Browse content similar to 29/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven | :01:09. | :01:17. | |
Should Wales follow Finland's lead and give | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
people a monthly income, no strings attached? | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
And what should Labour do about Brexit ahead of this | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
Should she have spoken out more strongly? | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's | :01:31. | :01:32. | |
In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan, | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
and why it doesn't apply to everybody. | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
And with me, the best and brightest political | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
They'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq, | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
where refugees are banned from until further notice. | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days. | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
But the ban has sparked protests across the US, | :02:17. | :02:25. | |
as people affected and already in the air were detained | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
about the refugee ban three times before giving this response... | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
Well, the United States is responsible for the United States' | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country. | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
Downing Street later issued a statement saying: | :02:57. | :03:11. | |
This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why | :03:12. | :03:13. | |
Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
She wants to see the evidence, she wants | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
to understand precisely what the implications are. | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
understand it, and then will respond to that. | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
I think there are times where, you know, there's always | :03:42. | :03:43. | |
pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on. | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
We're joined now from North London by the Conservative | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more | :03:54. | :04:05. | |
vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing, | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you | :05:24. | :05:31. | |
like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens. | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
It can't be right that a president in that position of power can | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis? | :06:48. | :07:00. | |
I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs, | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit, | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
right place. Thank you for joining us. | :08:42. | :08:51. | |
Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages, | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right. | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case. | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president, | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis. | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It | :11:29. | :11:37. | |
is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely. | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London. | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless | :13:04. | :13:05. | |
communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister, | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
keen for a new trading relationship with the United States | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
the new US President for his "stunning election victory" | :14:01. | :14:02. | |
but might not have intended to be pictured walking | :14:03. | :14:04. | |
through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister | :14:14. | :14:22. | |
said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
increased their defence spending It's been announced | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement, | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead | :14:36. | :14:36. | |
to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
to Donald Trump her continued | :14:50. | :14:51. | |
backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's | :15:07. | :15:22. | |
decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven | :15:39. | :15:46. | |
countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere, | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in. | :16:55. | :17:02. | |
He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any | :17:20. | :17:28. | |
terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
America, they then go through biometric screening, database | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence | :18:13. | :18:23. | |
agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It | :18:24. | :18:31. | |
is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald | :18:36. | :18:37. | |
Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again, | :19:07. | :19:13. | |
of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
world have not been included in this. The point is they have made | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good | :21:45. | :21:52. | |
as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus. | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out, | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal, | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things. | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve, | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum, | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes. | :24:49. | :24:57. | |
If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election, | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for | :25:22. | :25:23. | |
being with us. It's just gone 11.25, | :25:24. | :25:25. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
be talking to our political panel. Hello and welcome to | :25:30. | :25:38. | |
the Sunday Politics Wales. He's not a politician, | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
not officially at least, but in his last interview | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
as Archbishop, Barry Morgan tells us why the Church needs | :25:47. | :25:48. | |
to speak out on politics. And after Jo Stevens' | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
resignation, what should Labour A senior Labour frontbencher | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
will be here to tell us. But first how would you feel | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
about getting a wad of money every Ministers in Wales say giving | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
everyone a guaranteed minimum income could help tackle | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
poverty and inequality. Others say it would be | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
far too expensive. Should every citizen receive | :26:12. | :26:12. | |
an automatic basic income to spend however they want, | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
no strings attached? It isn't a new question | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
and philosophers have debated it The policy does have fresh support | :26:23. | :26:24. | |
from the left and the right and here in Wales, | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
the Finance Secretary recently It is an idea with | :26:31. | :26:32. | |
considerable roots in our Always struggled to manage | :26:33. | :26:40. | |
to find a practical way of taking it forward but it is | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
an opportunity for us in Wales, to watch what is being attempted | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
elsewhere and to see whether we can do anything practical | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
with the idea ourselves. It isn't clear if or how | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
the Welsh Government could introduce a universal basic income | :26:57. | :26:58. | |
but Mark Drakeford says he will keep an eye on developments in Scotland | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
where there are efforts to launch The initiative has | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
cross-party support and the backing of | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
the RSA think tank. It explains a basic income | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
would be paid to everyone, regardless of whether they work | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
or not and so there is an extra incentive for unemployed people | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
to find a job as they wouldn't have to worry about losing benefits, | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
as happens under the current system. With a basic income, | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
moving from a system where you weren't working into one | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
you were, you will You retain your consistent payment | :27:33. | :27:34. | |
throughout that period. You are given the security to be | :27:35. | :27:51. | |
able to choose to work and also actually to be able to choose | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
work or training and set up your own In a way that is more beneficial | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
to you, rather than one Universal basic income has | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
already been trialled in a number of countries including | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
Brazil, India and the Netherlands and on the 1st of January this year, | :28:06. | :28:07. | |
Finland launched its own 2,000 unemployed people have been | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
picked at random to take part and they will each receive 560 euros | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
a month for the next two years, replacing money they | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
already get in benefits. And to put that figure into some | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
kind of context, the average private sector salary | :28:24. | :28:25. | |
in Finland is 3,500 euros a month. The scheme is managed by the agency | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
responsible for administering social The biggest response | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
from the big group of The biggest question has | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
been, is this for real? I can keep this 560 euros and then | :28:37. | :28:48. | |
take on a job and keep the earnings So this does not reduce my social | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
security and it is basically income. That is one response, | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
a very positive one. Critics say handing out | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
regular, unconditional payments to everyone could encourage | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
laziness and boost immigration. This is not a workable | :29:04. | :29:05. | |
scheme because it is It creates a tremendous tax | :29:06. | :29:17. | |
and disincentive for the average person further up | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
the income scale who is paying taxes Mark Drakeford has said he thinks | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
this is an attractive idea. It is quite worrying for Wales | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
because it is very expensive and if Wales did it on its own it is going | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
to be very expensive. Now, we are used to | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
the communist state north of Hadrian's Wall but I'm hoping Wales | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
won't go the same way towards this sort of extremely expensive | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
socialist experiment. The UK Government | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
rejected the idea last year, describing universal basic | :29:50. | :29:51. | |
income as unaffordable. Mark Drakeford meanwhile | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
accepts securing public support for the scheme | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
would be a challenge in light of negative tabloid | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
headlines in Scotland. This afternoon a special service | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
will be held for the retiring Barry Morgan is the longest serving | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
Archbishop in the Anglican Church, and he's never been afraid | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
to intervene in politics, He's busy today, of course, | :30:16. | :30:17. | |
so Felicity Evans spoke to him a few days ago, | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
when she asked whether having the Church interfere | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
in politics was appropriate. Some people, of course, | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
Christians among them, think that the Christian faith only | :30:32. | :30:32. | |
has to do with going to church, saying your prayers | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
and reading your Bible. They haven't looked very | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
carefully at the Bible because it has a great deal to say | :30:40. | :30:41. | |
about justice, a great deal to say about poverty and both the prophets | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
and Jesus said, it's no good just offering me worship unless you live | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
justly, if you don't take care of the poor, | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
if you don't look after refugees. Have you ever come out on a side | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
at some point and in retrospect thought, actually, I got that wrong | :30:59. | :31:09. | |
and I shouldn't have said that? I was on the wrong | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
side of the argument? There were some people who thought | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
I was wrong to come out over the deemed consent about organ | :31:16. | :31:17. | |
donation and the Welsh Government. I still believe that it was right | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
for the Church to speak as it did and I spoke on behalf | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
of the Church in Wales and on behalf of the bishops | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
because the clue was in the Some people misunderstood | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
that and thought that I was against organ donation | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
and of course, I'm certainly not. I was urging people to give organs | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
but to do so voluntarily. What about the Syria bombing | :31:41. | :31:47. | |
debate, when you urged MPs to vote against British military | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
involvement in bombing in Syria? In retrospect, having seen | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
the suffering inflicted upon civilian populations | :31:57. | :31:58. | |
across Syria by government and Russian bombing campaigns, | :31:59. | :32:00. | |
do you regret that Well, I'm not sure that | :32:01. | :32:01. | |
people listen to any advice that comes from | :32:02. | :32:14. | |
the episcopal bench anyway. You must have assumed | :32:15. | :32:16. | |
you had influence or you wouldn't have | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
said it, surely? Well, I'm speaking to my own | :32:21. | :32:22. | |
constituency and getting people to think about some | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
of the moral issues. I mean, our record in Iraq | :32:26. | :32:27. | |
and Afghanistan is not a happy one And when you look at the walls | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
of Llandaff Cathedral you see that we have been | :32:31. | :32:39. | |
involved in Afghanistan for a couple of hundred years and it has | :32:40. | :32:41. | |
always ended in tears. There is no kind of | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
right answer, is there? I just wish the situation | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
in Syria is not as it is but perhaps if we had gone in, | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
it might even be worse. What was your biggest | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
challenge, do you think, on taking up the position | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
of Archbishop of Wales? I don't know if I've thought of it | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
in terms of challenges like that. You know, you deal with | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
things from day-to-day So certainly I think it didn't make | :33:10. | :33:11. | |
any sense at all for women to be ordained to the diaconate | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
and to the priesthood and not to be ordained to the episcopate | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
because there are three orders I think that was pretty important | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
as a matter of justice, as a matter of equality and as a matter | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
of doing what was right, really. We have a resurgent Russia, | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
we have the crisis in Syria and the wider Middle East, | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
we have President Trump, What is your assessment | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
of the direction that we are heading in and | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
Wales's place in it? I think all the Church can do is be | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
with people as they wrestle with these issues and give | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
some kind of moral lead. I'm leaving, as you say, | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
and it is no longer my job to I will have my private | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
views but I think I shall It's been another week of high drama | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
on the Brexit front, but much of the focus has | :34:19. | :34:27. | |
been on Labour. The Shadow Welsh Secretary Jo | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
Stevens resigned on Friday over being forced to support triggering | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
Article 50. The Shadow Solicitor General and MP | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
for Torfaen, Nick Thomas-Simmonds, Good morning and thanks for coming | :34:38. | :34:54. | |
in. First of all, on the point about Jo Stevens and whether you think | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
more of your fellow Labour MPs will follow, is that what you expect? | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
Not necessarily. In respect of Jo Stevens, I think she was if a | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
drastic shadow were said and she has a great future in the party. Our | :35:08. | :35:15. | |
position is to respect the result of the referendum. It was the highest | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
national turnout since 1992. My constituency, Wales and the UK all | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
voted to leave. I think there is a crucial point here. Going around the | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
doors in the referendum I got the sense of people saying they didn't | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
feel politicians listened to them. I think it would be a mistake not to | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
listen to the result of the referendum, that would further | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
exacerbate the alienation in politics. | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
Is the difficulty for you and the Labour Party that around two thirds | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
of Labour Party members work for remain, but two thirds of Labour | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
constituencies were four leaf and to try to bring those things together | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
was almost impossible? -- were in favour of leaving. | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
The results are therefore everyone to see in various constituencies. | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
What unites us is the post Brexit Britain we want to see and in the | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
House of Commons we will see in above amendments by the Labour Party | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
to shape post Brexit Britain, maintaining the environmental | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
protections, workers' rights, trying to secure tariff free access to the | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
single market which is crucial to Wales because 60% of our exports go | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
to the EU and we need to ensure that we don't become some giant tax | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
haven. Coming onto those details in a | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
minute. Just on the Labour and Jeremy Corbyn issue. Was he right, | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
considering this is a huge issue for all Labour MPs, to use its three | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
line whip to say you must vote this way? | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
I think we need to be understanding about colleagues who take a | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
particular view because they have to. I do think it was very important | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
we sent out a signal that we respected the result of the | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
referendum. That is exactly what we are doing. We are now fighting to | :37:07. | :37:13. | |
protect jobs... Does that mean those Labour MPs who | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
don't vote to trigger Article 50 are not respecting the overall result, | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
such as Jo Stevens? What every MP has to do is look at | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
the conflicting issues, like all MPs do before they vote in the House of | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
Commons. Looking at their constituency and broader concerns | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
and what they judge best. This is a quite unprecedented situation and I | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
am sympathetic to colleagues who take a different view. Over the next | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
few weeks with the amendments being put down we will be fighting for the | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
kind of post Brexit Britain, a fair one that we want to see. | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
How local are you that over the next couple of weeks there will be | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
discussions about triggering Article 50 and it will be more broadbrush. | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
How confident are you that there will be a settled well in the House | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
of Commons that Labour MPs and surgeon Conservative MPs will have a | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
settled view on these votes? -- and surgeon Conservative MPs? I | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
don't know if we will until we see where the conversation is going | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
forward. We will do all we can to shape Brexit going forward but it is | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
the government that is doing the negotiation and people did not vote | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
to become poorer and it is for the government to carry out that | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
instruction from the public in a way that doesn't make Briton Laura. | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
They will be judged upon that. I guess on that point the government | :38:41. | :38:48. | |
won't want to have... You wouldn't want to see tightening of the | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
wriggle room you can give Theresa May because by doing that you are | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
handing the negotiation position by those dashed to those other EU | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
countries. I used to be a lawyer and mediator. | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
Nobody is suggesting you hand over the details of negotiation before. | :39:05. | :39:12. | |
We don't want Britain as an island tax haven... We need to be straight | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
on the trade-offs going forward. Immediately that cuts away to May's | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
last option because she has said she is willing to walk away and have low | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
tax, low regulation. You are immediately saying you can't have | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
that. What I'm absolutely saying is the | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
kind of nightmarish vision she is talking about, this bargain basement | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
Britain, where we would be competing to be a tax haven with the single | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
market would be a disaster. That doesn't cut away any of her | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
negotiating strength. Who would see that as an option to make the | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
country stronger? She needs to be held to account. | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
File with that sort of manifest itself over the next couple of | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
weeks? What kind of votes do you think we can see coming forward from | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
the Labour Party? You will see amendments on workers' | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
rights, environmental rights, consumer protection, a broader | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
amendment on post Brexit Britain, including tariff free access to the | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
single market, which is vital, but also an anti-tax avoidance amendment | :40:24. | :40:25. | |
to avoid is becoming a tax haven. Another big political week ahead - | :40:26. | :40:27. | |
we'll be back to talk about it We're @walespolitics on Twitter, | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
but for now that's all from me. Welcome back and let's get back | :40:31. | :40:39. | |
to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader, | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong | :40:53. | :41:05. | |
for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500 | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a | :42:20. | :42:28. | |
hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now, | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
discovering that being a president is different from being a business | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this, | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic. | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
opposite the next day. Brown did the same. | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide | :44:28. | :44:36. | |
because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
the major government, even though their position on the single | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble, | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies, | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony | :48:05. | :48:12. | |
Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever. | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this | :48:25. | :48:26. | |
week. The Daily Politics is back | :48:27. | :48:28. | |
tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday, | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :48:36. | :48:41. |