28/05/2017 Sunday Politics Wales


28/05/2017

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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:39.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

:00:40.:00:43.

on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

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Are the politicians and the security services doing

:00:47.:00:48.

Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

:00:49.:00:54.

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

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for a new Commission to counter extremism.

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We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

:01:02.:01:05.

Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

:01:06.:01:07.

Have you read the manifestos yet? and intelligence agencies.

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We'll tell you all you need to know, while Labour is in the hot seat

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We'll tell you all you need to know, supporters. In London, we look at

:01:22.:01:25.

what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.

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To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by

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Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.

:01:35.:01:36.

They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join

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So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign

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And some recent polls suggest the race is just

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We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,

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here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:

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Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.

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This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions

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While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,

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there will be no break in campaigning for

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And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall

:02:17.:02:23.

On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -

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the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's

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Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see

:02:30.:02:33.

representatives from the seven main parties debate in front

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On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...

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Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May

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They won't debate each other, but will take questions

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consecutively from members of the audience.

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The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians

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cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go

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We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,

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with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.

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Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion

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And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.

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There are five new opinion polls today, which have

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the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six

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points to 14 points. So, what's going on?

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Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn

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to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.

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Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They

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may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of

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these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying

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before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the

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Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour

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vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative

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lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are

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now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can

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no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some

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posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get

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rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major

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sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if

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they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of

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those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether

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the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing

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more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot

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box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a

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landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a

:05:04.:05:09.

majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground

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depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour

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Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week

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one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of

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people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I

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usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.

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They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have

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looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour

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have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional

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voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of

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those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a

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particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous

:06:02.:06:05.

opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the

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Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is

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one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of

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us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained

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that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in

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an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly

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among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be

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wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in

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truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are

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wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.

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The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support

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early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in

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Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has

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already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the

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possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.

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That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned

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should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what

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looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a

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massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.

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Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.

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Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy

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and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.

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The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa

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May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour

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Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't

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mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The

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more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have

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seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and

:08:18.:08:22.

stable leadership and then you do something like a massive

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unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even

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greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion

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polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the

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reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning

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because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting

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is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the

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media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question

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of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be

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broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high

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significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than

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many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the

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combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis

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said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much

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campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national

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campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls

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are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts

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about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come

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next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite

:09:39.:09:41.

understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to

:09:42.:09:48.

frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The

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electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to

:09:55.:10:00.

Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is

:10:01.:10:05.

framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both

:10:06.:10:11.

manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes

:10:12.:10:17.

down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more

:10:18.:10:20.

promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.

:10:21.:10:25.

Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit

:10:26.:10:29.

election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes

:10:30.:10:33.

down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how

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the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a

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couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who

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you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is

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already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government

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policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.

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The election campaign was, of course, put on hold

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following the terrorist attack in Manchester

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But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly

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surprising that security is now a primary concern.

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The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more

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Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts

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have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police

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numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It

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is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an

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imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I

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would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would

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hope they would have the resources to act as well.

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Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice

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Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and

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Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has

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already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has

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said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to

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much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the

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safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the

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Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police

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would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There

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are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut

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by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We

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are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra

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security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas

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identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is

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the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security

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services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more

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police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more

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resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are

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committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as

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well. You are not committing anything more. The government has

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not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --

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promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security

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on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at

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the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to

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keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and

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more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen

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to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out

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for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm

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talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme

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violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.

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Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving

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the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.

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We need to listen to the intelligence community and the

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security service, to the army and the police, about what they think

:14:34.:14:37.

and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is

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clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is

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less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security

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services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn

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will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more

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powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole

:15:03.:15:05.

political career voting against measures designed to tackle

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home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on

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safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the

:15:15.:15:19.

security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against

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the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in

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2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new

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powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along

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with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against

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legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or

:15:47.:15:50.

actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we

:15:51.:15:54.

don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye

:15:55.:15:59.

to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for

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terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made

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clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the

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security services, what he said about the international situation

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has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and

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her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President

:16:20.:16:20.

Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and

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security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at

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some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in

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2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy

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2000, it gave the Secretary of State Corbyn still think that is a bad

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idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm

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interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to

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be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in

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favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on

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suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex

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situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it

:17:20.:17:24.

was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation

:17:25.:17:27.

through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly

:17:28.:17:35.

there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,

:17:36.:17:38.

Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other

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Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this

:17:44.:17:47.

week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We

:17:48.:17:51.

have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,

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but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is

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there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been

:18:02.:18:14.

solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but

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your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they

:18:17.:18:19.

need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will

:18:20.:18:21.

want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in

:18:22.:18:30.

2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At

:18:31.:18:40.

the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the

:18:41.:18:44.

one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What

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he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism

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and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really

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and murder lies with the murder, and me is that the Prime Minister

:18:57.:19:01.

and murder lies with the murder, and the other day that in Jeremy

:19:02.:19:04.

Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with

:19:05.:19:18.

him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but

:19:19.:19:22.

what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat

:19:23.:19:26.

down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he

:19:27.:19:30.

didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think

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that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These

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issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together

:19:38.:19:39.

on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have

:19:40.:19:44.

promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify

:19:45.:19:46.

extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,

:19:47.:19:49.

and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,

:19:50.:19:51.

the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants

:19:52.:19:53.

for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them

:19:54.:19:55.

of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:19:56.:20:09.

Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in

:20:10.:20:13.

their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do

:20:14.:20:18.

to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans

:20:19.:20:22.

have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but

:20:23.:20:27.

there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.

:20:28.:20:33.

Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did

:20:34.:20:36.

say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do

:20:37.:20:41.

internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and

:20:42.:20:45.

international response. I think there are a range of issues. We

:20:46.:20:51.

could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words

:20:52.:20:56.

are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made

:20:57.:21:00.

these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do

:21:01.:21:06.

the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to

:21:07.:21:10.

social media companies take down this material? We have an act that

:21:11.:21:15.

was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one

:21:16.:21:20.

of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We

:21:21.:21:27.

have right now officials from my department over in the United States

:21:28.:21:30.

with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that

:21:31.:21:35.

they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have

:21:36.:21:41.

the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that

:21:42.:21:48.

maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies

:21:49.:21:51.

devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see

:21:52.:21:55.

them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a

:21:56.:22:00.

few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted

:22:01.:22:05.

a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve

:22:06.:22:11.

it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime

:22:12.:22:14.

Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but

:22:15.:22:18.

to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People

:22:19.:22:22.

will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is

:22:23.:22:25.

unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,

:22:26.:22:31.

which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote

:22:32.:22:37.

you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the

:22:38.:22:41.

picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was

:22:42.:22:46.

killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be

:22:47.:22:51.

demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the

:22:52.:22:55.

context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces

:22:56.:23:02.

we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been

:23:03.:23:06.

extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way

:23:07.:23:09.

these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were

:23:10.:23:15.

watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to

:23:16.:23:19.

look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto

:23:20.:23:27.

YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I

:23:28.:23:36.

understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting

:23:37.:23:39.

media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...

:23:40.:23:46.

You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young

:23:47.:23:50.

people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I

:23:51.:23:57.

invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on

:23:58.:24:01.

Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos

:24:02.:24:06.

or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as

:24:07.:24:10.

long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to

:24:11.:24:14.

be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying

:24:15.:24:19.

for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance

:24:20.:24:25.

that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people

:24:26.:24:30.

don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians

:24:31.:24:34.

and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be

:24:35.:24:38.

done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It

:24:39.:24:43.

is more about examining how much progress you can make. The

:24:44.:24:48.

Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers

:24:49.:24:53.

in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being

:24:54.:25:03.

monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.

:25:04.:25:09.

Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it

:25:10.:25:12.

is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is

:25:13.:25:15.

important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size

:25:16.:25:24.

of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms

:25:25.:25:27.

not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we

:25:28.:25:32.

have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our

:25:33.:25:39.

manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government

:25:40.:25:42.

spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7

:25:43.:25:52.

billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them

:25:53.:25:59.

on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,

:26:00.:26:04.

and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have

:26:05.:26:09.

quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are

:26:10.:26:14.

using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,

:26:15.:26:21.

but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.

:26:22.:26:29.

Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.

:26:30.:26:34.

Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they

:26:35.:26:43.

are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive

:26:44.:26:47.

issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and

:26:48.:26:50.

at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't

:26:51.:26:56.

come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5

:26:57.:27:02.

and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor

:27:03.:27:08.

them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.

:27:09.:27:16.

You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if

:27:17.:27:19.

they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with

:27:20.:27:25.

the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance

:27:26.:27:30.

between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there

:27:31.:27:33.

is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all

:27:34.:27:41.

sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from

:27:42.:27:48.

where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The

:27:49.:27:53.

control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because

:27:54.:27:57.

one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to

:27:58.:28:01.

satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is

:28:02.:28:06.

right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we

:28:07.:28:10.

won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no

:28:11.:28:15.

point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't

:28:16.:28:21.

give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James

:28:22.:28:33.

Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.

:28:34.:28:35.

The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old

:28:36.:28:43.

Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns

:28:44.:28:45.

about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.

:28:46.:28:47.

In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers

:28:48.:28:50.

investigating radicalisation in the UK.

:28:51.:28:51.

Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,

:28:52.:28:53.

and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO

:28:54.:28:56.

of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.

:28:57.:28:57.

We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem

:28:58.:29:00.

of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.

:29:01.:29:03.

Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,

:29:04.:29:09.

We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -

:29:10.:29:27.

Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify

:29:28.:29:30.

the sources of the problem, and polite society

:29:31.:29:32.

This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.

:29:33.:29:39.

Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,

:29:40.:29:43.

one for each year of life this country had given him.

:29:44.:29:50.

We need to think far more deeply about all this.

:29:51.:29:54.

Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem

:29:55.:29:57.

France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.

:29:58.:30:04.

Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?

:30:05.:30:08.

For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.

:30:09.:30:20.

Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,

:30:21.:30:24.

and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,

:30:25.:30:28.

even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.

:30:29.:30:33.

It is high time we became serious too.

:30:34.:30:44.

Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.

:30:45.:30:52.

We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?

:30:53.:30:58.

Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations

:30:59.:31:02.

who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even

:31:03.:31:06.

violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out

:31:07.:31:11.

of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself

:31:12.:31:14.

experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.

:31:15.:31:17.

These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,

:31:18.:31:26.

hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers

:31:27.:31:29.

Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic

:31:30.:31:33.

anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition

:31:34.:31:39.

I've seen politicians and charities partner

:31:40.:31:43.

with and support some of these voices and groups.

:31:44.:31:48.

Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far

:31:49.:31:54.

right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do

:31:55.:31:57.

But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies

:31:58.:32:05.

Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.

:32:06.:32:14.

We must counter those who seek to divide us.

:32:15.:32:24.

Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,

:32:25.:32:30.

strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,

:32:31.:32:36.

let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The

:32:37.:32:40.

young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at

:32:41.:32:45.

Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its

:32:46.:32:50.

leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of

:32:51.:32:53.

the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they

:32:54.:32:58.

are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was

:32:59.:33:04.

against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just

:33:05.:33:09.

one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?

:33:10.:33:16.

Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in

:33:17.:33:25.

the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting

:33:26.:33:33.

Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide

:33:34.:33:37.

bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to

:33:38.:33:41.

that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been

:33:42.:33:47.

politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,

:33:48.:33:49.

Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and

:33:50.:33:55.

countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist

:33:56.:34:01.

-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If

:34:02.:34:06.

Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look

:34:07.:34:10.

forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join

:34:11.:34:14.

Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist

:34:15.:34:17.

offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got

:34:18.:34:21.

worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your

:34:22.:34:24.

argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of

:34:25.:34:27.

Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?

:34:28.:34:32.

The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to

:34:33.:34:37.

absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me

:34:38.:34:43.

finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It

:34:44.:34:46.

has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth

:34:47.:34:50.

continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically

:34:51.:34:56.

correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to

:34:57.:35:00.

deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in

:35:01.:35:03.

Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a

:35:04.:35:08.

crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are

:35:09.:35:12.

competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are

:35:13.:35:15.

seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians

:35:16.:35:21.

are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims

:35:22.:35:26.

should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.

:35:27.:35:31.

There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to

:35:32.:35:37.

take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many

:35:38.:35:40.

reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on

:35:41.:35:45.

the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in

:35:46.:35:49.

this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A

:35:50.:35:55.

poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would

:35:56.:35:58.

not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to

:35:59.:36:06.

the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they

:36:07.:36:13.

could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.

:36:14.:36:17.

What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current

:36:18.:36:23.

understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university

:36:24.:36:26.

campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material

:36:27.:36:33.

that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of

:36:34.:36:35.

thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is

:36:36.:36:43.

freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is

:36:44.:36:47.

through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights

:36:48.:36:53.

to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a

:36:54.:36:59.

gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many

:37:00.:37:04.

people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That

:37:05.:37:10.

is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights

:37:11.:37:16.

point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not

:37:17.:37:19.

suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people

:37:20.:37:26.

don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be

:37:27.:37:32.

opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human

:37:33.:37:39.

rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution

:37:40.:37:42.

like Salford University you should be held responsible for not

:37:43.:37:45.

cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge

:37:46.:37:50.

extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually

:37:51.:37:56.

counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not

:37:57.:38:00.

about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most

:38:01.:38:05.

effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it

:38:06.:38:12.

doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking

:38:13.:38:17.

place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims

:38:18.:38:21.

in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are

:38:22.:38:26.

homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend

:38:27.:38:29.

among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea

:38:30.:38:34.

that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is

:38:35.:38:40.

also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are

:38:41.:38:43.

defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a

:38:44.:38:47.

better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to

:38:48.:38:50.

get real about that. Thank you very much.

:38:51.:38:51.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:52.:38:53.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:54.:38:56.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:57.:39:07.

In a few minutes our five minute guide to the manifestos

:39:08.:39:11.

But first the latest of our interviews with the main

:39:12.:39:18.

We've already heard from Plaid Cymru, Ukip and the LibDems.

:39:19.:39:22.

The Conservatives will be here next week.

:39:23.:39:24.

Its campaign co-ordinator Wayne David is with me now.

:39:25.:39:31.

Good morning. I guess it's almost a positive morning for Labour,

:39:32.:39:43.

considering, we've seen in some opinion polls a narrowing of the

:39:44.:39:47.

lead for the Conservatives. Is that a good news day or does more need to

:39:48.:39:53.

be done? Inevitably, there is a shadow of

:39:54.:39:57.

this election campaign after what happened in Manchester and our

:39:58.:39:58.

sympathy go out happened in Manchester and our

:39:59.:40:01.

sympathy go out to the victim and their families there.

:40:02.:40:05.

In terms of opinion polls shifts, yes positive movement for Labour.

:40:06.:40:09.

This election shows that there is everything to fight for still.

:40:10.:40:14.

Do you think it being a foregone conclusion for the Conservatives at

:40:15.:40:18.

the beginning of the campaign has helped to Labour and hindered the

:40:19.:40:22.

Tories? There's been a degree of arrogance

:40:23.:40:26.

as far as the Conservatives are concerned. They took people's votes

:40:27.:40:32.

for granted. They've had a very lacklustre campaign and Theresa May

:40:33.:40:35.

has not come across particularly well in contrast to the Labour

:40:36.:40:40.

campaign. Particularly in Wales, why has the

:40:41.:40:43.

being almost no mention of the party's leader in Wales?

:40:44.:40:48.

Jeremy Corbyn has been to Wales and has been well received in Cardiff.

:40:49.:40:53.

I am sure he will come to Wales again. It is important to recognise

:40:54.:40:58.

that the Labour Party in Wales is fighting this campaign as Welsh

:40:59.:41:00.

Labour. Carwyn Jones is the leader of Welsh

:41:01.:41:03.

Labour. But when MPs, when there are

:41:04.:41:10.

presumably some Labour MPs return to Westminster, they don't follow

:41:11.:41:14.

Carwyn Jones's lead, they follow the Labour whip in Westminster.

:41:15.:41:19.

But things are changing. So we'll Carwyn Jones sent the Labour MP's

:41:20.:41:26.

whip in Westminster? There is a new relationship between

:41:27.:41:31.

London and Welsh Labour. We'll see a new relationship which is

:41:32.:41:35.

manifesting itself in our manifesto. There are clear commitments which

:41:36.:41:39.

apply specifically to Wales. Our allegiances to Colin Jones,

:41:40.:41:43.

first and foremost. So whatever Carwyn Jones says in

:41:44.:41:47.

future goals, even if it contradicts what Jeremy Corbyn says?

:41:48.:41:52.

We have a strong partnership. Our responsibilities to make sure there

:41:53.:41:59.

are contradictions. So if there is conflict, who has the final say,

:42:00.:42:04.

surely it is Jeremy Corbyn? It depends what the issues are. As

:42:05.:42:08.

far as the election is concerned we are fighting an Welsh and devolved

:42:09.:42:10.

issues. We want devolution taken forward.

:42:11.:42:15.

When it comes to issues at the centre the party in London has a

:42:16.:42:18.

crucial relationship with Labour MPs, I think that's very clear. Not

:42:19.:42:25.

everyone in the media has grasped the complexity of the situation.

:42:26.:42:29.

It is a new ball game completely. I am pleased to say it is working well

:42:30.:42:33.

for Labour. When it comes to, for example,

:42:34.:42:36.

immigration what is the Labour Party position?

:42:37.:42:40.

We recognise that we are leaving the European Union, there is an end to

:42:41.:42:45.

free movement, that is fact. That is recognised by everyone.

:42:46.:42:50.

But what do you want to replace it? We want a system whereby immigration

:42:51.:42:55.

is not capped. We want it judged on what contribution migrants can make

:42:56.:43:01.

to the economy. We think it's important that we continue with

:43:02.:43:04.

immigration as far as the health service is concerned.

:43:05.:43:10.

But I'm talking about a plan for the future. Carwyn Jones, and he said

:43:11.:43:14.

this morning, there should be a system where people come here for

:43:15.:43:17.

three months to look for a job, then they had to leave.

:43:18.:43:23.

Is that party policy or not? It does not contradict anything.

:43:24.:43:27.

That is car win's... But if he is the leader in Wales, that is your

:43:28.:43:32.

policy. The immigration policy is determined

:43:33.:43:37.

at a UK level. So that's Jeremy Corbyn tromping Carwyn Jones Commies

:43:38.:43:42.

and it? It's not a case of trumping. It is not a contradiction at UK

:43:43.:43:47.

level. It takes it slightly further and

:43:48.:43:50.

refined it. It's not a contradiction. But it's

:43:51.:43:54.

meaningless, because Carwyn Jones can say what he likes about

:43:55.:43:58.

immigration, no one has to listen. It is not meaningless. It is an

:43:59.:44:03.

outline of what we want to achieve. Carwyn Jones expressed a specific

:44:04.:44:07.

point of view, which I'm sure will carry an enormous amount of weight

:44:08.:44:11.

if Labour winds the election. Why are there no specifics on your

:44:12.:44:16.

manifesto? Ours is longer than any manifesto

:44:17.:44:21.

we've ever produced. You cannot imagine the fine detail of every

:44:22.:44:26.

single policy included in the manifesto. We want a clear direction

:44:27.:44:30.

of travel. The direction of travel as clear as far as immigration. An

:44:31.:44:35.

end to free movement, that is coming. We want to judge immigration

:44:36.:44:40.

on the basis of what contribution migrants can make to our economy.

:44:41.:44:45.

But we've seen on tax and spending, we've seen a bit of detail from the

:44:46.:44:52.

party there. Unfortunately, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, very

:44:53.:44:55.

well regarded economic forecasting body, says it would mean higher

:44:56.:44:59.

taxes more spending than we've ever seen during peace time in this

:45:00.:45:01.

country. Is that what you're going for? The

:45:02.:45:07.

Labour Party has spelt out its commitments very clearly. Wales will

:45:08.:45:13.

benefit enormously from that. What is important, I think, is

:45:14.:45:17.

recognising that those who are wealthy will be asked to pay a bit

:45:18.:45:22.

more. A great mass of people will not see an increase in their

:45:23.:45:25.

taxation. That's important to emphasise. That is not contradicted

:45:26.:45:31.

by any economist, anyway. No, no, but fact remains that the

:45:32.:45:35.

tax levels would be set at record levels in peace time since 1945 at

:45:36.:45:39.

the highest level. Are you comfortable without? I would

:45:40.:45:45.

put emphasis on the point I just made. We aren't talking about an

:45:46.:45:49.

increase in taxation for all people. We are talking about an increase in

:45:50.:45:54.

taxation for the top 5%. What we've seen over the last five years is a

:45:55.:45:58.

discrepancy in our society between the very rich and varied pool are

:45:59.:46:01.

getting ever greater. We want that narrowed. We want a

:46:02.:46:06.

fairer society where everybody has equal opportunity and everybody is

:46:07.:46:10.

able to contribute and fulfil their aspirations.

:46:11.:46:13.

But what the ISS says is that you are pretending everything can be

:46:14.:46:23.

paid for by somebody else. Their tax rates will not raise anything like

:46:24.:46:25.

the ?48.6 billion you are claiming. Are you being honest with voters?

:46:26.:46:30.

I believe we are. The predictions are based upon greater measures of

:46:31.:46:37.

tax avoidance, people seeking to take money abroad, and they won't be

:46:38.:46:41.

paying the contributions we expect them to pay. Part of our packages to

:46:42.:46:46.

make certain that there are measures in place to prevent tax avoidance,

:46:47.:46:51.

to prevent people taking money abroad. International controls which

:46:52.:46:55.

work for the partners in Europe and across the world to make sure there

:46:56.:46:58.

is that social control of capital which we need to see.

:46:59.:47:03.

How happy have you been with Jeremy Corbyn's performance since the

:47:04.:47:16.

campaign was launched? I think he's performed very well.

:47:17.:47:18.

The important thing is that he is being himself. That is in sharp

:47:19.:47:21.

contradiction to the Prime Minister who is being evasive and duplicitous

:47:22.:47:23.

at times. Even if people don't like Jeremy Corbyn, he's an honest,

:47:24.:47:26.

decent man. Have you changed your mind on him? A

:47:27.:47:31.

year ago you were saying you don't think he'd have relevant policies or

:47:32.:47:35.

could provide strong leadership, were you wrong AMs I think it's

:47:36.:47:41.

important to recognise that I, and many others, had reservations about

:47:42.:47:45.

Jeremy Corbyn. That hasn't changed, but we all

:47:46.:47:49.

recognise that when you compare Jeremy Corbyn to Theresa May, that

:47:50.:47:53.

tries people are faced with, there's no doubt in my mind that Jeremy

:47:54.:47:57.

Corbyn would be a far better Prime Minister.

:47:58.:48:00.

That's faint praise if the best you can say about your own party leader

:48:01.:48:04.

is that he's better than Theresa May, the leader of the

:48:05.:48:07.

Conservatives. Politics is about choice. And I

:48:08.:48:11.

think Jeremy has come across as a man of principle, a man of decency

:48:12.:48:16.

and a man of vision. I am more than happy to support him on that basis.

:48:17.:48:19.

Now we're all in favour, I hope, of creating a stronger economy,

:48:20.:48:23.

a more just society and a better world for our children.

:48:24.:48:25.

And surprise surprise, so are the parties

:48:26.:48:27.

But beyond the promises and pleasantries, what is there

:48:28.:48:31.

Our reporter Carl Roberts loves going to bed with a good book,

:48:32.:48:34.

Well, the political parties' Welsh manifestos have been launched.

:48:35.:48:56.

You're there you are, essential bedtime reading if you're

:48:57.:49:00.

But you might not want to read them all.

:49:01.:49:05.

So we've picked out the main pledges for you.

:49:06.:49:08.

Plaid Cymru was the first party to launch its manifesto,

:49:09.:49:15.

enticingly entitled Action Plan 2017.

:49:16.:49:19.

We've got the record, we've got the team.

:49:20.:49:23.

And with today's manifesto, we've got the vision.

:49:24.:49:27.

Today, we rally behind something which is much

:49:28.:49:30.

What we have today is an action plan.

:49:31.:49:37.

The Prime Minister, Theresa May, went to Gresford, near Wrexham,

:49:38.:49:49.

The Prime Minister, Theresa May, went to Gresford, near Wrexham,

:49:50.:49:56.

to launch the Welsh Conservative manifesto, while the Secretary

:49:57.:49:58.

of State for Wales, the keen marathon runner,

:49:59.:50:00.

gave the BBC's Laura Kunesberg, the runaround.

:50:01.:50:08.

The Welsh Conservative manifesto I launched today

:50:09.:50:10.

is a plan to make the most of the opportunities to gather.

:50:11.:50:14.

It is a plan to make Wales, and our union, stronger.

:50:15.:50:20.

But this manifesto sets out a vision of Britain around

:50:21.:50:23.

The Welsh Conservative manifesto, Forward Together, pledges:

:50:24.:50:42.

One man and his dog turned up for the Labour manifesto launched

:50:43.:50:50.

it's called Standing Up For Wales, the First Minister, Carwyn Jones,

:50:51.:50:54.

Our Welsh manifesto is an ambitious, comprehensive plan for

:50:55.:50:59.

what Welsh Labour can do together in the Assembly.

:51:00.:51:02.

Unlike the Tories, we stand ready to deliver on the big projects that

:51:03.:51:10.

Ukip Wales's manifesto is called Wales Into The World.

:51:11.:51:27.

So it's apt that it was launched in the Norwegian Church in Cardiff Bay.

:51:28.:51:30.

The launch of the Ukip manifesto nationally

:51:31.:51:34.

is going on simultaneously with this launch here in Cardiff.

:51:35.:51:39.

And our manifesto for Wales fits into a wider matrix

:51:40.:51:46.

Changing Wales's Future is the Welsh Liberal Democrat's manifesto,

:51:47.:52:04.

launched in the pharmaceutical factory in Hay on Wye.

:52:05.:52:08.

fully aware of what they wanted when they voted on June 23.

:52:09.:52:28.

The negotiations, of course, are in doubt.

:52:29.:52:31.

We don't know what those terms are going to be.

:52:32.:52:33.

We don't know what the impact of coming out of the single

:52:34.:52:36.

The impact on our family farms, the manufacturing sector,

:52:37.:52:39.

The main pledges, from the political parties in Wales.

:52:40.:52:45.

They've made their beds, and after all that reading,

:52:46.:52:48.

I'm tired, and I need a little snooze.

:52:49.:52:57.

So, with less than a fortnight to go, where are we going

:52:58.:53:00.

Dylan Jones-Evans is Professor of Entrepreneurship

:53:01.:53:03.

at the University of South Wales and a former Conservative candidate.

:53:04.:53:06.

Bethan Darwin is a lawyer, author and founder of the Superwoman

:53:07.:53:09.

Thank you both very much for coming in for a quick chat. It's been a

:53:10.:53:23.

difficult week for so many reasons. I guess for the political parties,

:53:24.:53:28.

moving on from such terrible events and trying to resume the campaign

:53:29.:53:34.

has been difficult. How do you think they've coped with that?

:53:35.:53:40.

I think they've done the best they could in the circumstances. It's

:53:41.:53:43.

difficult to move quickly away from something so horrendous.

:53:44.:53:48.

And a van to focus on electioneering. I think they've done

:53:49.:53:53.

the best they could in the circumstances to look forward to

:53:54.:53:58.

June eight. Some people have said it's too long, others said it should

:53:59.:54:00.

have been longer. I think it about right. In a

:54:01.:54:06.

previous life, you would a candidate, is it's difficult? On the

:54:07.:54:12.

one hand you must be keen to get out there, but on the other you have two

:54:13.:54:18.

be sensitive to what is a difficult set of circumstances?

:54:19.:54:23.

It's been a short campaign already. What you will see over the next ten

:54:24.:54:29.

or 12 days is a concertina on what should have been on the campaign

:54:30.:54:33.

trail in the previous week into this week. That will change the dynamic

:54:34.:54:39.

of the election. Any political party will have a plan leading up to

:54:40.:54:42.

election day and they will ratchet up. Whatever focus they want to have

:54:43.:54:49.

on the opposition, that will be far more intense snow over the next few

:54:50.:54:54.

days. As it would have been if we didn't have the atrocity in

:54:55.:54:57.

Manchester. We've had calls from ITV Wales and

:54:58.:55:03.

Cardiff University over the past few weeks, first of all saying that the

:55:04.:55:06.

Conservatives were miles ahead in Wales and would win a majority of

:55:07.:55:13.

seats. And then we had another one on Monday which said, no, Labour and

:55:14.:55:17.

the lead again. Normal service resumes. How would the campaigns be

:55:18.:55:22.

looking at those polls? Most of the campaigners would

:55:23.:55:26.

continue as there are not respond to these polls. In the end, there's

:55:27.:55:31.

only one poll that counts and that's the one on the day it sounds. Most

:55:32.:55:36.

of the candidates will have a particular plan, and will continue

:55:37.:55:41.

knocking doors as they will. These are polls, and as we've seen in the

:55:42.:55:50.

last three elections, the polls have been wildly out. One can't say if

:55:51.:55:53.

the polls will save Labour or the Conservatives. I guarantee they will

:55:54.:55:58.

be another postmortem today after an well-regarded right or wrong.

:55:59.:56:03.

We were talking only about the campaign from Labour in Wales. Have

:56:04.:56:08.

you been surprised that they've concentrated so much an Carwyn

:56:09.:56:13.

Jones? Is there a danger that could be confusing considering that Carwyn

:56:14.:56:15.

Jones isn't standing in the selection?

:56:16.:56:20.

I think they're trying to distance themselves from Jeremy Corbyn. They

:56:21.:56:27.

are trying to show that they are in this 2-party contest, Jeremy Corbyn

:56:28.:56:32.

versus Theresa May. Welsh Labour want to distance themselves a little

:56:33.:56:35.

bit from Corbyn and push Welsh Labour versus national labour.

:56:36.:56:41.

Do you think people buying that? Do you think, or when David was saying

:56:42.:56:47.

that there is devolution and we have to change the relationship, do you

:56:48.:56:52.

think people go, yeah, fair enough, or do they think they just don't

:56:53.:56:57.

fancy having Corbyn plastered all over the place?

:56:58.:57:03.

I think they do buy it. Because we have the National Assembly and Plaid

:57:04.:57:07.

Cymru performing so well. Leanne Wood continues to perform well in

:57:08.:57:14.

every public outing she has, I think that people are looking at it from a

:57:15.:57:21.

Welsh perspective far more. They are looking at Welsh Labour and Plaid

:57:22.:57:25.

Cymru, that is the chance we are meeting in this election. If you are

:57:26.:57:29.

left wing and believe that you've got a bigger table, you should share

:57:30.:57:34.

it with others, you are looking at Labour or Plaid Cymru. People will

:57:35.:57:39.

have to make that choice based on a Welsh perspective. I think it does

:57:40.:57:43.

make a difference and people understand that difference. But

:57:44.:57:46.

Welsh Labour is part of national labour.

:57:47.:57:50.

But we know that in Wales, more so than Scotland and Northern Ireland

:57:51.:57:57.

people get their news from London. The Fleet Street newspapers. Has

:57:58.:58:02.

that been interesting, that even from the polls we've seen today,

:58:03.:58:06.

they are all showing that the polls suggest a narrowing of the lead for

:58:07.:58:10.

the Conservatives. But we are still talking even with

:58:11.:58:16.

the most pessimistic Paul, a 50 seat majority. Why was this election

:58:17.:58:21.

called? Everybody in the country is generally sick of elections over the

:58:22.:58:25.

last few years, and referenda, the whole point about this was giving

:58:26.:58:29.

the Prime Minister and the Conservative Party a stronger

:58:30.:58:32.

mandate to drive through Brexit. We haven't heard almost nothing on

:58:33.:58:39.

Brexit over the last two weeks. And, of course, when you talk about other

:58:40.:58:44.

policies, if we don't get that particular negotiation right, then

:58:45.:58:48.

we can't even start talking about social care, economic policy... We

:58:49.:58:52.

need to get those negotiations right and we forgotten that is what this

:58:53.:58:56.

was election was about. I think that will happen. Are you

:58:57.:59:00.

surprised there's been so little talk about Brexit? What is the very

:59:01.:59:05.

nature of discussions but they haven't happen yet does that mean

:59:06.:59:09.

it's inevitable that you can't give too many details?

:59:10.:59:12.

I think the point was the Prime Minister has been trying to say who

:59:13.:59:16.

is the best person. That's been her line. I think that message has been

:59:17.:59:24.

lost. You've seen in the papers today, allegations of infighting

:59:25.:59:29.

amongst close advisers, that's what's different. When the last

:59:30.:59:35.

campaign was run for David Cameron they had one message and drove it

:59:36.:59:39.

through. They surprised everyone by winning that significant majority

:59:40.:59:42.

considering the circumstances. That's got to change again if the

:59:43.:59:46.

Conservatives were to get that lead in the polls that they need. If

:59:47.:59:51.

Theresa May ends up with the same majority as before people will say

:59:52.:59:55.

what was the point of all this? Are we seeing a squeezing of smaller

:59:56.:00:00.

parties? You mentioned Plaid Cymru there, they aren't Ukip and the

:00:01.:00:05.

Liberal Democrats, are they being squeezed out?

:00:06.:00:11.

Yes. Completely. Not just squeezed out by campaigning, but by their

:00:12.:00:16.

election results, with the Lib Dems having just nine MPs and 1am.

:00:17.:00:21.

They've lost their place in the discussion. And Ukip, I think

:00:22.:00:27.

everybody feels like they've done it now. They've achieved Brexit, why

:00:28.:00:32.

are you still hear? Those roadside in this world for other parties to

:00:33.:00:35.

pick up. I guess the interesting thing in the

:00:36.:00:42.

Welsh vote is with those second... Those former Ukip routes could go? I

:00:43.:00:47.

know a lot of them are going to the Conservatives. But in the valleys

:00:48.:00:50.

where I am from they could go back to Labour. The ones that went to

:00:51.:00:56.

Ukip were traditional Labour voters. They could go to Labour again, or

:00:57.:01:05.

they could go to Plaid Cymru. The great unknown. It's a really

:01:06.:01:11.

interesting time. It is a new and unpredictable world but June it will

:01:12.:01:14.

reveal. So neither of you will give me a

:01:15.:01:17.

prediction? For Wales or for the UK? It's

:01:18.:01:23.

difficult. You've seen the surge. I think everybody said at the

:01:24.:01:27.

beginning that this campaign would be the turnout election. It's

:01:28.:01:32.

whether people are tired of elections, and some people in the

:01:33.:01:35.

Labour Party might think there is no point voting because we will lose.

:01:36.:01:42.

Others might be strengthened by the polls and say because filters, Ukip

:01:43.:01:46.

voters likely there is no point, we got what we want. What we back the

:01:47.:01:49.

part we want to back. Thank you for your lack of

:01:50.:01:51.

Thank you for your lack of productions!

:01:52.:01:53.

Join us next week as the election gallops into its final furlong.

:01:54.:01:57.

You can follow all the latest on twitter, we're @walespolitics

:01:58.:01:59.

but for now that's all from me time to go back to Jo.

:02:00.:02:01.

re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.

:02:02.:02:03.

Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election

:02:04.:02:18.

campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.

:02:19.:02:25.

Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is

:02:26.:02:29.

that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who

:02:30.:02:35.

do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only

:02:36.:02:39.

be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters

:02:40.:02:44.

this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about

:02:45.:02:50.

Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,

:02:51.:02:56.

is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the

:02:57.:03:00.

tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech

:03:01.:03:05.

last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin

:03:06.:03:10.

analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I

:03:11.:03:15.

think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack

:03:16.:03:24.

just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister

:03:25.:03:26.

has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,

:03:27.:03:32.

it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic

:03:33.:03:40.

attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You

:03:41.:03:47.

raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader

:03:48.:03:51.

argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two

:03:52.:03:54.

courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation

:03:55.:04:00.

about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.

:04:01.:04:06.

You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign

:04:07.:04:13.

by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by

:04:14.:04:17.

politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a

:04:18.:04:22.

divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue

:04:23.:04:29.

that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply

:04:30.:04:34.

unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me

:04:35.:04:40.

does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic

:04:41.:04:47.

event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue

:04:48.:04:54.

that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political

:04:55.:05:00.

battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a

:05:01.:05:06.

tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree

:05:07.:05:13.

or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a

:05:14.:05:17.

time to review the level of argument? This is a political

:05:18.:05:22.

debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and

:05:23.:05:25.

about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We

:05:26.:05:32.

mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when

:05:33.:05:39.

we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a

:05:40.:05:43.

lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do

:05:44.:05:48.

you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that

:05:49.:05:53.

suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,

:05:54.:05:57.

which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.

:05:58.:06:01.

Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to

:06:02.:06:06.

grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power

:06:07.:06:14.

Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And

:06:15.:06:19.

not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another

:06:20.:06:24.

example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David

:06:25.:06:29.

Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now

:06:30.:06:33.

heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I

:06:34.:06:40.

personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the

:06:41.:06:45.

major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of

:06:46.:06:49.

terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate

:06:50.:06:53.

terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be

:06:54.:06:57.

supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an

:06:58.:07:02.

election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the

:07:03.:07:06.

Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a

:07:07.:07:09.

great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that

:07:10.:07:16.

will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole

:07:17.:07:21.

point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not

:07:22.:07:25.

quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less

:07:26.:07:29.

impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just

:07:30.:07:34.

repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They

:07:35.:07:38.

like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we

:07:39.:07:42.

see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting

:07:43.:07:46.

to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are

:07:47.:07:51.

asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will

:07:52.:07:58.

that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in

:07:59.:08:07.

terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why

:08:08.:08:11.

she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will

:08:12.:08:19.

absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is

:08:20.:08:23.

a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65

:08:24.:08:29.

million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.

:08:30.:08:36.

It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you

:08:37.:08:39.

think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they

:08:40.:08:45.

will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls

:08:46.:08:50.

and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to

:08:51.:08:56.

get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on

:08:57.:09:01.

one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume

:09:02.:09:05.

that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable

:09:06.:09:09.

campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.

:09:10.:09:13.

On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.

:09:14.:09:20.

Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the

:09:21.:09:25.

Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have

:09:26.:09:30.

had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.

:09:31.:09:34.

Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home

:09:35.:09:39.

Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home

:09:40.:09:43.

office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government

:09:44.:09:47.

has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in

:09:48.:09:52.

additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in

:09:53.:09:55.

the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You

:09:56.:10:00.

voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on

:10:01.:10:05.

that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.

:10:06.:10:10.

We are making good progress with the companies who put in place

:10:11.:10:13.

encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.

:10:14.:10:20.

I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same

:10:21.:10:24.

hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The

:10:25.:10:29.

hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,

:10:30.:10:35.

you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the

:10:36.:10:42.

views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my

:10:43.:10:45.

hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of

:10:46.:10:52.

how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides

:10:53.:10:55.

talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election

:10:56.:11:01.

debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it

:11:02.:11:07.

and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm

:11:08.:11:10.

glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane

:11:11.:11:15.

Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage

:11:16.:11:22.

votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that

:11:23.:11:27.

legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they

:11:28.:11:32.

are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I

:11:33.:11:44.

did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.

:11:45.:11:48.

That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it

:11:49.:12:01.

seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault

:12:02.:12:06.

of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which

:12:07.:12:10.

the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would

:12:11.:12:13.

imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my

:12:14.:12:18.

judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would

:12:19.:12:22.

be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and

:12:23.:12:29.

performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the

:12:30.:12:36.

economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I

:12:37.:12:44.

don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd

:12:45.:12:47.

is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be

:12:48.:12:52.

debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the

:12:53.:12:56.

electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like

:12:57.:13:01.

to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking

:13:02.:13:04.

forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the

:13:05.:13:11.

week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our

:13:12.:13:17.

guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil

:13:18.:13:22.

will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.

:13:23.:13:29.

That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a

:13:30.:13:34.

very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.

:13:35.:13:40.

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