11/12/2016 Sunday Politics South West


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


A row has broken out between Number Ten and former


Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,


the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.


I feel as though I'm one of the people that


If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,


It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult


for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest


Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.


Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,


but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance


In the south-west, dead and evaded. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie


In the south-west, dead and evaded. The size gets a powerful mayor, will


the North be think of it as an early Christmas


present from us. We guarantee you won't


be disappointed. And speaking of guaranteed


disappointments - I'm joined by three of the busiest little elves


in political journalism. It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee


and Tom Newton Dunn. So, we knew relations


between Theresa May and some of her backbenchers over Europe


weren't exactly a bed of roses. But signs of how fractious things


are getting come courtesy of this morning's Mail on Sunday which has


the details of a series of texts from one of Mrs May's senior


advisers to and concerning the former Cabinet


minister Nicky Morgan. Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing


for a so-called soft Brexit, and has been pressing the PM


to reveal more of her negotiation She's also apparently irked


Downing Street by questioning Mrs May's decision to purchase


and be photographed in a ?995 pair She said she had "never spent that


much money on anything apart Mrs Morgan was due to attend


a meeting at Number 10 this week But that invitation seems to be off,


after a fairly extraordinary argument by text message


with Mrs May's joint chief She texted the MP Alistair Burt,


another of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,


cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation and telling him to not "bring that


woman to Number Ten again". The following day Nicky Morgan


texted Fiona Hill, saying "If you don't like something I have


said or done, please If you don't want my views in future


meetings you need to tell them." Shortly afterwards she received


the reply "Well, he just did. And according to the Mail,


Mrs Morgan, who you'll see in our film shortly,


has now been formally banned So, Tom, much ado about nothing or


telling you about the underlying tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am


allowed to choose both. It says something about British politics


today, that this is the most important thing we can find to talk


about, because the Government are not giving us anything to talk about


cs especially on Brexit because they don't have a plan as we know. There


is is a lot of truth that are being spoken from this row, one is that


Mrs May comes into Downing Street with a lot of baggage including


spectacular fall outs with Cabinet Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan


being one. We heard about the row over banning children from school.


She fell out with Boris Johnson, so, she then enters Number Ten with


history. When you are in Number Ten you start, you cannot be


controversial and my way but the high way, which is why Fiona Hill


kept Theresa May in the Home Office. You need to behave differently in


the top job. It is surprising Nicky Morgan hats taken such a robust


line. She seemed such a gentle soul as a minister. She did, Brexit has


done funny things to people. Everything has been shaken up. It


reveals really how paranoid they are, I mean you cannot have a


situation really in which the, in which you know, Number Ten has got


realise if the Prime Minister's entire stick is her authenticity and


incredible connection, which is genuine, with voters outside the


Metropolitan bubble, when she chooses to wear ?995 leather


trousers you have to anticipate that journalists and MPs are going to


take the mickey, that is how life works, but I think they are trying


to run Number Ten as they ran the Home Office, and you see that in the


rows they have had with Mark Carney and Boris Johnson this week, now you


might be able to run one Government department in that control freakish


way but not Government will hold together for too long, if it is run


in that fashion. By try doing the whole Government like one


department. This is just the start, Polly, we are still several months


away from triggering Article 50. We, The Tory party is split down the


middle, the thing that mattered most to the nation since the last war, it


is not frivolous. It may look as if it is about trousers, it is about


the most serious thing. What was split down the middle? Aren't the


Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used to be the outliers, it is now the


Europhiles, it is not a split down the middle. They won't vote against


Brexit but they will, I think exert the maximum influence they can, to


make sure that it is not a Brexit, a self-harming Brexit, to make sure


that the country understand, when it comes to that point, that there may


be really hard decision to make, do you want a real economic damage to


be done to the country, to your own wallet, in, in exchange for being


able to stop free movement or is that trade off in the end going to


be just too expensive? We have seen polls suggesting people are


beginning to move, and not willing, a poll out now saying people


wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any money at all, for the sake of


stopping immigration. So if itself comes to that trade off, the people


are going to need to be confronted with that choice. The Irony is, I


think the Tories are in the most exceptionally strong position, I


mean what is happening here is that British politics is being realigned


and remade along leave and remain lines, if the Prime Minister's luck


hold, the Tories are looking at being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the


vote with an opposition split between a far left Labour Party and


depleted Liberal Democrats, that sound like a recipe for something


similar to what happened in the 1980s. You are seeing extraordinary


alliances between left and right. The Scottish referendum rebuilt


Scottish politics along the lines of pro independence, anti-independence


and now Brexit maybe doing the same. So, rows within the Conservative


Party over the price of trousers might be new,


but over Europe, not so much. And this week's Commons vote


on when the Government will fire the starting gun on Brexit,


and what it will say about its plans before it does so,


confirmed that instead of the eurosceptics


being the outsiders, it's now the Remainers


who are leading the resistance. While the Prime Minister


was schmoozing in the gold-plated Gulf this week, back home


the Commons was voting on a Labour motion forcing her


to publish a plan for Brexit. Through some parliamentary


jiggery-pokery, the Government basically got its way,


but it did provide a platform for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs


who voted to remain, We are getting somewhat tired,


are we not, of this constant level of abuse, this constant criticism


that we are somehow Remoaners that want to thwart


the will of the people, go back on it and that we don't


accept the result. I don't like the result, and yes,


I do believe the people It's not good enough


that these things are dragged out of the Government


by opposition day motions. I'm pleased that it's happened


but I wish the Government was taking Is Nicky Morgan really


listening to her constituents I think I'm one of the people


who stuck their head above the parapet so if you do that


you're likely to attract attention, you're likely to attract abuse,


but also actually levels of support. I'm having e-mails from around


the country with people saying thank you for what you are doing,


party members around the country saying thank


you for what you are doing and saying, and I and others


will continue to do that. I just think, as a backbench


Member of Parliament, you've got to be there,


particularly when we have a weak opposition, to ask the question that


government needs to be scrutinised on before we embark


on such a huge issue. Nobody comes into politics to become


a thorn in their party leader's side, but at the end of the day it's


such a massive issue that if you don't stand up


for what you believe in, I'm not sure what the point


is of going into politics. That puts her on a collision course


with activists in her local party like Adam Stairs,


a committed leader who accuses Nicky has promised me and the rest


of our Conservative association she will be voting for Article 50


and she will support the Prime Minister's timetable,


and we have just got to trust that and hope that goes ahead,


but there's a lot of people who think she's taking sideswipes


at the Government The Conservatives are very popular,


she wants to be a Conservative MP and we want to see a Conservative


government being I have no idea what she's playing


at, I think she just needs to get on with her job as an MP,


which she does very well, Now let's head to Anna Soubry's


constituency nearby to see how her stance is going down


with the voters. If Anna Soubry doesn't fully


back Brexit, what does Well, she's going to have a little


bit of a problem because the voters, especially in this area,


they voted to come out of the EU so she will definitely


have a little bit of a problem. She should stick for


what she believes in, but I guess from a democratic


perspective she does... She has admitted the fact over


and over again that she wanted to remain, but her views


at the moment, even in her e-mails, depicted the fact she's


anti-Brexit still. Theresa May will host her most


pro-European MPs at Downing Street this week to discuss


the countdown to Brexit. Although now we know not


everyone is invited. And the MP leading the resistance


in the Commons on Wednesday was Ken Clarke, he was the only


Conservative MP who voted against the Government's plan


to trigger Article 50 by the end of March and he joins us


now from Nottingham. Welcome back to the programme Ken


Clarke. Now, tell me this when David Cameron resigned after losing the


referendum, you had to pick a new leader, which candidate did the Tory


Europhiles like you put up to deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or


no Brexit at all? Well, I can't speak for the others but I voted for


Theresa May, I gave a notorious interview, it wasn't meant to be, I


was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but somebody turned a camera on, I


called her a bloody difficult woman which the Tory party probably needs,


compared with Margaret Thatcher and said I was going to vote for her, I


gave a vote for one of the younger ones first, but I told Teresa I


would vote for her, she was the only serious candidate in my view. You


voted for somebody you thought was a difficult woman, she is being


difficult in ways you don't like, your side of the Tory party, you had


your chance to put up somebody more in line with you, instead you shut


up, so, why the complaints about it not going in your direction? I am


not making complaint, it is not Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful


mess, she was on the Remain side, she made a good speech during the


campaign on the referendum, setting out the economic case for being in,


setting out the security case for being in, which was Home Secretary,


she was particularly expert in, it wasn't her fault that not a word it


was reported anywhere, in the national media. Now, my views have


been the same, I am afraid throughout my adult life, for the 50


years I have been in politics, and my views have been the mainstream


policy of the Conservative Party throughout all that time, I don't


expect to have a sudden conversion on the 24th June, and I think what I


owe to my constituency, and to Parliament, is that I exercise my


judgment, I make speeches giving my reasons, I make the best judgment


that I can, of what is the national interest. I understand that. I would


be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of course that is not what I am asking.


How many Conservative MPs do you think you can count on to oppose


this so-called hard Brexit? Is it 40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea,


because Anna, and Nicky, who you have just seen on the video who are


also sticking to their principle, they are only saying what they are


been saying ever since they have been in politics, probably may have


more idea than me. That is three, how many more? I


don't know, we will find out. We are living in a bubble in which the tone


of politics is getting nastier and the reporting is getting sillier, so


it is all about Theresa May's trousers and whether Boris has made


some inappropriate jokes. What we need if we are going to abandon the


basis upon which we made ourselves a leading political power in the world


for the last 40 years and the basis upon which our economy has prospered


because Margaret Thatcher got the others to adopt the single market


and we benefited from that more than any other member state, so now we


need a serious plan, a strategy. What is our relationship going to be


in the modern world? How will our children and grandchildren make the


best union they can? We need Parliament's approval of a White


Paper and then start years of negotiation. This will run and run.


This interview hasn't got time to run and run so let me get another


question in. You seem to be quoted in the mail on Sunday this morning


as saying if the Prime Minister sides too much with the heart Brexit


group, she won't survive, is that your view? Yes because only a


minority of the House of Commons think it is frightfully simple and


you can just leave. The referendum campaign, the only national media


reporting of the issues were completely silly and often quite


dishonest arguments on both sides. Let me just check this, explain to


me the basis... Know, excuse me, I have to interrupt because you said


the Prime Minister won't survive so just explain to our viewers why she


won't survive. She will be in a minority she starts adopting the


views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan Smith. It's clear majority of the


House of Commons doesn't agree with that and it would be pretty


catastrophic if that is what we were going to do when we turn up and


faced 27 of the nation state, and tell them we are pulling out of the


biggest market in the world. How long do you give the Prime Minister


then? If you don't think she will survive by going for a heart Brexit?


I don't think she will go for a heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by


David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you think Liam Fox will determine the


policy of the Cabinet? Liam has always been ferociously against the


European Union although he served in a government that was pro-European


for about two and a half years. Does he not survive either? You're trying


to reduce it to my trying to forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which


I haven't got a clue whether there will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they


may be ministers for the next ten years, I have no idea. Liam and me,


but also Liam and the majority of his Cabinet colleagues don't start


from the same place. The way forward is for them to produce a White Paper


setting out the strategy on which all the Cabinet are agreed. People


should stop leaking the Cabinet papers they are getting, they should


stop leaking against each other, get down and do the work when they have


got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry to interrupt again but we haven't


got much time. We saw in our film that a number of constituency


members in those areas which are strongly Remain MPs like yourself,


in our case in this film it was Nicky Morgan, the constituency party


members are unhappy about this. What's your message to them? Don't


they deserve an MP that reflects their way of thinking? Leavers are


unhappy and Remainers are very grateful. Mine don't go in for


abuse... That's probably because you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I


get more from Remainers. I'm a great fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan,


I don't agree with them on everything, but the views they are


putting forward are the ones they've always held and I think we are doing


the Government to favour by saying what it now depends on is your


success in agreeing a policy and then explaining to the public what


you want to do. I shall be surprised if they manage that by the end of


March, I think it is best to get the policy right first but we shall see.


Have you been invited then, you say you are being helpful, have you been


invited to this meeting in Downing Street on Wednesday for the soft


Brexiteers? No, because I haven't been joining any of these groups.


It's fair to say most of my colleagues know exactly what my


views are. No doubt those that haven't had this kind of discussion


with their colleagues before have been invited. I didn't expect to be


invited. I get on perfectly well with Theresa May but I haven't been


invited, but I don't think there's much significance in that. What do


you think of the way Downing Street has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel


sorry for women in politics. I'm glad to say men in politics don't


have great lead stories about what they are wearing. Apart from my


suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm not a very snappy dresser. It is


tedious in these days that we still have a absurd pop newspaper stories


about what they are wearing. That commenting on the Prime


Minister's trousers, is it really grounds for banishment? No, of


course not. Nikki and Teresa will have serious political discussions


and if they want to have an argument about what they are wearing, their


closest friends will advise them to keep it private. It is absurd. Given


that the party appears to be deciding it has been all -- ordered


to changes policies about Britain's relationship with the world, it


needs to be taken seriously and this Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the


serious discussion starts. Thank you for filling our vacuum this morning


and of course no one would ever criticise how you dress. Of course.


Now, seasoned observers will warn against reading too much


into parliamentary by-elections, but they can provide a vital boost


for a party leader under pressure, or provide damaging ammunition


Following a disappointing result for Labour last week in Richmond,


Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping for an early Christmas


present at this week's contest in Lincolnshire.


In Sleaford and North Hykeham, a constituency that supported Leave


in the EU referendum, there was little Christmas cheer


for Labour as it fell from second in 2015 to fourth place.


That was at least a better performance than in


Remain-supporting Richmond Park, where the party's candiate


lost his deposit after attracting fewer voters than the reported


number of local Labour Party members.


Speaking for the Labour Party this week, MP Vernon Coaker


said their policies on other major issues were "lost to an extent


Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity is holding the party back.


This week three frontbenchers were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy


the party line and vote against a motion to begin


the process of leaving the EU by the end of March.


And a number of Labour MPs we've spoken to since Thursday's vote have


said they fear the party now runs the risk of being squeezed


by the Lib Dems and UKIP, or in the words of one,


"being cannabilised, eaten from both ends".


To compound their troubles, a national poll


released on Friday put Labour at a seven-year low, trailing 17


It's still a season of joy for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters -


they point to a series of victories under his leadership,


including a by-election win in Tooting and the London mayoral


Though neither candidate was a Corbynite.


But there's a distinct lack of goodwill on the party


of his critics - although having failed comprehensively


to challenge him this summer, what they intend to do


This morning Diane Abbott played down the significance of the


results. The reports of the Labour Party's demise are exaggerated, we


are the largest social Democratic party in Europe and the surging


membership is down to the current leadership. We have the right


policies on the NHS, investing in the economy, and as you know the


Tories are fatally split on Europe. And we're joined now


by the former mayor of London Ken Livingstone,


and the former Shadow Ken Livingstone, in the most recent


by-election Labour collapsed from second to fourth place, the one


before that your party lost its deposit. What is the positive gloss


on that? There's nothing new in this, where you have got seats which


are solidly Tory, often voters switched to Lib Dem to kick other


voters out. We have had good swings that indicate a Labour government so


don't pay too much attention. It is like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour


voters switched just to kick the Tories out. Don't read too much into


these results, Labour did win tooting so it is OK. First of all I


don't think it was a problem with the candidates in the by-elections,


they did a really good job locally, but there is an issue with those


residents and their attitudes to the national party, and I just think


that when you have warning bells going off like that, we have to


listen to what people are saying. I think what they are saying is they


want an opposition party to have a plan. So yes we have got to attack


the Conservatives where they are going wrong on the NHS, running


headlong over the cliff for a hard Brexit, but we also need a plan for


what Labour's alternative will be. When do we get that plant?


Effectively you have got it already. John McDonnell has gone on


relentlessly for the need for a massive public investment. For


decades now under Labour and Tory governments we haven't invested in


infrastructure, our roads are a disgrace, a broadband is antique. We


need to be honest about this, if Theresa May can come back and say


I've done a deal, we are leaving the EU, we will control our borders, we


won't have to pay 350 million a year and stay in the single market,


well... But that won't happen. If we are going to stumble along for two


years heading for an economic disaster, that's why only eight MPs


voted to leave, because they knew the harm it would do to their


voters. If you have got a plan, why are things getting worse for you in


the national polls, 17 points behind? If you look back, when I was


leader of Chelsea my poll rating went down... But you have not been


as bad since 1983 when you lost an election by a landslide. Over the


next two years our economy will not grow strongly, it will limp along at


best, as we get closer to Brexit it will get worse. All Labour MPs


should be focusing on the economic alternative because nobody ever wins


an election without a credible economic strategy. So as long as the


country goes to hell in a hand basket, Labour will be fine. That's


not good enough. You're not a commentator any more, you are part


of the leadership of the party. It is to you. I will continue to argue


the case for credibility, particularly in our policies, but


the leadership cannot just sit back and watch this drift. On the Brexit


situation, the Conservative manifesto at the last general


election promised it would be yes to the single market, why aren't we


holding them to account for the broken promise potentially they are


about to do? If I had still been an MP, I would have been voting with


you, rebelling, because we are not going to get any good deal to leave.


Theresa May will stumble on for a couple of years trying to balance...


The party policies were heard from Diane Abbott this morning is to get


the best possible deal to leave. And I will believe it when it happens.


So you don't believe a central part of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy


has accepted the fact people voted to leave. He now said we now need to


get the best possible deal and you don't think it's achievable. I


don't, because why would the other 27 members give us a better deal


staying outside? You've confused me, why are you such a big supporter of


Corbyn with his policy you don't think it's achievable?


Everybody knows we are not going to get a soft exit, so we either have


the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps millions, certainly hundreds of


thousands of jobs, or we have to say we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot


of people have been saying that all Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is


why it is going wrong, I would suggest to you, that actually what


the concentration on is the Tories are unclear about Brexit, they are


in power, that is what matters, a bigger problem for Labour is whether


Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut through or not. I think the YouGov


poll this weekend not only gave us that double punch of a 17 point lead


for the Conservatives but it had a 33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa


May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of the plan, think, has to be to


address this leadership issue, to make sure it is also a party that is


listening to the wider public and not just the small number of members


or the trotsites in Momentum or whoever is the latest Marxist on


the... You The thing that is ox fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour


has quoted bunkum. We have has 18 months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy


in the back and some in the front. The vast majority of Labour MPs have


stopped undermining Jeremy. You weren't doing that well before. Can


you imagine a situation in which you have elected a new leader and the


first year it is all about getting rid of imand undermining him. I


disagree with Tony Blair on lots of policy issue, I didn't run wound


saying this man is not fit to govern. That is because you had no


support for that at the time. The idea people will take lectures from


Ken on divisiveness, that is like takes lectures from Boris Johnson on


diplomacy, you have to make sure, yes, that we find some accommodation


after the leadership election this summer, but the plan is not there


right now, and you and the rest of the leadership has to be held


accountable for delivering that, I want to hear what the plan is. It is


FDR he told us earlier. If you have got now because as we saw in the


Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio at 90%, you can't convince the


public by saying we will throw more money at the problem, the public


want a credible plan, where the sums add up, that you are not making


promises that won't be delivered. They want that plan. We need to


point out our history, when Labour Waugh the election in 45 Government


debt was two times that it was now.. Now.. They generated exports and


within 50 years we virtually paid off that debt. Austerity is not the


way to go. Our economy is a disgrace compared with Germany. I agree. What


we have to start saying, there is decent jobs, where are they going to


be coming from, can we have a society based on fair play and


prosperity for everybody not just the wealthy, that means saying, some


time, that people have to contribute, they have to put in, so


we have to listen to what the public are saying on issues for instance


like immigration, as they said in the Brexit referendum, but make sure


we have our approach set out clearly, so people know there is a


ability to manage, and control these things, not just ignore them. Those


tax dodgers who launder their money through Panamanian banks. If we


crackdown on what might be 150 billion a year of tax evasion and


avoidance. That is a real outlier estimate as you know, way the


highest, you cannot build the FDR programme on tax evasion revenues,


alone, but let me ask you. You can say to Starbucks, if you are not


going to pay tax on your profits we will tax every cup of coffee. Why


don't you nationalise it? I was just checking that would be the policy.


Let me ask you this. By what time do you get, start to get worrieded if


the polls haven't given to turn round? I mean, I think they will


turn round. When do you start to get worried? If they haven't? If in a


year's time it was as bad as this we would be worried. I don't think it


will be. Jeremy and his team will knows can on the economy, and that


is wins every election. Bill Clinton, remember it's the economy


stupid. People know if you are going to spend money they want to see


where it is coming from, otherwise they will think it is their taxes


that will go up and the Conservative, Theresa May, will


scare the British public over plans that are not properly... What do you


do if things haven't got better in 12 months? We lost the leadership


election in the summer but we will hold our leadership to account. What


does that mean? It means asking for the plan, testing what the proposals


are, are they properly credible, do they make sure that they meet the


test the public... You just have to bite the bottom lip now, you


privately, a lot of you think your party is heading for catastrophe. I


don't think it is acceptable that we have this level of performance,


currently, I am sure Ken agrees the opinion polls, and those by


by-election were just not good enough. We have to show leadership,


certainly on Brexit, hold the Government to account. Attack them


for the crisis in the NHS, yes and on the economy, to deliver credible


policy force, example on defending national security and making sure we


stand up for humanitarian intervention. Final point, your


party has lost Scotland. You are now in third place behind the stories --


Tories. I never thought I would be able to say that in a broadcast, if


you lose the north too, you are heading for the smallest


Parliamentary Labour Party since the war, aren't you. But that is our


weakness, we in the 13 years of the last Labour Government neglected


rebuilding our manufacturing in the way the Germans have done. Millions


of people used to have good job, we used to have 8 million jobs in


manufacturing it is down two. It is in the north, that Jeremy's strategy


has the most relevance, of actually getting the investment and


rebuilding. All right. We will see. Come back in 12 months if not before


and we will check it out. It's just gone 11.35,


you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers


in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20


minutes, we'll be talking about Boris Johnson's tour


of the Middle East after straying off message, again,


and the protestors attempting First though, the Sunday


Politics where you are. Unanimous calls this week


for health bosses to be Could Devon be divided in two


by plans for a new super authority? For the next 20 minutes, I am joined


by Labour peer Ann Mallalieu and North Devon's Conservative MP


Peter Heaton-Jones. MPs of all parties finally got


to have their first vote The region's sole Labour MP


Ben Bradshaw was one of just 89 MPs who voted against a government


amendment on when Article 50 I cannot support the government's


Amendment because it is in effect gives a blank cheque for us


to invoke article 50 of us being any the wiser of


the government's intentions today. And all of the signals


from the Prime Minister's speech at her party conference since has


been that the majority of the government wants


and is heading for a hard Brexit, disastrous for jobs and prosperity


in my constituency. A lot of speculation


as to what the Lords might do through the Brexit process


and whether they might Well, I'm a Brexiteer, which is


a little unusual in my party. I'm very worried about the Lords


because the noises in every debate we have recently,


and one as recently as ten days ago, were that there is a large majority


of people who would like to throw It is described as holding


the government to account, it is described as scrutinising,


but the reality is that there are people who simply cannot accept


the view of the electorate, and I would like to see


what I suppose you could call We might not have liked the way


we are now, but now we're here we're going to make a bigger success


as we can of it. And I would like to see


all the parties getting behind supporting getting the best deal


we can, not trying to trap the government up in trying to do


a very difficult negotiation. Have you got any red lines now


in this whole negotiation process, as some people have,


single market, whatever that is? What I want, I suspect similar


to Ann, is to get this done now. We've got to get it moving,


we don't want any more in the House of Commons on Wednesday


for what actually started off as a Labour motion


amended by the government, but that is all complicated


Westminster village type politics. What I want to know is we get on,


we leave the EU, we do it in the best possible way,


and I use every avenue I have got to say let's do it in the best way


for businesses and families in North Relations between council leaders


in Devon arguably hit an all-time low on Friday,


as it emerged a small group of councils were pursuing plans


for a South Devon may. of councils were pursuing plans


for a South Devon mayor. Undermining the devolution bed


for the whole of Devon and Somerset already agreed and submitted


to the government. It coincided with the Local


Government Secretary's first visit to Cornwall,


to discuss its devolution deal, which he previously had been less


than complimentary about. At Cornwall Council,


they are getting ready for Christmas, and a visit


from someone very special. Not Santa, but the Local


Government Secretary. Sajid Javid caused


great excitement at He spent three hours inside,


discussing among other things the government's biggest


gift to councils. The Local Government Secretary


is due to emerge any minute now, and the question is whether he will


emerge buoyant about Cornwall's growth prospects or bruised,


having had to answer some tough It was Mr Javid's first


visit to Cornwall. Two months ago he came to Exeter


and upset Cornwall's councillors, saying they might not get everything


on their devolution wish list. Anyone who wants an ambitious deal,


they are going to have to have a mayor, and frankly


the Cornwall one was Was Cornwall's Council


as unambitious as you had feared? Actually they have some excellent


ideas for future - both council leaders and businesses,


who I've been meeting with today, they've got a devolution


deal that is in place, and today is all about making sure


how do we work together to make the most of it,


how do we create more Are you still sceptical


about whether or not Cornwall has I have never been


sceptical about it. You said on the stage


in Exeter, what was the point They are the only ones who got away


with not having a mayor, but you've got to ask yourself


what is the point of going down this road unless you really


want to make a difference, and if you do, you have


got to have a mayor. What I said is each deal


is different, and Cornwall If you go to Greater Manchester


they have a different type of deal. All of these deals, every one


of them, are bespoke. They should be led from


the bottom-up, local leaders, local businesses coming to central


government and saying, if you gave us powers over this


or that we could make more of it, Cornwall's councillors seem


pleased by the warm words they have been given,


but it is still not clear whether they will get more


power without a mayor. Meanwhile in Devon, councillors


do not yet have a devolution deal. They have submitted a bid that joins


up the wall of Devon and Somerset, They have submitted a bid that joins


up the whole of Devon and Somerset, but the councillors leading it


will not accept a mayor. I spoke to the Minister quite


bluntly, you're talking about us having a mayor,


we have 17 local authorities working The amount of money you're putting


up in front of us is not Give us the powers and we can


get the jobs done. But this week we have learned that


some of those Devon and Somerset councils are prepared


to have a mayor. We understand senior


councillors in Exeter, Torbay and Plymouth,


who were signed up to the original plan, are now working on a separate


devolution bed for South Devon. are now working on a separate


devolution bid for South Devon. What about Devon, they


are working this week on a new devolution bid,


with a mayor. What is your message


to the Conservative councillors I have not seen that bid yet,


but I look forward to receiving it. I wanted to ask about the


inter-council rivalry his preference for a mayor is causing,


but like other special visitors at this time of year,


he does not stick around long. Peter, I would like to cut


to the chase with you, One of your colleagues,


the South Devon MP, said that if this South Devon mayoral proposal


went through, frankly it could be pretty disastrous


for the rest of Devon, This is looking like dogs breakfast,


to be honest with you. All I want for North Devon


is the best possible deal. I want to make sure we do not have


any more decades where we do not get our fair slice of the cake,


which has happened for ages What I want is a deal that says


we get fair share in North Devon, frankly all bits of Devon that


are not Exeter, Plymouth and Torbay, The second thing is I do not think


most people who represent in North Devon cared about all this


going on behind the scenes, they want the rubbish collected


on time, they want to make sure their potholes are filled,


or they get the fear sure their potholes are filled,


or they get the fair All of this hooha behind


the scenes is a distraction. I hope we can come together


but if we cannot, I am going to fight to make sure whatever


is the outcome, North Devon Do you think that joint Devon


and Somerset bid should now accept a mayor because it strikes me,


the government has been very clear that it likes and wants a mayor,


and might it be the case that the rest of Devon


and Somerset keep saying no, but you have people in Plymouth


and Torbay saying we're on message, we are with the government's agenda,


the government might say, Cornwall got devolution without


a mayor, as we heard in your report. There is no question


in the world to which the answer So I am not at all convinced that


another elected politician, call them a mayor or whatever fancy


nameplate you want to have on their desk, I do not know how


that will help me get better roads, better connectivity,


better council services. Labour started the whole


mayoral stuff running. But in London, you know,


very much an urban thing. You're the president


of the Countryside Alliance. Do you think this could work


in places like rural I am very sceptical


about mayors altogether. It seems to me that it is all too


often a job for a politician who has And there seem to be many


candidates along those lines. Boris Johnson, maybe,


maybe the jury are out time that. I can see the government find it


much easier to deal with one person, someone who perhaps speaks


their language, but unless it is somebody of exceptional


ability, I do not think I think the councils


who have very good leaders, very often did a superb job,


I cannot see that unless you have an outstanding and exceptional


figure that a mayor is going to add anything to a local authority's bid


for more money, more jobs, Money is crucial to this,


it is understandable that if money is dangled before local authorities


with some conditions, local authorities will be


tempted to go for it. It sounded like a threat -


if you don't, you will not get it. And I do not understand why


there should be such pressure because it seems to me


that there are not able people queueing up to do these jobs,


whatever the county, and there are many councillors


who know the job better than a mayor On the money front, we're just


fighting for our fair share I am yet to be convinced that we go


for this devolution, It may be from a different pot,


but is that our fair share for areas like mine,


sparsely populated, away from the South Devon urban areas,


that is what I think I want to use my energy


to fight for a fairer deal. Is the risk that all of this


infighting, that one of your colleagues in South Devon


said today, actually makes you all look disorganised


and perhaps a bit ridiculous to the government, which then


will disincline it to do anything? I do not think it is infighting,


I think it is a challenge for all local authorities to make


sure they get the best deal that they possibly can,


that's what I'm doing. It is infighting, isn't it, surely,


this thing we're seeing in South Devon and the rest


of Devon and Somerset? They are fighting the corner,


I'm going to fight mine. Devon County Council voted


unanimously this week for a programme of major changes


to the county's health The reforms driven by massive


financial problems involve There has also been fierce


criticisms about the way Back from visiting time,


Russell is currently a regular at Barnstable's North Devon District


Hospital. His elderly father is there,


having displayed stroke symptoms, and his daughter's planned homebirth


this week ended up happening On both of those occasions,


they would have had to have a trip down to Exeter, which for my father


would have been outside of the hour. For my daughter she was in labour,


touch and go whether she had given birth in the ambulance


on the way down. Seven years ago Russell's own life


was saved in A having had He said his family's


experiences show how having the services nearby and not 45


miles away in Exeter We have the best health


service in the world. And it is systematically being taken


apart, piece by piece. It is just such a shame


that the generations to come will not have that unless we fight


for it now. Russell's not alone


in wanting to fight. Campaigners have been taking


to Devon's streets in recent months, challenging health bosses' talk


of no red lines, amid reviews of maternity, paediatrics


and emergency services in North East And feelings run very


high in South Devon, when people had to be turned away


from meetings to discuss plans As well as one in six beds


in Devon's larger hospitals. On Thursday it was the turn


of Devon's county councillors to send a message to NHS chiefs,


18 months after experts were parachuted in to rescue


struggling health services in the north-east and west


of the county under something called a success regime,


calls here for the process to be paused while the funding


situation is resolved, and calls for clarity


about the Devon-wide five-year sustainability and transformation


plan, or STP, which There is a copy of this STP document


which came out a few months ago which suggested that maternity


services would be taken away from North Devon,


then the latest version of the STP does not seem to


mention these things. There was uproar when we saw that,


and how we expect any member of the public to engage


in a sensible consultation for the future when we eventually


get told what the proposals are, The deficit facing Devon's health


services is claimed to be ?557 million by 2020,


if things do not change. At Westminster this week one Devon


MP says the plans to bring health and social care together will only


work if there is more We need to do it in a sensible


timescale, having thought about what the options really are,


rather than forcing this through by 2020, 2021,


and we need some proper transition funding because if you think


about it, while we all agree we can do this more efficiently,


indeed the Kings fund has said that clearly,


we cannot just cut things without looking at how do we then


enable the new services No signs of any respite


for our region's under The Royal Cornwall Hospitals Trust


declared itself on the highest alert possible, with increasing pressure


on A, clinicians finding let difficult to find beds


for new admissions and a lack We're joined by Angela Peder,


the chief executive To begin with, just to be clear,


there was a suggestion in the report that there may be some confusion


as to what exactly is being proposed, particularly


with reference to North Devon, as we have Peter with us,


what cuts are being proposed? The NHS budget has not been cut,


what we have not been The proposals we are making that


have been in the public domain now since February are around reducing


the number of Community Hospital beds we are consulting on,


and I have launched a series of reviews in respect of A


services, maternity services and stroke services across Devon,


and we will look at services in North Devon and everywhere else


in Devon and make proposals Effectively, services


like a maternity unit could go, We will review all services,


there are no proposals at all, but we know there are a number


of services where we do not currently meet national standards,


and if we look forward we will be neither clinically nor


financially sustainable, so we have got to plan


for the future, think what might happen in two, three,


five years' time and make sure we have sustainable services that


are accessible for populations. This seems to be the message


from Devon County Council, there should be pause


and more reflection. We have to make progress in terms


of the changes that we need to make. Some services are very vulnerable,


so ENT services in North Devon had to close at very short notice


because somebody left and they had to be transferred without a plan


for that to take place. We have a responsibility to make


sure for the public call We cannot just wait for something


to fall over and say, why did we not So we have to have those discussions


upfront, in an open way, And it is challenging and difficult,


but they are the right We have seen a lot of


people on the streets You have been lobbying


strongly on this. Does this make you wonder slightly


whether people are getting worried I met Angela on a couple


of occasions, she has come to Barnstable on my invitation,


and she is coming in the New Year to go on a tour of some of the more


geographically isolated areas of North Devon, and this


is the whole point of It takes 3.5 hours if you live


on parts of the north coast of the constituency to get to Exeter


or to Plymouth, and that is not There are no proposals and I want


to make sure it gets no further. I made it quite clear


to Angela I understand the need for the process,


Devon County Council have come I do not think a pause


is going to be possible because the sustainability


and transformation plans are happening across the NHS,


across all 43 regions of England. What I am saying is the process


needs to be undertaken in such a way that we make sure the unique


geographical challenges that we have into account, that should be


the first thing on the spreadsheet, if you like, we should not just be


looking at money, we should be looking at care for


people in North Devon. I cannot see a way to deliver good


clinical care by cutting acute I have had this conversation


with Peter, and he knows I have argued nationally in terms


of the remoteness of North Devon. But we have to have services


that are sustainable, and Peter wants high-quality


services for his But we will have to look


at what needs to change, how do we work in a very different


way, but that is why we need We know North Devon was designated


as a trauma unit, even though it does not meet all of the standards


because of the rurality OK, the rurality is something


you're interested in. I suspect you'd possibly


be within the remit Slightly over the border


in Somerset, but I am indeed, obviously very concerned that


if somebody has an accident you want to get them


to a hospital quickly. But I think all political parties


really need to change their approach The National Health service


cannot go on as it is. Somebody said it is the best


in the world, it is not any longer because we cannot fund


what we are trying All parties at some point have


got to have the courage to stand up and say,


this has got to be done cross-party, we have got to look


at what the National Health service service can provide,


how it is to be funded, and we're going to have to make changes,


and some of those will come we do not want to keep people


in hospital more than a moment We can do much more on day surgery,


we can do much more on home visits, as I know Angela was saying


because we talked about it earlier. So there has to be a proper look,


which is not just driven Time for our regular round-up


of the political week in 60 seconds. Sixth formers in Cornwall are told


they could lose their council Every time it is those


from low-income backgrounds in rural communities


who are already struggling. The floods minister says


she is confident work to stop the main rail line at Exeter


being washed away will make a real difference,


and will be completed on time. The real meat of the scheme will be


delivered over the next two years, and options are being finalised


in order to make sure that we see Householders in a block of flats


in Exmouth are asked not to put holly wreaths on the door this


Christmas because the council says No such concern surrounding


the refund Christmas tree Both of which this year come


from a farm on Dartmouth. Are you all looking


forward to Christmas? Are you all looking


forward to Christmas?! Peter, we have now got


all the reports and the expert opinion in on what needs to be done


to improve our beleaguered Still no firm ideas as to what and


when the government will act. The very day that the rail line


was closed again at Cowley Bridge, to lobby for investment in our vital


North Devon line between Exeter About two weeks before


that I met the floods minister, who you saw there,


to that North Devon is especially


vulnerable to flooding. We are getting some movement,


working as a cabal of Devon MPs. And, as always, having


you on as the president of the Countryside Alliance,


have you any sense as to where the government is in moving


towards its long-standing commitment to having a free vote on repealing


the ban hunting with dogs? The government is committed


to removing bad law. It has been for a long time,


but we haven't seen any action. Unfortunately they were stopped


from making some seriously important changes by the Scots,


who decided to intervene in a matter As long as there is a substantial


number of Scottish MPs and they are allowed to vote


on purely English issues, I do not know when the election


is going to come - Peter may - but it might be a bit sooner


than some of us think, and that still the biggest factor. We are


running out of time. Now, Foreign Secretary


Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -


yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia


of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"


in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention


of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime


minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon


was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,


the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply


we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,


and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over


the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing


in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people


to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way


it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left


people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia


and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been


in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,


so how's he been received? Our security correspondent


Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson


was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time


since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary


visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of


it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a


tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I


have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss


about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,


I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage


limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of


smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they


are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten


and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is


in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few


minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting


the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him


according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their


security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they


are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that


has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris


Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's


supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have


had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr


Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is


in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words


Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running


up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by


some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the


gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic


mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will


reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in


building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities


that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15


hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven


warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain


withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and


off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.


In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,


but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big


emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties


with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,


I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a


large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with


Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the


conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you


very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr


Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there


has just given us a really important development, or explained what the


British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big


time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is


fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this


is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's


role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the


Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in


a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about


it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason


that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are


pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level


power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.


What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big


story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we


are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,


most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights


country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,


unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is


the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty


unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits


open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will


go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be


involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe


and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our


knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever


they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that


is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are


the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are


leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am


trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got


yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of


Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word


like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?


I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back


in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,


the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in


the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S


one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in


the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because


it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that


these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what


FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has


been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't


have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it


needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be


turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and


the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.


You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the


Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that


the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a


speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.


Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?


Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then


Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a


distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be


able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do


something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather


than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in


general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning


what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was


interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had


they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other


than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics


which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the


British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the


Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the


things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is


happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry


watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last


week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the


west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.


And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily


Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If


and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are


talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than


anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We


will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I


understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from


analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it


is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator


of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in


reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far


you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty


much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and


the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the


press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is


behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.


He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much


of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is


time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the


cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,


you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree


at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want


to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a


reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,


that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.


I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily


Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.


and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.


Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


# We're going to have a party tonight


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