02/04/2017 Sunday Politics South West


02/04/2017

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It's Sunday Morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:38.

The Government has insisted that Gibraltar will not be bargained

:00:39.:00:42.

But the territory's chief minister says the EU's proposal

:00:43.:00:46.

After a momentous week, Britain's journey out

:00:47.:00:52.

Can the Prime Minister satisfy her critics at home

:00:53.:00:55.

We speak to the former Conservative leader, Michael Howard.

:00:56.:01:01.

And we have the lowdown on next month's local elections -

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what exactly is up for grabs, who's going up and who's going down?

:01:04.:01:11.

In the south-west, the government starts charging people

:01:12.:01:13.

Will it help with skills shortages or stand in the way of business?

:01:14.:01:17.

changing their minds. MPs from opposing sides give the view from

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there constituencies. And with me, as always,

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the best and the brightest political panel in the business -

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Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn who'll be

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tweeting throughout the programme. For the people of Gibraltar, Clause

:01:33.:01:37.

22 of the EU's draft negotiating guidelines came as something

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of a shock. The guidelines propose

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that the Government in Spain be given a veto over any future trade

:01:43.:01:48.

deal as it applies to The UK Government has reacted

:01:49.:01:51.

strongly, saying Gibraltar will not be bargained away

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in the Brexit talks. Here's the Defence Secretary,

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Michael Fallon, speaking We are going to look

:02:00.:02:05.

after Gibraltar. Gibraltar's going to be protected

:02:06.:02:11.

all the way, all the way, because the sovereignty of Gibraltar

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cannot be changed without the agreement of the people

:02:16.:02:17.

of Gibraltar and they have made it very clear they do not

:02:18.:02:20.

want to live under Spanish rule and it is interesting, I think,

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in the draft guidelines from the EU that Spain is not saying

:02:24.:02:26.

that the whole thing is subject Michael Fallon earlier. Steve, is

:02:27.:02:37.

this a Spanish power grab or much ado about nothing? It could be both.

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Clearly what is happening about this negotiation and will happen again

:02:43.:02:47.

and again is that at different points individual countries can

:02:48.:02:52.

start playing bargaining cards. They will say, if you want a deal, you

:02:53.:02:59.

have to deliver this, UK. Spain is doing it early. It might turn out to

:03:00.:03:03.

be nothing at all. It is an early example of how to delete recruit

:03:04.:03:10.

after Article 50 is triggered, the dynamic -- how after Article 50 is

:03:11.:03:18.

triggered, the dynamic changes. At certain points, any country can veto

:03:19.:03:22.

it. It gives them much more power than we have clocked so far. Donald

:03:23.:03:27.

Tusk, the head of the European Council, he went out of his way to

:03:28.:03:33.

say Britain mustn't deal by laterally, with individual

:03:34.:03:35.

countries, it has to deal with the EU as a block. Was it mischiefmaking

:03:36.:03:42.

to add this bit in about Spain? Those two things do not tally. I

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think on our part, when I say we, I mean the Foreign Office and Number

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10, we dropped the ball. By excluding Gibraltar from the letter

:03:58.:04:00.

of Article 50, they gave an opportunity to the Spanish to steal

:04:01.:04:05.

the narrative. Why this is important, presentation, things

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looked like they were going quite well for Theresa May when she handed

:04:11.:04:15.

over the letter, for a few hours, and suddenly, you have this

:04:16.:04:19.

incredible symbolism of Gibraltar. For Brexiteers, the idea that there

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could be some kind of diminishment or failure in relation to Gibraltar,

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it would be a very symbolic illustration of things not going

:04:31.:04:34.

entirely to plan. Forget the detail, it does not look great. Gibraltar

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got mentions in the white paper. They did not get a mention in the

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Article 50 notification. Do you think the British Government did not

:04:44.:04:49.

see this coming? To be honest, I do not think it would make a bit of

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difference. Theresa May could have an entire chapter in her letter to

:04:53.:04:57.

Donald Tusk and the Spanish and the EU would have still tried this on.

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For me, it was as much a point of symbolism than it was for any power

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grab. It was a good point to make. You need to know, Britain, you are

:05:09.:05:13.

not in our club, we will not have your interests at heart. Officials

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after the press conference, they went on to talk about it saying it

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is a territorial dispute. It is not! Gibraltar is British. It is very

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much a shot across the bow is. Whether it comes to pass, it is

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still yet to be seen. I feel we will be chasing hares like this for the

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next few years. There will be many other examples. They are greatly

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empowered by the whole process. Britain has not really got... It has

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got to wait and hear what their interpretation of Brexit is. They

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will negotiate, we will negotiate accordingly. I have some sympathy

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about the letter, the Article 50 letter. They agonised over it, so

:06:00.:06:05.

much to get right in terms of balance and tone. It would have been

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absurd to start mentioning Skegness and everything else. Why not!

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Skegness, what did they do? It is a real example of how the dynamic now

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changes. The Spanish royals are going to come here in a couple of

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months, that could be interesting. It will be good feelings breaking

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up, I am sure. -- breaking out. So, after a historic week,

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the UK is now very much But will it be a smooth

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journey to the exit door? Or can we expect

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a bit of turbulence? Are you taking back

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control, Prime Minister? Big days in politics usually

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involve people shouting and the Prime Minister getting

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in a car. It is only a few hundred metres

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from Downing Street to Parliament. But the short journey is the start

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of a much longer one and we do not know exactly

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where we will all end up. This is a historic moment

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from which there can Moments earlier, this Dear John,

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sorry, Dear Don letter, was delivered by Britain's

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ambassador in Brussels to the EU He seemed genuinely upset

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to have been jilted. Back in Westminster,

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hacks from around the world were trying to work out what it

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all meant for the So, here it is, a copy

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of the six-page letter The letter reaffirms the PM's

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proposal to have talks on the exit deal and a future trade deal

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at the same time. It also mentioned the word

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"security" 11 times and stated a failure to reach agreement

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would mean cooperation in the fight against crime

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and terrorism would be weakened. Later, our very own Andrew got

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to ask her what would happen if Britain left the European

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policing agency, Europol. We would not be able to access

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information in the same way as we would as a member,

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so it is important, I think, we are able to negotiate

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a continuing relationship that enables us to work together

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in the way that we have. That night, the

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Brexiteers were happy. We did not have a Mad

:08:20.:08:21.

Hatter, but now we do. Down the street, even the Remainers,

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having a Mad Hatters' tea party, I am not sure that is

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actually Boris, though. The next morning, the papers

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suggested Theresa May would use security as a bargaining tool

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and threaten to withdraw the UK's cooperation in this area

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if no deal was struck. Downing Street denied it,

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as did the Brexit Secretary. We can both cope, but we

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will both be worse off. That seems to be a statement

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of fact, it is not a threat, David Davis had other

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business that morning, introducing the Great Repeal Bill,

:09:03.:09:05.

outling his plans to transfer all EU law into British

:09:06.:09:07.

law to change later, It is not without its critics

:09:08.:09:09.

but the Brexit Secretary said, among other benefits,

:09:10.:09:15.

it would make trade talks easier As we exit the EU and seek

:09:16.:09:17.

a new deep and special partnership with the European Union,

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we are doing so from a position where we have the same

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standards and rules. It will also ensure we deliver

:09:27.:09:28.

on our promise to end the supremacy of European Union law

:09:29.:09:34.

in the UK as we exit. There was, though, a small

:09:35.:09:36.

issue with the name. The Government hit an early hurdle

:09:37.:09:43.

with the Great Repeal Bill. Parliamentary draughtsmen said

:09:44.:09:46.

they were not allowed Great(!)

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so it is just the Repeal Bill. So far, it had been

:09:50.:09:57.

a tale of two cities. By Friday, there was another,

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Valletta in Malta, where EU leaders were having a meeting

:10:00.:10:03.

and President Tusk, yes, him again, set out draft guidelines

:10:04.:10:05.

for the EU Brexit strategy. Once, and only once,

:10:06.:10:12.

we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal can we discuss

:10:13.:10:15.

the framework for our Starting parallel talks

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on all issues at the same time, as suggested by some in the UK,

:10:18.:10:21.

will not happen. The EU 27 does not and will not

:10:22.:10:29.

pursue a punitive approach. Brexit in itself is

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already punitive enough. The pressure on Theresa May to get

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the Brexit process going has now gone and the stage is being set

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elsewhere for the showdown But face-to-face discussions

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are not likely to happen Before May or early June. No one is

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celebrating just yet. We're joined now from Kent

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by the former Conservative The EU says it will not talk about a

:11:04.:11:11.

future relationship with the UK until there has been sufficient

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progress on agreeing the divorce bill. Should the UK agree to this

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phased approach? Well, I think you can make too much about the sequence

:11:23.:11:28.

and timing of the negotiations. I assume that it will be a case of

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nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and so any agreements that

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might be reached on things talked about early on will be very

:11:37.:11:42.

provisional, so I think you can make a big deal about the timing and the

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sequence when I do not think it really matters as much as all that.

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Don't people have a right in this country to be surprised of the talk

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of a massive multi-billion pound divorce settlement? I do not

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remember either side making much of this in the referendum, do you? No.

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A select committee of the House of Lords recently reported and said

:12:08.:12:10.

that there was no legal basis for any exit fee. We will have to see

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how the negotiations go. I think some of the figures cited so far are

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wildly out of kilter and wildly unrealistic. We will have to see

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what happens in the negotiations. As one of your panel commented earlier,

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there will be lots of hares to pursue over the next couple of years

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and we should not get too excited about any of them. Would you accept

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that we make... It may not be anything like the figures Brussels

:12:44.:12:47.

is kicking around of 50, 60 billion euros, do you think we will have to

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make a one-off settlement? If we get everything else we want, if we get a

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really good trade deal and access for the City of London and so on,

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speaking for myself, I would be prepared to make a modest payment.

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But it all depends on the deal we get. What would modest be? Oh, I

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cannot give you a figure. We are right at the start of the

:13:21.:13:23.

negotiations. I do not think that would be agreed until near the end.

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The EU says that if there is a transition period of several years

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after the negotiations, and there is more talk of that, the UK must

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remain subject to the free movement of peoples and the jurisdiction of

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the European Court of Justice, would that be acceptable to you? It

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depends on the nature of the transitional agreement. We are

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getting well ahead of ourselves here. You cannot, I think, for any

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judgment as to whether there should be a transitional stage until you

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know what the final deal is. If there is to be a final deal. And

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then you know how long it might take to implement that deal. That is

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something I think that it is really rather futile to talk about at this

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stage. It may become relevant, depending on the nature of the deal,

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and that is the proper time to talk about it and decide what the answer

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to the questions you pose might be. Except the EU has laid this out in

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its negotiation mandate and it is reasonable to ask people like

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yourself, should we accept that? It is reasonable for me to say, they

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will raise all sorts of things in their negotiating mandate and we do

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not need to form a view of all of them at this stage. Let me try

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another one. The EU says if they do agree what you have called a

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comprehensive free trade deal, we would have to accept EU constraints

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on state aid and taxes like VAT and corporation tax. Would you accept

:14:59.:15:05.

that? Again, I am not sure quite what they have in mind on that. We

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will be an independent country when we leave and we will make our own

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decisions about those matters. Not according to know that -- to the

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negotiating mandate. As I have said, they can put all sorts of things in

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the negotiating guidelines, it does not mean we have to agree with them.

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No doubt that is something we can discuss in the context of a free

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trade agreement. If we get a free trade agreement, that is very

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important for them as well as for us, and we can talk about some of

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the things you have just mentioned. Can you please leave a 20 without

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having repatriated full control of migration, taxis and the law? I

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think we will have repatriated all three of those things by the time of

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the next general election. How high would you rate the chances of no

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deal, and does that prospect worry you? I think the chances are we will

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get the deal, and I think the chances are we will get a good deal,

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because that is in the interests of both sides of this negotiation. But

:16:22.:16:28.

it is not the end of the world if we do not get a deal. Most trade in the

:16:29.:16:33.

world is carried out under World Trade Organisation rules. We would

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be perfectly OK if we traded with the European Union, as with

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everybody else, under World Trade Organisation rules. It is better to

:16:43.:16:46.

get the deal, and I think we will get the deal, because it is in the

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interests of both. Let me ask you about Gibraltar. You have campaigned

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in Gibraltar when the sovereignty issue came up under the Tony Blair

:16:55.:16:59.

government. The EU says that Spain should have a veto on whether any

:17:00.:17:05.

free-trade deal should apply to the Rock. How should the British

:17:06.:17:10.

government replied to that? As it has responded, by making it

:17:11.:17:15.

absolutely clear that we will stand by Gibraltar. 35 years ago this

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week, Andrew, another woman Prime Minister Centre task force is

:17:23.:17:25.

halfway across the world to protect another small group of British

:17:26.:17:28.

people against another Spanish-speaking country. I am

:17:29.:17:34.

absolutely clear that our current woman Prime Minister will show the

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same resolve in relation to Gibraltar as her predecessor did.

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This is not about Spain invading Gibraltar, it is not even about

:17:50.:17:51.

sovereignty, it is about Spain having a veto over whether any

:17:52.:17:53.

free-trade deal that the UK makes with the EU should also apply to

:17:54.:17:57.

Gibraltar. On that issue, how should the British government respond? The

:17:58.:18:03.

British government should show resolve. It is not in the interests

:18:04.:18:08.

of Spain, really, to interfere with free trade to Gibraltar. 10,000

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people who live in Spain working Gibraltar. That is a very important

:18:13.:18:17.

Spanish interest, so I am very confident that in the end, we will

:18:18.:18:22.

be able to look after all the interests of Gibraltar, including

:18:23.:18:27.

free trade. Michael Howard, thank you for joining us from Kent this

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morning. Although sometimes it seems

:18:29.:18:31.

like everyone has forgotten, there are things happening

:18:32.:18:33.

other than Brexit. In less than five weeks' time,

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there will be a round of important domestic elections and there's a lot

:18:36.:18:38.

up for grabs. Local elections take place

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on the 4th of May in England, In England, there are elections

:18:42.:18:44.

in 34 councils, with 2,370 The majority are county councils,

:18:45.:18:48.

usually areas of strength Large cities where Labour usually

:18:49.:18:55.

fares better are not Six regions of England will also

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hold elections for newly created combined authority mayors,

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and there will be contests for directly elected mayors,

:19:07.:19:08.

with voters in Manchester, Liverpool and the West Midlands

:19:09.:19:15.

among those going to the polls. In Scotland, every seat in all 32

:19:16.:19:18.

councils are being contested, many of them affected

:19:19.:19:20.

by boundary changes. Since these seats were last

:19:21.:19:23.

contested, Labour lost all but one Meanwhile, every seat in each

:19:24.:19:26.

of Wales' 22 councils All but one was last elected

:19:27.:19:31.

in 2012 in what was a very strong year for Labour,

:19:32.:19:37.

though independent candidates currently hold

:19:38.:19:39.

a quarter of council seats. According to the latest

:19:40.:19:41.

calculations by Plymouth University Election Centre,

:19:42.:19:43.

the Tories are predicted to increase their tally by 50 seats,

:19:44.:19:49.

despite being in government, But the dramatic story in England

:19:50.:19:51.

looks to be with the other parties, with the Lib-Dems possibly winning

:19:52.:19:58.

100 seats, while Ukip could be seeing a fall,

:19:59.:20:00.

predicted to lose 100 seats. Though the proportional system

:20:01.:20:05.

usually makes big changes less likely in Scotland,

:20:06.:20:07.

the SNP is predicted to increase both the number of seats

:20:08.:20:11.

they hold, and the number In Wales, Labour is defending a high

:20:12.:20:13.

water mark in support. Last year's Welsh Assembly elections

:20:14.:20:22.

suggest the only way is down, with all the parties making modest

:20:23.:20:25.

gains at Labour's expense. Joining me now is the BBC's

:20:26.:20:27.

very own elections guru, Professor John Curtice

:20:28.:20:29.

of the University of Strathclyde. Good to see you again. Let's start

:20:30.:20:37.

with England. How bad are the selection is going to be for Labour?

:20:38.:20:41.

Labourer not defending a great deal because this is for the most part

:20:42.:20:46.

rural England. The only control three of the council they are

:20:47.:20:50.

defending and they are only defending around 500 seats, I nearly

:20:51.:20:55.

a quarter are in one county, Durham. Labour's position in the opinion

:20:56.:20:59.

polls is weakened over the last 12 months and if you compare the

:21:00.:21:02.

position in the opinion polls now with where they were in the spring

:21:03.:21:14.

of 2013 when these seats in England were last fought, we are talking

:21:15.:21:17.

about a 12 point swing from Labour to conservative. The estimate of 50

:21:18.:21:19.

losses may be somewhat optimistic for Labour. Of the three council

:21:20.:21:22.

areas they control, two of them, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire,

:21:23.:21:26.

could be lost, leaving labourer with virtually a duck as far as council

:21:27.:21:30.

control is concerned in these elections in England. In England,

:21:31.:21:34.

what would a Liberal Democrat reserve urgently great? That is the

:21:35.:21:39.

big question. We have had this picture since the EU referendum of

:21:40.:21:43.

the Liberal Democrats doing extraordinarily well in some local

:21:44.:21:46.

by-elections, gaining seats that they had not even fought before, and

:21:47.:21:54.

in other areas, doing no more than treading water. We are expecting a

:21:55.:21:56.

Liberal Democrat skin because the lost the lot -- the lost lots of

:21:57.:22:00.

ground when they were in coalition with the Conservatives. It is

:22:01.:22:04.

uncertain. A patchy performance may well be to their advantage. If they

:22:05.:22:08.

do well in some places and gain seats, and elsewhere do not do

:22:09.:22:11.

terribly well and do not waste votes, they may end up doing

:22:12.:22:16.

relatively well in seats, even if the overall gaining votes is likely

:22:17.:22:20.

to be modest. The elections for mayors, they are taking place in

:22:21.:22:51.

the Labour will that be a hefty consolation prize for the Labour

:22:52.:22:55.

Party? It ought to be, on Teesside, Merseyside, Greater Manchester. We

:22:56.:22:57.

are looking at one content very closely, that is the contest for the

:22:58.:23:00.

mayor of the West Midlands. If you look at what happened in the general

:23:01.:23:02.

election in 2015, labourer work nine points ahead of the Conservatives in

:23:03.:23:05.

the West Midlands. If you look at the swing since the general

:23:06.:23:07.

election, if you add that swing to where we were two years ago, the

:23:08.:23:10.

West Midlands now looks like a draw. Labour have to worry about a

:23:11.:23:12.

headline grabbing loss, and the West Midlands contest. If they were to

:23:13.:23:15.

lose, that wooden crate -- that would increase the pressure for

:23:16.:23:17.

their own Jeremy Corbyn to convince people that they can turn his

:23:18.:23:21.

party's fortunes around, and in truth at the moment, they are pretty

:23:22.:23:26.

dire. The West Midlands has Birmingham as its heart.

:23:27.:23:30.

Chock-a-block with marginal seats. It always has been. I always

:23:31.:23:35.

remember election night and marginal seats in the West Midlands.

:23:36.:23:43.

Scotland, the SNP is assaulting Labour's last remaining power base.

:23:44.:23:47.

The biggest prizes Glasgow. Will it take it, the SNP? Whether the SNP

:23:48.:23:53.

will gain control of Glasgow is uncertain. If you look at what is

:23:54.:23:57.

happening in local government by-elections let alone the opinion

:23:58.:24:02.

polls, in 2012, when these seats were last fought, Labour did

:24:03.:24:06.

relatively well, only one percentage point behind the SNP who were rather

:24:07.:24:10.

disappointed with the result compared to other elections. No sign

:24:11.:24:15.

of that happening this time alone -- this time around. Polls put the SNP

:24:16.:24:23.

ahead. By-elections have found the SNP advancing and Labour dropping by

:24:24.:24:26.

double digits. Labour are going to lose everything they currently

:24:27.:24:29.

control in Scotland, the SNP will become the dominant party, the

:24:30.:24:33.

question is how well they do. In Scotland there is a Conservative

:24:34.:24:37.

revival going on. The Conservatives did well in recent local government

:24:38.:24:42.

by-elections. At the moment, Labour are expected to come third north of

:24:43.:24:46.

the border in the local elections, repeating the third they suffered in

:24:47.:24:53.

the Holyrood elections last year. In Wales, Labour is expecting to lose

:24:54.:24:56.

control of a number of councils. They are the main party in 12 of 22

:24:57.:25:02.

local authorities. How bad could it be? We're expecting Labour to lose

:25:03.:25:06.

ground. In the opinion polls when these seats were last fought,

:25:07.:25:11.

labourer in the high 40s. Now they are not much above 30%. Cardiff

:25:12.:25:16.

could well join Glasgow was no longer being a Labour stronghold.

:25:17.:25:21.

Look out for Newport. Some of the South Wales councils that Labour

:25:22.:25:24.

control, Labour is probably too but occasionally, Plaid

:25:25.:25:40.

Cymru surprises in this area. They managed to win the Rhondda seat in

:25:41.:25:42.

the assembly elections. Jeremy Corbyn has said he wants to be

:25:43.:25:44.

judged on proper elections, council elections as opposed to opinion

:25:45.:25:47.

polls, but even if he does as badly as John has been suggesting, does it

:25:48.:25:50.

affect his leadership? I think it does on two counts. It will affect

:25:51.:25:56.

his own confidence. Anyone who is a human being will be affected by

:25:57.:26:00.

this. He might go into his office and be told by John McDonnell and

:26:01.:26:05.

others, stand firm, it is all right, but it will affect his confidence

:26:06.:26:11.

and inevitably it contributes to a sense that this is moving to some

:26:12.:26:16.

kind of denoument, at some point. In other words, while I understand the

:26:17.:26:20.

argument that he has won twice in a leadership contest, well, within 12

:26:21.:26:26.

months, I wonder whether this can carry on in a fixed term parliament,

:26:27.:26:34.

up until 2020, if it were to do so. On two France, it will have some

:26:35.:26:38.

impact. I am not seeing it will lead to his immediate departure, it will

:26:39.:26:44.

mark, but if these things are as devastating as John suggests, it

:26:45.:26:49.

will have an impact. Tom, I'll be looking at a Lib Dem fightback? That

:26:50.:26:55.

is the $64,000 question. It would seem that we should be. One massive

:26:56.:26:59.

reason we're not having a general election a time soon, apart from the

:27:00.:27:04.

fact that Theresa May does not believe in these things, she

:27:05.:27:06.

believes in pressing on, it is because Tory MPs in the South West

:27:07.:27:12.

who took the Lib Dem seats, they were telling Number 10 they were

:27:13.:27:14.

worried they were going to lose their seats back to the Lib Dems.

:27:15.:27:19.

The Lib Dems never went away and local government. They have got

:27:20.:27:23.

other campaigners and activists. It looks credible that they will be the

:27:24.:27:28.

success story of the whole thing. Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall, he says

:27:29.:27:32.

this will be the most difficult local elections his party will face

:27:33.:27:39.

before 2020. A bit of management of expectations. It is unlikely to be a

:27:40.:27:44.

good time for Ukip. They are right to manage expectations. The results

:27:45.:27:49.

will be horrible for Ukip. I agree with Tom about the Lib Dem

:27:50.:28:09.

threat to the Tories. Talking to some senior figures within the Tory

:28:10.:28:13.

party earlier this week, I was picking up that they are worried

:28:14.:28:15.

about 30-40 general election seeds being vulnerable to the Lib Dems

:28:16.:28:17.

because of the Labour collapse. I would normally agree with Steve

:28:18.:28:19.

about the resilience of politicians, the capability of withstanding

:28:20.:28:22.

repeated blows, but Jeremy Corbyn is not in the normal category. I think

:28:23.:28:25.

he is, in the sense that although he get solace from winning leadership

:28:26.:28:27.

contest, anyone who leads a party into the kind of, it is not going to

:28:28.:28:32.

be that vivid, because they are not defending the key seats. If they

:28:33.:28:37.

were to win Birmingham, say, and get slaughtered by the SNP in Scotland,

:28:38.:28:43.

it will undermine what is already a fairly ambiguous sense of

:28:44.:28:46.

self-confidence. We need to leave it there. Thank you, John Curtice.

:28:47.:28:49.

Well, with those elections on the horizon, is Labour where it

:28:50.:28:51.

Former leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew

:28:52.:28:54.

Marr Show earlier and he explained the challenge Labour faces

:28:55.:28:56.

It is easier for other parties, if you are the Greens or the

:28:57.:29:01.

Liberal Democrats you're essentially fishing in the 48% pool.

:29:02.:29:04.

If you are Ukip, you are fishing in the 52% pool.

:29:05.:29:08.

Labour is trying to do something much harder,

:29:09.:29:10.

which is to try and speak for the whole country,

:29:11.:29:12.

and by the way, that is another part of

:29:13.:29:14.

Our attack on Theresa May, part of it is she's

:29:15.:29:18.

Ignoring the verdict going into this, saying,

:29:19.:29:25.

let's overturn it, looks like ignoring the 52%.

:29:26.:29:27.

By the way, there is more that unites Remainers

:29:28.:29:32.

and Leavers than might first appear, because they share common

:29:33.:29:35.

concerns about the way the country is run.

:29:36.:29:40.

Joining me now is the Shadow Health Secretary, Jon Ashworth.

:29:41.:29:45.

Welcome to the programme. Alastair Campbell told me on the BBC on

:29:46.:29:49.

Thursday that he is fighting to reverse the referendum result. Ed

:29:50.:29:55.

Miliband says that Remain needs to accept the result, come to terms

:29:56.:30:01.

with it. Who is right? We have to accept the referendum result. I

:30:02.:30:05.

campaigned passionately to remain in the European Union. The city I

:30:06.:30:10.

represent, Leicester, voted narrowly to remain in the European Union.

:30:11.:30:14.

Sadly the country did not. We cannot overturn that and be like kinky

:30:15.:30:18.

nude, trying to demand the tide go back out. We have to accept this

:30:19.:30:24.

democratic process. We all voted to have a referendum when the relevant

:30:25.:30:32.

legislation came to Parliament. How bad will the local elections before

:30:33.:30:40.

Labour? Let us see where we get to on election night when I am sure I

:30:41.:30:46.

will be invited on to one of these types of programmes... The election

:30:47.:30:55.

date, the following day. But it does look like you will lose seats across

:30:56.:30:58.

the board in England, Scotland and Wales. What did you make of what

:30:59.:31:03.

Steve Richards said about the impact on Jeremy Corbyn's leadership? We

:31:04.:31:08.

have to win seats, we cannot fall back on the scales suggested. No,

:31:09.:31:15.

your package was right, it tends to be Tory areas, but generally, we

:31:16.:31:22.

have to be winning in Nottinghamshire, Lancashire, those

:31:23.:31:25.

types of places because they contain a lot of the marginal constituencies

:31:26.:31:29.

that decide general elections. The important places in the elections

:31:30.:31:35.

are towns like Beeston, towns you have not heard of, but they are

:31:36.:31:42.

marginal towns in marginal swing constituencies. We have to do well

:31:43.:31:47.

in them. We will see where we are on election night but my pretty is to

:31:48.:31:50.

campaign hard in these areas over the next few weeks. Even people who

:31:51.:31:58.

voted Labour in 2015, they prefer Theresa May to Mr Corbyn as Prime

:31:59.:32:04.

Minister, a recent poll said. Isn't that extraordinary? I have not seen

:32:05.:32:08.

that. I will look it up. It was you Government. -- YouGov. It is

:32:09.:32:16.

important we win the trust of people. You are not winning the

:32:17.:32:21.

trust of people who voted for you in 2015. We have to hold onto people

:32:22.:32:28.

who voted for us in 2015 and we have to persuade people who voted for

:32:29.:32:31.

other parties to come to us. One of the criticisms I have of the debate

:32:32.:32:36.

that goes on in the wider Labour Party, do not misunderstand me, I am

:32:37.:32:41.

not making a criticism about an individual, but the debate you see

:32:42.:32:45.

online suggests that if you want to get people who voted Conservative to

:32:46.:32:50.

switch to Labour it is somehow a betrayal of our principles, it was

:32:51.:32:54.

not. Justin Trudeau said Conservative voters are our

:32:55.:33:01.

neighbours, our relatives. We have to persuade people to switch from

:33:02.:33:06.

voting Conservative to voting Labour as well as increasing our vote among

:33:07.:33:13.

nonvoters and Greens. It seems like you have a mountain to climb and the

:33:14.:33:18.

mountain is Everest. Another poll, I am not sure if you have seen this,

:33:19.:33:24.

in London, the Bastian of Labour, the Bastian of Remain, Mr Corbyn is

:33:25.:33:34.

less popular than even Ukip's Paul Nuttall. That is beyond

:33:35.:33:39.

extraordinary! I do not know about that. The most recent set of

:33:40.:33:43.

elections in London was the mayoral election where the Labour candidate

:33:44.:33:49.

city: won handsomely. He took the seat of a conservative. We took that

:33:50.:33:55.

of a conservative. It was a year ago. We did well then. You had an

:33:56.:34:08.

anti-Jeremy Corbyn candidate. I think he nominated Jeremy Corbyn,

:34:09.:34:11.

from memory. We have not got elections in London but our

:34:12.:34:15.

elections are in the county areas and the various mayoral elections...

:34:16.:34:25.

What about the West Midlands? In any normal year, mid-term, as the

:34:26.:34:30.

opposition, Labour should win the West Midlands. John Curtis says it

:34:31.:34:36.

is nip and tuck. It has always been a swing region but we want to do

:34:37.:34:40.

well, of course. We want to turn out a strong Labour vote in Dudley,

:34:41.:34:47.

Northampton, those sorts of places. They are key constituencies in the

:34:48.:34:52.

general election. Does Labour look like a government in waiting to you?

:34:53.:34:58.

What I would say is contrast where we are to what the conservative

:34:59.:35:03.

garment is doing. I asked you about Labour, you do not get to tell me

:35:04.:35:07.

about the Conservatives. Does it look like a government in waiting to

:35:08.:35:12.

you? Today we are exposing the Conservatives... Reminding people

:35:13.:35:16.

the Conservatives are breaking the pledge on waiting times of 18 weeks

:35:17.:35:21.

so lots of elderly people waiting longer in pain for hip replacements

:35:22.:35:27.

and cataract replacements. Yesterday the Housing spokesperson John Healey

:35:28.:35:29.

was exposing the shortcomings in the Help to Buy scheme. The education

:35:30.:35:35.

spokesperson has been campaigning hard against the cuts to schools.

:35:36.:35:39.

Tom Watson has been campaigning hard against some of the changes the

:35:40.:35:44.

Government want to introduce in culture. The Shadow Cabinet are

:35:45.:35:47.

working hard to hold the Government's feet to the fire. Does

:35:48.:35:52.

it look like a government in waiting? Yes. It took you three

:35:53.:35:59.

times! There is a social care crisis, schools funding issue, a

:36:00.:36:03.

huge issue for lots of areas, the NHS has just got through the winter

:36:04.:36:07.

and is abandoning many of its targets. You are 18 points behind in

:36:08.:36:16.

the polls. We have to work harder. What can you do? The opinion polls

:36:17.:36:22.

are challenging but we are a great Social Democratic Party of

:36:23.:36:27.

government. On Twitter today, lots of Labour activists celebrating that

:36:28.:36:29.

the national minimum wage has been in place for something like 16 years

:36:30.:36:34.

because we were in government. Look of the sweeping progressive changes

:36:35.:36:39.

this country has benefited from, the NHS, sure start centres, an assault

:36:40.:36:44.

on child poverty, the Labour Party got itself in contention for

:36:45.:36:49.

government. I entirely accept the polls do not make thrilling reading

:36:50.:36:53.

for Labour politicians on Sunday morning, but it means people like me

:36:54.:36:57.

have to work harder because we are part of something bigger than an

:36:58.:37:00.

individual, we are in the business of changing things for the British

:37:01.:37:04.

people and if we do not do that, if we do not focus on that, we are

:37:05.:37:07.

letting people down. Is Labour preparing for an early election

:37:08.:37:16.

question Billy burqa? Reports in the press of a war chest as macro for an

:37:17.:37:21.

early election? The general election coordinator called for a general

:37:22.:37:25.

election when Theresa May became Prime Minister. We are investing in

:37:26.:37:28.

staff and the organisational capability we need. By the way, the

:37:29.:37:34.

Labour Party staff do brilliant work. A bit of nonsense on Twitter

:37:35.:37:39.

having a go at them. They do tremendous work. Whenever the

:37:40.:37:42.

election comes, they will be ready. Jon Ashworth, thank you.

:37:43.:37:50.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the southwest.

:37:51.:38:05.

Will it get employers to train up British workers instead?

:38:06.:38:12.

Effectively they are making the UK software industry less competitive,

:38:13.:38:14.

less productive and therefore giving an advantage to

:38:15.:38:16.

For the next 20 minutes I'm joined by Tudor Evans,

:38:17.:38:26.

the Labour group leader on Plymouth City Council,

:38:27.:38:29.

and the Conservative MP for St Ives, Derek Thomas.

:38:30.:38:31.

So, after nine months, the two-year journey towards the EU

:38:32.:38:42.

Derek, are we going to see anything concrete happen from now

:38:43.:38:50.

I think we will see some clear ideas about the negotiation,

:38:51.:38:55.

The Prime Minister has been very clear, and it is important

:38:56.:39:05.

for all of us that the rights of EU nationals is on the agenda,

:39:06.:39:08.

There is lots of consultation going on.

:39:09.:39:12.

The industrial strategy, food and farming, things

:39:13.:39:13.

Will we see anything specific because we have

:39:14.:39:16.

this Great Repeal Bill, which is almost a funny name

:39:17.:39:19.

because it should be called an integration bill.

:39:20.:39:32.

Won't the time be taken up with integrating all these

:39:33.:39:34.

policies into UK law, rather than making any changes?

:39:35.:39:36.

I think what we will see is clear direction of travel

:39:37.:39:39.

about the destiny the UK wants to go, and the journey

:39:40.:39:42.

You're right, the deal will be in two years,

:39:43.:39:52.

and it is only then we will get to see.

:39:53.:39:54.

I guess what you're talking about is concrete.

:39:55.:39:56.

Tudor, how is Labour going to hold the government to account?

:39:57.:40:11.

And it is getting tighter because our clock has started.

:40:12.:40:17.

But the EU said, hang on a minute, we're not ready yet,

:40:18.:40:19.

we have German elections to sort out, and we cannot really decide

:40:20.:40:22.

what is going to happen until we know what's happening

:40:23.:40:25.

in Germany because they are such a big player.

:40:26.:40:27.

The German elections are not until autumn.

:40:28.:40:28.

He hasn't specifically said that, that is just no set timetable.

:40:29.:40:31.

The clock is ticking, the two-year button has been pressed

:40:32.:40:34.

So the one bit of element of surprise we had available to us,

:40:35.:40:39.

Should Theresa May have waited before triggering Article 50?

:40:40.:40:44.

During negotiations there are two things that are going to happen.

:40:45.:40:47.

First of all you've got to decide what it is you want to achieve.

:40:48.:40:51.

They have decided that yet, other than getting out

:40:52.:40:53.

of the European Union, and secondly you have to have

:40:54.:40:55.

So here we are in a situation where our precious time

:40:56.:40:59.

is being wasted waiting for somebody to come to the table.

:41:00.:41:02.

We could come back to all of this but we have to move on

:41:03.:41:06.

because we are looking outside the EU because companies who employ

:41:07.:41:09.

skilled workers from outside the EU are about to start paying

:41:10.:41:11.

The government is imposing a levy of ?1,000 a year

:41:12.:41:15.

The idea is to encourage employers to train Brits instead,

:41:16.:41:18.

but is it another hurdle for firms in the south-west, many

:41:19.:41:21.

about recruitment problems anyway with Brexit on the horizon?

:41:22.:41:25.

A changing landscape with high-tech jobs taking the place

:41:26.:41:31.

of Cornwall's old industries, but how will government plans

:41:32.:41:33.

to control immigration suit companies with global ambitions?

:41:34.:41:35.

A software development company based in this EU funded building says that

:41:36.:41:39.

since the referendum, the number of EU nationals

:41:40.:41:40.

Rapidly expanding, the firm grew from 55 to 90

:41:41.:41:47.

With hopes to double again this year.

:41:48.:41:53.

Around a quarter of the workforce comes from outside the UK,

:41:54.:41:56.

spanning 18 nationalities, from Asia, Africa, South America,

:41:57.:41:57.

Simply because of the need to meet demand quickly.

:41:58.:42:06.

A new ?1,000 a year levy on skilled workers from outside the EU will hit

:42:07.:42:10.

Effectively they are making the UK software industry less competitive,

:42:11.:42:15.

less productive and therefore giving an advantage to

:42:16.:42:17.

That means that work that would have been done in the UK with all the tax

:42:18.:42:27.

being paid in the UK will have to go abroad.

:42:28.:42:29.

Which really is a bit silly because we're shooting

:42:30.:42:31.

A ministerial hint that post Brexit this levy also apply for each

:42:32.:42:45.

skilled recruit from within the EU is quickly dismissed.

:42:46.:42:47.

The Home Office said a whole range of options could be considered

:42:48.:42:50.

to control immigration once we leave the EU.

:42:51.:42:57.

But new Romanian arrival Daniel says it is uncertainty like this that

:42:58.:43:00.

will make others like him already think twice.

:43:01.:43:01.

They will be less likely to come here, they will feel...

:43:02.:43:04.

I guess everyone will feel the same, uncertainty.

:43:05.:43:08.

People working in my professions, people working in other

:43:09.:43:11.

The government doesn't want to tell us what the plan is,

:43:12.:43:17.

if they have a plan, and ultimately we cannot rely

:43:18.:43:24.

on a government that doesn't appear to know what it's doing to know

:43:25.:43:28.

exactly where we're going to be in a year or two.

:43:29.:43:31.

Ultimately, if we do reach the limit, that is where will have

:43:32.:43:33.

to look at a contingency plan of setting up an office

:43:34.:43:36.

It is not just the high-tech industry.

:43:37.:43:40.

Health and social care, farming, hotels and restaurants,

:43:41.:43:42.

All are sectors traditionally reliant on thousands

:43:43.:43:55.

of non-UK workers from both within the EU and beyond.

:43:56.:43:58.

And tourism leaders are warning there must be a route into the UK

:43:59.:44:01.

I'm sure people who voted to control immigration as part of the Brexit

:44:02.:44:06.

referendum didn't want people that were British to be held up

:44:07.:44:08.

in their careers are held down in jobs when they could advance

:44:09.:44:11.

because of not thinking this through.

:44:12.:44:12.

It is all very solvable but it has to be addressed,

:44:13.:44:15.

and there has to be a dialogue with the industry but also

:44:16.:44:18.

with the British people to explain that we do need labour supply

:44:19.:44:21.

to have a healthy economy so we can all progress.

:44:22.:44:23.

Ministers say the new skills levy is designed to incentivise firms

:44:24.:44:26.

Meanwhile the government's post Brexit policy on immigration

:44:27.:44:35.

was no clearer this week, with the Prime Minister saying

:44:36.:44:37.

she cannot guarantee it will be significantly lower.

:44:38.:44:40.

Derek, is this really the right policy to introduce

:44:41.:44:51.

a levy on those very companies perhaps in the south-west

:44:52.:44:53.

Firstly, we are talking about skilled jobs,

:44:54.:44:57.

and there is an incentive because what we're trying to do,

:44:58.:45:00.

and the government, several governments have tried to wrestle

:45:01.:45:03.

with this, is the lack of productivity in British

:45:04.:45:04.

workforce, but also the fact that we just had this huge skills

:45:05.:45:07.

Surely you should phase this in, then, if those companies

:45:08.:45:17.

need skilled workers now and they are being charged ?1000

:45:18.:45:19.

to bring in a person who is already skilled,

:45:20.:45:22.

We heard the software manager saying all that will happen is they will be

:45:23.:45:28.

relocating abroad and take the jobs and taxation with them.

:45:29.:45:30.

He was talking about what happened with Brexit.

:45:31.:45:32.

No, he was talking about what would happen if he was charged ?1000

:45:33.:45:35.

This isn't a new idea, this is something we announced over

:45:36.:45:41.

Most people would agree that we are saying to British

:45:42.:45:45.

employers, and we're talking about large employers,

:45:46.:45:46.

the small employers and charities pay a much smaller charge,

:45:47.:45:49.

and there are many that would be exempt from this.

:45:50.:45:51.

But actually we are trying to get employers to take much more

:45:52.:45:56.

interest in continuing training people that work for them

:45:57.:46:01.

so they continue to train through their careers.

:46:02.:46:02.

But what I would say is the obvious point,

:46:03.:46:10.

Because what would help, if there is a problem and we haven't

:46:11.:46:25.

had it described to us what problem this is solving,...

:46:26.:46:28.

Immigration, I suppose, to try to bring the figures

:46:29.:46:30.

What they are saying is that it a displacement of British

:46:31.:46:39.

intellectual property from people outside coming in to do those jobs.

:46:40.:46:42.

And the kinds of companies we talking about here,

:46:43.:46:52.

high-net value companies, they can be anywhere, they can set

:46:53.:46:54.

So this is a disincentive to come to the UK?

:46:55.:46:58.

Yes, the opposite of what is intended.

:46:59.:47:00.

It will stop people coming and setting up companies here,

:47:01.:47:03.

and may move successful companies abroad.

:47:04.:47:07.

Where a business can demonstrate there are no skills

:47:08.:47:20.

in a country that suit the demand, there are

:47:21.:47:23.

What we're trying to say is employers should look

:47:24.:47:27.

in the British workforce, people in the UK today,

:47:28.:47:29.

and may well be from around the rest of the world, is their skills

:47:30.:47:33.

today they use today, rather than take a short cut?

:47:34.:47:38.

Aside from skills, this is about immigration.

:47:39.:47:41.

A lot of people voted for Brexit on the basis they wanted less people

:47:42.:47:44.

Surely you can give a figure for the maximum number of people

:47:45.:47:51.

No, because this is about what skills are needed

:47:52.:47:55.

David Cameron spoke about the tens of thousands.

:47:56.:48:02.

He never managed to achieve under 100,000.

:48:03.:48:04.

I suppose this idea is to try to reduce the number

:48:05.:48:07.

You're right, I do not think we are talking about a figure,

:48:08.:48:18.

we are talking about the needs of the British industry

:48:19.:48:20.

But what we're talking about here is already there are very

:48:21.:48:24.

strict rules about people coming from outside the European

:48:25.:48:26.

There are, so it is not working already, the immigration policy?

:48:27.:48:37.

We're not providing the skills that British people want,

:48:38.:48:39.

not investing in the skills of British workers.

:48:40.:48:41.

Labour has not come up with a figure either, has it?

:48:42.:48:45.

Excuse me, again, I'm not here to defend Labour.

:48:46.:48:48.

Let us talk about the government for a minute because it is the policy.

:48:49.:48:51.

You're the opposition and you need to be...

:48:52.:48:53.

This would be my idea, you asked me the question,

:48:54.:48:57.

this is at a time when grants for nursing bursaries are being cut,

:48:58.:49:01.

where university tuition fees have trebled, where the incentive

:49:02.:49:03.

for young people to upscale and training is being removed

:49:04.:49:05.

all over the place, and so the preventative work

:49:06.:49:07.

the government should be doing is investing in the workforce

:49:08.:49:10.

of tomorrow, not punishing the workforce of today.

:49:11.:49:21.

But this policy tries to do that in a way.

:49:22.:49:24.

It takes three or four years to get a graduate through,

:49:25.:49:27.

it takes a moment to get a company to decide if had enough

:49:28.:49:30.

There has been a huge growth in modern apprenticeship degree

:49:31.:49:37.

level skills in this country, a massive intake on that.

:49:38.:49:47.

So we are training young people, there's huge progress.

:49:48.:49:54.

There is a legion of unemployed young people who cannot get work

:49:55.:49:57.

There is no evidence to support this policy.

:49:58.:49:59.

Another thing I'd like to talk about with the policy is,

:50:00.:50:02.

it seems strange at a time when you're trying to create

:50:03.:50:05.

fairness in bringing in people from outside the country,

:50:06.:50:07.

so from the EU and outside the EU, but you're penalising those

:50:08.:50:10.

And also, you need to go to those countries and try to have a good

:50:11.:50:15.

We're not penalising the employers outside the European Union.

:50:16.:50:18.

We're saying to employers in the UK, when you look for people

:50:19.:50:21.

That includes the European Union, we are still part of

:50:22.:50:25.

At the moment that is where we are, we're looking at how

:50:26.:50:28.

we manage to grow the skills within the country, including

:50:29.:50:31.

Let me give you one example of why this

:50:32.:50:34.

We just had an enterprise zone set up in Plymouth to charge zero rates

:50:35.:50:38.

for businesses to come into the country.

:50:39.:50:40.

For the very companies that this levy will hit hardest.

:50:41.:50:48.

So this is a disincentive that is much bigger

:50:49.:50:51.

than the incentives we are able to provide to attract good

:50:52.:50:53.

We will follow this and see what happens.

:50:54.:50:56.

As the NHS wrestles with record demand from patients,

:50:57.:51:00.

local pharmacies say they are taking the heat off GP surgeries

:51:01.:51:05.

and hospitals by providing advice and treatment on the high street.

:51:06.:51:10.

But a big cut in the funding they get is leading to fears

:51:11.:51:16.

of closures, and claims the government's prescription

:51:17.:51:17.

is limiting their ability to support the NHS.

:51:18.:51:19.

On drugs and medicines, the National Health service brings

:51:20.:51:25.

Today that figure is closer to ?17 billion.

:51:26.:51:30.

Last December the government implemented funding cuts to local

:51:31.:51:32.

Because they get paid in arrears, it's only now those cuts

:51:33.:51:40.

The pharmacy gets paid for dispensing prescriptions,

:51:41.:51:44.

but we obviously do loads of extra things that have a huge amount

:51:45.:51:47.

Free triage, you can see a pharmacist without an appointment,

:51:48.:51:52.

highly trained health care professional with ready access,

:51:53.:51:56.

free delivery services, and those are the things that

:51:57.:52:03.

are going to be at risk, and those are the things we have

:52:04.:52:08.

to maybe cut back on, will we reduced opening

:52:09.:52:10.

It seems at odds with the government's message

:52:11.:52:16.

and NHS England's message of going to the pharmacy first

:52:17.:52:18.

Nick is a third-generation pharmacist, who started working

:52:19.:52:26.

on his grandfathers pharmacy in Newquay, stacking

:52:27.:52:28.

Now he employs 18 people to work with him dispensing 1000

:52:29.:52:32.

He feels the government isn't listening on understanding the value

:52:33.:52:36.

of what the community pharmacies can deliver.

:52:37.:52:38.

Pharmacists feared thousands of dispensaries may have

:52:39.:52:39.

to shut, which reminds him of other community closures.

:52:40.:52:41.

The post office, village pub and the community pharmacy

:52:42.:52:44.

were always the centre of rural life.

:52:45.:52:45.

If you take the example of a small village near lands end,

:52:46.:52:56.

If you take the example of a small village near Land's End,

:52:57.:52:59.

no additional pharmacy for at least seven or eight miles,

:53:00.:53:05.

already they are having to reduce their delivery service.

:53:06.:53:07.

As pharmacist and caring professionals, we want to deliver

:53:08.:53:13.

this, but it's really hard to do it under the cost

:53:14.:53:15.

Lynn is a carer for her dad who is 92, and also her

:53:16.:53:20.

She says she depends on Nick and his team who deliver drugs

:53:21.:53:24.

It doesn't make sense, it is total false economy.

:53:25.:53:28.

I don't know who makes these decisions, I really don't.

:53:29.:53:30.

You know, there are posters up saying, when to go to your GP,

:53:31.:53:33.

when to go to the hospital, and when you can cut those people

:53:34.:53:36.

And they are going to reduce the pharmacies.

:53:37.:53:40.

I cannot imagine them not being there and being part

:53:41.:53:43.

and then the government have got three of us to look after.

:53:44.:54:06.

The Department of Health in a statement said,

:54:07.:54:08.

they believe the changes implemented last December will improve

:54:09.:54:11.

the service offered to the public, for example by further integrating

:54:12.:54:13.

They say they are ensuring they make better use of pharmacists' valuable

:54:14.:54:17.

clinical skills and allocate taxpayers money more efficiently.

:54:18.:54:21.

Let's look at developing the role of the community pharmacist to help

:54:22.:54:24.

aid and support the rest of the health care system.

:54:25.:54:26.

Pharmacy is the first port of call especially at the weekend.

:54:27.:54:30.

People in crisis come to us first because we are here.

:54:31.:54:33.

My worry is if that reduces, then we're not there.

:54:34.:54:37.

Derek, I know you're interested in this because you raised it

:54:38.:54:44.

But it does seem strange, doesn't it, at a time when you're

:54:45.:54:48.

hoping pharmacies can pick up the slack from GP surgeries to start

:54:49.:54:51.

We need to look closely as it evolves.

:54:52.:54:57.

You're right, I was the first MP to raise it, to hold

:54:58.:55:00.

a debate in Parliament, just weeks after the government

:55:01.:55:02.

wrote to pharmacies explaining what they were hoping to achieve.

:55:03.:55:05.

And there is a real opportunity for pharmacies to bring

:55:06.:55:07.

The lady in your clip is right, she has a service from her pharmacy

:55:08.:55:14.

which is unequalled because they are so close to home,

:55:15.:55:16.

and often they will deliver out of hours and often

:55:17.:55:20.

Quite rightly they take the pressure off GPs,

:55:21.:55:33.

and they can do great work to manage long-term conditions.

:55:34.:55:35.

But it is also worth the pharmacies...

:55:36.:55:37.

My particular debate and argument for all of last year was to protect

:55:38.:55:40.

rural community pharmacy because they are the ones...

:55:41.:55:42.

One of which in your constituency that we mentioned there,

:55:43.:55:46.

reducing deliveries in an area where there are very few buses.

:55:47.:55:49.

That is right, they have reduced the hours to provide the service,

:55:50.:55:53.

I think they are delivering the same amount of goods.

:55:54.:55:55.

But David is a really good example of how brilliant

:55:56.:55:57.

And they could do without having the cuts.

:55:58.:56:06.

Tudor, is it a mistake to cut subsidies to pharmacies?

:56:07.:56:08.

It is devastating for the little guys, the independents.

:56:09.:56:17.

If you are Boots, you can sell more hairdryers

:56:18.:56:25.

or aftershave or chocolate, and all the rest of it.

:56:26.:56:27.

Lines that are not carried in small community pharmacies.

:56:28.:56:29.

They rely on this grant to keep them going.

:56:30.:56:32.

The context for the city is just as important because you think

:56:33.:56:34.

that is where the independents are, on the estates.

:56:35.:56:38.

You wouldn't see Boots on a rundown estate, but you would see

:56:39.:56:41.

What about this policy to try and get people out of GP surgeries

:56:42.:56:45.

It is another example of, instead of having

:56:46.:56:48.

a Blackadder of policy-making, we have a Baldrick.

:56:49.:56:50.

Because they are saying one thing, this "cunning plan",

:56:51.:56:52.

to have everyone go from GP to the pharmacy at the same time as

:56:53.:56:55.

cutting and threatening the availability of pharmacies.

:56:56.:56:57.

Should Labour have done a bit more than you were in government

:56:58.:57:00.

Once again you're asking me about labour.

:57:01.:57:03.

I know that, but let's talk about government four minutes

:57:04.:57:18.

-- I know that, but let's talk about government for a minute

:57:19.:57:21.

because I think Labour's record for developing pharmacies.

:57:22.:57:23.

Look at Plymouth, and the number of new pharmacies that sprung up

:57:24.:57:26.

next to new doctor surgeries and walk in centres...

:57:27.:57:28.

That sounds good, that sounds like action.

:57:29.:57:30.

Maybe they've had a bit too much money over the years?

:57:31.:57:41.

Here we are, you're dammed if you do and damned if you don't.

:57:42.:57:45.

It's important we understand what is being changed.

:57:46.:57:46.

At the moment, a pharmacy, including the multiples,

:57:47.:57:48.

just received a fixed fee for existing and it didn't really

:57:49.:57:51.

They can do just over 2000 transactions, and that was it.

:57:52.:57:55.

My argument was for the rural pharmacy.

:57:56.:57:56.

In the high street if you have nine pharmacies close

:57:57.:57:59.

together in a town centre, the government are being each

:58:00.:58:01.

of them the fixed fee just for existing, whether or not

:58:02.:58:04.

I'm old enough to remember when the Conservatives

:58:05.:58:09.

It is time for our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:58:10.:58:15.

More than ?1 billion is to be spent improving

:58:16.:58:17.

But campaigners say passengers west of Exeter won't benefit.

:58:18.:58:20.

NHS managers dealing with proposed cuts say they are facing

:58:21.:58:23.

abuse at public meetings and being threatened online.

:58:24.:58:25.

Staff are being verbally abused when they are going

:58:26.:58:30.

about their business in the street, when they are not on work time.

:58:31.:58:38.

Royal Marine Alexander Blackman will be freed soon, after his murder

:58:39.:58:41.

conviction for killing a wounded Taliban fighter was

:58:42.:58:43.

A criminal offence, yes, but massively mitigated

:58:44.:58:50.

as three eminent world-renowned psychiatrists have stated.

:58:51.:58:55.

And the Prime Minister was asked whether more could be spent

:58:56.:58:57.

Brain tumour research on receives about 1%

:58:58.:59:02.

of all research funding for cancer, and yet it kills...

:59:03.:59:14.

It is the biggest cancer killer of children and adults under 40.

:59:15.:59:17.

That's a very handsome man speaking in parliament!

:59:18.:59:19.

That was you about brain tumour research.

:59:20.:59:23.

Something you feel passionately about.

:59:24.:59:25.

Absolutely, I came to the opening of the brain tumour research Centre

:59:26.:59:27.

And so many people are affected by brain tumours, particularly

:59:28.:59:34.

It is the biggest cancer killer, and yet we spend about 1%

:59:35.:59:39.

On Friday, right across the country, it is Wear A Hat day,

:59:40.:59:50.

celebrating this research, making people aware of what brain

:59:51.:59:52.

tumours are and what we need to do to try to find a cure and much

:59:53.:59:56.

I am really passionate about it and I do everything I can.

:59:57.:00:00.

I have had shops in the High Streets in my towns collecting money

:00:01.:00:03.

and wearing silly hats and raising profile for this research.

:00:04.:00:05.

Tudor, I want to ask you about something else

:00:06.:00:08.

because we saw that ?1 billion to improve the Exeter

:00:09.:00:10.

Is it disappointing for Plymouth when we're waiting for this

:00:11.:00:15.

Yes, they can't seem to take seriously the fact that the 15th

:00:16.:00:34.

largest city in the country has one precarious railway line and we need

:00:35.:00:38.

We are trying our best to get the message across.

:00:39.:00:41.

But the government just doesn't seem to get the urgency of it.

:00:42.:00:44.

We want to do our bit for the UK, we want to transform the economy

:00:45.:00:48.

We cannot do that with the railway line in the state it is.

:00:49.:00:51.

That is the Sunday Politics in the southwest.

:00:52.:01:03.

So, what will be the effect of new tax and benefit changes

:01:04.:01:06.

Will the Government's grand trade tour reap benefits?

:01:07.:01:10.

And are the Lib Dems really going to replace Labour,

:01:11.:01:12.

To answer that last question, I'm joined by from Salford

:01:13.:01:24.

by the Lib Dem MP, Alistair Carmichael.

:01:25.:01:29.

Michael Fallon sirs the Lib Dems will replace Labour. How long will

:01:30.:01:38.

it take? We will have to wait and see. Anyone who thinks you can

:01:39.:01:43.

predict the future is engaged in a dodgy game. I have been campaigning

:01:44.:01:49.

with the Liberal Democrats in Manchester... You must not

:01:50.:01:54.

mention... You know the by-election rules. It is only an illustration.

:01:55.:02:01.

Across false ways of the country, the Liberal Democrats are back in

:02:02.:02:11.

business -- across whole swathes of the country. Part of the reason why

:02:12.:02:15.

we are getting a good response is because the Labour Party under

:02:16.:02:20.

Jeremy Corbyn has taken such a self-destructive path. Even if you

:02:21.:02:25.

do pretty well in the local elections, it you have to make up

:02:26.:02:28.

lost ground from the time you did very well in previous times, you

:02:29.:02:36.

used to have 4700 councillors. It will take you a long while to get

:02:37.:02:40.

back to that. You will get no argument from me that we have a

:02:41.:02:44.

mountain to climb. What I'm telling you is, and if this is not just in

:02:45.:02:49.

this round of elections, it is in the other by-elections in places

:02:50.:02:54.

like Richmond, and in by-elections write the length and breadth of the

:02:55.:02:59.

country since last June, the Liberal Democrats are taking seats from the

:03:00.:03:02.

Labour Party under Conservative Party, and not just in Brexit phobic

:03:03.:03:11.

areas. Not just in Remain areas. But in places like Sunderland as well

:03:12.:03:14.

which voted very heavily for Brexit. In fact, that vote was in large part

:03:15.:03:21.

as well a protest against the way in which the Labour Party really has

:03:22.:03:25.

taken these areas for granted over the years. That is why the ground is

:03:26.:03:30.

fertile for us. In the local elections which is what we are

:03:31.:03:36.

discussing today, why would anybody vote for the Liberal Democrats if

:03:37.:03:40.

they believed in Brexit? Mr Farren has said he wants to reverse works.

:03:41.:03:48.

If you are Brexit supporter and you are considering how to cast your

:03:49.:03:52.

vote, first of all, I think you will be looking at the quality of

:03:53.:03:56.

representation you can get for your local area and you are right, we

:03:57.:04:00.

have a lot of ground to recoup from previous elections, we lost 124

:04:01.:04:09.

seats, communities have now had a few years to reflect on the quality

:04:10.:04:14.

of service they have been able to get and they have missed the very

:04:15.:04:17.

effective liberal Democrat councillors they have had. This is

:04:18.:04:23.

not just about whether you are a believer or remainer, ultimately,

:04:24.:04:28.

that is an issue we are going to have to settle and we will settle it

:04:29.:04:33.

not in the way the Government is having by dictating the terms of the

:04:34.:04:38.

debate, but by bringing the whole country together. I think that is

:04:39.:04:43.

something you can only do if, as we have suggested, you give the people

:04:44.:04:47.

the opportunity to have a say on the deal when Theresa May eventually

:04:48.:04:50.

produces it. The only way you could really replace Labour in the

:04:51.:04:56.

foreseeable future would be if a big chunk of the centre and right of the

:04:57.:05:01.

Labour Party came over and join due in some kind of new social

:05:02.:05:06.

democratic alliance. -- joined you. There is no sign that will happen? I

:05:07.:05:11.

do not see whether common purpose is anymore holding the Labour Party

:05:12.:05:14.

together. That is for people in the Labour Party to make their own

:05:15.:05:20.

decisions. Use what happened to the Labour Party in Scotland. -- you

:05:21.:05:27.

saw. Politics moved on and left them behind and they were decimated as a

:05:28.:05:32.

consequence of that. So was your party. It is possible the same thing

:05:33.:05:36.

could happen to the Labour Party and the rest of the UK. Politics is

:05:37.:05:41.

moving on and they are coming up with 1970s solutions to problems in

:05:42.:05:48.

2017. Alistair Carmichael, thanks for joining us. Let us have a look

:05:49.:05:54.

at some of the tax and benefit changes coming up this week. The tax

:05:55.:06:00.

changes first of all. The personal allowance is going to rise to

:06:01.:06:04.

?11,500, the level at which you start to pay tax. The higher rate

:06:05.:06:09.

threshold, where you start to play at 40%, that will rise from

:06:10.:06:15.

currently ?43,400, rising up to 40 5000. -- pay. Benefit changes,

:06:16.:06:24.

freeze on working age benefits, removal of the family element of tax

:06:25.:06:30.

credits and universal credit, that is a technical change but quite an

:06:31.:06:35.

impact. The child element of tax credit is going to be limited to two

:06:36.:06:41.

children on any new claims. The Resolution Foundation has crunched

:06:42.:06:48.

the numbers and they discovered that when you take the tax and benefit

:06:49.:06:55.

changes together, 80% go to better off households and the poorest third

:06:56.:07:03.

or worse. What help -- what happened to help the just about managing? The

:07:04.:07:08.

Resolution Foundation exists to find the worst possible statistics... It

:07:09.:07:12.

is not clear the figures are wrong? They are fairly recent figures and I

:07:13.:07:18.

have not seen analysis by other organisations. The Adam Smith

:07:19.:07:22.

Institute will probably have some question marks over it. Nobody

:07:23.:07:26.

should be surprised a Tory government is trying to make the

:07:27.:07:30.

state smaller... And the poor poorer. The system is propped up by

:07:31.:07:37.

better off people and so it will be those people who will be slightly

:07:38.:07:40.

less heavily taxed as you make the state smaller. Theresa May will have

:07:41.:07:48.

to stop just talking about the just about managing. And some of her

:07:49.:07:52.

other language and the role of the government and the state when she

:07:53.:07:57.

sounded quite positive... She sounded like a big government

:07:58.:08:01.

conservative not small government. In every set piece occasion, she

:08:02.:08:05.

says, it is time to look at the good the government can do. That is not

:08:06.:08:13.

what you heard from Mrs Thatcher. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown would

:08:14.:08:17.

not have dared to say it either even if they believed it. It raises a

:08:18.:08:22.

much bigger question which is, as well as whether this is a set of

:08:23.:08:29.

progressive measures, the Resolution Foundation constantly argued when

:08:30.:08:33.

George Osborne announced his budget measures as progressive when they

:08:34.:08:36.

were regressive when they checked out the figures, but also how this

:08:37.:08:40.

government was going to meet the demand for public services when it

:08:41.:08:45.

has ruled out virtually any tax rises that you would normally do

:08:46.:08:50.

now, including National Insurance. There are a whole range of nightmare

:08:51.:08:55.

issues on Philip Hammond's in-tray in relation to tax. The Resolution

:08:56.:08:59.

Foundation figures do not include the rise in the minimum wage which

:09:00.:09:04.

has just gone under way. They do not include the tax free childcare from

:09:05.:09:08.

the end of April, the extra 15 hours of free childcare from September.

:09:09.:09:13.

Even when you include these, it does not look like it would offset the

:09:14.:09:17.

losses of the poorest households. Doesn't that have to be a problem

:09:18.:09:22.

for Theresa May? It really is a problem especially when her

:09:23.:09:26.

narrative and indeed entire purpose in government is for that just about

:09:27.:09:31.

managing. What Mrs May still has which is exactly a problem they have

:09:32.:09:36.

at the budget and the Autumn Statement is that they are still

:09:37.:09:39.

saddled with George Osborne's massive ring fences on tax cuts and

:09:40.:09:45.

spending. They have to go through with the tax cut for the middle

:09:46.:09:49.

classes by pushing up the higher rate threshold which is absolutely

:09:50.:09:53.

going to do nothing for the just about managing. When they try to

:09:54.:09:57.

mitigate that, for example, in the Autumn Statement, Philip Hammond was

:09:58.:10:00.

told to come up with more money to ease the cuts in tax credits, came

:10:01.:10:05.

up with 350 million, an absolute... It is billions and billions

:10:06.:10:11.

involved. Marginal adjustment. A huge problem with the actual tax and

:10:12.:10:15.

benefit changes going on with what Mrs May as saying. The only way to

:10:16.:10:19.

fix it is coming up with more money to alleviate that. Where will you

:10:20.:10:23.

find it? Philip Hammond tried in the Budget with the National Insurance

:10:24.:10:27.

rises but it lasted six and a half days. I was told that it was one of

:10:28.:10:33.

the reasons why the Chancellor looked kindly on the idea of an

:10:34.:10:38.

early election because he wanted to get rid of what he regards as an

:10:39.:10:44.

albatross around his neck, the Tory manifesto 2015, no increase in

:10:45.:10:48.

income tax, no increase in VAT, no increase in National Insurance, fuel

:10:49.:10:53.

duty was not cut when fuel prices were falling so it is hardly going

:10:54.:10:56.

to rise now when they are rising again. This is why, I suggest, they

:10:57.:11:03.

end up in these incredibly complicated what we used to call

:11:04.:11:07.

stealth taxes as ways of trying to raise money and invariably a blow up

:11:08.:11:12.

in your face. Stealth taxes never end up being stealthy. It is part of

:11:13.:11:17.

the narrative that budget begins to fall apart within hours. You have to

:11:18.:11:23.

have sympathy, as Tom says, with Philip Hammond. No wonder he would

:11:24.:11:26.

like to be liberated. The early election will not happen. The best

:11:27.:11:31.

argument I have heard for an early election. The tax and spend about at

:11:32.:11:35.

the last election was a disaster partly because the Conservatives

:11:36.:11:40.

feared they would lose. Maybe they could be a bit more candid about the

:11:41.:11:45.

need to put up some taxes to pay for public services and it is very

:11:46.:11:51.

interesting what you picked up on Philip Hammond because he is

:11:52.:11:55.

trapped. So constrained about... You can also reopen the Ring fencing and

:11:56.:12:02.

spending and the obvious place to go is the triple lock, OAP spending.

:12:03.:12:08.

Another case for an election. He cannot undo the promise to that

:12:09.:12:13.

demographic. We will not get to 2020 without something breaking. The

:12:14.:12:17.

Prime Minister, the trade secretary and Mr Hammond, they are off to

:12:18.:12:24.

India, the Far East, talking up trade with these countries, I do not

:12:25.:12:30.

know if any of you are going? Sadly not. Will it produce dividends? The

:12:31.:12:35.

prime Minster is going somewhere too. No, it will not, the honest

:12:36.:12:42.

answer. No one will do a trade deal with us because we cannot do one

:12:43.:12:46.

because we are still in the EU and they need to know what our terms

:12:47.:12:49.

will be with the EU first before they can work out how they want to

:12:50.:12:53.

trade with us. This is vital preparatory work. Ministers always

:12:54.:12:57.

go somewhere in recess, it is what they do. We will not see anything in

:12:58.:13:01.

a hurry, we will not see anything for two years. They have to do it.

:13:02.:13:07.

Whatever side of the joint you are on, Brexit, remain, we need to get

:13:08.:13:13.

out there. -- the argument. We should have been doing this the day

:13:14.:13:16.

after the referendum result. It is now several months down the line and

:13:17.:13:20.

they need to step it up, not the opposite. You can make some informal

:13:21.:13:27.

talks, I guess. You can say, Britain is open for business. There is a

:13:28.:13:31.

symbolism to it. What a lot of energy sucked up into this.

:13:32.:13:36.

Parliament is not sitting so they might as well start talking. We have

:13:37.:13:42.

run out of energy and time. That is it for today. We are off for the

:13:43.:13:47.

Easter recess, back in two weeks' time. If it is Sunday, it is the

:13:48.:13:51.

Sunday Politics. Unless it is that used to recess! -- Easter recess.

:13:52.:14:20.

Marine Le Pen has her eyes on the French presidency.

:14:21.:14:23.

As she tries to distance herself from her party's controversial past,

:14:24.:14:27.

we follow the money and ask, "Who's funding her campaign?"

:14:28.:14:31.

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