11/12/2016 Sunday Politics South West


11/12/2016

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

:00:41.:00:43.

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

:00:44.:00:46.

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

:00:47.:00:50.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

:00:51.:00:53.

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

:00:54.:00:57.

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

:00:58.:01:08.

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

:01:09.:01:11.

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

:01:12.:01:15.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

:01:16.:01:17.

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

:01:18.:01:18.

In the south-west, dead and evaded. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

:01:19.:01:30.

In the south-west, dead and evaded. The size gets a powerful mayor, will

:01:31.:01:33.

the North be think of it as an early Christmas

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present from us. We guarantee you won't

:01:49.:01:51.

be disappointed. And speaking of guaranteed

:01:52.:01:53.

disappointments - I'm joined by three of the busiest little elves

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in political journalism. It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee

:01:56.:01:57.

and Tom Newton Dunn. So, we knew relations

:01:58.:01:59.

between Theresa May and some of her backbenchers over Europe

:02:00.:02:06.

weren't exactly a bed of roses. But signs of how fractious things

:02:07.:02:12.

are getting come courtesy of this morning's Mail on Sunday which has

:02:13.:02:18.

the details of a series of texts from one of Mrs May's senior

:02:19.:02:21.

advisers to and concerning the former Cabinet

:02:22.:02:24.

minister Nicky Morgan. Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing

:02:25.:02:29.

for a so-called soft Brexit, and has been pressing the PM

:02:30.:02:33.

to reveal more of her negotiation She's also apparently irked

:02:34.:02:36.

Downing Street by questioning Mrs May's decision to purchase

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and be photographed in a ?995 pair She said she had "never spent that

:02:44.:02:50.

much money on anything apart Mrs Morgan was due to attend

:02:51.:02:55.

a meeting at Number 10 this week But that invitation seems to be off,

:02:56.:03:05.

after a fairly extraordinary argument by text message

:03:06.:03:09.

with Mrs May's joint chief She texted the MP Alistair Burt,

:03:10.:03:12.

another of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

:03:13.:03:21.

cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation and telling him to not "bring that

:03:22.:03:28.

woman to Number Ten again". The following day Nicky Morgan

:03:29.:03:33.

texted Fiona Hill, saying "If you don't like something I have

:03:34.:03:35.

said or done, please If you don't want my views in future

:03:36.:03:37.

meetings you need to tell them." Shortly afterwards she received

:03:38.:03:51.

the reply "Well, he just did. And according to the Mail,

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Mrs Morgan, who you'll see in our film shortly,

:03:57.:04:01.

has now been formally banned So, Tom, much ado about nothing or

:04:02.:04:16.

telling you about the underlying tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am

:04:17.:04:21.

allowed to choose both. It says something about British politics

:04:22.:04:24.

today, that this is the most important thing we can find to talk

:04:25.:04:28.

about, because the Government are not giving us anything to talk about

:04:29.:04:31.

cs especially on Brexit because they don't have a plan as we know. There

:04:32.:04:35.

is is a lot of truth that are being spoken from this row, one is that

:04:36.:04:40.

Mrs May comes into Downing Street with a lot of baggage including

:04:41.:04:44.

spectacular fall outs with Cabinet Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan

:04:45.:04:52.

being one. We heard about the row over banning children from school.

:04:53.:04:57.

She fell out with Boris Johnson, so, she then enters Number Ten with

:04:58.:05:03.

history. When you are in Number Ten you start, you cannot be

:05:04.:05:09.

controversial and my way but the high way, which is why Fiona Hill

:05:10.:05:16.

kept Theresa May in the Home Office. You need to behave differently in

:05:17.:05:21.

the top job. It is surprising Nicky Morgan hats taken such a robust

:05:22.:05:26.

line. She seemed such a gentle soul as a minister. She did, Brexit has

:05:27.:05:31.

done funny things to people. Everything has been shaken up. It

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reveals really how paranoid they are, I mean you cannot have a

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situation really in which the, in which you know, Number Ten has got

:05:42.:05:47.

realise if the Prime Minister's entire stick is her authenticity and

:05:48.:05:53.

incredible connection, which is genuine, with voters outside the

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Metropolitan bubble, when she chooses to wear ?995 leather

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trousers you have to anticipate that journalists and MPs are going to

:06:02.:06:05.

take the mickey, that is how life works, but I think they are trying

:06:06.:06:09.

to run Number Ten as they ran the Home Office, and you see that in the

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rows they have had with Mark Carney and Boris Johnson this week, now you

:06:14.:06:19.

might be able to run one Government department in that control freakish

:06:20.:06:23.

way but not Government will hold together for too long, if it is run

:06:24.:06:27.

in that fashion. By try doing the whole Government like one

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department. This is just the start, Polly, we are still several months

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away from triggering Article 50. We, The Tory party is split down the

:06:38.:06:41.

middle, the thing that mattered most to the nation since the last war, it

:06:42.:06:46.

is not frivolous. It may look as if it is about trousers, it is about

:06:47.:06:51.

the most serious thing. What was split down the middle? Aren't the

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Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used to be the outliers, it is now the

:06:58.:07:02.

Europhiles, it is not a split down the middle. They won't vote against

:07:03.:07:06.

Brexit but they will, I think exert the maximum influence they can, to

:07:07.:07:11.

make sure that it is not a Brexit, a self-harming Brexit, to make sure

:07:12.:07:14.

that the country understand, when it comes to that point, that there may

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be really hard decision to make, do you want a real economic damage to

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be done to the country, to your own wallet, in, in exchange for being

:07:26.:07:29.

able to stop free movement or is that trade off in the end going to

:07:30.:07:33.

be just too expensive? We have seen polls suggesting people are

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beginning to move, and not willing, a poll out now saying people

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wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any money at all, for the sake of

:07:44.:07:47.

stopping immigration. So if itself comes to that trade off, the people

:07:48.:07:50.

are going to need to be confronted with that choice. The Irony is, I

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think the Tories are in the most exceptionally strong position, I

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mean what is happening here is that British politics is being realigned

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and remade along leave and remain lines, if the Prime Minister's luck

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hold, the Tories are looking at being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the

:08:15.:08:19.

vote with an opposition split between a far left Labour Party and

:08:20.:08:22.

depleted Liberal Democrats, that sound like a recipe for something

:08:23.:08:26.

similar to what happened in the 1980s. You are seeing extraordinary

:08:27.:08:33.

alliances between left and right. The Scottish referendum rebuilt

:08:34.:08:38.

Scottish politics along the lines of pro independence, anti-independence

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and now Brexit maybe doing the same. So, rows within the Conservative

:08:40.:08:44.

Party over the price of trousers might be new,

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but over Europe, not so much. And this week's Commons vote

:08:47.:08:49.

on when the Government will fire the starting gun on Brexit,

:08:50.:08:51.

and what it will say about its plans before it does so,

:08:52.:08:54.

confirmed that instead of the eurosceptics

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being the outsiders, it's now the Remainers

:08:57.:08:58.

who are leading the resistance. While the Prime Minister

:08:59.:09:00.

was schmoozing in the gold-plated Gulf this week, back home

:09:01.:09:09.

the Commons was voting on a Labour motion forcing her

:09:10.:09:12.

to publish a plan for Brexit. Through some parliamentary

:09:13.:09:15.

jiggery-pokery, the Government basically got its way,

:09:16.:09:16.

but it did provide a platform for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs

:09:17.:09:19.

who voted to remain, We are getting somewhat tired,

:09:20.:09:24.

are we not, of this constant level of abuse, this constant criticism

:09:25.:09:33.

that we are somehow Remoaners that want to thwart

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the will of the people, go back on it and that we don't

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accept the result. I don't like the result, and yes,

:09:40.:09:44.

I do believe the people It's not good enough

:09:45.:09:49.

that these things are dragged out of the Government

:09:50.:09:52.

by opposition day motions. I'm pleased that it's happened

:09:53.:09:54.

but I wish the Government was taking Is Nicky Morgan really

:09:55.:09:57.

listening to her constituents I think I'm one of the people

:09:58.:10:01.

who stuck their head above the parapet so if you do that

:10:02.:10:09.

you're likely to attract attention, you're likely to attract abuse,

:10:10.:10:13.

but also actually levels of support. I'm having e-mails from around

:10:14.:10:15.

the country with people saying thank you for what you are doing,

:10:16.:10:18.

party members around the country saying thank

:10:19.:10:20.

you for what you are doing and saying, and I and others

:10:21.:10:22.

will continue to do that. I just think, as a backbench

:10:23.:10:26.

Member of Parliament, you've got to be there,

:10:27.:10:29.

particularly when we have a weak opposition, to ask the question that

:10:30.:10:31.

government needs to be scrutinised on before we embark

:10:32.:10:34.

on such a huge issue. Nobody comes into politics to become

:10:35.:10:41.

a thorn in their party leader's side, but at the end of the day it's

:10:42.:10:44.

such a massive issue that if you don't stand up

:10:45.:10:47.

for what you believe in, I'm not sure what the point

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is of going into politics. That puts her on a collision course

:10:51.:10:56.

with activists in her local party like Adam Stairs,

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a committed leader who accuses Nicky has promised me and the rest

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of our Conservative association she will be voting for Article 50

:11:02.:11:06.

and she will support the Prime Minister's timetable,

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and we have just got to trust that and hope that goes ahead,

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but there's a lot of people who think she's taking sideswipes

:11:13.:11:14.

at the Government The Conservatives are very popular,

:11:15.:11:16.

she wants to be a Conservative MP and we want to see a Conservative

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government being I have no idea what she's playing

:11:21.:11:22.

at, I think she just needs to get on with her job as an MP,

:11:23.:11:30.

which she does very well, Now let's head to Anna Soubry's

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constituency nearby to see how her stance is going down

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with the voters. If Anna Soubry doesn't fully

:11:38.:11:39.

back Brexit, what does Well, she's going to have a little

:11:40.:11:41.

bit of a problem because the voters, especially in this area,

:11:42.:11:46.

they voted to come out of the EU so she will definitely

:11:47.:11:49.

have a little bit of a problem. She should stick for

:11:50.:11:52.

what she believes in, but I guess from a democratic

:11:53.:11:54.

perspective she does... She has admitted the fact over

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and over again that she wanted to remain, but her views

:11:57.:12:12.

at the moment, even in her e-mails, depicted the fact she's

:12:13.:12:15.

anti-Brexit still. Theresa May will host her most

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pro-European MPs at Downing Street this week to discuss

:12:18.:12:22.

the countdown to Brexit. Although now we know not

:12:23.:12:24.

everyone is invited. And the MP leading the resistance

:12:25.:12:33.

in the Commons on Wednesday was Ken Clarke, he was the only

:12:34.:12:39.

Conservative MP who voted against the Government's plan

:12:40.:12:41.

to trigger Article 50 by the end of March and he joins us

:12:42.:12:44.

now from Nottingham. Welcome back to the programme Ken

:12:45.:12:51.

Clarke. Now, tell me this when David Cameron resigned after losing the

:12:52.:12:56.

referendum, you had to pick a new leader, which candidate did the Tory

:12:57.:13:01.

Europhiles like you put up to deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or

:13:02.:13:04.

no Brexit at all? Well, I can't speak for the others but I voted for

:13:05.:13:11.

Theresa May, I gave a notorious interview, it wasn't meant to be, I

:13:12.:13:16.

was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but somebody turned a camera on, I

:13:17.:13:21.

called her a bloody difficult woman which the Tory party probably needs,

:13:22.:13:24.

compared with Margaret Thatcher and said I was going to vote for her, I

:13:25.:13:29.

gave a vote for one of the younger ones first, but I told Teresa I

:13:30.:13:34.

would vote for her, she was the only serious candidate in my view. You

:13:35.:13:39.

voted for somebody you thought was a difficult woman, she is being

:13:40.:13:41.

difficult in ways you don't like, your side of the Tory party, you had

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your chance to put up somebody more in line with you, instead you shut

:13:47.:13:52.

up, so, why the complaints about it not going in your direction? I am

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not making complaint, it is not Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful

:13:57.:14:00.

mess, she was on the Remain side, she made a good speech during the

:14:01.:14:03.

campaign on the referendum, setting out the economic case for being in,

:14:04.:14:07.

setting out the security case for being in, which was Home Secretary,

:14:08.:14:11.

she was particularly expert in, it wasn't her fault that not a word it

:14:12.:14:15.

was reported anywhere, in the national media. Now, my views have

:14:16.:14:19.

been the same, I am afraid throughout my adult life, for the 50

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years I have been in politics, and my views have been the mainstream

:14:24.:14:28.

policy of the Conservative Party throughout all that time, I don't

:14:29.:14:33.

expect to have a sudden conversion on the 24th June, and I think what I

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owe to my constituency, and to Parliament, is that I exercise my

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judgment, I make speeches giving my reasons, I make the best judgment

:14:42.:14:46.

that I can, of what is the national interest. I understand that. I would

:14:47.:14:51.

be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of course that is not what I am asking.

:14:52.:14:57.

How many Conservative MPs do you think you can count on to oppose

:14:58.:15:04.

this so-called hard Brexit? Is it 40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea,

:15:05.:15:09.

because Anna, and Nicky, who you have just seen on the video who are

:15:10.:15:12.

also sticking to their principle, they are only saying what they are

:15:13.:15:16.

been saying ever since they have been in politics, probably may have

:15:17.:15:18.

more idea than me. That is three, how many more? I

:15:19.:15:35.

don't know, we will find out. We are living in a bubble in which the tone

:15:36.:15:40.

of politics is getting nastier and the reporting is getting sillier, so

:15:41.:15:45.

it is all about Theresa May's trousers and whether Boris has made

:15:46.:15:49.

some inappropriate jokes. What we need if we are going to abandon the

:15:50.:15:53.

basis upon which we made ourselves a leading political power in the world

:15:54.:15:57.

for the last 40 years and the basis upon which our economy has prospered

:15:58.:16:01.

because Margaret Thatcher got the others to adopt the single market

:16:02.:16:05.

and we benefited from that more than any other member state, so now we

:16:06.:16:11.

need a serious plan, a strategy. What is our relationship going to be

:16:12.:16:16.

in the modern world? How will our children and grandchildren make the

:16:17.:16:26.

best union they can? We need Parliament's approval of a White

:16:27.:16:30.

Paper and then start years of negotiation. This will run and run.

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This interview hasn't got time to run and run so let me get another

:16:36.:16:39.

question in. You seem to be quoted in the mail on Sunday this morning

:16:40.:16:44.

as saying if the Prime Minister sides too much with the heart Brexit

:16:45.:16:50.

group, she won't survive, is that your view? Yes because only a

:16:51.:16:53.

minority of the House of Commons think it is frightfully simple and

:16:54.:16:58.

you can just leave. The referendum campaign, the only national media

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reporting of the issues were completely silly and often quite

:17:04.:17:08.

dishonest arguments on both sides. Let me just check this, explain to

:17:09.:17:14.

me the basis... Know, excuse me, I have to interrupt because you said

:17:15.:17:17.

the Prime Minister won't survive so just explain to our viewers why she

:17:18.:17:22.

won't survive. She will be in a minority she starts adopting the

:17:23.:17:27.

views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan Smith. It's clear majority of the

:17:28.:17:30.

House of Commons doesn't agree with that and it would be pretty

:17:31.:17:34.

catastrophic if that is what we were going to do when we turn up and

:17:35.:17:40.

faced 27 of the nation state, and tell them we are pulling out of the

:17:41.:17:45.

biggest market in the world. How long do you give the Prime Minister

:17:46.:17:55.

then? If you don't think she will survive by going for a heart Brexit?

:17:56.:18:02.

I don't think she will go for a heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by

:18:03.:18:08.

David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you think Liam Fox will determine the

:18:09.:18:16.

policy of the Cabinet? Liam has always been ferociously against the

:18:17.:18:19.

European Union although he served in a government that was pro-European

:18:20.:18:24.

for about two and a half years. Does he not survive either? You're trying

:18:25.:18:31.

to reduce it to my trying to forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which

:18:32.:18:34.

I haven't got a clue whether there will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they

:18:35.:18:39.

may be ministers for the next ten years, I have no idea. Liam and me,

:18:40.:18:47.

but also Liam and the majority of his Cabinet colleagues don't start

:18:48.:18:50.

from the same place. The way forward is for them to produce a White Paper

:18:51.:18:55.

setting out the strategy on which all the Cabinet are agreed. People

:18:56.:18:59.

should stop leaking the Cabinet papers they are getting, they should

:19:00.:19:04.

stop leaking against each other, get down and do the work when they have

:19:05.:19:11.

got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry to interrupt again but we haven't

:19:12.:19:17.

got much time. We saw in our film that a number of constituency

:19:18.:19:25.

members in those areas which are strongly Remain MPs like yourself,

:19:26.:19:29.

in our case in this film it was Nicky Morgan, the constituency party

:19:30.:19:34.

members are unhappy about this. What's your message to them? Don't

:19:35.:19:38.

they deserve an MP that reflects their way of thinking? Leavers are

:19:39.:19:44.

unhappy and Remainers are very grateful. Mine don't go in for

:19:45.:19:54.

abuse... That's probably because you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I

:19:55.:19:59.

get more from Remainers. I'm a great fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan,

:20:00.:20:03.

I don't agree with them on everything, but the views they are

:20:04.:20:07.

putting forward are the ones they've always held and I think we are doing

:20:08.:20:11.

the Government to favour by saying what it now depends on is your

:20:12.:20:16.

success in agreeing a policy and then explaining to the public what

:20:17.:20:23.

you want to do. I shall be surprised if they manage that by the end of

:20:24.:20:27.

March, I think it is best to get the policy right first but we shall see.

:20:28.:20:35.

Have you been invited then, you say you are being helpful, have you been

:20:36.:20:39.

invited to this meeting in Downing Street on Wednesday for the soft

:20:40.:20:45.

Brexiteers? No, because I haven't been joining any of these groups.

:20:46.:20:49.

It's fair to say most of my colleagues know exactly what my

:20:50.:20:56.

views are. No doubt those that haven't had this kind of discussion

:20:57.:20:59.

with their colleagues before have been invited. I didn't expect to be

:21:00.:21:06.

invited. I get on perfectly well with Theresa May but I haven't been

:21:07.:21:10.

invited, but I don't think there's much significance in that. What do

:21:11.:21:15.

you think of the way Downing Street has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel

:21:16.:21:19.

sorry for women in politics. I'm glad to say men in politics don't

:21:20.:21:25.

have great lead stories about what they are wearing. Apart from my

:21:26.:21:29.

suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm not a very snappy dresser. It is

:21:30.:21:34.

tedious in these days that we still have a absurd pop newspaper stories

:21:35.:21:37.

about what they are wearing. That commenting on the Prime

:21:38.:21:54.

Minister's trousers, is it really grounds for banishment? No, of

:21:55.:22:01.

course not. Nikki and Teresa will have serious political discussions

:22:02.:22:03.

and if they want to have an argument about what they are wearing, their

:22:04.:22:06.

closest friends will advise them to keep it private. It is absurd. Given

:22:07.:22:16.

that the party appears to be deciding it has been all -- ordered

:22:17.:22:24.

to changes policies about Britain's relationship with the world, it

:22:25.:22:28.

needs to be taken seriously and this Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the

:22:29.:22:33.

serious discussion starts. Thank you for filling our vacuum this morning

:22:34.:22:37.

and of course no one would ever criticise how you dress. Of course.

:22:38.:22:41.

Now, seasoned observers will warn against reading too much

:22:42.:22:43.

into parliamentary by-elections, but they can provide a vital boost

:22:44.:22:46.

for a party leader under pressure, or provide damaging ammunition

:22:47.:22:48.

Following a disappointing result for Labour last week in Richmond,

:22:49.:22:51.

Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping for an early Christmas

:22:52.:22:54.

present at this week's contest in Lincolnshire.

:22:55.:22:55.

In Sleaford and North Hykeham, a constituency that supported Leave

:22:56.:23:04.

in the EU referendum, there was little Christmas cheer

:23:05.:23:06.

for Labour as it fell from second in 2015 to fourth place.

:23:07.:23:11.

That was at least a better performance than in

:23:12.:23:13.

Remain-supporting Richmond Park, where the party's candiate

:23:14.:23:17.

lost his deposit after attracting fewer voters than the reported

:23:18.:23:19.

number of local Labour Party members.

:23:20.:23:23.

Speaking for the Labour Party this week, MP Vernon Coaker

:23:24.:23:29.

said their policies on other major issues were "lost to an extent

:23:30.:23:33.

Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity is holding the party back.

:23:34.:23:45.

This week three frontbenchers were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy

:23:46.:23:49.

the party line and vote against a motion to begin

:23:50.:23:57.

the process of leaving the EU by the end of March.

:23:58.:24:00.

And a number of Labour MPs we've spoken to since Thursday's vote have

:24:01.:24:03.

said they fear the party now runs the risk of being squeezed

:24:04.:24:06.

by the Lib Dems and UKIP, or in the words of one,

:24:07.:24:09.

"being cannabilised, eaten from both ends".

:24:10.:24:13.

To compound their troubles, a national poll

:24:14.:24:15.

released on Friday put Labour at a seven-year low, trailing 17

:24:16.:24:17.

It's still a season of joy for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters -

:24:18.:24:24.

they point to a series of victories under his leadership,

:24:25.:24:26.

including a by-election win in Tooting and the London mayoral

:24:27.:24:29.

Though neither candidate was a Corbynite.

:24:30.:24:35.

But there's a distinct lack of goodwill on the party

:24:36.:24:39.

of his critics - although having failed comprehensively

:24:40.:24:41.

to challenge him this summer, what they intend to do

:24:42.:24:44.

This morning Diane Abbott played down the significance of the

:24:45.:24:54.

results. The reports of the Labour Party's demise are exaggerated, we

:24:55.:24:59.

are the largest social Democratic party in Europe and the surging

:25:00.:25:02.

membership is down to the current leadership. We have the right

:25:03.:25:06.

policies on the NHS, investing in the economy, and as you know the

:25:07.:25:09.

Tories are fatally split on Europe. And we're joined now

:25:10.:25:13.

by the former mayor of London Ken Livingstone,

:25:14.:25:15.

and the former Shadow Ken Livingstone, in the most recent

:25:16.:25:23.

by-election Labour collapsed from second to fourth place, the one

:25:24.:25:27.

before that your party lost its deposit. What is the positive gloss

:25:28.:25:33.

on that? There's nothing new in this, where you have got seats which

:25:34.:25:37.

are solidly Tory, often voters switched to Lib Dem to kick other

:25:38.:25:48.

voters out. We have had good swings that indicate a Labour government so

:25:49.:25:53.

don't pay too much attention. It is like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour

:25:54.:25:58.

voters switched just to kick the Tories out. Don't read too much into

:25:59.:26:08.

these results, Labour did win tooting so it is OK. First of all I

:26:09.:26:12.

don't think it was a problem with the candidates in the by-elections,

:26:13.:26:16.

they did a really good job locally, but there is an issue with those

:26:17.:26:21.

residents and their attitudes to the national party, and I just think

:26:22.:26:26.

that when you have warning bells going off like that, we have to

:26:27.:26:30.

listen to what people are saying. I think what they are saying is they

:26:31.:26:34.

want an opposition party to have a plan. So yes we have got to attack

:26:35.:26:38.

the Conservatives where they are going wrong on the NHS, running

:26:39.:26:43.

headlong over the cliff for a hard Brexit, but we also need a plan for

:26:44.:26:50.

what Labour's alternative will be. When do we get that plant?

:26:51.:26:57.

Effectively you have got it already. John McDonnell has gone on

:26:58.:27:00.

relentlessly for the need for a massive public investment. For

:27:01.:27:07.

decades now under Labour and Tory governments we haven't invested in

:27:08.:27:12.

infrastructure, our roads are a disgrace, a broadband is antique. We

:27:13.:27:17.

need to be honest about this, if Theresa May can come back and say

:27:18.:27:21.

I've done a deal, we are leaving the EU, we will control our borders, we

:27:22.:27:26.

won't have to pay 350 million a year and stay in the single market,

:27:27.:27:31.

well... But that won't happen. If we are going to stumble along for two

:27:32.:27:35.

years heading for an economic disaster, that's why only eight MPs

:27:36.:27:41.

voted to leave, because they knew the harm it would do to their

:27:42.:27:46.

voters. If you have got a plan, why are things getting worse for you in

:27:47.:27:49.

the national polls, 17 points behind? If you look back, when I was

:27:50.:27:54.

leader of Chelsea my poll rating went down... But you have not been

:27:55.:28:00.

as bad since 1983 when you lost an election by a landslide. Over the

:28:01.:28:06.

next two years our economy will not grow strongly, it will limp along at

:28:07.:28:11.

best, as we get closer to Brexit it will get worse. All Labour MPs

:28:12.:28:16.

should be focusing on the economic alternative because nobody ever wins

:28:17.:28:19.

an election without a credible economic strategy. So as long as the

:28:20.:28:25.

country goes to hell in a hand basket, Labour will be fine. That's

:28:26.:28:30.

not good enough. You're not a commentator any more, you are part

:28:31.:28:33.

of the leadership of the party. It is to you. I will continue to argue

:28:34.:28:40.

the case for credibility, particularly in our policies, but

:28:41.:28:43.

the leadership cannot just sit back and watch this drift. On the Brexit

:28:44.:28:48.

situation, the Conservative manifesto at the last general

:28:49.:28:55.

election promised it would be yes to the single market, why aren't we

:28:56.:28:58.

holding them to account for the broken promise potentially they are

:28:59.:29:03.

about to do? If I had still been an MP, I would have been voting with

:29:04.:29:07.

you, rebelling, because we are not going to get any good deal to leave.

:29:08.:29:12.

Theresa May will stumble on for a couple of years trying to balance...

:29:13.:29:17.

The party policies were heard from Diane Abbott this morning is to get

:29:18.:29:21.

the best possible deal to leave. And I will believe it when it happens.

:29:22.:29:26.

So you don't believe a central part of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy

:29:27.:29:32.

has accepted the fact people voted to leave. He now said we now need to

:29:33.:29:39.

get the best possible deal and you don't think it's achievable. I

:29:40.:29:44.

don't, because why would the other 27 members give us a better deal

:29:45.:29:51.

staying outside? You've confused me, why are you such a big supporter of

:29:52.:29:55.

Corbyn with his policy you don't think it's achievable?

:29:56.:30:02.

Everybody knows we are not going to get a soft exit, so we either have

:30:03.:30:09.

the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps millions, certainly hundreds of

:30:10.:30:13.

thousands of jobs, or we have to say we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot

:30:14.:30:19.

of people have been saying that all Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is

:30:20.:30:23.

why it is going wrong, I would suggest to you, that actually what

:30:24.:30:28.

the concentration on is the Tories are unclear about Brexit, they are

:30:29.:30:32.

in power, that is what matters, a bigger problem for Labour is whether

:30:33.:30:36.

Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut through or not. I think the YouGov

:30:37.:30:41.

poll this weekend not only gave us that double punch of a 17 point lead

:30:42.:30:47.

for the Conservatives but it had a 33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa

:30:48.:30:52.

May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of the plan, think, has to be to

:30:53.:30:55.

address this leadership issue, to make sure it is also a party that is

:30:56.:31:00.

listening to the wider public and not just the small number of members

:31:01.:31:08.

or the trotsites in Momentum or whoever is the latest Marxist on

:31:09.:31:17.

the... You The thing that is ox fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour

:31:18.:31:24.

has quoted bunkum. We have has 18 months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy

:31:25.:31:29.

in the back and some in the front. The vast majority of Labour MPs have

:31:30.:31:34.

stopped undermining Jeremy. You weren't doing that well before. Can

:31:35.:31:37.

you imagine a situation in which you have elected a new leader and the

:31:38.:31:40.

first year it is all about getting rid of imand undermining him. I

:31:41.:31:45.

disagree with Tony Blair on lots of policy issue, I didn't run wound

:31:46.:31:49.

saying this man is not fit to govern. That is because you had no

:31:50.:31:54.

support for that at the time. The idea people will take lectures from

:31:55.:32:00.

Ken on divisiveness, that is like takes lectures from Boris Johnson on

:32:01.:32:03.

diplomacy, you have to make sure, yes, that we find some accommodation

:32:04.:32:08.

after the leadership election this summer, but the plan is not there

:32:09.:32:14.

right now, and you and the rest of the leadership has to be held

:32:15.:32:19.

accountable for delivering that, I want to hear what the plan is. It is

:32:20.:32:25.

FDR he told us earlier. If you have got now because as we saw in the

:32:26.:32:31.

Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio at 90%, you can't convince the

:32:32.:32:34.

public by saying we will throw more money at the problem, the public

:32:35.:32:40.

want a credible plan, where the sums add up, that you are not making

:32:41.:32:44.

promises that won't be delivered. They want that plan. We need to

:32:45.:32:51.

point out our history, when Labour Waugh the election in 45 Government

:32:52.:32:57.

debt was two times that it was now.. Now.. They generated exports and

:32:58.:33:03.

within 50 years we virtually paid off that debt. Austerity is not the

:33:04.:33:08.

way to go. Our economy is a disgrace compared with Germany. I agree. What

:33:09.:33:14.

we have to start saying, there is decent jobs, where are they going to

:33:15.:33:18.

be coming from, can we have a society based on fair play and

:33:19.:33:22.

prosperity for everybody not just the wealthy, that means saying, some

:33:23.:33:25.

time, that people have to contribute, they have to put in, so

:33:26.:33:28.

we have to listen to what the public are saying on issues for instance

:33:29.:33:33.

like immigration, as they said in the Brexit referendum, but make sure

:33:34.:33:38.

we have our approach set out clearly, so people know there is a

:33:39.:33:42.

ability to manage, and control these things, not just ignore them. Those

:33:43.:33:49.

tax dodgers who launder their money through Panamanian banks. If we

:33:50.:33:58.

crackdown on what might be 150 billion a year of tax evasion and

:33:59.:34:03.

avoidance. That is a real outlier estimate as you know, way the

:34:04.:34:08.

highest, you cannot build the FDR programme on tax evasion revenues,

:34:09.:34:13.

alone, but let me ask you. You can say to Starbucks, if you are not

:34:14.:34:19.

going to pay tax on your profits we will tax every cup of coffee. Why

:34:20.:34:23.

don't you nationalise it? I was just checking that would be the policy.

:34:24.:34:29.

Let me ask you this. By what time do you get, start to get worrieded if

:34:30.:34:32.

the polls haven't given to turn round? I mean, I think they will

:34:33.:34:37.

turn round. When do you start to get worried? If they haven't? If in a

:34:38.:34:42.

year's time it was as bad as this we would be worried. I don't think it

:34:43.:34:45.

will be. Jeremy and his team will knows can on the economy, and that

:34:46.:34:52.

is wins every election. Bill Clinton, remember it's the economy

:34:53.:34:56.

stupid. People know if you are going to spend money they want to see

:34:57.:34:59.

where it is coming from, otherwise they will think it is their taxes

:35:00.:35:03.

that will go up and the Conservative, Theresa May, will

:35:04.:35:08.

scare the British public over plans that are not properly... What do you

:35:09.:35:13.

do if things haven't got better in 12 months? We lost the leadership

:35:14.:35:19.

election in the summer but we will hold our leadership to account. What

:35:20.:35:25.

does that mean? It means asking for the plan, testing what the proposals

:35:26.:35:29.

are, are they properly credible, do they make sure that they meet the

:35:30.:35:36.

test the public... You just have to bite the bottom lip now, you

:35:37.:35:41.

privately, a lot of you think your party is heading for catastrophe. I

:35:42.:35:46.

don't think it is acceptable that we have this level of performance,

:35:47.:35:51.

currently, I am sure Ken agrees the opinion polls, and those by

:35:52.:35:53.

by-election were just not good enough. We have to show leadership,

:35:54.:35:57.

certainly on Brexit, hold the Government to account. Attack them

:35:58.:36:01.

for the crisis in the NHS, yes and on the economy, to deliver credible

:36:02.:36:06.

policy force, example on defending national security and making sure we

:36:07.:36:08.

stand up for humanitarian intervention. Final point, your

:36:09.:36:14.

party has lost Scotland. You are now in third place behind the stories --

:36:15.:36:19.

Tories. I never thought I would be able to say that in a broadcast, if

:36:20.:36:24.

you lose the north too, you are heading for the smallest

:36:25.:36:26.

Parliamentary Labour Party since the war, aren't you. But that is our

:36:27.:36:33.

weakness, we in the 13 years of the last Labour Government neglected

:36:34.:36:34.

rebuilding our manufacturing in the way the Germans have done. Millions

:36:35.:36:39.

of people used to have good job, we used to have 8 million jobs in

:36:40.:36:44.

manufacturing it is down two. It is in the north, that Jeremy's strategy

:36:45.:36:48.

has the most relevance, of actually getting the investment and

:36:49.:36:52.

rebuilding. All right. We will see. Come back in 12 months if not before

:36:53.:36:53.

and we will check it out. It's just gone 11.35,

:36:54.:36:58.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:36:59.:37:00.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:01.:37:03.

minutes, we'll be talking about Boris Johnson's tour

:37:04.:37:06.

of the Middle East after straying off message, again,

:37:07.:37:08.

and the protestors attempting First though, the Sunday

:37:09.:37:10.

Politics where you are. Unanimous calls this week

:37:11.:37:24.

for health bosses to be Could Devon be divided in two

:37:25.:37:32.

by plans for a new super authority? For the next 20 minutes, I am joined

:37:33.:37:46.

by Labour peer Ann Mallalieu and North Devon's Conservative MP

:37:47.:37:50.

Peter Heaton-Jones. MPs of all parties finally got

:37:51.:37:51.

to have their first vote The region's sole Labour MP

:37:52.:37:55.

Ben Bradshaw was one of just 89 MPs who voted against a government

:37:56.:37:59.

amendment on when Article 50 I cannot support the government's

:38:00.:38:02.

Amendment because it is in effect gives a blank cheque for us

:38:03.:38:11.

to invoke article 50 of us being any the wiser of

:38:12.:38:13.

the government's intentions today. And all of the signals

:38:14.:38:17.

from the Prime Minister's speech at her party conference since has

:38:18.:38:24.

been that the majority of the government wants

:38:25.:38:26.

and is heading for a hard Brexit, disastrous for jobs and prosperity

:38:27.:38:29.

in my constituency. A lot of speculation

:38:30.:38:32.

as to what the Lords might do through the Brexit process

:38:33.:38:35.

and whether they might Well, I'm a Brexiteer, which is

:38:36.:38:37.

a little unusual in my party. I'm very worried about the Lords

:38:38.:38:49.

because the noises in every debate we have recently,

:38:50.:38:52.

and one as recently as ten days ago, were that there is a large majority

:38:53.:39:02.

of people who would like to throw It is described as holding

:39:03.:39:05.

the government to account, it is described as scrutinising,

:39:06.:39:08.

but the reality is that there are people who simply cannot accept

:39:09.:39:11.

the view of the electorate, and I would like to see

:39:12.:39:14.

what I suppose you could call We might not have liked the way

:39:15.:39:17.

we are now, but now we're here we're going to make a bigger success

:39:18.:39:24.

as we can of it. And I would like to see

:39:25.:39:27.

all the parties getting behind supporting getting the best deal

:39:28.:39:30.

we can, not trying to trap the government up in trying to do

:39:31.:39:32.

a very difficult negotiation. Have you got any red lines now

:39:33.:39:35.

in this whole negotiation process, as some people have,

:39:36.:39:39.

single market, whatever that is? What I want, I suspect similar

:39:40.:39:44.

to Ann, is to get this done now. We've got to get it moving,

:39:45.:39:52.

we don't want any more in the House of Commons on Wednesday

:39:53.:39:57.

for what actually started off as a Labour motion

:39:58.:40:01.

amended by the government, but that is all complicated

:40:02.:40:03.

Westminster village type politics. What I want to know is we get on,

:40:04.:40:05.

we leave the EU, we do it in the best possible way,

:40:06.:40:09.

and I use every avenue I have got to say let's do it in the best way

:40:10.:40:12.

for businesses and families in North Relations between council leaders

:40:13.:40:16.

in Devon arguably hit an all-time low on Friday,

:40:17.:40:19.

as it emerged a small group of councils were pursuing plans

:40:20.:40:21.

for a South Devon may. of councils were pursuing plans

:40:22.:40:24.

for a South Devon mayor. Undermining the devolution bed

:40:25.:40:26.

for the whole of Devon and Somerset already agreed and submitted

:40:27.:40:29.

to the government. It coincided with the Local

:40:30.:40:31.

Government Secretary's first visit to Cornwall,

:40:32.:40:32.

to discuss its devolution deal, which he previously had been less

:40:33.:40:34.

than complimentary about. At Cornwall Council,

:40:35.:40:37.

they are getting ready for Christmas, and a visit

:40:38.:40:40.

from someone very special. Not Santa, but the Local

:40:41.:40:43.

Government Secretary. Sajid Javid caused

:40:44.:40:52.

great excitement at He spent three hours inside,

:40:53.:40:53.

discussing among other things the government's biggest

:40:54.:41:01.

gift to councils. The Local Government Secretary

:41:02.:41:07.

is due to emerge any minute now, and the question is whether he will

:41:08.:41:10.

emerge buoyant about Cornwall's growth prospects or bruised,

:41:11.:41:13.

having had to answer some tough It was Mr Javid's first

:41:14.:41:15.

visit to Cornwall. Two months ago he came to Exeter

:41:16.:41:19.

and upset Cornwall's councillors, saying they might not get everything

:41:20.:41:22.

on their devolution wish list. Anyone who wants an ambitious deal,

:41:23.:41:28.

they are going to have to have a mayor, and frankly

:41:29.:41:30.

the Cornwall one was Was Cornwall's Council

:41:31.:41:33.

as unambitious as you had feared? Actually they have some excellent

:41:34.:41:46.

ideas for future - both council leaders and businesses,

:41:47.:41:49.

who I've been meeting with today, they've got a devolution

:41:50.:41:51.

deal that is in place, and today is all about making sure

:41:52.:41:53.

how do we work together to make the most of it,

:41:54.:41:56.

how do we create more Are you still sceptical

:41:57.:41:59.

about whether or not Cornwall has I have never been

:42:00.:42:02.

sceptical about it. You said on the stage

:42:03.:42:08.

in Exeter, what was the point They are the only ones who got away

:42:09.:42:11.

with not having a mayor, but you've got to ask yourself

:42:12.:42:18.

what is the point of going down this road unless you really

:42:19.:42:22.

want to make a difference, and if you do, you have

:42:23.:42:24.

got to have a mayor. What I said is each deal

:42:25.:42:27.

is different, and Cornwall If you go to Greater Manchester

:42:28.:42:29.

they have a different type of deal. All of these deals, every one

:42:30.:42:33.

of them, are bespoke. They should be led from

:42:34.:42:36.

the bottom-up, local leaders, local businesses coming to central

:42:37.:42:39.

government and saying, if you gave us powers over this

:42:40.:42:41.

or that we could make more of it, Cornwall's councillors seem

:42:42.:42:45.

pleased by the warm words they have been given,

:42:46.:42:50.

but it is still not clear whether they will get more

:42:51.:42:52.

power without a mayor. Meanwhile in Devon, councillors

:42:53.:43:00.

do not yet have a devolution deal. They have submitted a bid that joins

:43:01.:43:02.

up the wall of Devon and Somerset, They have submitted a bid that joins

:43:03.:43:07.

up the whole of Devon and Somerset, but the councillors leading it

:43:08.:43:10.

will not accept a mayor. I spoke to the Minister quite

:43:11.:43:13.

bluntly, you're talking about us having a mayor,

:43:14.:43:15.

we have 17 local authorities working The amount of money you're putting

:43:16.:43:17.

up in front of us is not Give us the powers and we can

:43:18.:43:23.

get the jobs done. But this week we have learned that

:43:24.:43:28.

some of those Devon and Somerset councils are prepared

:43:29.:43:31.

to have a mayor. We understand senior

:43:32.:43:33.

councillors in Exeter, Torbay and Plymouth,

:43:34.:43:34.

who were signed up to the original plan, are now working on a separate

:43:35.:43:37.

devolution bed for South Devon. are now working on a separate

:43:38.:43:39.

devolution bid for South Devon. What about Devon, they

:43:40.:43:42.

are working this week on a new devolution bid,

:43:43.:43:44.

with a mayor. What is your message

:43:45.:43:46.

to the Conservative councillors I have not seen that bid yet,

:43:47.:43:48.

but I look forward to receiving it. I wanted to ask about the

:43:49.:43:53.

inter-council rivalry his preference for a mayor is causing,

:43:54.:44:06.

but like other special visitors at this time of year,

:44:07.:44:08.

he does not stick around long. Peter, I would like to cut

:44:09.:44:11.

to the chase with you, One of your colleagues,

:44:12.:44:13.

the South Devon MP, said that if this South Devon mayoral proposal

:44:14.:44:17.

went through, frankly it could be pretty disastrous

:44:18.:44:19.

for the rest of Devon, This is looking like dogs breakfast,

:44:20.:44:22.

to be honest with you. All I want for North Devon

:44:23.:44:37.

is the best possible deal. I want to make sure we do not have

:44:38.:44:41.

any more decades where we do not get our fair slice of the cake,

:44:42.:44:44.

which has happened for ages What I want is a deal that says

:44:45.:44:47.

we get fair share in North Devon, frankly all bits of Devon that

:44:48.:45:00.

are not Exeter, Plymouth and Torbay, The second thing is I do not think

:45:01.:45:03.

most people who represent in North Devon cared about all this

:45:04.:45:07.

going on behind the scenes, they want the rubbish collected

:45:08.:45:10.

on time, they want to make sure their potholes are filled,

:45:11.:45:13.

or they get the fear sure their potholes are filled,

:45:14.:45:15.

or they get the fair All of this hooha behind

:45:16.:45:18.

the scenes is a distraction. I hope we can come together

:45:19.:45:21.

but if we cannot, I am going to fight to make sure whatever

:45:22.:45:24.

is the outcome, North Devon Do you think that joint Devon

:45:25.:45:27.

and Somerset bid should now accept a mayor because it strikes me,

:45:28.:45:33.

the government has been very clear that it likes and wants a mayor,

:45:34.:45:35.

and might it be the case that the rest of Devon

:45:36.:45:40.

and Somerset keep saying no, but you have people in Plymouth

:45:41.:45:42.

and Torbay saying we're on message, we are with the government's agenda,

:45:43.:45:45.

the government might say, Cornwall got devolution without

:45:46.:45:48.

a mayor, as we heard in your report. There is no question

:45:49.:45:51.

in the world to which the answer So I am not at all convinced that

:45:52.:45:54.

another elected politician, call them a mayor or whatever fancy

:45:55.:45:58.

nameplate you want to have on their desk, I do not know how

:45:59.:46:00.

that will help me get better roads, better connectivity,

:46:01.:46:04.

better council services. Labour started the whole

:46:05.:46:05.

mayoral stuff running. But in London, you know,

:46:06.:46:11.

very much an urban thing. You're the president

:46:12.:46:16.

of the Countryside Alliance. Do you think this could work

:46:17.:46:22.

in places like rural I am very sceptical

:46:23.:46:25.

about mayors altogether. It seems to me that it is all too

:46:26.:46:39.

often a job for a politician who has And there seem to be many

:46:40.:46:43.

candidates along those lines. Boris Johnson, maybe,

:46:44.:46:47.

maybe the jury are out time that. I can see the government find it

:46:48.:46:50.

much easier to deal with one person, someone who perhaps speaks

:46:51.:46:59.

their language, but unless it is somebody of exceptional

:47:00.:47:02.

ability, I do not think I think the councils

:47:03.:47:04.

who have very good leaders, very often did a superb job,

:47:05.:47:07.

I cannot see that unless you have an outstanding and exceptional

:47:08.:47:10.

figure that a mayor is going to add anything to a local authority's bid

:47:11.:47:13.

for more money, more jobs, Money is crucial to this,

:47:14.:47:16.

it is understandable that if money is dangled before local authorities

:47:17.:47:20.

with some conditions, local authorities will be

:47:21.:47:21.

tempted to go for it. It sounded like a threat -

:47:22.:47:24.

if you don't, you will not get it. And I do not understand why

:47:25.:47:27.

there should be such pressure because it seems to me

:47:28.:47:29.

that there are not able people queueing up to do these jobs,

:47:30.:47:35.

whatever the county, and there are many councillors

:47:36.:47:37.

who know the job better than a mayor On the money front, we're just

:47:38.:47:40.

fighting for our fair share I am yet to be convinced that we go

:47:41.:47:43.

for this devolution, It may be from a different pot,

:47:44.:47:47.

but is that our fair share for areas like mine,

:47:48.:47:56.

sparsely populated, away from the South Devon urban areas,

:47:57.:47:58.

that is what I think I want to use my energy

:47:59.:48:01.

to fight for a fairer deal. Is the risk that all of this

:48:02.:48:05.

infighting, that one of your colleagues in South Devon

:48:06.:48:07.

said today, actually makes you all look disorganised

:48:08.:48:10.

and perhaps a bit ridiculous to the government, which then

:48:11.:48:15.

will disincline it to do anything? I do not think it is infighting,

:48:16.:48:18.

I think it is a challenge for all local authorities to make

:48:19.:48:21.

sure they get the best deal that they possibly can,

:48:22.:48:24.

that's what I'm doing. It is infighting, isn't it, surely,

:48:25.:48:30.

this thing we're seeing in South Devon and the rest

:48:31.:48:32.

of Devon and Somerset? They are fighting the corner,

:48:33.:48:35.

I'm going to fight mine. Devon County Council voted

:48:36.:48:37.

unanimously this week for a programme of major changes

:48:38.:48:40.

to the county's health The reforms driven by massive

:48:41.:48:42.

financial problems involve There has also been fierce

:48:43.:48:45.

criticisms about the way Back from visiting time,

:48:46.:48:48.

Russell is currently a regular at Barnstable's North Devon District

:48:49.:48:55.

Hospital. His elderly father is there,

:48:56.:48:59.

having displayed stroke symptoms, and his daughter's planned homebirth

:49:00.:49:02.

this week ended up happening On both of those occasions,

:49:03.:49:04.

they would have had to have a trip down to Exeter, which for my father

:49:05.:49:11.

would have been outside of the hour. For my daughter she was in labour,

:49:12.:49:24.

touch and go whether she had given birth in the ambulance

:49:25.:49:27.

on the way down. Seven years ago Russell's own life

:49:28.:49:37.

was saved in A having had He said his family's

:49:38.:49:40.

experiences show how having the services nearby and not 45

:49:41.:49:44.

miles away in Exeter We have the best health

:49:45.:49:47.

service in the world. And it is systematically being taken

:49:48.:49:50.

apart, piece by piece. It is just such a shame

:49:51.:49:52.

that the generations to come will not have that unless we fight

:49:53.:49:55.

for it now. Russell's not alone

:49:56.:49:57.

in wanting to fight. Campaigners have been taking

:49:58.:49:59.

to Devon's streets in recent months, challenging health bosses' talk

:50:00.:50:01.

of no red lines, amid reviews of maternity, paediatrics

:50:02.:50:04.

and emergency services in North East And feelings run very

:50:05.:50:06.

high in South Devon, when people had to be turned away

:50:07.:50:12.

from meetings to discuss plans As well as one in six beds

:50:13.:50:15.

in Devon's larger hospitals. On Thursday it was the turn

:50:16.:50:24.

of Devon's county councillors to send a message to NHS chiefs,

:50:25.:50:27.

18 months after experts were parachuted in to rescue

:50:28.:50:30.

struggling health services in the north-east and west

:50:31.:50:32.

of the county under something called a success regime,

:50:33.:50:40.

calls here for the process to be paused while the funding

:50:41.:50:42.

situation is resolved, and calls for clarity

:50:43.:50:49.

about the Devon-wide five-year sustainability and transformation

:50:50.:50:51.

plan, or STP, which There is a copy of this STP document

:50:52.:50:53.

which came out a few months ago which suggested that maternity

:50:54.:50:57.

services would be taken away from North Devon,

:50:58.:50:59.

then the latest version of the STP does not seem to

:51:00.:51:02.

mention these things. There was uproar when we saw that,

:51:03.:51:03.

and how we expect any member of the public to engage

:51:04.:51:06.

in a sensible consultation for the future when we eventually

:51:07.:51:09.

get told what the proposals are, The deficit facing Devon's health

:51:10.:51:12.

services is claimed to be ?557 million by 2020,

:51:13.:51:25.

if things do not change. At Westminster this week one Devon

:51:26.:51:28.

MP says the plans to bring health and social care together will only

:51:29.:51:32.

work if there is more We need to do it in a sensible

:51:33.:51:34.

timescale, having thought about what the options really are,

:51:35.:51:45.

rather than forcing this through by 2020, 2021,

:51:46.:51:47.

and we need some proper transition funding because if you think

:51:48.:51:49.

about it, while we all agree we can do this more efficiently,

:51:50.:51:55.

indeed the Kings fund has said that clearly,

:51:56.:51:57.

we cannot just cut things without looking at how do we then

:51:58.:52:03.

enable the new services No signs of any respite

:52:04.:52:06.

for our region's under The Royal Cornwall Hospitals Trust

:52:07.:52:11.

declared itself on the highest alert possible, with increasing pressure

:52:12.:52:17.

on A, clinicians finding let difficult to find beds

:52:18.:52:19.

for new admissions and a lack We're joined by Angela Peder,

:52:20.:52:22.

the chief executive To begin with, just to be clear,

:52:23.:52:27.

there was a suggestion in the report that there may be some confusion

:52:28.:52:32.

as to what exactly is being proposed, particularly

:52:33.:52:35.

with reference to North Devon, as we have Peter with us,

:52:36.:52:46.

what cuts are being proposed? The NHS budget has not been cut,

:52:47.:52:48.

what we have not been The proposals we are making that

:52:49.:52:52.

have been in the public domain now since February are around reducing

:52:53.:52:58.

the number of Community Hospital beds we are consulting on,

:52:59.:53:00.

and I have launched a series of reviews in respect of A

:53:01.:53:04.

services, maternity services and stroke services across Devon,

:53:05.:53:06.

and we will look at services in North Devon and everywhere else

:53:07.:53:10.

in Devon and make proposals Effectively, services

:53:11.:53:12.

like a maternity unit could go, We will review all services,

:53:13.:53:16.

there are no proposals at all, but we know there are a number

:53:17.:53:25.

of services where we do not currently meet national standards,

:53:26.:53:28.

and if we look forward we will be neither clinically nor

:53:29.:53:31.

financially sustainable, so we have got to plan

:53:32.:53:32.

for the future, think what might happen in two, three,

:53:33.:53:35.

five years' time and make sure we have sustainable services that

:53:36.:53:37.

are accessible for populations. This seems to be the message

:53:38.:53:45.

from Devon County Council, there should be pause

:53:46.:53:51.

and more reflection. We have to make progress in terms

:53:52.:53:56.

of the changes that we need to make. Some services are very vulnerable,

:53:57.:54:03.

so ENT services in North Devon had to close at very short notice

:54:04.:54:06.

because somebody left and they had to be transferred without a plan

:54:07.:54:08.

for that to take place. We have a responsibility to make

:54:09.:54:11.

sure for the public call We cannot just wait for something

:54:12.:54:14.

to fall over and say, why did we not So we have to have those discussions

:54:15.:54:18.

upfront, in an open way, And it is challenging and difficult,

:54:19.:54:22.

but they are the right We have seen a lot of

:54:23.:54:27.

people on the streets You have been lobbying

:54:28.:54:31.

strongly on this. Does this make you wonder slightly

:54:32.:54:36.

whether people are getting worried I met Angela on a couple

:54:37.:54:43.

of occasions, she has come to Barnstable on my invitation,

:54:44.:54:47.

and she is coming in the New Year to go on a tour of some of the more

:54:48.:54:50.

geographically isolated areas of North Devon, and this

:54:51.:54:53.

is the whole point of It takes 3.5 hours if you live

:54:54.:54:56.

on parts of the north coast of the constituency to get to Exeter

:54:57.:55:00.

or to Plymouth, and that is not There are no proposals and I want

:55:01.:55:03.

to make sure it gets no further. I made it quite clear

:55:04.:55:12.

to Angela I understand the need for the process,

:55:13.:55:14.

Devon County Council have come I do not think a pause

:55:15.:55:16.

is going to be possible because the sustainability

:55:17.:55:22.

and transformation plans are happening across the NHS,

:55:23.:55:23.

across all 43 regions of England. What I am saying is the process

:55:24.:55:32.

needs to be undertaken in such a way that we make sure the unique

:55:33.:55:35.

geographical challenges that we have into account, that should be

:55:36.:55:38.

the first thing on the spreadsheet, if you like, we should not just be

:55:39.:55:42.

looking at money, we should be looking at care for

:55:43.:55:45.

people in North Devon. I cannot see a way to deliver good

:55:46.:55:48.

clinical care by cutting acute I have had this conversation

:55:49.:55:51.

with Peter, and he knows I have argued nationally in terms

:55:52.:55:54.

of the remoteness of North Devon. But we have to have services

:55:55.:55:57.

that are sustainable, and Peter wants high-quality

:55:58.:55:59.

services for his But we will have to look

:56:00.:56:01.

at what needs to change, how do we work in a very different

:56:02.:56:04.

way, but that is why we need We know North Devon was designated

:56:05.:56:08.

as a trauma unit, even though it does not meet all of the standards

:56:09.:56:19.

because of the rurality OK, the rurality is something

:56:20.:56:21.

you're interested in. I suspect you'd possibly

:56:22.:56:33.

be within the remit Slightly over the border

:56:34.:56:35.

in Somerset, but I am indeed, obviously very concerned that

:56:36.:56:39.

if somebody has an accident you want to get them

:56:40.:56:41.

to a hospital quickly. But I think all political parties

:56:42.:56:44.

really need to change their approach The National Health service

:56:45.:56:47.

cannot go on as it is. Somebody said it is the best

:56:48.:56:50.

in the world, it is not any longer because we cannot fund

:56:51.:56:53.

what we are trying All parties at some point have

:56:54.:56:55.

got to have the courage to stand up and say,

:56:56.:56:59.

this has got to be done cross-party, we have got to look

:57:00.:57:02.

at what the National Health service service can provide,

:57:03.:57:09.

how it is to be funded, and we're going to have to make changes,

:57:10.:57:11.

and some of those will come we do not want to keep people

:57:12.:57:14.

in hospital more than a moment We can do much more on day surgery,

:57:15.:57:18.

we can do much more on home visits, as I know Angela was saying

:57:19.:57:23.

because we talked about it earlier. So there has to be a proper look,

:57:24.:57:26.

which is not just driven Time for our regular round-up

:57:27.:57:29.

of the political week in 60 seconds. Sixth formers in Cornwall are told

:57:30.:57:44.

they could lose their council Every time it is those

:57:45.:57:47.

from low-income backgrounds in rural communities

:57:48.:57:50.

who are already struggling. The floods minister says

:57:51.:57:54.

she is confident work to stop the main rail line at Exeter

:57:55.:57:57.

being washed away will make a real difference,

:57:58.:57:59.

and will be completed on time. The real meat of the scheme will be

:58:00.:58:02.

delivered over the next two years, and options are being finalised

:58:03.:58:05.

in order to make sure that we see Householders in a block of flats

:58:06.:58:08.

in Exmouth are asked not to put holly wreaths on the door this

:58:09.:58:15.

Christmas because the council says No such concern surrounding

:58:16.:58:17.

the refund Christmas tree Both of which this year come

:58:18.:58:28.

from a farm on Dartmouth. Are you all looking

:58:29.:58:33.

forward to Christmas? Are you all looking

:58:34.:58:34.

forward to Christmas?! Peter, we have now got

:58:35.:58:38.

all the reports and the expert opinion in on what needs to be done

:58:39.:58:48.

to improve our beleaguered Still no firm ideas as to what and

:58:49.:58:51.

when the government will act. The very day that the rail line

:58:52.:59:00.

was closed again at Cowley Bridge, to lobby for investment in our vital

:59:01.:59:07.

North Devon line between Exeter About two weeks before

:59:08.:59:11.

that I met the floods minister, who you saw there,

:59:12.:59:15.

to that North Devon is especially

:59:16.:59:17.

vulnerable to flooding. We are getting some movement,

:59:18.:59:18.

working as a cabal of Devon MPs. And, as always, having

:59:19.:59:23.

you on as the president of the Countryside Alliance,

:59:24.:59:27.

have you any sense as to where the government is in moving

:59:28.:59:33.

towards its long-standing commitment to having a free vote on repealing

:59:34.:59:36.

the ban hunting with dogs? The government is committed

:59:37.:59:39.

to removing bad law. It has been for a long time,

:59:40.:59:41.

but we haven't seen any action. Unfortunately they were stopped

:59:42.:59:44.

from making some seriously important changes by the Scots,

:59:45.:59:46.

who decided to intervene in a matter As long as there is a substantial

:59:47.:59:49.

number of Scottish MPs and they are allowed to vote

:59:50.:59:53.

on purely English issues, I do not know when the election

:59:54.:59:55.

is going to come - Peter may - but it might be a bit sooner

:59:56.:00:03.

than some of us think, and that still the biggest factor. We are

:00:04.:00:06.

running out of time. Now, Foreign Secretary

:00:07.:00:15.

Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -

:00:16.:00:29.

yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia

:00:30.:00:32.

of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"

:00:33.:00:35.

in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention

:00:36.:00:36.

of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime

:00:37.:00:39.

minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon

:00:40.:00:42.

was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,

:00:43.:00:49.

the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply

:00:50.:00:57.

we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,

:00:58.:00:59.

and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over

:01:00.:01:02.

the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing

:01:03.:01:04.

in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people

:01:05.:01:07.

to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way

:01:08.:01:15.

it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left

:01:16.:01:17.

people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia

:01:18.:01:19.

and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been

:01:20.:01:28.

in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,

:01:29.:01:30.

so how's he been received? Our security correspondent

:01:31.:01:32.

Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson

:01:33.:01:34.

was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time

:01:35.:01:45.

since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary

:01:46.:01:49.

visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of

:01:50.:01:56.

it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a

:01:57.:02:00.

tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I

:02:01.:02:04.

have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss

:02:05.:02:09.

about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,

:02:10.:02:14.

I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage

:02:15.:02:17.

limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of

:02:18.:02:23.

smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they

:02:24.:02:27.

are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten

:02:28.:02:32.

and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is

:02:33.:02:36.

in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few

:02:37.:02:41.

minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting

:02:42.:02:46.

the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him

:02:47.:02:49.

according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their

:02:50.:02:53.

security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they

:02:54.:02:58.

are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that

:02:59.:03:02.

has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris

:03:03.:03:05.

Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's

:03:06.:03:10.

supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have

:03:11.:03:15.

had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr

:03:16.:03:23.

Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is

:03:24.:03:32.

in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words

:03:33.:03:37.

Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running

:03:38.:03:44.

up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by

:03:45.:03:48.

some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the

:03:49.:03:55.

gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic

:03:56.:04:00.

mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will

:04:01.:04:05.

reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in

:04:06.:04:12.

building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities

:04:13.:04:15.

that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15

:04:16.:04:18.

hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven

:04:19.:04:23.

warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain

:04:24.:04:27.

withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and

:04:28.:04:32.

off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.

:04:33.:04:38.

In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,

:04:39.:04:45.

but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big

:04:46.:04:49.

emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties

:04:50.:04:53.

with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,

:04:54.:05:00.

I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a

:05:01.:05:06.

large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with

:05:07.:05:08.

Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the

:05:09.:05:14.

conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you

:05:15.:05:16.

very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr

:05:17.:05:26.

Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there

:05:27.:05:32.

has just given us a really important development, or explained what the

:05:33.:05:36.

British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big

:05:37.:05:40.

time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is

:05:41.:05:44.

fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this

:05:45.:05:49.

is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's

:05:50.:05:53.

role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the

:05:54.:05:58.

Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in

:05:59.:06:03.

a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about

:06:04.:06:08.

it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason

:06:09.:06:12.

that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are

:06:13.:06:18.

pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level

:06:19.:06:23.

power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.

:06:24.:06:26.

What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big

:06:27.:06:33.

story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we

:06:34.:06:37.

are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,

:06:38.:06:43.

most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights

:06:44.:06:47.

country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,

:06:48.:06:53.

unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is

:06:54.:07:01.

the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty

:07:02.:07:06.

unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits

:07:07.:07:10.

open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will

:07:11.:07:14.

go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be

:07:15.:07:19.

involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe

:07:20.:07:22.

and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our

:07:23.:07:27.

knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever

:07:28.:07:33.

they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that

:07:34.:07:37.

is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are

:07:38.:07:42.

the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are

:07:43.:07:46.

leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am

:07:47.:07:52.

trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got

:07:53.:07:56.

yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of

:07:57.:08:01.

Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word

:08:02.:08:05.

like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?

:08:06.:08:10.

I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back

:08:11.:08:14.

in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,

:08:15.:08:17.

the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in

:08:18.:08:22.

the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S

:08:23.:08:28.

one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in

:08:29.:08:33.

the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because

:08:34.:08:40.

it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that

:08:41.:08:44.

these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what

:08:45.:08:51.

FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has

:08:52.:08:56.

been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't

:08:57.:09:03.

have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it

:09:04.:09:12.

needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be

:09:13.:09:16.

turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and

:09:17.:09:20.

the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.

:09:21.:09:25.

You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the

:09:26.:09:28.

Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that

:09:29.:09:32.

the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a

:09:33.:09:38.

speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.

:09:39.:09:40.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

:09:41.:09:53.

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

:09:54.:09:56.

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

:09:57.:10:09.

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

:10:10.:10:15.

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

:10:16.:10:19.

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

:10:20.:10:25.

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

:10:26.:10:28.

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

:10:29.:10:34.

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

:10:35.:10:41.

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

:10:42.:10:44.

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

:10:45.:10:52.

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

:10:53.:10:57.

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

:10:58.:11:01.

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

:11:02.:11:07.

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

:11:08.:11:10.

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

:11:11.:11:14.

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

:11:15.:11:19.

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

:11:20.:11:24.

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

:11:25.:11:29.

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

:11:30.:11:36.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

:11:37.:11:40.

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

:11:41.:11:46.

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

:11:47.:11:51.

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

:11:52.:11:56.

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

:11:57.:12:00.

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

:12:01.:12:04.

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

:12:05.:12:07.

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

:12:08.:12:12.

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

:12:13.:12:15.

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

:12:16.:12:21.

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

:12:22.:12:26.

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

:12:27.:12:31.

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

:12:32.:12:35.

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

:12:36.:12:38.

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

:12:39.:12:43.

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

:12:44.:12:49.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

:12:50.:12:54.

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

:12:55.:12:58.

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

:12:59.:13:03.

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

:13:04.:13:07.

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

:13:08.:13:14.

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

:13:15.:13:20.

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

:13:21.:13:24.

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

:13:25.:13:26.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

:13:27.:13:31.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

:13:32.:13:37.

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

:13:38.:13:40.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

:13:41.:13:43.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:44.:14:40.

# We're going to have a party tonight

:14:41.:14:46.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Former London mayor Ken Livingstone and former shadow chancellor Chris Leslie discuss Labour's electoral fortunes, and former chancellor Ken Clarke talks about rebelling over this week's Brexit vote. The Political Panel consists of Iain Martin of Reaction, Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun and Polly Toynbee of The Guardian.


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