Browse content similar to 05/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, everyone,
and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:38 | |
I'm Sarah Smith. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:40 | |
And this is your guide to everything
that's happening in the world | 0:00:40 | 0:00:43 | |
of politics this Sunday morning. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:44 | |
On today's show: | 0:00:44 | 0:00:48 | |
Theresa May's right-hand man
Damian Green has denied claims that | 0:00:48 | 0:00:50 | |
police found pornography
on a computer in his office in 2008. | 0:00:50 | 0:00:57 | |
He says the allegations by a former
police chief are "political smears." | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
With claims of sexual harassment
at Westminster growing by the day, | 0:01:00 | 0:01:02 | |
can either Theresa May
or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
to grips with a scandal
threatening to engulf | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
the entire political class? | 0:01:07 | 0:01:11 | |
We'll ask a minister and senior
member of the Shadow Cabinet. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:17 | |
And some on the left of politics
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:17 | 0:01:27 | |
In
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:27 | 0:01:27 | |
In the
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:27 | 0:01:27 | |
In the south-west,
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:27 | 0:01:27 | |
In the south-west, the
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:27 | 0:01:28 | |
In the south-west, the more
have been gathering to mark 100 | 0:01:28 | 0:01:28 | |
In the south-west, the more
expensive the area, the more homes | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
So there's plenty of
explosive political news | 0:01:44 | 0:01:46 | |
to get you in the mood
for bonfire night - | 0:01:46 | 0:01:48 | |
and with me as usual,
three journalists who know quite | 0:01:48 | 0:01:50 | |
a bit about parliamentary plots -
if rather less about | 0:01:50 | 0:01:53 | |
gunpowder and treason. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:54 | |
It's Tom Newton Dunn,
Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
So what are the big political
stories making the news this Sunday? | 0:01:56 | 0:02:00 | |
Well, the papers are brimming
with further allegations against MPs | 0:02:00 | 0:02:08 | |
in the sexual harassment scandal,
which according to one newspaper has | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
left Westminster frozen in fear. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:12 | |
First Secretary of State Damian
Green, already under | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
investigation over allegations -
which he strongly denies - | 0:02:14 | 0:02:16 | |
of propositioning a female activist,
is the subject of new claims that | 0:02:16 | 0:02:19 | |
police discovered pornography
on a computer in his Westminster | 0:02:19 | 0:02:21 | |
office in 2008. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:22 | |
Mr Green denies the allegation,
made by former senior | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
police officer Bob Quick,
saying it is "completely untrue," | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
and adding that he is the victim
of disreputable "political smears." | 0:02:27 | 0:02:35 | |
Michael Fallon, who resigned
as Defence Secretary this week | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
over his past behaviour,
is also subject to fresh claims | 0:02:37 | 0:02:39 | |
he lunged at a female journalist
in 2003 after a lunch. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:45 | |
Labour is facing questions
over its handling of sexual | 0:02:45 | 0:02:47 | |
misconduct allegations. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:54 | |
This morning Shadow Cabinet minister
Dawn Butler refused to be drawn | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew
about alleged misconduct by MP | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted
to the Shadow Cabinet. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:07 | |
And there is a reminder that normal
political life goes on, | 0:03:07 | 0:03:10 | |
with reports that the Cabinet has
agreed to put housing at the heart | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:14 | |
Well, let's hear from
Home Secretary Amber Rudd now - | 0:03:14 | 0:03:16 | |
she was on the Andrew Marr Show
earlier talking about the claims | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
against her Cabinet colleague Damian
Green. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:22 | |
Absolutely not. I think it is
something that will take place in | 0:03:22 | 0:03:28 | |
terms of clearing out Westminster of
that sort of behaviour, and I think | 0:03:28 | 0:03:33 | |
that Westminster afterwards,
including the Government, will be | 0:03:33 | 0:03:35 | |
better for it. When we are confident
that men and women can work any | 0:03:35 | 0:03:44 | |
respectful environment and people on
the receiving end of abuse of power | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
can come forward. That will be a
positive thing. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:53 | |
Let's see what our panel make of
this fairly explosive week. Good | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
morning to all of you. Starting with
you, Steve. Not a party political | 0:03:57 | 0:04:04 | |
issue but the Tories are in
Government. How much harder for them | 0:04:04 | 0:04:08 | |
is it an Labour? Always harder when
you are in Government because it | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
makes governing almost impossible.
And the wider context is a Prime | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
Minister who lost her overall
majority a few months ago and | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
actually that is the context of
everything. When you are having to | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
deal with the scandal of such
unpredictability, where the | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
terms are so imprecise, it is a
"lunge", a resignation issue, to use | 0:04:25 | 0:04:37 | |
that term, and nightmare. I don't
think it is fatal. Scandals rarely | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
bring down governments, but it makes
governing for Theresa May a form of | 0:04:40 | 0:04:46 | |
political health. Isabel Oakeshott,
Damian Green has denied all | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
allegations made against him, but
there are more this morning. He is | 0:04:49 | 0:04:53 | |
being investigated by the Cabinet
Office at the moment. If Theresa May | 0:04:53 | 0:04:58 | |
were to effectively lose her Deputy
Prime Minister, has serious without | 0:04:58 | 0:05:02 | |
the? I think very serious indeed. I
think it is very significant and | 0:05:02 | 0:05:07 | |
strange he was not defended in the
Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
clip we saw today, she didn't say I
am certain he will survive, and I am | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
beginning to feel that Damian may
not survive this. We don't know | 0:05:14 | 0:05:19 | |
whether it is the last of the
allegations that may come out in | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
relation to him. It seems to me that
the allegations were previously of a | 0:05:22 | 0:05:26 | |
rather minor order, but this seems
to have escalated. And I think one | 0:05:26 | 0:05:32 | |
of the big problems for Theresa May,
and there are the many at the | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
moment, for months we have been
saying that this Government has no | 0:05:35 | 0:05:41 | |
bandwidth to do anything except
Brexit and right now she can't even | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
do Brexit. What is the point of it
all? It is important to make clear | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
not only that Damian Green denies
all of these allegations, but the | 0:05:48 | 0:05:52 | |
computer mentioned was in a shared
office so there is no reason it | 0:05:52 | 0:05:58 | |
would definitely be his
# No guarantee it would definitely | 0:05:58 | 0:06:02 | |
be his. But we have had two MPs on
television this morning, Anna | 0:06:02 | 0:06:14 | |
Soubry, saying he should stand down.
There is an awful lot going on here. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:19 | |
It is not just a pretty awful sexual
harassment scandal. There are also | 0:06:19 | 0:06:25 | |
without a doubt MPs, police
officers, going about settling | 0:06:25 | 0:06:29 | |
scores. For me I have to say for our
pretty discredited police officer | 0:06:29 | 0:06:34 | |
Bob Quick, to make accusations
against serving Cabinet minister, to | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
suggest he should go for extreme
pornography on computers he may or | 0:06:38 | 0:06:45 | |
may not have known, it may be
extremely distasteful but it is | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
alarming for democracy to have
ex-police officers like this coming | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
in and trying to play with
democracy. Some politicians are also | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
meeting claims, some for the right
reasons to get the allegations out | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
there and so on but others for their
own agendas and all of this puts the | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
Prime Minister in an unbelievably
hard situation. I agree with Steve | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
and Isabel, she desperately needs
two show leadership in all this, but | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
every way she could turn there are
incredible downfalls, people blaming | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
her for trying to get to the bottom
of all this. It is very people who | 0:07:12 | 0:07:17 | |
she is relying on for her
leadership, the very Tory MPs the | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
support she can't lose. It is not
just the Tory party and of course | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
Jeremy Corbyn will be making a
speech later today where this will | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
inevitably and there are accusations
about how the senior leadership in | 0:07:28 | 0:07:31 | |
the Labour Party have handled this.
What about that situation? Yes, but | 0:07:31 | 0:07:37 | |
the Government is much harder
because you are meant to be doing | 0:07:37 | 0:07:39 | |
10,000 other things at the same
time. This is about a deregulated | 0:07:39 | 0:07:43 | |
work environment. For all those who
say, I hate the way Britain is too | 0:07:43 | 0:07:47 | |
regulated, this is what happens in a
deregulated work environment. The | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
House of Commons has no HR or
whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs | 0:07:50 | 0:08:00 | |
actually don't have much power but
they do have power over who the | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
point and how to treat them. I think
this is the way forward in terms of | 0:08:02 | 0:08:07 | |
the practical outcome, but it is
across the political spectrum. But | 0:08:07 | 0:08:09 | |
it is unclear what it will be. Can
the party sort this out? I'm not | 0:08:09 | 0:08:15 | |
sure I entirely agree, Steve, you
cannot regulate all human | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
interaction and a lot of these
stories have been about interactions | 0:08:18 | 0:08:23 | |
between politicians and journalists
alike, who have gone out for lunch, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:27 | |
chosen to drink, presumably to
create an informal atmosphere, and | 0:08:27 | 0:08:33 | |
at what point is a step towards
somebody to say goodbye, a peck on | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You
can't regulate that sort of thing. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:42 | |
Throughout the programme will come
back to some of these things and how | 0:08:42 | 0:08:47 | |
they might be regulated. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:49 | |
Now, the Home Secretary has
also today been talking | 0:08:49 | 0:08:51 | |
about what she calls the "moral
duty" of social media companies | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
to stop child sexual exploitation,
ahead of a meeting with her US | 0:08:54 | 0:08:56 | |
counterparts this week. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:58 | |
We're joined now by the Home Office
minister Sarah Newton - | 0:08:58 | 0:09:00 | |
she's in our Truro studio. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:02 | |
Thanks very much for coming in to
speak the first night. I want to | 0:09:02 | 0:09:05 | |
talk to you about the Government's
efforts to tackle child pornography, | 0:09:05 | 0:09:09 | |
but let's pick up on some of the
sexual harassment issues at | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
Westminster first. Two of your
parliamentary colleagues this | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
morning saying they think the first
Secretary of State Damian Green | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
should step down whilst being
investigated. Do you agree? Look, he | 0:09:19 | 0:09:25 | |
has vigorously denied these
accusations, and the Cabinet Office | 0:09:25 | 0:09:31 | |
is investigating these accusations,
so we do have processes for when | 0:09:31 | 0:09:36 | |
ministers have these accusations
made against them so they are | 0:09:36 | 0:09:39 | |
properly investigated. And that is
what is going on at the moment. Is | 0:09:39 | 0:09:43 | |
that process people can be confident
in? He is effectively being | 0:09:43 | 0:09:48 | |
investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one
of his colleagues. This is a tried | 0:09:48 | 0:09:54 | |
and tested process that has stood
the test of time, and it is | 0:09:54 | 0:09:59 | |
important... Has it? Surely what we
are learning is it has not stood the | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
test of time and that in fact
allegations like this have been | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
swept under the carpet and ignored
for years and years in Westminster, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:09 | |
exactly what we are learning right
now. I think you are conflating two | 0:10:09 | 0:10:14 | |
things they are, and what we really
do need to do is look at the whole | 0:10:14 | 0:10:17 | |
range of allegations people have
been making, and make sure | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
Parliament is a safe place for
people to work, a respectful | 0:10:21 | 0:10:25 | |
environment for people who have been
subjected to harassment or bullying | 0:10:25 | 0:10:31 | |
or inappropriate behaviour, so that
they feel confident to come forward | 0:10:31 | 0:10:33 | |
knowing they will be listened to,
that there will be an open and | 0:10:33 | 0:10:38 | |
transparent and fair to everyone
concerned process for getting to the | 0:10:38 | 0:10:40 | |
bottom of it, and that is exactly
what the Prime Minister and the | 0:10:40 | 0:10:45 | |
Leader of the Cows have set out,
Prime Minister's meeting with all | 0:10:45 | 0:10:50 | |
the leaders of the parties tomorrow
to set out a proper process so we | 0:10:50 | 0:10:55 | |
can modernise the work environment
at Westminster -- leader of the | 0:10:55 | 0:11:03 | |
House have set out. You think Damian
Green should remain in the Cabinet | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
well being investigated? That will
be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he | 0:11:07 | 0:11:13 | |
thinks the misdemeanours have a
basis, that he should stand aside, | 0:11:13 | 0:11:17 | |
that will be the recommendation. I
will not second the inquiry on what | 0:11:17 | 0:11:22 | |
Sir Jeremy Heywood finds. You were
in the Whips' Office yourself for a | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
year. And much has been said this
week of the whips being in receipt | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
of a lot of information about bad
behaviour, and instead of reporting | 0:11:30 | 0:11:34 | |
it to authorities they were using it
as ammunition. Was that your | 0:11:34 | 0:11:38 | |
experience? Absolutely not. I was at
the Whips' Office up to 2015 and, | 0:11:38 | 0:11:44 | |
yes, I heard about the rumours of a
black spreadsheet, and I can | 0:11:44 | 0:11:48 | |
certainly say I never saw such a
thing. How I went about my business | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
as a whip is really twofold. It is
quite a technical job in many ways, | 0:11:52 | 0:11:56 | |
about of the Government through the
House, working with the House | 0:11:56 | 0:12:03 | |
authorities, the opposition. Also...
Did you ever hear rumours of these | 0:12:03 | 0:12:06 | |
people's bad behaviour? Sorry? Did
you ever hear rumours of MPs | 0:12:06 | 0:12:14 | |
misbehaving, sexual harassment,
allegations are that? If anybody had | 0:12:14 | 0:12:17 | |
brought a complaint to me about the
behaviour of one of the MPs who were | 0:12:17 | 0:12:22 | |
in my flock, I would take that
really seriously, but bull-mac, that | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
didn't happen. You said nobody
brought you a complaint. Did you | 0:12:26 | 0:12:30 | |
hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't
happen. About the members of my | 0:12:30 | 0:12:36 | |
flock? Absolutely not. Is that the
MPs you were specifically in charge | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
of? I did not have that experience
at all. Let's move on and talk about | 0:12:40 | 0:12:46 | |
the Home Secretary's trip to
Washington this week, where she will | 0:12:46 | 0:12:50 | |
urge tech companies to go further
and faster on online child abuse. We | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
have heard a lot from this
Government urging these companies to | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
do something. One specific ideas of
what they could do, do you have a | 0:12:57 | 0:13:01 | |
clear idea of what you are asking
from tech companies? Absolutely | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
right. As you know, this horrendous
crime of child sexual exploitation | 0:13:04 | 0:13:10 | |
and grooming is constantly evolving
as the opportunities for the | 0:13:10 | 0:13:15 | |
perpetrators arise. They are now
using live streaming, different | 0:13:15 | 0:13:20 | |
sorts of platforms, which are
largely controlled by the big | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
companies in America. What we really
want them to do is to step up and | 0:13:24 | 0:13:28 | |
use their huge expertise, used the
huge money they have got, to help | 0:13:28 | 0:13:33 | |
find technological solutions to read
their sites and rid the opportunity | 0:13:33 | 0:13:38 | |
of these paedophiles to be able to
groom young people. We need the | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
politicians in America to exert
pressure, as well as other | 0:13:41 | 0:13:48 | |
companies, because these are global
problems. We are not going to solve | 0:13:48 | 0:13:51 | |
this problem in the UK alone. We
have made a lot of progress, working | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
with Facebook and other companies as
well, but we really need to keep one | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
step ahead of the technology, one
step ahead of the perpetrators, who | 0:13:59 | 0:14:04 | |
are using these opportunities to
commit horrendous crimes. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:10 | |
It was back in 2014 Theresa May for
the Internet companies to do more in | 0:14:10 | 0:14:14 | |
terms of child abuse online and we
have not seen significant action, | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
and it does not appear these kind of
calls from the Government actually | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
make difference.
Well, at the moment we are seeing | 0:14:21 | 0:14:26 | |
the police being able to make about
400 arrests per month, about 500 | 0:14:26 | 0:14:31 | |
children being safeguarded. The
Government itself is investing a lot | 0:14:31 | 0:14:35 | |
of money in new technology like the
project Arachnid, and making sure | 0:14:35 | 0:14:41 | |
the police have the specialist
resources they need to go | 0:14:41 | 0:14:45 | |
undercover, and absolutely find
these perpetrators and bring them to | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
justice, but we do need to
constantly have the engagement and | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
support of the companies themselves
to invest in further technologies to | 0:14:50 | 0:14:55 | |
prevent this from happening. As you
say, we have made progress but we | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
need to see yet more. Sarah Newton,
thank you very much for speaking to | 0:14:58 | 0:15:03 | |
us today. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:05 | |
Michael Fallon's decision
to resign this week, | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
saying his past conduct with women
fell short of the standard expected | 0:15:07 | 0:15:12 | |
of the Armed Forces, led
to something of a minor reshuffle. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
And the Prime Minister took
Westminster by surprise | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
when she announced his replacement,
former Chief Whip and relative | 0:15:16 | 0:15:18 | |
newcomer to the ministerial
ranks, Gavin Williamson. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
Here he is speaking on the day
of his appointment. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:25 | |
It's an immense privilege to have
been appointed Secretary | 0:15:25 | 0:15:27 | |
of State for Defence,
and what we need to be doing | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
is continuing to focus
on countering Daesh, | 0:15:30 | 0:15:32 | |
making sure that our national
security is at the forefront | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
of everything that we do,
and we have some of the world's | 0:15:35 | 0:15:37 | |
greatest armed services,
and it's such a privilege to be able | 0:15:37 | 0:15:40 | |
to work with them. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:46 | |
Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,
arrives at the Ministry of Defence | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
at a challenging time
for UK defence. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:51 | |
The Government has promised
an above-inflation increase | 0:15:51 | 0:15:53 | |
in spending every year
but the Ministry of Defence | 0:15:53 | 0:15:55 | |
is already committed to finding
£20 billion of savings | 0:15:55 | 0:15:57 | |
over the next ten years. | 0:15:57 | 0:15:58 | |
The Cabinet Office is currently
conducting a security review | 0:15:58 | 0:16:00 | |
which will look at military
capabilities and funding up to 2022, | 0:16:00 | 0:16:03 | |
while there are continuing
reports of shortages | 0:16:03 | 0:16:04 | |
of manpower and equipment. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:09 | |
And if Labour were to win power,
questions persist over | 0:16:09 | 0:16:12 | |
what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership
would mean for defence budget | 0:16:12 | 0:16:14 | |
and the traditional cornerstones
of UK defence policy | 0:16:14 | 0:16:16 | |
like Trident and Nato. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:17 | |
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
secretary, Nia Griffith. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
Well we're joined now
by the Shadow Defence | 0:16:22 | 0:16:24 | |
secretary, Nia Griffith. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:30 | |
Let's talk about defence spending
first. Would Labour commit to the | 0:16:30 | 0:16:35 | |
same thing this Government has which
is an above inflation increase in | 0:16:35 | 0:16:38 | |
spending every year? We've been
absolutely clear about that. First | 0:16:38 | 0:16:43 | |
and foremost we'd meet our
commitment of spending at least 2% | 0:16:43 | 0:16:48 | |
of GDP on defence as is our Nato
commitment and we would match the | 0:16:48 | 0:16:54 | |
Government's year-on-year 0.5%
increase above inflation. This is | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
really important. Labour's always
had a good strong track record of | 0:16:57 | 0:17:01 | |
spending on defence. Jeremy Corbyn
seems to have a different view. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
Speaking at a protest in 2010 he
said Labour wanted to fight all the | 0:17:04 | 0:17:09 | |
cuts except those in the Armed
Forces where we want to see a few | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
more cuts taking place. He doesn't
seem committed to defence spending? | 0:17:13 | 0:17:18 | |
In the manifesto for this year's
election, 2017, he and John | 0:17:18 | 0:17:23 | |
McDonnell have been absolutely clear
we support the exact words I've been | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
using now, at least 2% of the spend
of GDP spent on defence. Jeremy | 0:17:26 | 0:17:32 | |
Corbyn's changed his mind on that?
He's been very clear about that and | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
it was in our manifesto this year.
You criticised the Government on | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
whether they meet their 2%
commitment on defence. You saying | 0:17:41 | 0:17:47 | |
they were fiddling the figures
because they were including | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
pensions. You would strip that out
and snake sure there's 2% spending | 0:17:50 | 0:17:55 | |
on defence which doesn't include
pensions? Technically, the | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
Government would argue you are
allowed to include pensions by the | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
Nato rules. But we've been very
clear, really, when you're talking | 0:18:00 | 0:18:06 | |
about defence spending it should
mean defence. When you look at the | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
last year of the Labour Government
we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are | 0:18:10 | 0:18:16 | |
very much committed to looking at
what we need in our defence budget | 0:18:16 | 0:18:21 | |
and looking to the problems they
have now where they can't meet the | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
commitments they've made. You would
sprip pensions out of those figures. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:30 | |
In order to live up to these
commitments you have to find an | 0:18:30 | 0:18:35 | |
extra billion for the defence
budgets because we're not | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
calculating pensions anymore? John
McDonnell is well aware of what they | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
are doing. Putting in the conflict
resolution money which Gordon Brown | 0:18:43 | 0:18:47 | |
kept separate. He is well aware of
the figures and the difficulties. We | 0:18:47 | 0:18:52 | |
are certainly very committed to a
defence budget that really does make | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
a difference. I'm not clear whether
you're telling me it will be 2% 69 | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
spending, excluding pensions? We
want it to be 2% of GDP as in the | 0:19:01 | 0:19:07 | |
way Labour always calculate it had
up until 2010, not including | 0:19:07 | 0:19:11 | |
pensions. A significant increase in
military spending? We are talking | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
about making sure the spending we
need is there because, at the | 0:19:16 | 0:19:20 | |
current situation, we have with the
current Government, they are | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
overstretched. Even the very caution
National Audit Office says they are | 0:19:23 | 0:19:29 | |
at immense risk of not being able to
meet the expenditure commitment the | 0:19:29 | 0:19:34 | |
they have made. Others talk about a
black hole. You mentioned it that | 0:19:34 | 0:19:39 | |
£20 billion. There is a real issue
we have to address. To you know what | 0:19:39 | 0:19:46 | |
it will cost, how muchedingsal funds
will have to be found? We have to | 0:19:46 | 0:19:51 | |
rook at what are the needs at the
time as well as the facts we want to | 0:19:51 | 0:19:57 | |
make that 2% commitment not
including things which have just | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
been brushed in now by the
Conservative Government. Let's move | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
on to a different aspect of defence.
There is a treaty banning nuclear | 0:20:04 | 0:20:10 | |
weapons opened at the UN for
signatories. 122 countries have | 0:20:10 | 0:20:14 | |
already signed it. Would an incoming
Labour Government sign that treaty? | 0:20:14 | 0:20:19 | |
The important point here is there
was an Is inned opportunity for | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
there to be observers from the UK.
There should have been at that | 0:20:22 | 0:20:27 | |
treaty talks. That doesn't change
the calculation whether or not an | 0:20:27 | 0:20:33 | |
incoming Labour Government would
sign that treaty? We are committed | 0:20:33 | 0:20:39 | |
to a strong multi-lateral disarming
programme. That's what we've seen | 0:20:39 | 0:20:44 | |
missing. This is a multilateral
approach to try to get rid of | 0:20:44 | 0:20:48 | |
nuclear weapons. What you say you
want. Would a Labour Government sign | 0:20:48 | 0:20:53 | |
that treaty? You we have to look at
how you go about things. We need toe | 0:20:53 | 0:20:57 | |
somebody clear we want to
de-escalate tensions across the | 0:20:57 | 0:21:00 | |
world. Work with other nuclear
partners to help stop the | 0:21:00 | 0:21:05 | |
proliferation of nuclear weapons. We
want to work with those countries | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
who feel very strongly about the
treaty so we can work together. We | 0:21:09 | 0:21:15 | |
have to do that in a multilateral
framework. This is a multi-lateral | 0:21:15 | 0:21:21 | |
disarmament framework. Under the
auspice Is of the UN disto see how | 0:21:21 | 0:21:25 | |
else it could be organised. This is
a great opportunity for you, who | 0:21:25 | 0:21:29 | |
have been a lifelong campaigner for
disarmament.ment Labour Government | 0:21:29 | 0:21:34 | |
will be the first nuclear power to
do so, sign it and lead the way. We | 0:21:34 | 0:21:39 | |
need to use our position to be
responsible and call for responsible | 0:21:39 | 0:21:44 | |
multi-lateral disarmamentment there
was progress made on this in the | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
eighties and nineties with
considerable amount of are heads put | 0:21:47 | 0:21:50 | |
to one side and destroyed. We need
to get back on the front foot there. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:54 | |
I don't see any presence by the UK
Government at the moment on that | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
aagain da. It is not helpful for the
nukes leer nations to be separated | 0:21:57 | 0:22:03 | |
from the non-nuclear nation in the
these debates. That's why I don't | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
understand why you're not taking the
opportunity to say a Labour | 0:22:08 | 0:22:13 | |
Government would Take The Stand. We
should wok together and we should | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
use our position as a nuclear power
to work for a multilateral | 0:22:16 | 0:22:21 | |
disarmament programme. You were very
clear in your manifesto that the | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
Labour Party would keep Trident for
the meantime. Abs will yously. We | 0:22:25 | 0:22:29 | |
know throughout his life, Jeremy
Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
it. He signed up to the manifesto
saying Trident would stay. Has he | 0:22:32 | 0:22:39 | |
changed his minds? The important
thing is that was a manifesto | 0:22:39 | 0:22:44 | |
Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.
We stood on it in 2017 because that | 0:22:44 | 0:22:48 | |
is the Labour Party position.
Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour | 0:22:48 | 0:22:53 | |
Leader really believes in that
position? He believes in democracy | 0:22:53 | 0:22:56 | |
in the party. That is the Labour
Party position. I don't see that | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
position changing at all. He has
said very clearly that he accepts | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
that is our Labour Party position.
And that is the manifesto we've | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
stood on and will continue to stand
on. I'll need to ask questions about | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
sexual harassment in Westminster. It
is as much as inissue for the Labour | 0:23:12 | 0:23:17 | |
Party as the Conservative. It was
not clear listening to Dawn Butler, | 0:23:17 | 0:23:21 | |
your colleague on The Andrew Marr
Show this morning, she was asked | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
whether or not the leadership knew
about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:29 | |
Do you know? I absolutely do not
know at this moment in time. That's | 0:23:29 | 0:23:33 | |
why there has to be an
investigation. It is extremely | 0:23:33 | 0:23:35 | |
important to find out what the
allegations were, exactly what | 0:23:35 | 0:23:40 | |
happened, who was told and who told
what to whom. Then we will be in a | 0:23:40 | 0:23:45 | |
position to see what the situation
is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins | 0:23:45 | 0:23:50 | |
has been suspended which is the
cricket thing to do. Rosie Winterton | 0:23:50 | 0:23:56 | |
has been outspoken about what she
let the leadership know. If it is | 0:23:56 | 0:24:01 | |
the case the leadership did know
about these allegations should he | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
have been put into the Shadow
Cabinet? The real question is who | 0:24:04 | 0:24:09 | |
did know what when. But what I'm
asking you is... I am anot going to | 0:24:09 | 0:24:15 | |
speculate whether there was an if or
whatever. We need to know how that | 0:24:15 | 0:24:19 | |
information was transmitted. Was it
put in writing. What it made clear, | 0:24:19 | 0:24:23 | |
who was told what, when. Until we
have a full investigation it would | 0:24:23 | 0:24:27 | |
be inappropriate to comment. What is
absolute lie clear, we need to get | 0:24:27 | 0:24:31 | |
this right for the future. We must
have proper procedures so we deal | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
with incidents as and when they
occur. And we deal with them | 0:24:35 | 0:24:40 | |
prepperly in a way which gets to the
bottom of the issue and deals with | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
it properly. Why should anyone have
confidence the Labour Party will | 0:24:43 | 0:24:48 | |
treat issues that seriously when,
firstly there's a question whether | 0:24:48 | 0:24:53 | |
they knew about Kelvin hop kips and
others have been dissuaded from | 0:24:53 | 0:24:57 | |
making complaints. Knots just Bex
Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she | 0:24:57 | 0:25:02 | |
was harassed at a party senior
figures in the Labour Party told her | 0:25:02 | 0:25:07 | |
it was her own fault. It seems as if
there hasn't been a culture within | 0:25:07 | 0:25:14 | |
Labour to make a complaint. That's
why we're having a thorough review | 0:25:14 | 0:25:19 | |
of procedures. We brought in new
procedures in July. We need to | 0:25:19 | 0:25:24 | |
ensure there's a proper helpline
available. We are appointing an | 0:25:24 | 0:25:29 | |
independent organisation which will
deal with allegations first-hand so | 0:25:29 | 0:25:32 | |
nobody has to go to somebody they
think might know other people, be | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
friends with other people. They can
go somewhere completely confidential | 0:25:35 | 0:25:41 | |
and private. These are often things
you can't want to tell your cross | 0:25:41 | 0:25:45 | |
friends about. We will appoint that
organisation and make sure people | 0:25:45 | 0:25:49 | |
can go there and access to it is
made widely known. It is very, very | 0:25:49 | 0:25:54 | |
important when people come into a
job, they know if anything does | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
happen, they will be able to
complain. Whether they are ordinary | 0:25:57 | 0:26:01 | |
party members or working in
Westminster. Thank you for talking | 0:26:01 | 0:26:07 | |
to us | 0:26:07 | 0:26:07 | |
For Thank you for talking to us some | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
on the left of politics, | 0:26:09 | 0:26:11 | |
this weekend wasn't just a chance | 0:26:11 | 0:26:13 | |
to mark the anniversary
of the failed gunpowder | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
plot here in Britain,
but also events in Russia 100 years | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries
led by Lenin seized power | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
and ushered in seven
decades of Communist rule. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:22 | |
For critics, that's something
to regret, not celebrate. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:24 | |
Elizabeth Glinka went to one event
in London to find out more. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:26 | |
The 7th November 1917. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
Red Guards under the leadership
of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy | 0:26:32 | 0:26:36 | |
Government buildings in Petrograd. | 0:26:36 | 0:26:41 | |
This uprising, known
popularly as Red October | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
because of the difference
in the Gregorian calendar, | 0:26:44 | 0:26:46 | |
was, in fact, a coup. | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
The winds of socialist change had
been blowing for some time. | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
The Tsars had resisted reform
and millions toiled in a state | 0:26:53 | 0:26:58 | |
of almost medieval surfdom. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
Then war. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
Nearly two million
Russians would die. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:09 | |
The revolution had really begun nine
months earlier in February 1917. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:14 | |
The world's first socialist
republic was declared. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:20 | |
October, well that
was the Bolsheviks | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
asserting their authority. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:27 | |
A hundred years on, as this
event at the TUC shows, | 0:27:29 | 0:27:32 | |
there's still plenty of people
who want to remember and even | 0:27:32 | 0:27:36 | |
celebrate those momentous events. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:39 | |
Mainly as an event in history, | 0:27:39 | 0:27:42 | |
this is an example of historical
development in action, | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
the ability of people to club
together and be able to affect | 0:27:45 | 0:27:48 | |
the discourse of history. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:50 | |
It was people's first attempt at
trying to build socialism. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:52 | |
Although there were many terrible
things that happened, | 0:27:52 | 0:27:55 | |
I think we have to try
and draw from experience. | 0:27:55 | 0:27:57 | |
Jeremy Corbyn's close friend
and adviser, Andrew Murray, | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
was chairing the opening session. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:03 | |
He didn't want to talk to us
but we did manage to speak | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
to the daughter of one of the most
famous Communists of all time. | 0:28:06 | 0:28:12 | |
TRANSLATION: It's an historic moment | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
which opened up possibilities
for further changes | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
and allowed other people
to strive for a different world. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:20 | |
A world, which it seems,
some are still keen to push for. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:24 | |
We're growing, so there is obviously
a positive reflection. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:26 | |
There is a lot of negative
propaganda that comes | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
from the Cold War period. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:31 | |
It is harder to talk
to older people maybe. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:33 | |
But younger people
are quite receptive. | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
The events and discussions taking
place here today cover a whole range | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
of topics from women's
rights to the Third World | 0:28:38 | 0:28:41 | |
and the impact on British socialism. | 0:28:41 | 0:28:43 | |
But there's much less discussion
of the Russian Civil War, | 0:28:43 | 0:28:47 | |
the purges and the political
repression that would come later. | 0:28:47 | 0:28:51 | |
We wanted to have this conference | 0:28:51 | 0:28:54 | |
because we wanted to show it
in a positive light. | 0:28:54 | 0:28:57 | |
Whatever one's view of what happened
to the Soviet Union subsequently | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
the fact is it is important
to understand the process | 0:29:00 | 0:29:04 | |
of revolutionary change
for its own sake. | 0:29:04 | 0:29:08 | |
Red October would usher
in 70 years of communism. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:12 | |
The proletarite would rise,
find respect and security. | 0:29:12 | 0:29:15 | |
But the suppression of the peoples
of Eastern Europe, the forced labour | 0:29:15 | 0:29:19 | |
camps and the murder of hundreds
of thousands, if not millions | 0:29:19 | 0:29:24 | |
of people, make it difficult
for many to see that revolution | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
as something to celebrate. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:31 | |
That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting. | 0:29:32 | 0:29:34 | |
So is the centenary
of the Russian Revolution a cause | 0:29:34 | 0:29:37 | |
for celebration, or regret? | 0:29:37 | 0:29:38 | |
Well, to discuss this I'm
joined by former Labour | 0:29:38 | 0:29:40 | |
and Respect MP George Galloway,
and the journalist Peter Hitchens. | 0:29:40 | 0:29:46 | |
Good morning. Let me start with you
George Galloway. Is the October | 0:29:46 | 0:29:51 | |
revolution a cause for celebration?
With the, if not for the October | 0:29:51 | 0:29:56 | |
revolution, we'd been conducting
this interview in German. Though the | 0:29:56 | 0:29:59 | |
truth is this interview wouldn't be
taking place and we probably | 0:29:59 | 0:30:03 | |
wouldn't be alive for a variety of
reasons. The Soviet Union broke the | 0:30:03 | 0:30:10 | |
back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill
often owe pined in Parliament and | 0:30:10 | 0:30:14 | |
elsewhere. If not for the Soviet
Union, Hitler would have ruled. And | 0:30:14 | 0:30:21 | |
his successorsness, perhaps until
now, from Vladivostok all the way to | 0:30:21 | 0:30:27 | |
Portugal. You say we wouldn't be
able to have this discussion. In the | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
former Soviet Union we couldn't have
this office either? That's also | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
true. But even the... George will be
able to say, that of course. Even | 0:30:33 | 0:30:41 | |
the sun has spots on its face as
they used to say in the Soviet | 0:30:41 | 0:30:45 | |
Union. There is no doubt tremendous
abrasions, big crimes, a lot of | 0:30:45 | 0:30:54 | |
suffering but, if not for the
transformation, then the Soviet | 0:30:54 | 0:31:04 | |
Union, Russia's GDP increased from
1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation. | 0:31:04 | 0:31:11 | |
And the strength that defeated
Hitlerism would not have been there. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:18 | |
Peter Hitchens, does it offend you
there are people celebrating 100 | 0:31:18 | 0:31:22 | |
years since the Russian Revolution?
Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union, | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
in which I lived, you would not have
been able to say it was set up by a | 0:31:27 | 0:31:32 | |
cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but
engineered by the German Imperial | 0:31:32 | 0:31:35 | |
Government using -- a cynical
putsch, almost bloodless. That this | 0:31:35 | 0:31:52 | |
was the inauguration of an immensely
long period of repression, | 0:31:52 | 0:31:57 | |
brutality, secret police,
concentration camps and lies, which | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
I am likely to have seen come to an
end in my lifetime, and I cannot see | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
why anybody looking at that
disastrous country where so much | 0:32:05 | 0:32:08 | |
misery was needlessly imposed on so
many people for so long could | 0:32:08 | 0:32:11 | |
possibly celebrate the beginning of
it, which was completely avoidable, | 0:32:11 | 0:32:14 | |
and as I say was truly the result of
the cynical foreign policy and | 0:32:14 | 0:32:20 | |
intelligence operations of the
Imperial German Government is trying | 0:32:20 | 0:32:22 | |
to save it skin... But everyone
including George Galloway | 0:32:22 | 0:32:27 | |
acknowledges the tyranny and terror
that followed. He doesn't. He gives | 0:32:27 | 0:32:32 | |
statistics about GDP but fails to
mention the people murdered in | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
labour | 0:32:34 | 0:32:41 | |
camp... He was of course formerly a
Trotskyite and sung the praises of | 0:32:41 | 0:32:47 | |
Lenin, which I have not done and
neither have I done today. I have | 0:32:47 | 0:32:52 | |
never been a Communist, unlike Peter
Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and | 0:32:52 | 0:32:56 | |
celebrate that an entirely different
world opened up as a result of the | 0:32:56 | 0:33:00 | |
events in October 19 17. China, you
have just seen their party congress, | 0:33:00 | 0:33:05 | |
decorated with the iconography of
the Bolshevik Revolution, and China | 0:33:05 | 0:33:09 | |
is the most powerful, or soon will
be the most powerful country on the | 0:33:09 | 0:33:13 | |
earth. With one of the most
repressive government? I don't think | 0:33:13 | 0:33:17 | |
that is true. There is repression in
China, but... Enormous repression in | 0:33:17 | 0:33:23 | |
China! How can you possibly argue
there is an? China has taken more | 0:33:23 | 0:33:28 | |
people out of poverty in the last 30
years than any country, resume, | 0:33:28 | 0:33:33 | |
system, ever has -- how can you
possibly argue there is not? All | 0:33:33 | 0:33:37 | |
despots always argue, trying to
distract your attention from the | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
mountains of skulls behind them,
their supposed economic success, | 0:33:41 | 0:33:45 | |
which generally does not turn out to
be as great as claimed. The Soviet | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
Union was an enormous pile of rust
by the time I lived there and was a | 0:33:48 | 0:33:53 | |
complete catastrophe. Yes, that is
why it fell down. But we are talking | 0:33:53 | 0:33:58 | |
about the Revolution 100 years ago.
Is it possible to separate the two | 0:33:58 | 0:34:03 | |
events? A popular overthrowing of a
government is perhaps different from | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
the tyranny and terror that
followed. It was not a popular | 0:34:06 | 0:34:11 | |
overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein
propaganda as if it were fact. What | 0:34:11 | 0:34:16 | |
we see was a film made afterwards.
What actually happened was a putsch | 0:34:16 | 0:34:21 | |
in the middle of the night in which
hardly anybody... Nobody has even | 0:34:21 | 0:34:29 | |
mentioned... That German connection,
a rather more important... Nobody | 0:34:29 | 0:34:36 | |
has even mentioned during this year
until now that there was a Russian | 0:34:36 | 0:34:39 | |
Revolution. There were two. The
first one was a genuine uprising, | 0:34:39 | 0:34:45 | |
overthrowing the old regime, and I
think we can all be glad of it. The | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
second one was a cynical for --
foreign financed putsch and it does | 0:34:48 | 0:34:54 | |
not deserve to be spoken out. Is
that true, and Menshevik revolution | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
would have done better than a
Bolshevik one? It is not my business | 0:34:57 | 0:35:03 | |
and entirely counterfactual fiction,
if I may... Unlike how you open this | 0:35:03 | 0:35:09 | |
discussion. That is the most
important thing. If not for the | 0:35:09 | 0:35:13 | |
Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.
Hetmyer might still, and most of the | 0:35:13 | 0:35:20 | |
world, with its allies -- Adolph
Hitler might have won and they make, | 0:35:20 | 0:35:25 | |
and most of the world... The effect
of Bolshevism and coming is on | 0:35:25 | 0:35:30 | |
Europe was colossal. Let's bring it
all a little bit more up-to-date. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:34 | |
You were saying earlier you have
never been a Leninist, although | 0:35:34 | 0:35:39 | |
Peter Hitchens confesses he was at
one time. Absolutely was a | 0:35:39 | 0:35:45 | |
Trotskyist, and now nor the complete
folly of that particular political | 0:35:45 | 0:35:52 | |
disposition. John McDonnell in the
Labour Party openly says he is a | 0:35:52 | 0:35:57 | |
Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a
problem for the Labour Party? I | 0:35:57 | 0:36:02 | |
would have thought, arts would be
more respected now than he has been | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
for quite some time as capitalism is
collapsing around our ears. From | 0:36:05 | 0:36:10 | |
2008 the Economist itself, the bible
of capitalism, began to resurrect | 0:36:10 | 0:36:16 | |
Marxist economics and analysis, so I
really don't think it is. Jeremy | 0:36:16 | 0:36:21 | |
Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only
took them four years, 54... It is | 0:36:21 | 0:36:31 | |
not that. I think we are moving into
an era where Governments like the | 0:36:31 | 0:36:38 | |
Chinese Government are making plans,
and are succeeding in implementing | 0:36:38 | 0:36:42 | |
them, and thus transforming their
position. China in 1949, and I don't | 0:36:42 | 0:36:48 | |
need to tell you, was just about the
most backward place you could | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
possibly imagine. And from 1949 to
now it has sold transforms that it | 0:36:51 | 0:36:58 | |
is the world's biggest economy... We
are in danger of getting sidetracked | 0:36:58 | 0:37:07 | |
by China here. I have to put this
point in. If China was backward in | 0:37:07 | 0:37:11 | |
1949 it was far more backward by the
time Mao Zedong finished his great | 0:37:11 | 0:37:15 | |
leap forward and starved millions of
people to death in the period of | 0:37:15 | 0:37:19 | |
economic lunacy. You just don't
notice... What George was saying | 0:37:19 | 0:37:25 | |
they are, and a sense certainly
amongst younger voters in this | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
country and others, where they are
turning against capitalism, they | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
don't think it has worked or
delivered for them, that this kind | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
of Marxist Leninist philosophy is
becoming more popular? Let's hope | 0:37:34 | 0:37:38 | |
not. The fact the current system is
failing does not seem to recommend | 0:37:38 | 0:37:42 | |
the Soviet system, which is
demonstrably a failure, and even its | 0:37:42 | 0:37:48 | |
own leaders admitted it failed and
that is why they tried to reform it | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
in the period I was there and why it
collapsed. Whatever you might want | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
to conclude from examining our
position, the Soviet alternative is | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
not the thing you want the dues.
This was a long period of disaster, | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
and I remember at the end of it
watching in Moscow said a film which | 0:38:00 | 0:38:05 | |
has never been shown here, and the
title means approximately we can't | 0:38:05 | 0:38:11 | |
go on living like this, and for the
first time, the politburo told the | 0:38:11 | 0:38:17 | |
truth about what life was like in
the dreadful place and everyone in | 0:38:17 | 0:38:19 | |
that cinema was weeping because
finally they saw the truth being | 0:38:19 | 0:38:23 | |
told about the dreadful
anti-civilisation in which they had | 0:38:23 | 0:38:25 | |
been taught to live for so long. The
idea we should celebrate it revive | 0:38:25 | 0:38:29 | |
it seems to me to be verging on the
obscene. George, one interesting | 0:38:29 | 0:38:34 | |
question about this of course,
whilst there are events going on in | 0:38:34 | 0:38:39 | |
London and across the UK to mark
this centenary, it is not being | 0:38:39 | 0:38:42 | |
celebrated in Russia. I was in
Russia a couple of weeks ago. There | 0:38:42 | 0:38:45 | |
is a big debate about whether it
ought to be, and many people are | 0:38:45 | 0:38:50 | |
celebrating it... Vladimir Putin is
not. He would want to ignore it. But | 0:38:50 | 0:38:54 | |
the Communist Party is the second
biggest party in Russia. And it is | 0:38:54 | 0:38:59 | |
the ruling party in China, which,
with respect, is not a separate | 0:38:59 | 0:39:05 | |
thing, because China is continuing
the Russian Revolution and doing | 0:39:05 | 0:39:07 | |
rather better at it than the
Russians did, but there are many | 0:39:07 | 0:39:12 | |
people, particularly older, that is
true, who think that the era of the | 0:39:12 | 0:39:16 | |
Soviet Union was better than the
very cold period of capitalism that | 0:39:16 | 0:39:22 | |
succeeded it. So half the world
followed for a time the red flag, | 0:39:22 | 0:39:29 | |
the red banner of Leninism. No one
will do so again. Leninism of the | 0:39:29 | 0:39:37 | |
kind that Peter used to proselytise
is certainly not coming back, but | 0:39:37 | 0:39:41 | |
Marxism is going to live on. Let's
hope not. Thank you both, gentlemen, | 0:39:41 | 0:39:46 | |
for coming on to speak about that. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:48 | |
It's coming up to 11.40am. | 0:39:48 | 0:39:49 | |
You're watching the Sunday Politics. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:50 | |
Coming up on the programme: | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
We've taken the moodbox to where
else but bonfire night celebrations. | 0:39:53 | 0:39:56 | |
We've taken the moodbox to where
else but bonfire night celebrations? | 0:39:56 | 0:39:59 | |
It wasn't just Westminster
that had the fireworks this week. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:02 | |
We're asking people in Guildford
in Surrey, | 0:40:02 | 0:40:03 | |
does Theresa May have control
of her Government and her party? | 0:40:03 | 0:40:10 | |
Hello. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:14 | |
I'm Martin Oates. | 0:40:14 | 0:40:15 | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics,
here in the south-west: | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
Remembering one of the region's
most charismatic MPs. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:21 | |
The former member for Falmouth
and Camborne Candy Atherton, | 0:40:21 | 0:40:24 | |
who died this week aged 62. | 0:40:24 | 0:40:28 | |
And for the next 20 minutes I'm
joined by Labour councillor | 0:40:28 | 0:40:30 | |
Rosie Denham and Conservative MP
Steve Double. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:32 | |
Welcome back to both of you. | 0:40:32 | 0:40:35 | |
Let's start with a warning
from the region's longest serving | 0:40:35 | 0:40:37 | |
Conservative MP that this week
delivered a bleak assessment | 0:40:37 | 0:40:42 | |
of his own government. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:47 | |
Steve, you obviously weren't
in Parliament as Gary is the only | 0:40:56 | 0:40:59 | |
one of the region's MPs who's been
in Parliament that long, but do | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
you recognise anything he says? | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
Clearly these are very difficult
times and we certainly not had | 0:41:05 | 0:41:07 | |
a great week and I think we do need
to take notice of people like Gary | 0:41:07 | 0:41:11 | |
who have been around a long time
and listen to the warnings | 0:41:11 | 0:41:16 | |
he is giving us, but the point I'd
make is that the one thing I think | 0:41:16 | 0:41:20 | |
is very different now
than it was in '92 is the Labour | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
Party are also very different. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:24 | |
He makes that point in The Times
on the back of his story. | 0:41:24 | 0:41:29 | |
And they also have huge
challenges of their own, | 0:41:29 | 0:41:32 | |
so I think in that regard it's very
different from '92 to '97, | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
but clearly as a Conservative Party
we need to listen and heed those | 0:41:35 | 0:41:38 | |
warnings. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:39 | |
Rosie, who was obviously invited
to write an opinion piece | 0:41:39 | 0:41:42 | |
in The Times having tweeted that
and he says one of the big | 0:41:42 | 0:41:45 | |
differences in the '92 to '97
Parliament, Blair was the coming | 0:41:45 | 0:41:48 | |
thing, it was clear the Labour Party
were strong and was going | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
to carry all before it. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:52 | |
He is saying the opposite
is the case now. | 0:41:52 | 0:41:54 | |
I don't think it's
the opposite at all. | 0:41:54 | 0:41:57 | |
Yes, the Labour Party has been
through some difficult times | 0:41:57 | 0:41:59 | |
and everyone is well aware of that,
but actually, the party feels | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
really, really united at the moment. | 0:42:02 | 0:42:06 | |
There is much clever
position now on Brexit, | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
which I think is welcomed | 0:42:09 | 0:42:11 | |
a lot by our members
and our supporters and I think | 0:42:11 | 0:42:13 | |
the country is looking for much
greater leadership and clarity | 0:42:13 | 0:42:16 | |
and at the moment the Labour Party
is the only party offering that. | 0:42:16 | 0:42:22 | |
Which position have they got
on Brexit this week? | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
It seems to change every week. | 0:42:25 | 0:42:28 | |
Gary also says in The Times piece
that it will be possible | 0:42:28 | 0:42:38 | |
for the Conservatives to soon-ish
to appear fresh again. | 0:42:39 | 0:42:41 | |
At this point in time
do you think that...? | 0:42:41 | 0:42:43 | |
I think that we've got some
incredibly talented and capable | 0:42:43 | 0:42:46 | |
new MPs over the last two or three
elections to I think | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
are coming into their own now. | 0:42:49 | 0:42:50 | |
I think the future is very positive. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:55 | |
Have the old guard had it? | 0:42:55 | 0:42:57 | |
Is that what you're saying? | 0:42:57 | 0:42:58 | |
Well I think that will happen
naturally, won't it? | 0:42:58 | 0:43:00 | |
And I think we need to buckle down
and get behind the current | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
Prime Minister, but also look
to the future. | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
I think new people coming through,
younger people coming | 0:43:05 | 0:43:07 | |
through is going to be good
for our party and I think | 0:43:07 | 0:43:10 | |
that is starting to happen. | 0:43:10 | 0:43:12 | |
Now, how many times on this
programme have you heard | 0:43:12 | 0:43:14 | |
politicians, people and even
presenters said that there | 0:43:14 | 0:43:16 | |
is a desperate shortage
of affordable housing? | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
If you had a pound for a number
of times, you could probably have | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
bought a home by now. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:22 | |
Then again, sadly, probably not. | 0:43:22 | 0:43:23 | |
The south-west suffers from the twin
pronged attack of having relatively | 0:43:23 | 0:43:27 | |
low wages and in some cases
sky-high accommodation prices. | 0:43:27 | 0:43:29 | |
The government has recently unveiled
yet another initiative to tackle | 0:43:29 | 0:43:33 | |
the problem and John Henderson has
had a crack at working | 0:43:33 | 0:43:35 | |
out what it could mean. | 0:43:35 | 0:43:37 | |
It's a stunning landscape,
and natural grand design, | 0:43:37 | 0:43:40 | |
but living the dream in South Devon
is something beyond | 0:43:40 | 0:43:43 | |
the means of most. | 0:43:43 | 0:43:46 | |
There's so many, there's
so much need for housing, | 0:43:46 | 0:43:48 | |
down here, Cornwall,
all over the place. | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
I rent in the private sector and it
costs a fortune to live here. | 0:43:51 | 0:43:55 | |
The solution is to first of all
reappraise the demand realistically. | 0:43:55 | 0:44:05 | |
And a reappraisal is exactly
what the government says it's doing | 0:44:05 | 0:44:10 | |
to fix what it describes
as a broken housing market. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:14 | |
In any area where the average house
prices are more than four | 0:44:14 | 0:44:20 | |
times average earnings,
we increase the number of homes | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
that will be planned. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
Mr Javid says his new formula
is based on a more honest method | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
for calculating housing need. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:32 | |
One which looks at the ratio
between earnings and house prices. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:36 | |
It means asking councils with high
house prices to build more | 0:44:36 | 0:44:39 | |
and attempt to balance
supply and demand. | 0:44:39 | 0:44:44 | |
Here's a breakdown of those
authorities that would have to build | 0:44:44 | 0:44:48 | |
more houses in red and those that
would have to build fewer in blue. | 0:44:48 | 0:44:53 | |
Pricey South Hams would go from
seeing 196 homes a year up to 354. | 0:44:53 | 0:44:59 | |
For campaigners who fought various
developments or had proposals | 0:44:59 | 0:45:02 | |
for community projects refused,
it's the worst news. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:07 | |
Horrified, absolutely horrified. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:09 | |
I mean, we're promised 1,000 extra
houses for Totnes in Dartington. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:13 | |
Just imagine, it's a bottleneck. | 0:45:13 | 0:45:15 | |
Just imagine when the traffic comes
through, it's already | 0:45:15 | 0:45:18 | |
completely congested. | 0:45:18 | 0:45:26 | |
Others welcomed the
government's new approach. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:27 | |
We can't carry on complaining
about how there is a housing crisis, | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
about how young people can't afford
to get onto the housing ladder | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
and then when we are presented
with a solution, duck our heads | 0:45:33 | 0:45:36 | |
and walk away. | 0:45:36 | 0:45:37 | |
We have to face this problem head
on and that means finding more | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
sites for more houses. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:42 | |
But Mr Javid's plans to rebalance
the market might be scuppered | 0:45:42 | 0:45:44 | |
by councils who are joining forces. | 0:45:44 | 0:45:47 | |
Here in the South Hams the local
housing plan is shared | 0:45:47 | 0:45:50 | |
with West Devon and Plymouth. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:53 | |
The three councils combined
have seen a slight fall | 0:45:53 | 0:45:56 | |
in the government's
house building expectations. | 0:45:56 | 0:46:00 | |
But still going it alone,
Torbay has seen a lot | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
of development of late. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:04 | |
A few years ago the BBC filmed these
fields being prepared to houses. | 0:46:04 | 0:46:09 | |
Now they are going up,
but under the new formula the number | 0:46:09 | 0:46:11 | |
of houses built every year in Torbay
would fall from just | 0:46:11 | 0:46:14 | |
over 1,000 to 588. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:19 | |
Those who've drilled
the numbers aren't surprised. | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
Well I think the general consensus
in Torbay is that we don't actually | 0:46:22 | 0:46:26 | |
need that many homes
because the economy is flat-lining. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:30 | |
As if to reiterate the point,
a former planning chief who has | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
helped draw up Paignton's housing
plan says jobs must come first. | 0:46:34 | 0:46:38 | |
The link with employment and jobs
and through that the income | 0:46:38 | 0:46:41 | |
because without an income you can't
rent or buy. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:45 | |
It's that basic. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:47 | |
So the link with jobs is critically
important and you must have that | 0:46:47 | 0:46:50 | |
balance and as soon as that balance
is not recognised or get out | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
of balance, you get a problem. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:59 | |
Providing enough jobs to support
new homes is an even bigger | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
challenge in the South Hams,
but then most buying | 0:47:02 | 0:47:04 | |
homes here on thinking
about the nine to five. | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
here aren't thinking
about the nine to five. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:18 | |
John Henderson reporting. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:19 | |
Well joining us to discuss this
further is the councillor | 0:47:19 | 0:47:22 | |
in charge of house planning
in the South Hams Michael Hicks. | 0:47:22 | 0:47:24 | |
Welcome to the programme. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:25 | |
Thank you. | 0:47:25 | 0:47:26 | |
You are obviously one
of the councils who have been told | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
you are not planning enough houses
and the government is suggesting | 0:47:29 | 0:47:32 | |
you should almost double the number
of projected new homes. | 0:47:32 | 0:47:34 | |
Well, they are suggesting that,
or at least it seems | 0:47:34 | 0:47:36 | |
as if they are suggesting that. | 0:47:36 | 0:47:38 | |
There is a debate about how much
they are willing to stake on this. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
Will come onto that. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:42 | |
Well, there are two things I need
to sort out to start with. | 0:47:42 | 0:47:45 | |
The first thing is that our local
plan is with the inspector | 0:47:45 | 0:47:48 | |
at the moment and we are under
the consultation document allowed | 0:47:48 | 0:47:51 | |
to continue with that
under the old rules. | 0:47:51 | 0:47:53 | |
So the new rules will not apply
to our plan unless something goes | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
pear shaped and it has
to be started again. | 0:47:56 | 0:48:05 | |
The other thing is that we have
looked at the consultation document, | 0:48:05 | 0:48:09 | |
obviously, and we have decided to do
a calculation based on the | 0:48:09 | 0:48:15 | |
government's suggestions and one we
did that we found that the figure we | 0:48:15 | 0:48:21 | |
came out with for the local plan is
900 houses more than that figure. So | 0:48:21 | 0:48:32 | |
we are in fact exceeding what the
government would have said had we | 0:48:32 | 0:48:36 | |
used that calculation. So you are
saying the government has got it | 0:48:36 | 0:48:40 | |
wrong in your case? No, I am saying
-- no, I am not saying that the | 0:48:40 | 0:48:47 | |
government has got it wrong. You
will end up talking about if you are | 0:48:47 | 0:48:53 | |
not careful two different things.
But yours is the correct figure and | 0:48:53 | 0:48:59 | |
the government's figure is wrong?
No, it's the difference between the | 0:48:59 | 0:49:09 | |
objectively assessed need which is
the starting point in all local | 0:49:09 | 0:49:12 | |
plans. That is deliberated over for
some time and we decide to arrive at | 0:49:12 | 0:49:23 | |
a figure and that figure is
somewhere near 354, which the | 0:49:23 | 0:49:29 | |
government has in the list. But what
you have to do then is moderate that | 0:49:29 | 0:49:35 | |
figure by using what we call
adjustments and the adjustments in | 0:49:35 | 0:49:39 | |
question are many and varied. In
fact, you have to deal with | 0:49:39 | 0:49:46 | |
employment... So you are potentially
saying that local knowledge should | 0:49:46 | 0:49:50 | |
ultimately determine and outline
prescription. I think it should it | 0:49:50 | 0:49:59 | |
does up to a point, but it's
important for us to understand which | 0:49:59 | 0:50:04 | |
figure is one we end up with. Steve,
some people are seeing this as the | 0:50:04 | 0:50:10 | |
end of the process where government
has said you have had a certain | 0:50:10 | 0:50:13 | |
amount of time to get your own
houses in order, as it work, and if | 0:50:13 | 0:50:17 | |
you don't, will step in? The housing
situation is one of the biggest | 0:50:17 | 0:50:23 | |
challenges facing our country and
it's clear that the way things have | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
been done in the past have worked.
In some ways this is a good approach | 0:50:26 | 0:50:31 | |
in not having a one size fits all
approach to housing needs, but | 0:50:31 | 0:50:36 | |
looking at local house prices and
wages. The meeting point for me in | 0:50:36 | 0:50:41 | |
places like all well and parts of
Devon is also looking at some of the | 0:50:41 | 0:50:45 | |
other factors in terms of second
homes, the number of people wanting | 0:50:45 | 0:50:48 | |
to move into the area and retire
which is what largely inflate house | 0:50:48 | 0:50:54 | |
prices in these areas. I don't think
the government has taken that | 0:50:54 | 0:50:56 | |
element into consideration. We need
to look a bit deeper. Are you happy | 0:50:56 | 0:51:04 | |
with the projected number of houses
were corn well? Cornwall hasn't | 0:51:04 | 0:51:09 | |
changed very much. But generally in
Cornwall it looks as if they are | 0:51:09 | 0:51:14 | |
pretty much in the government's
books. On the other hand, and lots | 0:51:14 | 0:51:20 | |
of Cornish residents have become
servants. When the local plan | 0:51:20 | 0:51:25 | |
figures were put together for
Cornwall it was a bottom-up process | 0:51:25 | 0:51:29 | |
with local parishes saying what they
felt the need was and we came up | 0:51:29 | 0:51:33 | |
with a figure. The planning
inspector then added to that because | 0:51:33 | 0:51:36 | |
of the factor of second homes that
had not been built in and that is | 0:51:36 | 0:51:40 | |
one of the big issues that has to be
addressed when we are looking at | 0:51:40 | 0:51:44 | |
housing need in places in the
south-west where people are buying | 0:51:44 | 0:51:48 | |
holiday homes and people in large
numbers are retiring to. It is a | 0:51:48 | 0:51:52 | |
step in the right direction, but you
said, local knowledge needs to be | 0:51:52 | 0:52:02 | |
factored in. Rosie, some people are
saying that this is a big stick | 0:52:02 | 0:52:05 | |
approach. Back in the day, John
Prescott took a similar approach. | 0:52:05 | 0:52:10 | |
House building has been a disaster
under this government. It was not | 0:52:10 | 0:52:15 | |
great under your government. It is
well acknowledged in the Labour | 0:52:15 | 0:52:20 | |
Party that it is one of the things
we wish we had done more of, but the | 0:52:20 | 0:52:25 | |
situation is far worse now and the
levels of affordable house building | 0:52:25 | 0:52:32 | |
is at an all-time low. It's about
the type of how sweet it is well and | 0:52:32 | 0:52:39 | |
councils don't have control. Control
is being taken away during the | 0:52:39 | 0:52:43 | |
planning process and they can't
dictate the type of housing they | 0:52:43 | 0:52:45 | |
want to see. It's not a surprise
that we are seeing the government | 0:52:45 | 0:52:54 | |
make these changes, but we also need
to see recognition of the issues | 0:52:54 | 0:52:59 | |
like second homes, but also wider
spread issues around affordable | 0:52:59 | 0:53:05 | |
housing and how we deliver that.
Michael finally on that point, would | 0:53:05 | 0:53:10 | |
you agree that it's not just about
building houses, it's about the type | 0:53:10 | 0:53:17 | |
of houses? It's not just about
building housing the delete-macro | 0:53:17 | 0:53:27 | |
houses, we need more low-cost
housing. That's what is so difficult | 0:53:27 | 0:53:36 | |
to do with because affordable
housing is funded by the higher cost | 0:53:36 | 0:53:41 | |
housing and the agreement we have
with our local plan at the moment is | 0:53:41 | 0:53:47 | |
30% affordable on any development
and that is something that we will | 0:53:47 | 0:53:53 | |
reinforce, but that means if you
want to increase the number of | 0:53:53 | 0:53:57 | |
houses in the South Hams, you have
got to have an awful lot of houses | 0:53:57 | 0:54:02 | |
just to acquire a fuel at low cost.
OK. Thank you very much for joining | 0:54:02 | 0:54:07 | |
us. Devastated, decimated and
destroyed. Some of the words used | 0:54:07 | 0:54:17 | |
regarding the impact on Brexit. It's
thought that the local market could | 0:54:17 | 0:54:27 | |
be swamped by low-cost products
coming in from other areas. | 0:54:27 | 0:54:34 | |
So we are in some of our over winter
crops which are part of our mid tier | 0:54:34 | 0:54:38 | |
scheme that we've just started. | 0:54:38 | 0:54:39 | |
Thinking ahead is something that
fits generation farmer George has | 0:54:39 | 0:54:41 | |
Thinking ahead is something that
fifth generation farmer George has | 0:54:48 | 0:54:50 | |
been preoccupied with ever
since the vote to leave the EU. | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
We will drill our next spring
crop into the residue. | 0:54:53 | 0:54:55 | |
So we will spray it off... | 0:54:55 | 0:54:57 | |
So we will spray it off... | 0:54:57 | 0:54:58 | |
On this 600 acre mixed crop
and cattle from the Exeter | 0:54:58 | 0:55:01 | |
which she runs in partnership
with his parents he is thinking | 0:55:01 | 0:55:04 | |
environmentally, as well as bringing
in a new grazing system | 0:55:04 | 0:55:06 | |
for their beef herd. | 0:55:06 | 0:55:07 | |
The idea is to head off any
issues Brexit might cause. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:10 | |
Clamping down on costs,
shouting about the premium product | 0:55:10 | 0:55:12 | |
and negotiating a direct deal
with London butcher shops. | 0:55:12 | 0:55:14 | |
The key concern here is that
post-Brexit trade deals | 0:55:14 | 0:55:16 | |
with countries outside the EU
could mean the British market | 0:55:16 | 0:55:19 | |
is flooded by much cheaper meat
from mass producers abroad. | 0:55:19 | 0:55:21 | |
We've got such a high welfare
model here in the UK. | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
It's probably some of the best beef
you'll find in the world | 0:55:24 | 0:55:27 | |
and we follow those assurance
guidelines and the cross | 0:55:27 | 0:55:30 | |
compliance guidelines. | 0:55:30 | 0:55:38 | |
So if they are just going
to undercut by bringing in lesser | 0:55:38 | 0:55:41 | |
quality imported beef,
it's good to be very difficult. | 0:55:41 | 0:55:47 | |
Trying to Brexit-proof a family farm
like this without really knowing | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
what Brexit is going to mean
is the sea and issue and some | 0:55:49 | 0:55:52 | |
of the concerns are taken directly
to Westminster week. | 0:55:52 | 0:55:57 | |
The son is very ambitious,
but this isn't easy, this isn't easy | 0:55:57 | 0:56:00 | |
at all because with regulation
and high animal welfare and... | 0:56:00 | 0:56:07 | |
As George keeps an eye on the farm,
his mother was telling | 0:56:07 | 0:56:09 | |
MPs his future depends
on the government | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
getting Brexit right. | 0:56:11 | 0:56:15 | |
If you're not making money
on your farm and you're not finding | 0:56:15 | 0:56:18 | |
that you have any profitability
or margin whatsoever, | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
you will not continue
with that particular product, | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
or livestock, or beef
production or lamb production. | 0:56:24 | 0:56:29 | |
It will be literally
landscapes without livestock. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:33 | |
The government says its aim
is to achieve the exact same trade | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
benefits outside the EU
as we enjoy inside. | 0:56:36 | 0:56:39 | |
A challenge that those on this Devon
farm are hopeful can be achieved, | 0:56:39 | 0:56:42 | |
but they are continuing
with their plan for if it | 0:56:42 | 0:56:44 | |
isn't, just in case. | 0:56:44 | 0:56:54 | |
Steve, there were farmers leaders
lining up really to say that there | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
was a real risk of things go badly
wrong on two fronts. One is leaving | 0:56:58 | 0:57:03 | |
the EU without any deal and enormous
tariffs being imposed and this fear | 0:57:03 | 0:57:13 | |
of cheap imports coming in from
outside. Yes. First of all we are | 0:57:13 | 0:57:19 | |
hopeful that we will get a deal. It
is no deal acceptable to you? I | 0:57:19 | 0:57:27 | |
think it went been to the farmers.
To coin a phrase, no deal is better | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
than a bad one. We do need to
prepare for a no deal. Different | 0:57:31 | 0:57:42 | |
sectors will be affected
differently, but what the government | 0:57:42 | 0:57:46 | |
has been clear on is maintaining
welfare standards for animals in any | 0:57:46 | 0:57:50 | |
trade deal will have to reflect
that. I don't imagine a situation | 0:57:50 | 0:57:54 | |
where in the trade deal we would
allow our market... The government | 0:57:54 | 0:57:59 | |
wants us to be more self-sufficient
in home-grown food. We currently | 0:57:59 | 0:58:06 | |
import 35% and the government wanted
to go down so I then think they will | 0:58:06 | 0:58:09 | |
allow the market to be flooded with
cheap imports. We will look to | 0:58:09 | 0:58:14 | |
maintain standards. There are
Conservative MPs who disagree. What | 0:58:14 | 0:58:23 | |
is your position? Farmers are right
to be worried. I would say no deal | 0:58:23 | 0:58:28 | |
is a bad deal, so I don't think that
distinction is a helpful one. Of | 0:58:28 | 0:58:33 | |
course there is a worry about the
ability to export, there is a right | 0:58:33 | 0:58:38 | |
to be worried about imports and if
we have no deal then we will be very | 0:58:38 | 0:58:42 | |
exposed and I think it is the cost,
but it's also the welfare of the | 0:58:42 | 0:58:47 | |
animals, the quality of the meat
coming to market. All of those | 0:58:47 | 0:58:51 | |
things are important to consumers
and we should be making sure that we | 0:58:51 | 0:58:54 | |
do have all of those protections in
place and if we don't have a deal | 0:58:54 | 0:59:00 | |
then we are incredibly exposed.
Rosie has touched on the fact that | 0:59:00 | 0:59:04 | |
there are huge opportunities for
export. Liam Fox and the | 0:59:04 | 0:59:09 | |
international trade Department are
really working on export | 0:59:09 | 0:59:12 | |
opportunities, particularly with
Southwest bombers and there will be | 0:59:12 | 0:59:14 | |
positive opportunities. In a break
with tradition, we will now be | 0:59:14 | 0:59:28 | |
paying tribute to Candy Atherton,
who passed away on Monday. | 0:59:28 | 0:59:35 | |
# I've lived a life that's for | 0:59:35 | 0:59:37 | |
# I travelled each and every
highway | 0:59:37 | 0:59:41 | |
# And more, much more than this | 0:59:41 | 0:59:43 | |
# I did it my way...# | 0:59:43 | 0:59:51 | |
I'm stuck! | 0:59:51 | 0:59:54 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:59:54 | 0:59:55 | |
The party serves. | 0:59:55 | 0:59:56 | |
Can you manage? | 0:59:56 | 0:59:57 | |
Are you all right now? | 0:59:57 | 0:59:59 | |
Oh, dear! | 0:59:59 | 1:00:01 | |
Right, we'll try again. | 1:00:01 | 1:00:02 | |
Thank you. | 1:00:02 | 1:00:03 | |
There we go. | 1:00:03 | 1:00:04 | |
APPLAUSE | 1:00:04 | 1:00:06 | |
You and Jeremy
Corbyn go back a long | 1:00:06 | 1:00:09 | |
way because he was your MP
when you were a councillor? | 1:00:09 | 1:00:12 | |
Yes. | 1:00:12 | 1:00:13 | |
I served six years in Islington
and I was mayor and | 1:00:13 | 1:00:16 | |
Jeremy was the north Islington
member of Parliament, | 1:00:16 | 1:00:18 | |
so obviously we came together to do
all sorts of things and | 1:00:18 | 1:00:21 | |
I've known him for years. | 1:00:21 | 1:00:23 | |
We don't always agree
about everything, but | 1:00:23 | 1:00:24 | |
we've always got on as friends. | 1:00:24 | 1:00:27 | |
You were then an MP
under Tony Blair. | 1:00:27 | 1:00:29 | |
Well I was always to
the left of Tony Blair, it | 1:00:29 | 1:00:32 | |
would be fair to say. | 1:00:32 | 1:00:34 | |
We all got, well every
woman was called a | 1:00:34 | 1:00:36 | |
Blairite and actually, you know,
there was a wide spectrum of women | 1:00:36 | 1:00:40 | |
right through the party,
and male MPs. | 1:00:40 | 1:00:43 | |
# I'll state my case...# | 1:00:43 | 1:00:45 | |
Falmouth and Camborne
have come home to | 1:00:45 | 1:00:47 | |
Labour. | 1:00:47 | 1:00:53 | |
# Of which I'm certain...# | 1:00:53 | 1:00:54 | |
I think it's a cock up and they
really are going to have to get | 1:00:54 | 1:00:58 | |
their act together before
next May's election. | 1:00:58 | 1:00:59 | |
Get in there and sort it out. | 1:00:59 | 1:01:01 | |
You have that strength. | 1:01:01 | 1:01:02 | |
# I find it all so amusing...# | 1:01:02 | 1:01:05 | |
Yes! | 1:01:05 | 1:01:07 | |
It's amazing, that,
and you didn't think that was | 1:01:07 | 1:01:09 | |
an issue. | 1:01:09 | 1:01:10 | |
I think that's a big issue. | 1:01:10 | 1:01:16 | |
I wouldn't have thought it was
an issue for a moment because... | 1:01:16 | 1:01:19 | |
LAUGHTER | 1:01:19 | 1:01:20 | |
# And may I say not in a shy way | 1:01:20 | 1:01:22 | |
# Oh, no, oh, no, not me | 1:01:22 | 1:01:30 | |
# I did it my way.# | 1:01:30 | 1:01:38 | |
Rosie, you are at the other end of
the region, but candy's influence | 1:01:54 | 1:02:05 | |
spread across the wider region. Yes,
she contributed a great amount. -- | 1:02:05 | 1:02:13 | |
Candy. Steve, you have crossed
swords with her on this programme | 1:02:13 | 1:02:21 | |
and in other situations. I met her
most often appearing on this | 1:02:21 | 1:02:25 | |
programme, but clearly a huge figure
in south-west politics and someone I | 1:02:25 | 1:02:28 | |
probably did not agree with about
much, but I respected her because | 1:02:28 | 1:02:36 | |
she campaigned passionately and
clearly achieved a lot in her time | 1:02:36 | 1:02:39 | |
as an MP. I was told that she was a
tribal loyal Labour person and she | 1:02:39 | 1:02:48 | |
also did a lot behind the scenes
cross party. She fundamentally just | 1:02:48 | 1:02:56 | |
believed in getting on getting
things done and serving her | 1:02:56 | 1:03:00 | |
community. Thank you both. I
remember her as being great fun as | 1:03:00 | 1:03:04 | |
well. That | 1:03:04 | 1:03:05 | |
to support. | 1:03:05 | 1:03:06 | |
All right, and at that point
we have to end it there. | 1:03:06 | 1:03:09 | |
My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,
and with that it's back to Sarah. | 1:03:09 | 1:03:11 | |
It's been a tricky
week for Theresa May - | 1:03:12 | 1:03:14 | |
again, you might think. | 1:03:14 | 1:03:15 | |
She's lost a Cabinet minister
and been forced into a reshuffle | 1:03:15 | 1:03:17 | |
which did little for party unity,
to say nothing of losing a Commons | 1:03:17 | 1:03:21 | |
vote on Brexit and yet more reports
of fireworks in Cabinet meetings - | 1:03:21 | 1:03:24 | |
this time apparently over housing. | 1:03:24 | 1:03:25 | |
So, is the Prime Minister's time
in office going with a bang | 1:03:25 | 1:03:28 | |
or more of a whimper? | 1:03:28 | 1:03:29 | |
Well, we sent Ellie Price | 1:03:29 | 1:03:30 | |
and the entirely unscientific
Sunday Politics moodbox | 1:03:30 | 1:03:32 | |
to Conservative-held Surrey,
to find out. | 1:03:32 | 1:03:34 | |
ALL: Three, two, one. | 1:03:34 | 1:03:38 | |
# Ignite the light
and let it shine...# | 1:03:38 | 1:03:44 | |
It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,
conspiracy, treachery, | 1:03:44 | 1:03:48 | |
but enough of the recent goings
on in the Conservative Party, | 1:03:48 | 1:03:51 | |
it's firework night here
in Guildford and we're asking, | 1:03:51 | 1:03:55 | |
does Theresa May have control
of her Government and her party? | 1:03:55 | 1:03:58 | |
Yes or no? | 1:03:58 | 1:03:59 | |
# Baby you're a firework...# | 1:03:59 | 1:04:04 | |
With all the scandals in Government
at the moment | 1:04:04 | 1:04:06 | |
and Brexit seems to be dragging on
a little bit longer than we thought. | 1:04:06 | 1:04:10 | |
So, at the moment, I don't think
she is in control. | 1:04:10 | 1:04:13 | |
She's too many people sniping
at her back, really. | 1:04:16 | 1:04:19 | |
Do you think Theresa
May's in control? | 1:04:19 | 1:04:21 | |
I think she's in control. | 1:04:21 | 1:04:22 | |
She's in a good job
having a tough time. | 1:04:22 | 1:04:24 | |
No, I don't. | 1:04:24 | 1:04:25 | |
I think she's a mess. | 1:04:25 | 1:04:27 | |
Even when you read her body language
when she's being interviewed | 1:04:27 | 1:04:29 | |
by people, she doesn't
seem like she's in control. | 1:04:29 | 1:04:32 | |
I think she has poor advisers. | 1:04:32 | 1:04:36 | |
I'm going to put it in the "yes". | 1:04:38 | 1:04:42 | |
I do think she's struggling but,
I still hope, still think she has | 1:04:42 | 1:04:46 | |
a bit of a grip on them. | 1:04:46 | 1:04:49 | |
The Queen is England's role. | 1:04:49 | 1:04:51 | |
It's her birth right. | 1:04:51 | 1:04:53 | |
She is England's role
of this country. | 1:04:53 | 1:04:56 | |
I'm going to vote for Theresa May. | 1:04:56 | 1:04:59 | |
I don't think there's anyone
who could do a better job. | 1:04:59 | 1:05:03 | |
I think she's had a bit of
a poisoned chalice with Brexit but | 1:05:03 | 1:05:06 | |
I think she could have done better. | 1:05:06 | 1:05:07 | |
The money's not going
to where it needs to go. | 1:05:07 | 1:05:10 | |
I think she should resign, really. | 1:05:10 | 1:05:11 | |
I feel a bit sorry
for her, actually. | 1:05:11 | 1:05:14 | |
I think she's been witch-hunted
a little bit. | 1:05:14 | 1:05:16 | |
She's doing her best. | 1:05:16 | 1:05:19 | |
With everything that's
going on with the Cabinet at the | 1:05:19 | 1:05:22 | |
moment, I think the Conservative
Party is in a real mess, actually. | 1:05:22 | 1:05:25 | |
Very disappointed. | 1:05:25 | 1:05:27 | |
Well, you get bickering in all parts
not just the Conservative Party. | 1:05:27 | 1:05:33 | |
And that's just sort
of par for the course. | 1:05:33 | 1:05:36 | |
But I'm sure she'll
hold everybody together | 1:05:36 | 1:05:38 | |
despite the current difficulties. | 1:05:38 | 1:05:40 | |
The Tories weren't in control
when they had the referendum | 1:05:40 | 1:05:43 | |
in the first place for the euro. | 1:05:43 | 1:05:45 | |
We've had two years
of complete chaos. | 1:05:45 | 1:05:48 | |
I don't see an end to it. | 1:05:48 | 1:05:51 | |
Well, I seem to have
acquired a few new friends. | 1:05:51 | 1:05:53 | |
The oohs and ahs are
over and so the moodbox | 1:05:53 | 1:05:57 | |
and the result is... | 1:05:57 | 1:06:00 | |
No. | 1:06:00 | 1:06:02 | |
The majority of people
here in Guildford | 1:06:02 | 1:06:03 | |
don't think Theresa May
is in control. | 1:06:03 | 1:06:06 | |
CHEERING | 1:06:06 | 1:06:10 | |
That was Ellie with the entirely
unscientific moodbox, and thanks | 1:06:10 | 1:06:12 | |
to Bushy Hill Junior School
in Guildford for having her along. | 1:06:12 | 1:06:19 | |
Let's put the Sorbol question to our
panel. Equally unscientific but all | 1:06:19 | 1:06:24 | |
seasoned Westminster watchers. Is
Theresa May in control of her | 1:06:24 | 1:06:27 | |
Government at the moment or is all
of this sex harassment allegations | 1:06:27 | 1:06:32 | |
swimming around loosening her grip?
Depends what you mean by in control. | 1:06:32 | 1:06:36 | |
All Prime Ministers have a degree of
control. They retain the power much | 1:06:36 | 1:06:43 | |
tat wrongage as we saw with her
reshuffle. Didn't go down well with | 1:06:43 | 1:06:47 | |
her MPs but she did it. You can't be
fully in control of these situations | 1:06:47 | 1:06:53 | |
in effectively what is a hung
Parliament. If she won a land sheep | 1:06:53 | 1:06:56 | |
in the election she would have the
authority to do what she wanted. She | 1:06:56 | 1:07:00 | |
could float over something like
this. Stories like this, you could | 1:07:00 | 1:07:04 | |
say she's perfectly suited for it,
the vicar's daughter, the church | 1:07:04 | 1:07:08 | |
goer, to sort it out. It is much
more complicated than that. I don't | 1:07:08 | 1:07:11 | |
think she will be able to get a full
grip of it. There are some practical | 1:07:11 | 1:07:15 | |
things that need to happen that will
happen. I remember with back to | 1:07:15 | 1:07:20 | |
basics and John Major, that equally
vague scandal, what was back to | 1:07:20 | 1:07:24 | |
basics about? It was still running
months afterwards, stories about a | 1:07:24 | 1:07:29 | |
minister having an affair. This is
different. I can see it will be | 1:07:29 | 1:07:33 | |
impossible for her to fully get to
grips with it. Does it provide an | 1:07:33 | 1:07:37 | |
opportunity for Theresa May to be
seen to be taking really serious | 1:07:37 | 1:07:41 | |
action, trying to root out a bad
culture in Westminster and therefore | 1:07:41 | 1:07:44 | |
get some political credit for it?
That opportunity was available to | 1:07:44 | 1:07:48 | |
her all of last week and she hasn't
taken it. What's remarkable for me | 1:07:48 | 1:07:54 | |
is the near complete breakdown in
discipline in the higher ranks the | 1:07:54 | 1:07:57 | |
Tory Party. It is extraordinary you
have Cabinet level ministers who are | 1:07:57 | 1:08:02 | |
not supporting their colleagues.
Ministers and former ministers | 1:08:02 | 1:08:06 | |
giving interviews in which they slag
off their former colleagues. It is | 1:08:06 | 1:08:10 | |
an absolute unholy mess. There is no
sense that she is gripping this. Or | 1:08:10 | 1:08:15 | |
has any particular solution. I think
we can have a lot of sympathy for | 1:08:15 | 1:08:18 | |
her in terms of finding a solution.
How on earth do you grip a problem | 1:08:18 | 1:08:22 | |
like this where you're talking about
apparently an indefinite period of | 1:08:22 | 1:08:31 | |
retrospective examination of
potential faults. 15 years is no | 1:08:31 | 1:08:34 | |
longer too historic for somebody to
dredge up some small thing that may | 1:08:34 | 1:08:37 | |
or may not have happened to them. It
is very difficult for her. But she's | 1:08:37 | 1:08:41 | |
being battered around by events.
Where does this story go next? I | 1:08:41 | 1:08:48 | |
think the whip's office on every
party, Tories, Labour, Liberal | 1:08:48 | 1:08:52 | |
Democrats, SNP all have their own
whipping operations. That seems to | 1:08:52 | 1:08:55 | |
be the place of it really. This is
because, where do we draw the line? | 1:08:55 | 1:09:01 | |
Going forward what mechanisms are
put in place to top this helping | 1:09:01 | 1:09:04 | |
again. To take allegations
seriously, report them and | 1:09:04 | 1:09:08 | |
investigate them independently. Or
is there a bigger job to go back | 1:09:08 | 1:09:13 | |
into the past retrospective, who
knew what when as Nia said about | 1:09:13 | 1:09:18 | |
Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow
Defence Secretary saying what did | 1:09:18 | 1:09:23 | |
the Labour Party leader know about
Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he | 1:09:23 | 1:09:27 | |
promoted him? Theresa May is unable
to do the retrospective bit. She's | 1:09:27 | 1:09:32 | |
simply too weak. I asked this of
Number Ten last week. Why are you | 1:09:32 | 1:09:37 | |
not more front-foot the on this.
They said they would be if they | 1:09:37 | 1:09:40 | |
possibly could be. She's running a
minority Government. She cannot be | 1:09:40 | 1:09:44 | |
seen to be going after a witch-hunt
on her own people. So, I think this | 1:09:44 | 1:09:49 | |
goes on. Enof thebly what the whips
new -- inevitably what the whips | 1:09:49 | 1:09:58 | |
knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did
the same thing on Andrew Marr. They | 1:09:58 | 1:10:07 | |
are being precise about the fact
they didn't know anything. Sarah | 1:10:07 | 1:10:12 | |
Newton said she heard no allegations
about her flock, the the MPs she was | 1:10:12 | 1:10:16 | |
in charge of rather than rumours
about any other Tories. Amber Rudd | 1:10:16 | 1:10:23 | |
say, I do not recognise the more
lurid allegations. What about the | 1:10:23 | 1:10:28 | |
less lurid once? So, this smells
very, very bad indeed. Jeremy | 1:10:28 | 1:10:32 | |
Corbyn's going to have to answer
some of these questions as well? | 1:10:32 | 1:10:38 | |
Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red
herring. Their remit is to get the | 1:10:38 | 1:10:43 | |
vote out for the Government
fundamentally. Everybody knows that. | 1:10:43 | 1:10:45 | |
They are not there, it is one of the
problems. They are not there to be | 1:10:45 | 1:10:49 | |
moral guides to these MPs. They are
there to win votes for the | 1:10:49 | 1:10:54 | |
Government or the opposition if that
becomes possible. And deal brutally | 1:10:54 | 1:10:58 | |
with MPs to make sure they get out
and vote. Of course they knew | 1:10:58 | 1:11:02 | |
virtually everything. But whether
they were obliged to act as moral | 1:11:02 | 1:11:07 | |
guard yawns in these situations, I
don't think they were. It was not | 1:11:07 | 1:11:10 | |
part of their job. Maybe you need
moral guardians in there but not the | 1:11:10 | 1:11:14 | |
whips. Normally, less than
three-weeks out from a budget that's | 1:11:14 | 1:11:20 | |
what we'd been talking about.
Dominating our conversation. Given | 1:11:20 | 1:11:22 | |
that's set for November 22nd, is
that an opportunity for the | 1:11:22 | 1:11:26 | |
Government to seize back control of
the story? Philip Hammond may be | 1:11:26 | 1:11:30 | |
glad we're not spending too much
time talking about the budget. It | 1:11:30 | 1:11:34 | |
should be an opportunity for the
Government to seize the agenda, draw | 1:11:34 | 1:11:38 | |
a line under all of this. I think
one of the very difficult as pects | 1:11:38 | 1:11:42 | |
of this so-called scandal for the
Government to manage is knowing | 1:11:42 | 1:11:46 | |
quite how long it will run. In the
normal scheme of things they lose | 1:11:46 | 1:11:50 | |
steam after a couple of weeks. But
there are so many potential gayses | 1:11:50 | 1:11:54 | |
that could come out, it might run
longer than that. Rather like the | 1:11:54 | 1:11:59 | |
expenses scandal. But there is an
opportunity at the budget to reset | 1:11:59 | 1:12:02 | |
the' again da. I just don't think
Philip Hammond will take it. I think | 1:12:02 | 1:12:07 | |
he's a very caution Chancellor. At
the moment, there is a feeling | 1:12:07 | 1:12:11 | |
Theresa May's leadership is so weak
it will be too dangerous for them to | 1:12:11 | 1:12:16 | |
do anything particularly dram attic
why. I expect a steady as you go | 1:12:16 | 1:12:21 | |
budget where they will be hoping not
to make any mistakes. You say there | 1:12:21 | 1:12:26 | |
is disagreement in the Cabinet about
what should be in the budget? | 1:12:26 | 1:12:31 | |
Disagreement between the Chancellor
and the Prime Minister. The | 1:12:31 | 1:12:37 | |
witch-hunt is hiding a huge story
which is the incredible dysfunction | 1:12:37 | 1:12:41 | |
between Number Ten and number 11.
Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't | 1:12:41 | 1:12:45 | |
bear to be in the same room with
each other let alone agreeing what's | 1:12:45 | 1:12:49 | |
in the budget. It is coming down to
housing. Everybody agrees it has to | 1:12:49 | 1:12:53 | |
be the centrepiece of the budget.
They have to get more houses built. | 1:12:53 | 1:12:59 | |
Philip Hammond wands that bee
deregulation. Theresa May wants to | 1:12:59 | 1:13:04 | |
are borrow up to 50 billion
merchandise more for the Government | 1:13:04 | 1:13:07 | |
to build for themselves. | 1:13:07 | 1:13:08 | |
That's all for today. | 1:13:08 | 1:13:10 | |
There's no Sunday Politics
next weekend | 1:13:10 | 1:13:12 | |
while Parliament is in recess, | 1:13:12 | 1:13:13 | |
but I'll be back here at 11am
on BBC One in two weeks' time. | 1:13:13 | 1:13:17 | |
Until then, bye bye. | 1:13:17 | 1:13:21 |