the most out of this opportunity. Summit

is a binary choice? The Prime Minister is right when she says it's

not a binary choice. Both can't be right. We can leave the customs

union, get their benefits, and have a free trade agreement with zero

tariffs with the EU. So it is a binary choice an either be stale

really. Yellow like I am saying the Prime Minister is right when she

says it is not a binary choice. -- I am saying the Prime Minister is

right. We need clarity. Youth had said -- you have said it is a binary

choice. We need to leave the constraints of the customs union. It

pushes up prices. The EU is not securing the right trade deals, and

if we want to make the most of it, we need to get out there and get

some deals going. Do you accept that if we remain in the customs union,

we cannot do our own free-trade deals? Yellow right 100%. That is

why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do you accept that if we leave the

customs union but stay with substantial access, I don't say

membership, but substantial access to the single market, that goods

going from this country to the single market because we're no

longer in the union will be subject to complicated rules of origin

regulations, which could cost business ?13 billion a year? I would

like to see a free-trade agreement between the UK and the EU. Look at

the Canadian deal. I give you that, but if we're not in the customs

union, things that we bring in on our own tariffs once we've left we

can't just export again willy-nilly to the EU. They will demand to see

rules of origin. Norway has to do that at the moment and it is highly

complicated expensive. I think if we agree a particular arrangement as

part of this agreement with the EU, we can reach an agreement on that

which sets a lower standard, which sets a different level of tariffs,

which protects some of our industries. Let's suppose we have

pretty much free trade with the EU but we are out of the customs union,

and let's suppose that the European Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese

whisky and we decide to have a % tariff - what then happens to the

whisky that comes into Britain and goes on to the EU? The EU will not

let that in. That will be part of the negotiation. I think there is a

huge benefit for external operators. Every bottle of Japanese whisky

they will have to work out the rules of origin. There have been studies

that show there is a potential for 50% increase in global product if we

leave. We're losing the benefits of free trade. I understand, I am

asking for your particular view Thank you for that.

Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could not bring himself to say we would

leave the customs union? It is messy. The reason there is this new

group of Tory MPs signing up to a campaign to make sure we get a

genuine Brexit is because there is this vacuum. It is being filled with

all sorts of briefing from the other side. There is a real risk in the

minds of Brexit supporting MPs that the remaining side are going to try

to hijack the process, not only through the Supreme Court action,

which I think most Brexit MPs seem to accept the appeal will fail, but

further down the line, through amendments to the great repeal bill.

This is a pressure group to try to hold the Prime Minister to account.

There is plenty of pressure on the Prime Minister effectively to stay

in the single market and the customs union, and if you do both of these

things, de facto, you have stayed in the EU. She is in a difficult

position because there is no good faith assumption about what Theresa

May wants because she was a Remainer. There is all this talk

about a transitional arrangement, but she can't sell that as someone

who voted to remain. The way Isabel has characterised it is interesting.

There is a betrayal narrative. Everyone is looking to say that she

has betrayed the true Brexit. Since the Government cannot give a clear

indication of what it once in terms of the customs union, which sets

external tariffs, or the single market, which is the free movement

of people, capital, goods and services, others are filling this

vacuum. Right. The reasons they can't do this are, first, they don't

know if they can get it or not. We saw this with the renegotiation the

last Prime Minister. What are they hoping to get? The world on a stick,

to get cake and eat it. You go into a negotiation saying, let's see what

we can get in total. Are they going to ask the membership of the single

market? Yellow I think they will ask for a free trade agreement involving

everything. You can demand what you want. The question is, do they stand

a cat's chance in hell of getting it? They don't know. Welcome back.

We will be back, believe me. It is 150 day since we found out the UK

had voted to leave the EU, but as we have heard, remain and leave

campaigners continue to battle about what type of relationship we should

have with the EU after exit. Leave campaigners say

that leaving the EU also means quitting

Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

movement of goods, services, capital and people.

They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself

when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The

Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would

have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

It's not the EU which is

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

economy in the world is not going to come to come

to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

Are we going to be like Sudan and North

It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

think he was about axis, he is talking

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

for some business people. But then again for voters

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t

run. There is absolutely

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

us out of our biggest trading partner.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

female Diane James. The European Parliament

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

during a meeting. A few days later he is

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

is they just basically sit there until six months before

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

there is not an adequate flow of communication

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

that is something that Our members are not

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

the future What method would you use

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

in favour of This is such a small aspect

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

details. This is one vote that

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

need to attract more women, more ethnic

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

2020. The other thing your leader has in

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Hello, I'm Lucy Fisher. the Week Ahead.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the

As Trump triumphs in Americ`, comparisons are made with

the vote in St Ives to take back control of their homes.

I think it is a bit of the same thing.

A general feeling that people are making rules for our

community, our people and pdople we know, people who live with us,

making rules that we have nothing to do with.

And for the next 20 minutes I am joined by the Conservative

leader of Teignbridge Distrhct Council, Jeremy Christophers

and the independent leader of Cornwall Council, John Pollard.

Welcome both of you to the programme.

Let's start with Dawlish and the region's main railw`y.

On Thursday, the Transport Secretary said his

number one priority in the south-west was making sure

the line at Dawlish can stand up to the

stormy seas and crumbling cliffs which surround it.

I would like to ask the house today that the

requirement for the next st`ge of the project of a further

?10 million so that we can continue to develop

the programme of dealing with this issue once and for all.

That funding will now be granted and the work

Network Rail has reacted to this by saying it it is good news,

but just a fraction of the 000s of millions

Why announce it at all then, this 10 million?

I don't know why he's announced it at this point in time.

The work should be happening, not just an announcement of the money.

I mean, the Dawlish line went down three years ago.

We were promised at the timd that it will be made

resilient and be made securd and I think that work

should be happening, so we welcome the 10 million,

What is the Government's thinking here?

Because it is clearly not enough to fix the problem, so why

It is to put the proper plan in place to take the

grading for the cliffs back so that there is not

debris falling from the

And to make sure that what happened three years ago does not happen

It is a massive issue nationally, but what are locally,

Dawlish is one of our towns and it washes out to Newton Abbot `nd

everything in that area for people who are travelling on rail locally.

OK, we will watch this with interest as it progresses.

As MPs debated what some called a crisis

Cornish nursing home is at the centre of an undercover

Last week, it was announced at the home would be

closing after secret filming which would be

broadcast on the BBC's Panorama programme tomorrow.

The authorities of course have a duty to

protect residents and questhons are being asked about the strength

of the care regulator amid claims the system is broken.

What exactly went on behind the windows of this St Austdll

care home is causing a lot of heartache and anger.

All I have heard is that they are the sort of

things that nobody would want their relatives to suffer.

It really is a scandal that things have been

I've been speaking to relatives of loved

Ones Here At Clinton House @nd Other Morley Group care homes

They are obviously very worried and have many

They want to know why that after a series of complaints

and bad reports, it took an undercover

and bad reports, it took an undercover expose to lead to the

drastic action that has happened here.

Clinton House is being closdd after

an investigation by Panoram` found evidence of cruelty and neglect

at this and one of the home run by the

The programme, which broadc`sts tomorrow, says staff have

been rushed off their feet, often leaving the privacy and dignity of

Sylvia is one of the residents are yet to be moved

This picture, taken by her daughter this week.

As Christine, her daughter, struggles to find a

new home for her mother, Christine tells me she first raised concerns

about Clinton House back in 201 and a closed for admissions,

Her concerns about standards and staff shortages

The authorities in Cornwall do have to

Because lots of the concerns that are being raised now have bden being

raised in the past three years by relatives,

friends and loyal carers and

nothing, seemingly, has been done to improve things here, or,

I suspect, in other Morley homes and I suspect

It is only six months since Clinton House

was last inspected by the Care Quality Commission.

Despite noting continuing concerns about staffing

and finding a home was not entirely safe,

Clinton House was rated as

requiring improvement and allowed to stay open.

That status - requires improvement - is shared by five of the

Three others have also been under investigation in recent weeks.

Back in 2013, there were urgent inspections here at Saint Tdresa's,

again, amid claims of inadepuate staffing and bad care.

We have worked for six years reports in this

group of care homes, but nothing is actually changing with the

They are not taken the concdrns of people seriously, and

then the families come to us, we report things

It shouldn't take the presstre of Your Voice Matters to make the CQC

act on concerns and I don't see that culture changing.

CQC figures reveal a third of care homes in England are

rated as requiring improvemdnt and Cornwall Council has sahd

because so many homes have this data is, the

rating in itself is not a bhg cause for concern and insist they

took immediate action on Clhnton House when Panorama's safegtarding

This week, MPs debated what Labour says is a

Not investing in social card costs lives and dignity.

How much more time does the Government need to see that not

addressing our current fundhng crisis in social care is severely

affecting lives and crippling one of our public services?

Respectfully I call on the Government to wake up

It is not just about rooting out poor care.

The Government denies it is just a funding problem with Health

Secretary Jeremy Hunt saying the coalition introduced

the toughest system of care home inspection in

Well, in a statement, the c`re home owners the Morley Group

told us their own investigations had resulted in removal of staff and a

Joining us to discuss this is the CQC's deputy chief inspector

for adult social care, Debbie Ivanova.

Before the Panorama expos , you gave Clinton House

In fact, a third of all card homes in England have that

There will be families watching this programme up and down

the region thinking to themselves, my relatives safe inside thdir care

Why should they have faith in your inspections?

Well, we've introduced a colpletely new type of

inspection over the past cotple of years and these are very thorough

and look in detail at the quality of care.

comes from people and every piece of that

others helps us to shape those inspections and really find out what

it is like for people living in those homes.

So why was the care home thdn given the status

requires improvement and not the lowest status, inadequate?

Because the findings we had at that time did

not lead to that rating of inadequate.

We felt that the provider h`d the ability to change

It is a much-needed resource in Cornwall and

It is important that the provider, who was

the absolute responsibility for that care, does improve it.

What is your current assessment of the Morley

Well, we have been at all four of the

Two of them we had already started to inspect before the

Panorama programme gave us the information.

And we had found the standard had deteriorated

significantly, so we are very concerned that the provider has

failed to make the changes that were absolutely needed and the

responsibility for that is firmly with them, so we will now bd looking

at taking our strongest and most forceful action at all of their

We've been speaking to relatives who say

they've been telling you this

It does seem it has taken a Panorama undercover

investigation in order to take action here.

While people are in these c`re homes in a dangerous

No, we have taken action all the way through.

We have taken enforcement action in the form

of warning notices and thosd have been in the public domain.

But now you have closed the care home since

Since then, you have moved from handing

over notices to close in the care home.

We actually have not closed the care home.

The care home has been closdd by the provider and

the local authority removing people from it.

However, what we have to

always think about is the b`lance between people's lives and their

home and the service they are being provided.

It's the provider who was

given every opportunity to hmprove this home and it is so disappointing

to see that when we've gone out this time,

standards have deteriorated so

OK, Debbie, I'm going to brhng in John Pollard here.

What is your reaction to thhs news that the other Morley

Group care homes have now bden downgraded to the status in`dequate?

Well, that's the first I've heard of it, so we need to take action and

It is them I am concerned about, making sure they

are living safely in a home which fulfils their needs.

In fact, it was the council who did make sure the

Absolutely, and we did that as soon as it was deemed inadequate.

We took action and met with our colleagues

in the NHS to make sure we gave alternative provision.

I must say, a council officer at Cornwall Council

told us that because so manx care homes in England have the status

requiring improvement, it actually is a cause for concern.

Well, I think because for concern is probably not the right tdrm.

Debbie has explained by lots of homes have

required improvement and if we get that statement about homes where we

have got residents, then we take action

to support the providers and

It was when they failed to do that in

Clinton House that we took `ction to remove residents.

Jeremy, you actually run a

Is it right that so many care homes are required

I've never been in that sittation, but I think that if my

home was requiring improvemdnt and in this home we have said that back

in 2013, he did require it, you put measures

in place to make sure that

improvement took place as quickly as possible.

We are hearing from residents going back years and years that they have

How long do you give a care home to make those

There are five separate measures that you measured

against and for me, it is the leadership of this group

that seems to be in question and one of them is

So if you are scoring requires improvement in

any one of those measures, then I think six months is lore than

adequate by any measure to make those improvements.

If those improvements have been made in this

case 3-4 years ago, you wouldn't have those residents

needing to be rehoused by the Council, those relatives have a

really arduous job, as you can see, to rehouse their loved ones.

It is a tricky situation that we are now in,

but it could have been dealt with earlier.

It could have been dealt with earlier.

This should really only be a six-month improvement process and

Well, when we rate a home as requiring

improvement, we will go back within a year to see if thex have

In fact, we have been back to these homes over the

past two years, which is under our new measurements, 22 times `t these

How many times do you go back before some kind of

change happens without a Panorama expose?

Not good enough changes if they ve all been downgraded to

inadequate and residents finding alternative accommodation.

Absolutely, those changes wdre not embedded and they were not good

enough, I absolutely agree with you there.

Would you say there needs to

be a change in the safeguarding system?

That perhaps the CQC needs more teeth?

You need to be able to

We do have stronger enforcement powers and use

At this moment in time in the country there are over ` hundred

homes were in the process of cancelling the registrathon on.

We do use that urgent action where we

find that people are not safe and we can't allow them to stay

However, in this instance, the Morley Group were

making some improvements, not enough, and we would go back in and

check that and it would follow through.

Now, what has St Ives got in common with the United States?

Well, this week, the former chair of the

National Trust, Sir Simon Jdnkin, made a link between the recdnt vote

to ban new second homes in St Ives and the election of Donald Trump.

Weather or not it is a revolution, the action

taken in West Cornwall is

With a top price of nearly ?5,0 0 a week, this holiday home

is a beacon of inequality on the Cornish coast.

Completed this year on a plot of land bought

for half a million, it

The people here say they cannot take any more.

The infrastructure at the

Well, there's going to be one, isn't there?

On whether to ban second home owning.

I will probably say I don't want second home owners

In South East Cornwall, thex are planning to do what has been

done in St Ives, where more than 80% of people voted for a ban on but

new second homes and wear when the High Court backed them last

week, they used a phrase we have heard a

It is a great today I think for St Ives and for any

community who wishes to take back control.

Take back control of this

And we will make America great again!

If we vote to Leave, we take back

And yes, we will make America great again.

In London's Evening Standard this week, the

former chair of the National Trust made a link between what has been

happening here in the south,west and what's been happening across the

I think it is a bit of the same thing.

A general feeling that people are making rules for our

community, our people, people we know, people

who live with others, making rules that we had nothing to

People are saying, look, you said in the of St Ives, we

have a localist agenda in Britain now.

He meant we would have decisions to make over these things.

Back in the South East Cornwall Dorothy is part of a

group of volunteers who saved their shop

from closure and part, she

says, of a community that has been left behind.

now in Truro, they don't know this area and they made decisions

Born in Germany, Dorothy knows what it is

like to be an outsider, but she still supports a ban

What message does a second homes ban send to the wider

It is a message of hostilitx, I know that, yes.

I am not against outsiders, I just think there needs

to be a happy medium as to how many so-called

outsiders we have got and

The Conservative MP for this part of the

world says she supports a b`n but the Government does not much like

It says trying to control property ownership will

require intrusive state surveillance and interfere with people's

So the world is taking back control as signified by the boat in St Ives

and this is according to Silon Jenkins, writing in the Evening

I think everybody wants to live in the West Country.

Unfortunately, a lot of people leave it until late in life, so they mop

My view is that everybody in their mid-20s in full-time employlent

should have the opportunity to live in the town or village they grew up

We are a leader in custom and self build housing in mx

constituency and that is how we are planning to get away out of this.

We are building the required number of

for local people and 90% of the housing that has been built

has gone to local people, so I think we are

in quite a good position, but that doesn't stop the h`rd work.

This policy in St Ives could mean that

builders just go elsewhere within Cornwall?

They may go to the beautiful spots where they can see

Should you have brought this policy in across the whole of

I think the point about St Hves is the level of second home

ownership is extremely high and the people there are saxing

quite rightly, I think, that they want to

So if you want to be points of the St Ives

community and go and live there I would caution anybody abott

comparing anything to Donald Trump, to be honest, and I do think that

this is very much about loc`lism and local decision-making, and H just

want to reassure people it is nothing to do with rejecting

We welcome at the second home owners.

Because there is that side of it, isn't

It could be viewed as trying to keep outsiders out?

Yes, and it shouldn't be, because there is

If you talk to people in St Ives who are behind the

referendum and the neighbourhood plan, that certainly was not the

It is localism, protecting their local community...

Well, that, too, and it is very much part of the agenda

Our double devolution in that we are trying to give more

power and responsibility and freedoms to the locality and that is

very much in tune with what we are trying to achieve at Cornwall

Jeremy, the Government's quite concerned about

It believes we are interferhng with free markets, it is not good

Well, the Government's planning policy recently has been

inconsistent and I think as local councils where we know we h`ve

genuine housing need, it has been very difficult to plot

a way through to provide thd housing we need for

Recently, the starter homes policy has mopped up

pretty well all the affordable housing due to be built.

But if you took this to its logical conclusion,

if you brought this in everxwhere, you would have borrowers in London

where apartment blocks can be sold to foreign investors, it cotld

affect the whole economy, couldn't it?

But the piece you are referring to refers to people just buxing

property in London and leaving it empty,

which is an investment, that

And first and foremost, houses are homes, they are

for people to live in, not stand empty.

And the point of St Ives is it is trying

to give local people a fair opportunity

to get into a house in

Now time for our regular round-up of the political

Plans for a new constituencx crossing the Devon and Cornwall

border are defended by the South East Cornwall LP.

It is also on a matter of f`irness and fair

representation for all of our constituents.

The 58-year-old South Dorset MP says prison officers

should not be asked to work until they are 68.

I mean I'm in a reasonably good condition, but in a decade from

now, I am not so sure I would be able to drag someone out of a prison

Councils count the cost of ` spate of parking meter thefts.

?5,000 worth of damage with a very, very small returns for the thief's

North Cornwall's MP reveals he is learning to swim and says he

wants other non-swimmers to do the same.

And a new campaign for the

region's wine to be sold at Westminster.

John, while you are here, wd must ask you about the constituency

spanning parts of Cornwall and Devon.

The South East Cornwall MP says she is.

For many reasons, not least the 43 miles it would extend to.

We are firm in our belief at Cornwall

Council that we need to protect the integrity of Cornwall.

We have one NHS service, one council and

therefore, we want to retain that and the bill but she was spdaking

against merely wanted to ch`nge the percentage where constituencies

Jeremy, very quickly, but with something more

light-hearted, should we sell English wine at council meetings?

I've no experience of wine at council

meetings, that's a thing of the past, really.

It may happen in the big hotse, but it doesn't happen

That is the Sunday Politics here in the

south-west, thanks to my guests, Jeremy and John.

never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we

should spend more time on. Back to you.

What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?

What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy

And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in

Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been

touring the television studios this morning.

Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press

As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only

seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.

So a lot of this will be a repeat of what

I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on

We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might

imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow

hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.

That simply doesn't exist if we're going to

retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets

if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to

We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this

morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things

like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an

infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it

was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is

the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think

there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot

set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do

is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are

-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how

they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about

the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit

until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of

Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how

Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury

comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and

collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the

economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot

say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to

take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the

Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,

and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the

Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and

spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is

a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office

for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions

there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from

Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the

referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a

way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you

were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I

say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.

I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to

build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see

them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would

suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just

managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that

simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.

These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With

income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly

expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of

that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after

pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are

people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the

number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their

pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,

and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just

managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are

talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so

the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple

of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it

will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing

people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,

because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow

Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed

in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is

about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for

governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for

labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need

a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the

deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond

did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given

himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it

will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is

the next political earthquake going to happen?

It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring

Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next

year's French Presidential elections?

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,

are selecting their candidate in the first round of

Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.

Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former

prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not

clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting

race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It

is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all

the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated

by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination

there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In

other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration

and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to

appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third

candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few

days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on

television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all

surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a

British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the

first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.

We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is

fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right

party is likely to be the next president, and who the next

president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit

negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then

after the German elections in October. I would add one more

constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop

Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the

run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done

There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three

centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit

and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it

is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of

marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out

of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does

not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was

suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next

time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the

most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if

you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he

goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen

go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that

a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have

to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do

it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential

Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on

the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of

French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise

the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic

policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French

elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate

are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running

against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist

economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise

the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not

classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.

And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an

effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the

socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We

will see what they come up with this time.

The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,

where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn

But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.