29/01/2017 Sunday Politics Wales


29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Arwyn Jones with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:09.:01:17.

Should Wales follow Finland's lead and give

:01:18.:01:19.

people a monthly income, no strings attached?

:01:20.:01:21.

And what should Labour do about Brexit ahead of this

:01:22.:01:23.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:24.:01:27.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:28.:01:30.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:31.:01:32.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:33.:01:35.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:36.:01:37.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:38.:01:39.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:40.:01:41.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:42.:01:43.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:44.:01:45.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:46.:01:48.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:49.:01:51.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:52.:01:57.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:58.:02:00.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:01.:02:05.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:06.:02:07.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:08.:02:13.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:14.:02:16.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:17.:02:25.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:26.:02:27.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:28.:02:31.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:32.:02:37.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:38.:02:42.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:43.:02:44.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:45.:02:50.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:51.:02:53.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:54.:02:56.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:57.:03:11.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:12.:03:13.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:14.:03:16.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:17.:03:22.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:23.:03:26.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:27.:03:31.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:32.:03:33.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:34.:03:37.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:38.:03:41.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:42.:03:43.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:44.:03:46.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:47.:03:49.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:50.:03:53.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:54.:04:05.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:06.:04:13.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:14.:04:17.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:18.:04:21.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:22.:04:28.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:29.:04:32.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:33.:04:38.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:39.:04:42.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:43.:04:47.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:48.:04:52.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:53.:04:55.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:56.:04:58.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:59.:05:03.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:04.:05:07.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:08.:05:10.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:11.:05:14.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:15.:05:20.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:21.:05:23.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:24.:05:31.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:32.:05:35.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:36.:05:38.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:39.:05:41.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:42.:05:44.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:45.:05:47.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:48.:05:52.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:53.:05:55.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:56.:05:59.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:06:00.:06:05.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:06.:06:11.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:12.:06:15.

temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:16.:06:21.

wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:22.:06:25.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

:06:26.:06:28.

It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

:06:29.:06:33.

arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:34.:06:38.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:39.:06:43.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:44.:06:47.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:48.:07:00.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:01.:07:06.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:07.:07:10.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:11.:07:13.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:14.:07:17.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:18.:07:20.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:21.:07:25.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:26.:07:31.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:32.:07:34.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:35.:07:39.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:40.:07:41.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:42.:07:47.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:48.:07:51.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:52.:07:56.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:57.:07:59.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:08:00.:08:02.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:03.:08:09.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:10.:08:11.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:12.:08:16.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:17.:08:22.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:23.:08:26.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:27.:08:29.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:30.:08:32.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:33.:08:38.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:39.:08:41.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:42.:08:51.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:52.:08:57.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:58.:09:02.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:03.:09:06.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:07.:09:12.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:13.:09:16.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:17.:09:22.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:23.:09:27.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:28.:09:35.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:36.:09:40.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:41.:09:44.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:45.:09:48.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:49.:09:50.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:51.:09:56.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:57.:10:01.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:02.:10:04.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:05.:10:10.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:11.:10:14.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:15.:10:18.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:19.:10:23.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:24.:10:27.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:28.:10:32.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:33.:10:38.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:39.:10:41.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:42.:10:46.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:47.:10:51.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:52.:10:57.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:58.:11:01.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:02.:11:04.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:05.:11:12.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:13.:11:16.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:17.:11:21.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:22.:11:25.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:26.:11:28.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:29.:11:37.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:38.:11:43.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:44.:11:47.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:48.:11:53.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:54.:11:57.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:58.:12:03.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:04.:12:08.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:09.:12:13.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:14.:12:18.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:19.:12:22.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:23.:12:28.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:29.:12:32.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:33.:12:37.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:38.:12:40.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:41.:12:45.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:46.:12:49.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:50.:12:53.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:54.:12:58.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:12:59.:13:03.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:04.:13:05.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:06.:13:10.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:11.:13:13.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:14.:13:17.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:18.:13:22.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:23.:13:26.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:27.:13:31.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:32.:13:34.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:35.:13:38.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:39.:13:44.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:45.:13:46.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:47.:13:50.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:51.:13:53.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:54.:13:55.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:56.:13:58.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:59.:14:00.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:14:01.:14:02.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:03.:14:04.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:05.:14:06.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:07.:14:10.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:11.:14:13.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:14.:14:22.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:23.:14:25.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:26.:14:29.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:30.:14:35.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:36.:14:36.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:37.:14:42.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:43.:14:46.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:47.:14:49.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:50.:14:51.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:52.:14:57.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:58.:15:00.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:15:01.:15:02.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:03.:15:06.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:07.:15:22.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:23.:15:26.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:27.:15:30.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:31.:15:34.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:35.:15:38.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:39.:15:46.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:47.:15:52.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:53.:15:58.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:59.:16:02.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:03.:16:08.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:09.:16:11.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:12.:16:17.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:18.:16:21.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:22.:16:25.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:26.:16:30.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:31.:16:35.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:36.:16:39.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:40.:16:43.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:44.:16:47.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:48.:16:54.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:55.:17:02.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:03.:17:06.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:07.:17:11.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:12.:17:16.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:17.:17:19.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:20.:17:28.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:29.:17:33.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:34.:17:38.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:39.:17:43.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:44.:17:46.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:47.:17:50.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:51.:17:55.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:56.:17:59.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:00.:18:04.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:05.:18:09.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:10.:18:12.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:13.:18:23.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:24.:18:31.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:32.:18:35.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:36.:18:37.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:38.:18:44.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:45.:18:47.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:48.:18:53.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:54.:18:59.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:00.:19:03.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:04.:19:06.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:07.:19:13.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:14.:19:16.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:17.:19:20.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:21.:19:23.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:24.:19:27.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:28.:19:32.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:33.:19:39.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:40.:19:43.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:44.:19:47.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:48.:19:52.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:53.:19:56.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:57.:20:04.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:05.:20:09.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:10.:20:16.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:17.:20:19.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:20.:20:23.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:24.:20:29.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:30.:20:32.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:33.:20:36.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:37.:20:40.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:41.:20:46.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:47.:20:51.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:52.:20:55.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:56.:21:00.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:01.:21:05.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:06.:21:10.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:11.:21:14.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:15.:21:18.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:19.:21:22.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:23.:21:25.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:26.:21:30.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:31.:21:36.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:37.:21:41.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:42.:21:44.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:45.:21:52.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:53.:21:56.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:57.:22:01.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:02.:22:04.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:05.:22:09.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:10.:22:12.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:13.:22:19.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:20.:22:22.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:23.:22:27.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:28.:22:30.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:31.:22:36.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:37.:22:39.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:40.:22:45.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:46.:22:50.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:51.:22:53.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:54.:22:59.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:00.:23:03.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:04.:23:09.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:10.:23:13.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:14.:23:18.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:19.:23:22.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:23.:23:26.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:27.:23:30.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:31.:23:35.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:36.:23:39.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:40.:23:43.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:44.:23:48.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:49.:23:52.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:53.:23:58.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:59.:24:01.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:02.:24:06.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:07.:24:11.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:12.:24:15.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:16.:24:18.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:19.:24:23.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:24.:24:28.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:29.:24:33.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:34.:24:37.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:38.:24:42.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:43.:24:48.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:49.:24:57.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:58.:25:01.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:02.:25:05.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:06.:25:12.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:13.:25:17.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:18.:25:21.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:22.:25:23.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:24.:25:25.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:26.:25:27.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:28.:25:29.

be talking to our political panel. Hello and welcome to

:25:30.:25:38.

the Sunday Politics Wales. He's not a politician,

:25:39.:25:41.

not officially at least, but in his last interview

:25:42.:25:46.

as Archbishop, Barry Morgan tells us why the Church needs

:25:47.:25:48.

to speak out on politics. And after Jo Stevens'

:25:49.:25:52.

resignation, what should Labour A senior Labour frontbencher

:25:53.:25:54.

will be here to tell us. But first how would you feel

:25:55.:26:00.

about getting a wad of money every Ministers in Wales say giving

:26:01.:26:03.

everyone a guaranteed minimum income could help tackle

:26:04.:26:07.

poverty and inequality. Others say it would be

:26:08.:26:11.

far too expensive. Should every citizen receive

:26:12.:26:12.

an automatic basic income to spend however they want,

:26:13.:26:19.

no strings attached? It isn't a new question

:26:20.:26:22.

and philosophers have debated it The policy does have fresh support

:26:23.:26:24.

from the left and the right and here in Wales,

:26:25.:26:30.

the Finance Secretary recently It is an idea with

:26:31.:26:32.

considerable roots in our Always struggled to manage

:26:33.:26:40.

to find a practical way of taking it forward but it is

:26:41.:26:44.

an opportunity for us in Wales, to watch what is being attempted

:26:45.:26:48.

elsewhere and to see whether we can do anything practical

:26:49.:26:51.

with the idea ourselves. It isn't clear if or how

:26:52.:26:56.

the Welsh Government could introduce a universal basic income

:26:57.:26:58.

but Mark Drakeford says he will keep an eye on developments in Scotland

:26:59.:27:04.

where there are efforts to launch The initiative has

:27:05.:27:07.

cross-party support and the backing of

:27:08.:27:10.

the RSA think tank. It explains a basic income

:27:11.:27:15.

would be paid to everyone, regardless of whether they work

:27:16.:27:17.

or not and so there is an extra incentive for unemployed people

:27:18.:27:20.

to find a job as they wouldn't have to worry about losing benefits,

:27:21.:27:24.

as happens under the current system. With a basic income,

:27:25.:27:29.

moving from a system where you weren't working into one

:27:30.:27:32.

you were, you will You retain your consistent payment

:27:33.:27:34.

throughout that period. You are given the security to be

:27:35.:27:51.

able to choose to work and also actually to be able to choose

:27:52.:27:55.

work or training and set up your own In a way that is more beneficial

:27:56.:27:58.

to you, rather than one Universal basic income has

:27:59.:28:02.

already been trialled in a number of countries including

:28:03.:28:05.

Brazil, India and the Netherlands and on the 1st of January this year,

:28:06.:28:07.

Finland launched its own 2,000 unemployed people have been

:28:08.:28:10.

picked at random to take part and they will each receive 560 euros

:28:11.:28:16.

a month for the next two years, replacing money they

:28:17.:28:19.

already get in benefits. And to put that figure into some

:28:20.:28:23.

kind of context, the average private sector salary

:28:24.:28:25.

in Finland is 3,500 euros a month. The scheme is managed by the agency

:28:26.:28:28.

responsible for administering social The biggest response

:28:29.:28:31.

from the big group of The biggest question has

:28:32.:28:36.

been, is this for real? I can keep this 560 euros and then

:28:37.:28:48.

take on a job and keep the earnings So this does not reduce my social

:28:49.:28:52.

security and it is basically income. That is one response,

:28:53.:28:56.

a very positive one. Critics say handing out

:28:57.:29:00.

regular, unconditional payments to everyone could encourage

:29:01.:29:03.

laziness and boost immigration. This is not a workable

:29:04.:29:05.

scheme because it is It creates a tremendous tax

:29:06.:29:17.

and disincentive for the average person further up

:29:18.:29:20.

the income scale who is paying taxes Mark Drakeford has said he thinks

:29:21.:29:23.

this is an attractive idea. It is quite worrying for Wales

:29:24.:29:27.

because it is very expensive and if Wales did it on its own it is going

:29:28.:29:33.

to be very expensive. Now, we are used to

:29:34.:29:36.

the communist state north of Hadrian's Wall but I'm hoping Wales

:29:37.:29:39.

won't go the same way towards this sort of extremely expensive

:29:40.:29:44.

socialist experiment. The UK Government

:29:45.:29:49.

rejected the idea last year, describing universal basic

:29:50.:29:51.

income as unaffordable. Mark Drakeford meanwhile

:29:52.:29:54.

accepts securing public support for the scheme

:29:55.:29:57.

would be a challenge in light of negative tabloid

:29:58.:30:01.

headlines in Scotland. This afternoon a special service

:30:02.:30:08.

will be held for the retiring Barry Morgan is the longest serving

:30:09.:30:11.

Archbishop in the Anglican Church, and he's never been afraid

:30:12.:30:15.

to intervene in politics, He's busy today, of course,

:30:16.:30:17.

so Felicity Evans spoke to him a few days ago,

:30:18.:30:23.

when she asked whether having the Church interfere

:30:24.:30:26.

in politics was appropriate. Some people, of course,

:30:27.:30:31.

Christians among them, think that the Christian faith only

:30:32.:30:32.

has to do with going to church, saying your prayers

:30:33.:30:35.

and reading your Bible. They haven't looked very

:30:36.:30:39.

carefully at the Bible because it has a great deal to say

:30:40.:30:41.

about justice, a great deal to say about poverty and both the prophets

:30:42.:30:44.

and Jesus said, it's no good just offering me worship unless you live

:30:45.:30:49.

justly, if you don't take care of the poor,

:30:50.:30:54.

if you don't look after refugees. Have you ever come out on a side

:30:55.:30:58.

at some point and in retrospect thought, actually, I got that wrong

:30:59.:31:09.

and I shouldn't have said that? I was on the wrong

:31:10.:31:12.

side of the argument? There were some people who thought

:31:13.:31:15.

I was wrong to come out over the deemed consent about organ

:31:16.:31:17.

donation and the Welsh Government. I still believe that it was right

:31:18.:31:20.

for the Church to speak as it did and I spoke on behalf

:31:21.:31:23.

of the Church in Wales and on behalf of the bishops

:31:24.:31:28.

because the clue was in the Some people misunderstood

:31:29.:31:31.

that and thought that I was against organ donation

:31:32.:31:37.

and of course, I'm certainly not. I was urging people to give organs

:31:38.:31:40.

but to do so voluntarily. What about the Syria bombing

:31:41.:31:47.

debate, when you urged MPs to vote against British military

:31:48.:31:51.

involvement in bombing in Syria? In retrospect, having seen

:31:52.:31:56.

the suffering inflicted upon civilian populations

:31:57.:31:58.

across Syria by government and Russian bombing campaigns,

:31:59.:32:00.

do you regret that Well, I'm not sure that

:32:01.:32:01.

people listen to any advice that comes from

:32:02.:32:14.

the episcopal bench anyway. You must have assumed

:32:15.:32:16.

you had influence or you wouldn't have

:32:17.:32:20.

said it, surely? Well, I'm speaking to my own

:32:21.:32:22.

constituency and getting people to think about some

:32:23.:32:25.

of the moral issues. I mean, our record in Iraq

:32:26.:32:27.

and Afghanistan is not a happy one And when you look at the walls

:32:28.:32:30.

of Llandaff Cathedral you see that we have been

:32:31.:32:39.

involved in Afghanistan for a couple of hundred years and it has

:32:40.:32:41.

always ended in tears. There is no kind of

:32:42.:32:46.

right answer, is there? I just wish the situation

:32:47.:32:49.

in Syria is not as it is but perhaps if we had gone in,

:32:50.:32:52.

it might even be worse. What was your biggest

:32:53.:32:56.

challenge, do you think, on taking up the position

:32:57.:32:59.

of Archbishop of Wales? I don't know if I've thought of it

:33:00.:33:02.

in terms of challenges like that. You know, you deal with

:33:03.:33:09.

things from day-to-day So certainly I think it didn't make

:33:10.:33:11.

any sense at all for women to be ordained to the diaconate

:33:12.:33:20.

and to the priesthood and not to be ordained to the episcopate

:33:21.:33:23.

because there are three orders I think that was pretty important

:33:24.:33:25.

as a matter of justice, as a matter of equality and as a matter

:33:26.:33:32.

of doing what was right, really. We have a resurgent Russia,

:33:33.:33:40.

we have the crisis in Syria and the wider Middle East,

:33:41.:33:43.

we have President Trump, What is your assessment

:33:44.:33:45.

of the direction that we are heading in and

:33:46.:33:51.

Wales's place in it? I think all the Church can do is be

:33:52.:33:58.

with people as they wrestle with these issues and give

:33:59.:34:02.

some kind of moral lead. I'm leaving, as you say,

:34:03.:34:08.

and it is no longer my job to I will have my private

:34:09.:34:11.

views but I think I shall It's been another week of high drama

:34:12.:34:18.

on the Brexit front, but much of the focus has

:34:19.:34:27.

been on Labour. The Shadow Welsh Secretary Jo

:34:28.:34:31.

Stevens resigned on Friday over being forced to support triggering

:34:32.:34:33.

Article 50. The Shadow Solicitor General and MP

:34:34.:34:37.

for Torfaen, Nick Thomas-Simmonds, Good morning and thanks for coming

:34:38.:34:54.

in. First of all, on the point about Jo Stevens and whether you think

:34:55.:34:58.

more of your fellow Labour MPs will follow, is that what you expect?

:34:59.:35:03.

Not necessarily. In respect of Jo Stevens, I think she was if a

:35:04.:35:07.

drastic shadow were said and she has a great future in the party. Our

:35:08.:35:15.

position is to respect the result of the referendum. It was the highest

:35:16.:35:21.

national turnout since 1992. My constituency, Wales and the UK all

:35:22.:35:25.

voted to leave. I think there is a crucial point here. Going around the

:35:26.:35:29.

doors in the referendum I got the sense of people saying they didn't

:35:30.:35:33.

feel politicians listened to them. I think it would be a mistake not to

:35:34.:35:37.

listen to the result of the referendum, that would further

:35:38.:35:42.

exacerbate the alienation in politics.

:35:43.:35:44.

Is the difficulty for you and the Labour Party that around two thirds

:35:45.:35:51.

of Labour Party members work for remain, but two thirds of Labour

:35:52.:35:54.

constituencies were four leaf and to try to bring those things together

:35:55.:36:00.

was almost impossible? -- were in favour of leaving.

:36:01.:36:03.

The results are therefore everyone to see in various constituencies.

:36:04.:36:10.

What unites us is the post Brexit Britain we want to see and in the

:36:11.:36:14.

House of Commons we will see in above amendments by the Labour Party

:36:15.:36:17.

to shape post Brexit Britain, maintaining the environmental

:36:18.:36:23.

protections, workers' rights, trying to secure tariff free access to the

:36:24.:36:28.

single market which is crucial to Wales because 60% of our exports go

:36:29.:36:32.

to the EU and we need to ensure that we don't become some giant tax

:36:33.:36:38.

haven. Coming onto those details in a

:36:39.:36:43.

minute. Just on the Labour and Jeremy Corbyn issue. Was he right,

:36:44.:36:48.

considering this is a huge issue for all Labour MPs, to use its three

:36:49.:36:53.

line whip to say you must vote this way?

:36:54.:36:56.

I think we need to be understanding about colleagues who take a

:36:57.:36:59.

particular view because they have to. I do think it was very important

:37:00.:37:03.

we sent out a signal that we respected the result of the

:37:04.:37:06.

referendum. That is exactly what we are doing. We are now fighting to

:37:07.:37:13.

protect jobs... Does that mean those Labour MPs who

:37:14.:37:20.

don't vote to trigger Article 50 are not respecting the overall result,

:37:21.:37:23.

such as Jo Stevens? What every MP has to do is look at

:37:24.:37:28.

the conflicting issues, like all MPs do before they vote in the House of

:37:29.:37:32.

Commons. Looking at their constituency and broader concerns

:37:33.:37:36.

and what they judge best. This is a quite unprecedented situation and I

:37:37.:37:41.

am sympathetic to colleagues who take a different view. Over the next

:37:42.:37:45.

few weeks with the amendments being put down we will be fighting for the

:37:46.:37:50.

kind of post Brexit Britain, a fair one that we want to see.

:37:51.:37:54.

How local are you that over the next couple of weeks there will be

:37:55.:37:59.

discussions about triggering Article 50 and it will be more broadbrush.

:38:00.:38:04.

How confident are you that there will be a settled well in the House

:38:05.:38:08.

of Commons that Labour MPs and surgeon Conservative MPs will have a

:38:09.:38:15.

settled view on these votes? -- and surgeon Conservative MPs? I

:38:16.:38:20.

don't know if we will until we see where the conversation is going

:38:21.:38:24.

forward. We will do all we can to shape Brexit going forward but it is

:38:25.:38:29.

the government that is doing the negotiation and people did not vote

:38:30.:38:32.

to become poorer and it is for the government to carry out that

:38:33.:38:37.

instruction from the public in a way that doesn't make Briton Laura.

:38:38.:38:40.

They will be judged upon that. I guess on that point the government

:38:41.:38:48.

won't want to have... You wouldn't want to see tightening of the

:38:49.:38:51.

wriggle room you can give Theresa May because by doing that you are

:38:52.:38:55.

handing the negotiation position by those dashed to those other EU

:38:56.:39:00.

countries. I used to be a lawyer and mediator.

:39:01.:39:04.

Nobody is suggesting you hand over the details of negotiation before.

:39:05.:39:12.

We don't want Britain as an island tax haven... We need to be straight

:39:13.:39:19.

on the trade-offs going forward. Immediately that cuts away to May's

:39:20.:39:23.

last option because she has said she is willing to walk away and have low

:39:24.:39:29.

tax, low regulation. You are immediately saying you can't have

:39:30.:39:32.

that. What I'm absolutely saying is the

:39:33.:39:36.

kind of nightmarish vision she is talking about, this bargain basement

:39:37.:39:40.

Britain, where we would be competing to be a tax haven with the single

:39:41.:39:46.

market would be a disaster. That doesn't cut away any of her

:39:47.:39:51.

negotiating strength. Who would see that as an option to make the

:39:52.:39:56.

country stronger? She needs to be held to account.

:39:57.:40:02.

File with that sort of manifest itself over the next couple of

:40:03.:40:06.

weeks? What kind of votes do you think we can see coming forward from

:40:07.:40:09.

the Labour Party? You will see amendments on workers'

:40:10.:40:14.

rights, environmental rights, consumer protection, a broader

:40:15.:40:18.

amendment on post Brexit Britain, including tariff free access to the

:40:19.:40:23.

single market, which is vital, but also an anti-tax avoidance amendment

:40:24.:40:25.

to avoid is becoming a tax haven. Another big political week ahead -

:40:26.:40:27.

we'll be back to talk about it We're @walespolitics on Twitter,

:40:28.:40:30.

but for now that's all from me. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:31.:40:39.

to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:40.:40:43.

mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:44.:40:49.

Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:50.:40:52.

should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:40:53.:41:05.

for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:06.:41:10.

challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:11.:41:14.

come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:15.:41:18.

Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:19.:41:23.

term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:24.:41:28.

to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:29.:41:34.

anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:35.:41:38.

territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:39.:41:42.

summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:43.:41:47.

coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:48.:41:51.

from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:52.:41:55.

Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:41:56.:42:01.

mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:02.:42:05.

that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:06.:42:08.

it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:09.:42:14.

civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:15.:42:19.

Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:20.:42:28.

hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:29.:42:31.

although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:32.:42:37.

discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:38.:42:41.

man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:42.:42:44.

backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:45.:42:50.

with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:51.:42:54.

and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:55.:42:58.

ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:42:59.:43:03.

opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:04.:43:08.

streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:09.:43:13.

international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:14.:43:17.

are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:18.:43:20.

suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:21.:43:24.

have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:25.:43:29.

Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:30.:43:35.

would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:36.:43:42.

subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:43.:43:46.

front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:47.:43:50.

Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:51.:43:53.

host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:54.:43:57.

have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:43:58.:44:03.

serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:04.:44:07.

are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:08.:44:14.

won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:15.:44:17.

in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:18.:44:21.

opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:22.:44:27.

Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:28.:44:36.

because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:37.:44:39.

the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:40.:44:44.

currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:45.:44:49.

leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:50.:44:53.

dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:54.:44:57.

Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:44:58.:45:01.

but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:02.:45:06.

danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:07.:45:12.

conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:13.:45:15.

are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:16.:45:20.

vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:21.:45:24.

have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:25.:45:28.

of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:29.:45:35.

world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:36.:45:39.

worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:40.:45:43.

legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:44.:45:47.

big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:48.:45:53.

is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:54.:45:56.

hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:45:57.:46:01.

incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:02.:46:05.

politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:06.:46:10.

already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:11.:46:14.

have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:15.:46:19.

stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:20.:46:24.

and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:25.:46:28.

have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:29.:46:32.

it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:33.:46:35.

be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:36.:46:40.

regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:41.:46:46.

citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:47.:46:52.

through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:53.:46:58.

know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:46:59.:47:03.

won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:04.:47:07.

those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:08.:47:11.

the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:12.:47:16.

already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:17.:47:20.

governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:21.:47:25.

for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:26.:47:28.

through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:29.:47:33.

through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:34.:47:37.

been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:38.:47:43.

will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:44.:47:49.

the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:50.:47:55.

see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:47:56.:47:59.

unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:48:00.:48:04.

when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:05.:48:12.

Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:13.:48:18.

or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:19.:48:24.

But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:25.:48:26.

week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:27.:48:28.

tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:29.:48:32.

on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:33.:48:35.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:48:36.:48:41.