03/11/2013 Sunday Politics Wales


03/11/2013

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

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Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

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MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

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the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

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capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

:01:08.:01:12.

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

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sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

:01:18.:01:18.

Later in the programme: Carwyn Jones should be covered up.

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Later in the programme: Carwyn Jones says a referendum to devolve powers

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over income tax can't happen unti the Treasury reforms the way it

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funds the UK nations and regions. Just

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authority is investigating -- investing thousands of pounds in a

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GPS tracking system to keep tabs on its staff.

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With me as always, the best and the brightest political panel, Helen

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Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who will be tweeting their

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humiliating climb-down is what they got wrong last week in the

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programme. If this can happen it to a Cabinet minister, what hope is

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there for anyone else? Thus the Home Affairs Select Committee concluded

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what many already thought about the treatment of Andrew Mitchell by

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three self-styled PC plebs. They met him to clear the air over what did

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or did not happen when he was prevented from ramming his bike

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through the Downing Street gates. But the officers gave the media and

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inaccurate account of that meeting. Two of them are even accused of

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misleading the Commons committee. The Independent Police Complaints

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Commission will now reopen there enquiry. This is not a story about

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Andrew Mitchell, it is about the police. Keith Vaz is often in high

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dudgeon and this is the highest dad and I have seen him in for some

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time. They could be held for contempt of Parliament and

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technically they could be sent to prison. It has blown up into an

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enormous story. I do not know what is worse, the police trying to

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stitch up a Cabinet member and try to mislead the media or the

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incompetence they have done it from day one. That is quite good. I would

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sleep more soundly at night if I knew the pleas were good at this. It

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is the incompetence that shocks me. And this is just a sideshow. We are

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still waiting on the main report as to what exactly happened outside

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Downing Street gates. But that not will be good for the police either.

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The file has gone from the Metropolitan police to the CPS, so

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we are limited about what we can say. This is about the police

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Federation. They were set up under statute in 1990 as a deal in which a

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police would not go on strike. This is a political campaign to get a

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Cabinet minister out and the legacy of this is the police Federation

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will have to be reformed. We will keep an eye on it. They were Ed

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Miliband's union backers, they swung the Labour leadership for him in

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2010. Now the Unite union looks like his biggest headache. The Sunday

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Times has seen extracts of the report into the alleged vote rigging

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to select a Labour candidate in Falkirk. There was evidence of

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coercion and Gregory as well as deliberate attempt to frustrate the

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enquiry. We will be speaking to Len McCluskey, the Unite union's General

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Secretary, in a moment. First out the saga began an almost ended up

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with the loss of 800 jobs at a petrochemical plant in Grangemouth.

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Unite were key players in the Grangemouth dispute and the union

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headed by Len McCluskey has come under fire for its intimidator Tariq

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tactics. In one instance demonstrators complete with an

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inflatable rat picketed the home of a INEOS director. The police were

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called. It was part of a strategy the union called leverage. But

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turning up at people's houses seems to represent an escalation. At the

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centre of the rout was Steve in deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS

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launched an investigation into him as he was suspected of using company

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time to engineer the selection of labour's candidate in Falkirk. That

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candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans

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resigned last week and denies any wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic

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climb-down by Unite union. Len McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to

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the Sunday Times we now know what is in this labour report on the Falkirk

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vote rigging. Forgery, coercion, trickery, manipulation. You must be

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ashamed of how Unite union behaved in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article

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is lazy journalism. There is nothing new in the article. This was all

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dealt with by the Labour Party in the summer. We rejected those

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allegations then and we said we had done nothing wrong and both the

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Labour Party and the police in Scotland indicated there had been no

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wrongdoing. The report itself says you were trying to thwart the

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investigation. First you tried to fix the selection of a candidate to

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get your woman in and then you thwarted the investigation into the

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dirty deeds. The reality is the Labour Party report was deeply

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flawed. The Labour Party then instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to

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do an in-depth investigation and during that investigation they got

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to the bottom of what had happened and they decided there was no

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wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I was so confident we had done

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nothing, I called for an independent enquiry. They were forced to

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conclude there was no wrongdoing because the people who originally

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complained changed their evidence and we now know they did so because

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Unite union officials helped them to rewrite their retraction and Stevie

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Deans approved it. That is not true. We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into

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the public arena and what is that all about? Who is leaking this? They

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showed the Unite union was rewriting the retractions. This interview

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would go a lot better if you are allowed me to finish the question

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that you asked. These e-mails were put into the public arena by the PR

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company from INEOS. Why are they doing this? The truth of the matter

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is that all of the investigations that took place demonstrate there

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was nothing to answer. This idea that the Unite union has rewritten

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and the evidence from the families has been withdrawn, the families are

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a part of Stevie deems' family. They clarified the position. Do you deny

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that union officials were involved in the retractions? I deny it

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completely. This is important. Independent solicitors to witness

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statements from the family and they are the ones that were influencing

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the Labour Party with the position is clarified and there is no case to

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answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw their retractions? It is his family.

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So you do not deny it? It is his family. This is an ordinary, decent

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family who were faced with the full weight of the pleas, a forensic

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solicitor. Of course they spoke to Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a

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cesspit. Does it not need an independent investigation? This is a

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trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all the

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demands. The media, the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, the Conservative

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mouthpiece, they are laying tracks for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband

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should not fall into them. Since when did it become part of an

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industrial dispute to send mobs to the home of company families. This

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is a legitimate form of protest and it is a silent protest. We believe

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if faceless directors are making decisions that cripple communities,

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they cannot expect to simply drift back to their own leafy suburbia and

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not be countable. This is silent protest. It is lawful. It may be

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silent in Grangemouth, but it was not silent elsewhere. You went with

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a giant rat, loud-hailers telling everybody the neighbour was evil.

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No, we did not. You had loud-hailers, you even encouraged

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passing children in Grangemouth to join in. That is nonsense. Look at

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the rat. The reality is the Grangemouth community was going to

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be decimated, Grangemouth was going to become a ghost town. I reject

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totally this idea there were loud-hailers and children involved.

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That is a lie perpetrated by the Daily Mail. But you have used these

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tactics in other disputes. We have used the tactics in other disputes,

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but we have not used loud-hailers at people's homes. Because the labour

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laws are so restrictive we have to look at every available means that

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we can protest. It is an outrage, an absolute outrage, that this is

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happening to British workers in the 21st-century. It could not happen

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elsewhere. Is not intimidation the wider hallmark of your union? You

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were quoted as saying to do whatever it takes during your attempts to

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take over the Labour Falkirk constituency. You were instructing

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to dig out the nasty stuff on your opponents. That is not true. Let's

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see these e-mails? This is a con trick. Nobody is looking to dig

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out... This is the words of your legal services advisor. Unite has

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tried to instigate a revival of trade union values within the Labour

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Party. That is what Ed Miliband wanted us to do. As soon as we

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started to be in any way ineffective, there were screams and

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howls of derision. When the company started to investigate Stevie Deans,

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your friend, your campaign manager, that he was using company time to

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moonlight on the job, you called INEOS and said unless you stop the

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investigation we will bring Grangemouth to a standstill. I never

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said that at all. You brought it to a standstill. We never brought it to

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a standstill, the company did. Who says that I said that we would bring

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it to a standstill? You have read it in the newspapers. You should not

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believe everything. I did not make that threat to the management. You

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carried the threat out. You instigated an overtime ban and a

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work to rule. And that is what Grangemouth to a standstill because

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the company decided to close the petrochemical site down. Because

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Stevie Deans was suspended due introduced industrial action? Our

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members in Grangemouth felt he was being unfairly treated. In the end

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you're grandstanding almost cost Scotland is most important

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industrial facility. The day was saved by your total capitulation.

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Grandstanding, capitulation and humiliation are grand phrases. There

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is nothing about capitulation. Len McCluskey did not wake up one day

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and decide to have a dispute with INEOS. The workers in that factory

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democratically elect their shop stewards to represent them and to

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express to management their concerns and their views. That is what

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happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has condemned your union's handling of

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Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have you considered your position? Jack

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Straw and others in the Labour Party, you have to ask them what

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their agenda is. I am not interested in what he says. The truth of the

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matter is we responded to the requirements and needs of our

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members. At a mass meeting last Monday 100% supported their shop

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stewards and their union. We will continue to stand shoulder to

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shoulder with our members when they are faced with difficult situations.

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You have lost all the union rights. You have had to agree to a no strike

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rule, you have lost pension rights. We have not lost rights at all, we

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are still working with the company to implement its survival plan. The

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Prime Minister is always attacking unions and just lately he has taken

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to praising the automotive industry. Jaguar Land Rover,

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Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all Unite union members were the shop

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stewards are engaged positively to implement survival plans and to make

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a success for the company. That is what we do, but by the same token we

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stand shoulder to shoulder with our members who are in struggle and we

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will always do that and we will not be cowed by media attacks on us. Is

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your leadership not proving to be as disastrous for the members as Arthur

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Scargill was for the NUM? My membership is growing. I am

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accountable to my members, two are executive, and the one thing they

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will know is that when they want me standing shoulder to shoulder with

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them when they have a problem, I will be there, despite the

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disgraceful attacks launched on us by the media.

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"A country ready to welcome your investment which values your

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friendship and will never exclude anyone because of their race,

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religion, colour or creed." The words of the Prime minister at the

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World Islamic Economic Forum which was hosted for the first time in

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London this week. The PM's warm words are sure to be welcomed by

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British Muslims who have endured a spate of negative headlines. There's

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been the controversy over the wearing of the veil, attitudes to

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women, and the radicalisation of some young British Muslims. In a

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moment I'll be talking to the Secretary General of the Muslim

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Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. First - here's Giles Dilnot. The

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call to Friday prayers at the east London Mosque which has strong links

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with the Muslim Council of Britain, one of the more vocal groups amongst

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British Muslims. Despite the fact it frequently happens, it is neither

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helpful nor accurate to describe the British Muslim community. There are

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so many different sects, traditions, cultures and

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nationalities, it is more accurate to describe the British Muslim

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communities, but there is one question being put to them - are

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they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues? Are

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they willing to confront radicalisation, attitudes to

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non-muslins, two women, and cases of sexual exploitation in a meaningful

:18:29.:18:33.

way? A number of them say no, not nearly enough. This former jihad de

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has spent ten years telling young Muslim teenagers how they can reject

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extremist radicalisation, using Outward Bound courses and community

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work, but he and others doing this work thing -- think some elders are

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failing the youngsters. This has been going on for decades, one

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figures -- thing is said in public to please people but in private

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something very different is being said and the messages are being

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confused. Some of the young people, it pushes them further into a space

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where they are vulnerable for radical recruiters. For many Muslim

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youngsters, life is about living 1's faith within an increasingly secular

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society, a struggle not helped if rigid interpretations of the Koran

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are being preached, say some sectors. Some practices often don't

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make sense in 21st-century Britain, and you are perhaps creating

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obstacles if you stick to those and it is perhaps better to let go of

:19:59.:20:01.

those cultural problems, especially when they need to clear injustices

:20:02.:20:09.

like forced marriage, reticence to talk about grooming for example, or

:20:10.:20:13.

discrimination against women. There is a long list but I am very clear

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that in fact the bad Muslim is the one who sticks to unflinching,

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narrow dogmatic fundamentalist perception of religion. One issue

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often focused on is the wearing of minicab. Polling suggests 80% of

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Britons would favour a ban in public places. -- the niqab. Many people

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don't seem to recognise the legacy of the niqab. Many people preach

:20:57.:21:07.

that women should be sidelined and that they are sexual objects that

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should be covered up and the preservation of morality falls on

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their shoulders. The Muslim Council of Britain recently got praise for

:21:17.:21:20.

holding a conference on combating sexual exploitation. In the wake of

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abuse cases that had involved predominantly Pakistani men. For one

:21:27.:21:30.

man who has followed the story for some years, the Muslim Council of

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Britain needs to do much more. We need to get along together and if

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things like attitudes towards the normal slim girl in stark contrast

:21:44.:21:50.

to the expression of honour and chastity of the Muslim girl, your

:21:51.:21:54.

sister or daughter, are such that actions that would be an fought off

:21:55.:22:01.

with a slim girl becomes permissible with a white girl, then we are all

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in trouble. To some, attitudes to women are not limited to sexual

:22:08.:22:13.

interactions at the very structures of life in Muslim communities and

:22:14.:22:17.

indeed the Muslim Council of Britain itself. I would like to ask the

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Muslim Council of Britain what they are doing about the fact that very

:22:22.:22:28.

few mosques give voices to are doing about the fact that very

:22:29.:22:36.

the fact that someone women are experiencing female genital

:22:37.:22:38.

mutilation and forced marriages, what about the women who are getting

:22:39.:22:42.

married and their marriages are not being registered and they are being

:22:43.:22:47.

left homeless and denied maintenance rights, what about the fact there

:22:48.:22:51.

are sharia rights that have been found to be discriminating against

:22:52.:22:55.

women, and the fact there are men in this country who continue to hold

:22:56.:22:59.

misogynistic views about women, what are you doing? The occasional press

:23:00.:23:06.

release will not solve this problem of a deeply patriarchal community.

:23:07.:23:12.

That all of these issues can be exploited to the point of Islam

:23:13.:23:15.

phobia is not doubted, but many Muslims feel that unless the

:23:16.:23:21.

communities do tackle this openly, a big cultural gap will exist between

:23:22.:23:29.

the two. And the Secretary General of the

:23:30.:23:32.

Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, joins me now. One visible

:23:33.:23:36.

sign that sets muslins aside is the veils that cover women's faces. Do

:23:37.:23:45.

you think it makes them impossible to be part of mainstream society?

:23:46.:23:55.

The niqab is not an obligatory requirement. But do you accept that

:23:56.:23:59.

those who wear it are cutting themselves off from mainstream

:24:00.:24:05.

society? Some people do, and whilst wearing niqab, some of them are

:24:06.:24:15.

working in various walks of life successfully and it is seen as a

:24:16.:24:19.

faith requirement, but it is a red herring in the sense that it applies

:24:20.:24:24.

to such a small number of Muslim girls. For many Muslim preachers,

:24:25.:24:29.

isn't separation precisely the point of the niqab? Certainly not, if you

:24:30.:24:39.

look at the Muslim women in the public sphere, we have many very

:24:40.:24:44.

successful women. But not the ones who are veiled. Not in the public

:24:45.:24:55.

arena as such, but the veil is a practice which is practised by a

:24:56.:25:01.

very small number. Do you favour it? I personally think it is not a

:25:02.:25:07.

requirement. But do you think women should wear the veil? I think it is

:25:08.:25:12.

wrong to force women to wear the veil. I asked if in your opinion

:25:13.:25:18.

women should wear the veil? It is important not to force women to wear

:25:19.:25:25.

the veil. Should they of their free choice where the veil? A lot of

:25:26.:25:29.

individuals do things out of their free choice which I do not approve

:25:30.:25:34.

of, I don't think it is conducive it helps their cause, but I do not have

:25:35.:25:38.

the right to take their choice away from them. I am still unsure if you

:25:39.:25:43.

think it is a good thing or a bad thing. Are not many Muslim women in

:25:44.:25:49.

this country being forced by Muslim preachers and often their male

:25:50.:25:53.

relations who want to keep Muslim women their place? As I said, it is

:25:54.:25:58.

wrong for anyone to force Muslim women. But how would we ever know in

:25:59.:26:06.

a family if a woman was being forced? Exactly, we don't know what

:26:07.:26:13.

is going on in people 's homes and what pressure is being applied. I

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want you to look at this picture, very popular on Islamic websites,

:26:19.:26:22.

and it shows the women who is wearing the niqab having a straight

:26:23.:26:29.

route to heaven, and the other Muslim woman dressed in western gear

:26:30.:26:34.

condemned to hell. Do you consider that a proper message for Muslim

:26:35.:26:42.

women? Not at all, I don't. So any Islamic websites in Britain... The

:26:43.:26:48.

Muslim Council of Britain is an organisation of five affiliates from

:26:49.:26:51.

across the country and this is not coming from any of them. As I said,

:26:52.:26:57.

those minority views propagated by individuals should not be used to

:26:58.:27:03.

represent Muslim community. So that would not have the support of the

:27:04.:27:08.

Muslim Council of Britain? It would not have the support. What about the

:27:09.:27:12.

Muslim free school that requires children as young as 11 to wear a

:27:13.:27:26.

black veil outside of school? Do you agree with that? I am not sure

:27:27.:27:36.

exactly what the policy is... I have just told you, do you agree that

:27:37.:27:44.

girls as young as 11 should wear a black burka outside of school? I

:27:45.:27:50.

don't think it should be imposed on anybody. But this is the desired

:27:51.:28:02.

dress School of the Muslim females. I am asking for your view. I said it

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at the beginning that I do not think it should be imposed. Would you send

:28:08.:28:14.

your daughter to a school that would wear a black burka at the age of 11?

:28:15.:28:27.

Would you? No. It seems that some muslins are determined to segregate

:28:28.:28:31.

young Muslim girls right from the start to very early from society. It

:28:32.:28:38.

is not their segregation as such, I would say that there are faith

:28:39.:28:47.

schools, if you look at an Islamic girls school in Blackburn in a

:28:48.:28:50.

traditional setting, it has come the top of the league table this year in

:28:51.:28:57.

the secondary school league tables. But it doesn't make 11-year-olds

:28:58.:29:04.

wear black burkas. Many of those girls go on to have a successful

:29:05.:29:11.

career. Not wearing black burkas. I am sure there are examples of women

:29:12.:29:19.

who do have successful careers. There is a very conservative

:29:20.:29:21.

movement from the continent on Islam, and the issue supposedly

:29:22.:29:34.

based on Islamic law on their website. Here is one of their recent

:29:35.:29:42.

judgements. The female is encouraged to remain within the confines of her

:29:43.:29:45.

home as much as possible, she should not come out of the home without

:29:46.:29:49.

need and necessity. What do you think of that? We need to say the

:29:50.:29:56.

whole context of that quote. They are saying they should stay at home

:29:57.:29:59.

as much as possible, do you agree with that? I see many Muslim women

:30:00.:30:13.

who are walking about... But this is what the mosque is recommending

:30:14.:30:17.

women should do. The practice is quite the contrary. Let me show you

:30:18.:30:38.

another one. Another Fatwa. Do you agree with that? These have been

:30:39.:30:43.

picked out from material dating back to different cultural settings and

:30:44.:30:50.

in practice they are not applied. This is advice being given as we

:30:51.:30:57.

speak. This is not being practised. Do you agree with it? No, not at

:30:58.:31:04.

all. These are from the DL Monday mosques, how come 72 of these

:31:05.:31:08.

mosques are affiliated to your counsel? There may be publications

:31:09.:31:26.

from one of their scholars, but they have been written in countries

:31:27.:31:31.

abroad and translated. This is advice being given to young women

:31:32.:31:37.

now. They are affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain. Do you

:31:38.:31:43.

ever speak to them about that? The Muslim Council is a very broad

:31:44.:31:48.

organisation. We are working on lots of common issues to create a

:31:49.:31:53.

community which positively integrates. Did you ever speak to

:31:54.:32:02.

them to say this is not appropriate for British Muslims? There may be

:32:03.:32:09.

certain ad buys and publications available, but people make their

:32:10.:32:16.

choices. So it is OK for your organisation to issue things like

:32:17.:32:26.

that? Many of these things will fall under scrutiny and we need to create

:32:27.:32:35.

that. Why do only 26% of British mosques have facilities for women?

:32:36.:32:40.

If you go back to the requirement of prayer, it was not obligatory for

:32:41.:32:46.

women to come to the masks to prayer. When a poorer community

:32:47.:32:52.

began putting up mosques at the very beginning in terraced houses... Did

:32:53.:33:00.

you have a policy to encourage them? Is it on your website? It is in our

:33:01.:33:08.

practices that 20% of the council have to be female. Coming out of

:33:09.:33:16.

this movement there is a conscious stream of superiority between

:33:17.:33:23.

Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at this quote. He is a well-known

:33:24.:33:27.

picture in this country. That is what he wants to stop. I

:33:28.:33:51.

disagree with that. We believe we live in this society and Muslims in

:33:52.:33:59.

any society of the world, and they have historically lived as

:34:00.:34:05.

minorities in many countries... You would this associate yourself from

:34:06.:34:11.

that? Why do you allow people like that to be affiliated to you? The

:34:12.:34:18.

requirement is for any organisation to be affiliated is that they are

:34:19.:34:22.

bound by the Charity commission's rules and regulations. We only

:34:23.:34:27.

accept those who are under the law of this country. This is a matter of

:34:28.:34:35.

taste. Let me move on to a bigger issue. In 2009 you signed the

:34:36.:34:45.

Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul declaration was signed. Do you still

:34:46.:34:51.

support it? No, we never signed it or supported it. One of your leading

:34:52.:35:03.

lights signed it. In the media mainstream he defended his position.

:35:04.:35:08.

You have this associated yourself from it? What is wrong with that? I

:35:09.:35:16.

am not sure about the declaration because we disassociated ourselves.

:35:17.:35:23.

Before reading it? We did not sign it. You have not read it? I do not

:35:24.:35:32.

know all the aspects of the declaration, but at the time in the

:35:33.:35:38.

national newspapers and media there was a discussion and a debate and it

:35:39.:35:48.

was highlighted that that was not what was meant by the declaration.

:35:49.:35:55.

When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From

:35:56.:36:03.

day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are

:36:04.:36:08.

personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of

:36:09.:36:14.

extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the

:36:15.:36:25.

mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described

:36:26.:36:29.

by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another

:36:30.:36:33.

speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad

:36:34.:36:39.

is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop

:36:40.:36:43.

extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?

:36:44.:36:52.

We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or

:36:53.:36:58.

supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is

:36:59.:37:02.

a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is

:37:03.:37:08.

a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told

:37:09.:37:14.

their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to

:37:15.:37:19.

speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a

:37:20.:37:29.

Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did

:37:30.:37:36.

not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and

:37:37.:37:42.

have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I

:37:43.:37:51.

completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,

:37:52.:37:57.

the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the

:37:58.:38:02.

toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

:38:03.:38:07.

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

:38:08.:38:13.

non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which

:38:14.:38:21.

embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim

:38:22.:38:28.

community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which

:38:29.:38:33.

are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our

:38:34.:38:37.

view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The

:38:38.:38:44.

work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all

:38:45.:38:50.

associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are

:38:51.:38:55.

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke

:38:56.:39:06.

Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales: Carwyn Jones says a

:39:07.:39:11.

referendum to devolve powers over income tax can't happen until the

:39:12.:39:14.

Treasury reforms the way it funds the UK's nations and regions. We'll

:39:15.:39:18.

hear from Kirsty Williams, the leader of the Welsh Liberal

:39:19.:39:21.

Democrats, who's in our Cardiff newsroom, as opposition parties say

:39:22.:39:24.

the First Minister is refusing to take responsibility. And the Unite

:39:25.:39:29.

union unveils a new education complex aimed at improving workforce

:39:30.:39:33.

skills. We'll hear plenty from our guests here in the studio. Two

:39:34.:39:37.

Assembly Members, Labour's Julie Morgan and the Conservative,

:39:38.:39:42.

Antoinette Sandbach. Now firstly, Assembly Members, like many of us,

:39:43.:39:46.

have been on a half-term break this week which normally means that the

:39:47.:39:53.

Senedd is a very quiet place. But not this week. The Prime

:39:54.:39:56.

Minister and his deputy were in Cardiff aid to announce new

:39:57.:40:01.

financial powers. It includes the right to borrow money. There will be

:40:02.:40:09.

some tax raising powers. Those taxes are stamp duty and the landfill

:40:10.:40:13.

tax. They were all welcomed by the First Minister. The power to vary

:40:14.:40:20.

income tax is on the table as well. Carwyn Jones is not so keen on

:40:21.:40:26.

that. He feels Wales has been short-changed by ?300 million a year

:40:27.:40:29.

by the tragedy. He was the way to many is calculated to be reformed. I

:40:30.:40:40.

spoke to the former presiding officer and he offered his own

:40:41.:40:44.

solution to the funding problem. What we need is a body which is

:40:45.:40:49.

independent of UK Treasury, independent of the tragedies of the

:40:50.:40:52.

devolved government and they will be an objective formula agreed on the

:40:53.:40:58.

needs and therefore the level of subventions to be paid in block

:40:59.:41:04.

grants. That is the proper way to do it. That is called federalism.

:41:05.:41:16.

Let's explore some of those issues with Kirsty Williams, the leader of

:41:17.:41:19.

the Welsh Liberal Democrats who's in our Cardiff newsroom. Let's wind the

:41:20.:41:28.

clock back 48 hours. Your response to the announcements made by David

:41:29.:41:33.

Cameron and Nick Clegg. Very pleased indeed. The fact we have a Silk

:41:34.:41:39.

Commission is something we worked hard to get it into the coalition

:41:40.:41:43.

agreement. We had a bit of the challenge getting the commission

:41:44.:41:51.

opened running. -- and running. To have the Westminster government's

:41:52.:41:55.

positive response is good news. There has been a positive response

:41:56.:41:58.

from you and your party to what the Westminster government have

:41:59.:42:04.

suggested. Carwyn Jones is not so keen on the power to vary a portion

:42:05.:42:09.

of income tax at the moment. Wide you think he's not keen? I listen

:42:10.:42:15.

carefully to what the First Minister said to Nick Savini Friday night.

:42:16.:42:18.

What was so disappointing was when asked the question if Barnett

:42:19.:42:24.

Foreman was reformed, would he look to have that referendum on a

:42:25.:42:31.

devolution of income tax. The Labour Party is split on this issue. Some

:42:32.:42:39.

Assembly Members are keen to see these powers devolved but Labour MPs

:42:40.:42:47.

from Wales are not. I think the First Minister is genuinely

:42:48.:42:50.

concerned about having to take the rate of responsibility for the

:42:51.:42:53.

outcomes of this policy decisions here in Cardiff. It doesn't matter

:42:54.:42:58.

whether his policies succeed or fail in terms of finance he gets the

:42:59.:43:04.

money given to him by London. If you was responsible because of his

:43:05.:43:07.

policy interventions for erasing some of that money, he'd be more

:43:08.:43:10.

accountable when he does not things well. I think he is frightened and

:43:11.:43:17.

of that. I know Leanne Wood agrees and I think Andrew RT Davies has

:43:18.:43:23.

said something similar, but I saw Glyn Davies saying last night all

:43:24.:43:28.

the opposition parties should come together on this and depose Carwyn

:43:29.:43:32.

Jones. He needs to look carefully at the maths. It is not a question of

:43:33.:43:38.

deposing. The Labour is split equally, 30-30. On this issue it

:43:39.:43:47.

seems even the Conservatives are being more radical and more

:43:48.:43:51.

ambitious for Wales than the Welsh Labour government and the Welsh

:43:52.:43:56.

Labour Party. It is extraordinary to find a lead of it can to offered

:43:57.:44:01.

greater responsibility and not being keen to grasp them. The First

:44:02.:44:06.

Minister said on Friday this announcements by the Deputy first --

:44:07.:44:10.

Prime Minister and Prime Minister meant Wales will be taken seriously.

:44:11.:44:24.

But what he does say is until there is a fair funding system for Wales,

:44:25.:44:30.

he says and that the Barnett formula ?300 million shortfall for Wales.

:44:31.:44:34.

Until that is reformed that is no point going ahead. I accept that we

:44:35.:44:43.

need a change to the way in which Wales and the other countries and

:44:44.:44:47.

regions of the UK are funded. I wish Carwyn Jones would have said these

:44:48.:44:52.

things when the Labour Party were in government in Westminster. He has

:44:53.:44:54.

only decided we're not been treated fairly since the coalition

:44:55.:45:00.

government. As I said earlier, what is more depressing, because I agree

:45:01.:45:12.

that the offending formalin is to be changed, but even then if he was

:45:13.:45:24.

asked to move forward, he could not give a clear answer. I am

:45:25.:45:28.

disappointed by that. Let's get them reaction in the studio. Julie

:45:29.:45:33.

Morgan, accusations levelled at your party and the First Minister, Carwyn

:45:34.:45:39.

Jones. It is a pity we have got into a wrangle in this sort of way.

:45:40.:45:46.

Friday was a positive day. We, in the Labour Party, welcomed the

:45:47.:45:49.

opportunity to get borrowing powers, to get infrastructure projects

:45:50.:45:56.

going. That is very, very positive. The Welsh Government wants to look

:45:57.:45:59.

at the best interest of the people of Wales. Kirsty Williams suggested

:46:00.:46:04.

there was a split. Some Assembly Members would be happy for Carwyn

:46:05.:46:07.

Jones to go ahead with the referendum. I knew one of those? I

:46:08.:46:12.

would like a referendum but it is important we sort out the Barnett

:46:13.:46:15.

formula first. Wales does suffer under it. It is on a geographic

:46:16.:46:24.

basis not a needs basis. I welcome independent body to look at it. I

:46:25.:46:27.

don't know whether that will be acceptable to the coalition

:46:28.:46:31.

government. But it would be a good way forward. There is agreement

:46:32.:46:40.

among the opposition parties on this which is very rare in the Assembly.

:46:41.:46:45.

You agree that Carwyn Jones is not making the right decisions. I don't

:46:46.:46:52.

think he is accepting the level of responsibility or two. This gives

:46:53.:46:57.

them greater responsibility. We have heard a lot of talk about and for

:46:58.:47:02.

improvements. It is interesting after the announcement of borrowing

:47:03.:47:07.

powers for the first time, he talking about North Wales. He has

:47:08.:47:13.

realised there is a very big perception in the country that he is

:47:14.:47:16.

not delivering for the north and west of Wales or mid Wales.

:47:17.:47:20.

Resources are being concentrated in the south. Those are the kind of

:47:21.:47:26.

issues I am less concerned with funding from outside Wales, rather

:47:27.:47:31.

than fair funding within Wales. Those are the decisions that will

:47:32.:47:33.

come as a result of these announcements. The First Minister

:47:34.:47:41.

said this money could be used for a new bridge to Anglesey. That has

:47:42.:47:45.

been part of his infrastructure project for some time. We have not

:47:46.:47:50.

seen the level of investment in North Wales and has been in South

:47:51.:47:56.

Wales. That is where the level of accountability will come. It is

:47:57.:48:01.

important that if people are paying through their taxes for

:48:02.:48:04.

infrastructure development that benefits the whole of Wales and not

:48:05.:48:08.

just parts of Wales. Julie Morgan, come back on the idea that the First

:48:09.:48:15.

Minister is shirking his responsibility. He does not want

:48:16.:48:20.

this responsibility and using this idea of reform as a excuse. Labour

:48:21.:48:36.

is in control in Cardiff Bay, we are very keen to move ahead, to move

:48:37.:48:39.

ahead with trying to make things better. We want to do it in a

:48:40.:48:46.

responsible way. There is no question of not wanting to take

:48:47.:48:49.

responsibility. We have an opportunity to move forward and I

:48:50.:48:52.

hope the opposition parties. Carping on about an individual reaction that

:48:53.:48:59.

say how do we go forward. Kirsty Williams, just respond to that.

:49:00.:49:05.

Julie Morgan seems to say this is a random person 's reaction. This is

:49:06.:49:11.

the First Minister of Wales. He is saying that even if Barnett was

:49:12.:49:16.

reformed he could not guarantee to giving the choice to the Welsh

:49:17.:49:20.

people whether they want the Assembly to have those tax-raising

:49:21.:49:23.

powers. For me that is extraordinary. I agree with Carwyn

:49:24.:49:30.

Jones that we need to reform the Barnett formula, I wish he would

:49:31.:49:33.

have spoken about that sooner. Even when that is reformed, we had no

:49:34.:49:39.

clear steer from the First Minister he wanted the Welsh Government to

:49:40.:49:45.

have those powers. Spending in Wales, the amount of money available

:49:46.:49:51.

in Wales, was going off until 2010. But after that it has become obvious

:49:52.:50:00.

that the ballots for minis to be devised. There are real issues about

:50:01.:50:10.

policies are being delivered and whether real improvements are being

:50:11.:50:15.

made. Where there is to school responsibility there is

:50:16.:50:17.

accountability and that is what we have lacked through Welsh

:50:18.:50:24.

Government. I do see that. I don't think he wants it at all. I don't

:50:25.:50:29.

feel he is properly delivering for Wales, that he is using the money in

:50:30.:50:35.

the best way. I think we can argue and show now how we would use it

:50:36.:50:39.

differently and spend it better and more effectively. I would maintain

:50:40.:50:46.

the response from the people of Wales is the do feel a

:50:47.:50:48.

Labour-controlled government has delivered for Wales. When do you

:50:49.:50:52.

think we will see a referendum on income tax? I think we will see it.

:50:53.:50:59.

It will not in this term. Do you think it'll happen before 2020? I

:51:00.:51:04.

think we will have it by 2020 but we will have two sort the Barnett

:51:05.:51:11.

formula out first. We want to use this opportunity to make sure that

:51:12.:51:15.

we can improve things. Let's go to Kirsty Williams. What we have got is

:51:16.:51:21.

the opportunity for Wales to grasp the powers over its future destiny

:51:22.:51:26.

and stop it is extraordinary we have a First Minister of Wales who does

:51:27.:51:29.

not see the opportunities that is being presented to him. It is

:51:30.:51:33.

extraordinary we have the Welsh Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and

:51:34.:51:38.

the Welsh Conservatives talking about a radical approach to Wales's

:51:39.:51:41.

future than the First Minister of Wales. We have to move on.

:51:42.:51:46.

The Unite union have just dedicated their new education complex at

:51:47.:51:49.

Transport House in Cardiff to the late north Walian union official,

:51:50.:51:53.

Tom Jones. Mr Jones, who died last year, was involved in the long

:51:54.:51:55.

running industrial disputes at Friction Dynamex and the north Wales

:51:56.:52:00.

slate quarries. He was also responsible for getting members

:52:01.:52:02.

involved in education projects such as the Wales Union Learning Fund.

:52:03.:52:06.

Mark Palmer went along to the ceremony at the Unite headquarters.

:52:07.:52:15.

Without further ado, it is my great pleasure to unveil this photomontage

:52:16.:52:26.

of Tom. Tom Jones was a widely respected official for the old

:52:27.:52:31.

transport and workers union who died last year. In tribute to him, Andy

:52:32.:52:36.

Richards said he was an inspirational campaigner who had

:52:37.:52:41.

been involved in a long-running disputes in Friction Dynamex. In all

:52:42.:52:46.

the campaigning he was passionate about education. He was a good the

:52:47.:52:52.

goal shooter. He was a very good administrator. He had a passion for

:52:53.:53:06.

learning. He made use of the Wales Union Learning Fund, funded by the

:53:07.:53:11.

Welsh Government. His was the first project in North Wales. He kicked

:53:12.:53:20.

that. Between 2007 and 2011, 15,000 people trained through the Wales

:53:21.:53:24.

Union Learning Fund. With continued support of the government it is

:53:25.:53:27.

hoped the number will increase by 10,000 by the end of this year with

:53:28.:53:30.

facilities like the Tom Jones education centre playing a key role.

:53:31.:53:37.

Andy Richards said the Wales Union Learning Fund is about cooperation

:53:38.:53:41.

between the unions and employers. Education is important to the

:53:42.:53:45.

profitability of companies and without profitable companies in

:53:46.:53:52.

Wales we do not have union members. We work with thousands of them. The

:53:53.:53:57.

main physical and coming from that is people leaving school at the

:53:58.:54:01.

moment don't have the essential basic skills necessary for industry.

:54:02.:54:05.

By accessing the Wales Union Learning Fund we provide training,

:54:06.:54:13.

particularly as in this room, specialist IT, training them to go

:54:14.:54:20.

into industry. The last government say they are encouraged to CM

:54:21.:54:24.

players from all sectors embracing the Wales Union Learning Fund and

:54:25.:54:27.

the family of Tom Jones say they are proud he is being commemorated in

:54:28.:54:35.

this environment. Preferred a lot about union on cooperation. This is

:54:36.:54:46.

positive. Funding into this fund has increased. Where you have unions

:54:47.:54:50.

like Unite hailing fees to the Labour Party, funding the Labour

:54:51.:54:55.

Party, this is the wrong way to achieve it. We should be educating

:54:56.:55:00.

our children to come out of schools with us a six skills so they already

:55:01.:55:08.

have qualifies -- with basic skills so they already have the

:55:09.:55:13.

modifications. So all the work the unions are doing, you would

:55:14.:55:16.

preferred that the don't have to do it because the children would the

:55:17.:55:20.

educated properly in schools. These skills budget has in cut by ?42

:55:21.:55:28.

million by the Labour government. Why are they pumping money into this

:55:29.:55:34.

specialist fund administered by the unions? It needs to be used in the

:55:35.:55:38.

education sector far more widely. Let's get a response. The unique

:55:39.:55:42.

thing about the Wales Union Learning Fund is it is done through the union

:55:43.:55:49.

in the workplace. You say they work with employers. They work with the

:55:50.:55:55.

workforce. If people, who are lacking basic skills in reading and

:55:56.:56:00.

writing, it is much easier to work with a local union representatives

:56:01.:56:05.

to move forward and get the skills addressed. That is why it has been

:56:06.:56:13.

so successful. I am fully in support of this fund and of the Welsh

:56:14.:56:18.

Government putting money into it. Is your concern here not that the work

:56:19.:56:21.

is carried out, the fact it is carried out by the union? It is

:56:22.:56:27.

concerning to see many going round in a circle. Millions is being put

:56:28.:56:31.

into this fund to an organisation that pays millions of pounds in

:56:32.:56:37.

donations to the Labour Party. We have good local colleges that have

:56:38.:56:42.

extensive contacts with the cis and already work with businesses to

:56:43.:56:51.

improve skills. -- with companies. My view is this money is directed to

:56:52.:56:56.

the wrong place. Rather than cutting the budget colleges which is

:56:57.:57:05.

happening now, I wanted to be put in to this. I return to the practical

:57:06.:57:12.

implications that it is a successful way of delivering learning. I think

:57:13.:57:18.

that it should be approached puny on that practical basis, this is then a

:57:19.:57:25.

successful fund. There are other ways to reach people but this is

:57:26.:57:27.

successful and we need to continue to support it. We will be back to

:57:28.:57:33.

you shortly. Time for a quick look back at some of the political

:57:34.:57:43.

stories of the week in 60 Seconds. The Prime Minister announced next

:57:44.:57:46.

year 's NATO summit will be held at the Celtic Manor resort in Newport.

:57:47.:57:51.

David Cameron said leaders such as President Obama will be there. The

:57:52.:58:01.

Welsh Government's new task force on modernising the North Wales rail

:58:02.:58:04.

network held its first thing. It is chaired while Lesley Griffiths, it

:58:05.:58:10.

is made up of the representatives of the North Wales local authorities,

:58:11.:58:13.

enterprise zones and the private sector. The Anglesey MP, Albert

:58:14.:58:20.

Owen, criticised energy chief executives for awarding pay rises to

:58:21.:58:27.

their staff. Former Wales secretary said the post should be abolished

:58:28.:58:31.

because its existence in a post-devolution Wales could not be

:58:32.:58:34.

justified. He said the Wales office should be scrapped as a cost cutting

:58:35.:58:39.

measure and with Cardiff Bay having more powers, they should be more

:58:40.:58:47.

Assembly Members. We saw the First Minister of the

:58:48.:58:52.

Prime Minister Rather, and the Deputy Prime Minister in the Senedd.

:58:53.:59:00.

One thing we did not touch on is that the NATO summit will be coming

:59:01.:59:06.

to South Wales. It is very good. Celtic Manor is such a great place.

:59:07.:59:11.

I visited it when the European foreign ministers met there. It is

:59:12.:59:14.

each amend this venue so I think it is very good news we we're having

:59:15.:59:17.

another big meeting, a high-profile meeting there. Good for Wales. Do

:59:18.:59:23.

you think we could see F Swan landing at Cardiff airport? It would

:59:24.:59:33.

be interesting. -- air force one. What do you think of the Prime

:59:34.:59:36.

Minister 's visit to South Wales? I am delighted that he has worked so

:59:37.:59:43.

hard to get NATO to come and visit South Wales. I hope the Welsh

:59:44.:59:46.

Government will take it as an opportunity to promote the whole of

:59:47.:59:50.

Wales. They have welcomed it, to be fair. It should promote Welsh to

:59:51.:59:58.

losing, Welsh food, it isn't excellent opportunity to showcase

:59:59.:00:04.

Wales. -- Welsh tourism. You have spent some time doing some walking.

:00:05.:00:08.

Is it is to reach you have been doing it? I walked earlier in the

:00:09.:00:14.

year in September with walk on Wales is a fantastic charity. They have

:00:15.:00:20.

been walking around the coast of Wales to raise funds to help

:00:21.:00:25.

soldiers with post-traumatic stress disorder. The charity has been

:00:26.:00:32.

highlighting that and has an fundraising at the same time for

:00:33.:00:36.

combat stress in the Welsh Guards. They finished yesterday here in

:00:37.:00:39.

Cardiff in front of the Senedd and it was very, very moving. You

:00:40.:00:43.

swapped your trainers for your work shoes today! Next week, I suspect

:00:44.:00:49.

both the William B in the Assembly because you have a debate in the

:00:50.:00:52.

reader to Remembrance Sunday. It is a debate on the Armed Forces. It is

:00:53.:01:00.

an important week. I have been particularly struck by how many

:01:01.:01:04.

young people are now involved and interested and I feel that next week

:01:05.:01:08.

is a week where we will be thinking about and preparing for Remembrance

:01:09.:01:18.

Sunday. I agree with that. We have a Wales that contributes to the Armed

:01:19.:01:25.

Forces. It is not just about remembering the world wars. That is

:01:26.:01:31.

why it is a web portal to look at things like the veterans card which

:01:32.:01:34.

hasn't been delivered or implemented. Things like the PTSD

:01:35.:01:41.

treatment there should be, I say, available in Wales. It isn't at the

:01:42.:01:47.

moment. It was as an opportunity to look at those. Many thanks for

:01:48.:01:52.

coming in today. We are out of time. We will be back with you next week.

:01:53.:01:56.

But for the time being, let's go back to London.

:01:57.:01:59.

Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's

:02:00.:02:17.

relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the

:02:18.:02:31.

Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka

:02:32.:02:34.

Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did

:02:35.:02:37.

earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.

:02:38.:02:40.

Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

:02:41.:02:44.

office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the

:02:45.:02:48.

Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative

:02:49.:02:53.

mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he

:02:54.:02:57.

should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey

:02:58.:03:03.

denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial

:03:04.:03:10.

dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side

:03:11.:03:14.

is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send

:03:15.:03:20.

its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened

:03:21.:03:23.

in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families

:03:24.:03:28.

out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset

:03:29.:03:32.

particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of

:03:33.:03:39.

things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own

:03:40.:03:43.

report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -

:03:44.:03:49.

forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was

:03:50.:03:57.

being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the

:03:58.:04:09.

report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is

:04:10.:04:14.

something that the police are looking into so that is not

:04:15.:04:16.

something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We

:04:17.:04:29.

learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained

:04:30.:04:32.

to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour

:04:33.:04:37.

Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party

:04:38.:04:48.

and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are

:04:49.:04:50.

looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like

:04:51.:04:55.

the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil

:04:56.:04:58.

Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985. Ed

:04:59.:05:04.

Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not

:05:05.:05:10.

worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?

:05:11.:05:16.

Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we

:05:17.:05:19.

have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many

:05:20.:05:27.

respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further

:05:28.:05:31.

ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship

:05:32.:05:36.

with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of

:05:37.:05:41.

the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to

:05:42.:05:47.

vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but

:05:48.:05:51.

they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and

:05:52.:05:56.

that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do

:05:57.:06:01.

things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour

:06:02.:06:04.

Party that were set up in the 20th century. The reform of the way in

:06:05.:06:09.

which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us

:06:10.:06:13.

in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3

:06:14.:06:20.

million working people who ensure our public services function. At

:06:21.:06:29.

Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk

:06:30.:06:34.

Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that. I'd

:06:35.:06:43.

just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to

:06:44.:06:50.

give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be

:06:51.:06:53.

confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to

:06:54.:06:59.

take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our

:07:00.:07:05.

Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed

:07:06.:07:12.

Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in

:07:13.:07:17.

special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite

:07:18.:07:21.

union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean

:07:22.:07:29.

according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the

:07:30.:07:37.

meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer

:07:38.:07:42.

free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your

:07:43.:07:49.

turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the

:07:50.:07:57.

allegations that have been made. On your point I think it is healthy the

:07:58.:08:03.

Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their

:08:04.:08:07.

rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at

:08:08.:08:16.

Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of

:08:17.:08:22.

their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to

:08:23.:08:28.

our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will

:08:29.:08:32.

find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets

:08:33.:08:38.

tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working

:08:39.:08:44.

in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port

:08:45.:08:48.

and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets

:08:49.:08:54.

overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from

:08:55.:08:59.

unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite

:09:00.:09:05.

know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears

:09:06.:09:09.

used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private

:09:10.:09:14.

sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was

:09:15.:09:20.

born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of

:09:21.:09:24.

their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they

:09:25.:09:31.

can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But

:09:32.:09:39.

there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is

:09:40.:09:44.

right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for

:09:45.:09:49.

their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their

:09:50.:09:55.

aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their

:09:56.:10:00.

workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the

:10:01.:10:07.

protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has

:10:08.:10:11.

said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.

:10:12.:10:19.

He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the

:10:20.:10:23.

radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that

:10:24.:10:28.

was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend

:10:29.:10:32.

to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like

:10:33.:10:38.

land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing

:10:39.:10:46.

the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.4

:10:47.:10:49.

million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The

:10:50.:10:55.

business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances

:10:56.:11:00.

back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being

:11:01.:11:06.

used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater

:11:07.:11:11.

variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro

:11:12.:11:19.

enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a

:11:20.:11:26.

living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but

:11:27.:11:30.

there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business

:11:31.:11:35.

because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is

:11:36.:11:42.

good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are

:11:43.:11:48.

not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax

:11:49.:11:53.

credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know

:11:54.:12:02.

after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living

:12:03.:12:12.

wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and

:12:13.:12:16.

we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party

:12:17.:12:24.

pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a

:12:25.:12:39.

living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.

:12:40.:12:45.

What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle

:12:46.:12:51.

as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one

:12:52.:12:58.

of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this

:12:59.:13:02.

soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working

:13:03.:13:06.

together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.

:13:07.:13:17.

That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be

:13:18.:13:26.

here again next weekend at 12:25pm after the Remembrance Day service at

:13:27.:13:31.

the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:32.:13:39.

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