Browse content similar to 28/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi, | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Are the politicians and the security services doing | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute" | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
for a new Commission to counter extremism. | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
We'll be talking to the Security Minister. | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000 | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
Have you read the manifestos yet? and intelligence agencies. | :01:08. | :01:17. | |
We'll tell you all you need to know, while Labour is in the hot seat | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
We'll tell you all you need to know, supporters. In London, we look at | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain. | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. | :01:35. | :01:36. | |
They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
And some recent polls suggest the race is just | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first, | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so: | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews. | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
there will be no break in campaigning for | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto - | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
representatives from the seven main parties debate in front | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview... | :02:37. | :02:45. | |
Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
They won't debate each other, but will take questions | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
consecutively from members of the audience. | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm, | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th. | :03:11. | :03:12. | |
Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading. | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
There are five new opinion polls today, which have | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
points to 14 points. So, what's going on? | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow. | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They | :03:37. | :03:45. | |
may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major | :04:28. | :04:38. | |
sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend. | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come. | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do. | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter. | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing. | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
stable leadership and then you do something like a massive | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts | :09:31. | :09:32. | |
about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
promises about things you care about like your electricity bill. | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
policies affect their lives. Thank you very much. | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
The election campaign was, of course, put on hold | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
following the terrorist attack in Manchester | :11:00. | :11:00. | |
But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
surprising that security is now a primary concern. | :11:04. | :11:05. | |
The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts | :11:09. | :11:22. | |
have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
hope they would have the resources to act as well. | :11:45. | :11:45. | |
Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and | :11:49. | :11:57. | |
Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut | :12:29. | :12:37. | |
by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas | :12:46. | :12:55. | |
identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
well. You are not committing anything more. The government has | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is -- | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and | :13:47. | :13:54. | |
more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary. | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power. | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
We need to listen to the intelligence community and the | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
security service, to the army and the police, about what they think | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
political career voting against measures designed to tackle | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
security services, what he said about the international situation | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President | :16:20. | :16:20. | |
Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and | :16:21. | :16:29. | |
security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
2000, it gave the Secretary of State Corbyn still think that is a bad | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly | :17:28. | :17:35. | |
there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama, | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder, | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been | :18:02. | :18:14. | |
solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but | :18:15. | :18:16. | |
your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At | :18:31. | :18:40. | |
the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
and murder lies with the murder, and me is that the Prime Minister | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
and murder lies with the murder, and the other day that in Jeremy | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with | :19:05. | :19:18. | |
him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together | :19:38. | :19:39. | |
on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
extremism, including the "non-violent" kind, | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning, | :19:50. | :19:51. | |
the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants | :19:52. | :19:53. | |
for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :19:56. | :20:09. | |
Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies. | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
international response. I think there are a range of issues. We | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
social media companies take down this material? We have an act that | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
have right now officials from my department over in the United States | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this, | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I | :23:28. | :23:36. | |
understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
is more about examining how much progress you can make. The | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being | :24:54. | :25:03. | |
monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers. | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 | :25:43. | :25:52. | |
billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it, | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders, | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation. | :26:22. | :26:29. | |
Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box. | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they | :26:35. | :26:43. | |
are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation. | :27:09. | :27:16. | |
You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all | :27:34. | :27:41. | |
sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James | :28:22. | :28:33. | |
Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you. | :28:34. | :28:35. | |
The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns | :28:44. | :28:45. | |
about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy. | :28:46. | :28:47. | |
In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
investigating radicalisation in the UK. | :28:51. | :28:51. | |
Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society, | :28:52. | :28:53. | |
and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire. | :28:57. | :28:57. | |
We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray. | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance, | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism - | :29:10. | :29:27. | |
Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
the sources of the problem, and polite society | :29:31. | :29:32. | |
This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people, | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
one for each year of life this country had given him. | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
We need to think far more deeply about all this. | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam. | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this? | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible. | :30:09. | :30:20. | |
Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill, | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states, | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country. | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
It is high time we became serious too. | :30:34. | :30:44. | |
Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country. | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it? | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims. | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities, | :31:18. | :31:26. | |
hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
I've seen politicians and charities partner | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
with and support some of these voices and groups. | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual. | :32:06. | :32:14. | |
We must counter those who seek to divide us. | :32:15. | :32:24. | |
Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book, | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said, | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting? | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in | :33:17. | :33:25. | |
the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations, | :33:48. | :33:49. | |
Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain? | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that. | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to | :35:59. | :36:06. | |
the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that. | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of | :36:34. | :36:35. | |
thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
like Salford University you should be held responsible for not | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
get real about that. Thank you very much. | :38:51. | :38:51. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :38:52. | :38:53. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead. | :38:57. | :39:07. | |
In a few minutes our five minute guide to the manifestos | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
But first the latest of our interviews with the main | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
We've already heard from Plaid Cymru, Ukip and the LibDems. | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
The Conservatives will be here next week. | :39:23. | :39:24. | |
Its campaign co-ordinator Wayne David is with me now. | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
Good morning. I guess it's almost a positive morning for Labour, | :39:32. | :39:43. | |
considering, we've seen in some opinion polls a narrowing of the | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
lead for the Conservatives. Is that a good news day or does more need to | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
be done? Inevitably, there is a shadow of | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
this election campaign after what happened in Manchester and our | :39:58. | :39:58. | |
sympathy go out happened in Manchester and our | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
sympathy go out to the victim and their families there. | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
In terms of opinion polls shifts, yes positive movement for Labour. | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
This election shows that there is everything to fight for still. | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
Do you think it being a foregone conclusion for the Conservatives at | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
the beginning of the campaign has helped to Labour and hindered the | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
Tories? There's been a degree of arrogance | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
as far as the Conservatives are concerned. They took people's votes | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
for granted. They've had a very lacklustre campaign and Theresa May | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
has not come across particularly well in contrast to the Labour | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
campaign. Particularly in Wales, why has the | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
being almost no mention of the party's leader in Wales? | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
Jeremy Corbyn has been to Wales and has been well received in Cardiff. | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
I am sure he will come to Wales again. It is important to recognise | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
that the Labour Party in Wales is fighting this campaign as Welsh | :40:59. | :41:00. | |
Labour. Carwyn Jones is the leader of Welsh | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
Labour. But when MPs, when there are | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
presumably some Labour MPs return to Westminster, they don't follow | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
Carwyn Jones's lead, they follow the Labour whip in Westminster. | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
But things are changing. So we'll Carwyn Jones sent the Labour MP's | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
whip in Westminster? There is a new relationship between | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
London and Welsh Labour. We'll see a new relationship which is | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
manifesting itself in our manifesto. There are clear commitments which | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
apply specifically to Wales. Our allegiances to Colin Jones, | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
first and foremost. So whatever Carwyn Jones says in | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
future goals, even if it contradicts what Jeremy Corbyn says? | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
We have a strong partnership. Our responsibilities to make sure there | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
are contradictions. So if there is conflict, who has the final say, | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
surely it is Jeremy Corbyn? It depends what the issues are. As | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
far as the election is concerned we are fighting an Welsh and devolved | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
issues. We want devolution taken forward. | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
When it comes to issues at the centre the party in London has a | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
crucial relationship with Labour MPs, I think that's very clear. Not | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
everyone in the media has grasped the complexity of the situation. | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
It is a new ball game completely. I am pleased to say it is working well | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
for Labour. When it comes to, for example, | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
immigration what is the Labour Party position? | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
We recognise that we are leaving the European Union, there is an end to | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
free movement, that is fact. That is recognised by everyone. | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
But what do you want to replace it? We want a system whereby immigration | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
is not capped. We want it judged on what contribution migrants can make | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
to the economy. We think it's important that we continue with | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
immigration as far as the health service is concerned. | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
But I'm talking about a plan for the future. Carwyn Jones, and he said | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
this morning, there should be a system where people come here for | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
three months to look for a job, then they had to leave. | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
Is that party policy or not? It does not contradict anything. | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
That is car win's... But if he is the leader in Wales, that is your | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
policy. The immigration policy is determined | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
at a UK level. So that's Jeremy Corbyn tromping Carwyn Jones Commies | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
and it? It's not a case of trumping. It is not a contradiction at UK | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
level. It takes it slightly further and | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
refined it. It's not a contradiction. But it's | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
meaningless, because Carwyn Jones can say what he likes about | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
immigration, no one has to listen. It is not meaningless. It is an | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
outline of what we want to achieve. Carwyn Jones expressed a specific | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
point of view, which I'm sure will carry an enormous amount of weight | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
if Labour winds the election. Why are there no specifics on your | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
manifesto? Ours is longer than any manifesto | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
we've ever produced. You cannot imagine the fine detail of every | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
single policy included in the manifesto. We want a clear direction | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
of travel. The direction of travel as clear as far as immigration. An | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
end to free movement, that is coming. We want to judge immigration | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
on the basis of what contribution migrants can make to our economy. | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
But we've seen on tax and spending, we've seen a bit of detail from the | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
party there. Unfortunately, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, very | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
well regarded economic forecasting body, says it would mean higher | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
taxes more spending than we've ever seen during peace time in this | :45:00. | :45:01. | |
country. Is that what you're going for? The | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
Labour Party has spelt out its commitments very clearly. Wales will | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
benefit enormously from that. What is important, I think, is | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
recognising that those who are wealthy will be asked to pay a bit | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
more. A great mass of people will not see an increase in their | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
taxation. That's important to emphasise. That is not contradicted | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
by any economist, anyway. No, no, but fact remains that the | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
tax levels would be set at record levels in peace time since 1945 at | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
the highest level. Are you comfortable without? I would | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
put emphasis on the point I just made. We aren't talking about an | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
increase in taxation for all people. We are talking about an increase in | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
taxation for the top 5%. What we've seen over the last five years is a | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
discrepancy in our society between the very rich and varied pool are | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
getting ever greater. We want that narrowed. We want a | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
fairer society where everybody has equal opportunity and everybody is | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
able to contribute and fulfil their aspirations. | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
But what the ISS says is that you are pretending everything can be | :46:14. | :46:23. | |
paid for by somebody else. Their tax rates will not raise anything like | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
the ?48.6 billion you are claiming. Are you being honest with voters? | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
I believe we are. The predictions are based upon greater measures of | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
tax avoidance, people seeking to take money abroad, and they won't be | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
paying the contributions we expect them to pay. Part of our packages to | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
make certain that there are measures in place to prevent tax avoidance, | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
to prevent people taking money abroad. International controls which | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
work for the partners in Europe and across the world to make sure there | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
is that social control of capital which we need to see. | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
How happy have you been with Jeremy Corbyn's performance since the | :47:04. | :47:16. | |
campaign was launched? I think he's performed very well. | :47:17. | :47:18. | |
The important thing is that he is being himself. That is in sharp | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
contradiction to the Prime Minister who is being evasive and duplicitous | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
at times. Even if people don't like Jeremy Corbyn, he's an honest, | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
decent man. Have you changed your mind on him? A | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
year ago you were saying you don't think he'd have relevant policies or | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
could provide strong leadership, were you wrong AMs I think it's | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
important to recognise that I, and many others, had reservations about | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. That hasn't changed, but we all | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
recognise that when you compare Jeremy Corbyn to Theresa May, that | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
tries people are faced with, there's no doubt in my mind that Jeremy | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
Corbyn would be a far better Prime Minister. | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
That's faint praise if the best you can say about your own party leader | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
is that he's better than Theresa May, the leader of the | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
Conservatives. Politics is about choice. And I | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
think Jeremy has come across as a man of principle, a man of decency | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
and a man of vision. I am more than happy to support him on that basis. | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
Now we're all in favour, I hope, of creating a stronger economy, | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
a more just society and a better world for our children. | :48:24. | :48:25. | |
And surprise surprise, so are the parties | :48:26. | :48:27. | |
But beyond the promises and pleasantries, what is there | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
Our reporter Carl Roberts loves going to bed with a good book, | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
Well, the political parties' Welsh manifestos have been launched. | :48:35. | :48:56. | |
You're there you are, essential bedtime reading if you're | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
But you might not want to read them all. | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
So we've picked out the main pledges for you. | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
Plaid Cymru was the first party to launch its manifesto, | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
enticingly entitled Action Plan 2017. | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
We've got the record, we've got the team. | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
And with today's manifesto, we've got the vision. | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
Today, we rally behind something which is much | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
What we have today is an action plan. | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
The Prime Minister, Theresa May, went to Gresford, near Wrexham, | :49:38. | :49:49. | |
The Prime Minister, Theresa May, went to Gresford, near Wrexham, | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
to launch the Welsh Conservative manifesto, while the Secretary | :49:57. | :49:58. | |
of State for Wales, the keen marathon runner, | :49:59. | :50:00. | |
gave the BBC's Laura Kunesberg, the runaround. | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
The Welsh Conservative manifesto I launched today | :50:09. | :50:10. | |
is a plan to make the most of the opportunities to gather. | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
It is a plan to make Wales, and our union, stronger. | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
But this manifesto sets out a vision of Britain around | :50:21. | :50:23. | |
The Welsh Conservative manifesto, Forward Together, pledges: | :50:24. | :50:42. | |
One man and his dog turned up for the Labour manifesto launched | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
it's called Standing Up For Wales, the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
Our Welsh manifesto is an ambitious, comprehensive plan for | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
what Welsh Labour can do together in the Assembly. | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
Unlike the Tories, we stand ready to deliver on the big projects that | :51:03. | :51:10. | |
Ukip Wales's manifesto is called Wales Into The World. | :51:11. | :51:27. | |
So it's apt that it was launched in the Norwegian Church in Cardiff Bay. | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
The launch of the Ukip manifesto nationally | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
is going on simultaneously with this launch here in Cardiff. | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
And our manifesto for Wales fits into a wider matrix | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
Changing Wales's Future is the Welsh Liberal Democrat's manifesto, | :51:47. | :52:04. | |
launched in the pharmaceutical factory in Hay on Wye. | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
fully aware of what they wanted when they voted on June 23. | :52:09. | :52:28. | |
The negotiations, of course, are in doubt. | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
We don't know what those terms are going to be. | :52:32. | :52:33. | |
We don't know what the impact of coming out of the single | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
The impact on our family farms, the manufacturing sector, | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
The main pledges, from the political parties in Wales. | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
They've made their beds, and after all that reading, | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
I'm tired, and I need a little snooze. | :52:49. | :52:57. | |
So, with less than a fortnight to go, where are we going | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
Dylan Jones-Evans is Professor of Entrepreneurship | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
at the University of South Wales and a former Conservative candidate. | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
Bethan Darwin is a lawyer, author and founder of the Superwoman | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
Thank you both very much for coming in for a quick chat. It's been a | :53:10. | :53:23. | |
difficult week for so many reasons. I guess for the political parties, | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
moving on from such terrible events and trying to resume the campaign | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
has been difficult. How do you think they've coped with that? | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
I think they've done the best they could in the circumstances. It's | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
difficult to move quickly away from something so horrendous. | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
And a van to focus on electioneering. I think they've done | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
the best they could in the circumstances to look forward to | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
June eight. Some people have said it's too long, others said it should | :53:59. | :54:00. | |
have been longer. I think it about right. In a | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
previous life, you would a candidate, is it's difficult? On the | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
one hand you must be keen to get out there, but on the other you have two | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
be sensitive to what is a difficult set of circumstances? | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
It's been a short campaign already. What you will see over the next ten | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
or 12 days is a concertina on what should have been on the campaign | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
trail in the previous week into this week. That will change the dynamic | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
of the election. Any political party will have a plan leading up to | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
election day and they will ratchet up. Whatever focus they want to have | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
on the opposition, that will be far more intense snow over the next few | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
days. As it would have been if we didn't have the atrocity in | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
Manchester. We've had calls from ITV Wales and | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
Cardiff University over the past few weeks, first of all saying that the | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
Conservatives were miles ahead in Wales and would win a majority of | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
seats. And then we had another one on Monday which said, no, Labour and | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
the lead again. Normal service resumes. How would the campaigns be | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
looking at those polls? Most of the campaigners would | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
continue as there are not respond to these polls. In the end, there's | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
only one poll that counts and that's the one on the day it sounds. Most | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
of the candidates will have a particular plan, and will continue | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
knocking doors as they will. These are polls, and as we've seen in the | :55:42. | :55:50. | |
last three elections, the polls have been wildly out. One can't say if | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
the polls will save Labour or the Conservatives. I guarantee they will | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
be another postmortem today after an well-regarded right or wrong. | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
We were talking only about the campaign from Labour in Wales. Have | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
you been surprised that they've concentrated so much an Carwyn | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
Jones? Is there a danger that could be confusing considering that Carwyn | :56:14. | :56:15. | |
Jones isn't standing in the selection? | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
I think they're trying to distance themselves from Jeremy Corbyn. They | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
are trying to show that they are in this 2-party contest, Jeremy Corbyn | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
versus Theresa May. Welsh Labour want to distance themselves a little | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
bit from Corbyn and push Welsh Labour versus national labour. | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
Do you think people buying that? Do you think, or when David was saying | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
that there is devolution and we have to change the relationship, do you | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
think people go, yeah, fair enough, or do they think they just don't | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
fancy having Corbyn plastered all over the place? | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
I think they do buy it. Because we have the National Assembly and Plaid | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
Cymru performing so well. Leanne Wood continues to perform well in | :57:08. | :57:14. | |
every public outing she has, I think that people are looking at it from a | :57:15. | :57:21. | |
Welsh perspective far more. They are looking at Welsh Labour and Plaid | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
Cymru, that is the chance we are meeting in this election. If you are | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
left wing and believe that you've got a bigger table, you should share | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
it with others, you are looking at Labour or Plaid Cymru. People will | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
have to make that choice based on a Welsh perspective. I think it does | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
make a difference and people understand that difference. But | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
Welsh Labour is part of national labour. | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
But we know that in Wales, more so than Scotland and Northern Ireland | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
people get their news from London. The Fleet Street newspapers. Has | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
that been interesting, that even from the polls we've seen today, | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
they are all showing that the polls suggest a narrowing of the lead for | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
the Conservatives. But we are still talking even with | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
the most pessimistic Paul, a 50 seat majority. Why was this election | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
called? Everybody in the country is generally sick of elections over the | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
last few years, and referenda, the whole point about this was giving | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
the Prime Minister and the Conservative Party a stronger | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
mandate to drive through Brexit. We haven't heard almost nothing on | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
Brexit over the last two weeks. And, of course, when you talk about other | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
policies, if we don't get that particular negotiation right, then | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
we can't even start talking about social care, economic policy... We | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
need to get those negotiations right and we forgotten that is what this | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
was election was about. I think that will happen. Are you | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
surprised there's been so little talk about Brexit? What is the very | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
nature of discussions but they haven't happen yet does that mean | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
it's inevitable that you can't give too many details? | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
I think the point was the Prime Minister has been trying to say who | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
is the best person. That's been her line. I think that message has been | :59:17. | :59:24. | |
lost. You've seen in the papers today, allegations of infighting | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
amongst close advisers, that's what's different. When the last | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
campaign was run for David Cameron they had one message and drove it | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
through. They surprised everyone by winning that significant majority | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
considering the circumstances. That's got to change again if the | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
Conservatives were to get that lead in the polls that they need. If | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
Theresa May ends up with the same majority as before people will say | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
what was the point of all this? Are we seeing a squeezing of smaller | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
parties? You mentioned Plaid Cymru there, they aren't Ukip and the | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
Liberal Democrats, are they being squeezed out? | :00:06. | :00:11. | |
Yes. Completely. Not just squeezed out by campaigning, but by their | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
election results, with the Lib Dems having just nine MPs and 1am. | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
They've lost their place in the discussion. And Ukip, I think | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
everybody feels like they've done it now. They've achieved Brexit, why | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
are you still hear? Those roadside in this world for other parties to | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
pick up. I guess the interesting thing in the | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
Welsh vote is with those second... Those former Ukip routes could go? I | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
know a lot of them are going to the Conservatives. But in the valleys | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
where I am from they could go back to Labour. The ones that went to | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
Ukip were traditional Labour voters. They could go to Labour again, or | :00:57. | :01:05. | |
they could go to Plaid Cymru. The great unknown. It's a really | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
interesting time. It is a new and unpredictable world but June it will | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
reveal. So neither of you will give me a | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
prediction? For Wales or for the UK? It's | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
difficult. You've seen the surge. I think everybody said at the | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
beginning that this campaign would be the turnout election. It's | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
whether people are tired of elections, and some people in the | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
Labour Party might think there is no point voting because we will lose. | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
Others might be strengthened by the polls and say because filters, Ukip | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
voters likely there is no point, we got what we want. What we back the | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
part we want to back. Thank you for your lack of | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
Thank you for your lack of productions! | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
Join us next week as the election gallops into its final furlong. | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
You can follow all the latest on twitter, we're @walespolitics | :01:58. | :01:59. | |
but for now that's all from me time to go back to Jo. | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership. | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election | :02:04. | :02:18. | |
campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here. | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope, | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack | :03:16. | :03:24. | |
just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister, | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media. | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
time to review the level of argument? This is a political | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem, | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst. | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power | :06:07. | :06:14. | |
Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in | :07:59. | :08:07. | |
terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65 | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks. | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead. | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge. | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr. | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations. | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
We are making good progress with the companies who put in place | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago. | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer, | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I | :11:33. | :11:44. | |
did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it | :11:49. | :12:01. | |
seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye. | :13:35. | :13:40. |