27/01/2013 Sunday Politics Wales


27/01/2013

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And the presiding officer Rosemary Butler tells us that the make-up of

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the National Assembly must reflect the population in order for the

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2293 seconds

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The National Assembly's Presiding Officer wants more women to be

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elected to public offices. And plans to shake-up the authority

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that looks after historic sites in Wales.

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Good afternoon tea both. Gill, you spent the week in Brussels. David

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Cameron finally made his speech on the European question. What have

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you heard from your fellow MEPs? Well, a mixture. Exasperation.

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Indifference from some quarters, bemusement. Of course there is

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going to be a debate on the future of the European Union and what

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treaty changes are needed in the next few years. But really what

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David Cameron is proposing is highly unlikely to happen. But I

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think in Wales it is exasperating because he is looking very much at

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the UK within Europe. But if we are really to build any you Mac that is

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responsive -- to build and it EU them what we need to have is a

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debate in Wales as well. They need to talk about which of those powers

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should come to the National Assembly if that was to happen. So

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certainly we need a debate, but in terms of other countries in Europe,

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they are quite bewildered and bemused. David Cameron is just

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reflecting public opinion, isn't he? There's been a bounced towards

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the Conservatives following his speech. I'm sure there will be some

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short-term popularity and it sounds attractive. But it is highly

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irresponsible. Once people start thinking about the consequences to

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the economy. It is irresponsible of the Prime Minister to be put in the

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interest of his political party, to use Europe as a smokescreen for

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divisions in the Conservative Party. I think in the long-term he will

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rue the day that he is adopted this position. There is no guarantee

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that he would vote to leave Europe. No, but it is the uncertainty and

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lack of clarity on what Britain's position actually is. With regard

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to the UK, where does Wales feature? And Scotland? It seems

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Cameron is prepared to almost sacrifice the Hedger many of the UK

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for the sake of very narrow personal interest. -- the hegemony.

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There is overwhelming opposition to plans to investigate the body that

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looks after historical sites. An inquiry by an Assembly committee

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found widespread unease about the idea of a merger among its

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academics and heritage groups. The Welsh government has a history

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of reorganising public institutions. The Welsh Development Agency, the

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NHS. Now, it has another in its sights - the authority that

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investigates historic buildings and archaeology. The Royal Commission

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on the Ancient and historical Monuments of Wales. It was founded

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in 19 awake, but like the rest of the public Brown, it has entered

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the age of austerity. It receives �2 million a year from the Welsh

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government. A Heritage Minister says he is worried about resilience

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in the face of public spending cuts. He wants to bring the commission in

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house and merge it with the Welsh government's conservation service.

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That service looks after historic sites like here so there we can all

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come and enjoy them. The Royal Commission investigates the site so

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there we can understand the place in history. Why not build a bridge

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between them and bring the two together? If it offends their work

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from cutbacks, what is the harm in merging both organisations? But

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there is strong opposition to a merger. Historian Professor Ralph

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Griffiths is a former chairman of the commission. The proposal is to

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take it into the government itself, which is becoming a trend nowadays.

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Then it would lose its arm's-length quality and the confidence people

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feel in it. After hearing from the professor and 82 other witnesses,

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the assembly's Communities Committee told Mr Lewis there was

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overwhelming opposition to a merger, particularly if it happens within

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the government itself. It seems all the advice weaves -- we have

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received as a committee is saying, you should merge these bodies

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outside of government. I'm concerned that this is an

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ideological decision, they are centralising everything, they are

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control freaks. Everything has to be under the direct control of the

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minister, a rather than doing the sensible thing and enabling those

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two bodies to thrive and attract that additional money. Mr Lewis has

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asked to see a business case on a merger by March. A White Paper on

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the Heritage Bill will follow. Needs must. We're in a situation

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where everybody needs to look deeply at issues. We've considered

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this very carefully. Everyone involved that is close to it

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recognises that status quo is not an option at the moment. If we are

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to have a resilient historic sector, we need change. The is merger isn't

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a new idea, but when it was put to Mr Lewis's predecessor, you says he

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wasn't convinced. I think the minister is probably under some

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pressure from his own department, and I think there's a feeling it is

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nonsense to have two bodies operating vaguely in the same area.

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There are unforeseen consequences often when you change the pattern

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of institutions like this, and you have to be careful that what

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emerges is better than what you have that the moment. The Royal

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Commission on the ancient and historic monuments of Wales told

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Sunday politics it wants to see a robust and transparent examination

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of the options available. Its own evidence talks of asset-stripping.

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After more than 100 years of independence, how much longer can

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it hold out? Some insight there into why he was

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going ahead with this. Needs must, he said. Is this been done to save

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money? Obviously, these are two bodies that are working in the same

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area. So I can understand these concerns. The Royal Commission has

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a particularly good reputation so any change is of concern. I think

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they hit the nail on the head when they said that there may be just a

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vacation before it, but what comes out of it has to be better than

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what you've got. I think that is a challenge and that is why the

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scrutiny has focused so much on this. Bearing in mind the evidence

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given to the committee, overwhelming opposition, what does

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that say to you or anyone else but the government is planning to go

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ahead despite the overwhelming opposition? I think the question is

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the way in which the government raises -- answers the points raised

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by the committee. We had a similar process in respect to the

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environmental bodies as well, where the scrutiny has said, we

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understand what it is you're trying to achieve, but you show to a us

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that what you are proposing will work and what guarantees are you

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giving? That is the role of scrutiny and that will be the test

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as to whether the government's proposal is going to go ahead and

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be effective. If this does go ahead, Ralph Griffiths was saying there

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that the government would lose the confidence of the experts. That

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would be quite a high price to pay. Certainly, and the independence of

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the Royal Commission is crucial. As he said, there has been

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overwhelming evidence given against the merger and against it being

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taken in by the government. I think there's a wider picture as well, if

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you look at it in terms of the economy. It is being driven by the

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need to make cuts, but that is a false argument, because tourism and

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heritage and cultural tourism in Wales is something we haven't even

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begun to exploit fully. There is huge potential to develop that. I

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hosted a seminar in the European Parliament last week looking at

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sustainable tourism where different countries came together to look at

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the potential for expanding at, which of course creates jobs and

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helps the economy. So I think that looking are bodies like is to try

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to make cuts is a false measure. I think it is counter-productive.

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What we should be doing is really investing in this and looking

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seriously at tourism in Wales. Lewis made it clear why these

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changes are likely to happen. We going to see this in other

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departments, aren't we? In a bid to save money and slim down the budget,

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more things are going to be pushed together. This will be a recurring

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argument. There's no doubt there is a tremendous financial squeeze on

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public services and particularly on things like museums. Particularly

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where we have opened access to them and make them free. I adopt the

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position that we don't want change. I can understand why there is

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caution and concern about change. But it boils down to the scrutiny -

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what are you trying to achieve? Will you be able to at least

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maintain what you're doing or improve it with the resources you

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have got? That is a challenge and the jury is still out on that.

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Now, the Assembly's Presiding Officer has run privately to all

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leaders of the four political parties urging them to take action

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to ensure top more women are elected to public offices. In 2006,

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more than half of a AMs will women but not any more. I spoke to

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Rosemary and asked her if this reduction would continue into the

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next election. Well, as you know, we've had enormous success with

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elected women. Over 50% a couple of years ago. Down to 44%, so slipping

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slightly, and the more I went about as a Presiding Officer, I could see

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there were very few Women in local government, magistrates, governors,

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the local health boards. And when you think that women are over 50%

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of the population, that is a huge resource to be wasted. If we are to

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be effective as an Assembly, we need to it reflect the make-up of

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the population. You've asked parties to consider what they could

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do to get more men -- more women elected. Does political pragmatism

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takeover of? If I had the answer, I wouldn't be sitting year -- sitting

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here. I've asked the party leaders to least look at how they would do

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it. I wouldn't prescribe a particular way of doing it. But

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there must be a way to make more people come for it for elections.

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And it's not just about the Assembly. It is across Wales.

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why is it important them more women are elected, whether it is councils,

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the Assembly or Parliament? Well, they make up 50% of the population.

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I'm not saying were better than men, were different. Working together,

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you get better policies. Research has been done at across the world

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to show that when you get mixed genders on legislation you get

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better policies. There were lots of women elected to the Assembly in

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1999 who may be considering if they will stand again in next election

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in 2016. Do you know what your position will be? 2016? I've got a

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crystal ball but I'm not looking that far ahead. I think when I'm

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making that decision my husband will be the first to know, not the

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BBC. But I have a very important job to do. I have the great

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privilege of being a Presiding Officer. There's lots of work to do.

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A youth introduced some changes this week to business in the

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Assembly. -- you have introduced. Have you been stung by a question

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that perhaps you are too cosy with the government when it comes to

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First Minister's Questions? Well, you almost -- you ought ask the

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First Minister about my relationship with them. You will

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find it is anything but cosy! I must be doing something right

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because I suppose I am equally unfair with everybody. I was a bit

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taken aback by it and the running of the Assembly. I have introduced

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quite a few changes. We rearranged the committee so it is bigger. We

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now look at scrutiny and policy changing. So the members can build

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up a much better expertise. I'm going to introduce more

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opportunities to backbench legislation. Cross-party debates,

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and also leaders questions, which was any before. So a lot is

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happening. I'm pleased to say that this week the business committee

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has agreed we will change the timing for submitting questions. At

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the moment, they have to be submitted to ministers two weeks in

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advance. Now, it will be five days for ministers and three days for

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the first ministers, which means the questions will be more topical

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and concise. That's what it comes down to, so the government can be

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scrutinised. Do you think they are being scrutinised sufficiently

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well? I can't possibly comment on that, but the opportunity is there

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for members to ask concise questions. If they're not getting

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the answers, keep asking the questions. I'm not responsible for

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what the ministers say, I'm responsible for making sure the

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system is there so that other members of the Assembly can

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pressure them. Thank you. That was the presiding Officer Rosemary

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Butler. She said she doesn't have the answers as to how to get more

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women elected. Do you? Well, plight curry has a woman deputy leader,

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chair, chief executive. We have a very good record in the past. --

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Plaid Cymru. There isn't one answer but I welcome the fact she has

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written to the parties. They are now in the process of choosing

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candidates, so this is the right time. There are whole range of

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messages -- measures that can be looked at. There have been a lot of

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women candidates in Wales who have stood in Wales where there is no

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chance of winning. That is good experience of course, but

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ultimately for the Assembly and government, we want equal

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representation, so we want women to win seats in the Assembly, to take

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up those seats so that we can say once again the we are amongst the

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best in the world. Your party had equal distribution in recent years.

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You won a seat when one of your comments -- colleagues step down.

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That happened a lot, lots of women AMs step down and were replaced by

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men. Was that a step backwards? think there is a danger in using

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the electoral system to manipulate too much. People will react if they

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feel they are not being given a choice. I agree with the point that

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there is no simple answer, but I'm encouraged her looking across

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parties at the number of very articulate women coming forward

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through the LA -- the political process. I think it is the support

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for those candidates in the future that is important. But people are

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encouraged, because clearly we want an Assembly that reflects society

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at large. And one that is able to hold the government to account.

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Some of the other things Rosemary Butler suggested there, the changes

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she is making to make question asking more concise - perhaps

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something I could learn from both you and your colleagues could learn

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from it as well. I think the problem is not in the answers

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people are getting, but the quality of the questions. Sometimes

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remembers confuse making a speech with asking a probing question that

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leads to identifying issues that they want to raise. So there is an

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issue there. The quality of what you ask rather than the information

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given afterwards. Is this a problem in the European Parliament?

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don't, because speaking time is strictly restricted. I must say,

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when we do ask questions, we get very open, detailed answers,

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generally. The problem there is the lack of speaking time not the

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length of questions. Time now for a quick look back at

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the political stories of the last Carwyn Jones set the debate was led

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by corrosive English nationalism. He said withdrawal from the EU

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would be disastrous for the Welsh economy. A cross-party group of AMs

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united in an attempt to save local health services in Wales. Four of

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them won the Minister to intervene and plans to move specialist

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intensive baby-care to England after the university health board

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said it must over all services. BBC Wales apologised for a claim

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that a story in the medical drama casualty had to be pulled because

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of a smoking ban in Wales. The smoking did a runner by filming an

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alternative way of his smoking scene.

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And four of the town's hotels have What is your favourite seaside

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resort? I would have to pick between a few. Now, there is a

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decision on the Agricultural wages Board, which are in the UK

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government decided to abolish. You want it reinstated here in Wales.

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Yes, the government wants to retain a body that does that function. The

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function maintains levels of wagers for farmers. It is a living wage

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agricultural workers. What you will start seeing his moves by the

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government, if you're going to abolish it, we are going to take

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measures under the devolved agricultural responsibility to

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protect agricultural workers in Wales. It was going to be abolished

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on an England and Wales level without much consultation --

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consultation with the Assembly. think what the Assembly has done is

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right. If you're talking about agriculture, we've had massive

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debates and votes this week in the European Parliament on the future

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of agriculture policy. We're just campaigning now about things that

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would affect the income of Welsh farmers badly. Thank you for

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watching us today. That's all we have time for. You can watch the

:02:08.:02:18.
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