19/03/2017 Sunday Politics South West


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,


After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.


With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,


Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.


NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission


impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,


unless hospitals are given more cash this year.


In the south-west, is it a fail for Providers joins me live.


In the south-west, is it a fail for fairer school funding? And anything


less than All that to come before 12:15pm,


and I'll also be talking to the former leader


of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg from his party's spring


conference in York. With me here in the studio,


throughout the programme, three of the country's top political


commentators: Tom Newton Dunn,


Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting their


thoughts using #bbcsp. So, the political challenges facing


Theresa May are stacking up. As well as negotiating


Britain's exit from the EU, the PM must now deal with SNP


demands for a second referendum on Scottish independence,


backbenchers agitating against cuts to school budgets, and a humiliated


Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key budget measure just one week


after announcing it. Here's Adam Fleming


on aturbulent political week Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather


in the residence of the First Minister of Scotland,


who's got a surprise. She wants a vote on whether Scotland


should leave the UK By taking the steps I have set out


today I am ensuring that Scotland's future will be decided,


not just by me, the Scottish Government,


or the SNP, it will be decided


by the people of Scotland. Westminster, 6:25pm


the same day, MPs reject amendments to the legislation


authorising the Prime Minister to The Bill ceremonially heads


to the Lords where peers abandoned attempts to change it


and it becomes law. But Downing Street doesn't trigger


Article 50 as many had expected. Some say they were spooked


by Nicola Sturgeon. We get an e-mail from


the Treasury can the We get an e-mail from


the Treasury cancelling the planned rise in


National Insurance for the self-employed


announced the budget. It's just minutes before


Prime Minister's Questions at noon. The trend towards greater


self-employment does create a We will bring forward


further proposals but we will not bring forward


increases to NICs later in this It seems to me like a government


in a bit of chaos here. By making this change today


we are listening to our colleagues fulfil both the letter


and the spirit of our manifesto tax Thursday, 7am, Conservative


campaign HQ and the Electoral Commission fines the party


?70,000 for misreporting spending But that's not what


the Prime Minister Because at 12:19pm she


gives her verdict on a We should be working


together, not pulling apart. We should be working


together to get that right deal for Scotland,


that So, as I say, that's my job


as Prime Minister and so for that reason I say to the SNP


now is not the time. Friday and time for


the faithful to gather. SNP activists at their


spring conference Conservatives in Cardiff


to hear the Prime Minister promote her plan for a more


meritocratic Brexit Britain. At 11:10am comes some news


about a newspaper that's frankly I'm thrilled and excited to be


the new editor of The Evening Standard and,


you know, with so many big issues in our world


what good analysis, great news


journalism. It's a really important time


for good journalism that The Evening Standard


is going to provide. There was no let-up yesterday


as Gordon Brown launched proposals Under my proposals


we keep the Barnett Formula, we keep the fiscal


transfers, but we also bring the and fisheries back to the Scottish


Parliament. And just think, all this and we're


still counting down to the What a week in politics. It has been


a torrid week for the government, Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa


May shake it off, or is this a sign of worse to come? We may all be


feeling a bit breathless after the events of last week and we are in


for a a long war of attrition with the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy


will be to foster over lengthy periods of time as much resentment


and anger as she can in Scotland and try to create the impression that


independence is somehow inevitable. Is Scotland the biggest challenge


for Theresa May in the next year or so? I think it probably is because


if you look at how relatively easily the Brexit bill went through on an


issue where people could hardly feel more passionate in the Commons, and


actually despite all the potential drama it has gone through quite


smoothly. To go back to your original question, she just carries


on. Don't underestimate the basic quiet and will towards Theresa May


amongst the majority of Tory backbenchers. Yes, there are


difficult little issues over school funding, sorry, it's not a little


issue, it is a big one but she will get over that and treat each thing


as it comes and keep pressing on. Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's


Bluff in that the First Minister said I want a referendum, here is


roughly when I wanted, the Prime Minister says you're not having one.


What happens next? She has done quite well and impact the progress


Theresa May made this week in frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was


evident when Nicola Sturgeon said, OK, maybe we can talk about the


timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has already been the first one to blink.


I would slightly disagree with Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree


Scotland will be the biggest hurdle for her. What this week showed as is


Theresa May... It was a reality bites week. Theresa May is juggling


four mammoth crises at the same time, Brexit obviously which I still


think will be the biggest challenge to get a good deal, Trump left field


who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and Scotland and the fiscal challenge,


this enormous great problem, and it reinforced the point this is not an


easy time in politics. The budget is over four years. That was one small


problem, the immediate problem is how to fill the social care crisis


and the ageing demographic. This is not normal times in British politics


and Theresa May does not have a normal workload on her plate, hence


why I think we will see more mistakes made as time goes on and as


she has this almost impossible workload to juggle. How tempted do


you think the Prime Minister is to call an early election? There is


more chatter about it now. Is she tempted and if there is will she


succumb? I will answer that in a second as Harold Wilson used to say.


I want to agree, disagree with the rest of the panel about how she has


out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this week. I think Nicola Sturgeon


expected Theresa May to say no to her expected timetable. It would be


amazing if she had said yes. She expected her to say no but Sturgeon


catalyst that will fuel support for her cause. There is no sign of that.


The latest poll this morning shows 66-44 against independence and only


13% think they would be better off with an independent Scotland and a


clear majority do not want a second referendum. But the calculation of


resistance from Westminster combined with Brexit which hasn't started


yet, I think this is her calculation, she didn't expect


Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead, I'm sure she expected Theresa May to


say no, you can't have it at your desired timetable. On the wider


point, I think Theresa May is in a fascinating position, she is both


strong because she faces weak opposition and is ahead in the


opinion polls. But faces the most daunting agenda of any Prime


Minister for 40 or 50 years, I think. So it's a weird combination.


I don't think she wants to call an election. I don't think she has


thought about how you would manipulate it, what the trigger


would be, and whether she's got the energy and space to prepare for and


then mount a campaign was beginning the Brexit negotiation. Now, you


could see the cause would be the small majorities that will make her


life hellish, which it will do. Whether a landslide would help is


another question, they can be difficult too. But I think the


problems outweigh the advantages of going early. Do you think she would


go for an early election? I don't and I think you have to look at the


rhetoric coming out of No 10 which is so firm on this question, it is a


delicious prospect for us as commentators to think there might be


an election around the corner but they are so firm on this I can't see


it happening. I agree, we are in unanimous agreement on this one. It


is superficially attractive because she would love the big majority and


she would get a lot more through Parliament especially with Brexit.


The nitty-gritty of it makes an early General Election this year


almost impossible. How do you write a manifesto on high Brexit versus


soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's box of uncertainties. And there is


enough with the European elections. The EU will say are we negotiating


with you or the person who may replace you? How do you keep the


Tory party united going to an election? How do you call one, with


a vote of no confidence in yourself you may end up losing. Easy on paper


but difficult in practice. We shall see.


So if Theresa May did go for an early election this spring,


The party's campaigns and elections chief Andrew Gwynne


Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we have just been talking about,


executed one of the most embarrassing U-turns in recent


history this week. It has been a torrid time for the Theresa May


government. Why are the Tories still so chipper?


The Labour Party has been on an early election footing since before


Christmas and we are preparing ourselves for that eventuality in


case that does come. That means that we've got to get ourselves into a


position whereby we can not only challenge the government but we can


also offer a valuable alternative for the British people to choose


from should that election arise. So, would you welcome an early General


Election? Well, of course, I don't want this government to be in power


so of course if there is an opportunity to put a case to the


British people as to why there is a better way, and I believe the Labour


way is the better way than of course we would want to put that case to


the country. So, would Labour vote in the Commons for an early


election? Well, of course as an opposition, not wanting to be in


opposition, wanting to be in government should the government put


forward a measure in accordance with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then


that's something we would very seriously have to consider. I know


you would have to consider it but would you vote for an early election


or not? Well, of course we want to be the government so if the current


government puts forward measures to bring forward a General Election we


would want to put our case to the British public and that's one of the


jobs that I've been given, together Labour Party organisation early into


a position where we can fight a General Election --


organisationally. For the avoidance of doubt, if the Government work to


issue a motion in the Commons for an early election, the Labour Party


would vote for an early election? It would be very difficult not,


Andrew. If the Government wants to dissolve parliament, wants a General


Election, we don't want the Tories in government, we want to be in


government and we want to have that opportunity to put that case to the


British people. Are you ready for an early election?


You say you have been on a war all but since the Labour conference last


autumn, but are you ready for one? How big is the election fighting


fund? We have substantial amounts of money in our fighting fund, that is


true, because not only has the Labour Party managed to eliminate


its own financial deficit that it inherited from previous election


campaigns, we have also managed to build up a substantial fund in the


off chance we have an election. We have also expanded massively


operations at Labour HQ, we are taking on additional staff, and one


of the jobs that myself and Ian Lavery who I job share with are


currently doing is to go around the Parliamentary Labour Party to make


sure that Labour colleagues have the support and the resources that they


need, should they have to face the electorate in their constituencies.


So you are on a war footing, ready for the fight, you say you would


vote for the fight, so have you got your tax and spend policies ready to


roll out? That is something the shadow Treasury team will be


discussing. One of the things is, if there is an early General Election,


the normal timetable for these things gets fast-track because our


policy decision-making body, its annual conference, we have the


national policy forum that creates policies suggestions. You have been


on a war footing since the last Labour conference, that is what Mr


Corbyn told us. So you must have a fair idea of what policies you would


fight an early election on. How much extra per year would you spend on


the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going to set out the Labour manifesto for


an election that hasn't been called. I'm just asking you about the NHS.


You must have a policy for that. We have a policy for the NHS. So how


much extra? I will not set out Labour's tax-and-spend policies here


on The Sunday Politics when there hasn't even been election called.


You said you had been on a war footing and you are prepared to vote


for one, so if you can't Tommy that, can you tell me what the corporation


rate tax on company profits be under a Labour government -- tell me that.


You will have to be patient. I have. And wait for Mrs May to trigger an


early election. If there is an election on the 4th of May the rich


would have to be issued on the 27th of March, so that's not long to


wait. If that date passes we aren't having an election on the 4th of May


and the normal timetable for policy development will continue. All


right. You lost Copeland, I think you were in charge of a by-election


for Labour, your national poll ratings are still dire, even after


week of terrible times for the Tories. Sometimes you even lose


local government by-elections in safe seats, including in the place


you are now, in Salford. How long does Mr Corbyn have to turn this


around? Well, look, the issue of the Labour leadership was settled last


year. The last thing the Labour Party now needs is another period of


introspection with the Labour Party merely talks to the Labour Party. We


are now on an election footing in case Mrs May does trigger an early


General Election. We need to be talking to the British people are


not to ourselves. So any speculation about the Labour leadership might


excite you in the media but actually for us in the Labour Party it's


about re-engaging and reconnecting with the voters. Rather than being


excited, I feel quite daunted at the prospect of an early election. So I


wouldn't get that right. Normally, given the number of mistakes this


government has made, and its mid-term, you would expect any


self-respecting opposition to be about ten points ahead. On the


latest polls this morning you are 17 behind. There is a 27-30 point gap


from where you should normally be as an opposition. Are you telling me


that if that doesn't change, you still fight the General Election


with Mr Corbyn? These are matters for the future. I


believe the leadership issue was settled last year. We have had two


leadership contest in two years. Would you seriously contemplate


going into the next election, if it is early I perfectly understand


Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it is not until 2020, and you are still


17 points behind in the polls, will you go into the next election like


that? There is a lot of future looking and speculation there, I


don't know what the future holds, where the Labour Party will be in 12


months let alone by 2020 summit cross those bridges when we come to


it. My main challenge is to make sure the Labour Party is in the best


possible place organisationally to fight an election, that's my


challenge and I'm up for that to make sure we are in the best


possible place to make sure Labour returns as many Labour MPs as


possible. Thank you for joining us. And we're joined now


from the Liberal Democrats' spring conference in York by the former


Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. Good morning. In his conference


speech today, Tim Farron lumps Theresa May with Vladimir Putin,


Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In what way is Mrs May similar to


Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not saying Theresa May is identical to


Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim Wilby spelling out shortly in his


speech is that we need to be aware what's going on in the world, the


International settlement that was arrived at after the First World --


Second World War, that bound supranational organisations is under


attack from characters as diverse as Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and


Donald Trump, and that by side in so ostentatiously with Donald Trump and


pursuing this very hard Brexit, Theresa May appears to be giving


succour to that much more isolationist chauvinist view of the


world than the multilateral approach that Britain has subscribed to for a


long time. The exact words he plans to use are welcome to the New World


order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Theresa May,


aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU, nationalistic. In what way is Mrs


May fitting into any of that? In what way is she similar to Vladimir


Putin? I'm not aware she has interfered with other people's


elections. The clue is in the quote you just read out, which is the


world order. The world order over the last half century or more, by


the way a lesson I'm afraid we have to learn in Europe because of the


terrible bloodshed of two world was in the space of a few decades, was


based on the idea might is not right. Strong arm leaders cannot


throw their weight around. What we have now with Putin, the populism


across parts of Europe and Donald Trump who thinks the EU will unravel


is a shift to a radically different view of the world. Mrs May doesn't


think any of that. She is not antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she


wants the EU to succeed. She's not aggressive as far as I'm aware so


I'm not sure why you would lump the British Prime Minister in with these


other characters. Let me explain, by choosing this uncompromising


approach to Brexit, clearly in doing so she, in my view, maybe not yours


or others, is pursuing a self harming approach to the United


Kingdom but also pulling up the threads that bind the rest of the


European Union together, in so ostentatiously siding with Donald


Trump, somehow declaring in my view speciously that we can make up with


the trade we will lose, she's not challenging the shift to a more


chauvinist approach to world affairs that is happening in many places.


You are at your party's Spring conference, I think we can agree any


Lib Dem come back will take a long time. Would Tory dominance be more


effectively challenged by a realignment of the centre and the


centre-left? Are you working towards that? I missed half the question but


I think you are talking about a realignment. As a cook a way to get


over Tory dominance, would you want that to happen? Are you working


towards that? My view is the recovery of the Lib Dems will be


quicker than you suggest. People often forget that even the low point


of our fortunes in the last election we still got a million more votes


than the SNP, it's only because we have got this crazy electoral


system... But the SNP fight in Scotland, you fight in the whole


country! But I'm saying the way seats are allocated overlooks the


fact that 2.5 million still voted for us. But my own view is of course


there are people feeling increasingly homeless in the liberal


wing of the Conservative Party because they are now in a party


which is in effect indistinguishable from Ukip on some of the biggest


issues of the day, and homeless folk on the rational, reasonable wing of


the Labour Party. I would invite them to join the Liberal Democrats


and I would invite everyone across parties to talk about the idea is


that bind us because the Westminster village can invest a lot of energy


building new castles in the sky, inventing new names for parties when


actually what you want is for people on the progressive centre ground of


British politics to talk about the ideas that unite them, from the


dilemmas of artificial intelligence to climate change. Do you think in


your own view, can Brexit still be thwarted or is it now a matter of


getting the best terms? I think we are in an interlude, almost a calm


between two storms, the storm of the referendum itself and the collision


between the Government's stated ambitions for Brexit and the reality


of having to negotiate something unworkable with 27 other


governments. The one thing I can guarantee you is that what the


Government has promised to the British people cannot happen. Over a


slower period of time we will work out our new relationship with the


European Union. Theresa May said she will settle divorce arrangements,


and pensions, so one, negotiate new trade agreements, new climate change


policies and so on, and have all of that ratified within two years, that


will not happen so I think there will be a lot of turbulence in the


next couple of years. Will you use this turbulence to try to thwart


Brexit, to find a way of rolling back the decision? It's not about


repeating the debates of the past or thwarting the will of the people but


it is comparing what people were promised from the ?350 million for


the NHS every week through to this glittering array of new trade


agreements we will sign across the world, with the reality that will


transpire in the next couple of years and at that point, yes it is


my belief people should be able to take a second look at if that is


what they really want. A couple of quick questions, would you welcome


an early general election? I always welcome them, we couldn't do worse


than we did last time. That is certainly true. You have a column in


the Evening Standard, have you spoken to the new editor about


whether he will keep your column or spike it? No, I wait in nervous


anticipation. Can you be a newspaper editor in the morning and an MP in


the afternoon? Do I think that's feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit.


There is no prohibition, no law against MPs being editors. They have


been in the past and no doubt will again in the future. He is taking a


lot on, he is an editor, also wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting


academic in the States, working in the city, I suspect something will


give. It seems to me even by his self-confidence standards in his own


abilities I suspect he is taking on a little bit too much. Very


diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you will get to keep the column. Thanks


for joining us. Now, for the last six months


England's NHS bosses have been warning the health service needs


more money to help it meet But in his first Budget,


the Chancellor offered no immediate relief,


and today the head of the organisation representing


England's NHS trusts says hundreds of thousands of patients will have


to wait longer for both emergency care and planned operations,


unless the Government Warnings over funding


are not exactly new. Back in 2014 the head of the NHS


in England, Simon Stevens, published his plan for the future


of the health service. In his five-year forward view,


Stevens said the NHS in England would face a funding shortfall of up


to ?30 billion by 2020. To bridge that gap he said the NHS


would need more money from the Government,


at least ?8 billion extra, and that the health service


could account for the rest by making The Government says it's given


the health service more than what it asked for, and that NHS


in England will have received That number is disputed by NHS


managers and the chair of Parliament's health committee,


who say the figure is more like ?4.5 billion, while other parts


of the health and social care budget have been cut, putting


pressure on the front line. Last year, two thirds of NHS


trusts in England finished the year in the red,


and despite emergency bailouts from the Government,


the NHS is likely to record Meanwhile national targets


on waiting times for A departments, diagnostic tests,


and operations are being This month's Budget provided


?2 billion for social care but there was no new cash


for the NHS, leading trusts to warn that patient care is beginning


to suffer, and what is being asked And I'm joined now by


the Chief Executive of NHS Providers in England,


Chris Hopson. Welcome to the programme. Morning,


Andrew. I will come onto the extra money you need to do your job


properly in a minute but first, part of the deal was you had to make 22


billion in efficiency savings, not a bank that money but spend it on


patient care, the front line, and so on. How is that going? So, last


parliament we realised around 18 billion of productivity and


efficiency savings, we are realising more this year so we are on course


to realise 3 billion this year, that is a quarter of a billion more than


last year but all of us in the NHS knew the 22 billion would be a very


stretching target and we are somewhat inevitably falling short.


So it is 22 billion by 2,020. Roughly. That was the time. We are


now into 2017. So how much of the 22 billion have you achieved? We


realised around 3 billion last year and we will realise 3 billion this


year, Court of billion more, 3.25 billion this year, so we are on


course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the 2021 period? You are not that far


away. The problem is the degree to which demand is going up. We have


record demand over the winter period and that actually meant we have seen


more people than we have ever seen before but performance is still


under real pressure. Let me come onto that. When you agreed on the 22


billion efficiency savings plus some extra money from the government, I


know there is a bit of an argument about how much that is actually


worth, had you not factored in this extra demand that you saw coming


over the next three or four years? Let's be very clear committee


referred to Simon Stevens's forward view and we signed up to it but the


22 billion was a process run at the centre of government by the


Department of Health with its arms length bodies, NHS England and


others and is not something that was consulted on with the NHS. But you


signed up to it. We always said that the day that that Spending Review


was announced, the idea that the NHS where customer demand goes up


something like four or 5% every year, the idea that in the middle


years of Parliament we would be able to provide the same level of service


when we were only getting funding increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%,


and I can show you the press release we issued, we always said there was


going to be a gap and that we would not be able to deliver what was


required. The full 22 billion in other words? What we said to Simon


Stevens at the Public Accounts Committee a few months ago, the NHS


didn't get what it was asked for. Today the NHS, cope with the


resources it has according to you. How much more does it need? Are


reported is about 2017-18 and we estimate that what we are being


asked to do, and again, Andrew, you clearly set it out in the package,


we are a long way off the four-hour A target and a long way off the


92%. The waiting times and operations. How much more do you


need? And we are making up a ?900 million deficit. If you take all of


those into account we estimate you would need an extra ?3.5 billion


next year in order to deliver all of those targets and eliminate the


deficit. That would be 3.5 billion on top of what is already planned


next year and that would be 3.5 billion repeated in the years to


come too? Yes, Andrew it is important we should make an


important distinction about the NHS versus other public services. When


the last government, the last Labour government put extra money into the


NHS it clearly said that in return for that it would establish some


standards in the NHS Constitution, the 95% A target we have talked


about and the 92% elective surgery we have talked about. The trust we


represent are very clear, they would want to realise those standards, but


you can only do it if you pay for it. The problem is at the moment is


we are in the longest and deepest financial squeeze in NHS history. As


we have said, funding is only going up by 1% per year but every year


just to stand still cost and demand go up by more than 4%. There is


clearly a demand for more money. I think people watching this programme


will think probably the NHS is going to have to get more money to meet


the goals you have been given. I think they would also like to be


sure that your Mac running the NHS as efficiently as it could be. We


read this morning that trusts have got ?100 million of empty properties


that cost 10 million to maintain, 36 office blocks are not being used,


you have surplus land equivalent to 1800 football pitches. Yes, there


are a number of things that we know in the NHS we need to do better but


let me remind you, Andrew, in the last Parliament we realised ?18


billion worth of cost improvement gains. We are going to realise


another 3 billion this year, 0.25 billion more than last year so these


things are being targeted. But having that surplus land, it is


almost certainly in areas where there is a demand for housing.


Absolutely. So why not release it for housing? You get the money, the


people get their houses and its contribution and a signal that you


are running NHS assets as efficiently as you can? Tell me if


I'm going to too much detail for you. One of the reasons as to why


our trusts are reluctant to realise those land sales is because there is


an assumption that the money would go back to the Treasury and wouldn't


benefit NHS trusts. You could make a deal, couldn't you? That's part of


the conversation going on at the moment. The issue is that we would


want to ensure that if we do release land, quite rightly the benefit,


particularly in foundation trusts which are, as you will remember,


deliberately autonomous organisations, that they should keep


the benefit of those land sales. Have you raised that with the


government? Yes we have. What did they say? They


are in discussions of it. We heard somebody who moved from one job and


then to another job and given a big salary and then almost ?200,000 as a


payoff. There is a national mood for the NHS to get more money. But


before you give anybody any more money you want to be sure that the


money you have got already is being properly spent, which for us, is the


patient at the end of the day. And yet there seem to be these enormous


salaries and payoffs. I've worked in a FTSE 100 on the board of Her


Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I have worked in large organisations.


I can look you completely straight in the eye and tell you that the


jobs that our hospital, community, mental health and ambulance chief


Executives do are amongst the most complicated leadership roles I have


ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable that in order to get


the right quality of people we should pay an appropriate salary.


The reality is the salaries are paid are not excessive when talking about


managing budgets of over ?1 billion a year and talking about managing


tens of thousands of staff. There was a doctor working as a locum that


earned an extra ?375,000. One of the problems in the NHS is a mismatch


between the number of staff we need and the number of staff coming


through the pipeline. What is having to happen is if you want to keep a


service going you have to use Mackem and agency staff. Even at that cost?


You would not want to pay those amounts. But you are. The chief


Executives's choice in those areas is giving the service open or


employing a locum. I'm sure you could find a locum prepared to work


for less than that. What indication, what hopes do you have of getting


the extra ?3 billion? The government has been very clear, for the moment


it wants to stick to the existing funding settlement it has agreed. So


there was nothing in the budget. Can I finish by making one important


point. Please, finish. This is the first time the NHS has said before


the year has even started that we can't deliver on those standards. We


believe, as do most people who work in the NHS, that the NHS is on a


gradual slow decline. This is a very important inflection point to Mark,


this is the first time before the financial year starts that we say we


cannot meet the targets we are being asked to deliver and are in the NHS


Constitution. We have run out of time. Chris Hopson, thank you for


being with me. It's just gone 11:35am,


you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers


in Scotland who leave us now Coming up on the Sunday Politics


here in the South West... Fishermen and Brexit -


is it payback time? George Eustice and other ministers


made a big play of fishing And I think they actually owe


the fishing industry something. And for the next 20 minutes I'm


joined by the Labour councillor and former MP Candy Atherton,


and Farming and Fisheries Welcome, both of you,


to the programme. The Chancellor's plan to increase


National Insurance contributions from the self-employed survived


for slightly less than a week in the face of opposition


from Tory backbenchers. George, how did he get


in such a mess over this? Look, a Budget, this


can happen in Budgets. We all remember the pasty


tax of a few years ago. It's one of the problems


with a Budget, because there is a secrecy around them and then


they are launched in Sometimes there is a bad


reaction to them. I think in this one,


what they have reflected on, given the fact there was opposition


from a lot of our own backbenchers, given there was a manifesto


commitment not to raise National Insurance -


although it meant the class one National Insurance,


not the self-employed one - they have taken the view that


if they can't get it through Parliament,


they should revisit this. That's what they are doing and


that's what Parliament exists for. Candy, you did enjoy this,


it appears, rather. But did Labour do enough as


opposition, because the newspapers did seem to pick up on the fact that


really it was the Tory backbenchers, And I of course have been calling


on Tory backbenchers But we really didn't need


to do anything this week. The Tories were quite capable


of doing their own omnishambles. When you get these sorts


of decisions, you just have to look at it and listen to Parliament


and listen to your own backbenchers. The Chancellor now has a chance


to look at it again and he will come back in the Autumn Statement


with some revised plans. I think that's


the right thing to do. That's democracy in action


and people often say.... Could school funding, George,


be the next issue to force Ministers are bringing


in what is supposed to be a fairer way of sharing cash between schools


in different parts of the country. The existing system disadvantaged


areas like here in the south-west. But many are expecting to lose


funding, and the plans are facing opposition from within Tory


ranks yet again. The government says the new formula


will help pupils who get free school meals and those living


in disadvantaged areas. You can't actually put something


forward showing it to be a benefit, when it has such an adverse effect


on our schools and young people. I do feel cross and very


frustrated at the work and the job I'm expected to do,


with ever increasing No school avoids having a real


terms cut per pupil. Quite simply, the pot is not big


enough to benefit everybody. Schools in Devon already receive


less funding per pupil than other So when the government announced


it was considering a new formula to allocate money, there was hope


this might be addressed. Instead, this school


in Budleigh Salterton If the Fairer Funding Formula comes


into effect, my school loses 2.5% of its budget,


which is quite substantial. In reality, what that will mean


is I have to do my best to cut things back as far as possible


so that I can avoid to try Councils in Devon, Dorset


and Somerset were among those who wrote to the Prime Minister


to voice their concerns. Quite bluntly, I don't know how


they managed to draw up a formula that has absolutely upset everybody


throughout the Shire counties. Typically lower funded areas,


perhaps are not seeing the gains Under the new formula,


the games will go to the most Under the new formula,


the gains will go to the most Not so according to


the authors of a new report. The benefit that those


schools would otherwise receive are being swamped


by wider funding pressures. They are not recognising


rural deprivation and And our pupils are just


as disadvantaged, but in The Department for Education says


a consultation is still taking place on how the funding


formula is calculated. Are we facing another policy


climb-down here, do you think, because Tory backbenchers


are already threatening It is what it says on the tin -


it's a consultation. I think the thing to recognise is,


school funding is at It's at a record level in absolute


terms and in pounds per pupil. What we have tried to do with this


funding formula is try to equalise Because there has been this historic


unfairness in rural areas. That has been perpetuated


year on year. Just to give some figures -


we didn't in the piece. Places in London, you are talking


?7000 or ?8,000 per pupil. In Plymouth and parts


of Cornwall it's ?4000, And it's been like that


for many, many years, under Labour governments,


under Conservative governments. This is the first government


that's changing it. That's what the consultation


is about, it's about trying to get fairer, more equal payments


per pupil, so that rural schools and schools in places like Cornwall


start to get the same amount I have some concerns


with the formula in that I think it doesn't do enough to recognise some


of the deprivation we have in Cornwall, low income deprivation


rather than some of the other types We mentioned there that Labour


didn't bring it in when actually the money had been there had


Tony Blair decided The money overall went


to all the schools. The investment into schools


in the Labour years was massive. It was easier to sort it out


when there was more money, though. It might have been the time,


but also we actually When Labour came into office,


the toilets were outside. Labour didn't want to help rural


areas, they wanted to leave They put the money into their pet


projects, into the grammar schools and the free schools,


and actually it's all schools The right time, as you say,


to have done this, was when funding was going up, when there was a lot


of money around. The time to do it is


when you promise to do it. Whenever you do a review of any


formula, and this is perhaps the reason some have doubts,


is that there will be And there will be a lot of schools


in Cornwall that are better off. I have schools in my


constituency that do better. But there also some


that are worse off. That's why I said we need


to look again at some Is it one of those things


that's impossible, George? For example, David Laws,


the former Lib Dem Schools Minister, said that actually this is the kind


of thing where there are no friends for the government


because you will take money from some schools, and the others


are not going to get quite enough Do you think it's an impossible


position unless you pump in more Nothing is impossible,


but is it politically difficult? But this is a government


that is willing to do difficult That's why we are doing


this consultation now even though money is tight,


even though it's not an easy time to do it,


it's the right thing to do, and that's why we


are trying to do it. And the previous Chancellor has been


wryly amused because he recognised it wasn't something that


you want to do. The previous Chancellor was the one


who committed to having this review. Because in the next fortnight,


Theresa May will begin a formal Then she has to deliver on the many


promises made to Brexit supporters, ranging from action on immigration


to cuts in red tape and a better It could be a tall order


as Tamsin Melville reports. BOB GELDOF: You are no


fishermen's friend! Nigel, go back down the river,


because you are up Few aspects of our EU membership


have generated as much passion and controversy


as the Common Fisheries Policy. It's all right for


millionaires, mate! During the referendum debate


the industry was divided. But in the event, fishing regions


around the UK like Cornwall In the months since,


warnings the industry, which produces 0.5% of the UK's GDP,


might be marginalised George Eustice and other ministers


made a big play of fishing I think they actually owe


the fishing industry something. And a question mark over how


deliverable the wish list is of better access to fishing


grounds, markets and quotas in a post-Brexit Britain is leading


to a strong warning. There will inevitably,


and probably necessarily, be a negotiated agreement outside


of the 12 mile limit, But we do not expect there to be


the same degree of negotiation That's for the UK fishermen


and the UK inshore fleet, it should be managed for the benefit


of those guys. And anything less than complete


exclusivity will be seen as a betrayal, which isn't too


strong a word. Making sure that fishermen do get


a good deal is also key for this prominent businesswoman Brexiteer,


who back in June was celebrating. With two years of negotiations


about to get under way, still a lot of optimism about less


red tape for business I don't suppose we will get


everything, but I'm willing to take a gamble on the fact is that


if we take back control here, we can make decisions here,


but local funding is held here and we get the funding


in the right places But a message to the government


to sort out the sticking Because they are making it


about immigration and I don't think anybody in Cornwall voted for Brexit


over immigration It's more about taking control,


taking back control. The constituency of St Austell


and Newquay had the highest proportion of people voting


for Brexit in Cornwall, with more than six out


of ten plumping for leave. Let's find out what people


here in St Austell are thinking No.


No. The sooner they do it, the better.


We're pleased, yeah. We need to shut our


borders off as well. It's true, though.


Yeah. Immigrant-gration,


that is a problem. The hospitals is on its knees


because of it all, So do you think the UK Government


is going to get what you wanted? Otherwise there'll be hell


out, wouldn't there? You know, all these people


coming into the country and our National Health as it is,


maybe if that stops... I'm not on about the people


that are here to leave and go, but the people


who are actually coming in. But there was that pledge,


wasn't there, on the buses Do you think that was right,


is that going to happen? A few doubts, but it


seems hopes remains high It's over now to the


government to deliver. A lot was made in the campaign


before the referendum on the fishing industry and how we can claim


back our waters. Why haven't you done it,


because you can do this before triggering Article


50, can't you? There are two separate


but linked issues. There's something called


the 1964 London Convention, that predates our membership


of the EU, and that gives certain countries access


to the 6-12 miles zone. We have been very clear,


I have been consistent throughout, that we are looking very closely


at this issue. It is possible to revoke our


membership of that convention We've not yet made the final


decision, but I have been very clear that we are looking very


closely at this. Because there is a strong case


for it, particularly If you could exclude some


of the Dutch and French vessels from our 6-12 mile zone then


you would give more opportunities to some of those inshore vessels


who often struggle to get We heard Paul Trebilcock there,


on behalf of a lot of fishermen, saying anything less than bringing


in the 12 mile exclusion zone He said that wasn't


too strong a word. Look, I deal with fishermen a lot,


and they often assume the worst. I have said all the same things


since the decision to leave the EU I have been clear that we will


still fish sustainably. I have been clear that UN law


will be the new legal baseline. That's what Norway has,


it's what the Faroe Islands have. But we will still have some


kind of quota regime. We will still have to control


fishing in some way. I was honest about that


in the campaign and I've not said anything different


since the campaign. Candy, you seem like


you are agreeing here. Is it time to be patient now,


should we not jump the gun? It would be an ironic irony,


an irony, if they were actually the ones who were worst hit


as a result of Brexit. If we have a really bad


Brexit, then my fears But where there has to be


negotiations, it's not It was a nonsense when it was said


in the campaign, as now people And you detected that in the piece,


people are starting to realise that actually, it's not going to be


all this money to the NHS. It's not going to be all these great


goodies coming down. On fisheries, I was really clear


throughout that there would always still have


to be international negotiation. There will be annual negotiation


with the EU, with Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland,


just as we have now. How farmers, something close


to your heart, George, get workers that they need


after we leave. The government says


that the industry will recruit more unemployed British people rather


than relying on so many I think it must be part


of our long-term solution that the sector becomes less reliant


on migrant labour and And the government reforms


to the benefit system, for example, is aimed at encouraging more people


back into the workforce. These are jobs that traditionally


people in the UK have done, and there are opportunities,


I think, for British people in many cases,


to take some of these jobs. Changes to the benefit system


are part of that picture of incentivising people


to enter the workforce. You were sitting next


to the Immigration Minister there, I also gave evidence


to that committee. It all sounds fair


enough, doesn't it? If there are jobs, and local people


can do them, why would you bring in European workers,


and why wouldn't you give those people those jobs


and take them off benefits? Because the businesses are saying


that the right people are not necessarily those who are unemployed


who we need to get into the jobs. And are we going to be saying


to 65-year-old women who are not retiring until they are 67,


that they have to go out and pick Have you seen the modern


slavery law, George? We need workers to help us


manage our health service, everywhere you look,


and particularly in agriculture. Stopping you there, what do you mean


about modern slavery? I do believe that if you say


to people, you can eat, you can have a house,


a home, a roof over your head, but you've got to work absolutely


in this field picking cauliflowers, then I think that's not


a particularly the way this I don't quite understand this


argument that it's not modern slavery to have migrant labour doing


roles that you don't think people And if you listen to


the whole evidence session - it was a very long session,


three hours - there were two things One is, there will still be


a need for migrant labour. The important thing is,


having controlled migration doesn't mean pulling up the drawbridge


and stopping all migration. It simply means exactly what it


says, that you can control it. And we will have the ability to have


short-term work permits to allow some people to come


here to do seasonal work. We are looking at the detail


of exactly what we would put Will it mean that, as was put


in the papers, I know one piece where it said you end up having


immigration workers to do the picking, but maybe not


the doctors, if you are limiting it You could, or indeed,


in the case of agriculture, and this is the context


about getting more local people into agriculture,


there are roles, full-time roles, tractor driver rolls,


irrigation managers, agronomists. Other full-time farming roles


where actually the more progressive people in the farming industry do


tell me they could probably do better to get local people


from local schools taking Surely if those people


were available, they would be doing it now for those jobs you are saying


are slightly more skilled? No, what I think actually a lot


of them will admit is that it has been too easy just to rely


on migrant labour and have The farmers, it's been


too easy for farmers? Yes, and actually this is where,


there is a very interesting discussion to be had


about whether we have, yes, some permits in a controlled way


for seasonal labour where we can't But I think the quid pro quo


for that should be farm businesses trying a bit harder to get girls


and boys from local schools, when they leave at 16,


entering as apprentices. Candy makes the point that it's


a young person's job, You couldn't be expected to have


arthritis or some kind of issue, the elderly, and doing that


sort of job. And also do farmers


necessarily want certain types It tends to be, although there


are older people who are actually very fit and a lot of them


want to go and pick fruit. Often people who have retired


want to supplement their pension with a bit of extra income,


they do actually enjoy There are examples


of this at all farms. Candy, can Labour now


do anything to change the course of Brexit,


do you think? For those who are the 48ers,


of which I was one, strongly in favour of Remain,


I hope that this hard Brexit which is a road


we seem to be following.... Your party is allowing Article 50


to be triggered, isn't it? It's probably above my pay grade,


but I would say this, that I strongly hope that we don't


put up the barriers, that we are an open country,


that we don't end up Any opposition, it's tough


being in opposition. It's a lot easier to be


in opposition than to I would like to see us really


holding this government to account and make sure that we have a Brexit


that doesn't leave this It's time for our regular round-up


of the political week in 60 seconds. Devon and Cornwall police are one


of 12 forces to send files to the Crown Prosecution Service


as part of enquiries into the Conservatives'


general election expenses. As well as the enquiry


into local spending, the Tories have been fined a record


?70,000 for failing to report Businesses have voiced concern


at a big fall in the number of European Union students wanting


to study in the south-west. The number applying


to the University of Exeter has The UK must be seen to be


open to people from all Campaigners welcomed a military


Appeal Court ruling that a Royal Marine Alexander Blackman


didn't murder a wounded Taliban fighter, but was guilty


of the lesser charge of manslaughter on the grounds of


diminished responsibility. And there were more protests over


the temporary closure of beds at Holsworthy hospital,


and fears that the loss of beds It's such an important thing,


a centre of the community, really. STUDIO: Right, let's look then


at election spending. Is it possible, George,


that at the end of this process and investigation,


we might have to see some I don't think that's


likely, and I don't think What's happened here,


is there is an investigation They are looking at all of the seats


where volunteers went It shouldn't have happened,


though, should it? The Labour Party at the last


election bussed in activists from Plymouth for some


of their campaign days. You don't force people to declare


the petrol if they drive from one But we were not hauled


into the High Court having to produce our receipts


and our expenditure. The Conservative Party have


left your MPs out to dry. I think the way they are behaving


and the way they have The truth here is that this


was a national expense. The party said they were going


to declare it nationally, so they told all those MPs not


to declare it locally. So local MPs, it's do with the way


it was organised nationally. It's a national expense, and that's


the way it has been accepted. It was a national expense


and declared nationally, It's coming up to the end


of our programme, Sunday Politics Thanks to both of my


guests, Candy and George. you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back


to you. So, can George Osborne stay


on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force


a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas


and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?


They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.


Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it


was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's


Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May


on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.


But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP


for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,


Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of


While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,


an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him


Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow


at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,


And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,


he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking


around ?750,000 since last summer.


So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,


though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow


MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that


kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy


about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting


appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre


right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been


on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they


are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.


So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to


condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are


all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the


degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard


was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it


was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be


overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.


But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms


have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who


used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on


television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank


account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,


Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to


see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the


Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David


Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.


Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is


sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I


was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble


journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am


everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage


everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.


What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption


about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He


thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of


message does that send to people about how seriously people take the


role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The


Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the


proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some


kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback


there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished


yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne


cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and


tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see


already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!


Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've


never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not


bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own


future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be


Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a


new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an


MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The


Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to


make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day


and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The


news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in


your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not


over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.


School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky


one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this


through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a


small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.


Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not


going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been


on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether


they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something


possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you


can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there


are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go


ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the


country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in


certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,


the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being


mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate


more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in


the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on


schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to


be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,


NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip


Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There


was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested


perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at


passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when


it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we


study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and


quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May


is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it


wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed


Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us


see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of


argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday


was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the


speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in


intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As


you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more


cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the


industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain


markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there


comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.


They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face


rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel


bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two


things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food


bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she


has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen


to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.


They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk


and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree


with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on


this and the principle of continually talking about


interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on


energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the


world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are


open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing


this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem


in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't


operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,


the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you


should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest


explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,


this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the


meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty


government action on this for quite some time. For the just about


managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated


by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and


centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by


the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral


because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming


into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went


very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there


was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do


to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing


Street. We await to see the actions taken.


On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics


will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.


And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.


Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


I've not given myself that time to sit down


Two years ago, former England captain Rio Ferdinand lost his wife


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