26/02/2017 Sunday Politics South West


26/02/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:40.:00:45.

Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,

:00:46.:00:45.

not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.

:00:46.:00:48.

But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,

:00:49.:00:49.

the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.

:00:50.:00:51.

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,

:00:52.:00:53.

but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party

:00:54.:00:56.

The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.

:00:57.:01:06.

You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!

:01:07.:01:11.

And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact

:01:12.:01:14.

of migration on Sweden, but after riots in Stockholm this

:01:15.:01:16.

In the South West: The mentally ill teenagers demanding politicians

:01:17.:01:19.

And children's services facing spending cuts

:01:20.:01:26.

In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local

:01:27.:01:30.

authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?

:01:31.:01:36.

And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased

:01:37.:01:39.

to say have so far not been banned from the White House.

:01:40.:01:47.

I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,

:01:48.:01:51.

but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,

:01:52.:01:54.

We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last

:01:55.:02:05.

Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe

:02:06.:02:09.

British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it

:02:10.:02:13.

may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is

:02:14.:02:18.

difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a

:02:19.:02:23.

credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the

:02:24.:02:28.

campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin

:02:29.:02:32.

with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but

:02:33.:02:36.

they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's

:02:37.:02:40.

hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems

:02:41.:02:44.

they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If

:02:45.:02:50.

Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at

:02:51.:02:57.

the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind

:02:58.:03:02.

despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never

:03:03.:03:06.

more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's

:03:07.:03:10.

the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she

:03:11.:03:16.

faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher

:03:17.:03:21.

who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked

:03:22.:03:25.

like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up

:03:26.:03:31.

to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite

:03:32.:03:38.

often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK

:03:39.:03:43.

opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her

:03:44.:03:47.

agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips

:03:48.:03:51.

with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be

:03:52.:03:57.

for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both

:03:58.:04:02.

strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and

:04:03.:04:06.

very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more

:04:07.:04:11.

dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go

:04:12.:04:16.

wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think

:04:17.:04:19.

through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority

:04:20.:04:24.

of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put

:04:25.:04:27.

under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the

:04:28.:04:31.

two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or

:04:32.:04:38.

the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to

:04:39.:04:41.

operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party

:04:42.:04:46.

to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be

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disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that

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would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip

:04:54.:04:59.

coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the

:05:00.:05:03.

moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures

:05:04.:05:10.

might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite

:05:11.:05:13.

anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press

:05:14.:05:16.

ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a

:05:17.:05:22.

slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of

:05:23.:05:26.

transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people

:05:27.:05:30.

happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground

:05:31.:05:34.

and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in

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which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for

:05:40.:05:42.

today. Thursday was a big night

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for political obsessives like us, with not one but two

:05:45.:05:46.

significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain

:05:47.:05:50.

to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,

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the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just

:05:59.:06:03.

a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent

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were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall

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on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon

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is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning

:06:15.:06:20.

strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved

:06:21.:06:23.

to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result

:06:24.:06:25.

in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away

:06:26.:06:28.

in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another

:06:29.:06:32.

Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both

:06:33.:06:36.

places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal

:06:37.:06:44.

by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,

:06:45.:06:47.

Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,

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winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,

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where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it

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onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare

:06:55.:06:58.

that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory

:06:59.:07:02.

here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader

:07:03.:07:10.

played down the defeat, insisting his party's

:07:11.:07:16.

time would come. Are you going to stand again

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as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,

:07:20.:07:25.

don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat

:07:26.:07:28.

the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this

:07:29.:07:37.

weekend who have got But a few minutes later,

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it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,

:07:41.:07:46.

the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000

:07:47.:07:49.

votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight

:07:50.:08:01.

is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,

:08:02.:08:05.

but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18

:08:06.:08:07.

points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes

:08:08.:08:19.

I think is an incredible The morning after the night

:08:20.:08:23.

before, the losing parties were licking their wounds

:08:24.:08:27.

and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,

:08:28.:08:31.

Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,

:08:32.:08:35.

that era has gone. It's a new era, it is

:08:36.:08:41.

a second age for us. So that needs to be

:08:42.:08:44.

more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,

:08:45.:08:49.

you know, and that will We have to continue to improve

:08:50.:08:51.

in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,

:08:52.:09:00.

we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,

:09:01.:09:03.

is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come

:09:04.:09:05.

here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP

:09:06.:09:10.

for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived

:09:11.:09:13.

in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to

:09:14.:09:16.

Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour

:09:17.:09:21.

leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some

:09:22.:09:25.

theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost

:09:26.:09:27.

a seat to a governing party for the first time

:09:28.:09:33.

since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning

:09:34.:09:36.

looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -

:09:37.:09:40.

could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives

:09:41.:09:44.

who came out on top. No governing party has made

:09:45.:09:52.

a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army

:09:53.:09:54.

of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out

:09:55.:10:00.

here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain

:10:01.:10:05.

on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in

:10:06.:10:16.

Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring

:10:17.:10:19.

conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson

:10:20.:10:21.

warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat

:10:22.:10:26.

seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated

:10:27.:10:28.

south of the border. Well, I'm joined now

:10:29.:10:31.

by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost

:10:32.:10:47.

Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the

:10:48.:10:51.

UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would

:10:52.:10:56.

absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to

:10:57.:11:03.

support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing

:11:04.:11:06.

for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for

:11:07.:11:09.

everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn

:11:10.:11:13.

around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do

:11:14.:11:16.

while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we

:11:17.:11:23.

were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working

:11:24.:11:27.

class communities across the country, but we listened very hard

:11:28.:11:31.

to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm

:11:32.:11:35.

committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is

:11:36.:11:41.

committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in

:11:42.:11:46.

Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even

:11:47.:11:52.

Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will

:11:53.:11:58.

try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general

:11:59.:12:02.

election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm

:12:03.:12:06.

the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for

:12:07.:12:10.

our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish

:12:11.:12:13.

Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we

:12:14.:12:17.

stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity

:12:18.:12:21.

platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and

:12:22.:12:25.

invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also

:12:26.:12:28.

supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to

:12:29.:12:35.

a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together

:12:36.:12:38.

by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the

:12:39.:12:44.

federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that

:12:45.:12:47.

ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional

:12:48.:12:51.

Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party

:12:52.:12:58.

and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will

:12:59.:13:04.

take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party

:13:05.:13:08.

can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide

:13:09.:13:13.

Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.

:13:14.:13:19.

Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to

:13:20.:13:26.

carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level

:13:27.:13:30.

is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to

:13:31.:13:33.

prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not

:13:34.:13:37.

to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the

:13:38.:13:42.

point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say

:13:43.:13:47.

there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it

:13:48.:13:50.

and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of

:13:51.:13:54.

this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that

:13:55.:14:00.

happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder

:14:01.:14:04.

people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What

:14:05.:14:07.

evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an

:14:08.:14:13.

English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal

:14:14.:14:18.

regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell

:14:19.:14:21.

you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that

:14:22.:14:27.

here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.

:14:28.:14:31.

What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast

:14:32.:14:35.

that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the

:14:36.:14:38.

north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that

:14:39.:14:43.

Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel

:14:44.:14:46.

remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being

:14:47.:14:50.

exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in

:14:51.:14:53.

because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways

:14:54.:14:58.

it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is

:14:59.:15:06.

leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation

:15:07.:15:09.

of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers

:15:10.:15:12.

to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English

:15:13.:15:14.

context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the

:15:15.:15:18.

English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,

:15:19.:15:19.

correct? It is absolutely the policy of the

:15:20.:15:29.

UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention

:15:30.:15:33.

to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're

:15:34.:15:38.

promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not

:15:39.:15:42.

even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is

:15:43.:15:47.

not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to

:15:48.:15:50.

Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.

:15:51.:15:55.

United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not

:15:56.:15:59.

united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power

:16:00.:16:04.

in this country. It is not united on that

:16:05.:16:27.

issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard

:16:28.:16:31.

yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people

:16:32.:16:33.

like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local

:16:34.:16:36.

Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.

:16:37.:16:38.

Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the

:16:39.:16:40.

whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a

:16:41.:16:42.

conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come

:16:43.:16:45.

onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He

:16:46.:16:47.

wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish

:16:48.:16:50.

nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance

:16:51.:16:53.

yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear

:16:54.:16:58.

yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was

:16:59.:17:02.

saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people

:17:03.:17:07.

and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up

:17:08.:17:11.

living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is

:17:12.:17:15.

forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,

:17:16.:17:21.

it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the

:17:22.:17:25.

consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing

:17:26.:17:30.

under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with

:17:31.:17:44.

ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He

:17:45.:17:48.

said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last

:17:49.:17:51.

minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and

:17:52.:17:53.

reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish

:17:54.:17:55.

nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that

:17:56.:17:59.

even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of

:18:00.:18:03.

nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it

:18:04.:18:11.

is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.

:18:12.:18:15.

Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly

:18:16.:18:19.

refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the

:18:20.:18:25.

SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did

:18:26.:18:31.

not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is

:18:32.:18:35.

divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.

:18:36.:18:39.

Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in

:18:40.:18:45.

Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence

:18:46.:18:50.

question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want

:18:51.:18:53.

to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and

:18:54.:18:59.

no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers

:19:00.:19:03.

lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,

:19:04.:19:07.

your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he

:19:08.:19:12.

referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --

:19:13.:19:20.

and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive

:19:21.:19:24.

politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we

:19:25.:19:28.

are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from

:19:29.:19:32.

saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That

:19:33.:19:36.

is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really

:19:37.:19:41.

struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about

:19:42.:19:47.

being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear

:19:48.:19:53.

that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the

:19:54.:19:57.

length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is

:19:58.:20:01.

what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back

:20:02.:20:05.

together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'

:20:06.:20:09.

time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for

:20:10.:20:11.

joining us. Thursday's win for Labour

:20:12.:20:12.

in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,

:20:13.:20:14.

but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall

:20:15.:20:17.

there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's

:20:18.:20:19.

principal political Welcome to the programme. Good

:20:20.:20:29.

morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,

:20:30.:20:33.

months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip

:20:34.:20:39.

was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting

:20:40.:20:44.

Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of

:20:45.:20:47.

Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to

:20:48.:20:51.

make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in

:20:52.:20:57.

Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.

:20:58.:21:04.

We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment

:21:05.:21:08.

that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.

:21:09.:21:13.

Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.

:21:14.:21:18.

A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out

:21:19.:21:23.

publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of

:21:24.:21:27.

Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt

:21:28.:21:32.

about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well

:21:33.:21:34.

the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of

:21:35.:21:51.

Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are

:21:52.:21:53.

passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the

:21:54.:21:56.

most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What

:21:57.:21:58.

would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul

:21:59.:22:00.

Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic

:22:01.:22:04.

cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip

:22:05.:22:10.

supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was

:22:11.:22:16.

marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip

:22:17.:22:23.

to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning

:22:24.:22:28.

what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is

:22:29.:22:31.

counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more

:22:32.:22:37.

difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a

:22:38.:22:42.

Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against

:22:43.:22:47.

triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the

:22:48.:22:51.

Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It

:22:52.:22:53.

comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.

:22:54.:23:10.

You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,

:23:11.:23:12.

they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning

:23:13.:23:15.

Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso

:23:16.:23:17.

labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,

:23:18.:23:19.

it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a

:23:20.:23:22.

future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

:23:23.:23:27.

Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not

:23:28.:23:31.

recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around

:23:32.:23:35.

campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We

:23:36.:23:39.

believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working

:23:40.:23:42.

class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in

:23:43.:23:49.

Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable

:23:50.:23:54.

to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social

:23:55.:24:00.

solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation

:24:01.:24:03.

and community. We want an immigration system that is not only

:24:04.:24:08.

reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a

:24:09.:24:12.

whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When

:24:13.:24:17.

Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he

:24:18.:24:23.

was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It

:24:24.:24:30.

would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of

:24:31.:24:33.

Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions

:24:34.:24:37.

and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will

:24:38.:24:40.

fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true

:24:41.:24:44.

that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote

:24:45.:24:48.

might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and

:24:49.:24:53.

disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,

:24:54.:24:57.

Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant

:24:58.:25:02.

tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on

:25:03.:25:07.

immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the

:25:08.:25:11.

spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech

:25:12.:25:15.

before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the

:25:16.:25:22.

result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to

:25:23.:25:28.

set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you

:25:29.:25:32.

have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,

:25:33.:25:38.

do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and

:25:39.:25:43.

freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is

:25:44.:25:46.

certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,

:25:47.:25:51.

particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing

:25:52.:25:56.

to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.

:25:57.:25:59.

If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps

:26:00.:26:05.

to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the

:26:06.:26:10.

Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil

:26:11.:26:13.

Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As

:26:14.:26:19.

far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party

:26:20.:26:23.

formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He

:26:24.:26:27.

says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.

:26:28.:26:31.

He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What

:26:32.:26:37.

do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many

:26:38.:26:40.

months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas

:26:41.:26:45.

Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi

:26:46.:26:49.

chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the

:26:50.:26:56.

moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth

:26:57.:27:01.

running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I

:27:02.:27:04.

understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip

:27:05.:27:09.

if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.

:27:10.:27:14.

Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and

:27:15.:27:17.

support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate

:27:18.:27:22.

and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,

:27:23.:27:27.

people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the

:27:28.:27:30.

party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You

:27:31.:27:35.

have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it

:27:36.:27:40.

could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too

:27:41.:27:45.

optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'

:27:46.:27:49.

time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the

:27:50.:27:54.

guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a

:27:55.:27:59.

little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get

:28:00.:28:03.

seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will

:28:04.:28:08.

of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a

:28:09.:28:11.

magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.

:28:12.:28:13.

Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often

:28:14.:28:14.

should because this week it was pulled into

:28:15.:28:18.

the global spotlight, thanks

:28:19.:28:19.

Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that

:28:20.:28:28.

had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open

:28:29.:28:31.

Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred

:28:32.:28:35.

and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking

:28:36.:28:38.

about a report he had watched on Fox News.

:28:39.:28:41.

But as if to prove he was onto something,

:28:42.:28:43.

next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb

:28:44.:28:46.

with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas

:28:47.:28:48.

So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?

:28:49.:28:58.

In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second

:28:59.:29:01.

That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced

:29:02.:29:07.

border restrictions and stopped offering permanent

:29:08.:29:09.

Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,

:29:10.:29:17.

although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven

:29:18.:29:20.

Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants

:29:21.:29:28.

have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.

:29:29.:29:31.

Although the country does have the highest reported

:29:32.:29:33.

rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises

:29:34.:29:36.

were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.

:29:37.:29:41.

Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled

:29:42.:29:43.

Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes

:29:44.:29:49.

Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers

:29:50.:29:52.

We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the

:29:53.:30:05.

governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and

:30:06.:30:07.

The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,

:30:08.:30:23.

pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later

:30:24.:30:27.

serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm

:30:28.:30:32.

so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is

:30:33.:30:36.

misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is

:30:37.:30:41.

important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for

:30:42.:30:45.

the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate

:30:46.:30:49.

that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social

:30:50.:30:57.

unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical

:30:58.:31:01.

backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic

:31:02.:31:08.

reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of

:31:09.:31:12.

crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo

:31:13.:31:19.

attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that

:31:20.:31:24.

was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox

:31:25.:31:28.

News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that

:31:29.:31:33.

because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish

:31:34.:31:38.

authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant

:31:39.:31:43.

to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly

:31:44.:31:46.

the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides

:31:47.:31:52.

because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force

:31:53.:31:58.

which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of

:31:59.:32:03.

evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the

:32:04.:32:07.

rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the

:32:08.:32:11.

rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar

:32:12.:32:15.

forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian

:32:16.:32:19.

authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity

:32:20.:32:25.

so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of

:32:26.:32:31.

lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is

:32:32.:32:36.

difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many

:32:37.:32:41.

crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault

:32:42.:32:46.

are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman

:32:47.:32:51.

goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped

:32:52.:32:59.

her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as

:33:00.:33:04.

365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news

:33:05.:33:09.

from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the

:33:10.:33:12.

last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times

:33:13.:33:19.

higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo

:33:20.:33:25.

where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.

:33:26.:33:28.

Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now

:33:29.:33:32.

dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what

:33:33.:33:39.

I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for

:33:40.:33:44.

people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is

:33:45.:33:48.

a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we

:33:49.:33:53.

want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to

:33:54.:33:57.

receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because

:33:58.:34:03.

having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I

:34:04.:34:06.

think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at

:34:07.:34:12.

one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed

:34:13.:34:17.

that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it

:34:18.:34:20.

sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.

:34:21.:34:27.

Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do

:34:28.:34:30.

everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other

:34:31.:34:34.

countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you

:34:35.:34:38.

look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country

:34:39.:34:42.

they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live

:34:43.:34:46.

in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start

:34:47.:34:55.

enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The

:34:56.:35:01.

unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than

:35:02.:35:06.

non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and

:35:07.:35:10.

the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have

:35:11.:35:16.

brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do

:35:17.:35:20.

much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration

:35:21.:35:24.

that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated

:35:25.:35:29.

and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and

:35:30.:35:31.

working in different fields of society, and they help our country.

:35:32.:35:39.

Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes

:35:40.:35:46.

time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I

:35:47.:35:51.

put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a

:35:52.:35:54.

result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad

:35:55.:35:59.

as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can

:36:00.:36:03.

put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of

:36:04.:36:08.

these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.

:36:09.:36:15.

Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,

:36:16.:36:20.

they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees

:36:21.:36:25.

into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for

:36:26.:36:29.

the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge

:36:30.:36:33.

in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in

:36:34.:36:39.

Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt

:36:40.:36:43.

about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly

:36:44.:36:46.

exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish

:36:47.:36:52.

authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo

:36:53.:37:02.

registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010

:37:03.:37:12.

people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got

:37:13.:37:16.

to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are

:37:17.:37:23.

people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own

:37:24.:37:27.

agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our

:37:28.:37:33.

country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to

:37:34.:37:37.

people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say

:37:38.:37:41.

they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say

:37:42.:37:45.

again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.

:37:46.:37:50.

Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we

:37:51.:37:55.

have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped

:37:56.:38:00.

in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That

:38:01.:38:04.

happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An

:38:05.:38:08.

upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then

:38:09.:38:12.

total denial by an entire political class is now something that is

:38:13.:38:16.

happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial

:38:17.:38:20.

that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not

:38:21.:38:25.

answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to

:38:26.:38:32.

admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is

:38:33.:38:39.

covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by

:38:40.:38:43.

ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right

:38:44.:38:49.

parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what

:38:50.:38:52.

I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain

:38:53.:38:56.

way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background

:38:57.:39:00.

of the people living there but rather because of different

:39:01.:39:04.

socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows

:39:05.:39:10.

immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish

:39:11.:39:13.

authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and

:39:14.:39:17.

after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the

:39:18.:39:21.

Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual

:39:22.:39:25.

molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to

:39:26.:39:31.

think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out

:39:32.:39:36.

but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum

:39:37.:39:41.

seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in

:39:42.:39:46.

last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on

:39:47.:39:51.

getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do

:39:52.:39:55.

our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course

:39:56.:39:58.

on integration and making sure people get a job, and also

:39:59.:40:12.

on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for

:40:13.:40:15.

eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big

:40:16.:40:17.

tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am

:40:18.:40:21.

grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.

:40:22.:40:22.

It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:40:23.:40:25.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:40:26.:40:27.

the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat

:40:28.:40:33.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West: Council

:40:34.:40:48.

leaders vent their anger as the government finally

:40:49.:40:50.

announces their funding for the next financial year.

:40:51.:40:58.

When they give us a provisional settlement late and then they give

:40:59.:41:01.

us a final settlement after we have all set our budgets,

:41:02.:41:04.

and we have got to set our budgets because of legal reasons,

:41:05.:41:06.

And for the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Candy Atherton, Labour

:41:07.:41:10.

councillor on Cornwall Council, Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston,

:41:11.:41:13.

By-election drama this week saw Labour lose a seat they've held

:41:14.:41:24.

since the 1930s and the Ukip leader fail to win a seat seen by many

:41:25.:41:28.

But neither party leader seems to think the problem could be them.

:41:29.:41:33.

There is a lot more which will happen, a lot more to come from us.

:41:34.:41:36.

We are not going anywhere, I'm not going anywhere,

:41:37.:41:38.

so therefore, you know, we move on and our time will come.

:41:39.:41:43.

Have you at any point this morning looked in the mirror and ask

:41:44.:41:46.

yourself this question, could the problem actually be me?

:41:47.:41:49.

An old friend of yours that, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, Candy.

:41:50.:42:07.

The Copeland by-election, this is the seat you have lost,

:42:08.:42:10.

that is very, very ominous, isn't it, for Labour's

:42:11.:42:13.

that is very, very ominous, isn't it, for Labour's future prospects?

:42:14.:42:17.

I certainly think we will need to look very carefully and reflect

:42:18.:42:21.

on what the voters in Copeland and in Stoke said and I would

:42:22.:42:25.

mention that Stoke was widely predicted by the media

:42:26.:42:27.

that we would not win that but we did, and comfortably,

:42:28.:42:29.

It's not a traditional Labour seat in the sense

:42:30.:42:33.

Why is the nuclear industry seat, and possibly slightly,

:42:34.:42:49.

I've always been slightly surprised it was a long-term Labour seat.

:42:50.:42:52.

But in terms of Jeremy Corbyn's personal antinuclear stance,

:42:53.:42:54.

that's not going to play well in places like Plymouth,

:42:55.:42:56.

seats that Labour has held many times and will need to win back

:42:57.:42:59.

And that is why there is a big debate going on within the party.

:43:00.:43:04.

But I would remind you that the media said they would not win

:43:05.:43:07.

Stoke and actually we have seen off Ukip and I think that is to be

:43:08.:43:10.

Do you think there should be a fresh question mark over

:43:11.:43:14.

Jeremy has stood twice, he got a bigger mandate the second time.

:43:15.:43:19.

I think what everyone needs to do, from the leader to the newest

:43:20.:43:23.

new member is to reflect on how we can do better, how we can

:43:24.:43:26.

respond to the electorate and prepare for some

:43:27.:43:28.

Sarah, obviously celebration for the Conservatives.

:43:29.:43:30.

Yes, a huge vote of confidence in Theresa May

:43:31.:43:32.

Some have suggested, though, and looking at the by-elections

:43:33.:43:36.

we have had recently, there could be a sense

:43:37.:43:38.

that the Conservatives could be making advances in the Brexit

:43:39.:43:40.

heartlands of the north but be vulnerable in their traditional

:43:41.:43:44.

heartlands in the south, to Remain voters.

:43:45.:43:47.

This was a seat that the Conservatives weren't

:43:48.:44:03.

expecting to win and I think the circumstances, with Theresa May

:44:04.:44:06.

putting in a very powerful performance and of course dismal

:44:07.:44:08.

leadership from Jeremy Corbyn, I think those have come together

:44:09.:44:11.

Molly, I say obviously we are in very feeble are times

:44:12.:44:16.

Molly, I say obviously we are in very febrile times

:44:17.:44:19.

and a lot of parties are looking for potential opportunities,

:44:20.:44:21.

the Greens, we talked that Ukip going up and down but the Greens

:44:22.:44:24.

don't seem to be grasping opportunities.

:44:25.:44:26.

Well, we saw our results decline because we got caught in the usual

:44:27.:44:30.

squeeze when a lot of focuses on the other parties but don't see

:44:31.:44:33.

there is much enthusiasm for the Conservatives,

:44:34.:44:35.

in spite of what Sarah says, and I don't think people have much

:44:36.:44:38.

confidence in Labour to do any better.

:44:39.:44:40.

Yes, because what people are doing is trying to make a decision

:44:41.:44:44.

about who is the person who is likely to win

:44:45.:44:47.

and who do they like least and I would like to see people

:44:48.:44:50.

have a chance for voting for what they believe

:44:51.:44:52.

in and we need a different kind of electoral system.

:44:53.:44:55.

We need to be responding to the fact that we are in a multiparty

:44:56.:44:58.

system that and we need to have an electoral system that

:44:59.:45:01.

reflects that and stop this old game of government and opposition move

:45:02.:45:04.

towards a multiparty system like most other countries have.

:45:05.:45:06.

The two principal parties were the ones that one in the election.

:45:07.:45:09.

The two principal parties were the ones that won in the election.

:45:10.:45:12.

Because we live in a system that is a majority system so it

:45:13.:45:15.

tends to help the two main parties but it is leading to

:45:16.:45:18.

OK, we're going to question the exact system we had a referendum on.

:45:19.:45:22.

We are moving into a different debate, an interesting

:45:23.:45:25.

Higher council tax, service cuts and a budget-setting process

:45:26.:45:28.

described by one of the South West's senior Tories as a shambles.

:45:29.:45:32.

Apart from that, local government finances have had a great week.

:45:33.:45:34.

At least councils will have more money to cope with the mounting

:45:35.:45:37.

The extra care cash is for the adults and the elderly but,

:45:38.:45:41.

as Anna Varle reports, that's left some concerned

:45:42.:45:43.

about the impact of the latest spending round on children.

:45:44.:45:45.

Learning to read and write, something that comes easy to many

:45:46.:45:54.

but for one in ten of us it is a struggle.

:45:55.:45:57.

Sophie is one of the lucky ones, she is getting one-to-one help

:45:58.:46:06.

But help for children with special educational needs

:46:07.:46:12.

Cornwall Council is looking to make savings, which means that schools

:46:13.:46:21.

like this one would have to pay more for services to give children

:46:22.:46:24.

The local authority is cutting children's services by 30% over five

:46:25.:46:30.

years, which means schools will have to pay for some services which were

:46:31.:46:35.

I'm very worried that in two years' time our schools won't be solvent,

:46:36.:46:40.

in order to provide a basic education for every single child,

:46:41.:46:44.

so I am doubly worried for the children who have special

:46:45.:46:50.

educational needs and who need additional support but our budgets

:46:51.:46:53.

The schools are there, they are being asked to do

:46:54.:47:00.

more and more and more, and there is only so much

:47:01.:47:02.

So if things don't change and cuts keep being made, you know, I say

:47:03.:47:11.

Children are going to leave school having not achieved their full

:47:12.:47:15.

potential and that, to me, it's terrible.

:47:16.:47:19.

The council says educational psychologists will now have

:47:20.:47:21.

to prioritise statuary work with schools but Barbara Hewitt Silk

:47:22.:47:26.

from Cornwall Dyslexia says it is the most vulnerable

:47:27.:47:28.

who will end up paying the cost of these cuts.

:47:29.:47:32.

We have all sorts of people who contact our helpline

:47:33.:47:36.

and who come for advice, who just have fallen

:47:37.:47:39.

That can be stopped, or should I say it can be

:47:40.:47:45.

ameliorated earlier on, if we put enough resources

:47:46.:47:49.

Any cutback in educational psychology is short-sighted.

:47:50.:47:55.

As well as the millions of pounds of savings local authorities

:47:56.:47:58.

are having to make to balance the books, Council Tax is set

:47:59.:48:02.

to rise across the region to pay for social care but there are calls

:48:03.:48:07.

for some of this money to be spent on children's services.

:48:08.:48:10.

If we are to call it a social care precept at least allow for some

:48:11.:48:14.

of it to be spent in children's services because children need

:48:15.:48:18.

social care, children need hospitals and everything else,

:48:19.:48:22.

so I don't understand why the government doesn't allow us

:48:23.:48:24.

to use that 2% where it goes to the most vulnerable and we can do

:48:25.:48:27.

With no extra money from the government in the funding

:48:28.:48:33.

settlement council leaders are seriously concerned.

:48:34.:48:42.

When they give us a provisional settlement late and then they give

:48:43.:48:45.

us a final settlement after we have all set our budgets and we have

:48:46.:48:48.

got to set our budgets because of legal reasons,

:48:49.:48:51.

Councils say they have had little control over this process

:48:52.:48:54.

and they doubt whether the extra money they are raising

:48:55.:48:57.

for care of the elderly will keep up with demand.

:48:58.:49:02.

It's a long time until Sophie needs to worry about that

:49:03.:49:05.

but could children like her be facing a lifetime of struggling

:49:06.:49:08.

Sarah, a taste of the big political row behind

:49:09.:49:19.

all of this from John Hart, in his typically forthright fashion.

:49:20.:49:26.

What we have seen over the last few weeks is what we seem to see every

:49:27.:49:30.

year, lots of rural Conservative MPs jumping up and down,

:49:31.:49:32.

saying it is a disgrace that services in the countryside

:49:33.:49:34.

are underfunded compared to the urban areas.

:49:35.:49:36.

Get to the debate and someone stands up saying something vaguely

:49:37.:49:41.

placatory and everyone voted through anyway.

:49:42.:49:48.

Well, I didn't add my name to that vote because I feel very strongly

:49:49.:49:51.

about the issue of social care and I have stayed on that

:49:52.:49:56.

about the issue of social care and I have abstained on that

:49:57.:49:59.

because I feel a stronger message needs to doubt that the disparity

:50:00.:50:02.

between rural and urban areas absolutely needs to be addressed.

:50:03.:50:04.

But also that I think that 3% in two years running is not significantly

:50:05.:50:08.

different enough from 2% three years running so I think that

:50:09.:50:10.

what we absolutely need now in the budget is to have a very

:50:11.:50:13.

significant uplift for social care because we know that that

:50:14.:50:16.

The Communities Secretary also talked about a review.

:50:17.:50:19.

Clearly we know that local government finance will be

:50:20.:50:21.

Suggesting as part of that process, rural needs will be factored

:50:22.:50:25.

in to that but might not deliver any significant change.

:50:26.:50:27.

It is not just about rural, it is about age structure

:50:28.:50:32.

because we know that the key driver for demand is age

:50:33.:50:35.

We know it is a good thing and certainly more

:50:36.:50:44.

of us are living longer, but with that we need to look

:50:45.:50:47.

at the demand that that places on services that you look

:50:48.:50:50.

at these structure, the age structure of Devon,

:50:51.:50:52.

of the country will be in 2030 and so what we must do

:50:53.:50:56.

is actually tailor the funding to the actual level of need,

:50:57.:50:59.

and, of course, the rural issue is that the higher cost

:51:00.:51:01.

of delivering services in rural areas.

:51:02.:51:03.

Candy, the annual rituals wouldn't have been completed unless we let

:51:04.:51:05.

some Conservative MPs stand up in the Commons and say this

:51:06.:51:08.

is all Labour's fault because they shifted a lot of money

:51:09.:51:11.

unfairly from the countryside towards the cities.

:51:12.:51:13.

But where are Devon and Cornwall now?

:51:14.:51:15.

And what are the Devon and Cornwall Tories,

:51:16.:51:19.

who makes a huge phalanx within the House of Commons,

:51:20.:51:21.

They are standing up, and fairness to you, you abstained,

:51:22.:51:25.

but most of them are standing up and saying it is also awful and then

:51:26.:51:28.

they are going through as lobby fodder and then voting it through,

:51:29.:51:34.

whether it is education or health, on all the various issues,

:51:35.:51:36.

policing, you name it, that is what they are doing.

:51:37.:51:41.

They are a huge force in the House of Commons.

:51:42.:51:43.

If you worked as Devon and Cornwall and Somerset, Tories,

:51:44.:51:47.

standing up and saying to the Prime Minister

:51:48.:51:49.

and to the Chancellor, we are still at the lowest

:51:50.:51:51.

of the low, get in there and sort it out.

:51:52.:51:54.

I really resent that as a group, when I was a member of Parliament,

:51:55.:52:00.

there were only four Labour MPs to stand up for Devon and Cornwall

:52:01.:52:05.

and we did a far better job than what is happening here.

:52:06.:52:08.

There was this huge shift to Labour seats of the funding structure

:52:09.:52:15.

and that has been baked in to a system and what we now need

:52:16.:52:18.

is a root and branch review that actually tailors this thing

:52:19.:52:21.

to actual need and of course we need to also look

:52:22.:52:24.

and factor in disadvantage, that is crucially important,

:52:25.:52:33.

but the point is that actually delivering need and social care,

:52:34.:52:36.

the key driver now is age and multi-morbidity

:52:37.:52:38.

and that is where the review needs to happen.

:52:39.:52:40.

Clearly we have the Conservatives looking at a complete overhaul

:52:41.:52:42.

of government finance, self finance in this kind

:52:43.:52:45.

of thing, what would the Greens prescription be?

:52:46.:52:50.

Well, I think we need to look at the bigger picture

:52:51.:52:53.

here because we are looking at a government that has decided

:52:54.:52:55.

to reduce the funding to local government by 30% and we know

:52:56.:52:59.

that the most expectant services that people really rely

:53:00.:53:04.

on are provided by local government and we also know that

:53:05.:53:07.

the Conservatives decided to reduce tax rates that we have less revenue

:53:08.:53:10.

coming in and we would be perfectly prepared to increase taxes so that

:53:11.:53:17.

could fund social care provision properly and I

:53:18.:53:19.

that the Conservatives have decided to make the most vulnerable,

:53:20.:53:22.

as you saw in the film there, pay for the problems

:53:23.:53:25.

in the financial sector, which we are still suffering from.

:53:26.:53:27.

The Conservatives are looking at councils retaining

:53:28.:53:29.

all the business rates, largely, I think,

:53:30.:53:30.

Is that some kind of model that the Greens might look at?

:53:31.:53:36.

I am not averse to the idea of councils becoming

:53:37.:53:38.

more entrepreneurial, I think that is quite a good idea,

:53:39.:53:40.

but I think in order to make this work you have to let local councils

:53:41.:53:44.

have more control over taxation and to raise more taxes locally

:53:45.:53:46.

because at the moment they are constantly under the cosh

:53:47.:53:49.

from central government and you have these rows between local Tories

:53:50.:53:52.

and National Tories which is actually quite dishonest.

:53:53.:53:53.

The Treasury is always very resistant to any more

:53:54.:53:56.

There is not much point in having devolution if you don't have revenue

:53:57.:54:00.

And there we are touching on another big debate!

:54:01.:54:03.

The Prime Minister says mental health services have been

:54:04.:54:05.

But her promise to stop young people being sent out of their local area

:54:06.:54:11.

for treatment won't come into affect for another four years,

:54:12.:54:13.

leaving some families in the South West in limbo.

:54:14.:54:15.

One teenager from St Ives faces being treated outside England

:54:16.:54:18.

after medical staff called 19 mental health units across the country but

:54:19.:54:21.

It's a picture of youthful exuberance, but it doesn't

:54:22.:54:29.

The 17-year-old is currently staying at an NHS unit in Somerset.

:54:30.:54:36.

To visit her daughter, Mum, Marie, must make a 300 mile round trip

:54:37.:54:40.

But that journey that could become greater still.

:54:41.:54:45.

I've been told by CAHMS that they have tried

:54:46.:54:48.

to contact everyone in England and there is nowhere

:54:49.:54:52.

for her in England, and that they are looking

:54:53.:54:55.

to take her out of the country basically to either

:54:56.:54:58.

But even then they haven't said that there is a unit there or any

:54:59.:55:04.

help that that is going to be any different to what is

:55:05.:55:07.

In a speech last month the Prime Minister Theresa May

:55:08.:55:15.

referred to the burning injustice of inadequate mental health care.

:55:16.:55:18.

There is no escaping the fact that people with mental health problems

:55:19.:55:21.

are still not treated the same as if they have a physical ailment.

:55:22.:55:24.

By 2021 no child will be sent away from the local area to be

:55:25.:55:27.

treated for a general mental health condition.

:55:28.:55:35.

The South West has fewer specialist mental health beds for teenagers

:55:36.:55:38.

than any other part of the country and there are none

:55:39.:55:40.

Steve Cockburn has been fighting for a children's unit

:55:41.:55:44.

His son Ben took his own life in an adult unit

:55:45.:55:48.

What I don't understand is of the ?5 billion that the Tory

:55:49.:55:52.

government talk about, can we have our five million

:55:53.:55:55.

for Cornwall, please, so we can have a unit.

:55:56.:55:57.

She has had to give up her job and has two other younger

:55:58.:56:05.

They have said, you know, they can notice a difference

:56:06.:56:08.

in Sasha when I go to see her, and can I come to see her more?

:56:09.:56:12.

It isn't really possible, and now they are saying that it

:56:13.:56:15.

It is so much harder for me to go there.

:56:16.:56:20.

NHS England said it was reviewing its children and adolescent mental

:56:21.:56:24.

health services to secure a more balanced distribution

:56:25.:56:26.

A spokesman said it planned to eliminate inappropriate

:56:27.:56:30.

Molly, I think everybody would accept that if people have

:56:31.:56:44.

specialist conditions or exotic diseases than you might need to take

:56:45.:56:47.

them along way from their homes to treat them but it seems

:56:48.:56:50.

extraordinary that in this kind of incidents it is the only option. Not

:56:51.:56:56.

only extraordinary, but really quite cruel, because these are people who

:56:57.:56:59.

cannot cope with the stresses of travelling that distance. It is fine

:57:00.:57:03.

for the Prime Minister to say she is very concerned as if she has

:57:04.:57:06.

suddenly discovered this issue but the Conservatives have been in power

:57:07.:57:15.

for seven years now so if we have a mental health crisis must be

:57:16.:57:18.

to look for deeper causes of what is to look for deeper causes of what is

:57:19.:57:20.

going on here because we saw a vulnerable young person that we know

:57:21.:57:23.

the pressure in schools in testing and competitiveness and so one

:57:24.:57:24.

encourages mental ill-health in young people and we have people

:57:25.:57:27.

signing up for benefits are constantly being persecuted in terms

:57:28.:57:31.

of looking at work and it is this kind of constant stress and pressure

:57:32.:57:36.

that adds to the crisis. I saw 61 million prescriptions today for

:57:37.:57:43.

antidepressants, and that is a vast amount of medication and we are just

:57:44.:57:48.

not tackling the issue as we should. Sarah, I am quite interested in your

:57:49.:57:52.

perspective as the chair of the health select committee because you

:57:53.:57:53.

look at the whole range... We looked look at the whole range... We looked

:57:54.:57:59.

at this specifically. Clearly there are many challenges. There are huge

:58:00.:58:04.

challenges in children and adolescent mental health challenges

:58:05.:58:07.

-- services and this has been around for a long time. What came across

:58:08.:58:12.

from our enquiry was but the best way to help this is to invest in

:58:13.:58:16.

early intervention because we know that half of mental illness starts

:58:17.:58:22.

before the age of 15 and if we invest in early intervention the

:58:23.:58:27.

plan is to try and not have children to a point when they are so unwell

:58:28.:58:30.

that they need an admission of the first place and there are many

:58:31.:58:33.

things that you can do in terms of assertive outreach and that has been

:58:34.:58:36.

happening across Devon so it is an improving picture across Devon.

:58:37.:58:40.

that we have just heard but I cannot that we have just heard but I cannot

:58:41.:58:44.

comment on that but I don't have the circumstances but clearly we would

:58:45.:58:49.

like children to be able to be cared for if they do need inpatient care

:58:50.:58:52.

close to home. There have been things where we have seen genuine

:58:53.:58:57.

progress such as the use of cells to detain children and young people,

:58:58.:59:01.

that is unacceptable for any age of course, but particularly

:59:02.:59:04.

unacceptable in children that is a the Theresa May has taken action on

:59:05.:59:07.

and it is something that is now coming to an end. What about the

:59:08.:59:14.

causes of ill health, the stresses the pressure, much more efficient to

:59:15.:59:18.

deal with that long wait for the ill-health. I absolutely agree and

:59:19.:59:21.

the health select committee is now together with the education select

:59:22.:59:24.

committee we are starting a joint enquiry looking at how, what the bed

:59:25.:59:28.

in the last enquiry was that most young people we spoke to wanted to

:59:29.:59:32.

be seen in the context of the education system and yet teachers

:59:33.:59:37.

feel ill equipped to actually deal with this. We know there is a rising

:59:38.:59:42.

tide of problems and it is a shame that Labour towards the end of their

:59:43.:59:46.

time in power cancelled the survey that was done. Candy has been keen

:59:47.:59:51.

to get in. There are a huge number of pitches are lots that needs to be

:59:52.:59:55.

done. Investment is starting to go now into children's services but

:59:56.:59:58.

what we need to see is that it gets to the front line. Candy. The

:59:59.:00:04.

issuing Liz that many children have been helped by the charity for Steve

:00:05.:00:11.

Coburn to help their parents get around to visit them all around the

:00:12.:00:16.

country and yet there is land that is available for a specialist centre

:00:17.:00:20.

for young people in Cornwall to be residential, not carted off to

:00:21.:00:24.

Edinburgh or all points north and south and west. In two years the

:00:25.:00:28.

cost of the NHS would be recouped by the cost of us sending them out of

:00:29.:00:32.

counting. I really say a challenge to the NHS in corbel, you have to

:00:33.:00:37.

get on with this. It is absolutely cruel that young people are being

:00:38.:00:42.

do it within two years. The do it within two years. The

:00:43.:00:47.

financial envelope is there so we should get on with it. OK, we have

:00:48.:00:49.

to get on with the programme but to get on with the programme but

:00:50.:00:51.

thank you very much. Now our regular round-up

:00:52.:00:52.

of the political week in 60 seconds. Students demonstrated

:00:53.:01:02.

against fascism in Exeter after a swastika was scratched

:01:03.:01:07.

into a door of the University. The Vice Chancellor also

:01:08.:01:10.

condemned the vandalism. The trouble is it doesn't

:01:11.:01:11.

fit with the character Those who want to see

:01:12.:01:17.

Plymouth airport reopen are The City Council's new plan cuts

:01:18.:01:29.

the time available before the site We believe there is no need

:01:30.:01:33.

to develop Plymouth airport There is sufficient land

:01:34.:01:37.

in the Plymouth area to meet Publicans say they are concerned

:01:38.:01:40.

about big rises to business rates. One South Devon pub

:01:41.:01:44.

is claiming their bill The government says

:01:45.:01:46.

increases are capped. And Bodmin Moor is hoping to follow

:01:47.:01:50.

Exmoor to get special Sarah, on the business rates issue,

:01:51.:02:11.

I was a bit confused this week. There was a suggestion I would

:02:12.:02:14.

and then the Prime Minister 's and then the Prime Minister 's

:02:15.:02:19.

spokesman suggested that maybe not. I was in the chamber when Sergei

:02:20.:02:22.

Javi Guerra that statement and it was very clear to those of us

:02:23.:02:25.

sitting there that it sounded that something was going to be coming

:02:26.:02:29.

forward for our high streets because in my constituency the high streets,

:02:30.:02:34.

there are businesses there that will there are businesses there that will

:02:35.:02:38.

see their rates increase increasingly even though for most of

:02:39.:02:42.

the country it is good news picture so I am hoping that we will see

:02:43.:02:46.

something in the budget. Candy, this is a familiar picture. Isn't it? I

:02:47.:02:52.

imagine there will be a review and because the business rates are going

:02:53.:02:55.

to local authorities my best bet is that the local authorities will end

:02:56.:02:59.

up taking it and it is quite wrong that the government is allowing

:03:00.:03:02.

Amazon to get away with it while our local high streets are getting head.

:03:03.:03:07.

Totally with Candy, that is what I do with European Parliament, tried

:03:08.:03:12.

to stop big corporations avoiding tax at the Independence cannot

:03:13.:03:16.

compete. The trouble is they are based on rents are we need a review

:03:17.:03:21.

of the system. Shift the tax towards the companies in the virtual space.

:03:22.:03:29.

The system needs to be reviewed. Were ending on consensus, a

:03:30.:03:33.

different kind of politics! We did agree slightly.

:03:34.:03:34.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.

:03:35.:03:36.

Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain

:03:37.:03:56.

leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way

:03:57.:03:59.

through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an

:04:00.:04:04.

intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.

:04:05.:04:10.

Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is

:04:11.:04:15.

going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll

:04:16.:04:19.

tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,

:04:20.:04:23.

that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't

:04:24.:04:28.

think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and

:04:29.:04:33.

Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion

:04:34.:04:38.

led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already

:04:39.:04:42.

moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how

:04:43.:04:47.

much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating

:04:48.:04:52.

that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of

:04:53.:04:57.

the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week

:04:58.:05:02.

on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind

:05:03.:05:05.

of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring

:05:06.:05:14.

that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords

:05:15.:05:18.

with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of

:05:19.:05:24.

it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a

:05:25.:05:29.

large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the

:05:30.:05:34.

Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as

:05:35.:05:39.

soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on

:05:40.:05:43.

Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and

:05:44.:05:48.

peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has

:05:49.:05:51.

all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in

:05:52.:05:56.

place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and

:05:57.:06:00.

the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them

:06:01.:06:06.

already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they

:06:07.:06:10.

were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they

:06:11.:06:15.

won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The

:06:16.:06:20.

question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The

:06:21.:06:23.

Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,

:06:24.:06:27.

but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in

:06:28.:06:31.

the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May

:06:32.:06:35.

because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in

:06:36.:06:41.

Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when

:06:42.:06:44.

they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain

:06:45.:06:48.

and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the

:06:49.:06:52.

moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional

:06:53.:06:56.

propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me

:06:57.:07:03.

the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of

:07:04.:07:06.

democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to

:07:07.:07:11.

cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.

:07:12.:07:16.

Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the

:07:17.:07:24.

Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and

:07:25.:07:28.

have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the

:07:29.:07:32.

timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,

:07:33.:07:36.

Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting

:07:37.:07:43.

that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party

:07:44.:07:47.

but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the

:07:48.:07:51.

most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this

:07:52.:07:56.

point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her

:07:57.:08:00.

timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel

:08:01.:08:02.

Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small

:08:03.:08:13.

group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is

:08:14.:08:17.

the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple

:08:18.:08:21.

of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the

:08:22.:08:27.

President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather

:08:28.:08:32.

close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is

:08:33.:08:37.

now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.

:08:38.:08:43.

Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not

:08:44.:08:49.

only close to the president but to a series of people within the

:08:50.:08:53.

administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to

:08:54.:08:58.

keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into

:08:59.:09:02.

that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can

:09:03.:09:08.

feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of

:09:09.:09:15.

negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and

:09:16.:09:18.

what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over

:09:19.:09:23.

later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into

:09:24.:09:27.

what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about

:09:28.:09:29.

our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among

:09:30.:09:33.

some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast

:09:34.:09:38.

with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet

:09:39.:09:42.

ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and

:09:43.:09:46.

we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind

:09:47.:09:51.

of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and

:09:52.:09:59.

that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no

:10:00.:10:02.

doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing

:10:03.:10:07.

the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it

:10:08.:10:15.

through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the

:10:16.:10:19.

president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically

:10:20.:10:23.

rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is

:10:24.:10:27.

his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is

:10:28.:10:31.

one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it

:10:32.:10:35.

isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said

:10:36.:10:45.

for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just

:10:46.:10:54.

look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor

:10:55.:10:58.

there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to

:10:59.:11:04.

go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which

:11:05.:11:10.

has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a

:11:11.:11:14.

serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more

:11:15.:11:18.

money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems

:11:19.:11:22.

there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people

:11:23.:11:26.

argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit

:11:27.:11:30.

but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.

:11:31.:11:37.

And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and

:11:38.:11:41.

the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and

:11:42.:11:45.

months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will

:11:46.:11:48.

have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to

:11:49.:11:54.

the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was

:11:55.:11:57.

remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If

:11:58.:12:02.

he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or

:12:03.:12:05.

another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she

:12:06.:12:09.

is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of

:12:10.:12:14.

the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.

:12:15.:12:19.

Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,

:12:20.:12:25.

magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are

:12:26.:12:32.

that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,

:12:33.:12:36.

rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to

:12:37.:12:40.

throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of

:12:41.:12:44.

this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to

:12:45.:12:48.

find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.

:12:49.:12:54.

I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim

:12:55.:12:57.

settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but

:12:58.:13:02.

they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in

:13:03.:13:08.

the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens

:13:09.:13:13.

promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,

:13:14.:13:18.

he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more

:13:19.:13:22.

important because that is when people will feel the cost living

:13:23.:13:23.

squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon

:13:24.:13:25.

on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at

:13:26.:13:29.

the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:30.:13:32.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:33.:13:38.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale, Ukip's Patrick O'Flynn, Swedish MP Laila Naraghi and Douglas Murray of the Henry Jackson Society. Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards are on the political panel.


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