19/03/2017 Sunday Politics South West


19/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:37.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:38.:00:40.

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:41.:00:53.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:54.:00:55.

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:00:56.:01:00.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:01.:01:03.

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:04.:01:07.

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:08.:01:10.

In the south-west, is it a fail for Providers joins me live.

:01:11.:01:21.

In the south-west, is it a fail for fairer school funding? And anything

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less than All that to come before 12:15pm,

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and I'll also be talking to the former leader

:01:26.:01:35.

of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg from his party's spring

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conference in York. With me here in the studio,

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throughout the programme, three of the country's top political

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commentators: Tom Newton Dunn,

:01:46.:01:47.

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting their

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thoughts using #bbcsp. So, the political challenges facing

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Theresa May are stacking up. As well as negotiating

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Britain's exit from the EU, the PM must now deal with SNP

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demands for a second referendum on Scottish independence,

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backbenchers agitating against cuts to school budgets, and a humiliated

:02:08.:02:11.

Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key budget measure just one week

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after announcing it. Here's Adam Fleming

:02:15.:02:19.

on aturbulent political week Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather

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in the residence of the First Minister of Scotland,

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who's got a surprise. She wants a vote on whether Scotland

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should leave the UK By taking the steps I have set out

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today I am ensuring that Scotland's future will be decided,

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not just by me, the Scottish Government,

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or the SNP, it will be decided

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by the people of Scotland. Westminster, 6:25pm

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the same day, MPs reject amendments to the legislation

:02:53.:03:02.

authorising the Prime Minister to The Bill ceremonially heads

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to the Lords where peers abandoned attempts to change it

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and it becomes law. But Downing Street doesn't trigger

:03:21.:03:22.

Article 50 as many had expected. Some say they were spooked

:03:23.:03:29.

by Nicola Sturgeon. We get an e-mail from

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the Treasury can the We get an e-mail from

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the Treasury cancelling the planned rise in

:03:49.:03:49.

National Insurance for the self-employed

:03:50.:04:01.

announced the budget. It's just minutes before

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Prime Minister's Questions at noon. The trend towards greater

:04:03.:04:04.

self-employment does create a We will bring forward

:04:05.:04:06.

further proposals but we will not bring forward

:04:07.:04:09.

increases to NICs later in this It seems to me like a government

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in a bit of chaos here. By making this change today

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we are listening to our colleagues fulfil both the letter

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and the spirit of our manifesto tax Thursday, 7am, Conservative

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campaign HQ and the Electoral Commission fines the party

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?70,000 for misreporting spending But that's not what

:04:33.:04:34.

the Prime Minister Because at 12:19pm she

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gives her verdict on a We should be working

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together, not pulling apart. We should be working

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together to get that right deal for Scotland,

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that So, as I say, that's my job

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as Prime Minister and so for that reason I say to the SNP

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now is not the time. Friday and time for

:04:57.:05:00.

the faithful to gather. SNP activists at their

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spring conference Conservatives in Cardiff

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to hear the Prime Minister promote her plan for a more

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meritocratic Brexit Britain. At 11:10am comes some news

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about a newspaper that's frankly I'm thrilled and excited to be

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the new editor of The Evening Standard and,

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you know, with so many big issues in our world

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what good analysis, great news

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journalism. It's a really important time

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for good journalism that The Evening Standard

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is going to provide. There was no let-up yesterday

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as Gordon Brown launched proposals Under my proposals

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we keep the Barnett Formula, we keep the fiscal

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transfers, but we also bring the and fisheries back to the Scottish

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Parliament. And just think, all this and we're

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still counting down to the What a week in politics. It has been

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a torrid week for the government, Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa

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May shake it off, or is this a sign of worse to come? We may all be

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feeling a bit breathless after the events of last week and we are in

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for a a long war of attrition with the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy

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will be to foster over lengthy periods of time as much resentment

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and anger as she can in Scotland and try to create the impression that

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independence is somehow inevitable. Is Scotland the biggest challenge

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for Theresa May in the next year or so? I think it probably is because

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if you look at how relatively easily the Brexit bill went through on an

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issue where people could hardly feel more passionate in the Commons, and

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actually despite all the potential drama it has gone through quite

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smoothly. To go back to your original question, she just carries

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on. Don't underestimate the basic quiet and will towards Theresa May

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amongst the majority of Tory backbenchers. Yes, there are

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difficult little issues over school funding, sorry, it's not a little

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issue, it is a big one but she will get over that and treat each thing

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as it comes and keep pressing on. Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's

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Bluff in that the First Minister said I want a referendum, here is

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roughly when I wanted, the Prime Minister says you're not having one.

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What happens next? She has done quite well and impact the progress

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Theresa May made this week in frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was

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evident when Nicola Sturgeon said, OK, maybe we can talk about the

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timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has already been the first one to blink.

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I would slightly disagree with Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree

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Scotland will be the biggest hurdle for her. What this week showed as is

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Theresa May... It was a reality bites week. Theresa May is juggling

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four mammoth crises at the same time, Brexit obviously which I still

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think will be the biggest challenge to get a good deal, Trump left field

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who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and Scotland and the fiscal challenge,

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this enormous great problem, and it reinforced the point this is not an

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easy time in politics. The budget is over four years. That was one small

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problem, the immediate problem is how to fill the social care crisis

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and the ageing demographic. This is not normal times in British politics

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and Theresa May does not have a normal workload on her plate, hence

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why I think we will see more mistakes made as time goes on and as

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she has this almost impossible workload to juggle. How tempted do

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you think the Prime Minister is to call an early election? There is

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more chatter about it now. Is she tempted and if there is will she

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succumb? I will answer that in a second as Harold Wilson used to say.

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I want to agree, disagree with the rest of the panel about how she has

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out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this week. I think Nicola Sturgeon

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expected Theresa May to say no to her expected timetable. It would be

:09:19.:09:20.

amazing if she had said yes. She expected her to say no but Sturgeon

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catalyst that will fuel support for her cause. There is no sign of that.

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The latest poll this morning shows 66-44 against independence and only

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13% think they would be better off with an independent Scotland and a

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clear majority do not want a second referendum. But the calculation of

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resistance from Westminster combined with Brexit which hasn't started

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yet, I think this is her calculation, she didn't expect

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Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead, I'm sure she expected Theresa May to

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say no, you can't have it at your desired timetable. On the wider

:09:58.:10:01.

point, I think Theresa May is in a fascinating position, she is both

:10:02.:10:04.

strong because she faces weak opposition and is ahead in the

:10:05.:10:08.

opinion polls. But faces the most daunting agenda of any Prime

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Minister for 40 or 50 years, I think. So it's a weird combination.

:10:14.:10:18.

I don't think she wants to call an election. I don't think she has

:10:19.:10:21.

thought about how you would manipulate it, what the trigger

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would be, and whether she's got the energy and space to prepare for and

:10:26.:10:29.

then mount a campaign was beginning the Brexit negotiation. Now, you

:10:30.:10:34.

could see the cause would be the small majorities that will make her

:10:35.:10:38.

life hellish, which it will do. Whether a landslide would help is

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another question, they can be difficult too. But I think the

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problems outweigh the advantages of going early. Do you think she would

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go for an early election? I don't and I think you have to look at the

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rhetoric coming out of No 10 which is so firm on this question, it is a

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delicious prospect for us as commentators to think there might be

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an election around the corner but they are so firm on this I can't see

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it happening. I agree, we are in unanimous agreement on this one. It

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is superficially attractive because she would love the big majority and

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she would get a lot more through Parliament especially with Brexit.

:11:12.:11:15.

The nitty-gritty of it makes an early General Election this year

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almost impossible. How do you write a manifesto on high Brexit versus

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soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's box of uncertainties. And there is

:11:26.:11:29.

enough with the European elections. The EU will say are we negotiating

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with you or the person who may replace you? How do you keep the

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Tory party united going to an election? How do you call one, with

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a vote of no confidence in yourself you may end up losing. Easy on paper

:11:40.:11:44.

but difficult in practice. We shall see.

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So if Theresa May did go for an early election this spring,

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The party's campaigns and elections chief Andrew Gwynne

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Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we have just been talking about,

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executed one of the most embarrassing U-turns in recent

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history this week. It has been a torrid time for the Theresa May

:12:04.:12:08.

government. Why are the Tories still so chipper?

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The Labour Party has been on an early election footing since before

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Christmas and we are preparing ourselves for that eventuality in

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case that does come. That means that we've got to get ourselves into a

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position whereby we can not only challenge the government but we can

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also offer a valuable alternative for the British people to choose

:12:29.:12:35.

from should that election arise. So, would you welcome an early General

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Election? Well, of course, I don't want this government to be in power

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so of course if there is an opportunity to put a case to the

:12:43.:12:45.

British people as to why there is a better way, and I believe the Labour

:12:46.:12:50.

way is the better way than of course we would want to put that case to

:12:51.:12:54.

the country. So, would Labour vote in the Commons for an early

:12:55.:13:00.

election? Well, of course as an opposition, not wanting to be in

:13:01.:13:04.

opposition, wanting to be in government should the government put

:13:05.:13:08.

forward a measure in accordance with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then

:13:09.:13:12.

that's something we would very seriously have to consider. I know

:13:13.:13:14.

you would have to consider it but would you vote for an early election

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or not? Well, of course we want to be the government so if the current

:13:19.:13:23.

government puts forward measures to bring forward a General Election we

:13:24.:13:26.

would want to put our case to the British public and that's one of the

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jobs that I've been given, together Labour Party organisation early into

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a position where we can fight a General Election --

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organisationally. For the avoidance of doubt, if the Government work to

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issue a motion in the Commons for an early election, the Labour Party

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would vote for an early election? It would be very difficult not,

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Andrew. If the Government wants to dissolve parliament, wants a General

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Election, we don't want the Tories in government, we want to be in

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government and we want to have that opportunity to put that case to the

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British people. Are you ready for an early election?

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You say you have been on a war all but since the Labour conference last

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autumn, but are you ready for one? How big is the election fighting

:14:14.:14:16.

fund? We have substantial amounts of money in our fighting fund, that is

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true, because not only has the Labour Party managed to eliminate

:14:20.:14:27.

its own financial deficit that it inherited from previous election

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campaigns, we have also managed to build up a substantial fund in the

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off chance we have an election. We have also expanded massively

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operations at Labour HQ, we are taking on additional staff, and one

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of the jobs that myself and Ian Lavery who I job share with are

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currently doing is to go around the Parliamentary Labour Party to make

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sure that Labour colleagues have the support and the resources that they

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need, should they have to face the electorate in their constituencies.

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So you are on a war footing, ready for the fight, you say you would

:15:02.:15:05.

vote for the fight, so have you got your tax and spend policies ready to

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roll out? That is something the shadow Treasury team will be

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discussing. One of the things is, if there is an early General Election,

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the normal timetable for these things gets fast-track because our

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policy decision-making body, its annual conference, we have the

:15:24.:15:28.

national policy forum that creates policies suggestions. You have been

:15:29.:15:31.

on a war footing since the last Labour conference, that is what Mr

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Corbyn told us. So you must have a fair idea of what policies you would

:15:36.:15:40.

fight an early election on. How much extra per year would you spend on

:15:41.:15:44.

the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going to set out the Labour manifesto for

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an election that hasn't been called. I'm just asking you about the NHS.

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You must have a policy for that. We have a policy for the NHS. So how

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much extra? I will not set out Labour's tax-and-spend policies here

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on The Sunday Politics when there hasn't even been election called.

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You said you had been on a war footing and you are prepared to vote

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for one, so if you can't Tommy that, can you tell me what the corporation

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rate tax on company profits be under a Labour government -- tell me that.

:16:17.:16:23.

You will have to be patient. I have. And wait for Mrs May to trigger an

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early election. If there is an election on the 4th of May the rich

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would have to be issued on the 27th of March, so that's not long to

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wait. If that date passes we aren't having an election on the 4th of May

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and the normal timetable for policy development will continue. All

:16:41.:16:44.

right. You lost Copeland, I think you were in charge of a by-election

:16:45.:16:49.

for Labour, your national poll ratings are still dire, even after

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week of terrible times for the Tories. Sometimes you even lose

:16:55.:16:58.

local government by-elections in safe seats, including in the place

:16:59.:17:02.

you are now, in Salford. How long does Mr Corbyn have to turn this

:17:03.:17:08.

around? Well, look, the issue of the Labour leadership was settled last

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year. The last thing the Labour Party now needs is another period of

:17:12.:17:15.

introspection with the Labour Party merely talks to the Labour Party. We

:17:16.:17:22.

are now on an election footing in case Mrs May does trigger an early

:17:23.:17:25.

General Election. We need to be talking to the British people are

:17:26.:17:31.

not to ourselves. So any speculation about the Labour leadership might

:17:32.:17:35.

excite you in the media but actually for us in the Labour Party it's

:17:36.:17:39.

about re-engaging and reconnecting with the voters. Rather than being

:17:40.:17:43.

excited, I feel quite daunted at the prospect of an early election. So I

:17:44.:17:49.

wouldn't get that right. Normally, given the number of mistakes this

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government has made, and its mid-term, you would expect any

:17:54.:17:55.

self-respecting opposition to be about ten points ahead. On the

:17:56.:18:00.

latest polls this morning you are 17 behind. There is a 27-30 point gap

:18:01.:18:07.

from where you should normally be as an opposition. Are you telling me

:18:08.:18:11.

that if that doesn't change, you still fight the General Election

:18:12.:18:12.

with Mr Corbyn? These are matters for the future. I

:18:13.:18:22.

believe the leadership issue was settled last year. We have had two

:18:23.:18:28.

leadership contest in two years. Would you seriously contemplate

:18:29.:18:32.

going into the next election, if it is early I perfectly understand

:18:33.:18:37.

Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it is not until 2020, and you are still

:18:38.:18:41.

17 points behind in the polls, will you go into the next election like

:18:42.:18:46.

that? There is a lot of future looking and speculation there, I

:18:47.:18:55.

don't know what the future holds, where the Labour Party will be in 12

:18:56.:18:58.

months let alone by 2020 summit cross those bridges when we come to

:18:59.:19:01.

it. My main challenge is to make sure the Labour Party is in the best

:19:02.:19:04.

possible place organisationally to fight an election, that's my

:19:05.:19:07.

challenge and I'm up for that to make sure we are in the best

:19:08.:19:11.

possible place to make sure Labour returns as many Labour MPs as

:19:12.:19:16.

possible. Thank you for joining us. And we're joined now

:19:17.:19:21.

from the Liberal Democrats' spring conference in York by the former

:19:22.:19:23.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. Good morning. In his conference

:19:24.:19:33.

speech today, Tim Farron lumps Theresa May with Vladimir Putin,

:19:34.:19:36.

Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In what way is Mrs May similar to

:19:37.:19:46.

Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not saying Theresa May is identical to

:19:47.:19:49.

Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim Wilby spelling out shortly in his

:19:50.:19:55.

speech is that we need to be aware what's going on in the world, the

:19:56.:19:58.

International settlement that was arrived at after the First World --

:19:59.:20:08.

Second World War, that bound supranational organisations is under

:20:09.:20:13.

attack from characters as diverse as Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and

:20:14.:20:18.

Donald Trump, and that by side in so ostentatiously with Donald Trump and

:20:19.:20:22.

pursuing this very hard Brexit, Theresa May appears to be giving

:20:23.:20:27.

succour to that much more isolationist chauvinist view of the

:20:28.:20:30.

world than the multilateral approach that Britain has subscribed to for a

:20:31.:20:36.

long time. The exact words he plans to use are welcome to the New World

:20:37.:20:42.

order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Theresa May,

:20:43.:20:49.

aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU, nationalistic. In what way is Mrs

:20:50.:20:55.

May fitting into any of that? In what way is she similar to Vladimir

:20:56.:21:00.

Putin? I'm not aware she has interfered with other people's

:21:01.:21:04.

elections. The clue is in the quote you just read out, which is the

:21:05.:21:11.

world order. The world order over the last half century or more, by

:21:12.:21:14.

the way a lesson I'm afraid we have to learn in Europe because of the

:21:15.:21:18.

terrible bloodshed of two world was in the space of a few decades, was

:21:19.:21:24.

based on the idea might is not right. Strong arm leaders cannot

:21:25.:21:27.

throw their weight around. What we have now with Putin, the populism

:21:28.:21:36.

across parts of Europe and Donald Trump who thinks the EU will unravel

:21:37.:21:41.

is a shift to a radically different view of the world. Mrs May doesn't

:21:42.:21:47.

think any of that. She is not antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she

:21:48.:21:52.

wants the EU to succeed. She's not aggressive as far as I'm aware so

:21:53.:21:57.

I'm not sure why you would lump the British Prime Minister in with these

:21:58.:22:04.

other characters. Let me explain, by choosing this uncompromising

:22:05.:22:09.

approach to Brexit, clearly in doing so she, in my view, maybe not yours

:22:10.:22:15.

or others, is pursuing a self harming approach to the United

:22:16.:22:19.

Kingdom but also pulling up the threads that bind the rest of the

:22:20.:22:24.

European Union together, in so ostentatiously siding with Donald

:22:25.:22:29.

Trump, somehow declaring in my view speciously that we can make up with

:22:30.:22:37.

the trade we will lose, she's not challenging the shift to a more

:22:38.:22:41.

chauvinist approach to world affairs that is happening in many places.

:22:42.:22:46.

You are at your party's Spring conference, I think we can agree any

:22:47.:22:51.

Lib Dem come back will take a long time. Would Tory dominance be more

:22:52.:22:57.

effectively challenged by a realignment of the centre and the

:22:58.:22:59.

centre-left? Are you working towards that? I missed half the question but

:23:00.:23:05.

I think you are talking about a realignment. As a cook a way to get

:23:06.:23:12.

over Tory dominance, would you want that to happen? Are you working

:23:13.:23:18.

towards that? My view is the recovery of the Lib Dems will be

:23:19.:23:22.

quicker than you suggest. People often forget that even the low point

:23:23.:23:26.

of our fortunes in the last election we still got a million more votes

:23:27.:23:31.

than the SNP, it's only because we have got this crazy electoral

:23:32.:23:40.

system... But the SNP fight in Scotland, you fight in the whole

:23:41.:23:46.

country! But I'm saying the way seats are allocated overlooks the

:23:47.:23:53.

fact that 2.5 million still voted for us. But my own view is of course

:23:54.:23:58.

there are people feeling increasingly homeless in the liberal

:23:59.:24:01.

wing of the Conservative Party because they are now in a party

:24:02.:24:06.

which is in effect indistinguishable from Ukip on some of the biggest

:24:07.:24:12.

issues of the day, and homeless folk on the rational, reasonable wing of

:24:13.:24:15.

the Labour Party. I would invite them to join the Liberal Democrats

:24:16.:24:20.

and I would invite everyone across parties to talk about the idea is

:24:21.:24:24.

that bind us because the Westminster village can invest a lot of energy

:24:25.:24:30.

building new castles in the sky, inventing new names for parties when

:24:31.:24:33.

actually what you want is for people on the progressive centre ground of

:24:34.:24:40.

British politics to talk about the ideas that unite them, from the

:24:41.:24:47.

dilemmas of artificial intelligence to climate change. Do you think in

:24:48.:24:54.

your own view, can Brexit still be thwarted or is it now a matter of

:24:55.:25:01.

getting the best terms? I think we are in an interlude, almost a calm

:25:02.:25:06.

between two storms, the storm of the referendum itself and the collision

:25:07.:25:10.

between the Government's stated ambitions for Brexit and the reality

:25:11.:25:14.

of having to negotiate something unworkable with 27 other

:25:15.:25:19.

governments. The one thing I can guarantee you is that what the

:25:20.:25:22.

Government has promised to the British people cannot happen. Over a

:25:23.:25:35.

slower period of time we will work out our new relationship with the

:25:36.:25:39.

European Union. Theresa May said she will settle divorce arrangements,

:25:40.:25:46.

and pensions, so one, negotiate new trade agreements, new climate change

:25:47.:25:50.

policies and so on, and have all of that ratified within two years, that

:25:51.:25:54.

will not happen so I think there will be a lot of turbulence in the

:25:55.:26:00.

next couple of years. Will you use this turbulence to try to thwart

:26:01.:26:05.

Brexit, to find a way of rolling back the decision? It's not about

:26:06.:26:11.

repeating the debates of the past or thwarting the will of the people but

:26:12.:26:15.

it is comparing what people were promised from the ?350 million for

:26:16.:26:19.

the NHS every week through to this glittering array of new trade

:26:20.:26:26.

agreements we will sign across the world, with the reality that will

:26:27.:26:30.

transpire in the next couple of years and at that point, yes it is

:26:31.:26:34.

my belief people should be able to take a second look at if that is

:26:35.:26:39.

what they really want. A couple of quick questions, would you welcome

:26:40.:26:47.

an early general election? I always welcome them, we couldn't do worse

:26:48.:26:52.

than we did last time. That is certainly true. You have a column in

:26:53.:26:56.

the Evening Standard, have you spoken to the new editor about

:26:57.:27:00.

whether he will keep your column or spike it? No, I wait in nervous

:27:01.:27:09.

anticipation. Can you be a newspaper editor in the morning and an MP in

:27:10.:27:16.

the afternoon? Do I think that's feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit.

:27:17.:27:21.

There is no prohibition, no law against MPs being editors. They have

:27:22.:27:27.

been in the past and no doubt will again in the future. He is taking a

:27:28.:27:33.

lot on, he is an editor, also wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting

:27:34.:27:38.

academic in the States, working in the city, I suspect something will

:27:39.:27:43.

give. It seems to me even by his self-confidence standards in his own

:27:44.:27:47.

abilities I suspect he is taking on a little bit too much. Very

:27:48.:27:53.

diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you will get to keep the column. Thanks

:27:54.:27:55.

for joining us. Now, for the last six months

:27:56.:27:59.

England's NHS bosses have been warning the health service needs

:28:00.:28:02.

more money to help it meet But in his first Budget,

:28:03.:28:04.

the Chancellor offered no immediate relief,

:28:05.:28:07.

and today the head of the organisation representing

:28:08.:28:09.

England's NHS trusts says hundreds of thousands of patients will have

:28:10.:28:11.

to wait longer for both emergency care and planned operations,

:28:12.:28:14.

unless the Government Warnings over funding

:28:15.:28:16.

are not exactly new. Back in 2014 the head of the NHS

:28:17.:28:23.

in England, Simon Stevens, published his plan for the future

:28:24.:28:26.

of the health service. In his five-year forward view,

:28:27.:28:31.

Stevens said the NHS in England would face a funding shortfall of up

:28:32.:28:34.

to ?30 billion by 2020. To bridge that gap he said the NHS

:28:35.:28:37.

would need more money from the Government,

:28:38.:28:40.

at least ?8 billion extra, and that the health service

:28:41.:28:43.

could account for the rest by making The Government says it's given

:28:44.:28:46.

the health service more than what it asked for, and that NHS

:28:47.:28:53.

in England will have received That number is disputed by NHS

:28:54.:28:56.

managers and the chair of Parliament's health committee,

:28:57.:29:01.

who say the figure is more like ?4.5 billion, while other parts

:29:02.:29:04.

of the health and social care budget have been cut, putting

:29:05.:29:07.

pressure on the front line. Last year, two thirds of NHS

:29:08.:29:13.

trusts in England finished the year in the red,

:29:14.:29:16.

and despite emergency bailouts from the Government,

:29:17.:29:18.

the NHS is likely to record Meanwhile national targets

:29:19.:29:20.

on waiting times for A departments, diagnostic tests,

:29:21.:29:25.

and operations are being This month's Budget provided

:29:26.:29:28.

?2 billion for social care but there was no new cash

:29:29.:29:35.

for the NHS, leading trusts to warn that patient care is beginning

:29:36.:29:39.

to suffer, and what is being asked And I'm joined now by

:29:40.:29:42.

the Chief Executive of NHS Providers in England,

:29:43.:29:48.

Chris Hopson. Welcome to the programme. Morning,

:29:49.:29:59.

Andrew. I will come onto the extra money you need to do your job

:30:00.:30:02.

properly in a minute but first, part of the deal was you had to make 22

:30:03.:30:06.

billion in efficiency savings, not a bank that money but spend it on

:30:07.:30:11.

patient care, the front line, and so on. How is that going? So, last

:30:12.:30:16.

parliament we realised around 18 billion of productivity and

:30:17.:30:19.

efficiency savings, we are realising more this year so we are on course

:30:20.:30:23.

to realise 3 billion this year, that is a quarter of a billion more than

:30:24.:30:28.

last year but all of us in the NHS knew the 22 billion would be a very

:30:29.:30:32.

stretching target and we are somewhat inevitably falling short.

:30:33.:30:36.

So it is 22 billion by 2,020. Roughly. That was the time. We are

:30:37.:30:47.

now into 2017. So how much of the 22 billion have you achieved? We

:30:48.:30:51.

realised around 3 billion last year and we will realise 3 billion this

:30:52.:30:55.

year, Court of billion more, 3.25 billion this year, so we are on

:30:56.:31:01.

course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the 2021 period? You are not that far

:31:02.:31:06.

away. The problem is the degree to which demand is going up. We have

:31:07.:31:09.

record demand over the winter period and that actually meant we have seen

:31:10.:31:14.

more people than we have ever seen before but performance is still

:31:15.:31:18.

under real pressure. Let me come onto that. When you agreed on the 22

:31:19.:31:24.

billion efficiency savings plus some extra money from the government, I

:31:25.:31:28.

know there is a bit of an argument about how much that is actually

:31:29.:31:32.

worth, had you not factored in this extra demand that you saw coming

:31:33.:31:38.

over the next three or four years? Let's be very clear committee

:31:39.:31:42.

referred to Simon Stevens's forward view and we signed up to it but the

:31:43.:31:47.

22 billion was a process run at the centre of government by the

:31:48.:31:49.

Department of Health with its arms length bodies, NHS England and

:31:50.:31:53.

others and is not something that was consulted on with the NHS. But you

:31:54.:31:58.

signed up to it. We always said that the day that that Spending Review

:31:59.:32:04.

was announced, the idea that the NHS where customer demand goes up

:32:05.:32:07.

something like four or 5% every year, the idea that in the middle

:32:08.:32:10.

years of Parliament we would be able to provide the same level of service

:32:11.:32:15.

when we were only getting funding increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%,

:32:16.:32:21.

and I can show you the press release we issued, we always said there was

:32:22.:32:25.

going to be a gap and that we would not be able to deliver what was

:32:26.:32:29.

required. The full 22 billion in other words? What we said to Simon

:32:30.:32:35.

Stevens at the Public Accounts Committee a few months ago, the NHS

:32:36.:32:39.

didn't get what it was asked for. Today the NHS, cope with the

:32:40.:32:45.

resources it has according to you. How much more does it need? Are

:32:46.:32:51.

reported is about 2017-18 and we estimate that what we are being

:32:52.:32:54.

asked to do, and again, Andrew, you clearly set it out in the package,

:32:55.:32:58.

we are a long way off the four-hour A target and a long way off the

:32:59.:33:03.

92%. The waiting times and operations. How much more do you

:33:04.:33:09.

need? And we are making up a ?900 million deficit. If you take all of

:33:10.:33:11.

those into account we estimate you would need an extra ?3.5 billion

:33:12.:33:17.

next year in order to deliver all of those targets and eliminate the

:33:18.:33:21.

deficit. That would be 3.5 billion on top of what is already planned

:33:22.:33:25.

next year and that would be 3.5 billion repeated in the years to

:33:26.:33:30.

come too? Yes, Andrew it is important we should make an

:33:31.:33:33.

important distinction about the NHS versus other public services. When

:33:34.:33:38.

the last government, the last Labour government put extra money into the

:33:39.:33:41.

NHS it clearly said that in return for that it would establish some

:33:42.:33:46.

standards in the NHS Constitution, the 95% A target we have talked

:33:47.:33:50.

about and the 92% elective surgery we have talked about. The trust we

:33:51.:33:55.

represent are very clear, they would want to realise those standards, but

:33:56.:33:59.

you can only do it if you pay for it. The problem is at the moment is

:34:00.:34:02.

we are in the longest and deepest financial squeeze in NHS history. As

:34:03.:34:07.

we have said, funding is only going up by 1% per year but every year

:34:08.:34:12.

just to stand still cost and demand go up by more than 4%. There is

:34:13.:34:18.

clearly a demand for more money. I think people watching this programme

:34:19.:34:21.

will think probably the NHS is going to have to get more money to meet

:34:22.:34:25.

the goals you have been given. I think they would also like to be

:34:26.:34:30.

sure that your Mac running the NHS as efficiently as it could be. We

:34:31.:34:34.

read this morning that trusts have got ?100 million of empty properties

:34:35.:34:39.

that cost 10 million to maintain, 36 office blocks are not being used,

:34:40.:34:44.

you have surplus land equivalent to 1800 football pitches. Yes, there

:34:45.:34:48.

are a number of things that we know in the NHS we need to do better but

:34:49.:34:54.

let me remind you, Andrew, in the last Parliament we realised ?18

:34:55.:34:57.

billion worth of cost improvement gains. We are going to realise

:34:58.:35:02.

another 3 billion this year, 0.25 billion more than last year so these

:35:03.:35:08.

things are being targeted. But having that surplus land, it is

:35:09.:35:11.

almost certainly in areas where there is a demand for housing.

:35:12.:35:17.

Absolutely. So why not release it for housing? You get the money, the

:35:18.:35:21.

people get their houses and its contribution and a signal that you

:35:22.:35:24.

are running NHS assets as efficiently as you can? Tell me if

:35:25.:35:29.

I'm going to too much detail for you. One of the reasons as to why

:35:30.:35:34.

our trusts are reluctant to realise those land sales is because there is

:35:35.:35:37.

an assumption that the money would go back to the Treasury and wouldn't

:35:38.:35:42.

benefit NHS trusts. You could make a deal, couldn't you? That's part of

:35:43.:35:45.

the conversation going on at the moment. The issue is that we would

:35:46.:35:49.

want to ensure that if we do release land, quite rightly the benefit,

:35:50.:35:53.

particularly in foundation trusts which are, as you will remember,

:35:54.:36:04.

deliberately autonomous organisations, that they should keep

:36:05.:36:06.

the benefit of those land sales. Have you raised that with the

:36:07.:36:08.

government? Yes we have. What did they say? They

:36:09.:36:19.

are in discussions of it. We heard somebody who moved from one job and

:36:20.:36:22.

then to another job and given a big salary and then almost ?200,000 as a

:36:23.:36:27.

payoff. There is a national mood for the NHS to get more money. But

:36:28.:36:31.

before you give anybody any more money you want to be sure that the

:36:32.:36:34.

money you have got already is being properly spent, which for us, is the

:36:35.:36:38.

patient at the end of the day. And yet there seem to be these enormous

:36:39.:36:43.

salaries and payoffs. I've worked in a FTSE 100 on the board of Her

:36:44.:36:50.

Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I have worked in large organisations.

:36:51.:36:52.

I can look you completely straight in the eye and tell you that the

:36:53.:36:56.

jobs that our hospital, community, mental health and ambulance chief

:36:57.:36:59.

Executives do are amongst the most complicated leadership roles I have

:37:00.:37:03.

ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable that in order to get

:37:04.:37:06.

the right quality of people we should pay an appropriate salary.

:37:07.:37:10.

The reality is the salaries are paid are not excessive when talking about

:37:11.:37:15.

managing budgets of over ?1 billion a year and talking about managing

:37:16.:37:18.

tens of thousands of staff. There was a doctor working as a locum that

:37:19.:37:26.

earned an extra ?375,000. One of the problems in the NHS is a mismatch

:37:27.:37:30.

between the number of staff we need and the number of staff coming

:37:31.:37:33.

through the pipeline. What is having to happen is if you want to keep a

:37:34.:37:38.

service going you have to use Mackem and agency staff. Even at that cost?

:37:39.:37:42.

You would not want to pay those amounts. But you are. The chief

:37:43.:37:48.

Executives's choice in those areas is giving the service open or

:37:49.:37:52.

employing a locum. I'm sure you could find a locum prepared to work

:37:53.:37:56.

for less than that. What indication, what hopes do you have of getting

:37:57.:38:02.

the extra ?3 billion? The government has been very clear, for the moment

:38:03.:38:07.

it wants to stick to the existing funding settlement it has agreed. So

:38:08.:38:11.

there was nothing in the budget. Can I finish by making one important

:38:12.:38:16.

point. Please, finish. This is the first time the NHS has said before

:38:17.:38:21.

the year has even started that we can't deliver on those standards. We

:38:22.:38:25.

believe, as do most people who work in the NHS, that the NHS is on a

:38:26.:38:30.

gradual slow decline. This is a very important inflection point to Mark,

:38:31.:38:34.

this is the first time before the financial year starts that we say we

:38:35.:38:37.

cannot meet the targets we are being asked to deliver and are in the NHS

:38:38.:38:42.

Constitution. We have run out of time. Chris Hopson, thank you for

:38:43.:38:43.

being with me. It's just gone 11:35am,

:38:44.:38:44.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:38:45.:38:46.

in Scotland who leave us now Coming up on the Sunday Politics

:38:47.:38:49.

here in the South West... Fishermen and Brexit -

:38:50.:39:05.

is it payback time? George Eustice and other ministers

:39:06.:39:10.

made a big play of fishing And I think they actually owe

:39:11.:39:13.

the fishing industry something. And for the next 20 minutes I'm

:39:14.:39:20.

joined by the Labour councillor and former MP Candy Atherton,

:39:21.:39:23.

and Farming and Fisheries Welcome, both of you,

:39:24.:39:25.

to the programme. The Chancellor's plan to increase

:39:26.:39:30.

National Insurance contributions from the self-employed survived

:39:31.:39:33.

for slightly less than a week in the face of opposition

:39:34.:39:36.

from Tory backbenchers. George, how did he get

:39:37.:39:39.

in such a mess over this? Look, a Budget, this

:39:40.:39:42.

can happen in Budgets. We all remember the pasty

:39:43.:39:46.

tax of a few years ago. It's one of the problems

:39:47.:39:48.

with a Budget, because there is a secrecy around them and then

:39:49.:39:53.

they are launched in Sometimes there is a bad

:39:54.:39:55.

reaction to them. I think in this one,

:39:56.:39:58.

what they have reflected on, given the fact there was opposition

:39:59.:40:01.

from a lot of our own backbenchers, given there was a manifesto

:40:02.:40:05.

commitment not to raise National Insurance -

:40:06.:40:07.

although it meant the class one National Insurance,

:40:08.:40:09.

not the self-employed one - they have taken the view that

:40:10.:40:12.

if they can't get it through Parliament,

:40:13.:40:15.

they should revisit this. That's what they are doing and

:40:16.:40:16.

that's what Parliament exists for. Candy, you did enjoy this,

:40:17.:40:19.

it appears, rather. But did Labour do enough as

:40:20.:40:21.

opposition, because the newspapers did seem to pick up on the fact that

:40:22.:40:25.

really it was the Tory backbenchers, And I of course have been calling

:40:26.:40:29.

on Tory backbenchers But we really didn't need

:40:30.:40:33.

to do anything this week. The Tories were quite capable

:40:34.:40:38.

of doing their own omnishambles. When you get these sorts

:40:39.:40:40.

of decisions, you just have to look at it and listen to Parliament

:40:41.:40:47.

and listen to your own backbenchers. The Chancellor now has a chance

:40:48.:40:50.

to look at it again and he will come back in the Autumn Statement

:40:51.:40:56.

with some revised plans. I think that's

:40:57.:40:58.

the right thing to do. That's democracy in action

:40:59.:41:00.

and people often say.... Could school funding, George,

:41:01.:41:02.

be the next issue to force Ministers are bringing

:41:03.:41:07.

in what is supposed to be a fairer way of sharing cash between schools

:41:08.:41:11.

in different parts of the country. The existing system disadvantaged

:41:12.:41:14.

areas like here in the south-west. But many are expecting to lose

:41:15.:41:17.

funding, and the plans are facing opposition from within Tory

:41:18.:41:21.

ranks yet again. The government says the new formula

:41:22.:41:24.

will help pupils who get free school meals and those living

:41:25.:41:35.

in disadvantaged areas. You can't actually put something

:41:36.:41:41.

forward showing it to be a benefit, when it has such an adverse effect

:41:42.:41:44.

on our schools and young people. I do feel cross and very

:41:45.:41:49.

frustrated at the work and the job I'm expected to do,

:41:50.:41:53.

with ever increasing No school avoids having a real

:41:54.:41:56.

terms cut per pupil. Quite simply, the pot is not big

:41:57.:42:02.

enough to benefit everybody. Schools in Devon already receive

:42:03.:42:09.

less funding per pupil than other So when the government announced

:42:10.:42:14.

it was considering a new formula to allocate money, there was hope

:42:15.:42:20.

this might be addressed. Instead, this school

:42:21.:42:22.

in Budleigh Salterton If the Fairer Funding Formula comes

:42:23.:42:25.

into effect, my school loses 2.5% of its budget,

:42:26.:42:29.

which is quite substantial. In reality, what that will mean

:42:30.:42:32.

is I have to do my best to cut things back as far as possible

:42:33.:42:37.

so that I can avoid to try Councils in Devon, Dorset

:42:38.:42:46.

and Somerset were among those who wrote to the Prime Minister

:42:47.:42:50.

to voice their concerns. Quite bluntly, I don't know how

:42:51.:42:52.

they managed to draw up a formula that has absolutely upset everybody

:42:53.:42:57.

throughout the Shire counties. Typically lower funded areas,

:42:58.:43:01.

perhaps are not seeing the gains Under the new formula,

:43:02.:43:05.

the games will go to the most Under the new formula,

:43:06.:43:13.

the gains will go to the most Not so according to

:43:14.:43:16.

the authors of a new report. The benefit that those

:43:17.:43:19.

schools would otherwise receive are being swamped

:43:20.:43:21.

by wider funding pressures. They are not recognising

:43:22.:43:23.

rural deprivation and And our pupils are just

:43:24.:43:26.

as disadvantaged, but in The Department for Education says

:43:27.:43:31.

a consultation is still taking place on how the funding

:43:32.:43:39.

formula is calculated. Are we facing another policy

:43:40.:43:41.

climb-down here, do you think, because Tory backbenchers

:43:42.:43:51.

are already threatening It is what it says on the tin -

:43:52.:43:53.

it's a consultation. I think the thing to recognise is,

:43:54.:43:59.

school funding is at It's at a record level in absolute

:44:00.:44:02.

terms and in pounds per pupil. What we have tried to do with this

:44:03.:44:08.

funding formula is try to equalise Because there has been this historic

:44:09.:44:11.

unfairness in rural areas. That has been perpetuated

:44:12.:44:19.

year on year. Just to give some figures -

:44:20.:44:21.

we didn't in the piece. Places in London, you are talking

:44:22.:44:24.

?7000 or ?8,000 per pupil. In Plymouth and parts

:44:25.:44:27.

of Cornwall it's ?4000, And it's been like that

:44:28.:44:29.

for many, many years, under Labour governments,

:44:30.:44:32.

under Conservative governments. This is the first government

:44:33.:44:35.

that's changing it. That's what the consultation

:44:36.:44:39.

is about, it's about trying to get fairer, more equal payments

:44:40.:44:42.

per pupil, so that rural schools and schools in places like Cornwall

:44:43.:44:45.

start to get the same amount I have some concerns

:44:46.:44:48.

with the formula in that I think it doesn't do enough to recognise some

:44:49.:44:57.

of the deprivation we have in Cornwall, low income deprivation

:44:58.:44:59.

rather than some of the other types We mentioned there that Labour

:45:00.:45:02.

didn't bring it in when actually the money had been there had

:45:03.:45:11.

Tony Blair decided The money overall went

:45:12.:45:13.

to all the schools. The investment into schools

:45:14.:45:17.

in the Labour years was massive. It was easier to sort it out

:45:18.:45:23.

when there was more money, though. It might have been the time,

:45:24.:45:26.

but also we actually When Labour came into office,

:45:27.:45:29.

the toilets were outside. Labour didn't want to help rural

:45:30.:45:34.

areas, they wanted to leave They put the money into their pet

:45:35.:45:41.

projects, into the grammar schools and the free schools,

:45:42.:45:45.

and actually it's all schools The right time, as you say,

:45:46.:45:47.

to have done this, was when funding was going up, when there was a lot

:45:48.:45:52.

of money around. The time to do it is

:45:53.:45:55.

when you promise to do it. Whenever you do a review of any

:45:56.:45:58.

formula, and this is perhaps the reason some have doubts,

:45:59.:46:05.

is that there will be And there will be a lot of schools

:46:06.:46:07.

in Cornwall that are better off. I have schools in my

:46:08.:46:12.

constituency that do better. But there also some

:46:13.:46:14.

that are worse off. That's why I said we need

:46:15.:46:16.

to look again at some Is it one of those things

:46:17.:46:18.

that's impossible, George? For example, David Laws,

:46:19.:46:23.

the former Lib Dem Schools Minister, said that actually this is the kind

:46:24.:46:25.

of thing where there are no friends for the government

:46:26.:46:28.

because you will take money from some schools, and the others

:46:29.:46:31.

are not going to get quite enough Do you think it's an impossible

:46:32.:46:34.

position unless you pump in more Nothing is impossible,

:46:35.:46:39.

but is it politically difficult? But this is a government

:46:40.:46:44.

that is willing to do difficult That's why we are doing

:46:45.:46:48.

this consultation now even though money is tight,

:46:49.:46:52.

even though it's not an easy time to do it,

:46:53.:46:54.

it's the right thing to do, and that's why we

:46:55.:46:56.

are trying to do it. And the previous Chancellor has been

:46:57.:46:59.

wryly amused because he recognised it wasn't something that

:47:00.:47:01.

you want to do. The previous Chancellor was the one

:47:02.:47:03.

who committed to having this review. Because in the next fortnight,

:47:04.:47:06.

Theresa May will begin a formal Then she has to deliver on the many

:47:07.:47:10.

promises made to Brexit supporters, ranging from action on immigration

:47:11.:47:15.

to cuts in red tape and a better It could be a tall order

:47:16.:47:18.

as Tamsin Melville reports. BOB GELDOF: You are no

:47:19.:47:25.

fishermen's friend! Nigel, go back down the river,

:47:26.:47:28.

because you are up Few aspects of our EU membership

:47:29.:47:30.

have generated as much passion and controversy

:47:31.:47:36.

as the Common Fisheries Policy. It's all right for

:47:37.:47:39.

millionaires, mate! During the referendum debate

:47:40.:47:42.

the industry was divided. But in the event, fishing regions

:47:43.:47:44.

around the UK like Cornwall In the months since,

:47:45.:47:47.

warnings the industry, which produces 0.5% of the UK's GDP,

:47:48.:47:51.

might be marginalised George Eustice and other ministers

:47:52.:47:54.

made a big play of fishing I think they actually owe

:47:55.:48:00.

the fishing industry something. And a question mark over how

:48:01.:48:09.

deliverable the wish list is of better access to fishing

:48:10.:48:11.

grounds, markets and quotas in a post-Brexit Britain is leading

:48:12.:48:13.

to a strong warning. There will inevitably,

:48:14.:48:18.

and probably necessarily, be a negotiated agreement outside

:48:19.:48:21.

of the 12 mile limit, But we do not expect there to be

:48:22.:48:24.

the same degree of negotiation That's for the UK fishermen

:48:25.:48:30.

and the UK inshore fleet, it should be managed for the benefit

:48:31.:48:37.

of those guys. And anything less than complete

:48:38.:48:39.

exclusivity will be seen as a betrayal, which isn't too

:48:40.:48:43.

strong a word. Making sure that fishermen do get

:48:44.:48:45.

a good deal is also key for this prominent businesswoman Brexiteer,

:48:46.:48:49.

who back in June was celebrating. With two years of negotiations

:48:50.:48:54.

about to get under way, still a lot of optimism about less

:48:55.:49:02.

red tape for business I don't suppose we will get

:49:03.:49:05.

everything, but I'm willing to take a gamble on the fact is that

:49:06.:49:12.

if we take back control here, we can make decisions here,

:49:13.:49:17.

but local funding is held here and we get the funding

:49:18.:49:20.

in the right places But a message to the government

:49:21.:49:22.

to sort out the sticking Because they are making it

:49:23.:49:28.

about immigration and I don't think anybody in Cornwall voted for Brexit

:49:29.:49:32.

over immigration It's more about taking control,

:49:33.:49:36.

taking back control. The constituency of St Austell

:49:37.:49:44.

and Newquay had the highest proportion of people voting

:49:45.:49:47.

for Brexit in Cornwall, with more than six out

:49:48.:49:50.

of ten plumping for leave. Let's find out what people

:49:51.:49:53.

here in St Austell are thinking No.

:49:54.:49:56.

No. The sooner they do it, the better.

:49:57.:50:01.

We're pleased, yeah. We need to shut our

:50:02.:50:03.

borders off as well. It's true, though.

:50:04.:50:05.

Yeah. Immigrant-gration,

:50:06.:50:09.

that is a problem. The hospitals is on its knees

:50:10.:50:11.

because of it all, So do you think the UK Government

:50:12.:50:14.

is going to get what you wanted? Otherwise there'll be hell

:50:15.:50:21.

out, wouldn't there? You know, all these people

:50:22.:50:25.

coming into the country and our National Health as it is,

:50:26.:50:28.

maybe if that stops... I'm not on about the people

:50:29.:50:32.

that are here to leave and go, but the people

:50:33.:50:35.

who are actually coming in. But there was that pledge,

:50:36.:50:39.

wasn't there, on the buses Do you think that was right,

:50:40.:50:41.

is that going to happen? A few doubts, but it

:50:42.:50:47.

seems hopes remains high It's over now to the

:50:48.:50:56.

government to deliver. A lot was made in the campaign

:50:57.:51:00.

before the referendum on the fishing industry and how we can claim

:51:01.:51:09.

back our waters. Why haven't you done it,

:51:10.:51:11.

because you can do this before triggering Article

:51:12.:51:13.

50, can't you? There are two separate

:51:14.:51:15.

but linked issues. There's something called

:51:16.:51:20.

the 1964 London Convention, that predates our membership

:51:21.:51:23.

of the EU, and that gives certain countries access

:51:24.:51:25.

to the 6-12 miles zone. We have been very clear,

:51:26.:51:29.

I have been consistent throughout, that we are looking very closely

:51:30.:51:32.

at this issue. It is possible to revoke our

:51:33.:51:35.

membership of that convention We've not yet made the final

:51:36.:51:37.

decision, but I have been very clear that we are looking very

:51:38.:51:46.

closely at this. Because there is a strong case

:51:47.:51:48.

for it, particularly If you could exclude some

:51:49.:51:50.

of the Dutch and French vessels from our 6-12 mile zone then

:51:51.:51:55.

you would give more opportunities to some of those inshore vessels

:51:56.:51:58.

who often struggle to get We heard Paul Trebilcock there,

:51:59.:52:01.

on behalf of a lot of fishermen, saying anything less than bringing

:52:02.:52:05.

in the 12 mile exclusion zone He said that wasn't

:52:06.:52:08.

too strong a word. Look, I deal with fishermen a lot,

:52:09.:52:12.

and they often assume the worst. I have said all the same things

:52:13.:52:15.

since the decision to leave the EU I have been clear that we will

:52:16.:52:22.

still fish sustainably. I have been clear that UN law

:52:23.:52:26.

will be the new legal baseline. That's what Norway has,

:52:27.:52:29.

it's what the Faroe Islands have. But we will still have some

:52:30.:52:34.

kind of quota regime. We will still have to control

:52:35.:52:37.

fishing in some way. I was honest about that

:52:38.:52:39.

in the campaign and I've not said anything different

:52:40.:52:42.

since the campaign. Candy, you seem like

:52:43.:52:44.

you are agreeing here. Is it time to be patient now,

:52:45.:52:46.

should we not jump the gun? It would be an ironic irony,

:52:47.:52:49.

an irony, if they were actually the ones who were worst hit

:52:50.:53:04.

as a result of Brexit. If we have a really bad

:53:05.:53:07.

Brexit, then my fears But where there has to be

:53:08.:53:09.

negotiations, it's not It was a nonsense when it was said

:53:10.:53:13.

in the campaign, as now people And you detected that in the piece,

:53:14.:53:18.

people are starting to realise that actually, it's not going to be

:53:19.:53:22.

all this money to the NHS. It's not going to be all these great

:53:23.:53:25.

goodies coming down. On fisheries, I was really clear

:53:26.:53:28.

throughout that there would always still have

:53:29.:53:31.

to be international negotiation. There will be annual negotiation

:53:32.:53:34.

with the EU, with Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland,

:53:35.:53:37.

just as we have now. How farmers, something close

:53:38.:53:40.

to your heart, George, get workers that they need

:53:41.:53:44.

after we leave. The government says

:53:45.:53:46.

that the industry will recruit more unemployed British people rather

:53:47.:53:48.

than relying on so many I think it must be part

:53:49.:53:51.

of our long-term solution that the sector becomes less reliant

:53:52.:53:58.

on migrant labour and And the government reforms

:53:59.:54:01.

to the benefit system, for example, is aimed at encouraging more people

:54:02.:54:06.

back into the workforce. These are jobs that traditionally

:54:07.:54:09.

people in the UK have done, and there are opportunities,

:54:10.:54:12.

I think, for British people in many cases,

:54:13.:54:15.

to take some of these jobs. Changes to the benefit system

:54:16.:54:19.

are part of that picture of incentivising people

:54:20.:54:21.

to enter the workforce. You were sitting next

:54:22.:54:26.

to the Immigration Minister there, I also gave evidence

:54:27.:54:29.

to that committee. It all sounds fair

:54:30.:54:33.

enough, doesn't it? If there are jobs, and local people

:54:34.:54:37.

can do them, why would you bring in European workers,

:54:38.:54:40.

and why wouldn't you give those people those jobs

:54:41.:54:42.

and take them off benefits? Because the businesses are saying

:54:43.:54:44.

that the right people are not necessarily those who are unemployed

:54:45.:54:47.

who we need to get into the jobs. And are we going to be saying

:54:48.:54:50.

to 65-year-old women who are not retiring until they are 67,

:54:51.:54:53.

that they have to go out and pick Have you seen the modern

:54:54.:54:56.

slavery law, George? We need workers to help us

:54:57.:55:03.

manage our health service, everywhere you look,

:55:04.:55:09.

and particularly in agriculture. Stopping you there, what do you mean

:55:10.:55:13.

about modern slavery? I do believe that if you say

:55:14.:55:18.

to people, you can eat, you can have a house,

:55:19.:55:22.

a home, a roof over your head, but you've got to work absolutely

:55:23.:55:26.

in this field picking cauliflowers, then I think that's not

:55:27.:55:29.

a particularly the way this I don't quite understand this

:55:30.:55:33.

argument that it's not modern slavery to have migrant labour doing

:55:34.:55:40.

roles that you don't think people And if you listen to

:55:41.:55:43.

the whole evidence session - it was a very long session,

:55:44.:55:49.

three hours - there were two things One is, there will still be

:55:50.:55:52.

a need for migrant labour. The important thing is,

:55:53.:55:56.

having controlled migration doesn't mean pulling up the drawbridge

:55:57.:55:58.

and stopping all migration. It simply means exactly what it

:55:59.:56:00.

says, that you can control it. And we will have the ability to have

:56:01.:56:03.

short-term work permits to allow some people to come

:56:04.:56:06.

here to do seasonal work. We are looking at the detail

:56:07.:56:08.

of exactly what we would put Will it mean that, as was put

:56:09.:56:12.

in the papers, I know one piece where it said you end up having

:56:13.:56:17.

immigration workers to do the picking, but maybe not

:56:18.:56:19.

the doctors, if you are limiting it You could, or indeed,

:56:20.:56:22.

in the case of agriculture, and this is the context

:56:23.:56:25.

about getting more local people into agriculture,

:56:26.:56:28.

there are roles, full-time roles, tractor driver rolls,

:56:29.:56:30.

irrigation managers, agronomists. Other full-time farming roles

:56:31.:56:31.

where actually the more progressive people in the farming industry do

:56:32.:56:34.

tell me they could probably do better to get local people

:56:35.:56:37.

from local schools taking Surely if those people

:56:38.:56:39.

were available, they would be doing it now for those jobs you are saying

:56:40.:56:53.

are slightly more skilled? No, what I think actually a lot

:56:54.:56:56.

of them will admit is that it has been too easy just to rely

:56:57.:57:00.

on migrant labour and have The farmers, it's been

:57:01.:57:03.

too easy for farmers? Yes, and actually this is where,

:57:04.:57:10.

there is a very interesting discussion to be had

:57:11.:57:13.

about whether we have, yes, some permits in a controlled way

:57:14.:57:15.

for seasonal labour where we can't But I think the quid pro quo

:57:16.:57:18.

for that should be farm businesses trying a bit harder to get girls

:57:19.:57:22.

and boys from local schools, when they leave at 16,

:57:23.:57:24.

entering as apprentices. Candy makes the point that it's

:57:25.:57:26.

a young person's job, You couldn't be expected to have

:57:27.:57:29.

arthritis or some kind of issue, the elderly, and doing that

:57:30.:57:33.

sort of job. And also do farmers

:57:34.:57:35.

necessarily want certain types It tends to be, although there

:57:36.:57:37.

are older people who are actually very fit and a lot of them

:57:38.:57:42.

want to go and pick fruit. Often people who have retired

:57:43.:57:45.

want to supplement their pension with a bit of extra income,

:57:46.:57:56.

they do actually enjoy There are examples

:57:57.:57:59.

of this at all farms. Candy, can Labour now

:58:00.:58:08.

do anything to change the course of Brexit,

:58:09.:58:10.

do you think? For those who are the 48ers,

:58:11.:58:12.

of which I was one, strongly in favour of Remain,

:58:13.:58:17.

I hope that this hard Brexit which is a road

:58:18.:58:21.

we seem to be following.... Your party is allowing Article 50

:58:22.:58:23.

to be triggered, isn't it? It's probably above my pay grade,

:58:24.:58:27.

but I would say this, that I strongly hope that we don't

:58:28.:58:33.

put up the barriers, that we are an open country,

:58:34.:58:36.

that we don't end up Any opposition, it's tough

:58:37.:58:39.

being in opposition. It's a lot easier to be

:58:40.:58:50.

in opposition than to I would like to see us really

:58:51.:58:53.

holding this government to account and make sure that we have a Brexit

:58:54.:58:58.

that doesn't leave this It's time for our regular round-up

:58:59.:59:01.

of the political week in 60 seconds. Devon and Cornwall police are one

:59:02.:59:10.

of 12 forces to send files to the Crown Prosecution Service

:59:11.:59:14.

as part of enquiries into the Conservatives'

:59:15.:59:18.

general election expenses. As well as the enquiry

:59:19.:59:21.

into local spending, the Tories have been fined a record

:59:22.:59:25.

?70,000 for failing to report Businesses have voiced concern

:59:26.:59:28.

at a big fall in the number of European Union students wanting

:59:29.:59:38.

to study in the south-west. The number applying

:59:39.:59:40.

to the University of Exeter has The UK must be seen to be

:59:41.:59:42.

open to people from all Campaigners welcomed a military

:59:43.:59:49.

Appeal Court ruling that a Royal Marine Alexander Blackman

:59:50.:59:53.

didn't murder a wounded Taliban fighter, but was guilty

:59:54.:59:55.

of the lesser charge of manslaughter on the grounds of

:59:56.:59:59.

diminished responsibility. And there were more protests over

:00:00.:00:05.

the temporary closure of beds at Holsworthy hospital,

:00:06.:00:07.

and fears that the loss of beds It's such an important thing,

:00:08.:00:10.

a centre of the community, really. STUDIO: Right, let's look then

:00:11.:00:22.

at election spending. Is it possible, George,

:00:23.:00:24.

that at the end of this process and investigation,

:00:25.:00:28.

we might have to see some I don't think that's

:00:29.:00:30.

likely, and I don't think What's happened here,

:00:31.:00:35.

is there is an investigation They are looking at all of the seats

:00:36.:00:41.

where volunteers went It shouldn't have happened,

:00:42.:00:45.

though, should it? The Labour Party at the last

:00:46.:00:51.

election bussed in activists from Plymouth for some

:00:52.:00:57.

of their campaign days. You don't force people to declare

:00:58.:00:59.

the petrol if they drive from one But we were not hauled

:01:00.:01:04.

into the High Court having to produce our receipts

:01:05.:01:09.

and our expenditure. The Conservative Party have

:01:10.:01:11.

left your MPs out to dry. I think the way they are behaving

:01:12.:01:13.

and the way they have The truth here is that this

:01:14.:01:16.

was a national expense. The party said they were going

:01:17.:01:24.

to declare it nationally, so they told all those MPs not

:01:25.:01:29.

to declare it locally. So local MPs, it's do with the way

:01:30.:01:33.

it was organised nationally. It's a national expense, and that's

:01:34.:01:37.

the way it has been accepted. It was a national expense

:01:38.:01:40.

and declared nationally, It's coming up to the end

:01:41.:01:42.

of our programme, Sunday Politics Thanks to both of my

:01:43.:01:49.

guests, Candy and George. you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back

:01:50.:01:51.

to you. So, can George Osborne stay

:01:52.:02:00.

on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force

:02:01.:02:03.

a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas

:02:04.:02:07.

and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?

:02:08.:02:21.

They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.

:02:22.:02:26.

Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it

:02:27.:02:31.

was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's

:02:32.:02:35.

Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May

:02:36.:02:42.

on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.

:02:43.:02:46.

But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP

:02:47.:02:50.

for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,

:02:51.:02:52.

Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of

:02:53.:02:55.

While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,

:02:56.:03:01.

an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him

:03:02.:03:04.

Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow

:03:05.:03:09.

at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,

:03:10.:03:11.

And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,

:03:12.:03:19.

he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking

:03:20.:03:25.

around ?750,000 since last summer.

:03:26.:03:30.

So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,

:03:31.:03:39.

though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow

:03:40.:03:43.

MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that

:03:44.:03:48.

kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy

:03:49.:03:52.

about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting

:03:53.:03:57.

appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre

:03:58.:04:01.

right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been

:04:02.:04:05.

on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they

:04:06.:04:10.

are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.

:04:11.:04:15.

So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to

:04:16.:04:18.

condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are

:04:19.:04:25.

all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the

:04:26.:04:28.

degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard

:04:29.:04:34.

was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it

:04:35.:04:39.

was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be

:04:40.:04:42.

overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.

:04:43.:04:48.

But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms

:04:49.:04:53.

have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who

:04:54.:04:59.

used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on

:05:00.:05:03.

television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank

:05:04.:05:06.

account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,

:05:07.:05:11.

Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to

:05:12.:05:17.

see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the

:05:18.:05:21.

Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David

:05:22.:05:25.

Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.

:05:26.:05:32.

Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is

:05:33.:05:37.

sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I

:05:38.:05:40.

was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble

:05:41.:05:44.

journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am

:05:45.:05:48.

everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage

:05:49.:05:52.

everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.

:05:53.:05:57.

What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption

:05:58.:06:01.

about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He

:06:02.:06:05.

thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of

:06:06.:06:08.

message does that send to people about how seriously people take the

:06:09.:06:14.

role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The

:06:15.:06:19.

Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the

:06:20.:06:24.

proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some

:06:25.:06:27.

kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback

:06:28.:06:32.

there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished

:06:33.:06:36.

yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne

:06:37.:06:41.

cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and

:06:42.:06:45.

tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see

:06:46.:06:50.

already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!

:06:51.:06:57.

Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've

:06:58.:07:02.

never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not

:07:03.:07:06.

bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own

:07:07.:07:12.

future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be

:07:13.:07:16.

Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a

:07:17.:07:20.

new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an

:07:21.:07:23.

MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The

:07:24.:07:28.

Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to

:07:29.:07:35.

make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day

:07:36.:07:39.

and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The

:07:40.:07:43.

news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in

:07:44.:07:48.

your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not

:07:49.:07:54.

over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.

:07:55.:08:00.

School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky

:08:01.:08:07.

one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this

:08:08.:08:13.

through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a

:08:14.:08:18.

small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.

:08:19.:08:23.

Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not

:08:24.:08:27.

going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been

:08:28.:08:33.

on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether

:08:34.:08:37.

they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something

:08:38.:08:40.

possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you

:08:41.:08:46.

can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there

:08:47.:08:50.

are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go

:08:51.:08:54.

ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the

:08:55.:08:57.

country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in

:08:58.:09:02.

certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,

:09:03.:09:07.

the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being

:09:08.:09:12.

mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate

:09:13.:09:15.

more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in

:09:16.:09:19.

the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on

:09:20.:09:23.

schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to

:09:24.:09:27.

be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,

:09:28.:09:32.

NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip

:09:33.:09:36.

Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There

:09:37.:09:41.

was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested

:09:42.:09:46.

perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at

:09:47.:09:50.

passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when

:09:51.:09:53.

it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we

:09:54.:09:58.

study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and

:09:59.:10:03.

quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May

:10:04.:10:08.

is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it

:10:09.:10:12.

wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed

:10:13.:10:16.

Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us

:10:17.:10:21.

see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of

:10:22.:10:25.

argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday

:10:26.:10:28.

was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the

:10:29.:10:34.

speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in

:10:35.:10:37.

intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As

:10:38.:10:42.

you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more

:10:43.:10:46.

cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the

:10:47.:10:51.

industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain

:10:52.:10:54.

markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there

:10:55.:10:58.

comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

:10:59.:11:04.

They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face

:11:05.:11:09.

rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel

:11:10.:11:13.

bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two

:11:14.:11:20.

things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food

:11:21.:11:23.

bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she

:11:24.:11:26.

has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen

:11:27.:11:30.

to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.

:11:31.:11:34.

They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk

:11:35.:11:38.

and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree

:11:39.:11:41.

with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on

:11:42.:11:55.

this and the principle of continually talking about

:11:56.:11:57.

interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on

:11:58.:12:00.

energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the

:12:01.:12:03.

world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are

:12:04.:12:06.

open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing

:12:07.:12:08.

this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem

:12:09.:12:11.

in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't

:12:12.:12:13.

operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,

:12:14.:12:17.

the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you

:12:18.:12:21.

should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest

:12:22.:12:25.

explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,

:12:26.:12:29.

this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the

:12:30.:12:33.

meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty

:12:34.:12:37.

government action on this for quite some time. For the just about

:12:38.:12:42.

managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated

:12:43.:12:46.

by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and

:12:47.:12:50.

centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by

:12:51.:12:54.

the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral

:12:55.:12:59.

because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming

:13:00.:13:03.

into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went

:13:04.:13:06.

very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there

:13:07.:13:10.

was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do

:13:11.:13:15.

to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing

:13:16.:13:20.

Street. We await to see the actions taken.

:13:21.:13:22.

On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics

:13:23.:13:30.

will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.

:13:31.:13:33.

And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.

:13:34.:13:35.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:36.:14:19.

I've not given myself that time to sit down

:14:20.:14:25.

Two years ago, former England captain Rio Ferdinand lost his wife

:14:26.:14:29.

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