26/02/2017 Sunday Politics South West


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,


not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.


But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,


the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.


Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,


but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party


The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.


You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!


And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact


of migration on Sweden, but after riots in Stockholm this


In the South West: The mentally ill teenagers demanding politicians


And children's services facing spending cuts


In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local


authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?


And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased


to say have so far not been banned from the White House.


I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,


but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,


We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last


Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe


British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it


may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is


difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a


credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the


campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin


with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but


they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's


hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems


they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If


Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at


the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind


despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never


more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's


the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she


faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher


who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked


like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up


to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite


often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK


opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her


agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips


with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be


for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both


strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and


very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more


dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go


wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think


through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority


of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put


under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the


two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or


the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to


operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party


to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be


disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that


would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip


coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the


moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures


might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite


anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press


ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a


slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of


transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people


happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground


and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in


which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for


today. Thursday was a big night


for political obsessives like us, with not one but two


significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain


to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,


the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just


a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent


were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall


on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon


is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning


strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved


to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result


in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away


in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another


Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both


places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal


by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,


Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,


winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,


where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it


onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare


that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory


here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader


played down the defeat, insisting his party's


time would come. Are you going to stand again


as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,


don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat


the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this


weekend who have got But a few minutes later,


it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,


the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000


votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight


is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,


but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18


points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes


I think is an incredible The morning after the night


before, the losing parties were licking their wounds


and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,


Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,


that era has gone. It's a new era, it is


a second age for us. So that needs to be


more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,


you know, and that will We have to continue to improve


in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,


we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,


is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come


here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP


for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived


in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to


Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour


leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some


theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost


a seat to a governing party for the first time


since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning


looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -


could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives


who came out on top. No governing party has made


a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army


of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out


here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain


on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in


Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring


conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson


warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat


seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated


south of the border. Well, I'm joined now


by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost


Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the


UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would


absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to


support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing


for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for


everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn


around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do


while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we


were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working


class communities across the country, but we listened very hard


to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm


committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is


committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in


Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even


Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will


try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general


election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm


the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for


our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish


Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we


stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity


platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and


invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also


supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to


a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together


by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the


federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that


ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional


Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party


and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will


take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party


can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide


Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.


Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to


carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level


is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to


prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not


to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the


point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say


there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it


and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of


this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that


happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder


people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What


evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an


English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal


regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell


you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that


here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.


What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast


that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the


north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that


Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel


remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being


exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in


because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways


it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is


leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation


of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers


to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English


context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the


English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,


correct? It is absolutely the policy of the


UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention


to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're


promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not


even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is


not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to


Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.


United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not


united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power


in this country. It is not united on that


issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard


yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people


like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local


Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.


Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the


whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a


conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come


onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He


wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish


nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance


yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear


yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was


saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people


and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up


living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is


forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,


it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the


consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing


under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with


ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He


said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last


minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and


reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish


nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that


even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of


nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it


is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.


Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly


refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the


SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did


not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is


divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.


Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in


Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence


question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want


to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and


no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers


lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,


your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he


referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --


and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive


politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we


are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from


saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That


is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really


struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about


being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear


that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the


length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is


what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back


together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'


time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for


joining us. Thursday's win for Labour


in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,


but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall


there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's


principal political Welcome to the programme. Good


morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,


months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip


was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting


Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of


Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to


make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in


Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.


We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment


that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.


Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.


A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out


publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of


Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt


about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well


the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of


Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are


passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the


most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What


would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul


Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic


cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip


supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was


marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip


to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning


what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is


counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more


difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a


Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against


triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the


Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It


comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.


You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,


they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning


Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso


labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,


it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a


future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour


Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not


recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around


campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We


believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working


class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in


Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable


to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social


solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation


and community. We want an immigration system that is not only


reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a


whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When


Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he


was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It


would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of


Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions


and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will


fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true


that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote


might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and


disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,


Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant


tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on


immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the


spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech


before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the


result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to


set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you


have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,


do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and


freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is


certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,


particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing


to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.


If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps


to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the


Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil


Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As


far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party


formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He


says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.


He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What


do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many


months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas


Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi


chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the


moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth


running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I


understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip


if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.


Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and


support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate


and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,


people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the


party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You


have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it


could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too


optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'


time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the


guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a


little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get


seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will


of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a


magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.


Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often


should because this week it was pulled into


the global spotlight, thanks


Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that


had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open


Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred


and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking


about a report he had watched on Fox News.


But as if to prove he was onto something,


next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb


with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas


So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?


In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second


That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced


border restrictions and stopped offering permanent


Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,


although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven


Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants


have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.


Although the country does have the highest reported


rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises


were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.


Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled


Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes


Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers


We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the


governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and


The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,


pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later


serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm


so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is


misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is


important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for


the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate


that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social


unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical


backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic


reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of


crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo


attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that


was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox


News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that


because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish


authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant


to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly


the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides


because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force


which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of


evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the


rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the


rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar


forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian


authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity


so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of


lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is


difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many


crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault


are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman


goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped


her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as


365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news


from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the


last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times


higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo


where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.


Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now


dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what


I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for


people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is


a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we


want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to


receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because


having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I


think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at


one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed


that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it


sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.


Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do


everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other


countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you


look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country


they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live


in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start


enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The


unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than


non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and


the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have


brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do


much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration


that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated


and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and


working in different fields of society, and they help our country.


Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes


time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I


put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a


result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad


as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can


put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of


these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.


Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,


they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees


into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for


the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge


in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in


Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt


about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly


exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish


authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo


registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010


people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got


to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are


people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own


agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our


country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to


people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say


they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say


again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.


Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we


have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped


in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That


happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An


upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then


total denial by an entire political class is now something that is


happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial


that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not


answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to


admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is


covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by


ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right


parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what


I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain


way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background


of the people living there but rather because of different


socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows


immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish


authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and


after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the


Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual


molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to


think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out


but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum


seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in


last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on


getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do


our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course


on integration and making sure people get a job, and also


on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for


eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big


tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am


grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.


It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat


Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West: Council


leaders vent their anger as the government finally


announces their funding for the next financial year.


When they give us a provisional settlement late and then they give


us a final settlement after we have all set our budgets,


and we have got to set our budgets because of legal reasons,


And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Candy Atherton, Labour


councillor on Cornwall Council, Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston,


By-election drama this week saw Labour lose a seat they've held


since the 1930s and the Ukip leader fail to win a seat seen by many


But neither party leader seems to think the problem could be them.


There is a lot more which will happen, a lot more to come from us.


We are not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere,


so therefore, you know, we move on and our time will come.


Have you at any point this morning looked in the mirror and ask


yourself this question, could the problem actually be me?


An old friend of yours that, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, Candy.


The Copeland by-election, this is the seat you have lost,


that is very, very ominous, isn't it, for Labour's


that is very, very ominous, isn't it, for Labour's future prospects?


I certainly think we will need to look very carefully and reflect


on what the voters in Copeland and in Stoke said and I would


mention that Stoke was widely predicted by the media


that we would not win that but we did, and comfortably,


It's not a traditional Labour seat in the sense


Why is the nuclear industry seat, and possibly slightly,


I've always been slightly surprised it was a long-term Labour seat.


But in terms of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antinuclear stance,


that's not going to play well in places like Plymouth,


seats that Labour has held many times and will need to win back


And that is why there is a big debate going on within the party.


But I would remind you that the media said they would not win


Stoke and actually we have seen off Ukip and I think that is to be


Do you think there should be a fresh question mark over


Jeremy has stood twice, he got a bigger mandate the second time.


I think what everyone needs to do, from the leader to the newest


new member is to reflect on how we can do better, how we can


respond to the electorate and prepare for some


Sarah, obviously celebration for the Conservatives.


Yes, a huge vote of confidence in Theresa May


Some have suggested, though, and looking at the by-elections


we have had recently, there could be a sense


that the Conservatives could be making advances in the Brexit


heartlands of the north but be vulnerable in their traditional


heartlands in the south, to Remain voters.


This was a seat that the Conservatives weren't


expecting to win and I think the circumstances, with Theresa May


putting in a very powerful performance and of course dismal


leadership from Jeremy Corbyn, I think those have come together


Molly, I say obviously we are in very feeble are times


Molly, I say obviously we are in very febrile times


and a lot of parties are looking for potential opportunities,


the Greens, we talked that Ukip going up and down but the Greens


don't seem to be grasping opportunities.


Well, we saw our results decline because we got caught in the usual


squeeze when a lot of focuses on the other parties but don't see


there is much enthusiasm for the Conservatives,


in spite of what Sarah says, and I don't think people have much


confidence in Labour to do any better.


Yes, because what people are doing is trying to make a decision


about who is the person who is likely to win


and who do they like least and I would like to see people


have a chance for voting for what they believe


in and we need a different kind of electoral system.


We need to be responding to the fact that we are in a multiparty


system that and we need to have an electoral system that


reflects that and stop this old game of government and opposition move


towards a multiparty system like most other countries have.


The two principal parties were the ones that one in the election.


The two principal parties were the ones that won in the election.


Because we live in a system that is a majority system so it


tends to help the two main parties but it is leading to


OK, we're going to question the exact system we had a referendum on.


We are moving into a different debate, an interesting


Higher council tax, service cuts and a budget-setting process


described by one of the South West's senior Tories as a shambles.


Apart from that, local government finances have had a great week.


At least councils will have more money to cope with the mounting


The extra care cash is for the adults and the elderly but,


as Anna Varle reports, that's left some concerned


about the impact of the latest spending round on children.


Learning to read and write, something that comes easy to many


but for one in ten of us it is a struggle.


Sophie is one of the lucky ones, she is getting one-to-one help


But help for children with special educational needs


Cornwall Council is looking to make savings, which means that schools


like this one would have to pay more for services to give children


The local authority is cutting children's services by 30% over five


years, which means schools will have to pay for some services which were


I'm very worried that in two years' time our schools won't be solvent,


in order to provide a basic education for every single child,


so I am doubly worried for the children who have special


educational needs and who need additional support but our budgets


The schools are there, they are being asked to do


more and more and more, and there is only so much


So if things don't change and cuts keep being made, you know, I say


Children are going to leave school having not achieved their full


potential and that, to me, it's terrible.


The council says educational psychologists will now have


to prioritise statuary work with schools but Barbara Hewitt Silk


from Cornwall Dyslexia says it is the most vulnerable


who will end up paying the cost of these cuts.


We have all sorts of people who contact our helpline


and who come for advice, who just have fallen


That can be stopped, or should I say it can be


ameliorated earlier on, if we put enough resources


Any cutback in educational psychology is short-sighted.


As well as the millions of pounds of savings local authorities


are having to make to balance the books, Council Tax is set


to rise across the region to pay for social care but there are calls


for some of this money to be spent on children's services.


If we are to call it a social care precept at least allow for some


of it to be spent in children's services because children need


social care, children need hospitals and everything else,


so I don't understand why the government doesn't allow us


to use that 2% where it goes to the most vulnerable and we can do


With no extra money from the government in the funding


settlement council leaders are seriously concerned.


When they give us a provisional settlement late and then they give


us a final settlement after we have all set our budgets and we have


got to set our budgets because of legal reasons,


Councils say they have had little control over this process


and they doubt whether the extra money they are raising


for care of the elderly will keep up with demand.


It's a long time until Sophie needs to worry about that


but could children like her be facing a lifetime of struggling


Sarah, a taste of the big political row behind


all of this from John Hart, in his typically forthright fashion.


What we have seen over the last few weeks is what we seem to see every


year, lots of rural Conservative MPs jumping up and down,


saying it is a disgrace that services in the countryside


are underfunded compared to the urban areas.


Get to the debate and someone stands up saying something vaguely


placatory and everyone voted through anyway.


Well, I didn't add my name to that vote because I feel very strongly


about the issue of social care and I have stayed on that


about the issue of social care and I have abstained on that


because I feel a stronger message needs to doubt that the disparity


between rural and urban areas absolutely needs to be addressed.


But also that I think that 3% in two years running is not significantly


different enough from 2% three years running so I think that


what we absolutely need now in the budget is to have a very


significant uplift for social care because we know that that


The Communities Secretary also talked about a review.


Clearly we know that local government finance will be


Suggesting as part of that process, rural needs will be factored


in to that but might not deliver any significant change.


It is not just about rural, it is about age structure


because we know that the key driver for demand is age


We know it is a good thing and certainly more


of us are living longer, but with that we need to look


at the demand that that places on services that you look


at these structure, the age structure of Devon,


of the country will be in 2030 and so what we must do


is actually tailor the funding to the actual level of need,


and, of course, the rural issue is that the higher cost


of delivering services in rural areas.


Candy, the annual rituals wouldn't have been completed unless we let


some Conservative MPs stand up in the Commons and say this


is all Labour's fault because they shifted a lot of money


unfairly from the countryside towards the cities.


But where are Devon and Cornwall now?


And what are the Devon and Cornwall Tories,


who makes a huge phalanx within the House of Commons,


They are standing up, and fairness to you, you abstained,


but most of them are standing up and saying it is also awful and then


they are going through as lobby fodder and then voting it through,


whether it is education or health, on all the various issues,


policing, you name it, that is what they are doing.


They are a huge force in the House of Commons.


If you worked as Devon and Cornwall and Somerset, Tories,


standing up and saying to the Prime Minister


and to the Chancellor, we are still at the lowest


of the low, get in there and sort it out.


I really resent that as a group, when I was a member of Parliament,


there were only four Labour MPs to stand up for Devon and Cornwall


and we did a far better job than what is happening here.


There was this huge shift to Labour seats of the funding structure


and that has been baked in to a system and what we now need


is a root and branch review that actually tailors this thing


to actual need and of course we need to also look


and factor in disadvantage, that is crucially important,


but the point is that actually delivering need and social care,


the key driver now is age and multi-morbidity


and that is where the review needs to happen.


Clearly we have the Conservatives looking at a complete overhaul


of government finance, self finance in this kind


of thing, what would the Greens prescription be?


Well, I think we need to look at the bigger picture


here because we are looking at a government that has decided


to reduce the funding to local government by 30% and we know


that the most expectant services that people really rely


on are provided by local government and we also know that


the Conservatives decided to reduce tax rates that we have less revenue


coming in and we would be perfectly prepared to increase taxes so that


could fund social care provision properly and I


that the Conservatives have decided to make the most vulnerable,


as you saw in the film there, pay for the problems


in the financial sector, which we are still suffering from.


The Conservatives are looking at councils retaining


all the business rates, largely, I think,


Is that some kind of model that the Greens might look at?


I am not averse to the idea of councils becoming


more entrepreneurial, I think that is quite a good idea,


but I think in order to make this work you have to let local councils


have more control over taxation and to raise more taxes locally


because at the moment they are constantly under the cosh


from central government and you have these rows between local Tories


and National Tories which is actually quite dishonest.


The Treasury is always very resistant to any more


There is not much point in having devolution if you don't have revenue


And there we are touching on another big debate!


The Prime Minister says mental health services have been


But her promise to stop young people being sent out of their local area


for treatment won't come into affect for another four years,


leaving some families in the South West in limbo.


One teenager from St Ives faces being treated outside England


after medical staff called 19 mental health units across the country but


It's a picture of youthful exuberance, but it doesn't


The 17-year-old is currently staying at an NHS unit in Somerset.


To visit her daughter, Mum, Marie, must make a 300 mile round trip


But that journey that could become greater still.


I've been told by CAHMS that they have tried


to contact everyone in England and there is nowhere


for her in England, and that they are looking


to take her out of the country basically to either


But even then they haven't said that there is a unit there or any


help that that is going to be any different to what is


In a speech last month the Prime Minister Theresa May


referred to the burning injustice of inadequate mental health care.


There is no escaping the fact that people with mental health problems


are still not treated the same as if they have a physical ailment.


By 2021 no child will be sent away from the local area to be


treated for a general mental health condition.


The South West has fewer specialist mental health beds for teenagers


than any other part of the country and there are none


Steve Cockburn has been fighting for a children's unit


His son Ben took his own life in an adult unit


What I don't understand is of the ?5 billion that the Tory


government talk about, can we have our five million


for Cornwall, please, so we can have a unit.


She has had to give up her job and has two other younger


They have said, you know, they can notice a difference


in Sasha when I go to see her, and can I come to see her more?


It isn't really possible, and now they are saying that it


It is so much harder for me to go there.


NHS England said it was reviewing its children and adolescent mental


health services to secure a more balanced distribution


A spokesman said it planned to eliminate inappropriate


Molly, I think everybody would accept that if people have


specialist conditions or exotic diseases than you might need to take


them along way from their homes to treat them but it seems


extraordinary that in this kind of incidents it is the only option. Not


only extraordinary, but really quite cruel, because these are people who


cannot cope with the stresses of travelling that distance. It is fine


for the Prime Minister to say she is very concerned as if she has


suddenly discovered this issue but the Conservatives have been in power


for seven years now so if we have a mental health crisis must be


to look for deeper causes of what is to look for deeper causes of what is


going on here because we saw a vulnerable young person that we know


the pressure in schools in testing and competitiveness and so one


encourages mental ill-health in young people and we have people


signing up for benefits are constantly being persecuted in terms


of looking at work and it is this kind of constant stress and pressure


that adds to the crisis. I saw 61 million prescriptions today for


antidepressants, and that is a vast amount of medication and we are just


not tackling the issue as we should. Sarah, I am quite interested in your


perspective as the chair of the health select committee because you


look at the whole range... We looked look at the whole range... We looked


at this specifically. Clearly there are many challenges. There are huge


challenges in children and adolescent mental health challenges


-- services and this has been around for a long time. What came across


from our enquiry was but the best way to help this is to invest in


early intervention because we know that half of mental illness starts


before the age of 15 and if we invest in early intervention the


plan is to try and not have children to a point when they are so unwell


that they need an admission of the first place and there are many


things that you can do in terms of assertive outreach and that has been


happening across Devon so it is an improving picture across Devon.


that we have just heard but I cannot that we have just heard but I cannot


comment on that but I don't have the circumstances but clearly we would


like children to be able to be cared for if they do need inpatient care


close to home. There have been things where we have seen genuine


progress such as the use of cells to detain children and young people,


that is unacceptable for any age of course, but particularly


unacceptable in children that is a the Theresa May has taken action on


and it is something that is now coming to an end. What about the


causes of ill health, the stresses the pressure, much more efficient to


deal with that long wait for the ill-health. I absolutely agree and


the health select committee is now together with the education select


committee we are starting a joint enquiry looking at how, what the bed


in the last enquiry was that most young people we spoke to wanted to


be seen in the context of the education system and yet teachers


feel ill equipped to actually deal with this. We know there is a rising


tide of problems and it is a shame that Labour towards the end of their


time in power cancelled the survey that was done. Candy has been keen


to get in. There are a huge number of pitches are lots that needs to be


done. Investment is starting to go now into children's services but


what we need to see is that it gets to the front line. Candy. The


issuing Liz that many children have been helped by the charity for Steve


Coburn to help their parents get around to visit them all around the


country and yet there is land that is available for a specialist centre


for young people in Cornwall to be residential, not carted off to


Edinburgh or all points north and south and west. In two years the


cost of the NHS would be recouped by the cost of us sending them out of


counting. I really say a challenge to the NHS in corbel, you have to


get on with this. It is absolutely cruel that young people are being


do it within two years. The do it within two years. The


financial envelope is there so we should get on with it. OK, we have


to get on with the programme but to get on with the programme but


thank you very much. Now our regular round-up


of the political week in 60 seconds. Students demonstrated


against fascism in Exeter after a swastika was scratched


into a door of the University. The Vice Chancellor also


condemned the vandalism. The trouble is it doesn't


fit with the character Those who want to see


Plymouth airport reopen are The City Council's new plan cuts


the time available before the site We believe there is no need


to develop Plymouth airport There is sufficient land


in the Plymouth area to meet Publicans say they are concerned


about big rises to business rates. One South Devon pub


is claiming their bill The government says


increases are capped. And Bodmin Moor is hoping to follow


Exmoor to get special Sarah, on the business rates issue,


I was a bit confused this week. There was a suggestion I would


and then the Prime Minister 's and then the Prime Minister 's


spokesman suggested that maybe not. I was in the chamber when Sergei


Javi Guerra that statement and it was very clear to those of us


sitting there that it sounded that something was going to be coming


forward for our high streets because in my constituency the high streets,


there are businesses there that will there are businesses there that will


see their rates increase increasingly even though for most of


the country it is good news picture so I am hoping that we will see


something in the budget. Candy, this is a familiar picture. Isn't it? I


imagine there will be a review and because the business rates are going


to local authorities my best bet is that the local authorities will end


up taking it and it is quite wrong that the government is allowing


Amazon to get away with it while our local high streets are getting head.


Totally with Candy, that is what I do with European Parliament, tried


to stop big corporations avoiding tax at the Independence cannot


compete. The trouble is they are based on rents are we need a review


of the system. Shift the tax towards the companies in the virtual space.


The system needs to be reviewed. Were ending on consensus, a


different kind of politics! We did agree slightly.


That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.


Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain


leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way


through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an


intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.


Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is


going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll


tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,


that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't


think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and


Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion


led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already


moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how


much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating


that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of


the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week


on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind


of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring


that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords


with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of


it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a


large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the


Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as


soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on


Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and


peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has


all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in


place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and


the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them


already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they


were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they


won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The


question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The


Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,


but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in


the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May


because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in


Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when


they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain


and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the


moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional


propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me


the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of


democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to


cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.


Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the


Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and


have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the


timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,


Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting


that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party


but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the


most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this


point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her


timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel


Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small


group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is


the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple


of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the


President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather


close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is


now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.


Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not


only close to the president but to a series of people within the


administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to


keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into


that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can


feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of


negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and


what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over


later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into


what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about


our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among


some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast


with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet


ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and


we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind


of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and


that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no


doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing


the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it


through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the


president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically


rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is


his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is


one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it


isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said


for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just


look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor


there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to


go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which


has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a


serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more


money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems


there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people


argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit


but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.


And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and


the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and


months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will


have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to


the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was


remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If


he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or


another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she


is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of


the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.


Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,


magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are


that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,


rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to


throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of


this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to


find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.


I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim


settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but


they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in


the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens


promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,


he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more


important because that is when people will feel the cost living


squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon


on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at


the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics.


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