29/10/2017 Sunday Politics Wales

Morning, everyone.

I'm Sarah Smith, and welcome

to The Sunday Politics,

where we always bring you everything

you need to know to understand

what's going on in politics.

Coming up on today's programme...

The Government says

the international trade minister

Mark Garnier will be investigated

following newspaper allegations

of inappropriate behaviour

towards a female staff member.

We'll have the latest.

We'll have the latest.

The Prime Minister says she can

agree a deal with the EU and plenty

of time for Parliament to vote on it

before we leave in 2018. Well

Parliament play ball? New evidence

cast out on the

Later in the programme:

International Trade Secretary Liam

Fox tells me how Wales should trade

after Brexit, and should unused

land in Wales be taxed

if builders don't develop it?

land in Wales be taxed

on from the abortion act white MPs

are lobbying the Home Secretary to

stop the alleged harassment of women

attending abortion clinics.

All that coming up in the programme.

And with me today to help make sense

of all the big stories,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

Steve Richards and Anne McElvoy.

Some breaking news this morning.

The Government has announced

that it will investigate

whether the International Trade

Minister Mark Garnier broke

the Ministerial Code

following allegations

of inappropriate behaviour.

of inappropriate behaviour.

It comes after reports in the Mail

on Sunday which has spoken to one

of Mr Garnier's former employees.

News of the investigation

was announced by the Health

Secretary Jeremy Hunt

on the Andrew Marr show earlier.

The stories, if they are true,

are totally unacceptable

and the Cabinet Office will be

conducting an investigation

as to whether there has been

a breach of the ministerial code

in this particular case.

But as you know the

facts are disputed.

This is something that covers

behaviour by MPs of all parties

and that is why the other thing

that is going to happen

is that today Theresa May

is going to write to John Bercow,

the Speaker of the House of Commons,

to ask for his advice as to how

we change that culture.

we change that culture.

That was Jeremy Hunt a little

earlier. I want to turn to the panel

to make sense of this news. This is

the government taking these

allegations quite seriously.

What

has changed in this story is they

used to be a bit of delay while

people work out what they should say

about it, how seriously to take it.

As you see now a senior cabinet

member out there, Jeremy Hunt, with

an instant response. He does have

the worry of whether the facts are

disputed, but what they want to be

seen doing is to do something very

quickly. In the past they would say

it was all part of the rough and

tumble of Westminster.

Mark Garnier

does not deny these stories, which

is that he asked an employee to buy

sex toys, but he said it was just

high jinks and it was taken out of

context. Is this the sort of thing

that a few years ago in a different

environment would be investigated?

Not necessarily quite the frenzy

that it is nowadays. The combination

of social media, all the Sunday

political programmes were ministers

have to go on armed with a response

means that you get these we have to

be seen to be doing something. That

means there is this Cabinet Office

investigation. You pointed out to us

before the programme that he was not

a minister before this happened. It

does not matter whether he says yes,

know I did this or did not,

something has to be seen to be done.

Clearly ministers today are being

armed with that bit of information

and that Theresa May will ask John

Bercow the speaker to look into the

whole culture of Parliament in this

context. That is the response to

this kind of frenzy.

If we do live

in an environment where something

has to be seen to be done, does that

always mean the right thing gets

done?

Absolutely not. We are in

witch hunt territory. All of us work

in the Commons over many years and

anyone would think it was a scene

out of Benny Hill or a carry on

film. Sadly it is not that much fun

and it is rather dull and dreary.

Yes, there are sex pests, yes, there

is sexual harassment, but the idea

this is going on on a huge scale is

nonsense.

Doesn't matter whether it

is a huge scale or not? Or just a

few instances?

Any workplace where

you have the mixing of work and

social so intertwined and you throw

a huge amount of alcohol and late

night and people living away from

home you will have this happen.

That

does not make it OK.

It makes sexual

harassment not OK as it is not

anywhere. This happens to men as

well and if they have an issue into

it there are employment tribunal 's

and they can contact lawyers. I do

not think this should be a matter of

the speaker, it should be someone

completely independent of any party.

People think MPs are employees of

the party or the Commons, they are

not.

Because they are self-employed

to whom do you go if you are a

researcher?

That has to be

clarified. I agree you need a much

clearer line of reporting. It was a

bit like the situation when we came

into the media many years ago, the

Punic wars in my case! You were not

quite sure who to go to. If you work

worried that it might impede your

career, and you had to talk to

people who work next to you, that is

just one example, but in the Commons

people do not know who they should

go to. Where Theresa May might be

making a mistake, it is the same

mistake when it was decided to

investigate through Levinson the

culture of the media which was like

nailing jelly to a wall. Look at the

culture of anybody's job and the

environment they are in and there is

usually a lot wrong with it. When

you try and make it general, they

are not trying to blame individuals,

or it say they need a better line on

reporting of sexual harassment,

which I support, the Commons is a

funny place and it is a rough old

trade and you are never going to

iron out the human foibles of that.

Diane Abbott was talking about this

earlier.

When I first went into Parliament so

many of those men had been to all

boys boarding schools and had really

difficult attitudes towards women.

The world has moved on and

middle-aged women are less likely

than middle-aged men to believe that

young research are irresistibly

attracted to them. We have seen the

issues and we have seen one of our

colleagues been suspended for quite

unacceptable language.

That is a point, Jarrod O'Mara, a

Labour MP who has had the whip

suspended, this goes across all

parties.

The idea that there is a

left or right divide over this is

absurd. This is a cultural issue. In

the media and in a lot of other

institutions if this is going to

develop politically, the frenzy will

carry on for a bit and other names

will come out over the next few

days, not just the two we have

mentioned so far in politics. But it

also raises questions about how

candidates are selected for example.

There has been a huge pressure for

the centre to keep out of things. I

bet from now on there will be much

greater scrutiny of all candidates

and tweets will have to be looked at

and all the rest of it.

Selecting

candidates is interesting. Miriam

Gonzalez, Nick Clegg's wife, says

that during that election they knew

about Jarrod O'Mara and the Lib Dems

knew about it, so it is difficult to

suggest the Labour Party did not as

well.

There is very clear evidence

the Labour Party did know. But we

are in a situation of how perfect

and well-behaved does everyone have

to be? If you look at past American

presidents, JFK and Bill Clinton,

these men were sex pest

extraordinaire, with totally

inappropriate behaviour on a regular

basis. There are things you are not

allowed to say if you are feminists.

Young women are really attracted to

powerful men. I was busted for the

idea that there are young women in

the House of commons who are

throwing themselves at middle-aged,

potbellied, balding, older men. We

need to focus on the right things.

When it is unwanted, harassing,

inappropriate and criminal,

absolutely, you come down like a

tonne of bricks. It is not just

because there are more women in the

Commons, it is because there are

more men married to women like us.

We have to leave it there.

As attention turns in

Westminster to the hundreds

of amendments put down on the EU

Withdrawal Bill, David Davis has

caused a stir this week by saying

it's possible Parliament won't get

a vote on the Brexit deal

until after March 2019 -

when the clock runs out

and we leave the EU.

Let's take a look at how

the controversy played out.

And which point do you envisage

Parliament having a vote?

As soon as possible thereafter.

This Parliament?

As soon as possible

possible thereafter, yeah.

As soon as possible thereafter.

So, the vote in Parliament...

The other thing...

Could be after March 2019?

It could be, yeah, it could be.

The...

It depends when it concludes.

Mr Barnier, remember,

has said he'd like...

Sorry, the vote of our Parliament,

the UK Parliament, could be

after March 2019?

Yes, it could be.

Could be.

The thing to member...

Which would be...

Well, it can't come

before we have the deal.

You said that it is POSSIBLE that

Parliament night not vote

on the deal until AFTER

the end of March 2019.

I'm summarising correctly

what you said...?

Yeah, that's correct.

In the event we don't do

the deal until then, yeah.

Can the Prime Minister please

explain how it's possible

to have a meaningful vote

on something that's

already taken place?

As the honourable gentleman knows,

we're in negotiations

with the European Union, but I am

confident that the timetable under

the Lisbon Treaty does give time

until March 2019

for the negotiations to take place.

But I'm confident, because it is in

the interests of both sides,

it's not just this Parliament that

wants to have a vote on that deal,

but actually there will be

ratification by other parliaments,

that we will be able to achieve that

agreement and that negotiation

in time for this Parliament

to have a vote that we committed to.

We are working to reach

an agreement on the final deal

in good time before we leave

the European Union in March 2019.

Clearly, we cannot say

for certain at this stage

when this will be agreed.

But as Michel Barnier said,

he hopes to get a draft deal

agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim is well.

agreed by October 2018,

and that's our aim as well.

I'm joined now by the former

Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary

Benn, who is the chair

of the Commons Brexit Committee,

which David Davis was

giving evidence to.

Good morning.

When you think a

parliamentary vote should take place

in order for it to be meaningful?

It

has to be before we leave the

European Union. Michel Barnier said

at the start of the negotiations

that he wants to wrap them up by

October of next year, so we have

only got 12 months left, the clock

is ticking and there is a huge

amount of ground to cover.

You do

not think there is any point in

having the vote the week before we

leave because you could then not go

and re-negotiate?

That would not be

acceptable. We will not be given a

bit of paper and told to take it or

leave it. But the following day

Steve Baker, also a minister in the

department, told our committee that

the government now accepts that in

order to implement transitional

arrangements that it is seeking, it

will need separate legislation. I

put the question to him if you are

going to need separate legislation

to do that, why don't you have a

separate bill to implement the

withdrawal agreement rather than

seeking to use the powers the

government is proposing to take in

the EU withdrawal bill.

If we stick

to the timing, you have said you do

not think it is possible to

negotiate a trade deal in the next

12 months. You say the only people

who think that is possible British

ministers. If you do not believe we

can get a deal negotiated, how can

we get a vote on it in 12 months'

time?

If things go well, and there

is still a risk of no agreement

which would be disastrous for the

economy and the country, if

things go there will be a deal on

the divorce issues, there will be a

deal on the nature of the

transitional arrangement and the

government is to set out how it

thinks that will work, and then an

agreement between the UK and the 27

member states saying, we will now

negotiate a new trade and market

access arrangement, and new

association agreement between the

two parties, and that will be done

in the transition period. Parliament

will be voting in those

circumstances on a deal which leads

to the door being open.

But we would

be outside the EU at that point, so

how meaningful can vote be where you

take it or leave it if we have

already left the EU? Surely this has

to happen before March 2019 for it

to make a difference?

I do not think

it is possible to negotiate all of

the issues that will need to be

covered in the time available.

Then

it is not possible to have a

meaningful vote on it?

Parliament

will have to have a look at the deal

presented to it. It is likely to be

a mix agreement so the approval

process in the rest of Europe,

unlike the Article 50 agreement,

which will be a majority vote in the

European Parliament and in the

British Parliament, every single

Parliament will have a vote on it,

so it will be a more complex process

anyway, but I do not think that is

the time to get all of that sorted

between now and October next year.

Whether it is before or after we

have left the EU, the government

have said it is a take it or leave

it option and it is the Noel Edmonds

option, deal or no Deal, you say yes

or no to it. You cannot send them

back to re-negotiate.

If it is a separate piece of

legislation, when Parliament has a

chance to shape the nature of that

legislation.

But it can't change

what has been negotiated with the

EU?

Well, you could say to the

government, we're happy with this

but was not happy about that chukka

here's some fresh instructions, go

back in and...

It seems to me what

they want is the maximum access to

the single market for the lowest

possible tariffs, whilst able to

control migration. If they've got to

get the best deal that they can on

that, how on earth is the Labour

Party, saying we want a bit more,

owing to persuade the other 27?

We

certainly don't want the lowest

possible tariffs, we want no tariffs

are taught. My personal view is

that, has made a profound mistake in

deciding that it wants to leave the

customs union. If you want to help

deal with the very serious question

of the border between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland,

the way you do that is to stay in

the customs union and I hope, will

change its mind.

But the Labour

Party is simply saying in the House

of Commons, we want a better deal

than what, has been able to get?

It

depends how the negotiations unfold.

, has ended up on the transitional

arrangements in the place that Keir

Starmer set out on behalf of the

shadow cabinet in August, when he

said, we will need to stay in the

single market and the customs union

for the duration of the transition,

and I think that is the position,

has now reached. It has not been

helped by differences of view within

the Cabinet, and a lot of time has

passed and there's proved time left

and we have not even got on to the

negotiations. -- there's very little

time left.

On phase two, the labour

Party have set out six clear tests,

and two of them are crucial. You say

you want the exact same benefits we

currently have in the customs union

but you also want to be able to

ensure the fair migration to control

immigration, basically, which does

sound a bit like having your cake

and eating it. You say that you will

vote against any deal that doesn't

give you all of that, the exact same

benefits of the single market, and

allowing you to control migration.

But you say no deal would be

catastrophic if so it seems to me

you're unlikely to get the deal that

you could vote for but you don't

want to vote for no deal?

We

absolutely don't want a no deal.

Businesses have sent a letter to the

Prime Minister saying that a

transition is essential because the

possibility of a no deal and no

transitional would be very damaging

for the economy. We fought the

general election on a policy of

seeking to retain the benefits of

the single market and the customs

union. Keir Starmer said on behalf

of the shadow government that as far

as the longer term arrangements are

concerned, that should leave all

options on the table, because it is

the end that you're trying to

achieve and you then find the means

to support it. So we're setting out

very clearly those tests.

If you

were to vote down an agreement

because it did not meet your tests,

and there was time to send, back to

the EU to get a better deal, then

you would have significantly

weakened their negotiating hand

chukka that doesn't help them?

I

don't think, has deployed its

negotiating hand very strongly thus

far. Because we had a general

election which meant that we lost

time that we would have used for

negotiating. We still don't know

what kind of long-term trade and

market access deal, wants. The Prime

Minister says, I don't want a deal

like Canada and I don't want a deal

like the European Economic Area. But

we still don't know what kind of

deal they want. With about 12 months

to go, the other thing, needs to do

is to set out very clearly above all

for the benefit of the other 27

European countries, what kind of

deal it wants. When I travel to

Europe and talk to those involved in

the negotiations, you see other

leaders saying, we don't actually

know what Britain wants. With a year

to go it is about time we made that

clear.

One related question on the

European Union - you spoke in your

famous speech in Syria about the

international brigades in Spain, and

I wonder if your solidarity with

them leads you to think that the UK

Government should be recognising

Catalonia is an independent state?

No, I don't think so. It is a very

difficult and potentially dangerous

situation in Catalonia at the

moment. Direct rule from Madrid is

not a long-term solution. There

needs to be a negotiation, and

elections will give Catalonia the

chance to take that decision, but I

am not clear what the declaration of

independence actually means. Are

they going to be borders, is they're

going to be an army? There will have

to be some agreement. Catalonia has

already had a high degree of

autonomy. It may like some more, and

it seems to me if you look at the

experience here in the United

Kingdom, that is the way to go, not

a constitutional stand-off. And I

really hope nobody is charged with

rebellion, because actually that

would make matters worse.

Now, the Government has this

week reopened the public

consultation on plans for a third

runway at Heathrow.

While ministers are clear

the £18 billion project

is still the preferred option,

new data raises further questions

about the environmental

impact of expansion,

and offers an improved

economic case for a second

runway at Gatwick instead.

So, with opponents on all sides

of the Commons, does the Government

still have the votes to get

the plans off the ground?

Here's Elizabeth Glinka.

Here's Elizabeth Glinka.

The debate over the expansion

of Heathrow has been

going on for decades.

Plans for a third runway

were first introduced

by the Labour government in 2003.

Then, after spending millions

of pounds, finally, in 2015,

the airport commission recommended

that those plans go ahead,

and the government position

appeared to be fixed.

But, of course, since then,

we've had a general election.

And with opposition on both front

benches, the Parliamentary

arithmetic looks a little bit up

in the air.

A lot has changed since the airport

commission produced its report,

and that don't forget

was the bedrock for the Government's

decision, that's why the government

supposedly made the decision

that it made.

But most of the assumptions

made in that report have

been undermined since,

by data on passenger numbers,

on economic benefits, and more

than anything, on pollution.

There's demand from international

carriers to get into Heathrow.

More and more people want to fly.

And after the referendum,

connectivity post-Brexit

is going to be absolutely critical

to the UK economy, so if anything,

I think the case is stronger

for expansion at Heathrow.

A vote on expansion had been due

to take place this summer.

But with Westminster somewhat

distracted, that didn't happen.

Now, fresh data means

the Government has had to reopen

the public consultation.

the public consultation.

But it maintains the case

for Heathrow is as strong as ever,

delivering benefits of up

to £74 billion to the wider economy.

And in any case, the Government

says, action must be taken,

as all five of London's airports

will be completely

full by the mid-2030s.

Still, the new research does cast

an alternative expansion at Gatwick

in a more favourable economic light,

while showing Heathrow

is now less likely to meet

its environmental targets.

Campaigners like these in Hounslow

sense the wind is shifting.

We're feeling encouraged,

because we see all kinds

of weaknesses in the argument.

Certainly, quite a few MPs,

I think certainly Labour MPs,

are beginning to think perhaps it's

not such a great idea

to have a third runway.

Their MP is convinced colleagues

can now be persuaded

to see things their way.

The Labour Party quite

rightly set four key tests

for a third runway at Heathrow.

And in my view,

Heathrow is not able...

The Heathrow option is not able

to pass any of those.

So, I see a lot of colleagues

in the Labour Party around

the country beginning

to think twice.

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supportin this anti-Heathrow

And if you look at the cross-party

MPs supporting this anti-Heathrow

protest this week, you will see

some familiar faces.

You know my position -

as the constituency MP,

I'm totally opposed.

I think this is another indication

of just the difficulties

the Government have got off

of implementing this policy.

I don't think it's going to happen,

I just don't think

it's going to happen.

So, if some on the Labour

front bench are, shall

we say, not supportive,

what about the other side?

In a free vote, we could have had up

to 60 Conservative MPs

voting against expansion,

that's the number that is normally

used and I think it's right.

In the circumstances where it

requires an active rebellion,

the numbers would be fewer.

I can't tell you what that

number is, but I can tell

you that there are people right

the way through the party,

from the backbenches

to the heart of the government,

who will vote against

Heathrow expansion.

And yet the SNP, whose Commons

votes could prove vital,

are behind the Heathrow plan,

which promises more

connecting flights.

And other supporters are convinced

they have the numbers.

There is a majority of members

of Parliament that support Heathrow

expansion, and when that is put

to the test, whenever that will be,

I think that will be

clearly demonstrated.

Any vote on this issue

won't come until next summer.

For both sides, yet more time

to argue about weather

the plans should take off

or be permanently grounded.

Elizabeth Glinka there.

And I'm joined now by the former

Cabinet minister Theresa Villiers,

who oversaw aviation policy

as a transport minister

under David Cameron.

under David Cameron.

Thanks for coming in. You have made

your opposition to a third runway at

Heathrow consistently clear. , have

reopened this consultation but it is

still clearly their preferred

option?

It is but what I have always

asked is, why try to build a new

runway at Heathrow when you can

build one at Gatwick in half the

time, for half the cost and with a

tiny fraction of the environment

will cost average is that true,

though? Private finance is already

to go at Heathrow, because that's

where people want to do it and

that's where the private backers

want to put it. It would take much

longer to get the private finance

for Gatwick? Part of that private

finance is passengers of the future,

but also, the costs of the surface

transport needed to expand Heathrow

is phenomenal. I mean, TfL estimates

vary between £10 billion and £15

billion. And there's no suggestion

that those private backers are going

to meet those costs. So, this is a

hugely expensive project as well as

one which will create very

significant damage.

Heathrow is

ultimately where passengers and

airlines want to go to, isn't it?

Every slot is practically full.

Every time a new one comes up, it is

up immediately, it's a very popular

airport. Gatwick is not where they

want to go?

There are many airlines

and passengers who do want to fly

from Gatwick, and all the forecasts

indicate that a new runway there

would be full of planes very

rapidly. But I think the key thing

is that successive elements have

said, technology will deliver a way

to resolve the around noise and air

quality. I don't have any confidence

that science has demonstrated that

technology will deliver those

solutions to these very serious

environmental limbs which have

stopped Heathrow expansion for

decades.

Jim Fitzpatrick in the film

was mentioning that people think

there is a need for even more

collectivity in Britain post-Brexit.

We know that business has been

crying out for more routes, they

really think it hurts business

expansion that we don't get on with

this. More consultation is just

going to lead to more delay, isn't

it?

This is a hugely controversial

decision. There is a reason why

people have been talking about

expanding Heathrow for 50 years and

it is never happened, it's because

it's a bad idea. So, inevitably the

legal processes are very complex.

One of my anxieties about, pursuing

this option is that potentially it

means another lost decade for

airport expansion. Because the

problems with Heathrow expansion are

so serious, I believe that's one of

the reasons why I advocated, anyone

who wants a new runway in the

south-east should be backing Gatwick

is a much more deliverable option.

Let me move on to Brexit. We were

talking with Hilary Benn about a

meaningful vote being given to the

House of Commons chukka how

important do you think that is?

Of

course the Commons will vote on

this. The Commons is going to vote

on this many, many times. We have

also had a hugely important vote not

only in the referendum on the 23rd

of June but also on Article 50.

But

will that vote allow any changes to

it? Hilary Benn seemed to think that

the Commons would be able to shape

the deal with the vote. But actually

is it going to be, saying, take it

or leave it at all what we have

negotiated?

Our Prime Minister

negotiates on our behalf

internationally. It's

well-established precedent that

after an agreement is reached

overseas, then it is considered in

the House of Commons.

What if it was

voted down in the House of Commons?

Well, the legal effect of that would

be that we left the European Union

without any kind of deal, because

the key decision was on the voting

of Article 50 as an irreversible

decision.

Is it irreversible,

though? We understand, may have had

legal advice saying that Yukon

stopped the clock on Article 50.

Would it not be possible if the

Commons voted against to ask the

European Union for a little bit more

time to try and renegotiate?

There

is a debate about the reversibility

of Article 50. But the key point is

that we are all working for a good

deal for the United Kingdom and the

I'm concerned that some of the

amendments to the legislation are

not about the nature of the deal at

the end of the process, they're just

about frustrating the process. I

think that would be wrong. I think

we should respect the result of the

referendum.

Will it be by next

summer, so there is time for

Parliament and for other

parliaments?

I certainly hope that

we get that agreement between the

two sides, and the recent European

summit seemed to indicate a

willingness from the European side

to be constructive. But one point

where I think Hilary Benn has a

point, if we do secure agreement on

a transitional deal, that does

potentially give us more time to

work on the details of a trade

agreement. I hope we get as much as

possible in place before exit day.

But filling out some of that detail

is made easier if we can secure that

two-year transitional deal.

That is interesting because a lot of

Brexiteers what the deal to be done

by the inflammation period, it is

not a time for that.

I fully

recognise we need compromise, I am

keen to work with people across my

party in terms of spectrum of

opinion, and with other parties as

well to ensure we get the best

outcome.

Let me ask you briefly

before you go about the possible

culture of sexual harassment in the

House of commons and Theresa May

will write to the Speaker of the

House of Commons to make sure there

is a better way that people can

report sexual harassment in the

House of commons. Is that necessary?

A better procedure is needed. It is

sad it has taken this controversy to

push this forward. But there is a

problem with MPs who are individual

employers. If you work for an MP and

have a complaint against them,

essentially they are overseeing

their own complaints process. I

think a role for the House of

commons authorities in ensuring that

those complaints are properly dealt

with I think would be very helpful,

so I think the Prime Minister's

letter was a sensible move.

So you

think there is a culture of sexual

harassment in the House of commons?

I have not been subjected to it or

seen evidence of it, but obviously

there is anxiety and allegations

have made their way into the papers

and they should be treated

appropriately and properly

investigated.

Thank you for talking

to us.

Thank you for talking to us.

Next week the Lord Speaker's

committee publishes its final report

into reducing the size

of the House of Lords.

With over 800 members the upper

house is the second largest

legislative chamber in the world

after the National People's

Congress of China.

The report is expected to recommend

that new peerages should be

time-limited to 15 years and that

in the future political peerage

appointments will also be tied

to a party's election performance.

The government has been under

pressure to take action to cut

members of the unelected chamber,

where they are entitled

to claim an attendance

allowance of £300 a day.

And once again these expenses

have been in the news.

The Electoral Reform Society

discovered that 16 peers had claimed

around £400,000 without speaking

in any debates or submitting any

questions for an entire year.

One of the Lords to be

criticised was Digby Jones,

the crossbencher and former trade

minister, he hasn't spoken

in the Lords since April 2016

and has voted only seven times

during 2016 and 2017.

Yet he has claimed around

£15,000 in this period.

When asked what he does

in the House he said,

"I go in and I will invite for lunch

or meet with inward

investors into the country.

I fly the flag for Britain."

Well, we can speak now

to Lord Jones who joins us

from Stratford Upon Avon.

Thank you very much for talking to

us. You provide value for money in

the House of Lords do you think?

Definitely. I am, by the way, very

keen on reform. I want to see that

15 year tide. I would like to see a

time limit, an age limit of 75 or

80. I would like attendants

definitely define so the whole

public understood what people are

paying for and why. The £300, as a

crossbencher I get no support, and

nor do I want any, speech writing,

secretarial assistance, none of

that, and the £300 goes towards

that.

Whilst you are in there

because we will talk about the

reform of the Lords in general, but

in terms of you yourself, you say

you invite people in for lunch, is

it not possible for you to take part

in debates and votes and ask

questions at the same time?

Have you

ever listened to a debate in the

laws? Yes, many times.

Yes, many

times. You have to put your name

down in advance and you have to be

there for the whole debate.

You have

to be around when the vote is called

and you do not know when the book is

called, you have no idea when the

boat is going to be called.

This is

part of being a member of the House

of Lords and what it means. If you

are not prepared to wait or take

part in debates, why do you want to

be a member? It is possible to

resign from the House of Lords.

There are many things members of the

Lords do that does not relate to

parrot fashion following somebody

else, which I refuse to do, about

speaking to an empty chamber, or

indeed hanging on sometimes for

hours to vote. There are many other

things that you do. You quote me as

saying I will entertain at lunchtime

or show people around the House,

everything from schoolchildren to

inward investors. I will meet

ministers about big business issues

or educational issues, and at the

same time I will meet other members

of the Lords to get things moving.

None of that relates to going into

the House and getting on your hind

legs, although I do go in and sit

there and learn and listen to

others, which, if more people would

receive and not transmit, we might

get a better informed society. At

the same time many times I will go

after I have listened and I am

leaving and if I have not heard the

debate, I will not vote.

Voting is

an essential part of being part of a

legislative chamber. This is not

just an executive committee, it is a

legislature, surpassing that law is

essential, is it not?

Do you really

believe that an MP or a member of

the Lords who has not heard a moment

of the debate, who is then listening

to the Bell, walks in and does not

know which lobby, the whips tell

him, they have not heard the debate

and they do not know what they are

voting on and they go and do it?

That is your democracy? Voting seems

to be an essential part of this

chamber, and you have your ideas

about reforming the chamber. It

sounds as though you would reform

yourself out of it. You say people

who are not voting and who are not

taking part in debate should no

longer be members of the House.

I

did not say that. I said we ought to

redefine what attendance means and

then if you do not attend on the new

criteria, you do not have to come

ever again, we will give you your

wish. I agree attendance might mean

unless you speak, you are going.

Fair enough, if that is what is

agreed, yes. Sometimes I would speak

and sometimes I would not. If I did

not, then off I go. Similarly after

15 years, off you go. If you reach

75 or 80, off you go. Why do we have

92 members who are only there

because of daddy.

You are talking

about hereditary peers. You would

like to reduce the House to what

kind of number?

I would get it down

to 400.

You would get rid of half

the peers there at the moment? You

think you are active enough to

remain as one of the 400?

No, I said

that might well include me. Let's

get a set of criteria, let's push it

through, because the laws is losing

respect in the whole of the country

because there are too many and all

these things about what people pay

for. I bet most people think the

money you get is paid. It is not, it

is re-funding for all the things you

have to pay for yourself. But I

understand how respect has been lost

in society. Let's change it now.

Let's get it through and then, yes,

if you do not meet the criteria, you

have got to go and that includes me.

Lloyd Jones, thank you for talking

to us.

Lloyd Jones, thank

you for talking to us.

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be talking to the former

business minister and Conservative

MP Anna Soubry about the Brexit

negotiations and claims of sexual

harassment in Parliament.

Hello and welcome to

Sunday Politics Wales.

Coming up in a few minutes,

should builders be taxed if they buy

land but don't build on it,

and remember this man?

Lord Baker of Inset days and other

educational reforms tells us

what Wales' schools and colleges

could be doing better.

But first what will trade from Wales

look like after Brexit?

We rely more heavily on the EU

that the rest of the UK does,

and manufacturing and agriculture

could really suffer if tariffs

are imposed on UK goods.

The International Trade Secretary

Liam Fox was here on Friday speaking

to the dairy industry about how

things might look.

In a brief interview after that

meeting, I asked him

what message he'd given them.

what message he'd given them.

what message he'd given them.

We have been discussing the

opportunities for the United Kingdom

in terms of global exports. It is a

UK Department. I was very keen to

talk to groups here in Wales about

how we were offering help to all

parts of the UK. As a country, we

need to improve our trading

performance quite a bit. We are

actually exporting a smaller share

of our national income than most

other European countries. We need to

improve that and we need to improve

that whether or not we stayed in the

European Union. We were talking

about our global horizons. What are

the reasons why British companies

might not be exporting as much as

others do and how can the government

help remove some of those perceived

barriers?

When it comes to trade

with European Union, businesses in

Wales are more reliant on the EU

than other parts of the UK. How much

will that factor in your thinking?

We want to maintain access to

European markets, as we said, we

want a full and comprehensive

agreement with the European Union on

trade. I would like that to maintain

exactly the same sort of market

access that we have today.

That

seems unlikely.

The European Union

has not yet begun to discuss with us

what the trade arrangements will

look like. Many of us are frustrated

at the amount of time it is taking

to get that conversation on the way.

It is not just producers and

investors, it is also global

investors looking at Europe as a

whole and they want to know what

access Europe will get to the United

Kingdom as part of that agreement

but beyond that we also need as well

as maximising our access, we need to

maximise access to the market

outside the EU itself. 90% of global

growth in the next ten years will be

outside Europe.

As the UK leaves the

European Union, you don't think that

trade between Wales for example and

the EU should be any less than it is

now?

Yes, we want to see a fully

open Cobbler heads of agreement with

European Union because that is in

the interests of European consumers

as well. If you think about it, the

trade agreement we have with

European Union is different to most

agreements. In most trade

negotiations, we would be a distance

apart and trying to reduce it and

get to a new status quo. In the

European Union, we already have zero

tariffs. The only thing that can

happen is we stay the same or more

slightly apart. We don't want to

move apart.

The problem is you are

also aiming out to try and stop

being such a Rose partner with the

EU. Tariffs could come an issue.

I

don't think that is a problem.

European Union has 40 trade

agreements around the world that we

are a party to already. Yes, we want

to see greater trade liberalisation.

We want to see global trade growing

because it has been very slow in

recent years.

Just lastly, we have

heard recently that the UK

Government wants to involve the

devolved administrations when you

are looking at trade policy. What

exactly do you mean by that?

One of

the discussions we are having today

is how do we set out a consultation

process as we move to new trade

agreements that ensures that we get

a four input from all parts of the

United Kingdom, the nations and

regions, and all the different

sectors and all the different

stakeholders. And one of the

discussions we have been hanging

round the country is how do we set

that up and we want to get as wide a

conversation on that as possible

before we bring forward our

proposals.

Now should builders be

taxed if they buy land

but don't build on it?

They've told this programme a lack

of detail on a proposals

could discourage investment.

A "Vacant Land Tax" could be brought

in by the Welsh Government to tackle

so-called "land-banking",

where developers and house builders

buy land but don't then develop it.

Our own Bob the Builder lookalike

Carl Roberts has been

to a site to find out more.

to a site to find out more.

The finishing touches are being made

to the 55th and 56th and final home

on this new housing estate. These

new homes will contribute to the

7000 or so that are built every year

in Wales. That figure is rising. But

still falls way short of the

estimated 12,000 that are needed to

plug the gap between demand and

supply. The Welsh Government says it

is doing its bit to help close that

gap. Earlier this month the

government announced £340 million to

support the building of 20,000

affordable homes. Finance Secretary

Mark Drakeford also announced a

short list of four potential new

Welsh taxes, one will be chosen by

the Welsh Government to be put

forward to ministers in London for

approval. One of them is a vacant

land tax but the building industry

would like to see concrete proposals

now. Details on a vacant land tax

are vague and many within the

building industry say that is

causing some uncertainty. Now, the

tax would likely focus on the issue

of land banking and the accusation

is that developers and

house-builders accumulate large

plots of land, clog up the system

and halt the building of new homes.

We definitely do not land bank in

Wales. If a site isn't being built

out after it has received a full

implementable planning permission

then something has gone wrong. And

what we need to do is talk to the

local authorities, talk to Welsh

Government, about what it is that

has gone wrong with that site.

If

land banking means not developing on

land that has been granted

permission shoot away, then it

happens, then the reality is that

they will only develop in accordance

with what they will sell. You cannot

expect them to be building houses

they cannot sell. We build houses

for people to live in. My definition

is not developing a piece of land on

purpose to drip feed the market. And

we completely disagree with that.

But we really need clarity on what

industry and government mean by land

banking.

The Welsh Government told

this programme that there are

international examples of vacant

land taxes being used to help

address housing supply issues. 80%

annual charge of the market price of

the land is designed to force

landowners and developers use it for

housing and will come into force in

Ireland next year. In June both the

Federation of Master builders Cymru

and the house-builders Federation

launched a pact with the Welsh

Government minister responsible for

housing, Carl Sargeant, to help

boost the supply of housing in Wales

but both organisations have raised

concerns at the introduction of a

vacant land tax could undermine that

Pat.

We don't know any of the

details yet. Until we know exactly

what he was Clement are talking

about, we can't respond to that

detail but in general, something

that taxes something that you are

trying to stop or raise any money.

It doesn't look like it is a good

idea. With a national house-builder,

you will have accommodation between

investing in Wales and investing

your money in England and if it is

easier to build houses in England

and get a return on your money then

obviously people are going to make

those choices.

If the Welsh

Government plan... If they plan on

punishing that small builder for not

developing that 20 homes that he

cannot sell because of the economic

downturn then ultimately that small

house builder will just sell the

land. Those houses that would have

been built just all be built at all.

I think we have to be really careful

that we don't diss incentivise them

from building. Rather than using a

stick to beat them with, let's use

carrots.

I am not sure they will be

digging up carrots here but in

preparing the ground for new Welsh

taxes, the government says it

received over 300 responses from the

public on new taxes after what it

called a national debate over the

summer. A vacant land tax and the

three others being proposed will be

built on unrefined over the coming

months. -- and refined.

One of the biggest reforms in Welsh

education in decades,

a new curriculum, will be taught

in schools from 2022.

It replaces the national

curriculum established

by Margaret Thatcher's Conservative

government 30 years ago.

Well, the architect of that plan

was Kenneth Baker - now Lord Baker.

If, like me you went

to school in the '80s you'd

remember Baker Days,

well you can thank him for those.

He was recently in Wales to meet

Kirsty Williams and compare notes.

Our Education Correspondent Bethan

Lewis went to meet him.

Kenneth Baker, Mrs Thatcher 's new

man in the education hot seat. Mrs

Thatcher has chosen Kenneth Baker to

be the new Education Secretary. He

is regarded as one of the most

skilful communicators in the

government.

It was 1986, the start

of a three-year period of major

reforms in education overseen by

Kenneth Baker. He gave his name to

Baker days, teacher training days in

schools now known as inset days.

Some of his innovations survived the

transfer of responsibility of

education to Welsh ministers a

decade later and some didn't. School

league tables were ditched in the

early years of devolution.

Extensively reformed stents, GCSEs

and the core elements of the

national curriculum remained.

-- since. Virtually always in step

with Margaret Thatcher when he was

in her Cabinet, he has been critical

of changes introduced by recent

English education ministers and last

month he met the Welsh Education

Secretary Kirsty Williams in Cardiff

Bay. What did you talk about, what

did you discuss?

She was interested

in the curriculum. I said how we had

to change the curriculum. I did say

that I thought it was far too

academic at the moment. I think that

there should be many more different

subjects under 16. Which is what I

did with the original curriculum.

Now they just concentrate on a

narrow range of academic subjects. I

don't think that is right.

Did you

get a sense that what I is happening

in Wales, because there is a

different curriculum being developed

in Wales, that is more to your

taste?

I think it depends what you

do with that period and when you...

What ages you introduce certain

thing. If you do that, around about

the age of 13, 14, you have a much

more technical education. And I

think that is what she should extend

up to 18. You will see a pathway

going from 13 and 14 to get good

results at 16 and even higher

qualifications.

In recent years he

has been a vocal campaigner in

favour of expanding vocational

education and boosting its status.

Every attempt to improve it since

1870 has failed because they have

usually been killed by snobbery. The

thing that is buoyed up with the

Welsh education system and the

English education system has always

been a large amount of unskilled

jobs. The only time a human hand is

likely to have touched something you

have ordered is when someone knocks

on your door and says we have got a

delivery. It is all done by

computers and digital technique.

There will be far fewer unskilled

jobs of that sort. What are these

youngsters going to do? You have to

give them a different range of

skills. Not just the exam subjects.

But to train them to make things

with their hands. To have experience

of working as teams on projects

brought in by businesses to their

schools.

And engage in

problem-solving. He is behind the

university technical colleges,

academies for 14-19 -year-olds in

England. Some questioned their

success but Lord Baker is proud of

the employment record of their

students. These are academies, as

you said. Is there scope for

something similar in Wales?

I would

have thought so. If that is the

policy of the government, I don't

think it will change. And that is a

pity because academies are quite a

good idea. The local authority does

not lose control in any sort of way.

But I have spoken to the Vice

Chancellor of Cardiff University and

he knows about them and he likes

them and he would like to create

possibly an institution in his own

area in the university from 14-18,

19, call it a university technical

college or whatever you will. But

start much earlier and the

university would take an interest in

it.

We are different to the English

counties. We want to get our aims of

the ground. What are you going to do

about it?

Back in the late 1980s,

Kenneth Baker faced the wrath of

some Welsh school teachers. These

days his focuses mainly on the

English system. He spent his early

years is in Newport but observations

on the new Welsh curriculum are now

largely made from afar.

There is

good to be a big drive on Digital

skills, there is no question about

that. I would place that at the

heart of any new curriculum.

What

about the practicalities of

introducing such a major change in

education? I am sure you have found

it challenging in terms of changing

the culture may be within schools

and the practicalities of

introducing a national curriculum.

What sort of challenges is she

likely to face in that regard?

I did

change virtually everything in

education. I made schools

independent and gave them their own

budgets to run. And if a government

knows that it wants to do, it can

get through changes. It must take

the parents with them, the teachers

with them.

Despite the major changes

since, that advice is probably as

relevant now as it was in the 1980s.

In two days' time, we'll

have the latest chapter in a long

running saga called House of Lords

reform with yet another report

on how it should be altered.

Many have tried to tackle the issue;

all, in the last 20 years

anyway, have failed.

So what, if anything

needs to be done about

the 800-plus Lords a leaping?

Jess Blair is from the Electoral

Reform Society and is with me now.

What needs to be done? What is the

main problem you have with the House

of Lords as it is at the moment?

The

central problem around Hawaii the

House of Lords is failing is the

fact that lords are not elected and

cannot be held accountable for their

actions. We have seen 114 lords not

speak at all in the last year and

claim £1.3 million in expenses.

OK,

isn't there the point to be made the

fact that they are pointed rather

than elected means that what you get

is a body of experts because the

House of Lords' point is to revise

and see how legislation has been

drawn up by MPs? Isn't that decades

of expertise will accrue expertise

that they bring in?

Largely, they

are former politicians. David

Cameron introduced more lords in

2010. They are not necessarily all

experts and if they are not doing

their job in holding... Scrutinising

what the element is doing then what

are they doing there?

If we had an

elected House of Lords, there is a

danger that you would not have

expert at all wanting to go in

because who wants to go through an

election and maybe be kicked out? By

having those experts there, that is

a strong point. You would just have

another set of MPs with elections.

We are one of the only nations in

the world that do not have an

elected second chamber. Ultimately I

think the public should be trusted

with this decision.

Do you think the

public care?

Yes, I think so. The

second chamber has a crucial role.

Representing the nations and regions

across the UK.

You say that people

care. Lords reform, I think Lloyd

George started this over 100 years

ago and yet there it is, very little

has changed. They're clearly isn't

that much of an appetite to change

it or else it probably would have

been done by now.

Really the

expenses scandal is that, a scandal.

We don't hold on a flight on what is

going on in the Lords at the moment.

At a time when public services are

more strain, I don't understand how

it's fair that they can claim £1.3

million in expenses for doing

nothing.

There are some leaks to the

newspapers this morning.

Time-limited peers. In future, any

new peers would not be able to sit

for more than 15 years. That is

short of what you want to see but

would that be a good idea?

It should

be part of a package but ultimately

from the leaks we have seen so far,

the proposals will only reduce the

house by about 200. We should have a

300 member elected second chamber.

Why so few? At the moment there are

800. The leaks today would suggest

there should be fewer than there are

MPs.

At the moment, we have the

second largest second chamber in the

world after China, which frankly

isn't great. And 300 is about

proportional with what other nations

have.

Going back to that point about

the expertise, how do you get over

that? You do have world leading

experts in their field sitting in

the House of Lords and they can look

over this subject, that subject, and

say it should be altered in that

way.

I think lords that do their

jobs properly would win elections

ultimately.

But would they stand,

that is the problem.

It is a problem

but I think we are the exception to

the rule and they stand in other

nations and that is not a problem.

Looking at Wales, 60 Assembly

Members at the moment. Does there

need to be a second chamber there,

revising what the legislation drawn

up by the Assembly Members are?

I

think ultimately the assembly needs

to be bigger and that is the first

thing. Citizens and members of the

public to have a role in

scrutinising the assembly and making

sure that what is going through is

effective. And I think models like

citizens assemblies that we have

been trialling in Manchester, we did

an assembly on Brexit, they can be

useful.

How does that work?

We

basically polled a number of people

across the UK, filed a

representative sample of around 52

members, gave them impartial

information on Brexit and let them

make a decision on what

recommendations they should make to

the UK Government.

It is very

concerned, people have got jobs, got

kids, they have got to go shopping,

do people want to be involved in

making those decisions as well? Do

they want to leave that to the

elected politicians?

I think there

is a huge appetite. When we invited

them, every single person came

along. In Ireland, they have had

this debate around abortion and that

has led to a referendum taking place

next year. There is clearly an

appetite and an impact that people

can have on politics.

You said about

the Assembly Members, there should

be more of them, we know that there

is a report being written, and

enquiry looking at it once again.

Where would you come down in terms

of numbers? How many do you think

from the 60 at the moment of?

We

said around 100 B-eat would be

around right. We need to look that

any increase we can see and I think

it is really vital.

We have had

quite a lot of Assembly Members come

in and say that but nobody will give

us a number. Why not?

There is a

panel looking at this at the moment

and we will wait to see what the

recommendations are. I think an

increase of another 50% could have a

really valuable impact. We know that

committees are under strain and

legislation is not the best it could

be.

That is another debate for

another day. Thank you very much.

That's it from me for this week.

Don't forget about our new monthly

debate programme, The Hour,

beginning tomorrow night at 10:40

here on BBC One Wales.

But for now that's all

from me, diolch am wylio,

thanks for watching.

Time to go back to Sarah.

With that, it's back to Sarah.

With that, it's back to Sarah.

Now, the much anticipated

EU Withdrawal Bill,

which will transfer EU law into UK

law in preparation for Brexit,

is expected to be debated

by MPs later next month.

Critics have called it a "power

grab" as it introduces so-called

Henry VIII powers for Whitehall

to amend some laws without

consulting parliament,

and it faces fierce resistance

from opposition parties

as well as many on the government's

own backbenches, with 300 amendments

and 54 new clauses tabled on it.

We're joined now by the Conservative

MP Anna Soubry who has been a strong

critic of the legislation.

Thank you very much for joining us.

Before we talk about the withdrawal

bill, I would like to bring up with

you that the Prime Minister has just

sent a letter to the Commons Speaker

John Bercow asking for an

independent body to be established

to investigate claims of sexual

harassment in Parliament. What are

your thoughts on that?

A very good

idea, sounds like a great deal of

common sense. I had already this

morning sent a request to the

speaker asking for an urgent

statement from the Leader of the

House as to what could now be done

to make sure that any complaints

actually against anybody working in

Parliament, to extend the

protections that workers throughout

the rest of businesses and in other

workplaces have, they should now be

extended into Parliament and asking

for an urgent statement from the

leader. Clearly the PM is well onto

this and it is a good idea. We have

to make sure everybody who works in

Parliament enjoys exactly the same

protections as other workers, so I

welcome this.

This should maybe have

happened a long time ago. We hear

stories of harassment that has been

going on for decades, but until now

it has been difficult to work out

who you could complain to about it.

It is my understanding that my Chief

Whip and the previous deputy Chief

Whip, and Milton, shared that view

and have shared that view for some

time but found it difficult to get

all the agreement necessary. Anyway,

we are where we are and we are

making that progress, but

my Chief Whip and the previous

deputy Chief Whip wanted this done

some time ago.

That is an

interesting point. Let's move on to

the much anticipated EU withdrawal

bill which will finally be debated.

You have put your name to an

amendment which is calling for a

vote on the final agreement in

essence, do you really believe that

that will be a meaningful both

offered to the Commons?

Yes, if you

look at the terms of the amendment,

it would deliver exactly that. It

would give members of Parliament the

opportunity to debated and voted on

it. It would be an effective piece

of legislation and would go through

both houses and should be done. One

of the problems with this process is

that Parliament has been excluded

from the sort of debate and

decisions that would have enabled

the government to move forward in

progress and form a consensus so we

get the very best Brexit deal.

We

have been excluded, that has been

wrong in my view, but by the end we

should not be excluded. The

government have made it clear that

whilst there may well be a boat if

you win on this amendment, it will

be a take it or leave it vote. This

is a deal you should accept, or

there will be no deal.

If you look

at the amendment we put forward

there will be other alternatives.

This is all hypothetical because we

want a good deal and it is difficult

to see that the government would not

bring a good deal to the House in

any event. But this is hypothetical,

it would mean Parliament would say

to government, go back and seek an

extension as we know it is there in

Article 50. It is perfectly possible

with the agreement of the other

members of the EU to seek an

extension so we continue the

negotiations and we get a deal that

is good for our country. It keeps

all options open and that is the

most important thing.

How many

Conservative MPs really would take

that option in those circumstances?

It is only if you get enough votes

that you would be able to ask the

government to go back and

re-negotiate.

Have you for that?

For give me, but

you are jumping way down the line. I

am talking about an amendment that

keeps the options open. I am not

speculating as to what would happen,

I am not going there, it is far too

speculative. Let's get this bill in

good shape. The principle of this

bill is right and we need to put

into British domestic law existing

EU laws and regulations into our

substantive law. We all agree that

must happen. It is the means by

which we do it that causes problems

and we have this argument and debate

about what we call the endgame.

I am

sure we will talk about this many

more times before we get to that

vote. I will turn to our panel of

political experts. Listening to the

tone of what the remainders are

trying to achieve with the EU

withdrawal bill, will be achieved?

You can hear that tussled there,

they want the maximum space and room

for Parliament to have a say. But

they have to be careful. The reason

is that clock is ticking and if you

have a situation which may seem to

be more interested in finding

different things to object to and

saying no to, it is not getting a

good deal and it does not look good

for the remainders in this argument

and they will have to come through

with their proposals. I do not mind

Parliament saying it should have a

big say, but what do you do if

Parliament says this is not good

enough? The government must simply

say, I am sorry we have run out of

time. The 27 will say they cannot be

bothered to have another round

either. They have to be strong, but

realistic about what their role in

this is.

Do you think the people

putting this amendment who say they

want a binding vote in parliament

are doing it because they think

Parliament should have a say or

because they want to obstruct it?

They do not think people should have

a say in the first place, they think

people got it wrong, so they need

more clever people than the voters

to have final say.

Or they believed

taking back control means Parliament

should have the final say.

Parliament said they would like to

give that decision back to the

people. This is the issue. It seems

to me that people like Anna Soubry

are trying to delay of the

transition period a bit longer.

These negotiations will take as long

as they have got. The EU will take

it to the wire and if we do not get

a decent deal, and one of the

reasons is the level of incompetence

on this government's part I have to

say and the other one will be the

people who want to remain

undermining them. They undermined

the government at every single stage

and they undermine Britain's

interests.

It is the timing of all

of this that is crucial and whether

the government can get a deal in

time.

There will be a meaningful

vote, whether it is an shined in

legislation or not, there cannot be

an historic development as big as

this without Parliament having a

meaningful vote. I meaningful,

having the power to either stop it

or endorse it. You cannot have a