02/04/2017 Sunday Politics South West


02/04/2017

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It's Sunday Morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:38.

The Government has insisted that Gibraltar will not be bargained

:00:39.:00:42.

But the territory's chief minister says the EU's proposal

:00:43.:00:46.

After a momentous week, Britain's journey out

:00:47.:00:52.

Can the Prime Minister satisfy her critics at home

:00:53.:00:55.

We speak to the former Conservative leader, Michael Howard.

:00:56.:01:01.

And we have the lowdown on next month's local elections -

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what exactly is up for grabs, who's going up and who's going down?

:01:04.:01:11.

In the south-west, the government starts charging people

:01:12.:01:13.

Will it help with skills shortages or stand in the way of business?

:01:14.:01:17.

changing their minds. MPs from opposing sides give the view from

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there constituencies. And with me, as always,

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the best and the brightest political panel in the business -

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Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn who'll be

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tweeting throughout the programme. For the people of Gibraltar, Clause

:01:33.:01:37.

22 of the EU's draft negotiating guidelines came as something

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of a shock. The guidelines propose

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that the Government in Spain be given a veto over any future trade

:01:43.:01:48.

deal as it applies to The UK Government has reacted

:01:49.:01:51.

strongly, saying Gibraltar will not be bargained away

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in the Brexit talks. Here's the Defence Secretary,

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Michael Fallon, speaking We are going to look

:02:00.:02:05.

after Gibraltar. Gibraltar's going to be protected

:02:06.:02:11.

all the way, all the way, because the sovereignty of Gibraltar

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cannot be changed without the agreement of the people

:02:16.:02:17.

of Gibraltar and they have made it very clear they do not

:02:18.:02:20.

want to live under Spanish rule and it is interesting, I think,

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in the draft guidelines from the EU that Spain is not saying

:02:24.:02:26.

that the whole thing is subject Michael Fallon earlier. Steve, is

:02:27.:02:37.

this a Spanish power grab or much ado about nothing? It could be both.

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Clearly what is happening about this negotiation and will happen again

:02:43.:02:47.

and again is that at different points individual countries can

:02:48.:02:52.

start playing bargaining cards. They will say, if you want a deal, you

:02:53.:02:59.

have to deliver this, UK. Spain is doing it early. It might turn out to

:03:00.:03:03.

be nothing at all. It is an early example of how to delete recruit

:03:04.:03:10.

after Article 50 is triggered, the dynamic -- how after Article 50 is

:03:11.:03:18.

triggered, the dynamic changes. At certain points, any country can veto

:03:19.:03:22.

it. It gives them much more power than we have clocked so far. Donald

:03:23.:03:27.

Tusk, the head of the European Council, he went out of his way to

:03:28.:03:33.

say Britain mustn't deal by laterally, with individual

:03:34.:03:35.

countries, it has to deal with the EU as a block. Was it mischiefmaking

:03:36.:03:42.

to add this bit in about Spain? Those two things do not tally. I

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think on our part, when I say we, I mean the Foreign Office and Number

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10, we dropped the ball. By excluding Gibraltar from the letter

:03:58.:04:00.

of Article 50, they gave an opportunity to the Spanish to steal

:04:01.:04:05.

the narrative. Why this is important, presentation, things

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looked like they were going quite well for Theresa May when she handed

:04:11.:04:15.

over the letter, for a few hours, and suddenly, you have this

:04:16.:04:19.

incredible symbolism of Gibraltar. For Brexiteers, the idea that there

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could be some kind of diminishment or failure in relation to Gibraltar,

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it would be a very symbolic illustration of things not going

:04:31.:04:34.

entirely to plan. Forget the detail, it does not look great. Gibraltar

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got mentions in the white paper. They did not get a mention in the

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Article 50 notification. Do you think the British Government did not

:04:44.:04:49.

see this coming? To be honest, I do not think it would make a bit of

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difference. Theresa May could have an entire chapter in her letter to

:04:53.:04:57.

Donald Tusk and the Spanish and the EU would have still tried this on.

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For me, it was as much a point of symbolism than it was for any power

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grab. It was a good point to make. You need to know, Britain, you are

:05:09.:05:13.

not in our club, we will not have your interests at heart. Officials

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after the press conference, they went on to talk about it saying it

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is a territorial dispute. It is not! Gibraltar is British. It is very

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much a shot across the bow is. Whether it comes to pass, it is

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still yet to be seen. I feel we will be chasing hares like this for the

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next few years. There will be many other examples. They are greatly

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empowered by the whole process. Britain has not really got... It has

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got to wait and hear what their interpretation of Brexit is. They

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will negotiate, we will negotiate accordingly. I have some sympathy

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about the letter, the Article 50 letter. They agonised over it, so

:06:00.:06:05.

much to get right in terms of balance and tone. It would have been

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absurd to start mentioning Skegness and everything else. Why not!

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Skegness, what did they do? It is a real example of how the dynamic now

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changes. The Spanish royals are going to come here in a couple of

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months, that could be interesting. It will be good feelings breaking

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up, I am sure. -- breaking out. So, after a historic week,

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the UK is now very much But will it be a smooth

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journey to the exit door? Or can we expect

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a bit of turbulence? Are you taking back

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control, Prime Minister? Big days in politics usually

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involve people shouting and the Prime Minister getting

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in a car. It is only a few hundred metres

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from Downing Street to Parliament. But the short journey is the start

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of a much longer one and we do not know exactly

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where we will all end up. This is a historic moment

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from which there can Moments earlier, this Dear John,

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sorry, Dear Don letter, was delivered by Britain's

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ambassador in Brussels to the EU He seemed genuinely upset

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to have been jilted. Back in Westminster,

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hacks from around the world were trying to work out what it

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all meant for the So, here it is, a copy

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of the six-page letter The letter reaffirms the PM's

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proposal to have talks on the exit deal and a future trade deal

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at the same time. It also mentioned the word

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"security" 11 times and stated a failure to reach agreement

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would mean cooperation in the fight against crime

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and terrorism would be weakened. Later, our very own Andrew got

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to ask her what would happen if Britain left the European

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policing agency, Europol. We would not be able to access

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information in the same way as we would as a member,

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so it is important, I think, we are able to negotiate

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a continuing relationship that enables us to work together

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in the way that we have. That night, the

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Brexiteers were happy. We did not have a Mad

:08:20.:08:21.

Hatter, but now we do. Down the street, even the Remainers,

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having a Mad Hatters' tea party, I am not sure that is

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actually Boris, though. The next morning, the papers

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suggested Theresa May would use security as a bargaining tool

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and threaten to withdraw the UK's cooperation in this area

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if no deal was struck. Downing Street denied it,

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as did the Brexit Secretary. We can both cope, but we

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will both be worse off. That seems to be a statement

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of fact, it is not a threat, David Davis had other

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business that morning, introducing the Great Repeal Bill,

:09:03.:09:05.

outling his plans to transfer all EU law into British

:09:06.:09:07.

law to change later, It is not without its critics

:09:08.:09:09.

but the Brexit Secretary said, among other benefits,

:09:10.:09:15.

it would make trade talks easier As we exit the EU and seek

:09:16.:09:17.

a new deep and special partnership with the European Union,

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we are doing so from a position where we have the same

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standards and rules. It will also ensure we deliver

:09:27.:09:28.

on our promise to end the supremacy of European Union law

:09:29.:09:34.

in the UK as we exit. There was, though, a small

:09:35.:09:36.

issue with the name. The Government hit an early hurdle

:09:37.:09:43.

with the Great Repeal Bill. Parliamentary draughtsmen said

:09:44.:09:46.

they were not allowed Great(!)

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so it is just the Repeal Bill. So far, it had been

:09:50.:09:57.

a tale of two cities. By Friday, there was another,

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Valletta in Malta, where EU leaders were having a meeting

:10:00.:10:03.

and President Tusk, yes, him again, set out draft guidelines

:10:04.:10:05.

for the EU Brexit strategy. Once, and only once,

:10:06.:10:12.

we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal can we discuss

:10:13.:10:15.

the framework for our Starting parallel talks

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on all issues at the same time, as suggested by some in the UK,

:10:18.:10:21.

will not happen. The EU 27 does not and will not

:10:22.:10:29.

pursue a punitive approach. Brexit in itself is

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already punitive enough. The pressure on Theresa May to get

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the Brexit process going has now gone and the stage is being set

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elsewhere for the showdown But face-to-face discussions

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are not likely to happen Before May or early June. No one is

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celebrating just yet. We're joined now from Kent

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by the former Conservative The EU says it will not talk about a

:11:04.:11:11.

future relationship with the UK until there has been sufficient

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progress on agreeing the divorce bill. Should the UK agree to this

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phased approach? Well, I think you can make too much about the sequence

:11:23.:11:28.

and timing of the negotiations. I assume that it will be a case of

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nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and so any agreements that

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might be reached on things talked about early on will be very

:11:37.:11:42.

provisional, so I think you can make a big deal about the timing and the

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sequence when I do not think it really matters as much as all that.

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Don't people have a right in this country to be surprised of the talk

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of a massive multi-billion pound divorce settlement? I do not

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remember either side making much of this in the referendum, do you? No.

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A select committee of the House of Lords recently reported and said

:12:08.:12:10.

that there was no legal basis for any exit fee. We will have to see

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how the negotiations go. I think some of the figures cited so far are

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wildly out of kilter and wildly unrealistic. We will have to see

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what happens in the negotiations. As one of your panel commented earlier,

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there will be lots of hares to pursue over the next couple of years

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and we should not get too excited about any of them. Would you accept

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that we make... It may not be anything like the figures Brussels

:12:44.:12:47.

is kicking around of 50, 60 billion euros, do you think we will have to

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make a one-off settlement? If we get everything else we want, if we get a

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really good trade deal and access for the City of London and so on,

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speaking for myself, I would be prepared to make a modest payment.

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But it all depends on the deal we get. What would modest be? Oh, I

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cannot give you a figure. We are right at the start of the

:13:21.:13:23.

negotiations. I do not think that would be agreed until near the end.

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The EU says that if there is a transition period of several years

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after the negotiations, and there is more talk of that, the UK must

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remain subject to the free movement of peoples and the jurisdiction of

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the European Court of Justice, would that be acceptable to you? It

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depends on the nature of the transitional agreement. We are

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getting well ahead of ourselves here. You cannot, I think, for any

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judgment as to whether there should be a transitional stage until you

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know what the final deal is. If there is to be a final deal. And

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then you know how long it might take to implement that deal. That is

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something I think that it is really rather futile to talk about at this

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stage. It may become relevant, depending on the nature of the deal,

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and that is the proper time to talk about it and decide what the answer

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to the questions you pose might be. Except the EU has laid this out in

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its negotiation mandate and it is reasonable to ask people like

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yourself, should we accept that? It is reasonable for me to say, they

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will raise all sorts of things in their negotiating mandate and we do

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not need to form a view of all of them at this stage. Let me try

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another one. The EU says if they do agree what you have called a

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comprehensive free trade deal, we would have to accept EU constraints

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on state aid and taxes like VAT and corporation tax. Would you accept

:14:59.:15:05.

that? Again, I am not sure quite what they have in mind on that. We

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will be an independent country when we leave and we will make our own

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decisions about those matters. Not according to know that -- to the

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negotiating mandate. As I have said, they can put all sorts of things in

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the negotiating guidelines, it does not mean we have to agree with them.

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No doubt that is something we can discuss in the context of a free

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trade agreement. If we get a free trade agreement, that is very

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important for them as well as for us, and we can talk about some of

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the things you have just mentioned. Can you please leave a 20 without

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having repatriated full control of migration, taxis and the law? I

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think we will have repatriated all three of those things by the time of

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the next general election. How high would you rate the chances of no

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deal, and does that prospect worry you? I think the chances are we will

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get the deal, and I think the chances are we will get a good deal,

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because that is in the interests of both sides of this negotiation. But

:16:22.:16:28.

it is not the end of the world if we do not get a deal. Most trade in the

:16:29.:16:33.

world is carried out under World Trade Organisation rules. We would

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be perfectly OK if we traded with the European Union, as with

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everybody else, under World Trade Organisation rules. It is better to

:16:43.:16:46.

get the deal, and I think we will get the deal, because it is in the

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interests of both. Let me ask you about Gibraltar. You have campaigned

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in Gibraltar when the sovereignty issue came up under the Tony Blair

:16:55.:16:59.

government. The EU says that Spain should have a veto on whether any

:17:00.:17:05.

free-trade deal should apply to the Rock. How should the British

:17:06.:17:10.

government replied to that? As it has responded, by making it

:17:11.:17:15.

absolutely clear that we will stand by Gibraltar. 35 years ago this

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week, Andrew, another woman Prime Minister Centre task force is

:17:23.:17:25.

halfway across the world to protect another small group of British

:17:26.:17:28.

people against another Spanish-speaking country. I am

:17:29.:17:34.

absolutely clear that our current woman Prime Minister will show the

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same resolve in relation to Gibraltar as her predecessor did.

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This is not about Spain invading Gibraltar, it is not even about

:17:50.:17:51.

sovereignty, it is about Spain having a veto over whether any

:17:52.:17:53.

free-trade deal that the UK makes with the EU should also apply to

:17:54.:17:57.

Gibraltar. On that issue, how should the British government respond? The

:17:58.:18:03.

British government should show resolve. It is not in the interests

:18:04.:18:08.

of Spain, really, to interfere with free trade to Gibraltar. 10,000

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people who live in Spain working Gibraltar. That is a very important

:18:13.:18:17.

Spanish interest, so I am very confident that in the end, we will

:18:18.:18:22.

be able to look after all the interests of Gibraltar, including

:18:23.:18:27.

free trade. Michael Howard, thank you for joining us from Kent this

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morning. Although sometimes it seems

:18:29.:18:31.

like everyone has forgotten, there are things happening

:18:32.:18:33.

other than Brexit. In less than five weeks' time,

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there will be a round of important domestic elections and there's a lot

:18:36.:18:38.

up for grabs. Local elections take place

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on the 4th of May in England, In England, there are elections

:18:42.:18:44.

in 34 councils, with 2,370 The majority are county councils,

:18:45.:18:48.

usually areas of strength Large cities where Labour usually

:18:49.:18:55.

fares better are not Six regions of England will also

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hold elections for newly created combined authority mayors,

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and there will be contests for directly elected mayors,

:19:07.:19:08.

with voters in Manchester, Liverpool and the West Midlands

:19:09.:19:15.

among those going to the polls. In Scotland, every seat in all 32

:19:16.:19:18.

councils are being contested, many of them affected

:19:19.:19:20.

by boundary changes. Since these seats were last

:19:21.:19:23.

contested, Labour lost all but one Meanwhile, every seat in each

:19:24.:19:26.

of Wales' 22 councils All but one was last elected

:19:27.:19:31.

in 2012 in what was a very strong year for Labour,

:19:32.:19:37.

though independent candidates currently hold

:19:38.:19:39.

a quarter of council seats. According to the latest

:19:40.:19:41.

calculations by Plymouth University Election Centre,

:19:42.:19:43.

the Tories are predicted to increase their tally by 50 seats,

:19:44.:19:49.

despite being in government, But the dramatic story in England

:19:50.:19:51.

looks to be with the other parties, with the Lib-Dems possibly winning

:19:52.:19:58.

100 seats, while Ukip could be seeing a fall,

:19:59.:20:00.

predicted to lose 100 seats. Though the proportional system

:20:01.:20:05.

usually makes big changes less likely in Scotland,

:20:06.:20:07.

the SNP is predicted to increase both the number of seats

:20:08.:20:11.

they hold, and the number In Wales, Labour is defending a high

:20:12.:20:13.

water mark in support. Last year's Welsh Assembly elections

:20:14.:20:22.

suggest the only way is down, with all the parties making modest

:20:23.:20:25.

gains at Labour's expense. Joining me now is the BBC's

:20:26.:20:27.

very own elections guru, Professor John Curtice

:20:28.:20:29.

of the University of Strathclyde. Good to see you again. Let's start

:20:30.:20:37.

with England. How bad are the selection is going to be for Labour?

:20:38.:20:41.

Labourer not defending a great deal because this is for the most part

:20:42.:20:46.

rural England. The only control three of the council they are

:20:47.:20:50.

defending and they are only defending around 500 seats, I nearly

:20:51.:20:55.

a quarter are in one county, Durham. Labour's position in the opinion

:20:56.:20:59.

polls is weakened over the last 12 months and if you compare the

:21:00.:21:02.

position in the opinion polls now with where they were in the spring

:21:03.:21:14.

of 2013 when these seats in England were last fought, we are talking

:21:15.:21:17.

about a 12 point swing from Labour to conservative. The estimate of 50

:21:18.:21:19.

losses may be somewhat optimistic for Labour. Of the three council

:21:20.:21:22.

areas they control, two of them, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire,

:21:23.:21:26.

could be lost, leaving labourer with virtually a duck as far as council

:21:27.:21:30.

control is concerned in these elections in England. In England,

:21:31.:21:34.

what would a Liberal Democrat reserve urgently great? That is the

:21:35.:21:39.

big question. We have had this picture since the EU referendum of

:21:40.:21:43.

the Liberal Democrats doing extraordinarily well in some local

:21:44.:21:46.

by-elections, gaining seats that they had not even fought before, and

:21:47.:21:54.

in other areas, doing no more than treading water. We are expecting a

:21:55.:21:56.

Liberal Democrat skin because the lost the lot -- the lost lots of

:21:57.:22:00.

ground when they were in coalition with the Conservatives. It is

:22:01.:22:04.

uncertain. A patchy performance may well be to their advantage. If they

:22:05.:22:08.

do well in some places and gain seats, and elsewhere do not do

:22:09.:22:11.

terribly well and do not waste votes, they may end up doing

:22:12.:22:16.

relatively well in seats, even if the overall gaining votes is likely

:22:17.:22:20.

to be modest. The elections for mayors, they are taking place in

:22:21.:22:51.

the Labour will that be a hefty consolation prize for the Labour

:22:52.:22:55.

Party? It ought to be, on Teesside, Merseyside, Greater Manchester. We

:22:56.:22:57.

are looking at one content very closely, that is the contest for the

:22:58.:23:00.

mayor of the West Midlands. If you look at what happened in the general

:23:01.:23:02.

election in 2015, labourer work nine points ahead of the Conservatives in

:23:03.:23:05.

the West Midlands. If you look at the swing since the general

:23:06.:23:07.

election, if you add that swing to where we were two years ago, the

:23:08.:23:10.

West Midlands now looks like a draw. Labour have to worry about a

:23:11.:23:12.

headline grabbing loss, and the West Midlands contest. If they were to

:23:13.:23:15.

lose, that wooden crate -- that would increase the pressure for

:23:16.:23:17.

their own Jeremy Corbyn to convince people that they can turn his

:23:18.:23:21.

party's fortunes around, and in truth at the moment, they are pretty

:23:22.:23:26.

dire. The West Midlands has Birmingham as its heart.

:23:27.:23:30.

Chock-a-block with marginal seats. It always has been. I always

:23:31.:23:35.

remember election night and marginal seats in the West Midlands.

:23:36.:23:43.

Scotland, the SNP is assaulting Labour's last remaining power base.

:23:44.:23:47.

The biggest prizes Glasgow. Will it take it, the SNP? Whether the SNP

:23:48.:23:53.

will gain control of Glasgow is uncertain. If you look at what is

:23:54.:23:57.

happening in local government by-elections let alone the opinion

:23:58.:24:02.

polls, in 2012, when these seats were last fought, Labour did

:24:03.:24:06.

relatively well, only one percentage point behind the SNP who were rather

:24:07.:24:10.

disappointed with the result compared to other elections. No sign

:24:11.:24:15.

of that happening this time alone -- this time around. Polls put the SNP

:24:16.:24:23.

ahead. By-elections have found the SNP advancing and Labour dropping by

:24:24.:24:26.

double digits. Labour are going to lose everything they currently

:24:27.:24:29.

control in Scotland, the SNP will become the dominant party, the

:24:30.:24:33.

question is how well they do. In Scotland there is a Conservative

:24:34.:24:37.

revival going on. The Conservatives did well in recent local government

:24:38.:24:42.

by-elections. At the moment, Labour are expected to come third north of

:24:43.:24:46.

the border in the local elections, repeating the third they suffered in

:24:47.:24:53.

the Holyrood elections last year. In Wales, Labour is expecting to lose

:24:54.:24:56.

control of a number of councils. They are the main party in 12 of 22

:24:57.:25:02.

local authorities. How bad could it be? We're expecting Labour to lose

:25:03.:25:06.

ground. In the opinion polls when these seats were last fought,

:25:07.:25:11.

labourer in the high 40s. Now they are not much above 30%. Cardiff

:25:12.:25:16.

could well join Glasgow was no longer being a Labour stronghold.

:25:17.:25:21.

Look out for Newport. Some of the South Wales councils that Labour

:25:22.:25:24.

control, Labour is probably too but occasionally, Plaid

:25:25.:25:40.

Cymru surprises in this area. They managed to win the Rhondda seat in

:25:41.:25:42.

the assembly elections. Jeremy Corbyn has said he wants to be

:25:43.:25:44.

judged on proper elections, council elections as opposed to opinion

:25:45.:25:47.

polls, but even if he does as badly as John has been suggesting, does it

:25:48.:25:50.

affect his leadership? I think it does on two counts. It will affect

:25:51.:25:56.

his own confidence. Anyone who is a human being will be affected by

:25:57.:26:00.

this. He might go into his office and be told by John McDonnell and

:26:01.:26:05.

others, stand firm, it is all right, but it will affect his confidence

:26:06.:26:11.

and inevitably it contributes to a sense that this is moving to some

:26:12.:26:16.

kind of denoument, at some point. In other words, while I understand the

:26:17.:26:20.

argument that he has won twice in a leadership contest, well, within 12

:26:21.:26:26.

months, I wonder whether this can carry on in a fixed term parliament,

:26:27.:26:34.

up until 2020, if it were to do so. On two France, it will have some

:26:35.:26:38.

impact. I am not seeing it will lead to his immediate departure, it will

:26:39.:26:44.

mark, but if these things are as devastating as John suggests, it

:26:45.:26:49.

will have an impact. Tom, I'll be looking at a Lib Dem fightback? That

:26:50.:26:55.

is the $64,000 question. It would seem that we should be. One massive

:26:56.:26:59.

reason we're not having a general election a time soon, apart from the

:27:00.:27:04.

fact that Theresa May does not believe in these things, she

:27:05.:27:06.

believes in pressing on, it is because Tory MPs in the South West

:27:07.:27:12.

who took the Lib Dem seats, they were telling Number 10 they were

:27:13.:27:14.

worried they were going to lose their seats back to the Lib Dems.

:27:15.:27:19.

The Lib Dems never went away and local government. They have got

:27:20.:27:23.

other campaigners and activists. It looks credible that they will be the

:27:24.:27:28.

success story of the whole thing. Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall, he says

:27:29.:27:32.

this will be the most difficult local elections his party will face

:27:33.:27:39.

before 2020. A bit of management of expectations. It is unlikely to be a

:27:40.:27:44.

good time for Ukip. They are right to manage expectations. The results

:27:45.:27:49.

will be horrible for Ukip. I agree with Tom about the Lib Dem

:27:50.:28:09.

threat to the Tories. Talking to some senior figures within the Tory

:28:10.:28:13.

party earlier this week, I was picking up that they are worried

:28:14.:28:15.

about 30-40 general election seeds being vulnerable to the Lib Dems

:28:16.:28:17.

because of the Labour collapse. I would normally agree with Steve

:28:18.:28:19.

about the resilience of politicians, the capability of withstanding

:28:20.:28:22.

repeated blows, but Jeremy Corbyn is not in the normal category. I think

:28:23.:28:25.

he is, in the sense that although he get solace from winning leadership

:28:26.:28:27.

contest, anyone who leads a party into the kind of, it is not going to

:28:28.:28:32.

be that vivid, because they are not defending the key seats. If they

:28:33.:28:37.

were to win Birmingham, say, and get slaughtered by the SNP in Scotland,

:28:38.:28:43.

it will undermine what is already a fairly ambiguous sense of

:28:44.:28:46.

self-confidence. We need to leave it there. Thank you, John Curtice.

:28:47.:28:49.

Well, with those elections on the horizon, is Labour where it

:28:50.:28:51.

Former leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew

:28:52.:28:54.

Marr Show earlier and he explained the challenge Labour faces

:28:55.:28:56.

It is easier for other parties, if you are the Greens or the

:28:57.:29:01.

Liberal Democrats you're essentially fishing in the 48% pool.

:29:02.:29:04.

If you are Ukip, you are fishing in the 52% pool.

:29:05.:29:08.

Labour is trying to do something much harder,

:29:09.:29:10.

which is to try and speak for the whole country,

:29:11.:29:12.

and by the way, that is another part of

:29:13.:29:14.

Our attack on Theresa May, part of it is she's

:29:15.:29:18.

Ignoring the verdict going into this, saying,

:29:19.:29:25.

let's overturn it, looks like ignoring the 52%.

:29:26.:29:27.

By the way, there is more that unites Remainers

:29:28.:29:32.

and Leavers than might first appear, because they share common

:29:33.:29:35.

concerns about the way the country is run.

:29:36.:29:40.

Joining me now is the Shadow Health Secretary, Jon Ashworth.

:29:41.:29:45.

Welcome to the programme. Alastair Campbell told me on the BBC on

:29:46.:29:49.

Thursday that he is fighting to reverse the referendum result. Ed

:29:50.:29:55.

Miliband says that Remain needs to accept the result, come to terms

:29:56.:30:01.

with it. Who is right? We have to accept the referendum result. I

:30:02.:30:05.

campaigned passionately to remain in the European Union. The city I

:30:06.:30:10.

represent, Leicester, voted narrowly to remain in the European Union.

:30:11.:30:14.

Sadly the country did not. We cannot overturn that and be like kinky

:30:15.:30:18.

nude, trying to demand the tide go back out. We have to accept this

:30:19.:30:24.

democratic process. We all voted to have a referendum when the relevant

:30:25.:30:32.

legislation came to Parliament. How bad will the local elections before

:30:33.:30:40.

Labour? Let us see where we get to on election night when I am sure I

:30:41.:30:46.

will be invited on to one of these types of programmes... The election

:30:47.:30:55.

date, the following day. But it does look like you will lose seats across

:30:56.:30:58.

the board in England, Scotland and Wales. What did you make of what

:30:59.:31:03.

Steve Richards said about the impact on Jeremy Corbyn's leadership? We

:31:04.:31:08.

have to win seats, we cannot fall back on the scales suggested. No,

:31:09.:31:15.

your package was right, it tends to be Tory areas, but generally, we

:31:16.:31:22.

have to be winning in Nottinghamshire, Lancashire, those

:31:23.:31:25.

types of places because they contain a lot of the marginal constituencies

:31:26.:31:29.

that decide general elections. The important places in the elections

:31:30.:31:35.

are towns like Beeston, towns you have not heard of, but they are

:31:36.:31:42.

marginal towns in marginal swing constituencies. We have to do well

:31:43.:31:47.

in them. We will see where we are on election night but my pretty is to

:31:48.:31:50.

campaign hard in these areas over the next few weeks. Even people who

:31:51.:31:58.

voted Labour in 2015, they prefer Theresa May to Mr Corbyn as Prime

:31:59.:32:04.

Minister, a recent poll said. Isn't that extraordinary? I have not seen

:32:05.:32:08.

that. I will look it up. It was you Government. -- YouGov. It is

:32:09.:32:16.

important we win the trust of people. You are not winning the

:32:17.:32:21.

trust of people who voted for you in 2015. We have to hold onto people

:32:22.:32:28.

who voted for us in 2015 and we have to persuade people who voted for

:32:29.:32:31.

other parties to come to us. One of the criticisms I have of the debate

:32:32.:32:36.

that goes on in the wider Labour Party, do not misunderstand me, I am

:32:37.:32:41.

not making a criticism about an individual, but the debate you see

:32:42.:32:45.

online suggests that if you want to get people who voted Conservative to

:32:46.:32:50.

switch to Labour it is somehow a betrayal of our principles, it was

:32:51.:32:54.

not. Justin Trudeau said Conservative voters are our

:32:55.:33:01.

neighbours, our relatives. We have to persuade people to switch from

:33:02.:33:06.

voting Conservative to voting Labour as well as increasing our vote among

:33:07.:33:13.

nonvoters and Greens. It seems like you have a mountain to climb and the

:33:14.:33:18.

mountain is Everest. Another poll, I am not sure if you have seen this,

:33:19.:33:24.

in London, the Bastian of Labour, the Bastian of Remain, Mr Corbyn is

:33:25.:33:34.

less popular than even Ukip's Paul Nuttall. That is beyond

:33:35.:33:39.

extraordinary! I do not know about that. The most recent set of

:33:40.:33:43.

elections in London was the mayoral election where the Labour candidate

:33:44.:33:49.

city: won handsomely. He took the seat of a conservative. We took that

:33:50.:33:55.

of a conservative. It was a year ago. We did well then. You had an

:33:56.:34:08.

anti-Jeremy Corbyn candidate. I think he nominated Jeremy Corbyn,

:34:09.:34:11.

from memory. We have not got elections in London but our

:34:12.:34:15.

elections are in the county areas and the various mayoral elections...

:34:16.:34:25.

What about the West Midlands? In any normal year, mid-term, as the

:34:26.:34:30.

opposition, Labour should win the West Midlands. John Curtis says it

:34:31.:34:36.

is nip and tuck. It has always been a swing region but we want to do

:34:37.:34:40.

well, of course. We want to turn out a strong Labour vote in Dudley,

:34:41.:34:47.

Northampton, those sorts of places. They are key constituencies in the

:34:48.:34:52.

general election. Does Labour look like a government in waiting to you?

:34:53.:34:58.

What I would say is contrast where we are to what the conservative

:34:59.:35:03.

garment is doing. I asked you about Labour, you do not get to tell me

:35:04.:35:07.

about the Conservatives. Does it look like a government in waiting to

:35:08.:35:12.

you? Today we are exposing the Conservatives... Reminding people

:35:13.:35:16.

the Conservatives are breaking the pledge on waiting times of 18 weeks

:35:17.:35:21.

so lots of elderly people waiting longer in pain for hip replacements

:35:22.:35:27.

and cataract replacements. Yesterday the Housing spokesperson John Healey

:35:28.:35:29.

was exposing the shortcomings in the Help to Buy scheme. The education

:35:30.:35:35.

spokesperson has been campaigning hard against the cuts to schools.

:35:36.:35:39.

Tom Watson has been campaigning hard against some of the changes the

:35:40.:35:44.

Government want to introduce in culture. The Shadow Cabinet are

:35:45.:35:47.

working hard to hold the Government's feet to the fire. Does

:35:48.:35:52.

it look like a government in waiting? Yes. It took you three

:35:53.:35:59.

times! There is a social care crisis, schools funding issue, a

:36:00.:36:03.

huge issue for lots of areas, the NHS has just got through the winter

:36:04.:36:07.

and is abandoning many of its targets. You are 18 points behind in

:36:08.:36:16.

the polls. We have to work harder. What can you do? The opinion polls

:36:17.:36:22.

are challenging but we are a great Social Democratic Party of

:36:23.:36:27.

government. On Twitter today, lots of Labour activists celebrating that

:36:28.:36:29.

the national minimum wage has been in place for something like 16 years

:36:30.:36:34.

because we were in government. Look of the sweeping progressive changes

:36:35.:36:39.

this country has benefited from, the NHS, sure start centres, an assault

:36:40.:36:44.

on child poverty, the Labour Party got itself in contention for

:36:45.:36:49.

government. I entirely accept the polls do not make thrilling reading

:36:50.:36:53.

for Labour politicians on Sunday morning, but it means people like me

:36:54.:36:57.

have to work harder because we are part of something bigger than an

:36:58.:37:00.

individual, we are in the business of changing things for the British

:37:01.:37:04.

people and if we do not do that, if we do not focus on that, we are

:37:05.:37:07.

letting people down. Is Labour preparing for an early election

:37:08.:37:16.

question Billy burqa? Reports in the press of a war chest as macro for an

:37:17.:37:21.

early election? The general election coordinator called for a general

:37:22.:37:25.

election when Theresa May became Prime Minister. We are investing in

:37:26.:37:28.

staff and the organisational capability we need. By the way, the

:37:29.:37:34.

Labour Party staff do brilliant work. A bit of nonsense on Twitter

:37:35.:37:39.

having a go at them. They do tremendous work. Whenever the

:37:40.:37:42.

election comes, they will be ready. Jon Ashworth, thank you.

:37:43.:37:50.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the southwest.

:37:51.:38:05.

Will it get employers to train up British workers instead?

:38:06.:38:12.

Effectively they are making the UK software industry less competitive,

:38:13.:38:14.

less productive and therefore giving an advantage to

:38:15.:38:16.

For the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Tudor Evans,

:38:17.:38:26.

the Labour group leader on Plymouth City Council,

:38:27.:38:29.

and the Conservative MP for St Ives, Derek Thomas.

:38:30.:38:31.

So, after nine months, the two-year journey towards the EU

:38:32.:38:42.

Derek, are we going to see anything concrete happen from now

:38:43.:38:50.

I think we will see some clear ideas about the negotiation,

:38:51.:38:55.

The Prime Minister has been very clear, and it is important

:38:56.:39:05.

for all of us that the rights of EU nationals is on the agenda,

:39:06.:39:08.

There is lots of consultation going on.

:39:09.:39:12.

The industrial strategy, food and farming, things

:39:13.:39:13.

Will we see anything specific because we have

:39:14.:39:16.

this Great Repeal Bill, which is almost a funny name

:39:17.:39:19.

because it should be called an integration bill.

:39:20.:39:32.

Won't the time be taken up with integrating all these

:39:33.:39:34.

policies into UK law, rather than making any changes?

:39:35.:39:36.

I think what we will see is clear direction of travel

:39:37.:39:39.

about the destiny the UK wants to go, and the journey

:39:40.:39:42.

You're right, the deal will be in two years,

:39:43.:39:52.

and it is only then we will get to see.

:39:53.:39:54.

I guess what you're talking about is concrete.

:39:55.:39:56.

Tudor, how is Labour going to hold the government to account?

:39:57.:40:11.

And it is getting tighter because our clock has started.

:40:12.:40:17.

But the EU said, hang on a minute, we're not ready yet,

:40:18.:40:19.

we have German elections to sort out, and we cannot really decide

:40:20.:40:22.

what is going to happen until we know what's happening

:40:23.:40:25.

in Germany because they are such a big player.

:40:26.:40:27.

The German elections are not until autumn.

:40:28.:40:28.

He hasn't specifically said that, that is just no set timetable.

:40:29.:40:31.

The clock is ticking, the two-year button has been pressed

:40:32.:40:34.

So the one bit of element of surprise we had available to us,

:40:35.:40:39.

Should Theresa May have waited before triggering Article 50?

:40:40.:40:44.

During negotiations there are two things that are going to happen.

:40:45.:40:47.

First of all you've got to decide what it is you want to achieve.

:40:48.:40:51.

They have decided that yet, other than getting out

:40:52.:40:53.

of the European Union, and secondly you have to have

:40:54.:40:55.

So here we are in a situation where our precious time

:40:56.:40:59.

is being wasted waiting for somebody to come to the table.

:41:00.:41:02.

We could come back to all of this but we have to move on

:41:03.:41:06.

because we are looking outside the EU because companies who employ

:41:07.:41:09.

skilled workers from outside the EU are about to start paying

:41:10.:41:11.

The government is imposing a levy of ?1,000 a year

:41:12.:41:15.

The idea is to encourage employers to train Brits instead,

:41:16.:41:18.

but is it another hurdle for firms in the south-west, many

:41:19.:41:21.

about recruitment problems anyway with Brexit on the horizon?

:41:22.:41:25.

A changing landscape with high-tech jobs taking the place

:41:26.:41:31.

of Cornwall's old industries, but how will government plans

:41:32.:41:33.

to control immigration suit companies with global ambitions?

:41:34.:41:35.

A software development company based in this EU funded building says that

:41:36.:41:39.

since the referendum, the number of EU nationals

:41:40.:41:40.

Rapidly expanding, the firm grew from 55 to 90

:41:41.:41:47.

With hopes to double again this year.

:41:48.:41:53.

Around a quarter of the workforce comes from outside the UK,

:41:54.:41:56.

spanning 18 nationalities, from Asia, Africa, South America,

:41:57.:41:57.

Simply because of the need to meet demand quickly.

:41:58.:42:06.

A new ?1,000 a year levy on skilled workers from outside the EU will hit

:42:07.:42:10.

Effectively they are making the UK software industry less competitive,

:42:11.:42:15.

less productive and therefore giving an advantage to

:42:16.:42:17.

That means that work that would have been done in the UK with all the tax

:42:18.:42:27.

being paid in the UK will have to go abroad.

:42:28.:42:29.

Which really is a bit silly because we're shooting

:42:30.:42:31.

A ministerial hint that post Brexit this levy also apply for each

:42:32.:42:45.

skilled recruit from within the EU is quickly dismissed.

:42:46.:42:47.

The Home Office said a whole range of options could be considered

:42:48.:42:50.

to control immigration once we leave the EU.

:42:51.:42:57.

But new Romanian arrival Daniel says it is uncertainty like this that

:42:58.:43:00.

will make others like him already think twice.

:43:01.:43:01.

They will be less likely to come here, they will feel...

:43:02.:43:04.

I guess everyone will feel the same, uncertainty.

:43:05.:43:08.

People working in my professions, people working in other

:43:09.:43:11.

The government doesn't want to tell us what the plan is,

:43:12.:43:17.

if they have a plan, and ultimately we cannot rely

:43:18.:43:24.

on a government that doesn't appear to know what it's doing to know

:43:25.:43:28.

exactly where we're going to be in a year or two.

:43:29.:43:31.

Ultimately, if we do reach the limit, that is where will have

:43:32.:43:33.

to look at a contingency plan of setting up an office

:43:34.:43:36.

It is not just the high-tech industry.

:43:37.:43:40.

Health and social care, farming, hotels and restaurants,

:43:41.:43:42.

All are sectors traditionally reliant on thousands

:43:43.:43:55.

of non-UK workers from both within the EU and beyond.

:43:56.:43:58.

And tourism leaders are warning there must be a route into the UK

:43:59.:44:01.

I'm sure people who voted to control immigration as part of the Brexit

:44:02.:44:06.

referendum didn't want people that were British to be held up

:44:07.:44:08.

in their careers are held down in jobs when they could advance

:44:09.:44:11.

because of not thinking this through.

:44:12.:44:12.

It is all very solvable but it has to be addressed,

:44:13.:44:15.

and there has to be a dialogue with the industry but also

:44:16.:44:18.

with the British people to explain that we do need labour supply

:44:19.:44:21.

to have a healthy economy so we can all progress.

:44:22.:44:23.

Ministers say the new skills levy is designed to incentivise firms

:44:24.:44:26.

Meanwhile the government's post Brexit policy on immigration

:44:27.:44:35.

was no clearer this week, with the Prime Minister saying

:44:36.:44:37.

she cannot guarantee it will be significantly lower.

:44:38.:44:40.

Derek, is this really the right policy to introduce

:44:41.:44:51.

a levy on those very companies perhaps in the south-west

:44:52.:44:53.

Firstly, we are talking about skilled jobs,

:44:54.:44:57.

and there is an incentive because what we're trying to do,

:44:58.:45:00.

and the government, several governments have tried to wrestle

:45:01.:45:03.

with this, is the lack of productivity in British

:45:04.:45:04.

workforce, but also the fact that we just had this huge skills

:45:05.:45:07.

Surely you should phase this in, then, if those companies

:45:08.:45:17.

need skilled workers now and they are being charged ?1000

:45:18.:45:19.

to bring in a person who is already skilled,

:45:20.:45:22.

We heard the software manager saying all that will happen is they will be

:45:23.:45:28.

relocating abroad and take the jobs and taxation with them.

:45:29.:45:30.

He was talking about what happened with Brexit.

:45:31.:45:32.

No, he was talking about what would happen if he was charged ?1000

:45:33.:45:35.

This isn't a new idea, this is something we announced over

:45:36.:45:41.

Most people would agree that we are saying to British

:45:42.:45:45.

employers, and we're talking about large employers,

:45:46.:45:46.

the small employers and charities pay a much smaller charge,

:45:47.:45:49.

and there are many that would be exempt from this.

:45:50.:45:51.

But actually we are trying to get employers to take much more

:45:52.:45:56.

interest in continuing training people that work for them

:45:57.:46:01.

so they continue to train through their careers.

:46:02.:46:02.

But what I would say is the obvious point,

:46:03.:46:10.

Because what would help, if there is a problem and we haven't

:46:11.:46:25.

had it described to us what problem this is solving,...

:46:26.:46:28.

Immigration, I suppose, to try to bring the figures

:46:29.:46:30.

What they are saying is that it a displacement of British

:46:31.:46:39.

intellectual property from people outside coming in to do those jobs.

:46:40.:46:42.

And the kinds of companies we talking about here,

:46:43.:46:52.

high-net value companies, they can be anywhere, they can set

:46:53.:46:54.

So this is a disincentive to come to the UK?

:46:55.:46:58.

Yes, the opposite of what is intended.

:46:59.:47:00.

It will stop people coming and setting up companies here,

:47:01.:47:03.

and may move successful companies abroad.

:47:04.:47:07.

Where a business can demonstrate there are no skills

:47:08.:47:20.

in a country that suit the demand, there are

:47:21.:47:23.

What we're trying to say is employers should look

:47:24.:47:27.

in the British workforce, people in the UK today,

:47:28.:47:29.

and may well be from around the rest of the world, is their skills

:47:30.:47:33.

today they use today, rather than take a short cut?

:47:34.:47:38.

Aside from skills, this is about immigration.

:47:39.:47:41.

A lot of people voted for Brexit on the basis they wanted less people

:47:42.:47:44.

Surely you can give a figure for the maximum number of people

:47:45.:47:51.

No, because this is about what skills are needed

:47:52.:47:55.

David Cameron spoke about the tens of thousands.

:47:56.:48:02.

He never managed to achieve under 100,000.

:48:03.:48:04.

I suppose this idea is to try to reduce the number

:48:05.:48:07.

You're right, I do not think we are talking about a figure,

:48:08.:48:18.

we are talking about the needs of the British industry

:48:19.:48:20.

But what we're talking about here is already there are very

:48:21.:48:24.

strict rules about people coming from outside the European

:48:25.:48:26.

There are, so it is not working already, the immigration policy?

:48:27.:48:37.

We're not providing the skills that British people want,

:48:38.:48:39.

not investing in the skills of British workers.

:48:40.:48:41.

Labour has not come up with a figure either, has it?

:48:42.:48:45.

Excuse me, again, I'm not here to defend Labour.

:48:46.:48:48.

Let us talk about the government for a minute because it is the policy.

:48:49.:48:51.

You're the opposition and you need to be...

:48:52.:48:53.

This would be my idea, you asked me the question,

:48:54.:48:57.

this is at a time when grants for nursing bursaries are being cut,

:48:58.:49:01.

where university tuition fees have trebled, where the incentive

:49:02.:49:03.

for young people to upscale and training is being removed

:49:04.:49:05.

all over the place, and so the preventative work

:49:06.:49:07.

the government should be doing is investing in the workforce

:49:08.:49:10.

of tomorrow, not punishing the workforce of today.

:49:11.:49:21.

But this policy tries to do that in a way.

:49:22.:49:24.

It takes three or four years to get a graduate through,

:49:25.:49:27.

it takes a moment to get a company to decide if had enough

:49:28.:49:30.

There has been a huge growth in modern apprenticeship degree

:49:31.:49:37.

level skills in this country, a massive intake on that.

:49:38.:49:47.

So we are training young people, there's huge progress.

:49:48.:49:54.

There is a legion of unemployed young people who cannot get work

:49:55.:49:57.

There is no evidence to support this policy.

:49:58.:49:59.

Another thing I'd like to talk about with the policy is,

:50:00.:50:02.

it seems strange at a time when you're trying to create

:50:03.:50:05.

fairness in bringing in people from outside the country,

:50:06.:50:07.

so from the EU and outside the EU, but you're penalising those

:50:08.:50:10.

And also, you need to go to those countries and try to have a good

:50:11.:50:15.

We're not penalising the employers outside the European Union.

:50:16.:50:18.

We're saying to employers in the UK, when you look for people

:50:19.:50:21.

That includes the European Union, we are still part of

:50:22.:50:25.

At the moment that is where we are, we're looking at how

:50:26.:50:28.

we manage to grow the skills within the country, including

:50:29.:50:31.

Let me give you one example of why this

:50:32.:50:34.

We just had an enterprise zone set up in Plymouth to charge zero rates

:50:35.:50:38.

for businesses to come into the country.

:50:39.:50:40.

For the very companies that this levy will hit hardest.

:50:41.:50:48.

So this is a disincentive that is much bigger

:50:49.:50:51.

than the incentives we are able to provide to attract good

:50:52.:50:53.

We will follow this and see what happens.

:50:54.:50:56.

As the NHS wrestles with record demand from patients,

:50:57.:51:00.

local pharmacies say they are taking the heat off GP surgeries

:51:01.:51:05.

and hospitals by providing advice and treatment on the high street.

:51:06.:51:10.

But a big cut in the funding they get is leading to fears

:51:11.:51:16.

of closures, and claims the government's prescription

:51:17.:51:17.

is limiting their ability to support the NHS.

:51:18.:51:19.

On drugs and medicines, the National Health service brings

:51:20.:51:25.

Today that figure is closer to ?17 billion.

:51:26.:51:30.

Last December the government implemented funding cuts to local

:51:31.:51:32.

Because they get paid in arrears, it's only now those cuts

:51:33.:51:40.

The pharmacy gets paid for dispensing prescriptions,

:51:41.:51:44.

but we obviously do loads of extra things that have a huge amount

:51:45.:51:47.

Free triage, you can see a pharmacist without an appointment,

:51:48.:51:52.

highly trained health care professional with ready access,

:51:53.:51:56.

free delivery services, and those are the things that

:51:57.:52:03.

are going to be at risk, and those are the things we have

:52:04.:52:08.

to maybe cut back on, will we reduced opening

:52:09.:52:10.

It seems at odds with the government's message

:52:11.:52:16.

and NHS England's message of going to the pharmacy first

:52:17.:52:18.

Nick is a third-generation pharmacist, who started working

:52:19.:52:26.

on his grandfathers pharmacy in Newquay, stacking

:52:27.:52:28.

Now he employs 18 people to work with him dispensing 1000

:52:29.:52:32.

He feels the government isn't listening on understanding the value

:52:33.:52:36.

of what the community pharmacies can deliver.

:52:37.:52:38.

Pharmacists feared thousands of dispensaries may have

:52:39.:52:39.

to shut, which reminds him of other community closures.

:52:40.:52:41.

The post office, village pub and the community pharmacy

:52:42.:52:44.

were always the centre of rural life.

:52:45.:52:45.

If you take the example of a small village near lands end,

:52:46.:52:56.

If you take the example of a small village near Land's End,

:52:57.:52:59.

no additional pharmacy for at least seven or eight miles,

:53:00.:53:05.

already they are having to reduce their delivery service.

:53:06.:53:07.

As pharmacist and caring professionals, we want to deliver

:53:08.:53:13.

this, but it's really hard to do it under the cost

:53:14.:53:15.

Lynn is a carer for her dad who is 92, and also her

:53:16.:53:20.

She says she depends on Nick and his team who deliver drugs

:53:21.:53:24.

It doesn't make sense, it is total false economy.

:53:25.:53:28.

I don't know who makes these decisions, I really don't.

:53:29.:53:30.

You know, there are posters up saying, when to go to your GP,

:53:31.:53:33.

when to go to the hospital, and when you can cut those people

:53:34.:53:36.

And they are going to reduce the pharmacies.

:53:37.:53:40.

I cannot imagine them not being there and being part

:53:41.:53:43.

and then the government have got three of us to look after.

:53:44.:54:06.

The Department of Health in a statement said,

:54:07.:54:08.

they believe the changes implemented last December will improve

:54:09.:54:11.

the service offered to the public, for example by further integrating

:54:12.:54:13.

They say they are ensuring they make better use of pharmacists' valuable

:54:14.:54:17.

clinical skills and allocate taxpayers money more efficiently.

:54:18.:54:21.

Let's look at developing the role of the community pharmacist to help

:54:22.:54:24.

aid and support the rest of the health care system.

:54:25.:54:26.

Pharmacy is the first port of call especially at the weekend.

:54:27.:54:30.

People in crisis come to us first because we are here.

:54:31.:54:33.

My worry is if that reduces, then we're not there.

:54:34.:54:37.

Derek, I know you're interested in this because you raised it

:54:38.:54:44.

But it does seem strange, doesn't it, at a time when you're

:54:45.:54:48.

hoping pharmacies can pick up the slack from GP surgeries to start

:54:49.:54:51.

We need to look closely as it evolves.

:54:52.:54:57.

You're right, I was the first MP to raise it, to hold

:54:58.:55:00.

a debate in Parliament, just weeks after the government

:55:01.:55:02.

wrote to pharmacies explaining what they were hoping to achieve.

:55:03.:55:05.

And there is a real opportunity for pharmacies to bring

:55:06.:55:07.

The lady in your clip is right, she has a service from her pharmacy

:55:08.:55:14.

which is unequalled because they are so close to home,

:55:15.:55:16.

and often they will deliver out of hours and often

:55:17.:55:20.

Quite rightly they take the pressure off GPs,

:55:21.:55:33.

and they can do great work to manage long-term conditions.

:55:34.:55:35.

But it is also worth the pharmacies...

:55:36.:55:37.

My particular debate and argument for all of last year was to protect

:55:38.:55:40.

rural community pharmacy because they are the ones...

:55:41.:55:42.

One of which in your constituency that we mentioned there,

:55:43.:55:46.

reducing deliveries in an area where there are very few buses.

:55:47.:55:49.

That is right, they have reduced the hours to provide the service,

:55:50.:55:53.

I think they are delivering the same amount of goods.

:55:54.:55:55.

But David is a really good example of how brilliant

:55:56.:55:57.

And they could do without having the cuts.

:55:58.:56:06.

Tudor, is it a mistake to cut subsidies to pharmacies?

:56:07.:56:08.

It is devastating for the little guys, the independents.

:56:09.:56:17.

If you are Boots, you can sell more hairdryers

:56:18.:56:25.

or aftershave or chocolate, and all the rest of it.

:56:26.:56:27.

Lines that are not carried in small community pharmacies.

:56:28.:56:29.

They rely on this grant to keep them going.

:56:30.:56:32.

The context for the city is just as important because you think

:56:33.:56:34.

that is where the independents are, on the estates.

:56:35.:56:38.

You wouldn't see Boots on a rundown estate, but you would see

:56:39.:56:41.

What about this policy to try and get people out of GP surgeries

:56:42.:56:45.

It is another example of, instead of having

:56:46.:56:48.

a Blackadder of policy-making, we have a Baldrick.

:56:49.:56:50.

Because they are saying one thing, this "cunning plan",

:56:51.:56:52.

to have everyone go from GP to the pharmacy at the same time as

:56:53.:56:55.

cutting and threatening the availability of pharmacies.

:56:56.:56:57.

Should Labour have done a bit more than you were in government

:56:58.:57:00.

Once again you're asking me about labour.

:57:01.:57:03.

I know that, but let's talk about government four minutes

:57:04.:57:18.

-- I know that, but let's talk about government for a minute

:57:19.:57:21.

because I think Labour's record for developing pharmacies.

:57:22.:57:23.

Look at Plymouth, and the number of new pharmacies that sprung up

:57:24.:57:26.

next to new doctor surgeries and walk in centres...

:57:27.:57:28.

That sounds good, that sounds like action.

:57:29.:57:30.

Maybe they've had a bit too much money over the years?

:57:31.:57:41.

Here we are, you're dammed if you do and damned if you don't.

:57:42.:57:45.

It's important we understand what is being changed.

:57:46.:57:46.

At the moment, a pharmacy, including the multiples,

:57:47.:57:48.

just received a fixed fee for existing and it didn't really

:57:49.:57:51.

They can do just over 2000 transactions, and that was it.

:57:52.:57:55.

My argument was for the rural pharmacy.

:57:56.:57:56.

In the high street if you have nine pharmacies close

:57:57.:57:59.

together in a town centre, the government are being each

:58:00.:58:01.

of them the fixed fee just for existing, whether or not

:58:02.:58:04.

I'm old enough to remember when the Conservatives

:58:05.:58:09.

It is time for our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:58:10.:58:15.

More than ?1 billion is to be spent improving

:58:16.:58:17.

But campaigners say passengers west of Exeter won't benefit.

:58:18.:58:20.

NHS managers dealing with proposed cuts say they are facing

:58:21.:58:23.

abuse at public meetings and being threatened online.

:58:24.:58:25.

Staff are being verbally abused when they are going

:58:26.:58:30.

about their business in the street, when they are not on work time.

:58:31.:58:38.

Royal Marine Alexander Blackman will be freed soon, after his murder

:58:39.:58:41.

conviction for killing a wounded Taliban fighter was

:58:42.:58:43.

A criminal offence, yes, but massively mitigated

:58:44.:58:50.

as three eminent world-renowned psychiatrists have stated.

:58:51.:58:55.

And the Prime Minister was asked whether more could be spent

:58:56.:58:57.

Brain tumour research on receives about 1%

:58:58.:59:02.

of all research funding for cancer, and yet it kills...

:59:03.:59:14.

It is the biggest cancer killer of children and adults under 40.

:59:15.:59:17.

That's a very handsome man speaking in parliament!

:59:18.:59:19.

That was you about brain tumour research.

:59:20.:59:23.

Something you feel passionately about.

:59:24.:59:25.

Absolutely, I came to the opening of the brain tumour research Centre

:59:26.:59:27.

And so many people are affected by brain tumours, particularly

:59:28.:59:34.

It is the biggest cancer killer, and yet we spend about 1%

:59:35.:59:39.

On Friday, right across the country, it is Wear A Hat day,

:59:40.:59:50.

celebrating this research, making people aware of what brain

:59:51.:59:52.

tumours are and what we need to do to try to find a cure and much

:59:53.:59:56.

I am really passionate about it and I do everything I can.

:59:57.:00:00.

I have had shops in the High Streets in my towns collecting money

:00:01.:00:03.

and wearing silly hats and raising profile for this research.

:00:04.:00:05.

Tudor, I want to ask you about something else

:00:06.:00:08.

because we saw that ?1 billion to improve the Exeter

:00:09.:00:10.

Is it disappointing for Plymouth when we're waiting for this

:00:11.:00:15.

Yes, they can't seem to take seriously the fact that the 15th

:00:16.:00:34.

largest city in the country has one precarious railway line and we need

:00:35.:00:38.

We are trying our best to get the message across.

:00:39.:00:41.

But the government just doesn't seem to get the urgency of it.

:00:42.:00:44.

We want to do our bit for the UK, we want to transform the economy

:00:45.:00:48.

We cannot do that with the railway line in the state it is.

:00:49.:00:51.

That is the Sunday Politics in the southwest.

:00:52.:01:03.

So, what will be the effect of new tax and benefit changes

:01:04.:01:06.

Will the Government's grand trade tour reap benefits?

:01:07.:01:10.

And are the Lib Dems really going to replace Labour,

:01:11.:01:12.

To answer that last question, I'm joined by from Salford

:01:13.:01:24.

by the Lib Dem MP, Alistair Carmichael.

:01:25.:01:29.

Michael Fallon sirs the Lib Dems will replace Labour. How long will

:01:30.:01:38.

it take? We will have to wait and see. Anyone who thinks you can

:01:39.:01:43.

predict the future is engaged in a dodgy game. I have been campaigning

:01:44.:01:49.

with the Liberal Democrats in Manchester... You must not

:01:50.:01:54.

mention... You know the by-election rules. It is only an illustration.

:01:55.:02:01.

Across false ways of the country, the Liberal Democrats are back in

:02:02.:02:11.

business -- across whole swathes of the country. Part of the reason why

:02:12.:02:15.

we are getting a good response is because the Labour Party under

:02:16.:02:20.

Jeremy Corbyn has taken such a self-destructive path. Even if you

:02:21.:02:25.

do pretty well in the local elections, it you have to make up

:02:26.:02:28.

lost ground from the time you did very well in previous times, you

:02:29.:02:36.

used to have 4700 councillors. It will take you a long while to get

:02:37.:02:40.

back to that. You will get no argument from me that we have a

:02:41.:02:44.

mountain to climb. What I'm telling you is, and if this is not just in

:02:45.:02:49.

this round of elections, it is in the other by-elections in places

:02:50.:02:54.

like Richmond, and in by-elections write the length and breadth of the

:02:55.:02:59.

country since last June, the Liberal Democrats are taking seats from the

:03:00.:03:02.

Labour Party under Conservative Party, and not just in Brexit phobic

:03:03.:03:11.

areas. Not just in Remain areas. But in places like Sunderland as well

:03:12.:03:14.

which voted very heavily for Brexit. In fact, that vote was in large part

:03:15.:03:21.

as well a protest against the way in which the Labour Party really has

:03:22.:03:25.

taken these areas for granted over the years. That is why the ground is

:03:26.:03:30.

fertile for us. In the local elections which is what we are

:03:31.:03:36.

discussing today, why would anybody vote for the Liberal Democrats if

:03:37.:03:40.

they believed in Brexit? Mr Farren has said he wants to reverse works.

:03:41.:03:48.

If you are Brexit supporter and you are considering how to cast your

:03:49.:03:52.

vote, first of all, I think you will be looking at the quality of

:03:53.:03:56.

representation you can get for your local area and you are right, we

:03:57.:04:00.

have a lot of ground to recoup from previous elections, we lost 124

:04:01.:04:09.

seats, communities have now had a few years to reflect on the quality

:04:10.:04:14.

of service they have been able to get and they have missed the very

:04:15.:04:17.

effective liberal Democrat councillors they have had. This is

:04:18.:04:23.

not just about whether you are a believer or remainer, ultimately,

:04:24.:04:28.

that is an issue we are going to have to settle and we will settle it

:04:29.:04:33.

not in the way the Government is having by dictating the terms of the

:04:34.:04:38.

debate, but by bringing the whole country together. I think that is

:04:39.:04:43.

something you can only do if, as we have suggested, you give the people

:04:44.:04:47.

the opportunity to have a say on the deal when Theresa May eventually

:04:48.:04:50.

produces it. The only way you could really replace Labour in the

:04:51.:04:56.

foreseeable future would be if a big chunk of the centre and right of the

:04:57.:05:01.

Labour Party came over and join due in some kind of new social

:05:02.:05:06.

democratic alliance. -- joined you. There is no sign that will happen? I

:05:07.:05:11.

do not see whether common purpose is anymore holding the Labour Party

:05:12.:05:14.

together. That is for people in the Labour Party to make their own

:05:15.:05:20.

decisions. Use what happened to the Labour Party in Scotland. -- you

:05:21.:05:27.

saw. Politics moved on and left them behind and they were decimated as a

:05:28.:05:32.

consequence of that. So was your party. It is possible the same thing

:05:33.:05:36.

could happen to the Labour Party and the rest of the UK. Politics is

:05:37.:05:41.

moving on and they are coming up with 1970s solutions to problems in

:05:42.:05:48.

2017. Alistair Carmichael, thanks for joining us. Let us have a look

:05:49.:05:54.

at some of the tax and benefit changes coming up this week. The tax

:05:55.:06:00.

changes first of all. The personal allowance is going to rise to

:06:01.:06:04.

?11,500, the level at which you start to pay tax. The higher rate

:06:05.:06:09.

threshold, where you start to play at 40%, that will rise from

:06:10.:06:15.

currently ?43,400, rising up to 40 5000. -- pay. Benefit changes,

:06:16.:06:24.

freeze on working age benefits, removal of the family element of tax

:06:25.:06:30.

credits and universal credit, that is a technical change but quite an

:06:31.:06:35.

impact. The child element of tax credit is going to be limited to two

:06:36.:06:41.

children on any new claims. The Resolution Foundation has crunched

:06:42.:06:48.

the numbers and they discovered that when you take the tax and benefit

:06:49.:06:55.

changes together, 80% go to better off households and the poorest third

:06:56.:07:03.

or worse. What help -- what happened to help the just about managing? The

:07:04.:07:08.

Resolution Foundation exists to find the worst possible statistics... It

:07:09.:07:12.

is not clear the figures are wrong? They are fairly recent figures and I

:07:13.:07:18.

have not seen analysis by other organisations. The Adam Smith

:07:19.:07:22.

Institute will probably have some question marks over it. Nobody

:07:23.:07:26.

should be surprised a Tory government is trying to make the

:07:27.:07:30.

state smaller... And the poor poorer. The system is propped up by

:07:31.:07:37.

better off people and so it will be those people who will be slightly

:07:38.:07:40.

less heavily taxed as you make the state smaller. Theresa May will have

:07:41.:07:48.

to stop just talking about the just about managing. And some of her

:07:49.:07:52.

other language and the role of the government and the state when she

:07:53.:07:57.

sounded quite positive... She sounded like a big government

:07:58.:08:01.

conservative not small government. In every set piece occasion, she

:08:02.:08:05.

says, it is time to look at the good the government can do. That is not

:08:06.:08:13.

what you heard from Mrs Thatcher. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown would

:08:14.:08:17.

not have dared to say it either even if they believed it. It raises a

:08:18.:08:22.

much bigger question which is, as well as whether this is a set of

:08:23.:08:29.

progressive measures, the Resolution Foundation constantly argued when

:08:30.:08:33.

George Osborne announced his budget measures as progressive when they

:08:34.:08:36.

were regressive when they checked out the figures, but also how this

:08:37.:08:40.

government was going to meet the demand for public services when it

:08:41.:08:45.

has ruled out virtually any tax rises that you would normally do

:08:46.:08:50.

now, including National Insurance. There are a whole range of nightmare

:08:51.:08:55.

issues on Philip Hammond's in-tray in relation to tax. The Resolution

:08:56.:08:59.

Foundation figures do not include the rise in the minimum wage which

:09:00.:09:04.

has just gone under way. They do not include the tax free childcare from

:09:05.:09:08.

the end of April, the extra 15 hours of free childcare from September.

:09:09.:09:13.

Even when you include these, it does not look like it would offset the

:09:14.:09:17.

losses of the poorest households. Doesn't that have to be a problem

:09:18.:09:22.

for Theresa May? It really is a problem especially when her

:09:23.:09:26.

narrative and indeed entire purpose in government is for that just about

:09:27.:09:31.

managing. What Mrs May still has which is exactly a problem they have

:09:32.:09:36.

at the budget and the Autumn Statement is that they are still

:09:37.:09:39.

saddled with George Osborne's massive ring fences on tax cuts and

:09:40.:09:45.

spending. They have to go through with the tax cut for the middle

:09:46.:09:49.

classes by pushing up the higher rate threshold which is absolutely

:09:50.:09:53.

going to do nothing for the just about managing. When they try to

:09:54.:09:57.

mitigate that, for example, in the Autumn Statement, Philip Hammond was

:09:58.:10:00.

told to come up with more money to ease the cuts in tax credits, came

:10:01.:10:05.

up with 350 million, an absolute... It is billions and billions

:10:06.:10:11.

involved. Marginal adjustment. A huge problem with the actual tax and

:10:12.:10:15.

benefit changes going on with what Mrs May as saying. The only way to

:10:16.:10:19.

fix it is coming up with more money to alleviate that. Where will you

:10:20.:10:23.

find it? Philip Hammond tried in the Budget with the National Insurance

:10:24.:10:27.

rises but it lasted six and a half days. I was told that it was one of

:10:28.:10:33.

the reasons why the Chancellor looked kindly on the idea of an

:10:34.:10:38.

early election because he wanted to get rid of what he regards as an

:10:39.:10:44.

albatross around his neck, the Tory manifesto 2015, no increase in

:10:45.:10:48.

income tax, no increase in VAT, no increase in National Insurance, fuel

:10:49.:10:53.

duty was not cut when fuel prices were falling so it is hardly going

:10:54.:10:56.

to rise now when they are rising again. This is why, I suggest, they

:10:57.:11:03.

end up in these incredibly complicated what we used to call

:11:04.:11:07.

stealth taxes as ways of trying to raise money and invariably a blow up

:11:08.:11:12.

in your face. Stealth taxes never end up being stealthy. It is part of

:11:13.:11:17.

the narrative that budget begins to fall apart within hours. You have to

:11:18.:11:23.

have sympathy, as Tom says, with Philip Hammond. No wonder he would

:11:24.:11:26.

like to be liberated. The early election will not happen. The best

:11:27.:11:31.

argument I have heard for an early election. The tax and spend about at

:11:32.:11:35.

the last election was a disaster partly because the Conservatives

:11:36.:11:40.

feared they would lose. Maybe they could be a bit more candid about the

:11:41.:11:45.

need to put up some taxes to pay for public services and it is very

:11:46.:11:51.

interesting what you picked up on Philip Hammond because he is

:11:52.:11:55.

trapped. So constrained about... You can also reopen the Ring fencing and

:11:56.:12:02.

spending and the obvious place to go is the triple lock, OAP spending.

:12:03.:12:08.

Another case for an election. He cannot undo the promise to that

:12:09.:12:13.

demographic. We will not get to 2020 without something breaking. The

:12:14.:12:17.

Prime Minister, the trade secretary and Mr Hammond, they are off to

:12:18.:12:24.

India, the Far East, talking up trade with these countries, I do not

:12:25.:12:30.

know if any of you are going? Sadly not. Will it produce dividends? The

:12:31.:12:35.

prime Minster is going somewhere too. No, it will not, the honest

:12:36.:12:42.

answer. No one will do a trade deal with us because we cannot do one

:12:43.:12:46.

because we are still in the EU and they need to know what our terms

:12:47.:12:49.

will be with the EU first before they can work out how they want to

:12:50.:12:53.

trade with us. This is vital preparatory work. Ministers always

:12:54.:12:57.

go somewhere in recess, it is what they do. We will not see anything in

:12:58.:13:01.

a hurry, we will not see anything for two years. They have to do it.

:13:02.:13:07.

Whatever side of the joint you are on, Brexit, remain, we need to get

:13:08.:13:13.

out there. -- the argument. We should have been doing this the day

:13:14.:13:16.

after the referendum result. It is now several months down the line and

:13:17.:13:20.

they need to step it up, not the opposite. You can make some informal

:13:21.:13:27.

talks, I guess. You can say, Britain is open for business. There is a

:13:28.:13:31.

symbolism to it. What a lot of energy sucked up into this.

:13:32.:13:36.

Parliament is not sitting so they might as well start talking. We have

:13:37.:13:42.

run out of energy and time. That is it for today. We are off for the

:13:43.:13:47.

Easter recess, back in two weeks' time. If it is Sunday, it is the

:13:48.:13:51.

Sunday Politics. Unless it is that used to recess! -- Easter recess.

:13:52.:14:20.

Marine Le Pen has her eyes on the French presidency.

:14:21.:14:23.

As she tries to distance herself from her party's controversial past,

:14:24.:14:27.

we follow the money and ask, "Who's funding her campaign?"

:14:28.:14:31.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by shadow health secretary Jonathan Ashworth MP, former Conservative Party leader Lord Michael Howard and John Curtice. The Political Panel consists of Tom Newton Dunn of the Sun, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.


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