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Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
In the South West: A crisis in social care.
Is the system failing to safeguard residents?
Richmond Park based on the skies? Or is it about a bigger conflict in
Europe? And with me - as always -
and, no, these three aren't doing the Mannequin challenge -
it's our dynamic, demonstrative dazzling political panel -
Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be
tweeting throughout the programme. First this morning -
Theresa May has said "Brexit means Brexit" -
but can the Prime Minister - who was on the Remain side
of argument during the referendum Well, Leave-supporting Tory
MPs are re-launching the "European Research Group" this
morning to keep Mrs May's feet Are you worried that you cannot
trust Theresa May until payment to deliver full Brexit was Magellan
like I totally trust Theresa May, 100% behind her. She has displayed a
massive amount of commitment to making a success of Brexit for the
country. We don't know that yet, because
nothing has happened. Why, then have you formed a pressure group? We
were fed up with the negativity coming out around Brexit. I feel
positive about the opportunities we face, and we are a group to provide
suggestions. Who do you have in mind when you talk about negativity the
Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, for example, from Labour MPs. This
is a pressure group for leaving membership of the single market and
customs union, correct? That is what we are proposing. It has a purpose
other than just to combat negativity. When it comes to
membership of the single market and the customs union, can you tell us
what Government policy is towards both or either? Rightly, the
Government hasn't made the position clear, and I think that is the right
approach, because we don't want to review our negotiating hand. What
we're saying... I'm not asking what you are saying. Can you tell us what
Government policy is towards membership of these institutions?
The Government wants to make sure British businesses have the right to
trade with EU partners, to forge new trade deals with the rest of the
world. We hope to Reza may speak at Mansion house this week. -- we had
Theresa May speak at Mansion house this week. She has been clear,
saying it was not a binary choice. And she's right. Let's run that
tape, because I want to pick up on what she did say. This is what she
had to say about the customs union at Prime Minister's Question Time.
On the whole question of the customs union, trading relationships that we
have with the European Union and other parts of the world once we
have left the European Union, we are preparing carefully for the formal
negotiations. We are preparing carefully for the formal
negotiations. We want to ensure we have the best possible trading deal
with the EU once we have left. Do you know what she means when she
says being in the customs union is not a binary choice? I think she's
right when she says that. At the moment, and you know this, as long
as we are in the customs union, we cannot set our own tariffs or rules,
cannot have a free trade agreement with the US or China. We need to
leave a customs union to do that. Binary means either you are in or
you are out, self which is it? We still want to trade with the EU and
I think we can have a free trade agreement with the EU. That is a
separate matter, and it has to do with the single market. What about
the customs union? We need to leave the customs union. We do it and
properly. That is how to get the most out of this opportunity. Summit
is a binary choice? The Prime Minister is right when she says it's
not a binary choice. Both can't be right. We can leave the customs
union, get their benefits, and have a free trade agreement with zero
tariffs with the EU. So it is a binary choice an either be stale
really. Yellow like I am saying the Prime Minister is right when she
says it is not a binary choice. -- I am saying the Prime Minister is
right. We need clarity. Youth had said -- you have said it is a binary
choice. We need to leave the constraints of the customs union. It
pushes up prices. The EU is not securing the right trade deals, and
if we want to make the most of it, we need to get out there and get
some deals going. Do you accept that if we remain in the customs union,
we cannot do our own free-trade deals? Yellow right 100%. That is
why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do you accept that if we leave the
customs union but stay with substantial access, I don't say
membership, but substantial access to the single market, that goods
going from this country to the single market because we're no
longer in the union will be subject to complicated rules of origin
regulations, which could cost business ?13 billion a year? I would
like to see a free-trade agreement between the UK and the EU. Look at
the Canadian deal. I give you that, but if we're not in the customs
union, things that we bring in on our own tariffs once we've left we
can't just export again willy-nilly to the EU. They will demand to see
rules of origin. Norway has to do that at the moment and it is highly
complicated expensive. I think if we agree a particular arrangement as
part of this agreement with the EU, we can reach an agreement on that
which sets a lower standard, which sets a different level of tariffs,
which protects some of our industries. Let's suppose we have
pretty much free trade with the EU but we are out of the customs union,
and let's suppose that the European Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese
whisky and we decide to have a % tariff - what then happens to the
whisky that comes into Britain and goes on to the EU? The EU will not
let that in. That will be part of the negotiation. I think there is a
huge benefit for external operators. Every bottle of Japanese whisky
they will have to work out the rules of origin. There have been studies
that show there is a potential for 50% increase in global product if we
leave. We're losing the benefits of free trade. I understand, I am
asking for your particular view Thank you for that.
Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could not bring himself to say we would
leave the customs union? It is messy. The reason there is this new
group of Tory MPs signing up to a campaign to make sure we get a
genuine Brexit is because there is this vacuum. It is being filled with
all sorts of briefing from the other side. There is a real risk in the
minds of Brexit supporting MPs that the remaining side are going to try
to hijack the process, not only through the Supreme Court action,
which I think most Brexit MPs seem to accept the appeal will fail, but
further down the line, through amendments to the great repeal bill.
This is a pressure group to try to hold the Prime Minister to account.
There is plenty of pressure on the Prime Minister effectively to stay
in the single market and the customs union, and if you do both of these
things, de facto, you have stayed in the EU. She is in a difficult
position because there is no good faith assumption about what Theresa
May wants because she was a Remainer. There is all this talk
about a transitional arrangement, but she can't sell that as someone
who voted to remain. The way Isabel has characterised it is interesting.
There is a betrayal narrative. Everyone is looking to say that she
has betrayed the true Brexit. Since the Government cannot give a clear
indication of what it once in terms of the customs union, which sets
external tariffs, or the single market, which is the free movement
of people, capital, goods and services, others are filling this
vacuum. Right. The reasons they can't do this are, first, they don't
know if they can get it or not. We saw this with the renegotiation the
last Prime Minister. What are they hoping to get? The world on a stick,
to get cake and eat it. You go into a negotiation saying, let's see what
we can get in total. Are they going to ask the membership of the single
market? Yellow I think they will ask for a free trade agreement involving
everything. You can demand what you want. The question is, do they stand
a cat's chance in hell of getting it? They don't know. Welcome back.
We will be back, believe me. It is 150 day since we found out the UK
had voted to leave the EU, but as we have heard, remain and leave
campaigners continue to battle about what type of relationship we should
have with the EU after exit. Leave campaigners say
that leaving the EU also means quitting
Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
movement of goods, services, capital and people.
They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
"No, we should be outside the Single Market."
And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself
when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The
Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters
They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would
have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full
thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
Only a madman would actually leave the market.
Only a madman would actually leave the market.
It's not the EU which is
a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
I mean, are we really suggesting that the
economy in the world is not going to come to come
to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
Are we going to be like Sudan and North
It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
think he was about axis, he is talking
about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,
the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
it might be initially attractive for some business people.
So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
for some business people. But then again for voters
who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t
run. There is absolutely
nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
of the European Economic Area and we should use our
membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you
understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You
spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
us out of our biggest trading partner.
Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
having their second Watch as the alpha male,
the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
female Diane James. The European Parliament
in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
during a meeting. A few days later he is
out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
application to become I'm actually withdrawing
myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party
I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,
a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
is they just basically sit there until six months before
a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
there is not an adequate flow of communication
up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
any hustings? He left a hustings saying
the contest was an establishment coronation and has
made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
will amongst the offences should be dealt with
decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
that is something that Our members are not
going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
I would have any authority to have the say and determine
the future What method would you use
for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
poll about whether you use the electric chair,
or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
in favour of This is such a small aspect
of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
details. This is one vote that
the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
of the President-elect, a man he has described as
a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
in this leadership contest. There are also elections
to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
need to attract more women, more ethnic
minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I
think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better
communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The
better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
2020. The other thing your leader has in
common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns
with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our
manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
Hello, I'm Lucy Fisher. the Week Ahead.
Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the
As Trump triumphs in Americ`, comparisons are made with
the vote in St Ives to take back control of their homes.
I think it is a bit of the same thing.
A general feeling that people are making rules for our
community, our people and pdople we know, people who live with us,
making rules that we have nothing to do with.
And for the next 20 minutes I am joined by the Conservative
leader of Teignbridge Distrhct Council, Jeremy Christophers
and the independent leader of Cornwall Council, John Pollard.
Welcome both of you to the programme.
Let's start with Dawlish and the region's main railw`y.
On Thursday, the Transport Secretary said his
number one priority in the south-west was making sure
the line at Dawlish can stand up to the
stormy seas and crumbling cliffs which surround it.
I would like to ask the house today that the
requirement for the next st`ge of the project of a further
?10 million so that we can continue to develop
the programme of dealing with this issue once and for all.
That funding will now be granted and the work
Network Rail has reacted to this by saying it it is good news,
but just a fraction of the 000s of millions
Why announce it at all then, this 10 million?
I don't know why he's announced it at this point in time.
The work should be happening, not just an announcement of the money.
I mean, the Dawlish line went down three years ago.
We were promised at the timd that it will be made
resilient and be made securd and I think that work
should be happening, so we welcome the 10 million,
What is the Government's thinking here?
Because it is clearly not enough to fix the problem, so why
It is to put the proper plan in place to take the
grading for the cliffs back so that there is not
debris falling from the
And to make sure that what happened three years ago does not happen
It is a massive issue nationally, but what are locally,
Dawlish is one of our towns and it washes out to Newton Abbot `nd
everything in that area for people who are travelling on rail locally.
OK, we will watch this with interest as it progresses.
As MPs debated what some called a crisis
Cornish nursing home is at the centre of an undercover
Last week, it was announced at the home would be
closing after secret filming which would be
broadcast on the BBC's Panorama programme tomorrow.
The authorities of course have a duty to
protect residents and questhons are being asked about the strength
of the care regulator amid claims the system is broken.
What exactly went on behind the windows of this St Austdll
care home is causing a lot of heartache and anger.
All I have heard is that they are the sort of
things that nobody would want their relatives to suffer.
It really is a scandal that things have been
I've been speaking to relatives of loved
Ones Here At Clinton House @nd Other Morley Group care homes
They are obviously very worried and have many
They want to know why that after a series of complaints
and bad reports, it took an undercover
and bad reports, it took an undercover expose to lead to the
drastic action that has happened here.
Clinton House is being closdd after
an investigation by Panoram` found evidence of cruelty and neglect
at this and one of the home run by the
The programme, which broadc`sts tomorrow, says staff have
been rushed off their feet, often leaving the privacy and dignity of
Sylvia is one of the residents are yet to be moved
This picture, taken by her daughter this week.
As Christine, her daughter, struggles to find a
new home for her mother, Christine tells me she first raised concerns
about Clinton House back in 201 and a closed for admissions,
Her concerns about standards and staff shortages
The authorities in Cornwall do have to
Because lots of the concerns that are being raised now have bden being
raised in the past three years by relatives,
friends and loyal carers and
nothing, seemingly, has been done to improve things here, or,
I suspect, in other Morley homes and I suspect
It is only six months since Clinton House
was last inspected by the Care Quality Commission.
Despite noting continuing concerns about staffing
and finding a home was not entirely safe,
Clinton House was rated as
requiring improvement and allowed to stay open.
That status - requires improvement - is shared by five of the
Three others have also been under investigation in recent weeks.
Back in 2013, there were urgent inspections here at Saint Tdresa's,
again, amid claims of inadepuate staffing and bad care.
We have worked for six years reports in this
group of care homes, but nothing is actually changing with the
They are not taken the concdrns of people seriously, and
then the families come to us, we report things
It shouldn't take the presstre of Your Voice Matters to make the CQC
act on concerns and I don't see that culture changing.
CQC figures reveal a third of care homes in England are
rated as requiring improvemdnt and Cornwall Council has sahd
because so many homes have this data is, the
rating in itself is not a bhg cause for concern and insist they
took immediate action on Clhnton House when Panorama's safegtarding
This week, MPs debated what Labour says is a
Not investing in social card costs lives and dignity.
How much more time does the Government need to see that not
addressing our current fundhng crisis in social care is severely
affecting lives and crippling one of our public services?
Respectfully I call on the Government to wake up
It is not just about rooting out poor care.
The Government denies it is just a funding problem with Health
Secretary Jeremy Hunt saying the coalition introduced
the toughest system of care home inspection in
Well, in a statement, the c`re home owners the Morley Group
told us their own investigations had resulted in removal of staff and a
Joining us to discuss this is the CQC's deputy chief inspector
for adult social care, Debbie Ivanova.
Before the Panorama expos , you gave Clinton House
In fact, a third of all card homes in England have that
There will be families watching this programme up and down
the region thinking to themselves, my relatives safe inside thdir care
Why should they have faith in your inspections?
Well, we've introduced a colpletely new type of
inspection over the past cotple of years and these are very thorough
and look in detail at the quality of care.
comes from people and every piece of that
others helps us to shape those inspections and really find out what
it is like for people living in those homes.
So why was the care home thdn given the status
requires improvement and not the lowest status, inadequate?
Because the findings we had at that time did
not lead to that rating of inadequate.
We felt that the provider h`d the ability to change
It is a much-needed resource in Cornwall and
It is important that the provider, who was
the absolute responsibility for that care, does improve it.
What is your current assessment of the Morley
Well, we have been at all four of the
Two of them we had already started to inspect before the
Panorama programme gave us the information.
And we had found the standard had deteriorated
significantly, so we are very concerned that the provider has
failed to make the changes that were absolutely needed and the
responsibility for that is firmly with them, so we will now bd looking
at taking our strongest and most forceful action at all of their
We've been speaking to relatives who say
they've been telling you this
It does seem it has taken a Panorama undercover
investigation in order to take action here.
While people are in these c`re homes in a dangerous
No, we have taken action all the way through.
We have taken enforcement action in the form
of warning notices and thosd have been in the public domain.
But now you have closed the care home since
Since then, you have moved from handing
over notices to close in the care home.
We actually have not closed the care home.
The care home has been closdd by the provider and
the local authority removing people from it.
However, what we have to
always think about is the b`lance between people's lives and their
home and the service they are being provided.
It's the provider who was
given every opportunity to hmprove this home and it is so disappointing
to see that when we've gone out this time,
standards have deteriorated so
OK, Debbie, I'm going to brhng in John Pollard here.
What is your reaction to thhs news that the other Morley
Group care homes have now bden downgraded to the status in`dequate?
Well, that's the first I've heard of it, so we need to take action and
It is them I am concerned about, making sure they
are living safely in a home which fulfils their needs.
In fact, it was the council who did make sure the
Absolutely, and we did that as soon as it was deemed inadequate.
We took action and met with our colleagues
in the NHS to make sure we gave alternative provision.
I must say, a council officer at Cornwall Council
told us that because so manx care homes in England have the status
requiring improvement, it actually is a cause for concern.
Well, I think because for concern is probably not the right tdrm.
Debbie has explained by lots of homes have
required improvement and if we get that statement about homes where we
have got residents, then we take action
to support the providers and
It was when they failed to do that in
Clinton House that we took `ction to remove residents.
Jeremy, you actually run a
Is it right that so many care homes are required
I've never been in that sittation, but I think that if my
home was requiring improvemdnt and in this home we have said that back
in 2013, he did require it, you put measures
in place to make sure that
improvement took place as quickly as possible.
We are hearing from residents going back years and years that they have
How long do you give a care home to make those
There are five separate measures that you measured
against and for me, it is the leadership of this group
that seems to be in question and one of them is
So if you are scoring requires improvement in
any one of those measures, then I think six months is lore than
adequate by any measure to make those improvements.
If those improvements have been made in this
case 3-4 years ago, you wouldn't have those residents
needing to be rehoused by the Council, those relatives have a
really arduous job, as you can see, to rehouse their loved ones.
It is a tricky situation that we are now in,
but it could have been dealt with earlier.
It could have been dealt with earlier.
This should really only be a six-month improvement process and
Well, when we rate a home as requiring
improvement, we will go back within a year to see if thex have
In fact, we have been back to these homes over the
past two years, which is under our new measurements, 22 times `t these
How many times do you go back before some kind of
change happens without a Panorama expose?
Not good enough changes if they ve all been downgraded to
inadequate and residents finding alternative accommodation.
Absolutely, those changes wdre not embedded and they were not good
enough, I absolutely agree with you there.
Would you say there needs to
be a change in the safeguarding system?
That perhaps the CQC needs more teeth?
You need to be able to
We do have stronger enforcement powers and use
At this moment in time in the country there are over ` hundred
homes were in the process of cancelling the registrathon on.
We do use that urgent action where we
find that people are not safe and we can't allow them to stay
However, in this instance, the Morley Group were
making some improvements, not enough, and we would go back in and
check that and it would follow through.
Now, what has St Ives got in common with the United States?
Well, this week, the former chair of the
National Trust, Sir Simon Jdnkin, made a link between the recdnt vote
to ban new second homes in St Ives and the election of Donald Trump.
Weather or not it is a revolution, the action
taken in West Cornwall is
With a top price of nearly ?5,0 0 a week, this holiday home
is a beacon of inequality on the Cornish coast.
Completed this year on a plot of land bought
for half a million, it
The people here say they cannot take any more.
The infrastructure at the
Well, there's going to be one, isn't there?
On whether to ban second home owning.
I will probably say I don't want second home owners
In South East Cornwall, thex are planning to do what has been
done in St Ives, where more than 80% of people voted for a ban on but
new second homes and wear when the High Court backed them last
week, they used a phrase we have heard a
It is a great today I think for St Ives and for any
community who wishes to take back control.
Take back control of this
And we will make America great again!
If we vote to Leave, we take back
And yes, we will make America great again.
In London's Evening Standard this week, the
former chair of the National Trust made a link between what has been
happening here in the south,west and what's been happening across the
I think it is a bit of the same thing.
A general feeling that people are making rules for our
community, our people, people we know, people
who live with others, making rules that we had nothing to
People are saying, look, you said in the of St Ives, we
have a localist agenda in Britain now.
He meant we would have decisions to make over these things.
Back in the South East Cornwall Dorothy is part of a
group of volunteers who saved their shop
from closure and part, she
says, of a community that has been left behind.
now in Truro, they don't know this area and they made decisions
Born in Germany, Dorothy knows what it is
like to be an outsider, but she still supports a ban
What message does a second homes ban send to the wider
It is a message of hostilitx, I know that, yes.
I am not against outsiders, I just think there needs
to be a happy medium as to how many so-called
outsiders we have got and
The Conservative MP for this part of the
world says she supports a b`n but the Government does not much like
It says trying to control property ownership will
require intrusive state surveillance and interfere with people's
So the world is taking back control as signified by the boat in St Ives
and this is according to Silon Jenkins, writing in the Evening
I think everybody wants to live in the West Country.
Unfortunately, a lot of people leave it until late in life, so they mop
My view is that everybody in their mid-20s in full-time employlent
should have the opportunity to live in the town or village they grew up
We are a leader in custom and self build housing in mx
constituency and that is how we are planning to get away out of this.
We are building the required number of
for local people and 90% of the housing that has been built
has gone to local people, so I think we are
in quite a good position, but that doesn't stop the h`rd work.
This policy in St Ives could mean that
builders just go elsewhere within Cornwall?
They may go to the beautiful spots where they can see
Should you have brought this policy in across the whole of
I think the point about St Hves is the level of second home
ownership is extremely high and the people there are saxing
quite rightly, I think, that they want to
So if you want to be points of the St Ives
community and go and live there I would caution anybody abott
comparing anything to Donald Trump, to be honest, and I do think that
this is very much about loc`lism and local decision-making, and H just
want to reassure people it is nothing to do with rejecting
We welcome at the second home owners.
Because there is that side of it, isn't
It could be viewed as trying to keep outsiders out?
Yes, and it shouldn't be, because there is
If you talk to people in St Ives who are behind the
referendum and the neighbourhood plan, that certainly was not the
It is localism, protecting their local community...
Well, that, too, and it is very much part of the agenda
Our double devolution in that we are trying to give more
power and responsibility and freedoms to the locality and that is
very much in tune with what we are trying to achieve at Cornwall
Jeremy, the Government's quite concerned about
It believes we are interferhng with free markets, it is not good
Well, the Government's planning policy recently has been
inconsistent and I think as local councils where we know we h`ve
genuine housing need, it has been very difficult to plot
a way through to provide thd housing we need for
Recently, the starter homes policy has mopped up
pretty well all the affordable housing due to be built.
But if you took this to its logical conclusion,
if you brought this in everxwhere, you would have borrowers in London
where apartment blocks can be sold to foreign investors, it cotld
affect the whole economy, couldn't it?
But the piece you are referring to refers to people just buxing
property in London and leaving it empty,
which is an investment, that
And first and foremost, houses are homes, they are
for people to live in, not stand empty.
And the point of St Ives is it is trying
to give local people a fair opportunity
to get into a house in
Now time for our regular round-up of the political
Plans for a new constituencx crossing the Devon and Cornwall
border are defended by the South East Cornwall LP.
It is also on a matter of f`irness and fair
representation for all of our constituents.
The 58-year-old South Dorset MP says prison officers
should not be asked to work until they are 68.
I mean I'm in a reasonably good condition, but in a decade from
now, I am not so sure I would be able to drag someone out of a prison
Councils count the cost of ` spate of parking meter thefts.
?5,000 worth of damage with a very, very small returns for the thief's
North Cornwall's MP reveals he is learning to swim and says he
wants other non-swimmers to do the same.
And a new campaign for the
region's wine to be sold at Westminster.
John, while you are here, wd must ask you about the constituency
spanning parts of Cornwall and Devon.
The South East Cornwall MP says she is.
For many reasons, not least the 43 miles it would extend to.
We are firm in our belief at Cornwall
Council that we need to protect the integrity of Cornwall.
We have one NHS service, one council and
therefore, we want to retain that and the bill but she was spdaking
against merely wanted to ch`nge the percentage where constituencies
Jeremy, very quickly, but with something more
light-hearted, should we sell English wine at council meetings?
I've no experience of wine at council
meetings, that's a thing of the past, really.
It may happen in the big hotse, but it doesn't happen
That is the Sunday Politics here in the
south-west, thanks to my guests, Jeremy and John.
never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we
should spend more time on. Back to you.
What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?
What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy
And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
touring the television studios this morning.
Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an
infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions
there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are
people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,
and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given
himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
the next political earthquake going to happen?
It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring
Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
year's French Presidential elections?
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
are selecting their candidate in the first round of
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
are selecting their candidate in the first round of
Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a
British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
after the German elections in October. I would add one more
constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done
There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it
is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on
the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
will see what they come up with this time.
The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.