07/05/2017 Sunday Politics South

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

The local election results made grim reading for Labour.

With just a month to go until the general election,

will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help

The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,

as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got

But is there still really all to play for?

And tonight we will find out who is the next

President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -

In the South... ended with a hack attack

How did the elections go where you are?

We'll have analysis of the results and live debate of what they might

potential impact in marginals next month. If Ukip support continues to

evaporate... And joining me for all of that,

three journalists ready to analyse the week's politics

with all the forensic focus of Diane Abbott

preparing for an interview, and all the relaxed,

slogan-free banter of Theresa May It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott

and Steve Richards. So, the Conservatives are promising,

if re-elected, to change mental health laws in England and Wales

to tackle discrimination, and they're promising 10,000 more

staff working in NHS mental health treatment in England by 2020 -

although how that's to be Here's Health Secretary

Jeremy Hunt speaking There is a lot of new

money going into it. In January, we said we were going

to put an extra ?1 billion Does this come from other parts

of the NHS, or is it No, it is new money

going into the NHS It's not just of course money,

it's having the people who deliver these jobs,

which is why we need Well, we're joined now from Norwich

by the Liberal Democrat health This weekend, they've launched

their own health announcement, promising a 1% rise on every income

tax band to fund the NHS. Do you welcome the Conservatives

putting mental health onto the campaign agenda in the way that they

have? I welcome it being on the campaign agenda but I do fear that

the announcement is built on thin air. You raised the issue at the

start about the 10,000 extra staff, and questions surrounding how it

would be paid for. There is no additional money on what they have

already announced for the NHS. We know it falls massively short on the

expectation of the funding gap which, by 2020, is likely to be

about 30 billion. That is not disputed now. Anyone outside of the

government, wherever you are on the political spectrum, knows the money

going in is simply not enough. So, rather like the claim that they

would add 5000 GPs to the workforce by 2020, that is not on target.

Latest figures show a fall in the number of GPs. They make these

claims, but I'm afraid they are without substance, unless they are

prepared to put money behind it. Your party's solution to the money

problem is to put a 1% percentage point on all of the bands of income

tax to raise more money 20-45. Is that unfair? Most pensioners who

consume 40% of NHS spending, but over 65s only pay about 20% of

income tax. Are you penalising the younger generations for the health

care of an older generation? It is the first step in what we are

describing as a 5-point recovery plan for the NHS and care system.

So, for what is available to us now, it seems to be the fairest way of

bringing in extra resources, income tax is progressive, and is based on

your ability to pay for your average British worker. It would be ?3 per

week which is the cost of less than two cups of coffee per week. In the

longer run, we say that by the end of the next Parliament, we would be

able to introduce a dedicated NHS and care tax. Based, probably,

around a reformed national insurance system, so it becomes a dedicated

NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the former permanent secretary of the

Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said clearly that this idea merits

further consideration which is the first time anyone for the Treasury

has bought into the idea of this. Let me ask you this. You say it is a

small amount of tax that people on average incomes will have to pay

extra. We are talking about people who have seen no real increases to

their income since 2007. They have been struggling to stand still in

terms of their own pay, but you are going to add to their tax, and as I

said earlier, most of the health care money will then go to

pensioners whose incomes have risen by 15%. I'm interested in the

fairness of this redistribution? Bearing in mind first of all,

Andrew, that the raising of the tax threshold that the Liberal Democrats

pushed through in the coalition increased the effective pay in your

pocket for basic rate taxpayers by about ?1000. We are talking about a

tiny fraction of that. I suppose that you do have to ask, all of us

in this country need to ask ourselves this question... Are we

prepared to pay, in terms of the average worker, about ?3 extra per

week to give us a guarantee that when our loved ones need that care,

in their hour of need, perhaps suspected cancer, that care will be

available for them? I have heard two cases recently brought my attention.

An elderly couple, the wife has a very bad hip. They could not allow

the weight to continue. She was told that she would need to wait 26

weeks, she was in acute pain. They then deduct paying ?20,000 for

private treatment to circumvent waiting time. They hated doing it,

because they did not want to jump the queue. But that is what is

increasingly happening. Sorry to interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make

very good points but we are short on time today. One final question, it

looks like you might have the chance to do any of this, I'm told the best

you can hope to do internally is to double the number of seats you have,

which would only take you to 18. Do you think that promising to raise

people's income tax, even those on average earnings, is a vote winner?

I think the people in this country are crying out for politicians to be

straight and tenet as it is. At the moment we heading towards a

Conservative landslide... -- tell it as it is. But do we want a 1-party

state? We are electing a government not only to deal with the crucial

Brexit negotiations, but oversee the stewardship of the NHS and funding

of our schools, all of these critical issues. We need an

effective opposition and with the Labour Party having taken itself off

stage, the Liberal Democrats need to provide an effective opposition.

Norman Lamb, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you.

Labour and Tories are anxious to stress the general election

result is not a foregone conclusion, whatever the polls say.

Order you just heard Norman Lamb say there that he thought the

Conservatives were heading for a landslide...

But did Thursday's dramatic set of local election results

in England, Scotland and Wales give us a better idea of how the country

Here's Emma Vardy with a behind-the-scenes look at how

Good morning, it's seven o'clock on Friday, May 5th...

The dawn of another results day. Anticipation hung in the air.

Early results from the local elections in England suggest

there's been a substantial swing from Labour to the Conservatives.

While the pros did their thing, I needed breakfast.

Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pinch a sausage.

The overnight counts had delivered successes for the Tories.

But with most councils only getting started,

there was plenty of action still to come.

It's not quite the night of Labour's nightmares.

There's enough mixed news in Wales, for example -

looks like they're about to hold Cardiff - that they'll try and put

But in really simple terms, four weeks from a general election,

the Tories are going forward and Labour are going backwards.

How does it compare being in here to doing the telly?

Huw, how do you prepare yourself for a long day of results, then?

We're not even on air yet, as you can see, and already

in Tory HQ this morning, there's a kind of, "Oh,

I'm scared this will make people think the election's just

I think leave it like that - perfect.

I want the Laura look. This is really good, isn't it?

Usually, we're in here for the Daily Politics.

But it's been transformed for the Election Results programme.

But hours went by without Ukip winning a single seat.

The joke going around Lincolnshire County Council today

from the Conservatives is that the Tories have eaten

We will rebrand and come back strong.

Morale, I think, is inevitably going to take a bit of a tumble.

Particularly if Theresa May starts backsliding on Brexit.

And then I think we will be totally reinvigorated.

There are a lot of good people in Ukip and I wouldn't

want to say anything unkind, but we all know it's over.

Ukip press officer. Difficult job.

Ukip weren't the only ones putting a brave face on it.

Labour were experiencing their own disaster day too,

losing hundreds of seats and seven councils.

If the result is what these results appear to indicate,

Can we have a quick word for the Sunday Politics?

A quick question for Sunday Politics - how are you feeling?

Downhearted or fired up for June? Fired up, absolutely fired up.

He's fired up. We're going to go out there...

We cannot go on with another five years of this.

How's it been for you today? Tiring.

It always is, but I love elections, I really enjoy them.

Yes, you know, obviously we're disappointed at some of the results,

it's been a mixed bag, but some opinion polls

and commentators predicted we'd be wiped out - we haven't.

As for the Lib Dems, not the resurgence they hoped for,

After a dead heat in Northumberland, the control of a whole council came

The section of England in which we had elections yesterday

was the section of England that was most likely to vote Leave.

When you go to sleep at night, do you just have election results

The answer is if that's still happening, I don't get to sleep.

There we go. Maybe practice some yoga...

Thank you very much but I have one here.

With the introduction of six regional mayors,

Labour's Andy Burnham became Mr Manchester.

But by the time Corbyn came to celebrate, the new mayor

We want you to stay for a second because I've got some

I used to present news, as you probably know.

I used to present BBC Breakfast in the morning.

The SNP had notable successes, ending 40 years of Labour

What did you prefer - presenting or politics?

And it certainly had been a hard day at the office for some.

Ukip's foothold in local government was all but wiped out,

leaving the Conservatives with their best local

So another election results day draws to a close.

But don't worry, we'll be doing it all again in five weeks' time.

For now, though, that's your lot. Off you go.

Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,

and what they might mean for the wider fortunes

In England, there were elections for 34 councils.

The Conservatives took control of ten of them,

gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained

While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,

and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.

In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing

a third of their seats, and control of three councils -

while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.

In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,

There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party

after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,

although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.

We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.

You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.

In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the

general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May

wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning

a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local

election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win

the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course

people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were

double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas

the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point

Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a

landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in

England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative

lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that

she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about

who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but

there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves

her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The

local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is

going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most

prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep

the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary

Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election

results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I

looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the

general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both

local elections in these years, but come the general election, they

added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen

again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.

Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local

elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in

1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.

In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --

their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition

campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of

Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth

noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip

voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to

increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,

the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the

party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the

Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we

should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in

the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper

forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is

producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum

has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,

the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do

you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially

disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional

question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been

faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively

disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south

of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly

the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the

leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they

will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the

remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa

May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote

has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining

us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I

wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced

fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the

centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.

That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the

argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,

Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of

the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue

vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the

spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like

Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British

politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact

what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not

something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,

when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,

dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad

spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain

have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like

they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too

small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest

thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has

limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We

don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is

some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a

realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.

Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the

disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been

saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They

still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have

picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a

strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's

very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel

that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job

done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour

Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are

shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has

produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was

called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the

Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off

editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party

united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over

Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David

Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for

this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because

it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to

take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at

a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a

united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a

long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big

campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no

income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -

which of course means those earning more than that could

face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John

McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone

earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an

increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.

For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more

to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be

a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a

society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.

We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.

Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be

paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.

But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would

not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for

the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners

won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a

policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell

also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%

of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying

to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,

you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's

manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out

and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set

out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he

is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis

just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The

polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was

it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between

now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.

Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their

share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way

is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I

satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is

a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections

are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to

put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle

income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You

lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The

journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an

easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are

comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the

terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a

challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are

determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter

policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took

place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --

took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of

British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm

election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after

his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of

mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all

of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I

am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused

on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies

like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum

wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of

earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and

funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by

the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives

of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the

few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to

be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.

You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy

Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate

his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview

straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped

him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the

reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in

Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into

celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge

him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to

travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed

on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?

Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time

with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy

Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am

convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat

on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He

said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour

while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the

doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my

constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single

voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest

thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that

people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even

talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy

Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum

wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and

sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under

this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,

but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,

perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour

leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on

the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead

the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won

the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more

might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of

the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four

weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see

further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to

Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my

constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And

also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She

should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.

Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary

people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D

and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do

that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living

standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the

living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We

have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you

for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's

elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party

won its best ever local government performance,

but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote

plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously

benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for

the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now

by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,

Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip

finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the

Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't

it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go

out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney

war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from

Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime

Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one

of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really

looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a

lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our

part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the

moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to

shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing

on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their

minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime

Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong

in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back

her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last

week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to

bully the British government, in those circumstances the British

people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the

Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician

in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for

your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters

are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in

the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.

There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that

once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit

negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the

focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of

policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.

The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap

the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health

service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with

the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of

what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces

beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not

Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that

time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's

fault. We have two become more professional than we have been

recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or

another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very

rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other

promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not

until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not

have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this

current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most

senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --

no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I

believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is

shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital

mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto

launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but

also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity

bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies

that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.

Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory

advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that

Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?

It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and

have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.

When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.

Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Welcome to Sunday Politics South. we'll be talking about the French

We're giving over the whole of today's programme

to Thursday's local elections - what they meant in themselves

and what they might tell us about the next vote along,

the general election at the start of next month.

We've got a quartet of local politicians here, and it's safe

to say their parties had mixed fortunes this week.

Keith House is here from the Liberal Democrats,

Kim Rose from Ukip, Satvir Kaur from Labour and Louise Goldsmith

Before we let them all have at one another, just who won -

Here's Ian Paul with a round-up of the results in our region,

helped by our local reporters who were out at the counts.

It turned out to be a rising blue tide and it started lapping

the shorelines of the region in the early hours of Friday

in what quickly became a night of lost leaders.

By far the biggest surprise of the night here in Dorset

was the Conservative leader Robert Gould losing his seat

The county remained under Conservative control,

with 32 of the 46 seats and a group meeting will elect

a new Conservative leader in the next few days.

Down two seats overall, but they remain the second-biggest

18 months after winning their first-ever seat on the county

council in the by-election, they have added another, doubling

All eyes here on the Isle of Wight are centred on the battle for power

between the independents and the Tories.

And just before four o'clock, when the last result was called,

it became clear that it was a good night for the Conservatives,

who had gained an overall majority, giving the council leader

Dave Stewart that majority administration he had

The Conservatives' gain was undoubtedly the independents'

loss who ended the night with six fewer seats than they started,

most notably former leader Jonathan Bacon who resigned

from his post as leader in January and tonight finds himself out

Our problem with the previous council that it was run as

a no-overall-control council and the majority of councillors

on the other side eventually chose to abuse that and stop

Not much change in Hampshire, where the ruling Conservatives

As for Ukip, they lost every single one of the seats

The Liberal Democrats seemed happy with their tally,

bagging another three seats and crucially, for them,

all the wards in the Eastleigh parliamentary constituency,

which they are hoping to win back at the general election.

Daybreak brought the start of counting in our remaining

councils and again, the story as the day wore on was Ukip retreat

In West Sussex, Ukip had been the largest opposition party

They are not any more, with every single one

of their councillors going down to defeat.

Yes, today's results are disappointing, but on the big

picture, I still think we look back with great victory in our eyes.

We have achieved the Brexit vote, nobody else.

We still have a purpose, we will carry on fighting.

In county after county, the numbers may have been different,

Wiltshire, the Conservatives up eight.

Buckinghamshire, the Conservatives up five.

With 53 council seats up for grabs, the results soon

The first big shock, the Conservative deputy leader,

Rodney Rose, losing his seat to the Lib Dems.

Disappointment for Labour as they lost seats to the Conservatives,

They held on to Witney South and Central, a seat they only won

Given the success of the Tories nationally, I think Conservatives

here will be disappointed they didn't win a majority.

That puts them in exactly the same position as four years ago.

That time around, they cobbled together

I suspect something similar might happen again this time.

Cobbling together happening in some places but they result in others.

Keith, there was a difference between the Remain and Leave areas.

Oxon saw a big advance in the Lib Dem vote and labour staying the

same. The Conservatives ended up on a knife edge but still got a seat

because there was no Ukip wrote to squeeze. I don't think it was that

no clear-cut because Eastleigh, where the Lib Dems won every single

warden... You are going to get that in whatever happened! There was a

marginal vote for Leave but the Lib Dems vote went up massively. So not

about Brexit? Totally mixed trends. Why are you complaining about

thinking about Brexit again? We campaign on issues to do with

Britain's relationship with the European Union but it was not a

major factor in the local elections. That was Theresa May calling a

general election and people using their local vote in the way they

would use it in a general election. William relieved when the general

election was called -- were you relieved when the general election

was called? We had a good story to was called? We had a good story to

tell, we were proud... But were people voting on local issues? The

Lib Dems ran a negative campaign in West Sussex and that did not help

them. When I was out canvassing them. When I was out canvassing

before the announcement and afterwards, there was a ringing

endorsement for Theresa May's decision. More importantly, we had a

lot of local issues that were coming up because we did actually go out

with a very clear literature on what we had done and people talking about

education, supporting the fact that we were continuing to get more money

for children's schools, air quality, really good its use. That is

excellent for us to year and listen to and act upon. You cleared out

every one of the ten Ukip seat, who had been the opposition in West

Sussex. Had they been putting up opposition? Several have stood down

so they one of running a full field anyway. Do you think some of them

were paper candidates in 2013? Certainly, some did not even turn

win in Bonner and right across the win in Bonner and right across the

Conservative seats. The third Conservative seats. The third

largest in the country. But we went out very much on what our record was

and what our ambitions were, reflecting our residents' ambitions.

Ukip a remarkable story, you get success in the referendum, but is

there now no pointy Ukip? No, I don't agree. It's the end of a

pressure groups in the history of pressure groups in the history of

politics. Theresa May has taken all the best bits as of Ukip and is

wearing a purple coat and good luck to her with Brexit and we will

support with that and hope we get what we want? . You might as well

have not stood in all these places, you might as well have said about

Conservative. No, because there are local it seems we are fighting on.

You didn't get much support. We didn't have time to put our voice

across. We are fighting on IFA two... Tell us what that is? It's

about the connection across the Channel, there is a big power

station going up. The Tory councillor is not going to go

against a Tory council. It needed an opposition candidate to take that

forward. But you no longer have Ukip councillors as a county council

level, the same thing as likely to happen as a district level because

it turns out that your votes were processed modes. At the moment

people are going -- words protest votes. At the moment, people aren't

going with Theresa May, with the mainstream. I have linked up with

John Rhys Evans... What happened to Paul Nuttall, I thought he was

leading Ukip can Woods this is the way forward for Ukip. We don't know

what might happen to Ukip in the future. Does it suggest to you that

it was a protest vote? I think so, we saw that in Hampshire, with Ukip

wiped out. But there was no foregone conclusion that Ukip Rose will go to

the Conservatives. In places like Eastleigh, their vote went to the

Liberal Democrats and they gained Ukip seats. If it was a process

mode, surely the opposition should be getting the votes, Labour should

be doing better. Where we have local elections, they were an urban places

and there are areas where traditionally Labour did not do well

in places like Southampton where people may have voted for Ukip.

Working-class communities, I come from one, they genuinely care about

local issues, the NHS. It feels like Jeremy Corbyn is positioning himself

as the man versus the establishment. He is almost copying the Donald

Trump approach? I went to the States and fought for Hillary Clinton! I

think that across the party, there is a massive feeling for this

antiestablishment, having parties that are more relevant to people.

Jeremy Corbyn taps into that, that is not a bad thing. -- I think that

across the parties, there is this massive feeling for the

antiestablishment. Do you except that there were no votes for Labour

coming out? We did win in Crawley... Crawley is an example of where we

have a really strong... A la Labour ward is really strong. There were

boundary reviews right across the county but gossips green, we nearly

one that -- we nearly won that. We have made headway. It is about

talking and working with your communities and listening to them.

That is vital for local politician. Louise, your communities in West

Sussex, they were saying to you you do not have any money for roads and

education. Your leader is not doing you any favours because her social

care policy is going in the manifesto. We have been given ?25

million for the next three years to help with adult social care. On

school funding, we have not resolved... Your head teachers are

saying they might have to send children home! And we are waiting

for results of the consultation which ended on the 22nd of March. We

now have the general election. We will continue to fight for that

fairer funding for our children in schools. I have been working as have

all our MPs and it is right for our children in Sussex. The funding

schools is a huge issue, but are you just saying we need more money? It

is never just about money, it is about management as well. But you

can't run public services without money going in. That's why the Lib

Dems have made it clear that we are prepared to fund health and social

care properly so that we have an NHS that works properly joined up with

social care. That is an investment. In Hampshire, we see services being

wiped out to a point that season -- that destroys local amenities. The

point made by Ukip was a local government needs to be more

efficient? Take Louise, you are duplicate payments. This is a story

that was reported... You have made a big story, it isn't. This is where a

council pays twice for something and doesn't know about it. How can you

pay a contractor twice for the same job? Sandra James sent eight samples

to an internal audit, seven were approved, ?129,000 of people's money

was wasted. How much more to be uncovered? We were reviewing that

long before Sandra James came in. We have had consultants going through

it. That 129,000 pounds came down to ?50,000. Live on TV, I demand an

independent review on this matter. I'm sure we can get the truth out in

the end. Ukip made a big deal of it, but it was something that a lot of

councils have issues with. You have been in local government a long

time, it is difficult to get all the payments... No, it should not be

difficult. This is management. If you can't get that right, there is

something wrong. I want to defend it, because every county council has

huge alleges because there are so many payments. West Sussex council

has half a billion coming in, managing that. We had a consultant

coming in to review and another consultant coming in where the

dispute arose and it was from that dispute that we had some

whistle-blowing. We have had another company who have given us a clean

bill of health. It sounds like a lot of money has been spent on

consultants! Is Welsh show that we were right. There was a point

Ukip raised that this you and you Ukip raised that this you and you

replied to it. But he was suggesting that less money should be spent on

services, don't you want more money to be spent? Absolutely. In

Southampton, we had ?100 million cuts and public services are

suffering. We have heard that they are fighting for more money.,

fighting for this and that. You shouldn't have to fight against your

own government. They should support local governments so that we can

support the communities we are serving. Adult social care, public

health, schooling, these are health, schooling, these are

integral parts of communities. integral parts of communities.

Libraries as well. The Tories are not doing anything for those

have not close one library. We have have not close one library. We have

expanded what libraries are doing and they are at the centre of the

community. One of the most important things that will happen is more work

community. Along with adult social community. Along with adult social

care, it is not just about the money. It is important that we line

up at the health Department to have up at the health Department to have

authorities as efficient? Do people authorities as efficient? Do people

really trust Jeremy Corbyn to be as efficient as Theresa May?

Absolutely! Al council is efficient. Absolutely! Al council is efficient.

We have been in power since 2012 and people have re-elected us because

the proof is in the pudding. We have delivered. Things are difficult,

schooling, that comes from central government. Locally, all we can do

is put a sticking plaster on. Social care, despite the 2%, it is going

down a black coal because this government is not addressing the

real need. Local government is more efficient than central government,

we could agree on that. So if we see a pattern where government continues

to centralise and reduced control to local authorities, we will not solve

these problems. But they are devolving! Thou not really devolving

anything. Very few parts of the south of England have had serious

devolution. To join up health and social care, we have to have health

service working more closely with local government. It doesn't help

the global authorities are making bed blocking worse by not sorting

out care packages. There is efficiency matters that local

government must do better on. We'll Ukip politicians come up with

suggestions for these things? Peter, it would be for Ukip politicians.

This time around I know what will happen to Ukip... They going to get

a bloodbath. We are still the guard dogs of Brexit. If Theresa May drops

her baton Joss once... Using people will come back to you? I'm positive

that people would come back to Ukip. Under this new democracy, under this

new regime it is an exciting time, it will empower the people and give

the silent people a voice. Those that shout the loudest are the less

needy. It is the silent people we need to help. You are already

standing down and lots of preservatives and -- in lots of

scenes where there are Conservative MPs will stop I have given

consideration and I... I don't believe Watson Smith has done a lot

for the city. I felt that Ukip should stand in as many seats as

alliances and. At the end of the alliances and. At the end of the

day, users stands for yourself. The candidate in Oxford West and

Abingdon, the Green candidate, Aston down to give the Liberal Democrat a

clear run at the cooler backward. What you think of that? I think that

is so cynical. Residents who voted in, in good faith... That is so

cynical. We need to work with our residents and for them to have faith

in politicians, and whatever level. I'm not happy with that sort of

thing. It's up to individual parties to decide what is in the best

interests of their residents. We have seen this pattern before and

different points and it is clear that the race is between the

Conservatives and other Democrats and if voters get behind the Lib

Dems to defeat the Conservatives, that is fine by me. How can we have

an effective opposition to hold the Conservative government to account,

and Ukip admitting they are not in the race, that is why we need

Liberal Democrats in the place... Say you have declared the election

over! Always keep fighting. You could stand down? Labour has

selected candidate in all seats and win intend to stand in all seats.

Now the wonderfully generous BBC have given me my own vehicle to get

out and about during this election campaign and it will be

Well, it was good enough for Norman Tebbit...

My fold-up bicycle will let me get right down to the grassroots

of public opinion, and I'll be starting the election cycle -

travelling down through Newbury and Andover through

Do you know, they actually hired that, rather than bought the bike!

And you can watch my reports on South Today.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks

Next week, we'll be out on the road with the first of our election

housing associations and investment, but we have run out of time, thank

you. Andrew. Four weeks to go until polling day

on the 8th of June, what will the party strategies be for the

remaining four weeks? Let's begin with the Conservatives. Do they just

try to continue to play it safe for four weeks? Yes, with this important

qualification. Theresa May Corp this election to get her own personal

mandate partly, partly because she thought she would win big but to get

her own personal mandate. Therefore, she needs to define it. In her own

interests and to do with accountability to the country. So

clearly, they will not take risks when they are so far ahead in the

polls. What they do say in the manifesto matters in

terms of the space that she has in the coming years to define her

leadership against David Cameron 's. She is a free figure, partly on the

basis of what she says as to how big she wins. They cannot just play it

safe and repeat their mantra of strong and stable leadership, if she

is going to claim her own mandate, they need the top policy? Yes, and

what is unusual about this is that the manifesto matters far more

because of what they need to do with it afterwards, than in terms of

whether it is going to win anybody over now. Clearly, the strategy is

yes, we do have two layout out a few things, there are interesting

debates as to whether, for example, they will still commit to this

ambition of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, we do not

know the answer yet. It is a question on whether she is setting

herself up for difficulties later on. It will be a short manifesto, I

would venture to guess? It is in her interests to be as noncommittal as

possible, that argues for a short manifesto but what does strike me

about the Conservative campaign, aside from the ambiguity on policy,

is how personal it is. I think Theresa May, in her most recent

speech, referred to "My local candidates", rather than

Parliamentary candidates, very much framing it as a presidential

candidate in France or the USA. Not a rational on her part. Everything I

hear from the MPs on the ground and the focus groups being done by the

parties, is that a big chunk of the population personally identify with

her. If you can wrap up Middle England into a physical object and

embody it in a person, it would be her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's

unpopularity accounts for a big slice of her popularity, she has

done a good job of bonding with the public. We never saw that coming!

But you may well be right. That is happening now. Labour say it wants

the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell to play a more prominent role in the

Labour campaign, he was on The Andrew Marr Show this morning and he

was asked if he was a Marxist, he denied that he was. It surprised me

as I had seen tape from before saying that he was proud of it.

Let's look now and then. Are you a Marxist? I believe that there is a

lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe that there is a lot to learn from

reading capital, that is recommended not only by me but measuring

economists as well. I also believe that in the long tradition of the

Labour Party... We need to demand systemic change. I am a Marxist.

This is a classic crisis of the economy. A capitalist crisis. I've

been waiting for this for a generation! That was from about four

years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist, yes, I am a Marxist... I've been

waiting for the Marxist revolution my whole life... Does this kind of

thing matter? Yes, but in fairness, I think he is a really good

interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have untested figures in a national

campaign. None have ever been exposed at any level to a national

media campaign that they are about to experience. He is the best

interviewee. In fairness to him, when he gave that clip four years

ago, I bet he never dream that he would be in a senior front bench

position. But the background is clear. They are of the left, and I

think they would all have described it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done,

he is close to being like Tony Benn. There are about four Labour campaign

is being fought in this election. Their campaign, the old Shadow

Cabinet, campaigning in constituencies, but not identifying

with that campaign. There is the former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is

it damaging? I think so, if they could be damaged any further, I

could see all of the Labour MPs with their heads in their hands. What I

am hearing from Labour MPs is that there is not one of them who do not

feel that they have a horrendous battle on their hands. These will be

very individual local campaigns, where local MPs are winning despite

the party leadership and not because of it. Already, talk is turning to

what happens next. Is there anyway that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a

horrendous set of general election results as many anticipate, may stay

on all the same? It is not clear that even if the polls are right,

that Mr Corbyn will go? John McDonnell implied it might not be

the case but previously, he said it would be. What do you make of

reports that the Labour strategy is not, I cannot quite believe I am

saying this, not to win seats but maximise a share of the vote. If

they do better than Ed Miliband with 30.5% of the vote, they believe they

live to fight another day? Yes, it reminded me of Tony Benn's speech

after the 1983 election where they said as bad as the Parliamentary

defeat was there were 8 million votes for socialism. A big section

of public opinion voted for that manifesto. I wonder whether that is

Corbyn's supporters best chance of holding onto power. Whether they can

say that those votes are a platform on which we can build. That said,

even moderate Labour MPs and desperate for a quick leadership

contest. I hear a lot of them say that they would like to leave it for

one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as an acting Labour leader. He would

still have a mandate. Give the top party a chance to regroup and get

rid of some of its problems and decide where it stands on policy.

Most importantly, for potential candidates to show what they are

made of, rather than lurching straight into an Yvette Cooper

Coronation. 30 seconds on the Liberal Democrats, their strategy

was to mop up the Remain vote. Uncertain about the Brexit party in

demise. Ukip. The remain as have a dilemma, the little Democrats are

not a strong enough vessel with 89 MPs to risk all ongoing for them --

the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not know where they stand on Brexit.

There is not a robust alternative vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit

Conservative Party. At the moment. Four weeks to go, but not for

France... France has been voting since early

this morning, and we should get a first estimate of who will be

the country's next President Just to warn you there are some

flashing images coming up. The choice in France

is between a centre-left liberal reformer Emmanuel Macron

and a right-wing nationalist Marine Le Pen - both have been

casting their votes this morning. The two candidates topped

a field of 11 presidential hopefuls in the first

round of elections last month. The campaign has been marked

by its unpredictability, and in a final twist on Friday

evening, just before campaigning officially ended,

Mr Macron's En Marche! group said it had been the victim

of a "massive" hack, with a trove of documents

released online. The Macron team said real documents

were mixed up with fake ones, and electoral authorities warned

media and the public that spreading details of the leaks would breach

strict election rules. I'm joined now from

Paris by the journalist As I left Paris recently, everybody

told me that there was the consensus that Mr Macron would win, and win

pretty comfortable you. Is there any reason to doubt that? -- pretty

comfortably. I don't think so, there have been so many people left and

right, former candidates who have decided that it was more important

to vote for Macron, even if it was agreed with him, then run the risk

of having Marine Le Pen as president. I think the spread is now

20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le Pen. So outside of the margin of

error that it would take something huge for this to be observed. If the

polls are right and Mr Macron wins, he has to put together a government,

and in May there is a Coronation, then he faces parliamentary

elections in June and could face a fractured parliament where he does

not have a clear majority for his reforms. He could then faced

difficulties in getting his programme through? I think that

right now, with how things are looking, considering you have one

half of the Republican party, the Conservative Party, they are making

clear sides, not only that they want to support Macron but are supporting

him actively. It means looking at the equivalent of the German party,

the great coalition. Depending on how many seats established parties

keep in the house committee may very well have a Republican Prime

Minister, rather than having an adversarial MP, he may have someone

who is relatively unknown outside of France, and a young woman. Contended

that lost the Parez mayorship three years ago. She is a scientist and

has been secretary of state. She would be an interesting coalition

Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le Pen, if she goes down to defeat a

night, does she have the stomach and ambition, and the energy, to try it

all again in 2022? She has all of that. The question is, would they

let her? How badly would she lose? Her niece, now 27, a hard-working

and steady person, unlike Marine Le Pen, who flunked her do paid --

debate, her niece may decide that 2022 is her turn. Yet another Le

Pen! All right, we will see. Just five years to wait, but only a few

hours until the results of the election tonight.

And we will get the exit polls here on the BBC. Given the exit polls

will give as a pretty fair indication of what the result is

going to be tonight. That will be on BBC news. That's all for today.

The Daily Politics will cover every turn of this election campaign,

And we're back here on BBC One at our usual time Next Sunday.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

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