29/10/2017 Sunday Politics South West


29/10/2017

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone.

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I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome

to The Sunday Politics,

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where we always bring you everything

you need to know to understand

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what's going on in politics.

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Coming up on today's programme...

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The Government says

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the international trade minister

Mark Garnier will be investigated

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following newspaper allegations

of inappropriate behaviour

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towards a female staff member.

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We'll have the latest.

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The Prime Minister says she can

agree a deal with the EU and plenty

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of time for Parliament to vote on it

before we leave in 2018. Well

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Parliament play ball? New evidence

cast out on the economic and

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In the south-west, MPs aske

Defence Secretary about reports

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Devonport's amphibious ships have

been

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offered for sale to navies

in Brazil and Chile.

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on from the abortion act white MPs

are lobbying the Home Secretary to

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stop the alleged harassment of women

attending abortion clinics.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today to help make sense

of all the big stories,

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Julia Hartley-Brewer,

Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy.

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Some breaking news this morning.

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The Government has announced

that it will investigate

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whether the International Trade

Minister Mark Garnier broke

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the Ministerial Code

following allegations

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of inappropriate behaviour.

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It comes after reports in the Mail

on Sunday which has spoken to one

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of Mr Garnier's former employees.

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News of the investigation

was announced by the Health

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Secretary Jeremy Hunt

on the Andrew Marr show earlier.

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The stories, if they are true,

are totally unacceptable

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and the Cabinet Office will be

conducting an investigation

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as to whether there has been

a breach of the ministerial code

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in this particular case.

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But as you know the

facts are disputed.

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This is something that covers

behaviour by MPs of all parties

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and that is why the other thing

that is going to happen

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is that today Theresa May

is going to write to John Bercow,

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the Speaker of the House of Commons,

to ask for his advice as to how

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we change that culture.

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That was Jeremy Hunt a little

earlier. I want to turn to the panel

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to make sense of this news. This is

the government taking these

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allegations quite seriously.

What

has changed in this story is they

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used to be a bit of delay while

people work out what they should say

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about it, how seriously to take it.

As you see now a senior cabinet

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member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with

an instant response. He does have

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the worry of whether the facts are

disputed, but what they want to be

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seen doing is to do something very

quickly. In the past they would say

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it was all part of the rough and

tumble of Westminster.

Mark Garnier

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does not deny these stories, which

is that he asked an employee to buy

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sex toys, but he said it was just

high jinks and it was taken out of

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context. Is this the sort of thing

that a few years ago in a different

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environment would be investigated?

Not necessarily quite the frenzy

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that it is nowadays. The combination

of social media, all the Sunday

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political programmes were ministers

have to go on armed with a response

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means that you get these we have to

be seen to be doing something. That

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means there is this Cabinet Office

investigation. You pointed out to us

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before the programme that he was not

a minister before this happened. It

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does not matter whether he says yes,

know I did this or did not,

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something has to be seen to be done.

Clearly ministers today are being

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armed with that bit of information

and that Theresa May will ask John

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Bercow the speaker to look into the

whole culture of Parliament in this

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context. That is the response to

this kind of frenzy.

If we do live

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in an environment where something

has to be seen to be done, does that

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always mean the right thing gets

done?

Absolutely not. We are in

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witch hunt territory. All of us work

in the Commons over many years and

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anyone would think it was a scene

out of Benny Hill or a carry on

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film. Sadly it is not that much fun

and it is rather dull and dreary.

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Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there

is sexual harassment, but the idea

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this is going on on a huge scale is

nonsense.

Doesn't matter whether it

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is a huge scale or not? Or just a

few instances?

Any workplace where

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you have the mixing of work and

social so intertwined and you throw

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a huge amount of alcohol and late

night and people living away from

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home you will have this happen.

That

does not make it OK.

It makes sexual

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harassment not OK as it is not

anywhere. This happens to men as

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well and if they have an issue into

it there are employment tribunal 's

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and they can contact lawyers. I do

not think this should be a matter of

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the speaker, it should be someone

completely independent of any party.

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People think MPs are employees of

the party or the Commons, they are

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not.

Because they are self-employed

to whom do you go if you are a

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researcher?

That has to be

clarified. I agree you need a much

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clearer line of reporting. It was a

bit like the situation when we came

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into the media many years ago, the

Punic wars in my case! You were not

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quite sure who to go to. If you work

worried that it might impede your

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career, and you had to talk to

people who work next to you, that is

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just one example, but in the Commons

people do not know who they should

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go to. Where Theresa May might be

making a mistake, it is the same

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mistake when it was decided to

investigate through Levinson the

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culture of the media which was like

nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the

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culture of anybody's job and the

environment they are in and there is

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usually a lot wrong with it. When

you try and make it general, they

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are not trying to blame individuals,

or it say they need a better line on

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reporting of sexual harassment,

which I support, the Commons is a

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funny place and it is a rough old

trade and you are never going to

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iron out the human foibles of that.

Diane Abbott was talking about this

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earlier.

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When I first went into Parliament so

many of those men had been to all

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boys boarding schools and had really

difficult attitudes towards women.

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The world has moved on and

middle-aged women are less likely

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than middle-aged men to believe that

young research are irresistibly

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attracted to them. We have seen the

issues and we have seen one of our

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colleagues been suspended for quite

unacceptable language.

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That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a

Labour MP who has had the whip

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suspended, this goes across all

parties.

The idea that there is a

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left or right divide over this is

absurd. This is a cultural issue. In

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the media and in a lot of other

institutions if this is going to

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develop politically, the frenzy will

carry on for a bit and other names

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will come out over the next few

days, not just the two we have

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mentioned so far in politics. But it

also raises questions about how

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candidates are selected for example.

There has been a huge pressure for

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the centre to keep out of things. I

bet from now on there will be much

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greater scrutiny of all candidates

and tweets will have to be looked at

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and all the rest of it.

Selecting

candidates is interesting. Miriam

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Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says

that during that election they knew

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about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems

knew about it, so it is difficult to

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suggest the Labour Party did not as

well.

There is very clear evidence

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the Labour Party did know. But we

are in a situation of how perfect

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and well-behaved does everyone have

to be? If you look at past American

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presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton,

these men were sex pest

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extraordinaire, with totally

inappropriate behaviour on a regular

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basis. There are things you are not

allowed to say if you are feminists.

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Young women are really attracted to

powerful men. I was busted for the

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idea that there are young women in

the House of commons who are

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throwing themselves at middle-aged,

potbellied, balding, older men. We

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need to focus on the right things.

When it is unwanted, harassing,

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inappropriate and criminal,

absolutely, you come down like a

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tonne of bricks. It is not just

because there are more women in the

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Commons, it is because there are

more men married to women like us.

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We have to leave it there.

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As attention turns in

Westminster to the hundreds

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of amendments put down on the EU

Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has

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caused a stir this week by saying

it's possible Parliament won't get

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a vote on the Brexit deal

until after March 2019 -

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when the clock runs out

and we leave the EU.

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Let's take a look at how

the controversy played out.

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And which point do you envisage

Parliament having a vote?

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As soon as possible thereafter.

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This Parliament?

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As soon as possible

possible thereafter, yeah.

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As soon as possible thereafter.

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So, the vote in Parliament...

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The other thing...

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Could be after March 2019?

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It could be, yeah, it could be.

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The...

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It depends when it concludes.

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Mr Barnier, remember,

has said he'd like...

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Sorry, the vote of our Parliament,

the UK Parliament, could be

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after March 2019?

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Yes, it could be.

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Could be.

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The thing to member...

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Which would be...

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Well, it can't come

before we have the deal.

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You said that it is POSSIBLE that

Parliament night not vote

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on the deal until AFTER

the end of March 2019.

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I'm summarising correctly

what you said...?

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Yeah, that's correct.

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In the event we don't do

the deal until then, yeah.

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Can the Prime Minister please

explain how it's possible

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to have a meaningful vote

on something that's

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already taken place?

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As the honourable gentleman knows,

we're in negotiations

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with the European Union, but I am

confident that the timetable under

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the Lisbon Treaty does give time

until March 2019

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for the negotiations to take place.

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But I'm confident, because it is in

the interests of both sides,

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it's not just this Parliament that

wants to have a vote on that deal,

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but actually there will be

ratification by other parliaments,

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that we will be able to achieve that

agreement and that negotiation

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in time for this Parliament

to have a vote that we committed to.

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We are working to reach

an agreement on the final deal

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in good time before we leave

the European Union in March 2019.

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Clearly, we cannot say

for certain at this stage

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when this will be agreed.

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But as Michel Barnier said,

he hopes to get a draft deal

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agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim is well.

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agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim as well.

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I'm joined now by the former

Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary

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Benn, who is the chair

of the Commons Brexit Committee,

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which David Davis was

giving evidence to.

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Good morning.

When you think a

parliamentary vote should take place

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in order for it to be meaningful?

It

has to be before we leave the

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European Union. Michel Barnier said

at the start of the negotiations

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that he wants to wrap them up by

October of next year, so we have

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only got 12 months left, the clock

is ticking and there is a huge

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amount of ground to cover.

You do

not think there is any point in

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having the vote the week before we

leave because you could then not go

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and re-negotiate?

That would not be

acceptable. We will not be given a

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bit of paper and told to take it or

leave it. But the following day

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Steve Baker, also a minister in the

department, told our committee that

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the government now accepts that in

order to implement transitional

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arrangements that it is seeking, it

will need separate legislation. I

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put the question to him if you are

going to need separate legislation

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to do that, why don't you have a

separate bill to implement the

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withdrawal agreement rather than

seeking to use the powers the

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government is proposing to take in

the EU withdrawal bill.

If we stick

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to the timing, you have said you do

not think it is possible to

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negotiate a trade deal in the next

12 months. You say the only people

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who think that is possible British

ministers. If you do not believe we

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can get a deal negotiated, how can

we get a vote on it in 12 months'

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time?

If things go well, and there

is still a risk of no agreement

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which would be disastrous for the

economy and the country, if

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things go there will be a deal on

the divorce issues, there will be a

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deal on the nature of the

transitional arrangement and the

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government is to set out how it

thinks that will work, and then an

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agreement between the UK and the 27

member states saying, we will now

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negotiate a new trade and market

access arrangement, and new

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association agreement between the

two parties, and that will be done

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in the transition period. Parliament

will be voting in those

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circumstances on a deal which leads

to the door being open.

But we would

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be outside the EU at that point, so

how meaningful can vote be where you

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take it or leave it if we have

already left the EU? Surely this has

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to happen before March 2019 for it

to make a difference?

I do not think

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it is possible to negotiate all of

the issues that will need to be

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covered in the time available.

Then

it is not possible to have a

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meaningful vote on it?

Parliament

will have to have a look at the deal

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presented to it. It is likely to be

a mix agreement so the approval

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process in the rest of Europe,

unlike the Article 50 agreement,

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which will be a majority vote in the

European Parliament and in the

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British Parliament, every single

Parliament will have a vote on it,

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so it will be a more complex process

anyway, but I do not think that is

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the time to get all of that sorted

between now and October next year.

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Whether it is before or after we

have left the EU, the government

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have said it is a take it or leave

it option and it is the Noel Edmonds

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option, deal or no Deal, you say yes

or no to it. You cannot send them

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back to re-negotiate.

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If it is a separate piece of

legislation, when Parliament has a

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chance to shape the nature of that

legislation.

But it can't change

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what has been negotiated with the

EU?

Well, you could say to the

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government, we're happy with this

but was not happy about that chukka

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here's some fresh instructions, go

back in and...

It seems to me what

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they want is the maximum access to

the single market for the lowest

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possible tariffs, whilst able to

control migration. If they've got to

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get the best deal that they can on

that, how on earth is the Labour

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Party, saying we want a bit more,

owing to persuade the other 27?

We

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certainly don't want the lowest

possible tariffs, we want no tariffs

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are taught. My personal view is

that, has made a profound mistake in

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deciding that it wants to leave the

customs union. If you want to help

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deal with the very serious question

of the border between Northern

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Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,

the way you do that is to stay in

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the customs union and I hope, will

change its mind.

But the Labour

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Party is simply saying in the House

of Commons, we want a better deal

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than what, has been able to get?

It

depends how the negotiations unfold.

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, has ended up on the transitional

arrangements in the place that Keir

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Starmer set out on behalf of the

shadow cabinet in August, when he

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said, we will need to stay in the

single market and the customs union

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for the duration of the transition,

and I think that is the position,

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has now reached. It has not been

helped by differences of view within

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the Cabinet, and a lot of time has

passed and there's proved time left

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and we have not even got on to the

negotiations. -- there's very little

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time left.

On phase two, the labour

Party have set out six clear tests,

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and two of them are crucial. You say

you want the exact same benefits we

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currently have in the customs union

but you also want to be able to

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ensure the fair migration to control

immigration, basically, which does

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sound a bit like having your cake

and eating it. You say that you will

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vote against any deal that doesn't

give you all of that, the exact same

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benefits of the single market, and

allowing you to control migration.

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But you say no deal would be

catastrophic if so it seems to me

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you're unlikely to get the deal that

you could vote for but you don't

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want to vote for no deal?

We

absolutely don't want a no deal.

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Businesses have sent a letter to the

Prime Minister saying that a

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transition is essential because the

possibility of a no deal and no

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transitional would be very damaging

for the economy. We fought the

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general election on a policy of

seeking to retain the benefits of

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the single market and the customs

union. Keir Starmer said on behalf

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of the shadow government that as far

as the longer term arrangements are

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concerned, that should leave all

options on the table, because it is

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the end that you're trying to

achieve and you then find the means

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to support it. So we're setting out

very clearly those tests.

If you

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were to vote down an agreement

because it did not meet your tests,

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and there was time to send, back to

the EU to get a better deal, then

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you would have significantly

weakened their negotiating hand

0:18:500:18:52

chukka that doesn't help them?

I

don't think, has deployed its

0:18:520:18:57

negotiating hand very strongly thus

far. Because we had a general

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election which meant that we lost

time that we would have used for

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negotiating. We still don't know

what kind of long-term trade and

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market access deal, wants. The Prime

Minister says, I don't want a deal

0:19:080:19:15

like Canada and I don't want a deal

like the European Economic Area. But

0:19:150:19:19

we still don't know what kind of

deal they want. With about 12 months

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to go, the other thing, needs to do

is to set out very clearly above all

0:19:240:19:28

for the benefit of the other 27

European countries, what kind of

0:19:280:19:32

deal it wants. When I travel to

Europe and talk to those involved in

0:19:320:19:36

the negotiations, you see other

leaders saying, we don't actually

0:19:360:19:41

know what Britain wants. With a year

to go it is about time we made that

0:19:410:19:44

clear.

One related question on the

European Union - you spoke in your

0:19:440:19:50

famous speech in Syria about the

international brigades in Spain, and

0:19:500:19:54

I wonder if your solidarity with

them leads you to think that the UK

0:19:540:19:58

Government should be recognising

Catalonia is an independent state?

0:19:580:20:01

No, I don't think so. It is a very

difficult and potentially dangerous

0:20:010:20:06

situation in Catalonia at the

moment. Direct rule from Madrid is

0:20:060:20:12

not a long-term solution. There

needs to be a negotiation, and

0:20:120:20:17

elections will give Catalonia the

chance to take that decision, but I

0:20:170:20:20

am not clear what the declaration of

independence actually means. Are

0:20:200:20:27

they going to be borders, is they're

going to be an army? There will have

0:20:270:20:31

to be some agreement. Catalonia has

already had a high degree of

0:20:310:20:34

autonomy. It may like some more, and

it seems to me if you look at the

0:20:340:20:39

experience here in the United

Kingdom, that is the way to go, not

0:20:390:20:44

a constitutional stand-off. And I

really hope nobody is charged with

0:20:440:20:47

rebellion, because actually that

would make matters worse.

0:20:470:20:52

Now, the Government has this

week reopened the public

0:20:520:20:56

consultation on plans for a third

runway at Heathrow.

0:20:560:20:58

While ministers are clear

the £18 billion project

0:20:580:21:00

is still the preferred option,

new data raises further questions

0:21:000:21:02

about the environmental

impact of expansion,

0:21:020:21:04

and offers an improved

economic case for a second

0:21:040:21:06

runway at Gatwick instead.

0:21:060:21:07

So, with opponents on all sides

of the Commons, does the Government

0:21:070:21:10

still have the votes to get

the plans off the ground?

0:21:100:21:12

Here's Elizabeth Glinka.

0:21:120:21:22

The debate over the expansion

of Heathrow has been

0:21:260:21:28

going on for decades.

0:21:280:21:29

Plans for a third runway

were first introduced

0:21:290:21:32

by the Labour government in 2003.

0:21:320:21:33

Then, after spending millions

of pounds, finally, in 2015,

0:21:330:21:37

the airport commission recommended

that those plans go ahead,

0:21:370:21:42

and the government position

appeared to be fixed.

0:21:420:21:46

But, of course, since then,

we've had a general election.

0:21:460:21:48

The Government have lost

their Commons majority.

0:21:480:21:52

And with opposition on both front

benches, the Parliamentary

0:21:520:21:55

arithmetic looks a little bit up

in the air.

0:21:550:22:00

A lot has changed since the airport

commission produced its report,

0:22:000:22:03

and that don't forget

was the bedrock for the Government's

0:22:030:22:05

decision, that's why the government

supposedly made the decision

0:22:050:22:07

that it made.

0:22:070:22:09

But most of the assumptions

made in that report have

0:22:090:22:12

been undermined since,

by data on passenger numbers,

0:22:120:22:14

on economic benefits, and more

than anything, on pollution.

0:22:140:22:17

There's demand from international

carriers to get into Heathrow.

0:22:170:22:20

More and more people want to fly.

0:22:200:22:22

And after the referendum,

connectivity post-Brexit

0:22:220:22:25

is going to be absolutely critical

to the UK economy, so if anything,

0:22:250:22:29

I think the case is stronger

for expansion at Heathrow.

0:22:290:22:35

A vote on expansion had been due

to take place this summer.

0:22:350:22:38

But with Westminster somewhat

distracted, that didn't happen.

0:22:380:22:40

Now, fresh data means

the Government has had to reopen

0:22:400:22:43

the public consultation.

0:22:430:22:48

But it maintains the case

for Heathrow is as strong as ever,

0:22:480:22:52

delivering benefits of up

to £74 billion to the wider economy.

0:22:520:22:57

And in any case, the Government

says, action must be taken,

0:22:570:22:59

as all five of London's airports

will be completely

0:22:590:23:04

full by the mid-2030s.

0:23:040:23:08

Still, the new research does cast

an alternative expansion at Gatwick

0:23:080:23:11

in a more favourable economic light,

while showing Heathrow

0:23:110:23:15

is now less likely to meet

its environmental targets.

0:23:150:23:22

Campaigners like these in Hounslow

sense the wind is shifting.

0:23:220:23:27

We're feeling encouraged,

because we see all kinds

0:23:270:23:29

of weaknesses in the argument.

0:23:290:23:31

Certainly, quite a few MPs,

I think certainly Labour MPs,

0:23:310:23:34

are beginning to think perhaps it's

not such a great idea

0:23:340:23:37

to have a third runway.

0:23:370:23:40

Their MP is convinced colleagues

can now be persuaded

0:23:400:23:42

to see things their way.

0:23:420:23:44

The Labour Party quite

rightly set four key tests

0:23:440:23:46

for a third runway at Heathrow.

0:23:460:23:49

And in my view,

Heathrow is not able...

0:23:490:23:52

The Heathrow option is not able

to pass any of those.

0:23:520:23:56

So, I see a lot of colleagues

in the Labour Party around

0:23:560:23:59

the country beginning

to think twice.

0:23:590:24:02

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow

0:24:020:24:07

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow

0:24:070:24:11

protest this week, you will see

some familiar faces.

0:24:110:24:13

You know my position -

as the constituency MP,

0:24:130:24:15

I'm totally opposed.

0:24:150:24:16

I think this is another indication

of just the difficulties

0:24:160:24:19

the Government have got off

of implementing this policy.

0:24:190:24:21

I don't think it's going to happen,

I just don't think

0:24:210:24:24

it's going to happen.

0:24:240:24:25

So, if some on the Labour

front bench are, shall

0:24:250:24:27

we say, not supportive,

what about the other side?

0:24:270:24:30

In a free vote, we could have had up

to 60 Conservative MPs

0:24:300:24:33

voting against expansion,

that's the number that is normally

0:24:330:24:35

used and I think it's right.

0:24:350:24:37

In the circumstances where it

requires an active rebellion,

0:24:370:24:39

the numbers would be fewer.

0:24:390:24:40

I can't tell you what that

number is, but I can tell

0:24:400:24:43

you that there are people right

the way through the party,

0:24:430:24:46

from the backbenches

to the heart of the government,

0:24:460:24:48

who will vote against

Heathrow expansion.

0:24:480:24:50

And yet the SNP, whose Commons

votes could prove vital,

0:24:500:24:53

are behind the Heathrow plan,

which promises more

0:24:530:24:55

connecting flights.

0:24:550:24:56

And other supporters are convinced

they have the numbers.

0:24:560:25:00

There is a majority of members

of Parliament that support Heathrow

0:25:000:25:04

expansion, and when that is put

to the test, whenever that will be,

0:25:040:25:07

I think that will be

clearly demonstrated.

0:25:070:25:08

Any vote on this issue

won't come until next summer.

0:25:080:25:11

For both sides, yet more time

to argue about weather

0:25:110:25:13

the plans should take off

or be permanently grounded.

0:25:130:25:20

Elizabeth Glinka there.

0:25:240:25:25

And I'm joined now by the former

Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,

0:25:250:25:28

who oversaw aviation policy

as a transport minister

0:25:280:25:30

under David Cameron.

0:25:300:25:37

Thanks for coming in. You have made

your opposition to a third runway at

0:25:370:25:42

Heathrow consistently clear. , have

reopened this consultation but it is

0:25:420:25:46

still clearly their preferred

option?

It is but what I have always

0:25:460:25:50

asked is, why try to build a new

runway at Heathrow when you can

0:25:500:25:53

build one at Gatwick in half the

time, for half the cost and with a

0:25:530:25:57

tiny fraction of the environment

will cost average is that true,

0:25:570:26:01

though? Private finance is already

to go at Heathrow, because that's

0:26:010:26:04

where people want to do it and

that's where the private backers

0:26:040:26:08

want to put it. It would take much

longer to get the private finance

0:26:080:26:11

for Gatwick? Part of that private

finance is passengers of the future,

0:26:110:26:16

but also, the costs of the surface

transport needed to expand Heathrow

0:26:160:26:21

is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates

vary between £10 billion and £15

0:26:210:26:29

billion. And there's no suggestion

that those private backers are going

0:26:290:26:32

to meet those costs. So, this is a

hugely expensive project as well as

0:26:320:26:37

one which will create very

significant damage.

Heathrow is

0:26:370:26:42

ultimately where passengers and

airlines want to go to, isn't it?

0:26:420:26:44

Every slot is practically full.

Every time a new one comes up, it is

0:26:440:26:49

up immediately, it's a very popular

airport. Gatwick is not where they

0:26:490:26:55

want to go?

There are many airlines

and passengers who do want to fly

0:26:550:26:58

from Gatwick, and all the forecasts

indicate that a new runway there

0:26:580:27:02

would be full of planes very

rapidly. But I think the key thing

0:27:020:27:06

is that successive elements have

said, technology will deliver a way

0:27:060:27:12

to resolve the around noise and air

quality. I don't have any confidence

0:27:120:27:17

that science has demonstrated that

technology will deliver those

0:27:170:27:22

solutions to these very serious

environmental limbs which have

0:27:220:27:26

stopped Heathrow expansion for

decades.

Jim Fitzpatrick in the film

0:27:260:27:28

was mentioning that people think

there is a need for even more

0:27:280:27:33

collectivity in Britain post-Brexit.

We know that business has been

0:27:330:27:36

crying out for more routes, they

really think it hurts business

0:27:360:27:40

expansion that we don't get on with

this. More consultation is just

0:27:400:27:44

going to lead to more delay, isn't

it?

This is a hugely controversial

0:27:440:27:48

decision. There is a reason why

people have been talking about

0:27:480:27:51

expanding Heathrow for 50 years and

it is never happened, it's because

0:27:510:27:55

it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the

legal processes are very complex.

0:27:550:28:00

One of my anxieties about, pursuing

this option is that potentially it

0:28:000:28:04

means another lost decade for

airport expansion. Because the

0:28:040:28:07

problems with Heathrow expansion are

so serious, I believe that's one of

0:28:070:28:13

the reasons why I advocated, anyone

who wants a new runway in the

0:28:130:28:16

south-east should be backing Gatwick

is a much more deliverable option.

0:28:160:28:20

Let me move on to Brexit. We were

talking with Hilary Benn about a

0:28:200:28:26

meaningful vote being given to the

House of Commons chukka how

0:28:260:28:29

important do you think that is?

Of

course the Commons will vote on

0:28:290:28:32

this. The Commons is going to vote

on this many, many times. We have

0:28:320:28:38

also had a hugely important vote not

only in the referendum on the 23rd

0:28:380:28:41

of June but also on Article 50.

But

will that vote allow any changes to

0:28:410:28:45

it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that

the Commons would be able to shape

0:28:450:28:51

the deal with the vote. But actually

is it going to be, saying, take it

0:28:510:28:55

or leave it at all what we have

negotiated?

Our Prime Minister

0:28:550:29:00

negotiates on our behalf

internationally. It's

0:29:000:29:05

well-established precedent that

after an agreement is reached

0:29:050:29:08

overseas, then it is considered in

the House of Commons.

What if it was

0:29:080:29:13

voted down in the House of Commons?

Well, the legal effect of that would

0:29:130:29:17

be that we left the European Union

without any kind of deal, because

0:29:170:29:20

the key decision was on the voting

of Article 50 as an irreversible

0:29:200:29:25

decision.

Is it irreversible,

though? We understand, may have had

0:29:250:29:31

legal advice saying that Yukon

stopped the clock on Article 50.

0:29:310:29:34

Would it not be possible if the

Commons voted against to ask the

0:29:340:29:38

European Union for a little bit more

time to try and renegotiate?

There

0:29:380:29:41

is a debate about the reversibility

of Article 50. But the key point is

0:29:410:29:50

that we are all working for a good

deal for the United Kingdom and the

0:29:500:29:55

I'm concerned that some of the

amendments to the legislation are

0:29:550:30:00

not about the nature of the deal at

the end of the process, they're just

0:30:000:30:03

about frustrating the process. I

think that would be wrong. I think

0:30:030:30:09

we should respect the result of the

referendum.

Will it be by next

0:30:090:30:12

summer, so there is time for

Parliament and for other

0:30:120:30:15

parliaments?

I certainly hope that

we get that agreement between the

0:30:150:30:18

two sides, and the recent European

summit seemed to indicate a

0:30:180:30:24

willingness from the European side

to be constructive. But one point

0:30:240:30:27

where I think Hilary Benn has a

point, if we do secure agreement on

0:30:270:30:32

a transitional deal, that does

potentially give us more time to

0:30:320:30:34

work on the details of a trade

agreement. I hope we get as much as

0:30:340:30:39

possible in place before exit day.

But filling out some of that detail

0:30:390:30:43

is made easier if we can secure that

two-year transitional deal.

0:30:430:30:52

That is interesting because a lot of

Brexiteers what the deal to be done

0:30:520:30:58

by the inflammation period, it is

not a time for that.

I fully

0:30:580:31:06

recognise we need compromise, I am

keen to work with people across my

0:31:060:31:11

party in terms of spectrum of

opinion, and with other parties as

0:31:110:31:14

well to ensure we get the best

outcome.

Let me ask you briefly

0:31:140:31:20

before you go about the possible

culture of sexual harassment in the

0:31:200:31:24

House of commons and Theresa May

will write to the Speaker of the

0:31:240:31:29

House of Commons to make sure there

is a better way that people can

0:31:290:31:32

report sexual harassment in the

House of commons. Is that necessary?

0:31:320:31:37

A better procedure is needed. It is

sad it has taken this controversy to

0:31:370:31:42

push this forward. But there is a

problem with MPs who are individual

0:31:420:31:47

employers. If you work for an MP and

have a complaint against them,

0:31:470:31:52

essentially they are overseeing

their own complaints process. I

0:31:520:31:56

think a role for the House of

commons authorities in ensuring that

0:31:560:32:00

those complaints are properly dealt

with I think would be very helpful,

0:32:000:32:04

so I think the Prime Minister's

letter was a sensible move.

So you

0:32:040:32:09

think there is a culture of sexual

harassment in the House of commons?

0:32:090:32:12

I have not been subjected to it or

seen evidence of it, but obviously

0:32:120:32:19

there is anxiety and allegations

have made their way into the papers

0:32:190:32:22

and they should be treated

appropriately and properly

0:32:220:32:26

investigated.

Thank you for talking

to us.

0:32:260:32:28

Thank you for talking to us.

0:32:280:32:30

Next week the Lord Speaker's

committee publishes its final report

0:32:300:32:32

into reducing the size

of the House of Lords.

0:32:320:32:35

With over 800 members the upper

house is the second largest

0:32:350:32:37

legislative chamber in the world

after the National People's

0:32:370:32:39

Congress of China.

0:32:390:32:40

The report is expected to recommend

that new peerages should be

0:32:400:32:43

time-limited to 15 years and that

in the future political peerage

0:32:430:32:46

appointments will also be tied

to a party's election performance.

0:32:460:32:50

The government has been under

pressure to take action to cut

0:32:500:32:53

members of the unelected chamber,

where they are entitled

0:32:530:32:56

to claim an attendance

allowance of £300 a day.

0:32:560:33:00

And once again these expenses

have been in the news.

0:33:000:33:03

The Electoral Reform Society

discovered that 16 peers had claimed

0:33:030:33:06

around £400,000 without speaking

in any debates or submitting any

0:33:060:33:09

questions for an entire year.

0:33:090:33:12

One of the Lords to be

criticised was Digby Jones,

0:33:120:33:15

the crossbencher and former trade

minister, he hasn't spoken

0:33:150:33:18

in the Lords since April 2016

and has voted only seven times

0:33:180:33:22

during 2016 and 2017.

0:33:220:33:25

Yet he has claimed around

£15,000 in this period.

0:33:250:33:28

When asked what he does

in the House he said,

0:33:280:33:31

"I go in and I will invite for lunch

or meet with inward

0:33:310:33:34

investors into the country.

0:33:340:33:35

I fly the flag for Britain."

0:33:350:33:39

Well, we can speak now

to Lord Jones who joins us

0:33:390:33:41

from Stratford Upon Avon.

0:33:410:33:45

Thank you very much for talking to

us. You provide value for money in

0:33:450:33:50

the House of Lords do you think?

Definitely. I am, by the way, very

0:33:500:33:57

keen on reform. I want to see that

15 year tide. I would like to see a

0:33:570:34:02

time limit, an age limit of 75 or

80. I would like attendants

0:34:020:34:08

definitely define so the whole

public understood what people are

0:34:080:34:12

paying for and why. The £300, as a

crossbencher I get no support, and

0:34:120:34:18

nor do I want any, speech writing,

secretarial assistance, none of

0:34:180:34:26

that, and the £300 goes towards

that.

Whilst you are in there

0:34:260:34:31

because we will talk about the

reform of the Lords in general, but

0:34:310:34:35

in terms of you yourself, you say

you invite people in for lunch, is

0:34:350:34:39

it not possible for you to take part

in debates and votes and ask

0:34:390:34:43

questions at the same time?

Have you

ever listened to a debate in the

0:34:430:34:48

laws? Yes, many times.

Yes, many

times. You have to put your name

0:34:480:35:00

down in advance and you have to be

there for the whole debate.

You have

0:35:000:35:08

to be around when the vote is called

and you do not know when the book is

0:35:080:35:12

called, you have no idea when the

boat is going to be called.

This is

0:35:120:35:16

part of being a member of the House

of Lords and what it means. If you

0:35:160:35:22

are not prepared to wait or take

part in debates, why do you want to

0:35:220:35:25

be a member? It is possible to

resign from the House of Lords.

0:35:250:35:30

There are many things members of the

Lords do that does not relate to

0:35:300:35:34

parrot fashion following somebody

else, which I refuse to do, about

0:35:340:35:39

speaking to an empty chamber, or

indeed hanging on sometimes for

0:35:390:35:44

hours to vote. There are many other

things that you do. You quote me as

0:35:440:35:49

saying I will entertain at lunchtime

or show people around the House,

0:35:490:35:54

everything from schoolchildren to

inward investors. I will meet

0:35:540:35:57

ministers about big business issues

or educational issues, and at the

0:35:570:36:01

same time I will meet other members

of the Lords to get things moving.

0:36:010:36:05

None of that relates to going into

the House and getting on your hind

0:36:050:36:09

legs, although I do go in and sit

there and learn and listen to

0:36:090:36:13

others, which, if more people would

receive and not transmit, we might

0:36:130:36:20

get a better informed society. At

the same time many times I will go

0:36:200:36:23

after I have listened and I am

leaving and if I have not heard the

0:36:230:36:28

debate, I will not vote.

Voting is

an essential part of being part of a

0:36:280:36:34

legislative chamber. This is not

just an executive committee, it is a

0:36:340:36:39

legislature, surpassing that law is

essential, is it not?

Do you really

0:36:390:36:45

believe that an MP or a member of

the Lords who has not heard a moment

0:36:450:36:49

of the debate, who is then listening

to the Bell, walks in and does not

0:36:490:36:55

know which lobby, the whips tell

him, they have not heard the debate

0:36:550:36:59

and they do not know what they are

voting on and they go and do it?

0:36:590:37:04

That is your democracy? Voting seems

to be an essential part of this

0:37:040:37:10

chamber, and you have your ideas

about reforming the chamber. It

0:37:100:37:15

sounds as though you would reform

yourself out of it. You say people

0:37:150:37:18

who are not voting and who are not

taking part in debate should no

0:37:180:37:22

longer be members of the House.

I

did not say that. I said we ought to

0:37:220:37:28

redefine what attendance means and

then if you do not attend on the new

0:37:280:37:33

criteria, you do not have to come

ever again, we will give you your

0:37:330:37:37

wish. I agree attendance might mean

unless you speak, you are going.

0:37:370:37:43

Fair enough, if that is what is

agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak

0:37:430:37:47

and sometimes I would not. If I did

not, then off I go. Similarly after

0:37:470:37:53

15 years, off you go. If you reach

75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have

0:37:530:37:59

92 members who are only there

because of daddy.

You are talking

0:37:590:38:05

about hereditary peers. You would

like to reduce the House to what

0:38:050:38:08

kind of number?

I would get it down

to 400.

You would get rid of half

0:38:080:38:15

the peers there at the moment? You

think you are active enough to

0:38:150:38:19

remain as one of the 400?

No, I said

that might well include me. Let's

0:38:190:38:26

get a set of criteria, let's push it

through, because the laws is losing

0:38:260:38:31

respect in the whole of the country

because there are too many and all

0:38:310:38:35

these things about what people pay

for. I bet most people think the

0:38:350:38:39

money you get is paid. It is not, it

is re-funding for all the things you

0:38:390:38:44

have to pay for yourself. But I

understand how respect has been lost

0:38:440:38:49

in society. Let's change it now.

Let's get it through and then, yes,

0:38:490:38:55

if you do not meet the criteria, you

have got to go and that includes me.

0:38:550:39:00

Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking

to us.

0:39:000:39:02

Lloyd Jones, thank

you for talking to us.

0:39:020:39:04

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:040:39:07

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be talking to the former

0:39:070:39:09

business minister and Conservative

MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit

0:39:090:39:12

negotiations and claims of sexual

harassment in Parliament.

0:39:120:39:22

Hello, I'm Lucy Fisher.

harassment in Parliament.

0:39:220:39:26

Coming up on the

Sunday Politics here

0:39:260:39:29

in the southwest...

0:39:290:39:30

You don't mess with Plymouth.

0:39:300:39:31

You don't mess with these ships.

0:39:310:39:33

You don't mess with the Navy.

0:39:330:39:34

We are here for the country.

0:39:340:39:37

The fight to secure

the future of the

0:39:370:39:43

nation's amphibious assault ships

based in Plymouth continues.

0:39:430:39:49

And for the next 20

minutes and join by

0:39:490:39:51

Conservative MP for North Cornwall,

Scott Mann, as the leader of the

0:39:510:39:54

Lib Dem group on Dorset

Council, Ros Kayes.

0:39:540:39:59

Welcome both of you

to the programme.

0:39:590:40:01

Let's start with another running

story which has been

0:40:010:40:03

developing this week -

the row over fishing safety.

0:40:030:40:06

Last week we discussed

a petition that is calling

0:40:060:40:08

for the coastguard to launch

lifeboats as soon as a fishing

0:40:080:40:10

vessel fails to return home on time.

0:40:100:40:13

It was started after the capsizing

of Plymouth trawler Solstice last

0:40:130:40:15

month, in which a fisherman died.

0:40:150:40:17

A third fatal incident in two years,

in which campaigners say there was a

0:40:170:40:20

delay launching lifeboats.

0:40:200:40:21

On Wednesday the MP

for South East Cornwall,

0:40:210:40:23

Cheryl Murray, told

the

0:40:230:40:25

Prime Minister she had

concerns about the petition.

0:40:250:40:33

I believe this is

irresponsible and puts our

0:40:330:40:37

valiant lifeboat crews in peril.

0:40:370:40:40

If they don't know

where they are going.

0:40:400:40:43

We know this in Cornwall.

0:40:430:40:45

Would the Prime Minister look

at making safety grants available so

0:40:450:40:47

that all fishing boats can

have an AIS locator beacon on board.

0:40:470:40:51

This would cost well

under £4 million.

0:40:510:40:55

Following that, the woman

who launched a petition said she was

0:40:550:40:58

staggered and disappointed

by Mrs Murray's intervention.

0:40:580:41:01

Lifeboatmen are very brave.

0:41:010:41:04

They go in to face the danger

to save us and others

0:41:040:41:07

every day.

0:41:070:41:08

That is what they do.

0:41:080:41:11

The petition is

supported

0:41:110:41:12

by lifeboat men.

0:41:120:41:18

By fishermen, by fishermen's

families and industry

0:41:180:41:19

more broadly.

0:41:190:41:20

Scott, whose side do

you come down on?

0:41:200:41:22

Do you believe the petition

is irresponsible or Cheryl

0:41:220:41:25

Murray's response to it?

0:41:250:41:26

Can I first of all just

so what happened on the

0:41:260:41:29

Solstice is very tragic

and I think there does need

0:41:290:41:31

to be a review.

0:41:310:41:33

My minister, John Hayes,

because I sit in the

0:41:330:41:35

Department for Transport,

has said he will leave

0:41:350:41:37

no stone unturned

in

0:41:370:41:38

terms of looking at what

happened in Plymouth.

0:41:380:41:44

Because there was a delay

in launching the lifeboat, which is

0:41:440:41:46

why this petition has been started.

0:41:460:41:48

You have got the north Cornish

coast in your patch.

0:41:480:41:51

Do you believe this idea

they should have a beacon on

0:41:510:41:54

the boat instead

is the way forwards?

0:41:540:41:55

There should be grants to get those?

0:41:550:41:57

Yeah, I think that is a solution.

0:41:570:41:59

With GPS technology as it currently

is at the moment, and the

0:41:590:42:02

way it is moving forward

as rapidly as it is,

0:42:020:42:04

I think it's important all boats

that are on the water have beacons

0:42:040:42:07

to know where they are.

0:42:070:42:13

I had a meeting last week

with the Pew Trust, and we were

0:42:130:42:17

talking about ocean safety and one

of their suggestions was that it

0:42:170:42:19

would obviously be good for safety

but it would also be good for

0:42:190:42:23

illegal fishing and to look

at people smuggling.

0:42:230:42:24

To know where the boats

are at all times.

0:42:240:42:27

Ros, we did have cuts

to the coastguard only two

0:42:270:42:29

years ago.

0:42:290:42:30

Do you think that has

had any impact on this?

0:42:300:42:33

I do think so, and I think

it's an example of an

0:42:330:42:35

ill thought through process.

0:42:350:42:36

I can understand,

although I didn't agree

0:42:360:42:40

with, the cuts to the coastguard,

but I think it needed to be backed

0:42:400:42:44

up with funding so individual boats

can afford to buy this

0:42:440:42:49

equipment.

0:42:490:42:53

If we cannot monitor them

and we have not got proper oversight

0:42:530:42:58

then incidents like this are only

going to occur more frequently.

0:42:580:43:00

And they are tragic

and I think it is up to

0:43:000:43:03

the Government to try to find

a solution to prevent that.

0:43:030:43:06

Scott, do you accept

that there might be a

0:43:060:43:09

link between coastguard cuts

and the lifeboat delays?

0:43:090:43:14

I think there is two

separate issues.

0:43:140:43:15

There is a process

issue regarding how the

0:43:150:43:17

coastguard and the RNLI join up

together, but also an issue around

0:43:170:43:20

technology and how we use

technology going forward.

0:43:200:43:27

I would say I think this

review is welcome and I am

0:43:270:43:30

hoping the Minister will be able

to get the people around the table

0:43:300:43:33

needs to to find out exactly

what happened

0:43:330:43:35

in Plymouth and see if we can

improve on the services provided.

0:43:350:43:40

And get the lifeboat out

a bit quicker in future.

0:43:400:43:43

OK, now, with economists

predicting an interest

0:43:430:43:45

rate rise on Thursday,

mortgages could be about to get more

0:43:450:43:48

expensive, and even

further from the reach

0:43:480:43:49

of the thousands struggling

to

0:43:490:43:51

get on the housing ladder

here in the South West.

0:43:510:43:57

This week, MPs debated

a petition started by a

0:43:570:43:59

Plymouth man who thinks lenders

should be made to consider someone's

0:43:590:44:02

rent payment track

record when deciding

0:44:020:44:04

whether to give them

a

0:44:040:44:05

mortgage.

0:44:050:44:06

Jamie Kumar has more.

0:44:060:44:08

If you are looking to rent a two bed

property in Plymouth you will end up

0:44:080:44:12

paying on average of 700

to £800 a month for it.

0:44:120:44:14

All were a number of years

that adds up to a lot of

0:44:140:44:18

money.

0:44:180:44:19

But should the fact

you have been paying

0:44:190:44:21

rent regularly over

a

0:44:210:44:23

period of time be enough proof

you can afford mortgage repayments?

0:44:230:44:26

Well, it seems a lot

of people think it should be.

0:44:260:44:30

147,307, to be precise.

0:44:300:44:34

They signed a petition started

by Plymouth dad Jamie Pogson.

0:44:340:44:40

If the law does change

then a lot of people

0:44:400:44:42

will be able to obtain

mortgages much easier.

0:44:420:44:46

Because I know people that

pay their rent on time all the

0:44:460:44:49

time but they cannot get

accepted for mortgages.

0:44:490:44:56

Liz backs Jamie's idea,

after eight years of paying

0:44:560:44:58

rent, she is about to

buy her first property.

0:44:580:45:00

But she could only afford to do that

because her family has

0:45:000:45:03

helped with the deposit.

0:45:030:45:04

The mortgage payments will be

considerably less than rental.

0:45:040:45:06

It has taken a while

to be approved for

0:45:060:45:09

the mortgage, to evidence I can make

the repayments, even though I have

0:45:090:45:12

been paying rent for

years at a higher rate.

0:45:120:45:14

This week, what started off

as Jamie's angry rant on the

0:45:140:45:18

way to work, was making politicians

and Westminster sit up and listen.

0:45:180:45:22

I would like to think

that someone getting

0:45:220:45:24

out of bed one day

and wanting to change

0:45:240:45:29

the world could produce

a

0:45:290:45:30

situation where thousands of people

who are currently renting at the

0:45:300:45:33

moment might be able to buy a house

because of Jamie Pogson getting out,

0:45:330:45:36

tabling that petition.

0:45:360:45:37

It really showed the

value of this house

0:45:370:45:39

listening to those people

who are signing petitions.

0:45:390:45:41

Why aren't rental payments enough

proof you can afford

0:45:410:45:44

a mortgage?

0:45:440:45:47

UK Finance, the body representing

some lenders, says they

0:45:470:45:51

can take that into account, but that

on its own is not enough evidence

0:45:510:45:57

you can take on a large

debt and pay it back.

0:45:570:46:00

So they have to look at other

factors, like your credit

0:46:000:46:02

score, how steady your job is

and how much you can put down as a

0:46:020:46:06

deposit.

0:46:060:46:07

But there are some schemes

which allow a tenant's rental record

0:46:070:46:13

to contribute to their credit score.

0:46:130:46:22

During the debate, the minister

hinted lenders should look more

0:46:220:46:24

favourably on people

who pay their rent on time.

0:46:240:46:27

It is clear many people

still struggle to make the

0:46:270:46:29

first step on the housing ladder.

0:46:290:46:32

Credit reference agencies being able

to access data related to

0:46:320:46:34

prospective borrowers'

history of paying rent,

0:46:340:46:36

will benefit both

the

0:46:360:46:37

borrower but it will also

benefit the lender.

0:46:370:46:39

Perhaps bulkier, Jimmy wanted,

but the start, maybe, of an

0:46:390:46:42

important conversation.

0:46:420:46:46

That might one day

move lenders in the

0:46:460:46:47

direction he wants.

0:46:480:46:49

Jamie Kumar reporting.

0:46:490:46:50

Ros, should lenders look more

favourably on people who have

0:46:500:46:52

paid their rent on time

and can prove it?

0:46:520:46:57

In a short answer, yes.

0:46:570:46:59

Although I think we must

remember the reason why

0:46:590:47:01

people who are renting are finding

it hard to get mortgagess because

0:47:010:47:04

of a bottleneck in the housing

market and extremely high places,

0:47:040:47:06

especially in the south-west.

0:47:060:47:11

Which has got to do

with a failure to

0:47:110:47:13

build social,

affordable rented homes.

0:47:130:47:14

People who rent, and I have been

in both markets, have actually

0:47:140:47:17

a much harder credit process to go

through in order to even be allowed

0:47:170:47:20

to rent a house.

0:47:200:47:22

And often renting is more

expensive than a mortgage

0:47:220:47:24

anyway.

0:47:240:47:26

Renting is more expensive

and so if people can prove they have

0:47:260:47:33

a record, and I can understand

if you are taking up a bigger

0:47:330:47:38

mortgage but might be over a number

of years,

0:47:380:47:47

but if they can prove they have got

that record, yes, absolutely,

0:47:470:47:50

well done for the petitioner

because it

0:47:500:47:52

is an absolute necessity.

0:47:520:47:53

And it is also very

unfair people who are

0:47:530:47:55

renting are treated

as second-class citizens.

0:47:550:47:56

Not just in terms of getting

mortgages but in terms of

0:47:560:47:59

getting any kind of loan.

0:47:590:48:00

You are always asked

to tick that box,

0:48:000:48:02

"Do you own or do rent?"

0:48:020:48:04

So you do not think it would be

encouraging irresponsible lending,

0:48:040:48:06

to look at that?

0:48:060:48:08

I do not think so because I think

anybody who has been

0:48:080:48:11

in the rental market

for a long time and has

0:48:110:48:13

been a good tenant,

is as

0:48:130:48:15

responsible if not more

so than any mortgage holder.

0:48:150:48:17

Scott, do you think this

is something the Government

0:48:170:48:19

should be pushing for?

0:48:190:48:20

I think it's an excellent idea.

0:48:200:48:21

I think it's an excellent idea.

0:48:210:48:23

There is a scheme at the moment

called Rent Plus, and they have been

0:48:230:48:26

lobbying me quite hard to get

the definition of

0:48:260:48:28

affordable housing change

so people can pay rent...

0:48:280:48:30

So that it's actually affordable.

0:48:300:48:32

And then upgrade to

purchasing the home of

0:48:320:48:34

the back of the rent they pay.

0:48:340:48:35

And when you have got

people putting all

0:48:350:48:37

of their income into private rented

accommodation and are not able to

0:48:370:48:40

build that the deposit when you

could effectively get a mortgage for

0:48:400:48:43

half what they are paying.

0:48:430:48:44

Because deposits are a real problem.

0:48:440:48:46

There was the survey

by Halifax that said

0:48:460:48:48

most people are more

worried about the deposit

0:48:480:48:49

than about getting

the

0:48:490:48:51

mortgage because you cannot get

one without the other.

0:48:510:48:53

You actually have said

about the help to buy scheme,

0:48:530:48:55

the Tory

0:48:550:48:56

party's own, it is like sticking

a sticking plaster on a

0:48:560:48:59

freight train.

0:48:590:49:00

Well said.

0:49:000:49:01

Do you still stand by that?

0:49:010:49:02

I believe we have got

fundamental problems in the

0:49:020:49:04

south-west.

0:49:040:49:05

Many people in Cornwall have

to stretch to 13 or 14 times

0:49:050:49:08

their income to be able

to purchase their first home.

0:49:080:49:11

I think there is much

more we can do.

0:49:110:49:13

Some of the most

fundamental problems around

0:49:130:49:15

housing are the land values.

0:49:150:49:24

I think we need to

think more radically

0:49:240:49:30

about how we deal with some of that.

0:49:300:49:32

Like the Communities

Secretary Sajid Javid,

0:49:320:49:33

because there is

something going on here.

0:49:330:49:38

Sajid Javid wants to build

is several hundred thousand

0:49:380:49:41

new homes and just at the Tory party

conference Theresa May announced £2

0:49:410:49:45

billion for 25,000 new homes.

0:49:450:49:49

There is a real

discrepancy going on there

0:49:490:49:51

within the Government itself.

0:49:510:49:52

I think we need to do more

in the planning system.

0:49:520:49:55

I think the Government

can do so much but I

0:49:550:49:57

think we need to find ways

of creating new garden villages.

0:49:570:50:00

So we built settlements outside

of existing development boundaries.

0:50:000:50:02

But is that a dream?

0:50:020:50:03

No, I don't think it is.

0:50:030:50:05

I think it is genuinely achievable.

0:50:050:50:06

It shouldn't be right someone

has to find 50% of the

0:50:060:50:09

cost of their house in land value.

0:50:090:50:11

We should be able to bring that down

substantially and bring down the

0:50:110:50:14

cost to be affordable.

0:50:140:50:15

Ros, is that achievable?

0:50:150:50:16

I think it is more than just doing

stuff with the planning

0:50:160:50:19

system.

0:50:190:50:20

I think it is about allowing

councils that still have cash left

0:50:200:50:23

to release that money in order

to build council homes.

0:50:230:50:25

That has been mentioned

at the conference.

0:50:250:50:29

Whether it actually

transpires into reality,

0:50:290:50:31

let's hope it is

pushed along quickly.

0:50:310:50:33

I also think the idea

of using the private sector, there

0:50:330:50:36

are institutional investors

like Legal And General

0:50:360:50:39

that have some fantastic

affordable housing schemes

0:50:390:50:43

which they can make pay

which do not actually

0:50:430:50:45

need public investment

in

0:50:450:50:46

them.

0:50:460:50:47

They might need public

and the right thing to get them

0:50:470:50:50

kick-started.

0:50:500:50:51

We have hopefully got one happening

in my own patch which

0:50:510:50:53

will be funded by

the private sector.

0:50:530:50:55

There are imaginative things we can

look at but what I do not

0:50:550:50:58

want to see is governments

of all persuasions,

0:50:580:51:00

because they have done it over

the last 15, 20 years, kick

0:51:000:51:03

this issue into the long grass.

0:51:030:51:04

They have made noises about it

and haven't actually have not done

0:51:040:51:07

anything about it.

0:51:070:51:08

Can I just come in on that?

0:51:080:51:10

So I asked the Chancellor

this week, this

0:51:100:51:12

Government has introduced

a second home stamp

0:51:120:51:13

duty levy which places

an

0:51:130:51:15

additional 3% on stamp duty

for homes that are not for main

0:51:150:51:18

residence.

0:51:180:51:19

Which we have got

a lot of down here.

0:51:190:51:21

Indeed.

0:51:210:51:22

Only 3%.

0:51:220:51:23

We have managed to

secure a £20 million

0:51:230:51:25

for the south-west,

of which 5.11 is going into...

0:51:250:51:27

20 million is such a drop

in the ocean when you are

0:51:270:51:30

looking at the cost of housing.

0:51:300:51:31

It is 1000 new homes

in Cornwall that would not

0:51:310:51:34

have been built before

so

0:51:340:51:35

I am very pleased we have managed

to secure that and that is just one

0:51:350:51:38

year's worth.

0:51:380:51:39

OK.

0:51:390:51:41

The campaign to save

Devonport's amphibious ships

0:51:410:51:42

from the axe has been

ramping up this week.

0:51:420:51:44

A petition against the leaked

proposals gained 10,000

0:51:440:51:46

signatures.

0:51:460:51:47

The Conservative led

Plymouth City Council voted

0:51:470:51:49

unanimously to fight the plans.

0:51:490:51:50

Meanwhile, at Westminster,

the Defence Secretary was asked

0:51:500:51:52

about reports Bulwark and Albion

have already

0:51:520:51:54

been quietly offered

for sale to foreign navies.

0:51:540:51:56

Chloe Axford reports.

0:51:560:52:02

From the social enterprise coffee

shop to the cafe outside the

0:52:020:52:04

dockyard gates.

0:52:040:52:05

People here say the Navy is part

of Plymouth's DNA, and

0:52:050:52:09

losing ships like HMS Albion

and Bulwark, and their Marines,

0:52:090:52:11

would be unthinkable.

0:52:110:52:12

It does not just impact

the dockyard, it impacts the

0:52:120:52:15

residents, businesses around here.

0:52:150:52:16

So I think it would worry a lot

of people if it happened.

0:52:160:52:19

Arguably, much of Devonport

or Plymouth, even,

0:52:190:52:21

would not exist if it

wasn't for the Royal Navy.

0:52:210:52:26

If change is going to happen it is

probably beyond what is in our gift.

0:52:260:52:31

Then my plea would be we manage

that, invest in that and support

0:52:310:52:34

people through that.

0:52:340:52:37

The battle lines are now

being drawn between

0:52:370:52:39

those who want answers

about the ships' future

0:52:390:52:43

and those who dismiss reports

they are going to be scrapped

0:52:430:52:46

as simply speculation

and scaremongering.

0:52:460:52:47

Is it a case of attack

being the best form of

0:52:470:52:49

defence?

0:52:490:52:50

In the Commons, Plymouth MP

Johnny Mercer seem to think so.

0:52:500:52:53

As members of this

house we all have a

0:52:530:52:57

responsibility when it

comes to speculation.

0:52:570:53:02

We can essentially speculate

about anything at all.

0:53:020:53:04

But these are people's lives,

their jobs, and we should

0:53:040:53:07

base our debate around facts and not

a political

0:53:070:53:09

agenda.

0:53:090:53:10

Others on both sides of the house

bombarded defence ministers

0:53:100:53:18

with questions about the future

of Devonport ships.

0:53:180:53:20

Can I ask the Minister

to speed up this review

0:53:200:53:22

because there are lots of people

that are very concerned about their

0:53:220:53:25

jobs and the local economy Albion,

Bulwark and the Royal Marines are to

0:53:250:53:28

be scrapped.

0:53:280:53:29

But each time, the frontbenchers

took evasive action.

0:53:290:53:31

Once again, he seems to be

unnecessarily adding fuel to the

0:53:310:53:34

speculation.

0:53:340:53:35

Indeed perhaps even

scaremongering to his

0:53:350:53:38

own constituents, which I don't

think is particularly valuable.

0:53:380:53:40

At Wednesday's Defence

Select Committee,

0:53:400:53:41

Johnny Mercer was back

on

0:53:410:53:47

the offensive against any possible

cuts, leading to some careful

0:53:470:53:51

manoeuvring by the Defence Secretary

to deflect attention away from

0:53:510:53:54

Albion and Bulwark.

0:53:540:53:55

The threats have intensified.

0:53:550:53:58

We have to spend money dealing

with the threat from cyber as

0:53:580:54:01

well as finding resources

to storm beaches.

0:54:010:54:03

It is for the Chiefs to weigh these

priorities up and give

0:54:030:54:06

me the right military advice

when the decision comes.

0:54:060:54:08

Devonport's community

is a strong one.

0:54:080:54:11

This was local children

at the half term

0:54:110:54:19

apple day.

0:54:190:54:21

This week, Plymouth's Conservative

and Labour councillors

0:54:210:54:23

voted unanimously to defend

Devonport and the rest of the city

0:54:230:54:26

against any cuts.

0:54:260:54:27

Calling it a fight Plymouth

cannot afford to lose.

0:54:270:54:29

Navy contracts account for 8.5%

of Plymouth's employment and 12% of

0:54:290:54:32

economic output.

0:54:320:54:33

You do not mess with Plymouth.

0:54:330:54:36

You don't mess with the ships,

you don't mess

0:54:380:54:40

with the Navy.

0:54:400:54:41

We are here for the country and now

it is time for you to be

0:54:410:54:44

here for us.

0:54:440:54:45

The outcome of the Government's

national security

0:54:450:54:47

capability review is

expected by Christmas.

0:54:470:54:50

But there are already reports

the Chilean and Brazilian

0:54:500:54:52

navies are considering purchasing

some of the UK's amphibious ships

0:54:520:54:57

and frigates, leaving the outlook

for the British Navy and those who

0:54:570:55:00

rely on it here in Plymouth,

distinctly unsettled.

0:55:000:55:03

Chloe Axford reporting.

0:55:030:55:07

Scott, how difficult is it to get

the right position on

0:55:070:55:11

this?

0:55:110:55:16

We've heard Johnny Mercer on Monday

saying in the Commons this

0:55:160:55:19

was just speculation and by

Wednesday he is in a committee room

0:55:190:55:22

firing very hard questions

at the Defence Secretary.

0:55:220:55:24

What position should

we take in what position do

0:55:240:55:26

you take on this?

0:55:260:55:27

Is it just speculation?

0:55:270:55:28

Can we still say that?

0:55:280:55:29

I am pleased Johnny is firing

questions at the Defence Secretary

0:55:290:55:32

on this.

0:55:320:55:33

My understanding is it is

speculation at this point.

0:55:330:55:35

Why don't they just dismiss it then?

0:55:350:55:37

If it is not true?

0:55:370:55:38

This is the second part

of a Strategic Defence Review.

0:55:380:55:40

We have had one review

and this

0:55:400:55:42

is the second.

0:55:420:55:43

I don't know why we're having

a second one so quickly.

0:55:430:55:46

I think the military capability

and threat we face has not changed

0:55:460:55:49

significantly from the last review.

0:55:490:55:50

Too much money on the aircraft

carrier in Portsmouth?

0:55:500:55:55

I would argue the threat

we face is changing and

0:55:550:55:58

as an island nation we need to have

amphibious vehicles.

0:55:580:56:01

I would also make the point

if the issue is about

0:56:010:56:07

financing, I would suggest the

Defence Secretary should speak to

0:56:070:56:09

the Chancellor and make the case

we should be spending some of aid

0:56:090:56:14

budget, currently set 0.7%,

on defence, security and social

0:56:140:56:16

care, which I think

should be our priorities.

0:56:160:56:18

Ros, is that something

you would agree with?

0:56:180:56:23

I'm not sure I agree

with the aid budget, but I

0:56:230:56:26

think what we need to look at is

what moving the Navy did to Weymouth

0:56:260:56:30

which is in my own backyard, and I

think, looking at the employment

0:56:300:56:33

stats and economic contribution that

Devonport makes to Plymouth, I think

0:56:330:56:36

it would be really

scary for the people

0:56:360:56:37

of Plymouth if there

was to

0:56:370:56:39

be a mass disinvestment.

0:56:390:56:40

Reading between the

lines, what is your

0:56:400:56:42

judgment of it?

0:56:420:56:43

Do you think we can

dismiss it as speculation?

0:56:430:56:46

No, I don't agree with that at all.

0:56:460:56:52

I think that there needs to be

transparency about this and where

0:56:520:56:55

there is not transparency it is

because something is going on in the

0:56:550:57:04

background and there will be some

perhaps deals or discussions taking

0:57:040:57:07

place about moving funding

from one place to another.

0:57:070:57:10

You say that, Defence Weekly,

a highly respected

0:57:100:57:12

magazine in the industry suggested

there was talk in Chile and

0:57:120:57:15

Argentina are possibly

buying these ships.

0:57:150:57:16

What is your response to that?

0:57:160:57:20

I would say that they must be good

ships and we should keep a

0:57:200:57:24

hold of them.

0:57:240:57:25

It is important we have

all capabilities open to

0:57:250:57:27

us.

0:57:270:57:28

As we enter this world

that is changing drastically.

0:57:280:57:30

I would pick the case

we are an island

0:57:300:57:32

nation and we need to keep our

amphibious vehicles.

0:57:320:57:34

I should qualify myself

there, it is Chile

0:57:340:57:36

and Brazil that perhaps are looking

at buying our ships.

0:57:360:57:39

You made two points,

one was the threat,

0:57:390:57:41

you said, is changing.

0:57:410:57:42

But, two, we are an island

nation so we need to keep

0:57:420:57:44

our amphibious ships.

0:57:450:57:46

Again, those are two

opposing points of view.

0:57:460:57:49

If the threat is changing

and we are going to cyber warfare

0:57:490:57:52

you probably wouldn't need to keep

landing ships

0:57:520:57:54

and we would not be able

to need to land on beaches.

0:57:540:57:57

And in which case it

would not be very good use of

0:57:570:58:00

taxpayer money.

0:58:000:58:01

We already have a significant

amount of money that

0:58:010:58:03

goes into our cyber security threats

and the challenges we face with

0:58:030:58:06

that.

0:58:060:58:07

The way the army and Navy and air.

0:58:070:58:17

It is changing.

0:58:210:58:25

We should keep

the options open to us

0:58:250:58:26

to deal with threats we face.

0:58:260:58:28

That might well change

in the future but

0:58:280:58:30

that is my view.

0:58:300:58:31

I think the amount we spend

on defence, 2% of GDP,

0:58:310:58:33

could be increased, it could be

increased post-Brexit but could

0:58:330:58:36

also be increased by looking

again at the aid budget.

0:58:360:58:38

This has been closely

followed on Twitter and we

0:58:380:58:40

have had quite a lot of tweets.

0:58:400:58:42

David Rogers tweeted

to say, "Did anybody

0:58:420:58:44

question the cost impact

of

0:58:440:58:45

Trident on conventional forces?"

0:58:450:58:46

So, Ros, if we scrapped the Trident

programme maybe we could save our

0:58:460:58:49

amphibious landing ships.

0:58:490:58:50

Absolutely.

0:58:500:58:51

And I think also we had to say

although the nature of

0:58:510:58:54

warfare is changing, we are not

getting traditional big theatre

0:58:540:58:57

wars, what we are getting

is conflict where we have to enter

0:58:570:59:02

quite quickly and have the resource

at our fingertips in order to go in

0:59:020:59:06

and either rescue or

support or intervene

0:59:060:59:09

in a conflict management role.

0:59:090:59:11

So we still need those resources

to perform that role and

0:59:110:59:13

surely...

0:59:130:59:15

Briefly, Scott, should

we scrap Trident?

0:59:150:59:18

I firmly believe we need

a nuclear deterrent and we

0:59:180:59:20

should maintain it.

0:59:200:59:23

You want to have your cake

and eat it, then, Scott.

0:59:230:59:26

What do you mean?

0:59:260:59:27

Well, if you're talking

about taking money out of

0:59:270:59:29

the aid budget and supporting these

kind of conventional pieces of

0:59:290:59:35

equipment and supporting Trident,

what if there is not enough money to

0:59:350:59:38

go around?

0:59:380:59:39

Well, the aid budget is pretty

substantial, 0.7% of GDP,

0:59:390:59:42

and I think we should utilise that

to protect people in this country.

0:59:420:59:45

By preventing conflicts abroad that

prevent us from leading to

0:59:450:59:53

--needig to intervene.

0:59:530:59:54

And I also believe some of that aid

budget could potentially

0:59:540:59:56

be used for social care,

one of the most fundamental

0:59:560:59:59

and pressing issues we face.

0:59:591:00:02

I have to stop you there

because it is time for our regular

1:00:021:00:05

round-up of the political

week in just 60 seconds.

1:00:051:00:08

New figures showed 12,000 people

in the region are on

1:00:081:00:14

waiting lists for housing

because their current properties

1:00:141:00:16

are not fit to live in.

1:00:161:00:19

There is no wonder why

this place gets mouldy.

1:00:191:00:21

There is so much water in the air.

1:00:211:00:29

MPs lined up to demand speedier

action on rail improvements

1:00:291:00:31

for the region.

1:00:311:00:32

No more excuses was the message.

1:00:321:00:33

You have to look at the wind

forecast and weather forecast

1:00:331:00:36

and the shipping forecast to see

if they are actually going to be

1:00:361:00:39

running.

1:00:391:00:44

The MP suspended for using

the N-word makes an appearance on

1:00:441:00:46

the Tory benches and refers to

Conservative MPs as her honourable

1:00:461:00:49

friends.

1:00:491:00:51

When I have spoken to my honourable

friend, the secretary of

1:00:511:00:53

state on this issue...

1:00:531:00:56

Faster than the speed

of sound, the Bloodhound's

1:00:561:00:58

test run in Cornwall

was brought to the attention

1:00:581:01:00

of the Prime Minister.

1:01:001:01:01

I am very happy to join him in

wishing the Bloodhound team well and

1:01:011:01:05

indeed I have met some

of them in the past.

1:01:051:01:11

Scott, Anne Marie Morris, the

Conservative MP for Newton Abbot,

1:01:161:01:24

does that mean she has been

given the whip back?

1:01:241:01:26

Not as far as I am aware.

1:01:261:01:28

That is obviously a decision

above my pay grade.

1:01:281:01:30

But she was in the rail

debate and it was a very

1:01:301:01:33

interesting debate.

1:01:331:01:34

Luke Pollard made a very

good point about getting

1:01:341:01:36

Wi-Fi on trains and I think people

are fascinated with electrification

1:01:361:01:39

but from my point of view...

1:01:391:01:41

And that has moved

us neatly away from

1:01:411:01:42

Anne-Marie Morris.

1:01:421:01:45

I will bring in Ros.

1:01:451:01:46

Should she be giving the work back?

1:01:461:01:48

She used the N-word.

1:01:481:01:49

Is this something we should

forget and move on?

1:01:491:01:51

She used a colloquial

phrase inadvertently.

1:01:511:01:52

I think that is very

different from the kind of

1:01:521:01:56

disciplinary that is being exercised

in respect of Sheffield Hallam at

1:01:561:02:00

the moment, which I think is an

issue where discipline really needs

1:02:001:02:02

to be exercised.

1:02:021:02:04

I would not expect the whip to be

withdrawn from her for

1:02:041:02:07

her much longer.

1:02:071:02:08

That is the Sunday Politics

in the south-west.

1:02:081:02:10

Thanks to my guests,

Scott Mann and Ros Keyes

1:02:101:02:15

With that, it's back to Sarah.

1:02:161:02:25

Now, the much anticipated

EU Withdrawal Bill,

1:02:251:02:28

which will transfer EU law into UK

law in preparation for Brexit,

1:02:281:02:31

is expected to be debated

by MPs later next month.

1:02:311:02:36

Critics have called it a "power

grab" as it introduces so-called

1:02:361:02:39

Henry VIII powers for Whitehall

to amend some laws without

1:02:391:02:41

consulting parliament,

and it faces fierce resistance

1:02:411:02:45

from opposition parties

as well as many on the government's

1:02:451:02:49

own backbenches, with 300 amendments

and 54 new clauses tabled on it.

1:02:491:02:54

We're joined now by the Conservative

MP Anna Soubry who has been a strong

1:02:541:02:57

critic of the legislation.

1:02:571:03:01

Thank you very much for joining us.

Before we talk about the withdrawal

1:03:011:03:06

bill, I would like to bring up with

you that the Prime Minister has just

1:03:061:03:11

sent a letter to the Commons Speaker

John Bercow asking for an

1:03:111:03:15

independent body to be established

to investigate claims of sexual

1:03:151:03:19

harassment in Parliament. What are

your thoughts on that?

A very good

1:03:191:03:23

idea, sounds like a great deal of

common sense. I had already this

1:03:231:03:28

morning sent a request to the

speaker asking for an urgent

1:03:281:03:31

statement from the Leader of the

House as to what could now be done

1:03:311:03:35

to make sure that any complaints

actually against anybody working in

1:03:351:03:41

Parliament, to extend the

protections that workers throughout

1:03:411:03:44

the rest of businesses and in other

workplaces have, they should now be

1:03:441:03:49

extended into Parliament and asking

for an urgent statement from the

1:03:491:03:52

leader. Clearly the PM is well onto

this and it is a good idea. We have

1:03:521:03:57

to make sure everybody who works in

Parliament enjoys exactly the same

1:03:571:04:01

protections as other workers, so I

welcome this.

This should maybe have

1:04:011:04:06

happened a long time ago. We hear

stories of harassment that has been

1:04:061:04:11

going on for decades, but until now

it has been difficult to work out

1:04:111:04:14

who you could complain to about it.

It is my understanding that my Chief

1:04:141:04:20

Whip and the previous deputy Chief

Whip, and Milton, shared that view

1:04:201:04:24

and have shared that view for some

time but found it difficult to get

1:04:241:04:29

all the agreement necessary. Anyway,

we are where we are and we are

1:04:291:04:33

making that progress, but

1:04:331:04:45

my Chief Whip and the previous

deputy Chief Whip wanted this done

1:04:461:04:48

some time ago.

That is an

interesting point. Let's move on to

1:04:481:04:51

the much anticipated EU withdrawal

bill which will finally be debated.

1:04:511:04:53

You have put your name to an

amendment which is calling for a

1:04:531:04:55

vote on the final agreement in

essence, do you really believe that

1:04:551:04:58

that will be a meaningful both

offered to the Commons?

Yes, if you

1:04:581:05:02

look at the terms of the amendment,

it would deliver exactly that. It

1:05:021:05:07

would give members of Parliament the

opportunity to debated and voted on

1:05:071:05:12

it. It would be an effective piece

of legislation and would go through

1:05:121:05:16

both houses and should be done. One

of the problems with this process is

1:05:161:05:21

that Parliament has been excluded

from the sort of debate and

1:05:211:05:25

decisions that would have enabled

the government to move forward in

1:05:251:05:30

progress and form a consensus so we

get the very best Brexit deal.

We

1:05:301:05:40

have been excluded, that has been

wrong in my view, but by the end we

1:05:401:05:43

should not be excluded. The

government have made it clear that

1:05:431:05:46

whilst there may well be a boat if

you win on this amendment, it will

1:05:461:05:49

be a take it or leave it vote. This

is a deal you should accept, or

1:05:491:05:54

there will be no deal.

If you look

at the amendment we put forward

1:05:541:06:00

there will be other alternatives.

This is all hypothetical because we

1:06:001:06:04

want a good deal and it is difficult

to see that the government would not

1:06:041:06:07

bring a good deal to the House in

any event. But this is hypothetical,

1:06:071:06:13

it would mean Parliament would say

to government, go back and seek an

1:06:131:06:18

extension as we know it is there in

Article 50. It is perfectly possible

1:06:181:06:24

with the agreement of the other

members of the EU to seek an

1:06:241:06:28

extension so we continue the

negotiations and we get a deal that

1:06:281:06:32

is good for our country. It keeps

all options open and that is the

1:06:321:06:36

most important thing.

How many

Conservative MPs really would take

1:06:361:06:41

that option in those circumstances?

It is only if you get enough votes

1:06:411:06:46

that you would be able to ask the

government to go back and

1:06:461:06:49

re-negotiate.

1:06:491:07:00

Have you for that?

For give me, but

you are jumping way down the line. I

1:07:031:07:06

am talking about an amendment that

keeps the options open. I am not

1:07:061:07:08

speculating as to what would happen,

I am not going there, it is far too

1:07:081:07:12

speculative. Let's get this bill in

good shape. The principle of this

1:07:121:07:15

bill is right and we need to put

into British domestic law existing

1:07:151:07:21

EU laws and regulations into our

substantive law. We all agree that

1:07:211:07:26

must happen. It is the means by

which we do it that causes problems

1:07:261:07:31

and we have this argument and debate

about what we call the endgame.

I am

1:07:311:07:37

sure we will talk about this many

more times before we get to that

1:07:371:07:41

vote. I will turn to our panel of

political experts. Listening to the

1:07:411:07:46

tone of what the remainders are

trying to achieve with the EU

1:07:461:07:52

withdrawal bill, will be achieved?

You can hear that tussled there,

1:07:521:07:57

they want the maximum space and room

for Parliament to have a say. But

1:07:571:08:02

they have to be careful. The reason

is that clock is ticking and if you

1:08:021:08:08

have a situation which may seem to

be more interested in finding

1:08:081:08:14

different things to object to and

saying no to, it is not getting a

1:08:141:08:18

good deal and it does not look good

for the remainders in this argument

1:08:181:08:22

and they will have to come through

with their proposals. I do not mind

1:08:221:08:27

Parliament saying it should have a

big say, but what do you do if

1:08:271:08:31

Parliament says this is not good

enough? The government must simply

1:08:311:08:37

say, I am sorry we have run out of

time. The 27 will say they cannot be

1:08:371:08:42

bothered to have another round

either. They have to be strong, but

1:08:421:08:47

realistic about what their role in

this is.

Do you think the people

1:08:471:08:51

putting this amendment who say they

want a binding vote in parliament

1:08:511:08:56

are doing it because they think

Parliament should have a say or

1:08:561:08:59

because they want to obstruct it?

They do not think people should have

1:08:591:09:04

a say in the first place, they think

people got it wrong, so they need

1:09:041:09:09

more clever people than the voters

to have final say.

Or they believed

1:09:091:09:16

taking back control means Parliament

should have the final say.

1:09:161:09:19

Parliament said they would like to

give that decision back to the

1:09:191:09:22

people. This is the issue. It seems

to me that people like Anna Soubry

1:09:221:09:28

are trying to delay of the

transition period a bit longer.

1:09:281:09:32

These negotiations will take as long

as they have got. The EU will take

1:09:321:09:37

it to the wire and if we do not get

a decent deal, and one of the

1:09:371:09:45

reasons is the level of incompetence

on this government's part I have to

1:09:451:09:48

say and the other one will be the

people who want to remain

1:09:481:09:53

undermining them. They undermined

the government at every single stage

1:09:531:09:59

and they undermine Britain's

interests.

It is the timing of all

1:09:591:10:03

of this that is crucial and whether

the government can get a deal in

1:10:031:10:06

time.

There will be a meaningful

vote, whether it is an shined in

1:10:061:10:13

legislation or not, there cannot be

an historic development as big as

1:10:131:10:18

this without Parliament having a

meaningful vote. I meaningful,

1:10:181:10:23

having the power to either stop it

or endorse it. You cannot have a

1:10:231:10:27

government doing something like this

with no vote in the House of

1:10:271:10:30

commons. When you say it will go to

the last minute I completely agree,

1:10:301:10:37

but last-minute in reality means

next summer. It has got to get

1:10:371:10:42

through the European Parliament and

the Westminster Parliament and quite

1:10:421:10:45

a few others as well.

The trouble

with invoking Parliament is if it is

1:10:451:10:52

driven solely by remain, I would

love to say what people in the

1:10:521:10:57

league side think. I disagree with

Julia, I do not think you could say

1:10:571:11:04

people had their say and the terms

with which we leave are left open

1:11:041:11:09

and only the government should have

a say in it, Parliament clearly

1:11:091:11:12

should have a say in it.

Do we want

a good deal or not?

It does not mean

1:11:121:11:21

anything if you do not do it by next

summer I suggest.

Does that leave

1:11:211:11:26

Parliament any room for changing the

deal or is it simply take it or

1:11:261:11:30

leave it?

It will have to have that

rule because it cannot simply be

1:11:301:11:35

another of these binary votes were

you accept the deal or no Deal.

1:11:351:11:39

There has to be some space.

How can

a few MPs in the House of Commons

1:11:391:11:45

change a deal that has been agreed

by the member states?

Because of the

1:11:451:11:50

sequence, a huge if by the way, if

they vote down the deal that the

1:11:501:11:56

government has negotiated, the

government will have to re-negotiate

1:11:561:11:59

or there will have to be an

election. This will be a moment of

1:11:591:12:03

huge crisis, our government not

getting through its much topped

1:12:031:12:06

about...

It is a mini Catalonia.

I

think it would be as big as

1:12:061:12:15

Catalonia, but with the implication

that there would have to be a

1:12:151:12:18

practical change in the deal because

if Parliament has not supported

1:12:181:12:21

it...

It is a remain fantasy that

this deal can be put off and off

1:12:211:12:27

until they get something that is as

close to remaining as they can

1:12:271:12:32

possibly get. I am very much for

trying to get the best and avoiding

1:12:321:12:37

the worst, but there is an unreality

to that position if you keep trying

1:12:371:12:43

to do it again and again, at some

point people will want clarity.

I

1:12:431:12:49

labour putting forward a realistic

proposition?

I thought Hilary Benn

1:12:491:12:55

was very realistic this morning, I

wish he was more in the driving seat

1:12:551:12:59

of Labour policy. He made clear

where he disagreed and he made clear

1:12:591:13:04

where he thought the negotiations

had gone off track or were bogged

1:13:041:13:07

down. I worry a bit about the Labour

position being incoherent, but that

1:13:071:13:16

is kept that way by the present

leadership because as far as they

1:13:161:13:19

are concerned the government is

suffering enough, why should they

1:13:191:13:23

have a position? Hilary Benn said we

needed to have clarity about the

1:13:231:13:29

timetable. It is like reading an

insurance contract and finding the

1:13:291:13:32

bit where you might get away with

it. That is not a policy.

1:13:321:13:35

That is not a policy.

1:13:351:13:38

That's all for today.

1:13:381:13:39

Join me again next Sunday

at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:391:13:42

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:421:13:46

Sarah Smith and Lucie Fisher with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include chair of the Exiting the EU Select Committee Hilary Benn and former transport minister Theresa Villiers. Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Anne McElvoy are the political panel.


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