13/10/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

Morning, welcome to the veritable pot pourri that is this morning's

Sunday Politics. We have Alastair Charmichael. We'll ask him what he

has that his predecessor Michael Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps

going on and on and on. He'll bang his drum for Europe.

Free of the shackles of Government, former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne

will be with us. We'll ask him for the inside scoop.

Later in the programme, we'll hear Diane

Later in the programme, we'll hear Leanne Wood on what a Plaid Cymru

Welsh government would do to cut energy bills and employ more doctors

through a tax on sugary drinks. energy bills and employ more doctors

says we've misunderstood the problem of human trafficking and that men

are the forgotten victims. And with me, as always, three

pundits who we try to shuffle out of a job but failed miserably, Mick

watt, Miranda Green Andijan an Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if

their lives depended on it throughout the programme.

Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving to the left or right? Last week, a

chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen a a shift to the lot of. Two have

announced policy changes which could indicate he moved back to the

middle. New shadows Work and Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves

says Labour will be tougher on the Tories. While Tristram Hunt says

Labour loves Tory-style free schools after all. Here he is on the BBC

earlier this morning. I've one message for you and

viewers. If you are a group of parents, social entrepreneurs,

teachers, interested in setting up a school in areas where you need new

school place, the Labour Government will be on your side. That's free

schools. We are in favour of enterprise and innovation. It will

schools. We are in favour of be in areas of need. We have a

school places crisis going on. It will have properly qualified

school places crisis going on. It teachers in these schools. And

thirdly, systems of financial accountability. What is going on

with the Al Madina school is because of terrible mistakes with Michael

Gove's policy. I'm not sure if the policies have

changed, the change of tone is remarkable, both on welfare and free

schools. A significant change of tone. It was interesting the

reshuffle on the Labour frontbench last week was init wered as a purge

of Blair rights. It seemed to be a purge of anti-reform thinking.

Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi different on substance but saying

Labour will be tough than the Tories on welfare. You've seen that clip

from Tristram, free schools will be allowed to be set up in areas of

need. Greater oversight. But a completely different change of tone,

we are on the side of parents and social entrepreneurs who want to set

these up. A different change. Why are they doing this? On education,

so far the debate has been polarised. You've had the Michael

Gove uber reformers in the department. This weekend, we've had

leaked memos from one of Michael Gove's advisers which are extreme

views about the state of education. And on the other side teaching

unions. It hasn't led to a healthy debate which represents what parents

want out of schools or employers. This is a huge move from the Labour

Party to sound more reasonable. They have been silent on education which

is a huge policy area on the left. Is this a focus group-driven change?

They've seen the polls. Welfare reforms are hugery popular and free

schools for those who have them? You only apiece the focus groups by

changing the policy substantially. I always thought a test for this

Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed Miliband would promote Blair rights,

it is clear he did, it is whether they would be allowed to be Blair

rights. When Stephen Twigg carried the education portfolio it was clear

his own views were closer to the Government than he was allowed to

let on. He was constrained. There is no point of giving Tristram Hunt

this job if he is not allowed to say what he thinks. I wouldn't mind

betting privately he thinks free schools should be available beyond

just areas of need. He hasn't yet defined need. It could be, we've run

out of places or the existing schools are so bad we need schools.

If that is it, it is the same Asics itsing Government policy. In they

are in schools rated as unsatisfactory that's no different.

He wanted to say he was in favour of higher educational standards and

rigour, he had to tell the audience he has a Cambridge PhD to attack

Michael Gove. That was difficult for Tristram Hunt he had to mention

that. Is that worth something, a PhD from Cambridge? Obviously to him it

is. He said they would demand proper teaching qualifications. That could

count him out. He does some teaching? Independent schools do not

have to have teachers with formal teaching qualifications. I've never

been to one? What about you? That decision by Michael Gove to allow

free schools to employ nonunionised and non-trained people, so he has to

say that. Watch this space. The dust settled

after the party resufficients. Do the Tories look a bit more like

Britain. Do the Tories look more like Labour? Here's guiles.

#4 With reshuffles, you're never really certain. There's whispers,

rumours, guesses. But the only way to know it is underway is keeping

beady eyes on a front door. Up until now, the only way we knew who was in

and who was out was who came walking down this bit of Downing Street with

a smile on their face after going to see the boss. The once who are to be

sacked, they usually go round the back. Not this time. No, something

new alerted us all. The-PM started it. It was an extraordinary day. I

can't remember a triple decker reshuffle where you've three parties

changing ministerial teams at the same time. The fact is that

resufficient happened on Twitter. Not that the press stopped watching

the door as well. News was a bit slow in coming until Alastair

Charmichael replaced Michael Moore, the first to be pounced on. I'm

disappointed to be leaving office now but pleased at what I've been

able to achieve in the last couple of years. Not as pleased as one

imagines as the man receiving the welcome that went on, and on and

on... And on... And on! #4 The welcomer, who was

simultaneously having Jeremy Browne, in a sense seen off the premises of

the Home Office in conspiracy to let Norman Baker sing a tune.

the Home Office in conspiracy to let # Blowing hi Jude through a traffic

cone... # #. The brutality of the Liberal

Democrats. We tend to think they are herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet

Minister, another minister, Jeremy Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

ranks were shifting too. The PM keen to boost the numbers of telegenic

women walking into Government and turning perceptions around. He

tipped a so-called flatcap to men from the north or more humble

backgrounds with room for some which fitted neither label but are friends

of George Osborne. And, all the while, those new Tory ministers were

learning of Labour's changes. Labour too knows the value of new young

blood striding into the limelight. Again some with TV experience of

that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de peer row would be hard to describe

as hard left. But Blairbrushing the past out of the picture seemed to be

the name of the day. Liam Byrne moved from higher profile roles.

With Diane Abbott also gone, was this really a Blair right cull? It

depends what you mean. Blair right used to mean someone who wanted Tony

Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely

with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain set

of ideologyies or ideas. There are still very much those kind of Blair

rights within the party. But we are seeing the group around Tony Blair

are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was

over. New bees were sharing the spoils of winner while ousted

ministers quietly thanked commits raters. Or -- commiserators. Or one

angry ex-wife bemoaned their dismissal.

Disappointment in politics is disified. How much much someone

standing here might want it to be the case, you are unlikely to get

someone coming out of that do going "how could." And running off crying!

And the brand, spanking new Scottish Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins

us from Orkney on a line that hasn't been used since the fleet was used

in the outbreak of World War I! I wasn't around at the time. I'm

hearing you loud and clear. Why have you agreed to run a department? That

you wanted to abolish six years ago? Hello? Maybe our connections are not

so great after all. Alastair Charmichael. Can you hear me? I can

hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.

Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department

you wanted to abolish six years ago? Because this is the, probably one of

the most important jobs in British politics at the moment. To ensure

that Scotland remains part of the UK. Even when I was talking about

the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs of Scotland -- representation of

Scotland within Whitehall, there was always a job to be done. That is

true in spades now. I will focus on making sure the UK Government has a

real voice in that debate. What have you that Michael Moore didn't have?

Look, I think Michael Moore did an excellent job. The work he did

delivering the Edinburgh agreement to ensure we got a proper, fair,

clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to

the Scottish Parliament was a substantial piece of work. I'm not

comparing myself to Michael. He's a friend of mine. I will say that as

we go forward into this, this is now about the actual debate itself. I

will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to

remain part of the UK. This isn't just some abstract debate about

nationhood, sovereignty, this is a real debate about people's jobs,

their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot

more. For that, I relish the challenge. I understand that. But if

you're being put in there to save the union, every pole has the no --

poll has the no campaign margin alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing

pretty well to save the union. I suspect you've been given the job to

save the Liberal Democrats in Scotland? And lieu, you misread the

situation if you -- Andrew, you misread the situation new think

anybody is going to be the person who will save the union. The people

who will save the union are the people of Scotland if they turn out

next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for

that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own

party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You

were even behind the Conservatives. The latest poll has you still in

fourth. Are you there because you're a bruiser and you will pep up the

Liberal Democrats opportunity in Scotland. If I had a pound for

everybody to referred to me as being Scotland. If I had a pound for

a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be sitting here this morning. I could

have retired by now. The truth of this, if I can address it once and

for all, I have done probably one of the most complex and subtle jobs in

British politics for the last three-and-a-half years, Liberal

Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition Government. I would not have

survived in that job a week, let alone three-and-a-half years, if I

was the sort of person who went around picking unnecessary fights.

So, can we just please forget about this business about being a bruiser.

As far as the position of the party in the polls, this is true also of

the referendum vote, opinion polls in the polls, this is true also of

are a snapshot. They are not a prediction of what will happen in

the future. I will be out there putting the case. Neither the next

election nor the referendum is one or lost yet. One of the things I

really want to be guarding against is the complacency which says

because we are a good margin ahead today, 12 months out from the actual

polling day, that it is in the bag. Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As

you know, wasn't for the Liberal Democrats. Not just talking about

the polls. You came fourth in the real poll in the Scottish

Parliamentary elections. You said you were happy to facial

ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should David Cameron face him? I am happy

to face anybody who wants to debate. Should David Cameron face

him? No, because that allows Alex Salmond and the Scottish

Nationalists to portray this as some sort of contest or choice between a

vision of Scottish social democracy and English conservativism, which it

is not. This is a debate that has to be held in Scotland about the future

of Scotland amongst Scots. David Cameron has a very important part in

Scotland's public life, but he is not Scottish and I think he will

accept Commies edit himself in fact, the person who should be debating

with Alex Salmond is Alistair Darling. He has got a Scottish name

and his family hails from the wealthiest of Scotland at some stage

in the past. Anyway, you described the campaign to keep the union

together as lacking passion, were you referring to the campaign or

Alistair Darling? I was not referring to Alistair Darling. I

think what I was saying is that as referring to Alistair Darling. I

we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we

are now campaigning for people 's hearts because if you look at the

range of papers the Government has published, it is pretty clear the

arguments lie in relation to the head. I am not giving up the battle

for the hearts and Scotland because there is a good strong case, as

somebody who is proud to be Scottish and to be British, for Scotland to

remain part of the UK. You come from an island that has eight

distilleries and I understand you haven't even had a single

celebratory drink for your new post. Not a drop has touched my lips. Not

supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the 1st

of November, I will be doing it in aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if

anybody wants to go to their website, they can donate. It is

worthwhile. I cannot think of a better cause. One Cabinet minister

who many thought might get Reef -- we shuffled but didn't is Ken

Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics. This reshuffle was about new blood,

more women and more ethnic minorities, where did you fit in? I

would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it is

difficult to replace them. I enjoy it. It is a great privilege to have

a role in Cabinet and I will carry on as long as David wants me to do.

I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have

survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this

reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,

asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my

role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings

of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.

You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why do

you keep going? What do you hope to achieve in politics? I am mostly a

political anorak, I have been since I was very small, by the process of

politics but the older I get I get more concerned about the good

governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems

is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is very

difficult and I find it fascinating. The old argument that attracts every

decent person into politics, you might be able sometimes to make a

bit of difference, and I try to do that. I try not to hark back on my

experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the

Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on

Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain

adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda

on Britain's membership to the EU? I am always for holding people

accountable to the long-term and medium term consequences of

decisions they take as representatives, but this is a

generational thing. I am in a minority now and my colleagues have

firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of

firmly decided a referendum needs to Britain's relationship with the

European Union which I think is one of the most important things in

politics. It will determine Britain's place in the modern world

and determine whether our politicians are able to look after

the living standards, the economy, the safety against terrorism. Last

the living standards, the economy, summer you said that only extreme

nationalists wanted a silly EU referendum. It follows your party

must be full of extremely silly nationalists. The people who are

desperate to have a referendum are all the people who actually want to

leave the European Union. The referendum will involve the public

and people like me have got to get across to the public, don't just

feel angry about the last thing you read in the newspaper about what the

commission is or is not doing, do bear in mind this is our base in the

modern world. We happen to be a leading member, almost as valuable

and rich as the Americans, from there we can have a greater

influence in events. That is not just how the politicians get on the

world stage, it is how the politicians look after us when we

face danger from terrorism is spilling over from the Middle East,

or we face public services being threatened. You didn't even turn up

to vote for the bill which will give us a referendum. I had other

engagements on the Friday concerned. It seemed to get through without my

participation. You didn't want to be seen voting for something your heart

is not in. Let's be honest here. Look, many of your colleagues I have

interviewed say that if the choice was between the state -- the status

quo with the European Union and leaving, they would leave. The truth

is that you would vote to stay in even on the status quo, wouldn't

you? I haven't spent so long supporting the EU to leave now if I

got chance. I think our economy is much stronger than it would have

been if we were outside the EU. We have continued attracting

investment, as in Washington last week. We are trying to roll forward

the prospect of free trade and I have to reassure Americans that we

are not likely to leave the EU to make sure they will invest here.

That is true but it also needs reform. The cry for reform, which is

echoed in other countries, particularly Germany, is a good one.

Even if David Cameron came back with nothing from Brussels, you would

still vote to stay in, correct? Going off to be a small economy, and

one which is dwindling in comparison with others, in the modern world it

would be dangerous. I also think the dangers of the Middle East and the

dangers of some of the countries between EU and Russia are

considerable, we shouldn't disengage. I will take that as a

yes. I do think reform can strengthen the case, and of some

members of the public don't agree with me, I trust they will be

persuaded when David delivers his reforms. The latest poll gives

Labour a ten point lead over the Tories and the reason why it has a

ten point lead is because UKIP are up there with 18% of the vote and

ten point lead is because UKIP are the Tory vote has slumped in the

Paul to 27%. How would you see off UKIP? By saying you need a strong

Paul to 27%. How would you see off and effective Government. We faced

terrible problems. Every Government I have been in has been behind in

the polls. This Government is not as popular as the previous Government I

have served in under the three previous prime ministers. When you

get an election, people have to ask themselves who do we want to decide

the issues of war and peace in this country? Who do we want to get us

out of our economic problems. I don't think Ed Miliband is up to it.

That generalised stuff will not see off UKIP. People will not listen to

that. When people answer an opinion poll, they tell you how annoyed they

are by something that has recently upset them, but people are more

sensible than this. Every Government I have served in has been behind in

the polls. At a general election you have to mobilise the public to start

thinking, who do we want to govern us? They did take over a calamitous

situation, and there are very important problems to be decided

going forward. UKIP represents anti-immigration, anti-foreigners,

anti-Europe, anti-politics but I don't think it will get 18% of the

opinion -- the polls in any election.

Thank you. Once upon a time, a politician whose career ended in

disgrace might choose to lie low for a while, perhaps to spend a bit more

time tending the tulips and doing the odd bit of charity work. Not

Chris Huhne. He walked free from prison only five months ago but the

former Energy Secretary is already back in the public eye - a column in

the Guardian, a job with a renewable energy firm, even the odd TV

interview. So is he working on a political rehabilitation? Chris

Huhne, welcome to the Sunday Politics. The answer to that is

clearly know, and thank you for inviting me back. You have set your

career in politics is over so what does the future hold for you? I am

happy doing what I am doing, I am passionate about green energy and

climate change, so I am doing things on that front in terms of business

and work for think tanks and non-governmental organisations, and

I am doing a column for the Guardian on Mondays. You obviously get a lot

of material from the Sunday Politics to write about. Have you embarked on

political rehabilitation? It was clear from the point of view of the

political rehabilitation? It was George when I was sentenced, he

said, this is not about rehabilitating you, because I had

not offended for ten years, it was actually about stopping people like

not offended for ten years, it was you, Andrew, Ron doing the same

thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why the

prosecution was brought. I had not offended for ten years on this,

either in terms of speeding points... But you are out to

rehabilitate yourself in the public? I have been a journalist,

rehabilitate yourself in the public? coalition to the bitter end? Or

should they re-establish their own identity? My view is that the

Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are

going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib

Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, 15 seats? I think it will be an

interesting election because I think you will have essentially three

party leaders, all of whom are unpopular. It is almost

unprecedented that they have negative ratings so it will be a

battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,

the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't

you? It is far too early to say. If the Liberal Democrats do badly in

next year's European elections, you could come fourth on fifth behind

the Greens. Will Nick Clegg's leadership be in jeopardy? I've been

in countless cycles where we've had very low poll ratings. The normal

pickup to the subsequent general election on average has been 10

percentage points. So he's not in jeopardy? I think Nick will be there

at the next general election. I think he'll lead the party into the

next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most

people think. If we are heading for another hung Parliament, which is

what the Liberal Democrats want. Let's be honest, you'd rather be in

coalition with the Labour Party than have a repeat of the Conservatives?

One of the key things I sawed to colleagues, whatever your personal

preference, I used to be a Labour Party member, you can derive from

that I'm on the left of centre of the party. I always said to my

colleagues in the party, it is absolutely

colleagues in the party, it is the we are in politics because we

are Liberal Democrats, not because we are either Conservatives or

second best Labour. If you don't take that view, you don't have any

bargaining position when it comes to coalition. You have to be able,

genuinely, to do a coalition with either of the other parties. I

understand that, but you'd prefer Labour? Your personal preference

really should not come into this. It is about making sure you get the

best possible deal for the things that your voters have voted for. If

you get that with one party rather than another, that's fine. You stand

up for Liberal Democrat values, not for Conservative or Labour second

best values. You said you're keeping up your interest in energy matters.

Is Ed Miliband right to promise a temporary price freeze? There's been

pop ewe louse posturing. It is not a sensible policy. It was tried in

California in 2,000 and 2001 which led to blackouts. We had the Prime

Minister promising we should sift everybody automatically to the

lowest possible tariff. So unfortunately we're at the stage in

the political cycle where we are getting clap trap. You're against

the freeze? It is a bad idea when we are trying to encourage investment.

When the market can give us some of the lowest gas and electricity

prices in Europe. Britain has son-in-law of the lowest? Not our

prices in Europe. Britain has base price? The other European Ian

prices are only higher because they put a lot more taxes on to it? Our

base energy prices are among the highest in Europe? No, if you look

at EU comparisons in what goes out to people's households. That's after

all the taxes have been put on them? to people's households. That's after

. The Conservatives are claiming there are

people. Why not cut some of these taxes and make

people. Why not cut some of these nones sense. It is coming

people. Why not cut some of these people like George Osborne who

people. Why not cut some of these should no better. One the-hip ok

people. Why not cut some of these about this is one person who added

green taxes is George Osborne with the carbon floor, You supported

green taxes is George Osborne with that? We put it into the coalition

green taxes is George Osborne with agreement because the Conservatives

green taxes is George Osborne with not want it. We do not need it to

drive decarbonisation of the not want it. We do not need it to

electricity system. It was a revenue raising measure by the Tories. It

set off a whole load of hairs about green taxes which are now coming

home to roost. Final point to you, wish we'd more time to talk, you're

a big supporter of Leveson-style press regulation. Will you stop

writing for The Guardian if it refuses to sign up to the Leveson

charter? I think that's neither here nor there. The Guardian gives me a

great platform. If it doesn't sign up to what you believe in will you

support it? No because I'm sure they'll allow me to make that that

point. I think newspapers will sign up for it. They've had a collapse in

public trust and confidence in recent years. Unparalleled. They

need a third party endorsement to say these guys have cleaned up their

act. If they are going to get trust back and they will. When they

haven't signed up, which they won't, you can come back and we'll talk

about it. You're watching the Sunday politics.

Coming up in about 20 minutes, we'll talk

Do Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

We'll hear from Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood on her policies on lower

energy bills and a tax on sugary drinks.

And former Labour Foreign Secretary Jack Straw tells me his grave

concerns over the Guardian newspaper's publication of leaked

surveillance information. Joining me throughout today's

programme are the Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood and the Liberal Democrat

AM William Powell. I'm sure both of you will have heard

the First Minister speaking on our sister programme criticising the UK

Government for lack of response on this old recommendations on future

funding of the assembly. He is very strong terms, Wales would be at a

competitive disadvantage and it would be a disaster if these

recommendations are brought forward. What is your response? To

be honest, I've got a lot of sympathy with what was said. I was

pleased to hear him say quite clearly that he recognises the

contribution Lib Dem ministers within the coalition are doing to

try to promote this, because the kind of hiatus we got at the moment

is extremely unhelpful for business confidence. I'm very hopeful that

the appointment of Alistair Carmichael as Scottish Secretary may

help to give additional impetus to what we can do that, because it's

currently not acceptable. Leanne, does this suggest to you that the

tide is changing and that we're not going to see legislation from the UK

Government this side of the general election? Well, if that happens, it

will be a disaster. We've got grave problems in the Welsh economy. We

need the tools to turn around. The Labour government are taking a pick

and mix approach to the sub commission recommendations. They are

meant to be implemented in full and really without delay. So it is

incumbent upon the Welsh government to put forward that case in the

strongest possible terms, not just for some taxes, for the whole

package as proposed by the subcommission. You won't convinced

that that is what Colin Jones wants this morning? No, he avoided the

question about Labour commitments in the 2015 manifesto and he's avoided

that question with me a number of times. You've been working with the

Lib Dems this week, you will be pleased that Nick Clegg essentially

blamed the Conservatives for not implementing this sooner. They're

going to need to sort that out among themselves in London. If the Lib

Dems can't get things through them they need to consider their own

position in terms of the influence they got. I would say it's a problem

for them. This possibly highlights the Lib Dems situation in the

coalition as a whole, unable to have too much of an impact over the

Conservatives. I think conservatives -- coalitions are always problematic

and we don't have a tradition of coalitions in this country. Many

successful coalitions in Europe have a strong tradition of parties coming

together and working in the national interest. I think that is what we

trying to do and we succeeding in many areas. In others, it is not as

great as we would wish it to be. Perhaps they could take an example

from the Wales government, which was an effective partnership approach as

opposed to one big party and a smaller one. We may come onto that

later. For the time being, we will leave it there.

The conference season for Welsh politicians drew to a close

yesterday when Plaid Cymru wrapped up their autumn gathering in

Aberystwyth. Leanne Wood grabbed to headlines with pledges to cut energy

bills and employ 1,000 doctors through a tax on sugary drinks. I'll

explore some of those policies with the party leader in a moment, but

first here's our political editor Nick Servini's thoughts on the

conference. Plaid Cymru wants to take Wales from

the bottom to the top. Putting Wales first four is is not just a

statement of our priorities, it is a statement of our ambition. It is now

time to turn that historic ambition into this, our new reality. It's a

long time to go before the next assembly elections. So it was by

common consent a lot of surprise that in Leanne Wood's speech there

were a lot of policy announcements. The main one is a not-for-profit

organisation that would buy gas and electricity at wholesale prices and

sell them on to Welsh consumers at lower prices. It is feasible, it's

been done in other areas, and it certainly taps into the concern many

have about the price of their gas and electricity bills. People in

Wales pay more for their electricity than customers in England and

Scotland. How is that fair? It isn't. Our country produces more

electricity than it uses, but we are powerless. The other policy is a

levy on sugary drinks. On this one, they are on less sure ground. It

would need a change to the taxation system and I think it leads the

party open to accusations that, at a time when there is fundamental

change going on in the NHS, this gives the impression of being a bit

of a gimmick. The Welsh government I will lead will introduce a sugary

drinks levy of up to 20p per litre. We will employ 1000 more doctors

with the money raised, bringing Wales up to the UK average and

reducing the need to take services further away from people. It was

quite a left-wing speech, appealing to the socialist credentials of

Leanne Wood. It is obviously gone down well at the conference. The big

question - will levy support outside the core voters of the party?

Nobody will argue with cheaper energy prices. From a political

point of view, there is no election the 2.5 years. Have you perhaps

jumped the gun introducing this so early? We wanted to communicate at

the kind of government people in Wales could have following a

successful Plaid Cymru victory in 2016. A range of policies I

announced in that speech start to build a picture of what that

government will look like. I think what we want to leave the impression

with people is that we've got bold ideas, exciting ideas, and a lot of

plans of things that we could do to turn around the Welsh economy, which

I've said is my top priority. I heard you speaking on the radio this

morning, essentially saying that energy companies taking big profits

from customers in Wales and elsewhere, is this about bashing

them and clamping down on profit as if it is a dirty world -- word?

Well, the profits of the big six have risen massively and it is

people that about a paper that out of their pockets. We all know the

cost of living is rising far faster than wages and incomes. The ability

for people to make ends meet is decreasing on an ongoing basis. How

much will people save? They will save, will they? They will, because

you are removing that profit element. The profit per household is

not extreme. I think any £1000 bill the profits might only be £50 to the

energy companies. The overall profits of the energy companies are

very substantial and what we can do with an -- with a Welsh energy

company isn't arm's-length company like the model set up for Welsh

water could bulk buy electricity and sell it on to businesses and

consumers for cheaper, reducing bills quite substantially, we think.

The other point of course is the VAT on fuel could be kept low. Sugary

drinks tax, Nick suggesting it could be seen as a gimmick. Essentially,

the money this could raise you say would pay for 1000 doctors. I've

seen recently a lot of discussion as to where those 1000 doctors would

come from. On the radio this morning, you said maybe it is not

entirely possible we could get 1000 doctors. We have to accept that have

been difficulties in recruitment throughout the NHS. But Plaid Cymru

would argue not enough effort has gone into recruiting doctors and

much more effort could be made, and the small example is that we've seen

where health boards have gone to other countries to recruit doctors,

that has been an element of success. So were confident they

could be some recruitment on a temporary basis, but over the long

were going to need to train our doctors here and introduce

incentives to keep them here. There are examples from countries like New

Zealand where you can pay tuition fees in order to enable doctors to

remain. What is the main motivation? Is it getting an easy

headline with the sugary drinks idea, which then masks the bigger

issue of recruiting more doctors? The policy is twofold. The main

reason we want to introduce it is to tackle the obesity at the Deming,

which is a big problem in Wales. -- obesity epidemic. We want to reduce

consumption of sugary drinks and that would be a fantastic outcome

for this policy. If it does raise some money, that could go towards

the recruitment of additional money -- doctors, but if it doesn't, we

can find the money elsewhere in the budget. We've just agreed a deal

with the Lib Dems for £100 million. These doctors would cost between 50

and £60 million. So were confident one way or another we can achieve

it. Now, let's talk about the future if you both become one coalition

party in the future. These are the main policies going into Plaid Cymru

for the main election. You need to work together if there is to be a

coalition. What do you make of these announcements? Well, potentially

there is a lot of merit. Certainly, my party has been very supportive of

the Welsh water model, and recently I've taken apart in the energy and

sustainability committee looking at the whole structure of the water

industry in Wales, and we've seen the merit that that has.

Potentially, this could translate to something which would be a benefit

to families across Wales. But the detail needs to be worked up and we

need to see that before we can be confident that it is the way

forward. But I certainly think we should give the proposals a chance,

I want to hear more. As a liberal, sugary drinks, where do you stand on

that one? I think that proposal is more problematic, there are

significant issues regarding whether or not such attacks would actually

be feasible and deliverable. -- such a tax. I'm not even convinced that

as it currently stands the legislation would enable attacks on

sugary drinks to come forward. There is a suggestion within the

recommendations, page 77, I think you mentioned it. You'd think it is

possible or you would not have suggested it. The sub commission

says there is this possibility to introduce innovative taxes and they

gave the sugary drinks levy is one example of those taxes. What else? A

chocolate tax? Well, I wouldn't rule out taxing junk food. What I would

want to do with any additional monies raised from that is to ensure

that good quality wholesome food can be provided cheaper and everywhere

the people, because that is a big problem at the moment. It's a crazy

situation that you can buy poor quality food, food that is bad for

you and more likely to make you abuse, then you can good quality

food in many parts of Wales. That is a ridiculous situation. So you're

not ruling out the possibility that any Plaid Cymru party in the future

could put a tax on our burgers? Every government everywhere uses

taxes to incentivise and dis- incentivise behaviour. So I do think

something needs to be done about the proliferation of fast food in our

communities. There are far too many outlets. It is too easy and too

cheap. I may have given you an insight into my diet! A sharp take

of -- a sharp intake of breath that from you. Well, there is certainly

merit in looking into a raft of proposals to improve diet. The

committee last year was looking at a petition to create a kind of cord

and around all schools to ban take aways. -- a cordon around schools.

Now, a visit to garden by the former Labour Cabinet minister Jack Straw.

He was in the capital to give a speech.

I met up with him in the capital and he told me he had not expected

parliament to vote against supporting military action against

Syria back in August. All of us were surprised that there was such

strength of feeling. We know about it from our side, but on the other

side as well. It has had a remarkable, beneficial impact. First

of all, contrary to the idea that the UK is aways in poodle for the

US, what it triggered was the reverse. What we did really took the

lead of public opinion in the US. President Obama was generous enough

to admit that if the British Parliament had had second thoughts

about this, he was going to have to put it to Congress, and it turned

out that if he did put it to Congress, he would lose the vote.

That then is the way for improved relations with the Russians. Always

been crucial here. And in turn, it leads the way for private diplomacy

with the Iranians. I also asked Mr Straw what he made of comments made

by Andrew Parker, the head of MI5, he suggested published information

linked to the Guardian newspaper was helping terrorists. I think the head

of the Security service has been absolutely right to say what he

said. I regret what I can only decide that might describe as

indulgent irresponsibility by the Guardian. You can always justify

anything if you are a newspaper on the grounds of open journalism. But

this is about much more than that. It is about how we protect the

national interest. That is not just about protecting the establishment,

it is about keeping people safe, avoiding any other 7th of July 2005.

It risked lives then, you think? Well, I'm not suggesting anybody at

the Guardian gratuitously one * anyone's life. But I do think their

sense of power at having these secrets and their excitement has

gone to the head. They are blinding themselves about the consequences.

And also showing an extraordinary naivete and arrogance in implying

that they are in a position to judge whether or not particularly secrets

which they publish are likely to damage the national interest or not.

They are not in any position at all to do that. William Powell, those

are his views. Your party is in government, two of those ministers

have disagreed. Vince Cable not so much. Where do you stand? I think

Vince and Nick have both taken the position that we need to get more

clarity and oversight over our security services and I think that

is really important. That is a view that was taken up on Friday night by

Hillary Clinton when she spoke at Chatham house. To be frank, I'm not

very interested in being lectured by Jack Straw on Civil Liberties and

related matters. And indeed national security matters, given his part

less than a decade ago in leading us into an illegal war that is done

more to harm the national security of this country than anything

related to the Snowdon revelations. I really find that less than

interesting and I think we need to appreciate what the Guardian has

done. I do agree with Vince Cable that it has actually carried out an

important public service in making these revelations. Jack Straw also

spoke about Syria. There was a section in your speech on Friday

where you were claiming that Plaid Cymru and others tipped the balance.

Yes, it was as the SNP votes that were in that moment the decisive

factors between and peace. I'm very proud of the role that our team

played in that. The reverberations have rung around the world sense

from Washington to Tehran. We could be in a much more difficult

situation now, potentially a world War three situation, had backed law

not gone the way it did. Now, time for a round-up of the news

in 60 seconds. Shadow rural affairs Minister

Antoinette Sandbach called wide ban on the sale of sky lanterns. She

said they posed a risk to farm animals and wildlife.

The Welsh government bails -- favours local authorities having a

ban. The leader of a Council said

hundreds of jobs could be lost at the local authority as a result of

the Welsh government's draft budget. The Welsh government said it had

commissioned the impact of UK Government cuts in the last three

years. The finance minister said funding would be cut by almost 6%

next year. Some councils could go bust because

of the cuts. And a Lib Dem MP was promoted to

Business Minister. Labour's Baroness Morgan joined the opposition front

bench in the laws. The Labour leaders is in ears in the Commons.

-- eyes and ears. Have you got any plans for a

reshuffle? Not now. Councils will hear this week exactly how much

money they will be getting. Russell Goodway said it could be

catastrophic than some. What are you expecting? It is going to be grim,

no doubt about it. The settlement the Westminster government is giving

to the assembly is appalling and that obviously has a knock-on

effect. Do you think the Welsh government's hands are tied on their

spending? They had to make cuts and this is the place to do it? Well, it

has no say and cannot challenge in any way the settlement that is

decided in Westminster for Wales. To be honest, that is a very concerning

situation. We are impotent as politicians in Wales to defend the

national assembly against that. That is part of the reason why we need to

build resilience into our system. That is the first chink I've seen

between you. Your government in Westminster thinks differently.

Well, we understand the environment in which we are operating. It is my

belief the Welsh government has cushioned local government in the

last couple of years against the worst of the effects, and English

councils have been confronted with very stark choices over a number of

years. One particular danger is either local government is around

the issue of redundancies. If you have redundancy packages offered,

very often it is not the people that you might be able to spare to go,

and there is a knowledge capital there in some of our local

authorities that is very much abstract if you have key people

leaving. -- very much at threat. Very briefly from both of you, with

both done a deal with the government over the budget, but when it comes

to the boat, Wilbur Wright -- will Plaid Cymru be endorsing it? We will

be abstaining. I'm not absolutely certain

to Andrew. Ed Miliband reshuffled his

ministerial team this week with some commentators calling it the purge of

the Blairites, but one poor lamb who fell victim to this perch was Diane

Abbott, not somebody who worshipped at the altar of Tony Blair. Life on

the backbenches means she can pursue other interests such as attending

the Cheltenham literary Festival, and where she joins us now. Welcome.

Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He talked about message discipline. I

think the thing that did it for them was me coming out on Syria. This was

think the thing that did it for them a purge of the Blairites, how did

you become collateral damage? I have no idea but the fact that I was the

one member of the front bench to go public about my concerns on Syria

one member of the front bench to go probably tipped my enemies in the

party machinery over the edge. But he went your way on Syria, in the

end he agreed with your line on Syria so why would that be for

dismissal? I agree with you - you're fired. Because I actually spoke up

and it was the fact that I spoke up, fired. Because I actually spoke up

which was like a pebble falling in a forest or something. I am glad I

spoke up on Syria. He doesn't like people around them than who are

outspoken, who speak their minds? I think he's convinced he needs people

who read from the scripts. People get scripted and people were

increasingly upset that even though get scripted and people were

I was speaking party policy, I was reading from the script. Since Mr

Miliband bid you farewell, you've said he's doing his best. Is his

best good enough? I am sure it will be. I've always said the Labour

Party chose the right Miliband. I will remain loyal to him on the

backbenches. You're going to be loyal? However, I want to join in

the debate. You're going to be loyal? Absolutely. I was loyal both

in public and private when others were bitching about him behind the

scenes. When it comes to policy, from the backbenches, I hope to be

involved in the debate particularly around nick policy. Et's see how

loyal you are. You must be happy with all this new tough talk on

welfare and free schools? Well, I think both Rachel and Tristram are

very talented. We're going to have to see how this all plays out. The

issue of free schools, they are one thing. But diminishing the role of

local authorities is another. There are a lot of group of childrens,

particularly with special needs, who need strong local authorities. I'm

particularly with special needs, who sure Tristram will be aware of that.

As for welfare, I'm sure Rachel knows some of the cuts the Tories

have made have been counter prod ublingtive in -- productive in terms

of spending. You wouldn't call that your full-hearted endorsement, would

you? What are you on, and lieu? I haven't seen the detail of Rachel's

new position. You have to wait and see the detail. It is in the papers.

You haven't stopped reading the papers. It was the Observer. When

will you announce you're running for Mayor of London? I have no plans to

announce that I'm running for Mayor Mayor of London? I have no plans to

of London. No plans. That's what Michael his I will Tyne used to tell

me. He had no plans to run against Margaret Thatcher. Are these the

same kind of plans you have? I know. No, no. I have no plans. You know

you're going for it. I know you're going for it. Everybody knows you're

going for it. Just fess up to your old mate! ! I have no plans to run.

If you did run, who would be, what would be your biggest threat other

than yourself? I think there's a lot of very talented candidates, David

Lammy, Tessa Jowell, Sadiq Khan. They are all talented. I would have

to weigh up the field. What do you think your chances would be of

getting the taxi drivers' vote? Well, you know, Andrew, some of our

most loyal viewers of This Week and were taxi drivers and their wives.

I'm not frightened of reaching out to middle England. You will find if

you walk around London sub usual ya, they all know me and they all love

This Week. Love This Week. I thought you were going to say they all love

you. One person who loves you, is Michael Portillo. He wasn't a happy

chappie on Thursday night. You can't see it but you can hear. This is

what he said. I was disappointed for her. She had decided to leave this

great programme to go and do something else in politics. She

wanted to do something serious. She had taken what appeared to be a low

position but taken it extremely serious and was committed to the

issues. I'm quite disappointed for her. Why would Ed Miliband do such a

thing. You just mentioned about London mayor, did Diane not ask to

step down? No, she got fired. Someone who's an eminent person on

this programme, I don't know how he could do that. I think Michael's

this programme, I don't know how he missing you. Are you free this

Thursday night? Make him a happy man, come back to the fold. I think

I may be free this Thursday night. So, if he'll have me, I'll be there.

My people will speak to your people. We'll get it sorted out. Diane,

watch that big vase behind you, you're not insured for. That thanks

for being with us. Does she have a chance of being

Mayor of London? She's very well known as Michael pointed out. That

is important. People who are outside known as Michael pointed out. That

the party fold have traditionally done well in the mayoral election.

The job of being a London mayor is running an economy the size of a

nation. It is a very serious job. There may be problems with her

campaign. We're agreed she is running? That was a transparent bid

for it. She's potentially a very compelling Coll ticks. People have

her down as a London Borough left-winger but she's quite tough

and conservative. Michael Gove said he had fallen in love with Diane

which That's one vote he has. What do you think? I thing about Diane

Abbott is she has a fantastic way of connecting. She has a really good

way of connecting wi people. She would be a very strong candidate in

the contest to be the Labour candidate. It will probably be a

Labour win next time. Depends, if Labour wins the 2015 election it may

be more difficult. There's a danger for Labour that Diane is the big

personality liked by the party activists that wins the party

primary but isn't necessarily a shoe in come the London general election?

That's true. London is traditionally a Labour city. But Boris managed to

win as an outsider. There are big dangers for Labour with that. I

think, as I said before, somebody who seems a bit independent from

their own party machinery tend to do well. Londoners respond to that.

We've only had mayors so far that were independent? Indeed. And how

well Ken Livingstone did last time. Not that far behind bar Is Johnson.

He was and is much more left-wing than Diane Abbott. Diane didn't just

stray on Syria, it was immigration. Why was Jeremy brown replaced by

Norman Baker at the Home Office? This is very much to do with Clegg

deciding he has to go back to those people who abandoned the Liberal

Democrats the day they went into coalition with the Conservatives

really, and convince them there are some holy areas of policy, sacred

areas which they will defend. That includes civil liberties. In the

Home Office, that incident with the immigration vans went down very

badly across the whole nation. Went down particularly badly with Liberal

Democrats and voters. In the Home down particularly badly with Liberal

Office it is crucial you have somebody there to put a shield on

that. We've had fun at his appointment, there's a proper

purpose behind it. And Nick Clegg has won the argument against the

left, Vince Cable on the economy, away day in July, briefings say

DrCable's been put in his box. He's won the argument on economic policy

against the left. When it comes to the touchstone issue in the Home

Office, he wants to shore up that vote on the left. And please The

Guardian. This is important for Liberal Democrat voters. T's

something else going on which is that Nick Clegg has to keep his

parliamentary party happy. That involves giving them ministerial

jobs. A lot of Liberal Democrats losing their jobs, Michael Moore,

Jeremy Browne, are Lunn lucky because vacancies have to be created

for number people to come in. By 2015 an astonishing number of

Liberal Democrat MPs will have been on the payroll. It is effective

party management. I want to move on to press regulation. Brian Leveson's

party management. I want to move on famous report, appeared before the

party management. I want to move on parliamentary select committee. I

will run you a clip from Connor Burns, out of the Westminster

consensus. I bitterly regret politicians got involved in this. We

moved away from the press 300 years ago. The centr commitment is Lord

Leveson wanted a system the press took a lead on. Voluntary

self-regulation. This is state involvement which I worry about

profoundly. He sits on the media involvement which I worry about

select committee which does interviews and investigations into

the media. Chris Huhne said earlier he thought all the newspapers would

sign up to the Government-backed Royal Charter. I think he's totally

wrong. I think he thinks they should. But he did say they would. I

think he's wrong. They won't sign up. All the mood music when that

Royal Charter was agreed on Friday was they would not sign up. It is

interesting that the Government, Maria Miller, is essentially saying

to the press industry, if you don't sign up, the Royal charter will go

ahead. I cannot control the Labour sign up, the Royal charter will go

Party and the Liberal Democrats. What you might do, she's saying, the

industry is wind the clock back to what they are calling the Puttnam

stage. That was earlier this year, Lord Puttnam was tack amendments

which would introduce statutory regulation. Maria Miller says you

may not like this sort of regulation, stat industry --

statutory legislation but if you don't sign up to this, it will be a

lot worse. Will that work? Playing the good cop, bad cop routine? Will

that pressurise everyone to sign up. Lots of people are saying this will

be a club with no members. It won't work. As Nick and I broke the story

last week that the Government was going to reject the newspaper-backed

one, I'm certain that the newspapers now, most of them maybe, not all,

but most, will go the legal route and to judicial review on what the

Government's proposing and will take it to strains Bowring where freedom

of the press is enshrined. They will fight this? There is enough fury

of the press is enshrined. They will amongst Fleet Street to result in

that. The big political question going forward is which of the party

leaders does the press blame the most for the emergence of press

regulation? The Tories are very confident they'll blame Ed Miliband

the most. They'll target him before 2015. David Cameron gave us Brian

Leveson. You appoint a judge who loves rules, anti-press, you

shouldn't be surprised with what you got in the Leveson report? I big

chunk of press will look at David Cameron saying, you were the guy who

opened this. You may not have intended what will happen. If he had

a majority Government he wouldn't have appointed Brian Leveson. If

they face more punitive fines over Labour ale cases they take that to

Europe. The Daily Mail and the tallest presumably will have to

suspend their campaign of Britain to leave the European Convention of

Human Rights. They'll have to suspend that. We must never come out

of the European Convention. Churchill was behind it. He was

indeed. But it is actually a major constitutional issue whether you

regulate the press or not. There was constitutional issue whether you

a lot of ill feeling that this Marie ya miller statement was snubbing out

on Friday afternoon. Somebody said freedom of the press too important

to sneak out on afully afternoon. The whole subject should be treated

with respect. We've run out of time. I'll be back next Sunday with the

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles at our usual time of 11.00am. If

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles it's Sunday, it is the Sunday

politics.