26/03/2017 Sunday Politics South West


26/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:43.:00:46.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

:00:47.:00:49.

but do the security services have the resources and

:00:50.:00:51.

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

:00:52.:00:54.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

:00:55.:00:58.

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

:00:59.:01:04.

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

:01:05.:01:07.

In the South West: and the party's

:01:08.:01:12.

A senior Tory claims we needa special tax to pay for the NHS.

:01:13.:01:15.

And should the Government bring in tighter controls

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And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political

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panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee

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and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack

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The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,

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but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -

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one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.

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His target was the very heart of our democracy,

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the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres

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of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.

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Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's

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close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity

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at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.

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Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we

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be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary

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response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as

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prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive

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way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and

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national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to

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whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put

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more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor

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sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder

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whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around

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the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,

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as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on

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social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the

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attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to

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the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.

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Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while

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an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the

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weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the

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world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it

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stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for

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years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the

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chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,

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so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of

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London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that

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the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this

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is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think

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from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a

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poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to

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imagine the emergency services and local people, international

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visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our

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Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards

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shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.

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It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values

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that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.

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So, four days after the attack, what more do we know

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The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains

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Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.

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According to a police timeline, that's how long it took

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Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster

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to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...

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to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard

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The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.

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The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:

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"We would like to express our gratitude to the people

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who were with Keith in his last moments and who were

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There was nothing more you could have done,

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you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."

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Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.

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Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp

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The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging

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There should be no place for terrorists to hide.

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We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,

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and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret

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place for terrorists to communicate with each other.

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It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just

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listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,

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legally, through warrantry, but in this situation

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we need to make sure that our intelligence services

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have the ability to get into situations like encrypted

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She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions

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at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out

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But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be

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..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.

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We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,

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the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.

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What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I

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can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,

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because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but

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to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80

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counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,

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using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the

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very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also

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tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring

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this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made

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available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do

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we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired

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or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being

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led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate

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on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the

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attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in

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Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin

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Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last

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year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved

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have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of

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them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians

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in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a

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gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of

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attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at

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least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.

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Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those

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involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is

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going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?

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Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least

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the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the

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only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see

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in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for

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example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the

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security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,

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Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that

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could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at

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least the first indications from what police are saying in London,

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these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of

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the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised

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community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a

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dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised

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individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult

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when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that

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they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the

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work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices

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that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home

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Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps

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like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they

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encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services

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to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for

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that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years

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there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are

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becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more

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and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,

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and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the

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ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not

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when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,

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for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have

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to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of

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these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a

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more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is

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certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying

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to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree

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certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative

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solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide

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but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done

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to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of

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communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our

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lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.

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Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House

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What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of

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Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very

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courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to

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be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident

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of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but

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also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already

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under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and

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security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get

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reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary

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security director, and just as security matters in parliament are

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kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as

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a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the

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issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling

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events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their

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lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is

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it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,

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where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening

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for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led

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to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last

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couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have

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actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would

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expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security

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matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at

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all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the

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security authorities and in particular for the police and direct

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command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it

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because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers

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this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no

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position to comment on the details of the operation but my

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understanding is that the number of people available is what the police

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and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and

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that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it

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not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left

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unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so

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that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able

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to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that

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case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't

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yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody

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involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who

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was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.

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We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were

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concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the

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attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with

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a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it

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is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be

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pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.

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To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the

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witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what

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happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any

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changes need to be made in light of that.

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We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence

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Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced

:16:11.:16:15.

the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details

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but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have

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been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has

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been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a

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so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the

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Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this

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simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that

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is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader

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of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals

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who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by

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the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in

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public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been

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reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it

:17:23.:17:25.

raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions

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should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are

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kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both

:17:40.:17:43.

in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the

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palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the

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perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was

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a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at

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carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed

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guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to

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look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.

:18:22.:18:25.

There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't

:18:26.:18:29.

know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will

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find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If

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you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to

:18:40.:18:43.

be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed

:18:44.:18:48.

accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about

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lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is

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important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview

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of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered

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view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will

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be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins

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our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on

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Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper

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that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's

:19:25.:19:30.

not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts

:19:31.:19:37.

of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the

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commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime

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Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has

:19:48.:19:53.

been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It

:19:54.:19:57.

doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational

:19:58.:20:05.

mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an

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agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies

:20:09.:20:15.

that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police

:20:16.:20:18.

cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all

:20:19.:20:23.

countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it

:20:24.:20:28.

will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?

:20:29.:20:35.

Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context

:20:36.:20:39.

of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the

:20:40.:20:44.

departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply

:20:45.:20:49.

not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a

:20:50.:20:54.

discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we

:20:55.:20:57.

all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we

:20:58.:21:02.

will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is

:21:03.:21:04.

possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The

:21:05.:21:21.

question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the

:21:22.:21:23.

subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?

:21:24.:21:26.

Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have

:21:27.:21:32.

to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate

:21:33.:21:36.

the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once

:21:37.:21:41.

David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the

:21:42.:21:47.

national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady

:21:48.:21:51.

progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good

:21:52.:21:56.

piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a

:21:57.:22:04.

substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out

:22:05.:22:08.

some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU

:22:09.:22:14.

programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50

:22:15.:22:20.

billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So

:22:21.:22:26.

50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get

:22:27.:22:32.

into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting

:22:33.:22:36.

very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum

:22:37.:22:44.

there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of

:22:45.:22:49.

separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find

:22:50.:22:52.

out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The

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Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which

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is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision

:23:10.:23:13.

of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in

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a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity

:23:18.:23:22.

and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the

:23:23.:23:25.

Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on

:23:26.:23:31.

Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will

:23:32.:23:36.

see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine

:23:37.:23:41.

thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII

:23:42.:23:46.

powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to

:23:47.:23:52.

avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities

:23:53.:23:59.

Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory

:24:00.:24:03.

footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those

:24:04.:24:10.

EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another

:24:11.:24:17.

regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to

:24:18.:24:22.

have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European

:24:23.:24:33.

regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come

:24:34.:24:38.

in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those

:24:39.:24:43.

powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the

:24:44.:24:46.

parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And

:24:47.:24:51.

if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the

:24:52.:24:57.

Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary

:24:58.:25:00.

legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the

:25:01.:25:05.

constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill

:25:06.:25:10.

and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House

:25:11.:25:14.

of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those

:25:15.:25:20.

powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.

:25:21.:25:25.

David Lidington, thank you for being with us.

:25:26.:25:27.

So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.

:25:28.:25:29.

He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party

:25:30.:25:31.

almost three years ago, but yesterday announced

:25:32.:25:33.

that he was quitting to sit as an independent.

:25:34.:25:35.

His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,

:25:36.:25:37.

"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".

:25:38.:25:40.

But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell

:25:41.:25:44.

criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as

:25:45.:25:46.

Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage

:25:47.:25:51.

was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell

:25:52.:25:54.

opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.

:25:55.:26:00.

Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage

:26:01.:26:02.

accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances

:26:03.:26:04.

of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,

:26:05.:26:06.

Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,

:26:07.:26:14.

Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.

:26:15.:26:16.

Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have

:26:17.:26:19.

decided that I will be leaving Ukip."

:26:20.:26:22.

When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014

:26:23.:26:24.

he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.

:26:25.:26:27.

"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring

:26:28.:26:30.

This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.

:26:31.:26:38.

We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.

:26:39.:26:45.

Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your

:26:46.:26:54.

only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at

:26:55.:27:00.

a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not

:27:01.:27:06.

surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the

:27:07.:27:10.

past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage

:27:11.:27:13.

certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime

:27:14.:27:18.

which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had

:27:19.:27:21.

done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering

:27:22.:27:26.

over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a

:27:27.:27:33.

more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he

:27:34.:27:36.

expected to be pushed out your national executive committee

:27:37.:27:39.

tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to

:27:40.:27:42.

answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the

:27:43.:27:47.

last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue

:27:48.:27:54.

surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came

:27:55.:27:58.

out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to

:27:59.:28:03.

answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did

:28:04.:28:11.

jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out

:28:12.:28:15.

of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear

:28:16.:28:23.

is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the

:28:24.:28:28.

party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,

:28:29.:28:33.

you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a

:28:34.:28:38.

pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,

:28:39.:28:46.

doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to

:28:47.:29:01.

rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over

:29:02.:29:06.

the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will

:29:07.:29:09.

rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have

:29:10.:29:13.

a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post

:29:14.:29:19.

Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he

:29:20.:29:23.

said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the

:29:24.:29:27.

skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't

:29:28.:29:33.

it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November

:29:34.:29:39.

the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the

:29:40.:29:42.

party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem

:29:43.:29:46.

money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look

:29:47.:29:52.

forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit

:29:53.:29:56.

test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have

:29:57.:30:03.

been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you

:30:04.:30:06.

will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,

:30:07.:30:12.

not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,

:30:13.:30:17.

he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that

:30:18.:30:22.

but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for

:30:23.:30:26.

the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be

:30:27.:30:36.

interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster

:30:37.:30:41.

attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's

:30:42.:30:45.

extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like

:30:46.:30:51.

Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I

:30:52.:30:55.

personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I

:30:56.:30:59.

will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem

:31:00.:31:04.

within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the

:31:05.:31:09.

way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr

:31:10.:31:12.

Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the

:31:13.:31:29.

problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate

:31:30.:31:30.

communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would

:31:31.:31:33.

extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in

:31:34.:31:36.

Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,

:31:37.:31:39.

as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme

:31:40.:31:42.

vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question

:31:43.:31:46.

too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get

:31:47.:31:50.

you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in

:31:51.:31:54.

Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has

:31:55.:31:58.

left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to

:31:59.:32:05.

go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people

:32:06.:32:07.

in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should

:32:08.:32:10.

have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.

:32:11.:32:17.

Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.

:32:18.:32:24.

Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are

:32:25.:32:30.

becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted

:32:31.:32:34.

myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to

:32:35.:32:38.

trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons

:32:39.:32:42.

resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the

:32:43.:32:46.

democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran

:32:47.:32:51.

parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,

:32:52.:32:56.

I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage

:32:57.:33:00.

has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants

:33:01.:33:08.

to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going

:33:09.:33:13.

to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his

:33:14.:33:17.

constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr

:33:18.:33:21.

Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from

:33:22.:33:27.

Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the

:33:28.:33:30.

opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not

:33:31.:33:36.

always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an

:33:37.:33:40.

e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,

:33:41.:33:45.

overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you

:33:46.:33:52.

are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,

:33:53.:33:58.

Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June

:33:59.:34:02.

the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be

:34:03.:34:06.

absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is

:34:07.:34:11.

right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the

:34:12.:34:14.

European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one

:34:15.:34:18.

another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline

:34:19.:34:23.

the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I

:34:24.:34:28.

have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.

:34:29.:34:33.

You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made

:34:34.:34:37.

the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made

:34:38.:34:41.

it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote

:34:42.:34:45.

Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would

:34:46.:34:49.

win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of

:34:50.:34:54.

that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas

:34:55.:35:02.

I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history

:35:03.:35:05.

proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk

:35:06.:35:09.

often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part

:35:10.:35:13.

of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic

:35:14.:35:17.

policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to

:35:18.:35:22.

sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave

:35:23.:35:25.

certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They

:35:26.:35:32.

freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel

:35:33.:35:38.

still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for

:35:39.:35:42.

Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and

:35:43.:35:45.

we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like

:35:46.:35:51.

Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is

:35:52.:35:55.

to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why

:35:56.:35:58.

can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but

:35:59.:36:02.

you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this

:36:03.:36:07.

than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten

:36:08.:36:10.

years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in

:36:11.:36:15.

2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in

:36:16.:36:19.

2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left

:36:20.:36:23.

us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically

:36:24.:36:27.

gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her

:36:28.:36:32.

record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,

:36:33.:36:36.

nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of

:36:37.:36:40.

thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the

:36:41.:36:44.

size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of

:36:45.:36:47.

thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The

:36:48.:36:51.

problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the

:36:52.:36:56.

argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted

:36:57.:37:00.

her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until

:37:01.:37:04.

she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,

:37:05.:37:08.

just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.

:37:09.:37:12.

Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee

:37:13.:37:16.

into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what

:37:17.:37:20.

people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself

:37:21.:37:29.

with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip

:37:30.:37:32.

to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will

:37:33.:37:37.

come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit

:37:38.:37:41.

Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill

:37:42.:37:44.

and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas

:37:45.:37:50.

Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in

:37:51.:37:55.

the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were

:37:56.:38:01.

Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a

:38:02.:38:04.

Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a

:38:05.:38:10.

Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a

:38:11.:38:13.

party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree

:38:14.:38:16.

with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into

:38:17.:38:25.

2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote

:38:26.:38:29.

Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you

:38:30.:38:33.

fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and

:38:34.:38:37.

see. Very well! Thank you both very much.

:38:38.:38:54.

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates, coming up on the Sunday Politics

:38:55.:38:56.

Is it time for a special tax to pay for the NHS?

:38:57.:39:02.

I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people

:39:03.:39:07.

So I do actually think a hypothecated tax is a good idea.

:39:08.:39:14.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Exeter MP

:39:15.:39:17.

Ben Bradshaw and by Neil Parish, the MP for Tiverton and Honiton.

:39:18.:39:20.

Last week's terrorist attack on Westminster has left many people

:39:21.:39:25.

wondering what more can be done to improve security.

:39:26.:39:28.

Did Khalid Masood's actions make you think British police officers

:39:29.:39:32.

I think we were all there on Wednesday.

:39:33.:39:38.

Some thoughts on lessons to be learned?

:39:39.:39:41.

I mean, Ben, you think there's an argument for more

:39:42.:39:43.

I think we pride ourselves on having a police force that's

:39:44.:39:49.

But there'll be people who know a lot more

:39:50.:39:53.

and I'm sure they will be reviewing the Commons security as we speak,

:39:54.:39:59.

whether more can be done to make that very vulnerable entrance point

:40:00.:40:02.

a little more robust, and the question as to

:40:03.:40:05.

whether you should leave police officers out there unarmed,

:40:06.:40:11.

but I don't really feel qualified to say that.

:40:12.:40:13.

But it's not in the British tradition, is it, for all of our

:40:14.:40:16.

police officers - particularly those who spend time having themselves

:40:17.:40:19.

photographed with tourists - to have great machine guns.

:40:20.:40:21.

There was an interesting debate the day afterwards,

:40:22.:40:26.

with the Prime Minister and others, arguing that, in a technical

:40:27.:40:29.

sense, the assailant didn't actually breach the Parliamentary security.

:40:30.:40:34.

But, obviously, if you look at the footage, and you were there,

:40:35.:40:37.

clearly, that body was a long way into the Parliamentary estate?

:40:38.:40:41.

First of all, I very much agree with Ben,

:40:42.:40:46.

that we shouldn't arm all of our police, because I think

:40:47.:40:49.

it's lovely they can stay there and talk with tourists

:40:50.:40:51.

But we've also got to protect those police.

:40:52.:40:56.

Normally, there is a policeman with a machine gun just back

:40:57.:41:01.

Now, how the assailant got in quite as far as he did, I don't know.

:41:02.:41:11.

I suspect the division bell went, at the gates opened, and,

:41:12.:41:14.

of course, all the ministers are coming back in to vote.

:41:15.:41:18.

And I suspect it was just by chance that he had that

:41:19.:41:21.

That's why, I suspect, we may have to look at not perhaps

:41:22.:41:27.

doing quite so much, we can do more at the outer gates,

:41:28.:41:30.

and then perhaps make sure we have a system where you come

:41:31.:41:33.

into a locked gate system and into the second part.

:41:34.:41:36.

I think the main thing is that our heart goes out to the police,

:41:37.:41:42.

they lost one of their own, and he was a really, really great

:41:43.:41:46.

Ben comes in on bicycle, so do I into Parliament -

:41:47.:41:51.

I don't cycle around my constituency, because it's

:41:52.:41:53.

But we need to make sure we protect our police,

:41:54.:42:01.

but we have armed police there, ready to take down an assailant.

:42:02.:42:05.

But somehow or other, those police that are right

:42:06.:42:08.

out with the public, they're great ambassadors,

:42:09.:42:12.

but they've got to be protected more than they are at the moment.

:42:13.:42:17.

Would the NHS be better off if it was funded

:42:18.:42:19.

Sarah Wollaston, the chair of the Health Select Committee,

:42:20.:42:23.

thinks so and told this programme it was time to consider ring fencing

:42:24.:42:26.

National Insurance to pay for the apparently endlessly rising

:42:27.:42:30.

More patients than at any time in NHS history.

:42:31.:42:39.

Worried relatives, medical staff under pressure and a political row

:42:40.:42:43.

about whether NHS funding is keeping up with demand.

:42:44.:42:48.

I'm going to go and see what I can do to shift beds and create space.

:42:49.:42:52.

Fresh from one winter crunch point, the Government already appears

:42:53.:42:54.

Experience has shown that on-site GP triage in A departments can

:42:55.:43:01.

have a significant and positive impact on A waiting times.

:43:02.:43:08.

I'm therefore making a further ?100 million of capital available

:43:09.:43:12.

immediately for new triage projects at English hospitals

:43:13.:43:17.

Something similar already happens in Plymouth.

:43:18.:43:23.

There are a number of potential benefits.

:43:24.:43:26.

The main benefit would be that patients should see the right

:43:27.:43:28.

practitioner first time, and not have to go through

:43:29.:43:30.

a complicated series of seeing different people before they finally

:43:31.:43:34.

see the doctor or nurse that can best meet their needs.

:43:35.:43:39.

But there are already fears about whether there will be enough

:43:40.:43:41.

GPs to make this work across England by next winter.

:43:42.:43:46.

And one Conservative MP, who also happens to be chair

:43:47.:43:50.

of the Health Select Committee, says it's time the NHS was directly

:43:51.:43:54.

I think there's much more support for these kinds of taxes if people

:43:55.:44:05.

So I do think, actually, that a hypothecated tax is a good idea,

:44:06.:44:11.

and I would like to see National Insurance repurposed

:44:12.:44:14.

as a health and social care insurance, and for that

:44:15.:44:20.

That is a huge change when it comes to public finances.

:44:21.:44:25.

Interestingly, National Insurance raises more

:44:26.:44:29.

For others, though, the situation is less

:44:30.:44:34.

about the rules of tax-and-spend, but about being straight

:44:35.:44:38.

If we're being honest with people, if we're being honest

:44:39.:44:44.

with the public, an up to 2p increase in tax

:44:45.:44:49.

would be necessary in order to save the NHS.

:44:50.:44:54.

That isn't Lib Dem policy yet, but it is a measure of just how

:44:55.:44:58.

seriously some are taking the health of the NHS.

:44:59.:45:03.

Neil, have you got any sympathy with your Conservative colleague's

:45:04.:45:06.

view there that there should be some ring-fenced tax?

:45:07.:45:09.

She says that should be National Insurance.

:45:10.:45:11.

I think it's an interesting idea to ring fence a tax.

:45:12.:45:14.

Whether National Insurance is the right one, in the end

:45:15.:45:17.

I think it probably would have to be income tax.

:45:18.:45:19.

You think people might be persuaded...?

:45:20.:45:21.

I think they might be, because what has happened,

:45:22.:45:23.

and naturally it's bound to be a political football,

:45:24.:45:26.

health, by its very nature, we all need health care

:45:27.:45:30.

and the amount we spend on it is a political issue -

:45:31.:45:33.

but I think, because more money is pouring in,

:45:34.:45:36.

and success governments will have to pour more money in,

:45:37.:45:39.

perhaps it is actually time to look at this.

:45:40.:45:42.

But if you start, health has a tax, defence has a tax,

:45:43.:45:46.

What we do accept is that we will have to review how much

:45:47.:45:54.

we spend on the health service, because we're all getting older,

:45:55.:46:00.

That's the Lib Dem's contention, that you need to be honest.

:46:01.:46:10.

It's not an easy one to deal with, because people like the service.

:46:11.:46:13.

They don't necessarily want to pay the tax,

:46:14.:46:17.

But let's have this debate, because I think it's clear that

:46:18.:46:22.

all of us want the health service to succeed.

:46:23.:46:27.

And it's case of not only managing the health service,

:46:28.:46:30.

And we're putting more money in, but the cost of pensions

:46:31.:46:36.

and the cost of everything is going up.

:46:37.:46:38.

Ben, you look at the Labour party's website today,

:46:39.:46:44.

on the front page, save the NHS, save it from the Tories,

:46:45.:46:47.

But how are you going to do this, how would you provide this funding?

:46:48.:46:51.

It's great that Neil and Sarah and other Conservative MPs

:46:52.:46:55.

Not just for the NHS, but for social care.

:46:56.:47:00.

When we left office, we had NHS funding up

:47:01.:47:02.

It's now gone back down again, and we're seeing

:47:03.:47:06.

As Neil says, we have a growing, elderly population,

:47:07.:47:10.

We have to have a long-term, sustainable solution.

:47:11.:47:14.

I'm not sure that hypothecation is necessarily the answer,

:47:15.:47:17.

partly for the reasons Neil's already given,

:47:18.:47:19.

but if there was a recession, for example, does that

:47:20.:47:22.

mean the money's then going to go down for the NHS?

:47:23.:47:24.

But you do need to do something, and I think you need

:47:25.:47:27.

to look at everything, whether it's is combination

:47:28.:47:29.

of income, National Insurance tax, more sin taxes - like the sugar tax

:47:30.:47:32.

that the Health Committee recommended that has now been

:47:33.:47:36.

adopted by the Government, already been very successful

:47:37.:47:38.

Well, you can think of a number of things, can't you -

:47:39.:47:43.

fat, sugars, salt, things that are bad for you.

:47:44.:47:45.

I think the public would accept that perhaps more than income tax,

:47:46.:47:48.

And I don't think we should rule out the idea that we had

:47:49.:47:53.

when we were in Government for social care, of some kind

:47:54.:47:56.

Because if you invest in public health -

:47:57.:48:07.

which I think is the other mistake this Government's made,

:48:08.:48:10.

it's cut funding for public health - so, illness prevention,

:48:11.:48:12.

then you actually reduce long-term demand on the NHS.

:48:13.:48:14.

So our obesity report, which is coming out this weekend,

:48:15.:48:17.

which is very critical of the Government inaction,

:48:18.:48:19.

says that if you spend a bit more on tackling obesity,

:48:20.:48:21.

you save a lot more for the NHS in the long run.

:48:22.:48:24.

I don't want to get too aggressive with Ben, but don't forget,

:48:25.:48:29.

we did have a huge deficit, over ?50,000 million

:48:30.:48:32.

It's all very well to spend the money, but we've got to spend

:48:33.:48:38.

So I think there will have to be some link.

:48:39.:48:43.

If we were linking this tax with the health spending,

:48:44.:48:45.

it's got to be linked somehow to the economy as well

:48:46.:48:48.

OK, alongside the financial strain on the NHS, there's a huge

:48:49.:48:52.

problem with staffing, both the Lib Dems and

:48:53.:48:54.

the British Medical Association are warning that Brexit

:48:55.:48:57.

Here's Dr Jeeves Wijesuriya, who is chairman of the junior doctor's

:48:58.:49:04.

We've done a recent survey of EU doctors that are working

:49:05.:49:09.

here in the UK, and the implications of Brexit are absolutely huge.

:49:10.:49:13.

Four in ten EU-trained doctors feel that they will have to leave

:49:14.:49:17.

the health service and will leave working in this country

:49:18.:49:20.

because of the possible implications of Brexit.

:49:21.:49:27.

He was making the point that there is a staffing crisis at the moment.

:49:28.:49:34.

And he says this is only going to get potentially much worse if this

:49:35.:49:41.

situation with EU nationals isn't sorted?

:49:42.:49:43.

I have made this point are ready, in fact I raised it with the Health

:49:44.:49:47.

Secretary in the Commons, and the solution to this is to reassure sent

:49:48.:49:51.

to EU nationals are currently work in the health service or social care

:49:52.:49:56.

that they will be able to save. Again, very just satisfactory answer

:49:57.:50:00.

from the Health Secretary. They need to make this a priority once

:50:01.:50:03.

negotiations start. I think Ben is right, but whether

:50:04.:50:08.

Government's also right is that we can't agree to that until we have a

:50:09.:50:12.

reciprocal arrangement with what's hanging with our guys across Europe.

:50:13.:50:21.

Otherwise we shall run out of staff. Not just in health service, it's

:50:22.:50:26.

across the whole industry. Wanted to ask you about that,

:50:27.:50:30.

because last week the Immigration Minister was suggesting that in

:50:31.:50:37.

terms of agricultural work, we could be up skilling native workers to do

:50:38.:50:40.

that. Is the Government likely to be banging the drum in a big way in

:50:41.:50:45.

terms of health staff? Saying we can train our own doctors and that will

:50:46.:50:48.

solve the problem? We can try, and we can do more to

:50:49.:50:54.

solve the problem. When it comes to doctors and nurses, we have a pool

:50:55.:50:59.

we can get native workers into. When it comes to picking vegetables or

:51:00.:51:04.

whatever, there isn't an massive amount of people that really want

:51:05.:51:08.

those particularly jobs are available for those particular jobs.

:51:09.:51:12.

Meat processing, factories, you name it. There's a big in my constituency

:51:13.:51:18.

where 70% of the workers are Eastern European. What we are saying and the

:51:19.:51:24.

moment is that there is enough Labour, but we've got to work very

:51:25.:51:29.

quickly. And as far as the health service is concerned, I think we

:51:30.:51:33.

have more of a chance to get more home-grown labour in there. But it's

:51:34.:51:37.

not easy, and the Government's got to be ready to move quickly.

:51:38.:51:42.

What happens if these people have already gone back?

:51:43.:51:46.

The Immigration Minister was saying to us last week that the figures

:51:47.:51:51.

don't show that. Some of the figures are up as far as September, and some

:51:52.:51:55.

as far as December. I think we're got to look through this next period

:51:56.:51:58.

and make sure that people are still coming. Barbarians and remaining is

:51:59.:52:02.

into becoming reasonably freely here. -- Bulgarians and Romanians

:52:03.:52:08.

seem to becoming reasonably freely here. Others not so much.

:52:09.:52:15.

Is this more moaning scaremongering, some people would say?

:52:16.:52:23.

No. There are fewer applications, staff shortages across the health

:52:24.:52:25.

sector. Even the president of the commission said we should settle

:52:26.:52:33.

this now, it's amoral issue. If you -- it's a moral issue. If you look

:52:34.:52:37.

at the pension liability and other at the pension liability and other

:52:38.:52:40.

issues going forward, this will not be easy. It has the potential to be

:52:41.:52:44.

a complete disaster. a complete disaster.

:52:45.:52:47.

But had to make sure it works, But had to make sure it works,

:52:48.:52:51.

because we are Brexiting, and it has to work.

:52:52.:52:53.

Some local MP's are calling for the Government to review

:52:54.:52:55.

the DVLA's practice of selling drivers details

:52:56.:52:57.

The issue was debated in the House of Commons following claims some

:52:58.:53:01.

private companies are intimidating and hounding drivers to pay fines.

:53:02.:53:03.

The DVLA only supplies details to companies

:53:04.:53:05.

which are accredited by a trade body, but Torbay MP

:53:06.:53:07.

Kevin Foster says the standards are not high enough.

:53:08.:53:10.

Barry, Hazel and Jonathan - three Torbay residents

:53:11.:53:16.

who took their battle over a parking fine to their MP.

:53:17.:53:21.

I've been issued with a ?100 fine for overstaying in the Marina

:53:22.:53:24.

I know that's not the case, because I have a ticket to prove that.

:53:25.:53:34.

I was sent a fine for missing off, apparently, the first digit

:53:35.:53:37.

I didn't put my whole registration number in.

:53:38.:53:40.

The fine was eventually reduced to 30.

:53:41.:53:43.

All three wrote at the local MP, Kevin Foster, to complain.

:53:44.:53:46.

And this week, the Tory called on the Government

:53:47.:53:48.

I think the suspicion is the cowboy clampers have become the cowboy

:53:49.:53:54.

And whilst they may wish to leave their spur marks on

:53:55.:53:59.

car parks across the country, I hope the Minister will be clear

:54:00.:54:02.

of what action will be taken to make sure they have to ride off

:54:03.:54:06.

Now, Kevin Foster has received more complaints about this car park,

:54:07.:54:13.

and Crossways in Paignton, then any other in his patch.

:54:14.:54:17.

Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement

:54:18.:54:26.

with the company which runs this car park.

:54:27.:54:29.

Now that I've parked, I am entering into a legal agreement

:54:30.:54:31.

with the company which runs this car park.

:54:32.:54:34.

I have to abide by their terms and conditions.

:54:35.:54:36.

If I don't abide by these terms and conditions -

:54:37.:54:47.

staying late for example - DVLA will send my registered

:54:48.:54:50.

details to the company which runs this car park,

:54:51.:54:53.

and then the company will issue me a fine.

:54:54.:54:58.

That's all very well if the car park's being run properly.

:54:59.:55:01.

But some MPs say they know of cases around

:55:02.:55:05.

the country where drivers are being penalised unfairly.

:55:06.:55:08.

People are duped into false charges and harassed

:55:09.:55:10.

by firms who manage, somehow, to get hold

:55:11.:55:13.

of their personal information, whether through the DVLA, or,

:55:14.:55:18.

as mentioned earlier, through other sources.

:55:19.:55:21.

But a trade body which oversees private operators says the DVLA

:55:22.:55:25.

will only pass on details to companies which have

:55:26.:55:28.

We've had a great number of members who halve applied

:55:29.:55:33.

Unfortunately, anyone who isn't willing to work within the confines

:55:34.:55:37.

of our code of practice or engage to the high standards

:55:38.:55:40.

that we require, doesn't get past the first stage.

:55:41.:55:45.

Premier Park, which runs this car park, says it's happy

:55:46.:55:48.

to meet with Mr Foster to discuss any issues.

:55:49.:55:52.

But only time will tell us if the Government

:55:53.:55:54.

will change its regulations in the sector.

:55:55.:56:06.

Ben, because you're a famous cyclist, do you have any sympathy

:56:07.:56:11.

with these motorists? I've had examples of over officious

:56:12.:56:16.

car parking agencies chasing constituents. There's balance to be

:56:17.:56:22.

struck care. You had a guy on the film there from the organisations

:56:23.:56:25.

that represents car parks that says we won't accept some of these

:56:26.:56:32.

operators into our operation. I think that's the route to go down.

:56:33.:56:36.

But people shouldn't be able to get away with breaking the law are

:56:37.:56:40.

taking up a parking space owners could use when they haven't paid for

:56:41.:56:46.

it. There's balance to be made. Is the balance correct?

:56:47.:56:50.

Not quite, they come in and I as quickly as they can, they don't get

:56:51.:56:54.

as much leeway, not as much as public car parks would. I think they

:56:55.:56:59.

need to be restricted in their ambitions, echoes they're very much,

:57:00.:57:02.

the quicker they get you, the more they can charge you. They're

:57:03.:57:07.

enormous charges people are having to pay, ridiculous fines.

:57:08.:57:13.

At the trade body enough though? Probably not, and probably not

:57:14.:57:17.

perhaps making enough noise about it. I also think perhaps, sometimes,

:57:18.:57:27.

where are the revenues going from these vast charges? Mummers Day of

:57:28.:57:36.

it's another issue, because in the end looks as if they're penalised

:57:37.:57:40.

hugely with massive fines, I think they've got a fair gripe.

:57:41.:57:42.

Time now for our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:57:43.:57:50.

A public meeting was told about last-ditch efforts

:57:51.:57:52.

to save the only care home on the Isles of Scilly.

:57:53.:57:55.

If the home closes, elderly people face a move to the mainland.

:57:56.:57:59.

It's splitting my family, it is making them out of reach.

:58:00.:58:02.

When they need me, they need me, and I won't be there.

:58:03.:58:07.

Devon County Council's Tory leader is launching a petition to get

:58:08.:58:10.

school funding debated again in the Commons.

:58:11.:58:13.

Tory backbenchers are far from happy with the way

:58:14.:58:16.

the Government's handling this increasingly toxic issue.

:58:17.:58:21.

It would be a very poor reflection on us if standards went down

:58:22.:58:24.

simply because we're not able to supply children with the teachers

:58:25.:58:27.

they need and with the support staff they need and with

:58:28.:58:30.

And that's something that I, as a Conservative MP,

:58:31.:58:33.

There's been more concern about mobile phone coverage

:58:34.:58:40.

One MP is saying the lack of connectivity is leaving

:58:41.:58:44.

And there's plenty of anger from consumers too.

:58:45.:58:54.

Neil, I think you are the MP saying you think constituents

:58:55.:58:57.

are being left in the dark ages because of mobile phone coverage?

:58:58.:59:00.

Because we were having a debate, or I was going to have a debate

:59:01.:59:05.

when we were locked in the chamber because of the terrorist attack,

:59:06.:59:08.

but it is a case of making sure they share properly, the companies.

:59:09.:59:11.

And some are getting broadband, the most rural areas, will be

:59:12.:59:17.

I think partly it's because the companies

:59:18.:59:21.

And I know the Government doesn't want to go there,

:59:22.:59:25.

but roaming, so that you go from one company to the other.

:59:26.:59:28.

Because in some areas in the countryside, Orange or O2

:59:29.:59:32.

or the other networks will work better in certain areas.

:59:33.:59:36.

I used to travel across the continent, I could change

:59:37.:59:39.

countries and get another roaming and the phone never went.

:59:40.:59:43.

But drive into the Blackdown Hills, and your signal goes entirely.

:59:44.:59:47.

Not that Ben does that on his bicycle very often.

:59:48.:59:51.

The school funding issue, of course, very dominant this week again.

:59:52.:59:57.

And, frankly, a lot of stony-faced Conservative MPs

:59:58.:00:04.

as the Prime Minister was defending what the Government's doing.

:00:05.:00:08.

I did warn ministers a couple of years ago when they said

:00:09.:00:12.

they said they wanted to change the formula -

:00:13.:00:14.

which we all support - at the same time cutting

:00:15.:00:16.

funding to schools overall, as they are, by 7%.

:00:17.:00:21.

It's the very worst time to fiddle around with the formula,

:00:22.:00:24.

because you create more losers than you do winners,

:00:25.:00:29.

Because nobody's really happy with the thing, are they?

:00:30.:00:35.

The main thing is that we invested more in schools across the piece,

:00:36.:00:38.

so all schools were getting more money...

:00:39.:00:40.

We did have more money, because we were running,

:00:41.:00:44.

until the financial crash, we had the long this period

:00:45.:00:46.

of sustained growth, noninflationary growth,

:00:47.:00:47.

Yeah, but not because of the overspending, Neil,

:00:48.:00:53.

because of the global financial crash.

:00:54.:00:55.

The schools weren't complaining, the schools were getting better,

:00:56.:01:01.

attainment was getting better, and investment was going in.

:01:02.:01:05.

We've now seen the biggest cut since the 1950s in our schools,

:01:06.:01:08.

and this lot are doing nothing about it.

:01:09.:01:14.

Neil, are you as cross as many of your colleagues?

:01:15.:01:16.

Pretty well, because I think it's a case of more money and some

:01:17.:01:19.

The trouble is partly one of the problems is the Government's

:01:20.:01:23.

been to prescriptive or the county and how we spend it

:01:24.:01:25.

So it's combination assembly that is, because we make sure

:01:26.:01:29.

at the next generation is better educated than we were and so on.

:01:30.:01:32.

Is the Government going to get out of this hole, do you think?

:01:33.:01:35.

I would have thought that if we upped the temperature,

:01:36.:01:37.

we would get something out of the Government.

:01:38.:01:39.

It doesn't have a very big majority, and think perhaps

:01:40.:01:42.

can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank

:01:43.:01:49.

you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.

:01:50.:01:55.

So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday

:01:56.:02:12.

at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document

:02:13.:02:15.

Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -

:02:16.:02:19.

overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,

:02:20.:02:21.

And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,

:02:22.:02:24.

will trigger Article 50, formally starting

:02:25.:02:25.

The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,

:02:26.:02:29.

made an appeal for unity at the gathering.

:02:30.:02:35.

Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations

:02:36.:02:40.

that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.

:02:41.:02:48.

At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,

:02:49.:02:51.

they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic

:02:52.:02:55.

circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith

:02:56.:02:57.

Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on

:02:58.:03:17.

that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important

:03:18.:03:21.

figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our

:03:22.:03:25.

divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new

:03:26.:03:31.

crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international

:03:32.:03:35.

trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,

:03:36.:03:40.

by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is

:03:41.:03:47.

inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member

:03:48.:03:50.

states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because

:03:51.:03:54.

that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I

:03:55.:03:59.

think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.

:04:00.:04:02.

Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow

:04:03.:04:08.

setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise

:04:09.:04:11.

Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that

:04:12.:04:29.

doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would

:04:30.:04:33.

be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member

:04:34.:04:35.

states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is

:04:36.:04:38.

effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is

:04:39.:04:41.

not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent

:04:42.:04:43.

but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the

:04:44.:04:45.

Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it

:04:46.:04:48.

ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification

:04:49.:04:50.

process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:

:04:51.:04:54.

Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact

:04:55.:04:59.

that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,

:05:00.:05:04.

there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and

:05:05.:05:09.

quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and

:05:10.:05:14.

disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries

:05:15.:05:19.

celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful

:05:20.:05:22.

movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not

:05:23.:05:29.

there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there

:05:30.:05:33.

now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that

:05:34.:05:39.

we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!

:05:40.:05:45.

I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place

:05:46.:05:51.

envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why

:05:52.:05:54.

people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look

:05:55.:06:00.

at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not

:06:01.:06:05.

possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they

:06:06.:06:12.

will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?

:06:13.:06:16.

I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be

:06:17.:06:20.

surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal

:06:21.:06:23.

decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to

:06:24.:06:28.

buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed

:06:29.:06:32.

and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can

:06:33.:06:35.

happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany

:06:36.:06:39.

which could really result in a change of Government... That is the

:06:40.:06:52.

big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw

:06:53.:06:55.

that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into

:06:56.:06:57.

the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory

:06:58.:07:00.

observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,

:07:01.:07:03.

if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional

:07:04.:07:07.

agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council

:07:08.:07:10.

doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French

:07:11.:07:14.

elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second

:07:15.:07:17.

round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be

:07:18.:07:24.

representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine

:07:25.:07:29.

le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a

:07:30.:07:33.

party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to

:07:34.:07:37.

sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote

:07:38.:07:42.

d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that

:07:43.:07:45.

and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no

:07:46.:07:51.

longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form

:07:52.:08:04.

a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you

:08:05.:08:07.

know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we

:08:08.:08:10.

are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big

:08:11.:08:13.

task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional

:08:14.:08:15.

arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year

:08:16.:08:19.

timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us

:08:20.:08:23.

on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a

:08:24.:08:26.

meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is

:08:27.:08:30.

going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and

:08:31.:08:34.

agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government

:08:35.:08:38.

eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a

:08:39.:08:42.

take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have

:08:43.:08:47.

campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it

:08:48.:08:50.

wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our

:08:51.:08:54.

parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the

:08:55.:08:59.

negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated

:09:00.:09:02.

areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the

:09:03.:09:06.

campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council

:09:07.:09:12.

and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

:09:13.:09:17.

You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity

:09:18.:09:23.

for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the

:09:24.:09:25.

Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time

:09:26.:09:29.

devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog

:09:30.:09:33.

about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU

:09:34.:09:44.

march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to

:09:45.:09:49.

Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the

:09:50.:09:54.

European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of

:09:55.:09:59.

national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people

:10:00.:10:08.

like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is

:10:09.:10:13.

for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it

:10:14.:10:18.

happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were

:10:19.:10:22.

lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,

:10:23.:10:26.

if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their

:10:27.:10:29.

minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even

:10:30.:10:35.

begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.

:10:36.:10:39.

Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that

:10:40.:10:44.

credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the

:10:45.:10:49.

Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even

:10:50.:10:54.

then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's

:10:55.:10:57.

interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free

:10:58.:11:16.

movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single

:11:17.:11:19.

market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that

:11:20.:11:22.

outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are

:11:23.:11:25.

pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least

:11:26.:11:27.

let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea

:11:28.:11:30.

of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really

:11:31.:11:33.

did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want

:11:34.:11:35.

external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the

:11:36.:11:42.

momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the

:11:43.:11:46.

banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news

:11:47.:11:50.

was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force

:11:51.:11:55.

from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our

:11:56.:12:00.

resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right

:12:01.:12:04.

that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and

:12:05.:12:07.

that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining

:12:08.:12:11.

movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we

:12:12.:12:17.

will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course

:12:18.:12:20.

those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been

:12:21.:12:25.

such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she

:12:26.:12:29.

blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about

:12:30.:12:35.

this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's

:12:36.:12:42.

job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think

:12:43.:12:45.

you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and

:12:46.:12:50.

everywhere else where there are British citizens would have

:12:51.:12:53.

responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU

:12:54.:12:56.

counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that

:12:57.:13:00.

until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk

:13:01.:13:04.

about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a

:13:05.:13:08.

better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU

:13:09.:13:13.

citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow

:13:14.:13:17.

at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.

:13:18.:13:20.

And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow

:13:21.:13:22.

night from Birmingham - with guests including

:13:23.:13:23.

the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,

:13:24.:13:25.

former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -

:13:26.:13:28.

I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.

:13:29.:13:34.

Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's

:13:35.:13:37.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher discuss the Westminster attack with Commons leader David Lidington and head of Europol Rob Wainwright. Plus Ukip leader Paul Nuttall talks about Douglas Carswell about quitting the party. Panellists include Janan Ganesh from the Financial Times, Polly Toynbee from The Guardian and Toby Young from The Spectator.


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