Browse content similar to 20/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief. | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
coppers will be answering questions this | :01:06. | :01:13. | |
Teachers were on strike across the region this week. Are they | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
London, does the London assembly have one arm tied behind its back? | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
All of that to come. And the Home Office minister sacked by Nick | :01:28. | :01:36. | |
Clegg, who says his party is like a wonky shopping trolley, which keeps | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
veering off to the left. He will join us live at noon. With me to | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
tweeting throughout the programme, using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
day of the Scottish national party conference in Perth. We have | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
discovered that Alex Salmond has been on the same diet as Beyonce. | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
The SNP leader compared his attempts to lose weight with the campaign for | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
independence - lots achieved so far, 20 more to do. In a moment, I will | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
be joined by the deputy leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
they report on the independence campaign. September 18 2014, the | :02:22. | :02:32. | |
date of destiny for Scotland, the day when these campaigners hope its | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
people will decide to vote yes for independence. In a recent poll, only | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
14% said they knew enough to vote either way. That is unlikely to | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
change any time soon. I think the Scottish people will be going to the | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
polls next year still not knowing an awful lot of stuff which is | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
important, because the outcome, in terms of taxation, debt, exactly | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
what will happen to the allocation of assets between the two countries, | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
will come about as a result of negotiation between a Scottish | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
government and the UK Government. That is not stuff which will be | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
known year. At the moment, polls suggest Scotland will decide to | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
remain within the UK. A recent survey found that 44% of those | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
questioned planned to vote no, 5% yes. But interestingly, the | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
undecideds were at 31%, suggesting that Alex Salmond's task might be | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
tough but not impossible. There are a number of reasons which make a | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
vanilla campaign a good idea. It does not put off cautious voters, it | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
allows for people to imagine their own version of what independence | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
will be like, and crucially, it allows for the yes campaign to take | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
advantage of any mistakes by the no campaign. In other words, the yes | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
campaign are not out there with big ideas, they are just waiting for the | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
no campaign to trip up. What we do know is that whatever happens next | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
September, Scotland will be getting more power. From 2016, a separate | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
income tax regime will come into force, giving the Scottish | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
Parliament control over billions of pounds of revenue. What we do not | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
know yet is how the alternative would pan out. There are issues | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
which would be raised by independence, issues about how the | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
national debt is allocated, what the currency will look like, how an | :04:25. | :04:26. | |
independent Scotland would balance the books, because it would have a | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
bigger job to do, even down the Whitehall government has to do. | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
Those are really big issues, which a Scottish government would have to | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
face, on top of whatever negotiation it had to have with the UK | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
Government. The Scottish government's White Paper on | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
independence, two to be published within weeks, should fill in some of | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
the banks. But how Scotland votes in September may yet be determined by | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
what it feels rather than what it knows. And joining me from Perth is | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
Scotland's Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
said, if this referendum fails, it will fail on the basis that people | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
put their British identity ahead of their Scottish identity, so we have | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
got to attack on the British identity - what does he mean? Gordon | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
Wilson is a very respected, much loved former leader of the SNP. My | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
view is that I do not think the independence referendum is really | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
about identity. I am secure and proud of my Scottish identity, but | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
this is a decision about where power best lies. Do decision-making powers | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
best lie here in Scotland, with a government which is directly | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
accountable to the people of Scotland, or does it best lie in | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
Westminster, with governments which, very often, people in Scotland do | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
not vote for? That is the issue at the heart of the campaign. Let me | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
just clarify, you do not agree with him, that you need to go on the | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
attack with regard to the British identity of Scottish people? No I | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
do not think we are required to attack British identity. It is | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
absolutely compatible for somebody to feel a sense of British identity | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
but still support Scottish independence, because Scottish | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
independence is about a transfer of power. It is about good government, | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
accountable government, ensuring that decisions are taking here in | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
Scotland, by people who have got the biggest stake in getting those | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
decisions right. I represent a constituency in the south side of | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
Glasgow, and if you speak to many people in my constituency, if you | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
ask them their national identity, many of them would say Irish, | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many of them will vote yes next year | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
because they understand the issue at stake, which is the issue of where | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
decisions are best taken. It looks like you are changing tack ex-, you | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
have realised the softly softly approach, of saying that actually, | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
nothing much will change, we will still have the Queen, the currency, | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
and all the rest of it, is moving over towards voting for a left-wing | :07:17. | :07:24. | |
future for Scotland... Well, I know that what we are doing is pointing | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
out is pointing out the choice between two futures. If we vote yes, | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
we take our own future into our own hands. We make sure that for ever | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
after, we have governments which will be in demented policies which | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
we have voted for. If we do not become independent, then we continue | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
to run the risk of having governments not only that we do not | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
vote for, but often, that Scotland rejects. We are seeing the | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
dismantling of our system of social security. There are politicians in | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
all of the UK parties who are itching to cut Scotland's share of | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
spending. So Scotland faces a choice of two futures, and it is right to | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
point out the positive consequences of voting yes, but also the | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
consequences of voting no. But you are promising to reverse benefit | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
cuts and increase the minimum wage. You would renationalise the Royal | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
Mail, though how you would do that nobody knows. You are promising to | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
cut energy bills. These are the kind of promises that parties make in a | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
general election campaign, not in a once in 300 years extra stench or | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
choice. Is the future of Scotland really going to be decided on the | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
size of the minimum wage? -- existential choice. A yes vote would | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
be about bringing decision-making powers home, but we are also setting | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
out some of the things an SNP government would do, if elected A | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
decision on what the first government of an independent | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
Scotland would be would not be taken in the referendum, that decision | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
would be taken in the 2016 election. And all of the parties will put | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
forward their offers to the electorate. We are setting out some | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
of the things which we think it is important to be prioritised. These | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
are things which have a lot of support in Scotland. We see the pain | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
being felt by people because of the rising cost of energy bills, there | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
is widespread opposition to some of the welfare cuts. So, we are setting | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
out the options which are open to Scotland, but only open to Scotland | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
if we have the powers of independence. Given that you seem to | :09:40. | :09:47. | |
be promising aid permanent socialist near Varna, if Scotland is | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
independent, if you are right of centre in Scotland, and I understand | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
that is a minority pursuit where you are, but it would be a big mistake | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
to vote for independence, in that case, wouldn't it? No, because the | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
whole point of independence is that people get the country they want, | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
and the government a vote for. So, right of centre people should not | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
vote for independence? No, because people who are of that political | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
persuasion in Scotland get the opportunity to vote for parties | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
which represent that persuasion and if they can persuade a majority to | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
vote likewise, then they will get a government which reflects that. That | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
is the essence of independence. Right now, we have a Westminster | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
government which most people in Scotland rejected at the last | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
general election. That is hardly democratic. It is right and proper | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
that the SNP, as the current government, points out the | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
opportunities that would be opening up. Can I just clarify one thing, | :10:46. | :11:01. | |
when we spoke on The Daily Politics earlier last week, you made it clear | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
to me that Alex Salmond, we know he wants to debate with David Cameron, | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
but you made it clear to me that he would debate with Alistair Darling | :11:13. | :11:22. | |
as well, and Mr Carmichael... He made it clear yesterday. Well, he | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
said to the BBC this morning that he would only debate with these people | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
after he had had a debate with Mr Cameron, so who is right? I was | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
making the point last week, and Alex Salmond was making it yesterday and | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
this morning - let's have that agreement by David Cameron to come | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
and debate with Alex Salmond, and then Alex Salmond, just like me | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
will debate with allcomers. So if he does not get the David Cameron | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
debate, then he will not do the others, is that right? Let's focus | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
on is wading David Cameron to do the right thing. So, in other words he | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
will not debate, yes or no? Members of the SNP government... We know | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
that, but what about Alex Salmond? He said yesterday, we will debate | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
with all sorts of people, including the people you have spoken about, | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
but David Cameron should not be let off the hook just putting aside the | :12:21. | :12:38. | |
independence issue, energy prices are now even playing into the SNP, | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
so every political party has to do something about energy prices. Yes, | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
it is clearly it is interesting is the difference between the SNP and | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
the Labour approach. Ed Miliband electrified the party conference | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
season when he said he would freeze energy prices for 20 months, | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
seemingly having an amazing control over the energy market, where we | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
know that essentially what pushes prices up the wholesale prices on | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
world market. What Nicola Sturgeon is talking about is actually saying, | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
this amount is added to your bills for green levies, and we are going | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
to take them off your bills and they will be paid out of general taxation | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
in an independent Scotland. That is a credible government, making a | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
credible case, very different to what Labour is saying, although | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
playing to the same agenda. So, Labour has got a populist policy, | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
the SNP has also got a populist policy, the one group of people that | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
do not have a decent response to this is the coalition? Exactly. What | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
the SNP also have is a magic money pot, so that speech yesterday, you | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
are right, it was very left wing, social democratic, but there was | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
none of the icing like Labour has been talking about, with fiscal | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
responsibility. I think that is the difference between the two. We know | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
what the Tories would really like to do, all of these green levies which | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
were put on our bills in the good times, when they were going to be | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
the greenest party ever, the Tories would like to say, let's just wipe | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
out some of them, put the rest on to some general government spending, | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
but they have a problem, which is in the Department of Energy and Climate | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
Change. Not only that, they really are stuck now. But there is | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
something in the free schools debate this morning, the parties are now | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
determined to send a message to their potential voters at the next | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
election, that they are trying to fight their coalition partners. Do | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
not expected any change in coalition policy or free schools policy before | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
the election, but we can expect to hear the parties try to pretend that | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
they are taking on their coalition partners. Mr Clegg has said, we | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
would put this free schools policy into our manifesto, so is it not | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
possible that the Tories will say, if you give us an overall majority, | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
we will cut your electricity bill because we will get rid of these | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
green levies? I think that is entirely possible. The Tories know | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
that they are stuck on this, they do not have a response to Ed Miliband. | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
How much should ministers in Whitehall medal in local decisions | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
across England? In opposition, David Cameron said he wanted a fundamental | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
shift of power from Whitehall to local people. He said, when one size | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
fits all solution is... Eric Pickles described it as "an | :15:41. | :16:02. | |
historic shift of power". But the Communitites and Local Government | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
Secretary can't stop meddling. In the past few months Mr Pickles has | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
tried to ban councils from using CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
motorists... Told councils how to act quicker to shut down illegal | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
travellers' sites... Criticised councils who want to raise council | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
tax... Insisted councils release land to residents hoping to build | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
their own property... And stated new homes should have a special built in | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
bin storage section. It seems not a week goes by without a policy | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
announcement from the hyper active Mr Pickles. So is the government | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
still committed to localism, or is it all about centralism now? | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
And Communities Secretary Eric Pickles joins me now for the Sunday | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
Interview. Welcome. Nice to be here. You said | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
in July you were going to give town halls the power to wreak their local | :17:04. | :17:13. | |
magic. So why issue diktats from Westminster? It is not about giving | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
power to local councils, it is going beyond that to local people. If | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
local councils refuse to open up their books, we have to go straight | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
to local people. You have attacked councillors using so-called spy | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
cameras to enforce parking rules. Why is that your business? Because | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
there is an injustice taking place. You cannot use fines to raise money | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
and that is plainly happening. If you get yourself a ticket from a | :17:51. | :17:58. | |
CCTV, it could be days or weeks before that lands on your doorstep | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
and you have virtually no possibility to be able to defend | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
yourself. But just leave it to people to vote out the council then. | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
We are trying to enforce the law and it clearly states that you cannot | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
use parking fines in order to fund general rate. So why are you not | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
taking them to court if they are breaking the law? There have been a | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
number of court cases taken by local residents. I am there to stand by | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
local residents. Your even trying to micromanage, allowing motorist s to | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
park for 15 minutes in local high street. Why is that your business? | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
I'm trying to ensure that local authorities understand the | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
importance of the town centre. If you look at all opinion polls, right | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
now there is a five-minute leeway but there are many cases of people | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
being jumped on by parking officials for quite trivial things. It is | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
about saying, surely I can go and get a pint of milk. But a party that | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
dines out on localism, that is a matter for local people, not the men | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
in Whitehall. I have to be on the side of local people. That person | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
who wants to go and get a pint of milk. Ultimately it is a matter for | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
them. It is a matter for the council. But a little bit of | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
criticism is not a bad thing. You have now declared war on the wheelie | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
bin and suggested that new homes should have built in storage | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
sections. You just cannot help meddling! I suppose that is | :19:52. | :20:04. | |
possible. You are a meddler! I am in charge of building regulations and | :20:05. | :20:12. | |
planning. So I may have some responsibility there. Another one, | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
interfering in local planning decisions. A couple of places, you | :20:19. | :20:28. | |
ruled in favour of developers. They want to build over 200 houses | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
against the wishes of the parish and district councils. The local MP said | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
the Secretary of State's decision runs roughshod over any concept of | :20:42. | :20:49. | |
localism. Now I have to be a blushing violet because of course | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
this is still potentially subject to judicial review. I have to act | :20:54. | :21:08. | |
properly. And Apple went is entitled to justice. -- an applicant. A local | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
authority has a duty to ensure that is adequate housing for people in | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
their area. This was not a decision that I took as a personal decision, | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
it was on the advice of an inspector. But you contradict what | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
David Cameron himself said in 2 12, he spoke about a vision where we | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
give communities much more say and local control. People in villages | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
fear big housing estates being plonked from above. You have just | :21:45. | :21:53. | |
done exactly that. After a proper quasi judicial enquiry. What we have | :21:54. | :22:02. | |
is planning framework which local people can decide where it goes But | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
they cannot say, nothing here. They have to have a five-year housing | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
supply. Previous to this government decided exactly where houses would | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
go, now local people can take the lead. Anna Silbury said because of | :22:19. | :22:26. | |
the way your department rules, local authorities now have no alternative | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
but to agree development on green belt land. I do not accept that I | :22:32. | :22:41. | |
think around Nottingham there are particular problems with regards to | :22:42. | :22:49. | |
the green belt. The matter has been referred back. | :22:50. | :23:00. | |
the green belt. The matter has been want to see development on the green | :23:01. | :23:00. | |
belt but on Brownfield site. We want to see underused land. But you have | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
to remember why we have the green belt. Not | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
to remember why we have the green nice, it is their to prevent | :23:14. | :23:14. | |
conurbations bumping into one another. Your | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
conurbations bumping into one is vocal about the need to deal | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
what he calls the historic under provision of housing. Shelter says | :23:25. | :23:24. | |
we need 250,000 new homes per year. provision of housing. Shelter says | :23:25. | :23:36. | |
Houston statistics are getting there, but nowhere near that. - | :23:37. | :23:36. | |
housing. You cannot there, but nowhere near that. - | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
localism agenda as well as meeting housing demand. I do not accept | :23:40. | :23:49. | |
that. We inherited a position where the lowest level of building since | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
the 1920s was in place. But it has steadily improved. It does take a | :23:58. | :24:05. | |
while. You cannot have a localism agenda where people call the shots | :24:06. | :24:07. | |
on housing as well as meeting the housing demand. People have a duty | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
to ensure that future generations have somewhere to live. You cannot | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
pull up the drawbridge. There is nothing incompatible between that | :24:20. | :24:26. | |
and localism. Because someone has to be the voice of those people who are | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
going to live there and to make sure there is the proper amount. Plans | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
now exist for more than 150,000 homes to be built on protected land, | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
including the green belt. That will mean riding over local concerns | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
Each application will be taken on its own merits. To suggest that | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
there is an assault on the green belt is as far from the truth as you | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell get his job back if the years | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
exonerated? I would be honoured to sit with Andrew Mitchell in the | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
Cabinet. I have always believed his version. But it is a matter for the | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
Prime Minister who he has in government. He would have no problem | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
in seeing him back in Cabinet? Absolutely not. Your mother answered | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
Vulcan junior minister Nick balls said about the Royal Charter for the | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
press, there's nothing we have done that troubles me as much as this. Is | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
that your view? It is not. I accept the compromise agreement put | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
together. If the press want to have an additional protection that the | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
Royal Charter offers, then they can move into the system. But if they | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
want to continue independently that is acceptable to me. But you | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
previously echoed Thomas Jefferson, you said for a free society to | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
operate the river of a free press has to flow without restriction | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
That is what I said at the time We had to find a compromise. And that | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
seems to me to be a better compromise. Let me just show you | :26:19. | :26:26. | |
this little montage of pictures that we have. I could not be happier | :26:27. | :26:38. | |
Then you are in the Desert and there you are in San Francisco. Then you | :26:39. | :26:50. | |
are in the casino. That is my personal favourite. These students | :26:51. | :27:01. | |
took a cardboard cutout of you and took it round the world with them. | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
Did you ever think you would become a student icon? I always felt | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
secretly that that might happen one day. But it came earlier in my | :27:11. | :27:19. | |
career than I thought! Why would they do that? I think they thought I | :27:20. | :27:27. | |
could do with a bit of an airing! I went to Norfolk earlier, but that | :27:28. | :27:37. | |
looks better. Thank you. On Wednesday senior police folk | :27:38. | :27:39. | |
including chief constables, will be questioned by MPs about what's | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
become known as Plebgate. That's the incident in Downing Street last year | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
which led to the resignation of the government chief whip Andrew | :27:48. | :27:49. | |
Mitchell. Last week the Independent Police Complaints Commission | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
questioned the "honesty and integrity" of police officers who | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
met Mr Mitchell following the row. So do scandals like this affect | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
public trust in the police? Here's Adam Fleming. | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
It's a story of politics, the police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
Mitchell, but an MP's researcher called Alex Bryce and his partner | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
Iain Feis. It started on a summer night in | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
2011. They'd been in Parliament After a few words with a police | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
officer, Ian was wrestled to the ground. Alex came to have a look and | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
the same thing happened to him. Both were arrested and charged. These | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
pictures emerged on day one of their trial. A trial that was halted | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
because the police version of events just didn't match the footage. A lot | :28:41. | :28:49. | |
of people with incidence like this which we experienced, people think | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
there is no smoke without fire. So when we said we did nothing wrong, | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
people would think police just would not do that. There is always that | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
underlying view that some people have. I think that has been | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
challenged and people who know us believe that. This year the Met | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
apologised and paid compensation. And it's led to an unlikely sort of | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
friendship. When the truth came out about the Andrew Mitchell story I | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
actually sent him an e-mail to congratulate him about the truth | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
coming out. He did send a reply acknowledging that. So where are we | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
with THAT saga? Remember last September? Andrew Mitchell had a row | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
with police at the gates of Downing Street about his bike. He lost his | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
job as chief whip after accusations he called the officers plebs. That, | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
he's always denied. This week the police watchdog the IPCC suggested | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
that three officers may have lied about a meeting with him at the | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
height of the scandal. Add that to the charge sheet of cases that | :29:57. | :29:58. | |
haven't exactly flattered the police. Like the revelation of a | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
cover up over Hillsborough. The prosecution of an officer from the | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson during protests in 2009. Along with | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
news that undercover officers were told to smear the family of Stephen | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
Lawrence. During Thursday's protest by teachers in Westminster the | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
police operation was really, really relaxed. And recent scandals have | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
done nothing to affect society's view of the boys and girls in blue - | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of the public say they trust the | :30:32. | :30:39. | |
police. And that's not budged since pollsters started measuring it 0 | :30:40. | :30:40. | |
years ago. Of course, in Britain, crime is | :30:41. | :30:52. | |
down, so the perception might be that the police is doing a good | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
job. And the rank-and-file recently seamed pretty chipper at this awards | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
ceremony. Is it a good time to be a police officer? It is a good time. | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
Despite all of the headlines? Still a good time. But speak to officers | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
privately, and they say Plebgate is affecting how the public see them. | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
Some of them also think politicians, the Tories especially, | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
are enjoying that a little too much. Adam Fleming reporting there. Going | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
head-to-head on this issue of trust in the police, a Sunday Mirror | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
columnist and Peter Kirkham, former chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let | :31:35. | :31:42. | |
me come to you first. Plebgate, the cover-ups over John Charles De | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson, the industrial deception over | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Hillsborough, why is the culture of deceit so prevalent in the police? I | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
do not agree there is a cultural deceit. These are all individual | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
incidents which raise individual issues. I would suggest that your | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
short headline summarising each of them has taken the most negative | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
view of it. How can you be positive about the police's behaviour over | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
Hillsborough? It remains to be seen with the inquiry but we are probably | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
talking about a handful of senior officers, dealing with the | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies being doctored by the police. Well, | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
those testimonies were true to start with, so the officers have told the | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
truth, and they have been changed for some reason. By the police. By | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
the police all lawyers we have got this thing that the police conflates | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
everything. There are 43 forces there is ACPO, there is the College | :32:50. | :32:58. | |
Of Policing... People say it was a handful of police officers, it | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
wasn't, it was six senior police officers who were alleged to have | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
doctored 106 D4 statements. Even today we are hearing that more than | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
1000 officers are yet to be spoken to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
pretend that Hillsborough, and some of these examples, are the exception | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
rather than the rule? What is the evidence that this is now prevalent | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
in our police? I think there is a lot of evidence, and Plebgate is | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
probably the thing which has clinched it. The public want to | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
know, how deep does this girl? The audacity of a group of policemen who | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
think they can set up a Cabinet minister. Five of those who were | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
arrested and bailed still have not been charged. One of those officers | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
actually wrote an e-mail pretending to be a member of the public. I do | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
not see what the problem is in prosecuting them for that. Taking | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
Plebgate, there are loads of different bits of that incident | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
There is the officers on duty in Downing Street, the issue of who | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
leaked the story to the Sun, there are the officers who claim to have | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
been there who would appear not to have been there, and then we have | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
got the West Midlands meeting issue, which has sort of been | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
resolved this week. There has been misconduct. But at a lower level. | :34:18. | :34:26. | |
But it is the audacity of an organisation which thinks it can | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
take on an elected minister and destroy him for their own political | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
purposes, at a time when the Government are cutting please pay, | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
when they are freezing their pensions and reducing their numbers. | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
It looks very much to all of us the public, that the police are at war | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
with the government, and they are going to do anything they can to | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
discredit the Government. The police would have every reason to be at war | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
with the Government, because there if there is a crisis of trust.. But | :34:55. | :35:03. | |
it looks like they fitted up a Cabinet minister. That remains to be | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
seen, it is being investigated. We know that those Birmingham officers, | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
they totally misrepresented to, if not lied outright, about what was | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
said. Again, that is a misrepresentation of what happened. | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
If you actually go and look at what is said, it is plain from the | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
context, they were saying, he has told us nothing new. But he had in | :35:27. | :35:35. | |
the transcript, it said he hadn't. He would not admit he had used the | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
word pleb. He apologised profusely, he said it would never happen again, | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
he said many things that he had not said before. I agree, which is | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
presumably... Thereon many police forces in this country, they have | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
one of the toughest jobs in the land, they end up getting involved | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
in almost anything which happens in society, and there are obviously a | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
number of difficult examples, but what is the evidence that it is out | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
of hand, other than just several bad apples? This bad apples argument, we | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
have some amazing police people, thank God, but it is because of | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
those that we have to root out the bad ones, the ones that are possibly | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
corrupt. From where most of us are standing, the ones who are being | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
accused of being corrupt, there does not seem to be any process to deal | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
with these people. The trouble with a rotten apple is that it spreads. | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
It is not fair on the good cops to be tainted by this, and I think the | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
police force, as an institution... For all of us, we have to respect | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
the police. There is a problem, is there not? People do worry that if | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
you can fit up a Cabinet minister, you can fit up anybody... . I would | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
disagree that anybody has proved that anybody has been fitted up. We | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
are yet to hear what happened at the gates of Downing Street. But what we | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
do know about the gates of Downing Street is that we were told by the | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
police officers that passers-by had heard this incredible row, where | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
Mitchell's file went was bullied. That is not true... . They did not | :37:20. | :37:31. | |
use those words, actually. All right, but it is clear that the | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
Police Federation jumped on this as a politically motivated campaign... | :37:38. | :37:45. | |
I have always said that politics should be kept out of policing. The | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
federation, they cannot go on strike, but this was to covertly | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
political, so I criticise them for that. Do we need a better way of | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
monitoring the police? We need a more competent and properly | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
resourced Independent police commission. But if you look at those | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
Bravery Awards, every police officer, every year, who acts with | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
bravery... That is the police force we want to believe in. That is the | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
police force you have got. We will leave it there. Coming up in just | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
over 20 minutes, I will be speaking to former Lib Minister Jeremy | :38:28. | :38:28. | |
Browne. And in The Week Ahead, As teachers strike over changes to | :38:29. | :38:51. | |
their pensions and conditions of service are they being a responsible | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
for making a fair protest over legitimate grievances? | :38:55. | :39:08. | |
China week on the BBC. A lot about the need to export. Lots of imports | :39:09. | :39:22. | |
in Southampton. Are we doing enough to look outside of our own country? | :39:23. | :39:36. | |
This export market is so important. Is it a culture change or does it | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
need changes in regulation? A little bit of both. Particularly in the | :39:41. | :39:55. | |
luxury goods market. There is great potential for our manufacturers and | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
innovators to grab a piece of that market. Is being part of the global | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
market more important than the European Union? Not more important, | :40:06. | :40:13. | |
but we have to be part of these markets as well. We are making | :40:14. | :40:28. | |
hovercraft in Southhampton that we are selling to the Indian Navy. | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
These growing opportunities are clear our future lies. | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
The CDs of regional strikes right the NASUWT and the NUT has hit our | :40:42. | :40:50. | |
region. Thousands of children got an unexpected day of class and parents | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
had childcare problems. We are joined by the general | :40:58. | :41:07. | |
secretary of the NUT in Portsmouth. Were teachers setting a good example | :41:08. | :41:14. | |
to parents and pupils? It is a last resort and we regret the | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
inconvenience. We have tried to talk to the government but they are not | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
listening. Nurses and police officers do not own tools. Police | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
officers are not allowed to. Nurses do. It does seem to be in the | :41:34. | :41:42. | |
teachers culture. We have been under constant attack. We are not the most | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
popular people in society as far as the government and the press is | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
concerned. But a lot of parents support us. We have asked Michael | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
Gove for the things that could have halted the action. They did halt the | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
action in Wales because they opened up stocks. The did not happen here. | :42:03. | :42:10. | |
This Michael Gove the vehicles to negotiate with? We asked for three | :42:11. | :42:19. | |
things. The first thing was to stop the smashing up of pay and | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
conditions across the country and to enter into proper docs and to have | :42:23. | :42:33. | |
at financial review. Stopping the pay policy roll out. There was | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
national pay across the country. That has been delegated to | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
individual schools. Michael Gove would say this is catching up. | :42:47. | :43:01. | |
Companies have national pay. Is this not really political what you are | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
doing? It is opposition to the general policy. Education has always | :43:09. | :43:24. | |
been a political football. At this point in time terms and conditions | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
are being broken. Most teachers are more concerned about their | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
workloads. We have not tried to make its political. I do not want to go | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
on strike. I would rather be teaching. But if teachers do not | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
make a stand we will not have a profession. During the week you said | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
teachers should have done more to explain this. Michael Gove could | :43:55. | :44:04. | |
have avoided this if he had had the discussions asked for. More could | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
have been done to explain to parents. The unions want to win any | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
of the things they are asking for it will be because parents support | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
them. Who wants their child to be supported by a teacher who is | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
exhausted and demoralised because of the way their pay is being handled? | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
That there was too little effort to get out and talk to parents. I took | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
a straw poll yesterday. I did not find anybody who has been invited | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
into the school or talked to by teachers to explain what it is | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
about. That is what I regret. It could have been an opportunity to | :44:49. | :44:57. | |
get evens onside by the unions. Where do you think parents are with | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
this? Parents feel strongly that they do not understand the objection | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
to performance`related pay. We have rallied teachers doing fantastic | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
work. In my constituency there are fantastic teachers why should they | :45:14. | :45:24. | |
not be rewarded? There is only a limited amount of money. You should | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
not get more just because you have been there for longer. Where is the | :45:31. | :45:40. | |
incentive? If your child is in the class of 30 share who feels that | :45:41. | :45:48. | |
they have not been treated fairly you will not have the most motivated | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
teacher. As parents we have an interest in having the entire | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
teaching workforce as motivated as possible. You want to enable the | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
best teachers to succeed, but you need to be careful about how you do | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
it. I want the best possible teachers to be teaching my children. | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
I do not want teachers to feel they will only get a increases as a | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
result of having worked there longer. There's Michael Gove going | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
about this there right way? Teachers do not have a bad deal. They start | :46:29. | :46:35. | |
off on higher pay and the paper addresses more rapidly than most | :46:36. | :46:43. | |
other developed nations. We are talking about a six point bass keel. | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
Performance`related pay is destructive. Teachers are not so | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
concerned about performance`related pay. It is the workload and | :46:56. | :47:07. | |
continuing until 68. Most people know that teachers work together as | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
a community. Are you closer to settling this as a result of the | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
strike? We are not closer to settling but we are closer to | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
convincing parents what their concerns are. ?61 million is what | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
Oxford council says it must save from it budget. | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
As our political water reports there is a choice between cutting services | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
or maybe finding ways to get more money out of residents. | :47:39. | :47:49. | |
With 61 million to find Oxfordshire County Council is on the hunt for | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
moneymaking opportunities. It hopes raising more cash will mean taking | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
less a way from services. We are looking across all the services that | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
we offer and see where we can find more money. Either circumstances | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
where we can generate more income to help the financial situation. But | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
moneymaking ideas were not at the top of the public's made at meetings | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
this week where talks of possible cuts dominated. | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
We decided to do and scientific market test. | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
The council says it is going to look at always it can find of generating | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
more cash. That could be from the smallest things such as raising | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
library fines, at two charging more to film on the public highway. It | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
could let out County Hall for weddings. More enforcement cameras | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
in bus lanes. On top of that that want us to come up with suggestions | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
about what we might pay more for. I definitely should a more. There is | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
nothing that I like more than writing a cheque to the council. Who | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
would not want to pay a bigger fine? Of course nobody said these things. | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
Here is what they really said. I do not think Oxfordshire County Council | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
needs lessons from the public on how to overcharge them. They are very | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
good at that already. I am on a limited budget. It is hard to pay | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
more than what you are already paying. The council says it has | :49:34. | :49:42. | |
already frozen pay and cap the number of managers by 40%. Some of | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
the ideas have come in such as crowd funding services. If you ask people | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
to pay more for services you will get a lukewarm response. The easiest | :49:54. | :50:01. | |
way for the council to make more money would be to put council tax up | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
but that cannot do that by more than 2% without a referendum and that is | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
no guarantee anyone would vote for a higher price. | :50:11. | :50:19. | |
Eric Pickles has told councils they should look at using money from | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
their reserves. Good Oxfordshire dip into some of the 18 million it has | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
been rainy day money? We are looking at income generation. Once you have | :50:33. | :50:41. | |
sourced the silverware that is it. Reserves were not the only | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
suggestion from Eric Pickles. Last year he published a list of 50 ways | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
to save. It included an idea that Oxfordshire hopes will be a | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
moneyspinner. Some authorities are running a trade and services model. | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
They offer services to other County Council. They make a profit and akin | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
to the authority. Can we replicate that year? Selling council services | :51:06. | :51:14. | |
to other councils. That is something taxpayers may find is more to their | :51:15. | :51:23. | |
taste. Thank you to the market traders | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
dear. What do the public think about these cats? If you are affected by a | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
reduction you are probably upset about it. The BBC survey carried out | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
a couple of weeks ago showed that six out of ten people recognised | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
that their services from their local council were either the same or | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
better despite all the cuts that had been made. I have the survey here. | :51:48. | :51:57. | |
Then collect and, parks, libraries, are going all right. The police and | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
road maintenance is worse. This is to do with overall impressions. This | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
does not reflect where money has been taken out. There are still | :52:11. | :52:18. | |
people being made redundant and services that will suffer. People | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
are directly affected by that. The closure of child centres. People are | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
going to be angry. What people want to see from their council is that | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
they are doing everything they can and many are two capitals cost. To | :52:33. | :52:48. | |
share rules where possible. Like any business they look at ways the | :52:49. | :52:54. | |
services can be streamlined. We only have a certain pot of money. This | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
country is coming out of a massive deficit. It is only fair that we ask | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
people what they want to see provided. I topped to you about this | :53:04. | :53:11. | |
when Labour was in government. You knew there were efficiencies needed | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
and you did not get them. We made huge efficiency savings that there | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
were other ones to be made. This is to do partly with technology. We | :53:24. | :53:35. | |
have had three years now. The second year there was drawing on real | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
efficiencies. The third year you saw services cat that were not used by | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
many people. Things like youth clubs. What you are seeing in | :53:44. | :53:51. | |
Oxfordshire is going to the heart of services. Far more people are | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
noticing. That's why people are becoming more angry about it. The | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
tragedy about this is there is no doubt there were going to be cuts. | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
Because the government went so far and so fast we will not solve the | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
deficits by the next election and there still will be more cuts. It is | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
difficult to see how we get through that. The Prime Minister was asked | :54:18. | :54:26. | |
on Wednesday about the growth of food banks. He gave his response | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
about numbers are rising more under the last government figures from the | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
biggest provider of food banks says that the number of people getting | :54:38. | :54:46. | |
food arsenals is rising. Now Oxfam is contributing funds to deal with | :54:47. | :54:53. | |
poverty in the UK. `` food banks is rising. | :54:54. | :55:02. | |
Do we have the problems of developing countries? No. But what | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
we are seeing is the nature of poverty in this country is changing. | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
We have been tackling poverty in this country for 17 years. Food | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
banks is something we have done over the last three years as we have seen | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
more people becoming more desperate. We have gone from a situation where | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
people needed long`term family and skills support to people being in a | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
situation where they cannot put food on our plate for their families. We | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
still have the same level of benefits in this country. We are not | :55:39. | :55:49. | |
claiming benefits. Benefits in real terms are falling and have been | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
falling for a while. We think there are long`term factors that have led | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
to this problem. The longer term ones are people in work where the | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
real level of wages has been falling for a long time. People have less | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
put aside for Eirene D. If a crisis hits they can get into trouble. If | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
you put that alongside the rising costs of food and housing then | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
people are put in our fragile position. For those on benefit | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
supplementing low wages then the problems are added to by recent | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
benefits changes. You have got a combination of the income squeeze | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
that people have suffered with more immediate changes to the Emirates. | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
It is pushing many people over the edge. Charities like Oxfam and the | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
Red Cross to the associates with disasters abroad think this is on | :56:49. | :56:56. | |
the scale of priorities? When we see individual situations that people | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
are in that they literally feed themselves. People are even going to | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
food banks and turning down food that needs heating up because they | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
have turned off their cookers at home. That is a serious situation. | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
We are not talking about people that are homeless. By definition people | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
who go to a food bank have somewhere to eat it. | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
This is an appalling indictment on your government. Every week the | :57:27. | :57:35. | |
Prime Minister brushes it away. I do not think the prime minister ever | :57:36. | :57:43. | |
does just cast it aside ten times more under Labour. It went up ten | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
times more under Labour. It is worse. If you look at the reasons, | :57:48. | :57:56. | |
one in five is for welfare changes, one in five is cost of living | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
changes. People need food banks were other reasons such as breakdown in | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
families, terrible debt problems. These are problems that have | :58:09. | :58:10. | |
occurred over many years, not just in the last two or three years. One | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
other thing I would say is that under this government people are | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
signposted to food banks in job centres. In the previous governments | :58:20. | :58:27. | |
there was a ban on job centres signposting people to food banks. | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
This is a problem that is a legacy of many years. You are in the same | :58:33. | :58:41. | |
denial as David Cameron. The tenfold increase is from a very small base. | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
The huge increase has happened since. 439 out of the last 40 months | :58:46. | :58:53. | |
living standards have. People fall through their net. In June somebody | :58:54. | :59:06. | |
really applied for DLA. Four months later a decision has not been taken. | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
They then decided to stop the benefits. She has asked for a review | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
and she will not hear a result until December. That will be eight months | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
without hundreds of pounds per month. This is because of the way | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
the benefits system has been changed. It is creating a huge chasm | :59:26. | :59:31. | |
in somebody's finances. These are problems that have been happening | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
ever since I got elected. They are a legacy of the previous government as | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
well. Oxfam would not be doing what they are doing if this deal of this | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
was unprecedented. Frankie. Now our round`up. | :59:48. | :00:02. | |
A new maternity unit and Accident and Emergency for Bournemouth has | :00:03. | :00:11. | |
been shelved after the Competition Commission ruled that a merger was | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
not the in the interests. The European Union says new routes | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
would be safer but unions lobbied against it in Brussels. | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
A seven mile yellow ribbon was wrapped around parts of the Sussex | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
countryside to symbolically protected from plans for a new town. | :00:35. | :00:43. | |
10,000 homes will be built. All the land would be built. Cycle hire | :00:44. | :00:55. | |
moved up a gear in Oxford. Should you get free parking at work? | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Eastleigh council is under fire after giving staff a payment of ?800 | :00:59. | :01:07. | |
per year when it closed a car park. They say they will get the ?800 back | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
because people will spend that money in the public car park so it all | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
comes back to the council. That is the Sunday Politics in the | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
South. Like you to our guests. Keep up with their local politics by | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
reading my blog. down immigration, but not in any way | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
which links in with this. Thank you to both of you for being my guests | :01:35. | :01:35. | |
today. Are the Lib Dems like a wonky | :01:36. | :01:50. | |
shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg kicking off over free schools? And | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
what about Boris and George's love bombing of China? All questions for | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
The Week Ahead. We are joined now by the former Home Office minister and | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this | :02:07. | :02:15. | |
key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in the ascendancy in your party, those | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
who would fear to the left, or those who would fear to the centre? The | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
point I was making in the interview that I gave to the times was that I | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
want us to be unambiguously and on up genetically -- and | :02:31. | :02:40. | |
unapologetically a Liberal party. I do not want us to be craving the | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
approval of columnists like Polly Toynbee. I do not want us to be a | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
pale imitation of the Labour Party. I think we should be proud and | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
unambiguously a authentic Liberal party. That is my ambition for the | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
party. If it is, as you put it, fearing to the left, then I think | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
that is a mistake, I think we should be on the liberal centre ground But | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
is it actually veering to the left, your party? I think there is a | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
danger when a party, or any organisation, feels that it is in a | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
difficult position, to look inwards, to look for reassuring | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
familiar policy positions. I do not want us to be the party which looks | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
inwards and speaks to the 9% of people who are minded to support us | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
already. I want us to look outwards and speak to the 91% of the | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
population, for whom I think we have got a good story to tell about the | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
contribution we have made to getting the deficit down, cutting crime | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
keeping interest rates low, and also, distinctive Liberal Democrat | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
policies for example on income tax and pupil premiums. If we look like | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
we are a party which is uneasy and ambivalent about our role in | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
government, people will not give us credit for the successes of the | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
government, and we will not be able to claim the authorship which we | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
should be able to claim for our policies excesses in government I | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
want us to be confident, outward looking, and authentically liberal. | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
If we are that, people real sense that and they will respond | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
positively. Does that not therefore make it rather strange that Nick | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
Craig should choose to distance himself from the coalition's schools | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
policy? Well, I support free schools, I think they are a liberal | :04:32. | :04:41. | |
policy. Education is a fascinating area, so let's explore it a bit We | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
have had two very significant and troubling reports in the last | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, saying that social mobility has | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
stalled in this country, in other words, what your parents do is a | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
reliable guide to how you will get on in life and the other saying that | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
Britain lags behind our competitors, the other | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
industrialised countries, in terms of the educational attainment of | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
15-year-olds. Both of those are worrying. We have a scandalous | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
situation in this country where two thirds of children from | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds are failing to get five Grade A to Grade | :05:15. | :05:24. | |
C. Some get none at all. If we were the world leaders in education, we | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
could have an interesting conversation about how we are able | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
to maintain that position, but we are not. Whether there are good | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
things one less good things which have happened in our schools over | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
the last 30-40 years, we really need to raise our game and stop letting | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
young people down who need a good quality education in order to | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
realise their full potential in life. It sounds like you do not | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
share Mr Clegg's designations? I think there are two big dangers for | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
us as a party. I do not think we should be instinctively statist and | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
I do not think either we should be instinctively in favour of the | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
status quo. I want us to have a restless, radical, energetic, | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
liberal reforming instinct, which is about putting more power and | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
responsible at the end opportunity in the hands of individual people. | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
As I say, we look at the education system, of course there are good | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
teachers and good outcomes in some schools and for some pupils, | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
overall, our performance in this country is not good enough, so the | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
status quo has not been a successful stop I am interested in how we can | :06:32. | :06:43. | |
innovate. -- has not been a success. Are the Tories wooing you? Well I | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
do not know if that is the right word, I have been reported, and I | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
have set myself, that the Conservatives have, if you like | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
made some advances or generous suggestions to me, but I am a | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
liberal, and I am a Liberal Democrat. I have been a member of | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
the Lib Dems since the party was founded, I joined when I was 18 | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
years old. I have campaigned tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
for my entire adult life, so I am not about to go and join another | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
political party. I would turn this on its head, let me put it like | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
this, I think there are quite a few liberals in the other political | :07:30. | :07:31. | |
parties, people like Alan Milburn, who wrote a report on social | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
mobility, people like Nick Bowles in the Conservative Party. Our | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
ambition, as Liberal Democrats, should be to attract liberals from | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
other political parties, and no political party, to the Lib Dems. | :07:44. | :07:54. | |
Just briefly, have you suggested that the Tories do not run a | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
candidate against you in the next election? I have not suggested | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
anything of the sort. The Conservatives have to make their own | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
decisions about which candidates they select, and I will take on | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
whoever is select it from each of the political parties. Thank you for | :08:13. | :08:25. | |
joining us. There is a danger not from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
Clegg, in that, having been part of a coalition which has gone through | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
an enormous squeeze in living standards for three years, it did | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
not look like both was coming, it was being regarded overall as a | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
failure, but now, it may be turning the corner, so why would you then | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
start to disassociate yourself from the coalition's policies? Yes, the | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
danger for Nick Clegg is that he makes the Liberal Democrats looked | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
like visitors in a guesthouse, a guesthouse which is owned by the | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
Conservatives. As you say, they were there for the three difficult years, | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
and just at the moment when the economy seems to be coming right, | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
and we are getting some nice growth, they seek to distance themselves. It | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
is interesting that Jeremy Browne came out with the outrageously | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
disloyal statement that he supported free schools statement. That is a | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but on Thursday, of course, the Liberal | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
Democrat party was in favour of free schools, because in that statement | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
about the Al-Madinah school, David Laws made a passionate defence about | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
what Nick Clegg is now criticising, which is having on qualified | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
teachers. If things are now coming right, the big risk for the Liberal | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
Democrats always was that they would not get the credit anyway. Well if | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
they diss associate themselves like this, they definitely will not get | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
the credit. It depends which voters their opinion poll ratings are dire, | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it is less than that. So, where are | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
they going to get those voters from? They have not got those | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not Mission impossible, getting Labour | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
voters test surely the left of the Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
labour, not away from Labour? I wonder to what extent, and this | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
might be speculation, this might be organised and arranged, that Cameron | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
and Clegg both understand that they have groups of voters that they need | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
to get, so they need to send messages out to different groups, it | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
looks like a bit of a setup to me. Boris in China, along with boy | :10:40. | :10:50. | |
George - let's have a look... Who, according to JK Rowling, was Harry | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
Potter's first girlfriend? That s right, and she is Chinese overseas | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
student, is that not right at Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
it is right, she is actually from Scotland. It is not only London | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
which has a diverse society. Putting that to one side, we are inviting | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
the Chinese into finance our power stations, to run big banks in the | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
cities, we are giving out more visas to them, are we right to embrace the | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
Dragon? What worries me about the power stations then, it is 30% of | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
investment, and it reminds me a lot of PFI, the idea that you do not | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
want a huge investment on your balance sheet, but if somebody bails | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
out halfway through, we cannot stop with a half finished power station. | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
It is EDF, the French company, which will actually build it, and we will | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
be guaranteeing the debt for them. It is extraordinary that there has | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
been so little adverse comment after George Osborne and Boris's trip to | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
China, and is it now really the UK Government policy, to sell Britain | :12:04. | :12:13. | |
to the Chinese? There was a debate in government about this, as they | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
were getting ready for the trip and there will be at some point in the | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
next six months be a David Cameron trip to China. He has had to wait | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
three years because they were annoyed about him meeting the Dalai | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
llama. There were some people in the Foreign Office who were saying, | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
fine, but tread carefully. George Osborne's view is absolutely not, | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
get in there, I do not care about any of these problems, get stuck | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
in. I think he is storing up five years since the financial crisis, | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
Chinese banks are being given a special, light touch regulatory | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
regime. What could possibly go wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
prices have continued to dominate this week. We have got the EDF deal, | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
whereby we are going to be giving them twice the market rate for their | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
energy. But for the coalition, all eyes are on the GDP figures. The | :13:15. | :13:23. | |
expectation and hope is that the recovery will be stronger than the | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
figures have suggested so far, on which basis it can influence the | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
result of the next general election. The chief economist at the | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
Bank of England was saying on Twitter last week that the Bank of | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
England may now bring forward the assessment when it says, maybe we | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
are going to have to change monetary policy, if unemployment goes below | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
7%. And we know what that means interest rates. The Bank of England | :13:50. | :13:58. | |
on Twitter! That is it for today. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
on BBC Two. I will be back with prime Minster 's questions on | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
Wednesday, and of course, we will be back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
Sunday. | :14:08. | :14:14. |