Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
done" - we'll speak to him and the party's | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
Later in the programme, Carwyn Jones on Labour divisions, | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
elections and retirement, and as the Article 50 | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
letter is sent, what role will Wales play in Brexit? | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:20. | :01:32. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:19. | :05:29. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:35. | :05:36. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:17. | :06:25. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:33. | :07:40. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:41. | :07:42. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:50. | :11:51. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:12. | :12:20. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :16:03. | :16:11. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:40. | :16:49. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:05. | :18:17. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :21:03. | :21:04. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:05. | :21:21. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:25. | :21:26. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:53. | :23:03. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:23. | :24:33. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:27. | :25:27. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:31. | :25:32. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:33. | :25:33. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:07. | :26:14. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:15. | :26:16. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:23. | :26:24. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:31. | :26:39. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:46. | :26:55. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:04. | :28:11. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:16. | :28:23. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:39. | :28:46. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:47. | :29:02. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:27. | :30:36. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:13. | :31:29. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:30. | :31:31. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:32. | :31:33. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:29. | :33:30. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:56. | :35:03. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :35:04. | :35:05. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very much. | :38:39. | :38:49. | |
Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales. | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
In a few minutes, what will triggering Article 50 mean | :38:53. | :38:54. | |
for Wales, and what role will we play in Brexit? | :38:55. | :39:02. | |
But first the Welsh Labour Party is meeting in Llandudno this weekend. | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
In his speech, Carwyn Jones mentioned the elections, | :39:05. | :39:06. | |
the NHS and a new idea, a fair pay commission. | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
But when I met him I began by asking about his reaction to the attack | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
People are inevitably on their guard. Sadly, it shows how much | :39:15. | :39:32. | |
damage is possible to do with a car and a knife, without explosives and | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
without firearms and it shows we always have to be on our guard. It | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
is difficult to try and spot somebody who might be thinking of | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
causing the mayhem that occurred, it is difficult when you do not know | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
what they are thinking. Intelligence meet its tips you so far. Let's go | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
through some of the main elements of the speech. You had some extra | :39:58. | :40:08. | |
money. The very emotive subject got a very strong response in the | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
conference hall. Some transport announcements. Tell me about this | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
fair pay commission and what you want to achieve with it. There is | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
not a lot of detail. What we found knocking doors during the referendum | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
is that people weren't happy with their job security and they felt | :40:28. | :40:35. | |
they didn't have pensions, they remember their parents having more | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
security and they say someone is to blame for this. If you look at | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
unemployment figures in Wales, we do not have a problem but that is not | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
something that we can just ignore. What we do have an issue with his | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
people's job security, low wages and we have to start dealing with that. | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
The next stage, setting up the commission, the unions and the | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
employers working together to him -- identify how we can put more money | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
into people's pockets and deliver more secure jobs closer to home. You | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
can't possibly... No one can possibly disagree with any of this | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
but the possibility the macro problem is the pay levels are in the | :41:19. | :41:25. | |
gift of the private sector. True, but we have major infrastructure | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
projects in Wales at the moment. They are important levers in | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
delivering skills, training, higher wages. It is not simply what you do | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
with the tax system. In the 1990s, a lot of well-paid jobs in Wales were | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
replaced by unskilled low paid jobs and even though unemployment figures | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
went down, incomes went down as well. We are still dealing with that | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
legacy. It is not good enough to say that is what happened then, we want | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
to make sure that having brought unemployment down, we now look at | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
improving people's wages, that is next. Claiming credit for saving the | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
Welsh steel industry, that is a heck of a claim, isn't it? We worked with | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
the unions, seminars, MPs, local councils, and we worked with Tata | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
Steel. The organisation missing from the jigsaw was the UK Government. | :42:20. | :42:27. | |
What would macro when David Cameron was... All the work that was done, | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
working with Tata Steel, though in fairness were a responsive company, | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
all the work that was done with the unions and the community, that was | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
done bias. With all due respect, there are huge global issues at | :42:42. | :42:49. | |
stake. To take sole response ready for saving the Welsh steel industry, | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
come on. We put money on the table. We worked with Tata Steel week in | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
week out. I met them all over the world just to show how important we | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
saw the Welsh steel industry as being. One thing we asked the UK | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
Government was to do was to reduce UK energy prices. They are the | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
amongst the highest in Europe. Higher than Germany or Spain. They | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
could not deliver that. Waiting times are going down, you said. | :43:22. | :43:29. | |
Where are they going down? A, for example. Response rates, going down. | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
It was said the Welsh NHS was worse and all of a sudden... If we look at | :43:38. | :43:47. | |
what is happening in England, the situation is worse in England. | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
Social care, we spend 6% more on social care per head than England | :43:55. | :44:02. | |
do. Here we are. We find now we are making sure with the announcements | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
we have made today, more money goes into social caring Wales. There has | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
not been a substantial reduction across the board in waiting times. | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
We have seen a substantial difference, there is no question | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
about that. Independent studies have taken place. Two years ago, an | :44:19. | :44:26. | |
attempt was made by the then UK Government to suggest the Welsh NHS | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
was useless. It was not the case at all. Waiting times are still | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
substantially longer in Wales than in England. In some areas, yes. | :44:35. | :44:45. | |
Cancer performances better. And we have done that even as the money | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
coming into Wales and the UK Government has been hammered. Big | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
focus, council elections. You are in control in 12 out of 22. Someone | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
told me if you retain control in eight or nine, that would be a good | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
night for you. Would you be happy with that? I remember this debate | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
last year with the assembly elections. We did a lot better. How | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
do we do that? Clear message, stand on your record, listen, work hard. | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
That is exactly what we have been doing in these council elections. We | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
want to do as well as we can and that means holding what we have at | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
the very least and saying to people, look what Labour councils have | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
delivered across Wales. Look at the economic growth, the houses being | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
built. I am more than happy to stand on that record. How concerned are | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
you about the divisions within the party at Westminster level? They do | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
not help. No one can argue it is helpful. In Wales, we do not have | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
that but we can have a debate within the party, that is part of a natural | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
democratic process but clearly, where you have quite severe | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
arguments between people in Westminster, that is not going to | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
help the party. That is why we need to see a sense of unity there that | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
we see in Wales. I always ask you this question, you have just turned | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
50, you have set yourself you have been in reflective mood. How long | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
are you going to go on for? People try and read what I have said and | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
read something into it. I have just turned 50. I am much younger than | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
Theresa May and David Cameron. There is a lot of work to do. Particularly | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
with Brexit. I am still as enthusiastic as I ever was. I have | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
given no thought as to when I will stand down. There has been a sense | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
that you will stand down once you have done ten years. In other words, | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
you will not fight another assembly election campaign. I have only just | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
come through the loss. I am focused on delivering the best deal for | :46:57. | :46:58. | |
Wales with Brexit. That will be hugely important. The last thing | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
that should happen is they should be a sudden change of government in | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
Wales. People who have been there for a while and to have seen what | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
has happened in the past, we can get to a point where we have a sensible | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
Brexit. First Minister, thank you very much. | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
You heard Carwyn Jones there talking about Brexit. | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
This week the UK will let Brussels know, officially, | :47:24. | :47:25. | |
But what will triggering Article 50 mean for Wales and what kind | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
Bethan Lewis now on that all important letter. | :47:32. | :47:40. | |
This week, it is all about the letter. The letter that will arrive | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
on the desk of the European Council president in Brussels. The letter | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
that triggers Article 50 and begins the formal process of Wales and the | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
UK leaving the European Union. Everyone knows it has been coming. | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
Theresa May said months ago that she would send the Article 50 letter to | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
the European Council president by the end of March and that is when | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
the clock starts ticking, with two years to work out exactly how this | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
most complicated of divorces will happen. A Spitfire greets you when | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
you arrive at this company near Bridgend. It employs around 150 | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
people making ground support equipment for dozens of airlines and | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
governments across the world. Working with Nato and the United | :48:31. | :48:40. | |
Nations. Some of these stairs are going to Japan. And some of them are | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
going to Luton airport. Owner Duncan Barber was a guest at a roundtable | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
discussion with the Prime Minister when she visited South Wales on | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
Monday. He voted to remain in the European Union last June but now he | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
is optimistic about Brexit. It was a shock. And I think afterwards, there | :48:59. | :49:08. | |
was a lot of uncertainty. But since then, I think as the government has | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
got its act together, the government has surprised the nation, there is a | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
growing confidence. I am positive. Very positive. But we have got to | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
get Lee and we have got to deliver and we have got to deliver | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
competitively and as always for the United Kingdom, to the highest | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
quality. For farmers, the talks ahead will be crucial. This farmer | :49:33. | :49:42. | |
's main business is goats milk. Gary wanted to stay in the European | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
Union, though many farmers did not. I think there has been a lot of | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
misinformation. And it is quite hard to see the wood for the trees | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
really. We have not seen what is going to be the state of play for | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
agriculture, so it is a bit of a time of uncertainty. Welsh farming | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
is heavily dependent on funding from the European Union and on exporting | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
to its markets. Over 90% of Welsh meat is exported to the European | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
Union and an assembly committee report says there are grave risk for | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
Welsh agriculture if the UK fails to agree a trade deal with the European | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
Union. The cherries a Brexit enthusiast but has concerns about | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
what is ahead. What we as a committee want to ensure is access | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
to the single market because in the agricultural sector, which is | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
important for Wales, tariffs would be very high. 40 or 60% for some | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
products. Avoiding those will be very important for the future of | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
agriculture in Wales. In Abergavenny town centre, people have had nine | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
months to get used to the idea of leaving the European Union, with | :50:52. | :50:53. | |
only days until the practicalities get started. In last June 's | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
referendum, the vote in Monmouthshire was closer than in any | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
other part of Wales. It was virtually 50-50, with a small | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
majority for remain. But with the process of surely about to start, | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
how do people here feel about it now? We have got to get on with it. | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
At the end of the day, I to remain. But they are going, so we are going. | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
I voted out but I wish we hadn't. I am worried. We won't have as many | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
nurses, and things like this. It is all going wrong. Back in the | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
factory, Duncan Barbour feels there are opportunities ahead now the | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
direction of travel has been set. Now the hard work begins and when it | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
drops, the contents of the letter will begin the process assists -- | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
offsetting Wales' economic future for decades to come. | :51:52. | :51:53. | |
Joining me now to talk about what this all means for Wales | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
are the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood and the Welsh | :51:57. | :51:58. | |
Conservative leader, Andrew RT Davies. | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
Let me start with you, Leanne Wood. The phoney war is over and we are | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
about to start this process. You fought a good fight to try and stop | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
is getting to this stage. Does Plaid Cymru need to change the tone with | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
which it approaches this subject? Plaid Cymru is always going to | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
advocate the Welsh National Mining test. What is in the best interest | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
of Wales is what we will champion at all times. Up until now and beyond | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
now even, we still have no idea what is really going to be in this | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
Article 50 letter. The key thing for Wales is that we stop any kind of | :52:35. | :52:42. | |
extreme Tory Brexit, a hard Brexit that will pull us out of the single | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
market. We have said very clearly that it is in Wales' best interests | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
to retain our single market membership. Good to are exported | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
into the European Union, 67% of everything we export from Wales goal | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
to the European Union and it is 90% if you look at agricultural | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
products. The membership of that market is very important. I see the | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
list and we have had it for months. But the process is now starting. The | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
danger is you could appear irrelevant because the reality will | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
be happening now over the next 18 months. To what extent do you change | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
things? But we still don't know what will happen. And it is a two-way | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
process. Whatever the Prime Minister decides to take into those | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
negotiations, she has to be prepared to compromise because that is the | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
nature of negotiations and there is another side. There are 27 states | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
that will have a position as well. Whatever is in the letter, we have | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
to expect movement on that overtime. To what extent will you change your | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
tone as well? What has been branded the sunny uplands metric post | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
Brexit. If we get a bad deal, will you call it a bad deal or will you | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
be so desperate to justify the league position, you will take | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
whatever we get? Not at all. It is about the national interest. I would | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
suggest the national interest of Wales was set on June the 23rd when | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
the majority of Welsh people voted for us to renegotiate our | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
relationship with Europe and come out of Europe. That is the national | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
interest of Wales. On Wednesday, Article 50 is going to be evoked and | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
the negotiations start and it is correct to point out that it is a | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
two-way negotiation. Everything has been focused on what the | :54:35. | :54:36. | |
Conservative government in Westminster along with the devolved | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
administrations... Theresa May has been in Wales five times since she | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
has been Prime Minister. There is extensive dialogue set out but we | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
also need to know what the European Union wants and there is no | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
coherence with the outside of the argument. A bad deal, walk away from | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
it? I don't think we will get a bad deal? There is a great opportunity | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
to engage economic tea, socially and culturally with Europe. This is | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
about as taking the decisions in this country and bringing | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
sovereignty back to this country so those decisions are taken by the | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
politicians elected in the United Kingdom. I have seen very little | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
evidence of the Prime Minister really listening to the needs of | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
Wales. We have not had any sense when she has turned up... She is | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
delivering what people want, which is to leave the European Union. But | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
we are talking about how we leave the European now. We accept the | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
result and the result is accepted by everybody. The question is how we | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
leave and we have had very little detail from the Prime Minister or | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
evidence that she has actually consulted and listened to the Wales | :55:43. | :55:50. | |
position. It is about how much information we actually get. You | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
must realise she does not want to give a running commentary but she | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
cannot just stay silent for 18 months and expect us to accept | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
whatever we get. She has been the Prime Minister for nine months. She | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
has organised her government around these negotiations, so there are | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
departments in Whitehall dedicated to the negotiations and also she has | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
included the devolved administrations and had extensive | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
discussions along with the Secretary of State and I fully expect Leanne | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
Wood to take a political position that is trying to rubbish those | :56:27. | :56:28. | |
negotiations but one simple point, the Welsh government paper talks | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
about participation. I have tried to understand what that means. Carwyn | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
Jones is very vague on this. Leanne Wood has talked about having full | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
access and membership of the single market, which she said in her | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
conference speech. Labours official position is they have a blank sheet | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
of paper. That is their official position. But the Tories are | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
prepared to walk away from the single market entirely and operate | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
under World Trade Organisation rules. That would be disastrous for | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
the farming industry and for Welsh manufacturers as well. These are the | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
kind of guarantees that Plaid Cymru MPs had been trying to seek through | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
the process. Guarantees about our funding, about those European Union | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
citizens living here and we have had nothing. We have had no sense from | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
the Prime Minister and her team that she is listening to the needs | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
outlined in that white Paper jointly presented by the Welsh Government | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
and Plaid Cymru. The Prime Minister in her speech in Sophia Gardens was | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
talking specifically about workers' rights. She can talk about what she | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
likes. You can't guarantee your own position at the moment. You are | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
talking about... You want independence for Wales. That is | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
hardly giving... Hardly giving clarity and offering leadership. The | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
Prime Minister is offering leadership and she has moved her | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
government to be on a negotiating footing for the next two years. What | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
should the red lines be? Should the red line be the World Trade | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
Organisation rules? Tariffs would go up significantly, potentially | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
devastating for the farming industry. The red line is that | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
Parliament and the assemblies of the United Kingdom have sovereignty on | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
the issues and ultimately that is what the red line has to be because | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
that is what we voted on. All the negotiations will revolve around | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
that and actually having access and agreement on the single market could | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
be relatively easy because most trade negotiations revolve around | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
setting standards and conformity around goods. We have those | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
standards, we have at conformity, so there is not those big debate to be | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
had. If Europe want to engage positively, which I hope they will, | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
5 million jobs depend with won-macro on trade with Britain, if the Irish | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
beef market does not have access to Britain, it will collapse. So there | :59:03. | :59:09. | |
are negotiating positions on both sides of this. And ultimately if | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
there are sensibilities on both sides, we can get a good agreement | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
and we can move, as you said, to those sunny uplands. Leanne Wood, | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
the red line for the primaries there has to be ending free movement of | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
labour as we know it. We have outlined a number of guarantees we | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
seek. There are questions about workers' rights, environmental | :59:33. | :59:33. | |
protections, access to the free market. No tariffs on goods coming | :59:34. | :59:47. | |
in to the UK. We have put forward that says it would mean that Wales | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
would operate like a Norwegian system, where free movement would | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
still be there, particularly for students and so on but there would | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
be an element of linking that to work, to make sure that we don't | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
lose vital staff within our health service and manufacturing industry. | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
There are clear guarantees that we have said Wales needs and we have | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
had nothing in terms of feedback as to what those guarantees will be. | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
Strippers all away. -- strip this all away. It is the key point, can | :00:20. | :00:31. | |
she achieve it? I believe she can. Isn't that what the former Prime | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
Minister tried to achieve in his negotiations prior to leaving? How | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
on earth would we -- would it be sensible for the European Union to | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
agree to those terms after the UK has voted to leave when they were | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
not prepared to do it before. That is the key point. Why would they | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
accept that? They cannot make it too easy. The debate and discussion has | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
moved on from one David Cameron was going to Brussels. When you look at | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
the referendum that is happening in Turkey and the potential influx of | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
migrants over the summer and refugees as well, there is now a | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
dynamic of work in Europe that actually says we cannot... If they | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
do continue as they are, the whole edifice will implode. Ultimately, | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
there is a critical way land a political understanding that things | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
need to change. I do not accept that. The refugee crisis has been | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
going on for a long time. People are dead in the Mediterranean Sea on a | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
daily basis in large numbers. There has been little political will from | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
anyone to do with that. I have to leave it there at that point. | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you. | :01:41. | :01:55. | |
So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday | :01:56. | :02:12. | |
at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion - | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat, | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday, | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
will trigger Article 50, formally starting | :02:25. | :02:26. | |
The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
made an appeal for unity at the gathering. | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors. | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds, | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on | :02:59. | :03:17. | |
that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years, | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent. | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that | :04:12. | :04:29. | |
doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is | :04:37. | :04:38. | |
effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
process, people looking at this would think it is Mission: | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well, | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me! | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements? | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
which could really result in a change of Government... That is the | :06:40. | :06:52. | |
big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory | :06:59. | :07:00. | |
observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see, | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form | :07:52. | :08:04. | |
a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional | :08:14. | :08:15. | |
arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU | :09:34. | :09:45. | |
march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people | :10:00. | :10:08. | |
like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be, | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean. | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free | :10:58. | :11:16. | |
movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that | :11:21. | :11:22. | |
outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
everywhere else where there are British citizens would have | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always. | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
night from Birmingham - with guests including | :13:23. | :13:23. | |
the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer, | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond - | :13:27. | :13:28. | |
I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One. | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's | :13:35. | :13:38. |