05/11/2017 Sunday Politics Wales


05/11/2017

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 05/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, everyone,

and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:380:00:40

I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:400:00:42

And this is your guide to everything

that's happening in the world

0:00:420:00:45

of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:450:00:46

On today's show:

0:00:460:00:49

Theresa May's right-hand man

Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:490:00:51

police found pornography

on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:510:00:58

He says the allegations by a former

police chief are "political smears."

0:00:580:01:01

With claims of sexual harassment

at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:010:01:03

can either Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:030:01:06

to grips with a scandal

threatening to engulf

0:01:060:01:08

the entire political class?

0:01:080:01:12

We'll ask a minister and senior

member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:120:01:18

And some on the left of politics

have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:180:01:24

Later in the programme...

have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:240:01:25

A special investigation into sexual

harassment at the Assembly.

0:01:250:01:27

This programme is told it happens

all the time and a blind eye

0:01:270:01:31

is turned to bad behaviour.

0:01:310:01:35

is turned to bad behaviour.

0:01:350:01:37

So there's plenty of

explosive political news

0:01:450:01:47

to get you in the mood

for bonfire night -

0:01:470:01:49

and with me as usual,

three journalists who know quite

0:01:490:01:52

a bit about parliamentary plots -

if rather less about

0:01:520:01:54

gunpowder and treason.

0:01:540:01:55

It's Tom Newton Dunn,

Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:550:01:57

So what are the big political

stories making the news this Sunday?

0:01:570:02:01

Well, the papers are brimming

with further allegations against MPs

0:02:010:02:09

in the sexual harassment scandal,

which according to one newspaper has

0:02:090:02:11

left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:110:02:13

First Secretary of State Damian

Green, already under

0:02:130:02:15

investigation over allegations -

which he strongly denies -

0:02:150:02:17

of propositioning a female activist,

is the subject of new claims that

0:02:170:02:20

police discovered pornography

on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:200:02:22

office in 2008.

0:02:220:02:23

Mr Green denies the allegation,

made by former senior

0:02:230:02:26

police officer Bob Quick,

saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:260:02:28

and adding that he is the victim

of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:280:02:36

Michael Fallon, who resigned

as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:360:02:38

over his past behaviour,

is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:380:02:41

he lunged at a female journalist

in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:410:02:46

Labour is facing questions

over its handling of sexual

0:02:460:02:48

misconduct allegations.

0:02:480:02:53

misconduct allegations.

0:02:530:02:55

This morning Shadow Cabinet minister

Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:550:02:58

on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew

about alleged misconduct by MP

0:02:580:03:00

Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted

to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:000:03:08

And there is a reminder that normal

political life goes on,

0:03:080:03:11

with reports that the Cabinet has

agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:110:03:14

of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:140:03:15

Well, let's hear from

Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:150:03:18

she was on the Andrew Marr Show

earlier talking about the claims

0:03:180:03:21

against her Cabinet colleague Damian

Green.

0:03:210:03:23

Absolutely not. I think it is

something that will take place in

0:03:230:03:29

terms of clearing out Westminster of

that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:290:03:34

that Westminster afterwards,

including the Government, will be

0:03:340:03:37

better for it. When we are confident

that men and women can work any

0:03:370:03:45

respectful environment and people on

the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:450:03:48

can come forward. That will be a

positive thing.

0:03:480:03:54

Let's see what our panel make of

this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:540:03:58

morning to all of you. Starting with

you, Steve. Not a party political

0:03:580:04:05

issue but the Tories are in

Government. How much harder for them

0:04:050:04:09

is it an Labour?

Always harder when

you are in Government because it

0:04:090:04:13

makes governing almost impossible.

And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:130:04:17

Minister who lost her overall

majority a few months ago and

0:04:170:04:20

actually that is the context of

everything. When you are having to

0:04:200:04:23

deal with the scandal of such

unpredictability, where the

0:04:230:04:26

terms are so imprecise, it

0:04:260:04:33

terms are so imprecise, it is a

"lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:330:04:38

that term, and nightmare. I don't

think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:380:04:41

bring down governments, but it makes

governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:410:04:48

political health.

Isabel Oakeshott,

Damian Green has denied all

0:04:480:04:51

allegations made against him, but

there are more this morning. He is

0:04:510:04:54

being investigated by the Cabinet

Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:540:04:59

were to effectively lose her Deputy

Prime Minister, has serious without

0:04:590:05:03

the?

I think very serious indeed. I

think it is very significant and

0:05:030:05:08

strange he was not defended in the

Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:080:05:11

clip we saw today, she didn't say I

am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:110:05:15

beginning to feel that Damian may

not survive this. We don't know

0:05:150:05:20

whether it is the last of the

allegations that may come out in

0:05:200:05:23

relation to him. It seems to me that

the allegations were previously of a

0:05:230:05:27

rather minor order, but this seems

to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:270:05:33

of the big problems for Theresa May,

and there are the many at the

0:05:330:05:36

moment, for months we have been

saying that this Government has no

0:05:360:05:42

bandwidth to do anything except

Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:420:05:46

do Brexit. What is the point of it

all?

It is important to make clear

0:05:460:05:49

not only that Damian Green denies

all of these allegations, but the

0:05:490:05:53

computer mentioned was in a shared

office so there is no reason it

0:05:530:05:59

would definitely be his

# No guarantee it would definitely

0:05:590:06:04

be his. But we have had two MPs on

television this morning, Anna

0:06:040:06:15

Soubry, saying he should stand down.

There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:150:06:20

It is not just a pretty awful sexual

harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:200:06:26

without a doubt MPs, police

officers, going about settling

0:06:260:06:30

scores. For me I have to say for our

pretty discredited police officer

0:06:300:06:35

Bob Quick, to make accusations

against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:350:06:39

suggest he should go for extreme

pornography on computers he may or

0:06:390:06:46

may not have known, it may be

extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:460:06:50

alarming for democracy to have

ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:500:06:52

in and trying to play with

democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:520:06:56

meeting claims, some for the right

reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:560:06:59

there and so on but others for their

own agendas and all of this puts the

0:06:590:07:03

Prime Minister in an unbelievably

hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:030:07:07

and Isabel, she desperately needs

two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:070:07:10

every way she could turn there are

incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:100:07:13

her for trying to get to the bottom

of all this. It is very people who

0:07:130:07:18

she is relying on for her

leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:180:07:22

support she can't lose.

It is not

just the Tory party and of course

0:07:220:07:25

Jeremy Corbyn will be making a

speech later today where this will

0:07:250:07:29

inevitably and there are accusations

about how the senior leadership in

0:07:290:07:32

the Labour Party have handled this.

What about that situation?

Yes, but

0:07:320:07:38

the Government is much harder

because you are meant to be doing

0:07:380:07:41

10,000 other things at the same

time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:410:07:44

work environment. For all those who

say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:440:07:48

regulated, this is what happens in a

deregulated work environment. The

0:07:480:07:51

House of Commons has no HR or

whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:07:510:08:01

actually don't have much power but

they do have power over who the

0:08:010:08:03

point and how to treat them. I think

this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:030:08:08

the practical outcome, but it is

across the political spectrum.

But

0:08:080:08:11

it is unclear what it will be. Can

the party sort this out?

I'm not

0:08:110:08:16

sure I entirely agree, Steve, you

cannot regulate all human

0:08:160:08:20

interaction and a lot of these

stories have been about interactions

0:08:200:08:24

between politicians and journalists

alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:240:08:29

chosen to drink, presumably to

create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:290:08:34

at what point is a step towards

somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:340:08:38

the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You

can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:380:08:43

Throughout the programme will come

back to some of these things and how

0:08:430:08:48

they might be regulated.

0:08:480:08:50

Now, the Home Secretary has

also today been talking

0:08:500:08:52

about what she calls the "moral

duty" of social media companies

0:08:520:08:55

to stop child sexual exploitation,

ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:550:08:58

counterparts this week.

0:08:580:08:59

We're joined now by the Home Office

minister Sarah Newton -

0:08:590:09:01

she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:010:09:04

Thanks very much for coming in to

speak the first night. I want to

0:09:040:09:07

talk to you about the Government's

efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:070:09:10

but let's pick up on some of the

sexual harassment issues at

0:09:100:09:13

Westminster first. Two of your

parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:130:09:17

morning saying they think the first

Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:170:09:20

should step down whilst being

investigated. Do you agree?

Look, he

0:09:200:09:27

has vigorously denied these

accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:270:09:32

is investigating these accusations,

so we do have processes for when

0:09:320:09:38

ministers have these accusations

made against them so they are

0:09:380:09:40

properly investigated. And that is

what is going on at the moment.

Is

0:09:400:09:45

that process people can be confident

in? He is effectively being

0:09:450:09:49

investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one

of his colleagues.

This is a tried

0:09:490:09:55

and tested process that has stood

the test of time, and it is

0:09:550:10:00

important...

Has it? Surely what we

are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:000:10:04

test of time and that in fact

allegations like this have been

0:10:040:10:06

swept under the carpet and ignored

for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:060:10:10

exactly what we are learning right

now.

I think you are conflating two

0:10:100:10:15

things they are, and what we really

do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:150:10:18

range of allegations people have

been making, and make sure

0:10:180:10:23

Parliament is a safe place for

people to work, a respectful

0:10:230:10:27

environment for people who have been

subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:270:10:32

or inappropriate behaviour, so that

they feel confident to come forward

0:10:320:10:34

knowing they will be listened to,

that there will be an open and

0:10:340:10:39

transparent and fair to everyone

concerned process for getting to the

0:10:390:10:41

bottom of it, and that is exactly

what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:410:10:46

Leader of the Cows have set out,

Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:460:10:51

the leaders of the parties tomorrow

to set out a proper process so we

0:10:510:10:56

can modernise the work environment

at Westminster -- leader of the

0:10:560:11:04

House have set out.

You think Damian

Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:040:11:08

well being investigated?

That will

be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:080:11:14

thinks the misdemeanours have a

basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:140:11:18

that will be the recommendation. I

will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:180:11:23

Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.

You were

in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:230:11:28

year. And much has been said this

week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:280:11:32

of a lot of information about bad

behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:320:11:35

it to authorities they were using it

as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:350:11:39

experience?

Absolutely not. I was at

the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:390:11:46

yes, I heard about the rumours of a

black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:460:11:49

certainly say I never saw such a

thing. How I went about my business

0:11:490:11:53

as a whip is really twofold. It is

quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:530:11:58

about of the Government through the

House, working with the House

0:11:580:12:04

authorities, the opposition. Also...

Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:040:12:07

people's bad behaviour?

Sorry?

Did

you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:070:12:15

misbehaving, sexual harassment,

allegations are that?

If anybody had

0:12:150:12:18

brought a complaint to me about the

behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:180:12:23

in my flock, I would take that

really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:230:12:27

didn't happen.

You said nobody

brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:270:12:31

hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't

happen.

About the members of my

0:12:310:12:37

flock? Absolutely not.

Is that the

MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:370:12:41

of?

I did not have that experience

at all.

Let's move on and talk about

0:12:410:12:47

the Home Secretary's trip to

Washington this week, where she will

0:12:470:12:51

urge tech companies to go further

and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:510:12:55

have heard a lot from this

Government urging these companies to

0:12:550:12:58

do something. One specific ideas of

what they could do, do you have a

0:12:580:13:02

clear idea of what you are asking

from tech companies?

Absolutely

0:13:020:13:05

right. As you know, this horrendous

crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:050:13:12

and grooming is constantly evolving

as the opportunities for the

0:13:120:13:17

perpetrators arise. They are now

using live streaming, different

0:13:170:13:21

sorts of platforms, which are

largely controlled by the big

0:13:210:13:25

companies in America. What we really

want them to do is to step up and

0:13:250:13:29

use their huge expertise, used the

huge money they have got, to help

0:13:290:13:35

find technological solutions to read

their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:350:13:39

of these paedophiles to be able to

groom young people. We need the

0:13:390:13:42

politicians in America to exert

pressure, as well as other

0:13:420:13:49

companies, because these are global

problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:490:13:52

this problem in the UK alone. We

have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:520:13:56

with Facebook and other companies as

well, but we really need to keep one

0:13:560:14:00

step ahead of the technology, one

step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:000:14:06

are using these opportunities to

commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:060:14:11

It was back in 2014 Theresa May for

the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:110:14:15

terms of child abuse online and we

have not seen significant action,

0:14:150:14:19

and it does not appear these kind of

calls from the Government actually

0:14:190:14:22

make difference.

Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:220:14:27

the police being able to make about

400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:270:14:32

children being safeguarded. The

Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:320:14:36

of money in new technology like the

project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:360:14:42

the police have the specialist

resources they need to go

0:14:420:14:46

undercover, and absolutely find

these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:460:14:48

justice, but we do need to

constantly have the engagement and

0:14:480:14:52

support of the companies themselves

to invest in further technologies to

0:14:520:14:56

prevent this from happening. As you

say, we have made progress but we

0:14:560:14:59

need to see yet more.

Sarah Newton,

thank you very much for speaking to

0:14:590:15:04

us today.

0:15:040:15:06

Michael Fallon's decision

to resign this week,

0:15:060:15:08

saying his past conduct with women

fell short of the standard expected

0:15:080:15:13

of the Armed Forces, led

to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:130:15:15

And the Prime Minister took

Westminster by surprise

0:15:150:15:17

when she announced his replacement,

former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:170:15:20

newcomer to the ministerial

ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:200:15:22

Here he is speaking on the day

of his appointment.

0:15:220:15:28

of State for Defence,

and what we need to be doing

0:15:280:15:31

is continuing to focus

on countering Daesh,

0:15:310:15:33

making sure that our national

security is at the forefront

0:15:330:15:36

of everything that we do,

and we have some of the world's

0:15:360:15:41

to work with them.

0:15:410:15:46

to work with them.

0:15:460:15:47

Gavin Williamson, who you saw there,

arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:470:15:50

at a challenging time

for UK defence.

0:15:500:15:52

The Government has promised

an above-inflation increase

0:15:520:15:54

in spending every year

but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:540:15:56

is already committed to finding

£20 billion of savings

0:15:560:15:58

over the next ten years.

0:15:580:15:59

The Cabinet Office is currently

conducting a security review

0:15:590:16:01

which will look at military

capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:010:16:04

while there are continuing

reports of shortages

0:16:040:16:06

of manpower and equipment.

0:16:060:16:10

of manpower and equipment.

0:16:100:16:10

And if Labour were to win power,

questions persist over

0:16:100:16:13

what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership

would mean for defence budget

0:16:130:16:15

and the traditional cornerstones

of UK defence policy

0:16:150:16:17

like Trident and Nato.

0:16:170:16:18

Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

0:16:180:16:20

secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:200:16:24

Well we're joined now

by the Shadow Defence

0:16:240:16:25

secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:250:16:30

secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:300:16:31

Let's talk about defence spending

first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:310:16:36

same thing this Government has which

is an above inflation increase in

0:16:360:16:39

spending every year?

We've been

absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:390:16:44

and foremost we'd meet our

commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:440:16:49

of GDP on defence as is our Nato

commitment and we would match the

0:16:490:16:55

Government's year-on-year 0.5%

increase above inflation. This is

0:16:550:16:58

really important. Labour's always

had a good strong track record of

0:16:580:17:02

spending on defence.

Jeremy Corbyn

seems to have a different view.

0:17:020:17:05

Speaking at a protest in 2010 he

said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:050:17:10

cuts except those in the Armed

Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:100:17:14

more cuts taking place. He doesn't

seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:140:17:19

In the manifesto for this year's

election, 2017, he and John

0:17:190:17:24

McDonnell have been absolutely clear

we support the exact words I've been

0:17:240:17:27

using now, at least 2% of the spend

of GDP spent on defence.

Jeremy

0:17:270:17:33

Corbyn's changed his mind on that?

He's been very clear about that and

0:17:330:17:37

it was in our manifesto this year.

You criticised the Government on

0:17:370:17:43

whether they meet their 2%

commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:430:17:48

they were fiddling the figures

because they were including

0:17:480:17:51

pensions. You would strip that out

and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:510:17:56

on defence which doesn't include

pensions?

Technically, the

0:17:560:17:59

Government would argue you are

allowed to include pensions by the

0:17:590:18:02

Nato rules. But we've been very

clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:020:18:07

about defence spending it should

mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:070:18:12

last year of the Labour Government

we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:120:18:17

very much committed to looking at

what we need in our defence budget

0:18:170:18:22

and looking to the problems they

have now where they can't meet the

0:18:220:18:26

commitments they've made.

You would

sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:260:18:31

In order to live up to these

commitments you have to find an

0:18:310:18:36

extra billion for the defence

budgets because we're not

0:18:360:18:40

calculating pensions anymore?

John

McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:400:18:44

are doing. Putting in the conflict

resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:440:18:49

kept separate. He is well aware of

the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:490:18:53

are certainly very committed to a

defence budget that really does make

0:18:530:18:57

a difference.

I'm not clear whether

you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:18:570:19:02

spending, excluding pensions?

We

want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:020:19:08

way Labour always calculate it had

up until 2010, not including

0:19:080:19:12

pensions.

A significant increase in

military spending?

We are talking

0:19:120:19:17

about making sure the spending we

need is there because, at the

0:19:170:19:22

current situation, we have with the

current Government, they are

0:19:220:19:25

overstretched. Even the very caution

National Audit Office says they are

0:19:250:19:30

at immense risk of not being able to

meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:300:19:35

they have made. Others talk about a

black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:350:19:40

£20 billion. There is a real issue

we have to address.

To you know what

0:19:400:19:48

it will cost, how muchedingsal funds

will have to be found?

We have to

0:19:480:19:52

rook at what are the needs at the

time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:520:19:58

make that 2% commitment not

including things which have just

0:19:580:20:02

been brushed in now by the

Conservative Government.

Let's move

0:20:020:20:05

on to a different aspect of defence.

There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:050:20:11

weapons opened at the UN for

signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:110:20:15

already signed it. Would an incoming

Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:150:20:20

The important point here is there

was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:200:20:23

there to be observers from the UK.

There should have been at that

0:20:230:20:28

treaty talks.

That doesn't change

the calculation whether or not an

0:20:280:20:34

incoming Labour Government would

sign that treaty?

We are committed

0:20:340:20:40

to a strong multi-lateral disarming

programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:400:20:45

missing.

This is a multilateral

approach to try to get rid of

0:20:450:20:49

nuclear weapons. What you say you

want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:490:20:54

that treaty?

You we have to look at

how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:540:20:58

somebody clear we want to

de-escalate tensions across the

0:20:580:21:01

world. Work with other nuclear

partners to help stop the

0:21:010:21:06

proliferation of nuclear weapons. We

want to work with those countries

0:21:060:21:10

who feel very strongly about the

treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:100:21:16

have to do that in a multilateral

framework.

This is a multi-lateral

0:21:160:21:22

disarmament framework. Under the

auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:220:21:26

else it could be organised. This is

a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:260:21:30

have been a lifelong campaigner for

disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:300:21:35

will be the first nuclear power to

do so, sign it and lead the way.

We

0:21:350:21:40

need to use our position to be

responsible and call for responsible

0:21:400:21:45

multi-lateral disarmamentment there

was progress made on this in the

0:21:450:21:49

eighties and nineties with

considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:490:21:51

to one side and destroyed. We need

to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:510:21:55

I don't see any presence by the UK

Government at the moment on that

0:21:550:21:59

aagain da. It is not helpful for the

nukes leer nations to be separated

0:21:590:22:04

from the non-nuclear nation in the

these debates.

That's why I don't

0:22:040:22:09

understand why you're not taking the

opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:090:22:14

Government would Take The Stand.

We

should wok together and we should

0:22:140:22:17

use our position as a nuclear power

to work for a multilateral

0:22:170:22:22

disarmament programme.

You were very

clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:220:22:26

Labour Party would keep Trident for

the meantime.

Abs will yously.

We

0:22:260:22:30

know throughout his life, Jeremy

Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:300:22:34

it. He signed up to the manifesto

saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:340:22:40

changed his minds?

The important

thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:400:22:45

Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to.

We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:450:22:49

is the Labour Party position.

Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:490:22:54

Leader really believes in that

position?

He believes in democracy

0:22:540:22:57

in the party. That is the Labour

Party position. I don't see that

0:22:570:23:01

position changing at all. He has

said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:010:23:05

that is our Labour Party position.

And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:050:23:09

stood on and will continue to stand

on.

I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:090:23:13

sexual harassment in Westminster. It

is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:130:23:18

Party as the Conservative. It was

not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:180:23:22

your colleague on The Andrew Marr

Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:220:23:25

whether or not the leadership knew

about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:250:23:30

Do you know?

I absolutely do not

know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:300:23:34

why there has to be an

investigation. It is extremely

0:23:340:23:36

important to find out what the

allegations were, exactly what

0:23:360:23:41

happened, who was told and who told

what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:410:23:46

position to see what the situation

is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:460:23:51

has been suspended which is the

cricket thing to do.

Rosie Winterton

0:23:510:23:58

has been outspoken about what she

let the leadership know. If it is

0:23:580:24:02

the case the leadership did know

about these allegations should he

0:24:020:24:06

have been put into the Shadow

Cabinet?

The real question is who

0:24:060:24:10

did know what when.

But what I'm

asking you is...

I am anot going to

0:24:100:24:16

speculate whether there was an if or

whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:160:24:21

information was transmitted. Was it

put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:210:24:24

who was told what, when. Until we

have a full investigation it would

0:24:240:24:28

be inappropriate to comment. What is

absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:280:24:32

this right for the future. We must

have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:320:24:36

with incidents as and when they

occur. And we deal with them

0:24:360:24:41

prepperly in a way which gets to the

bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:410:24:45

it properly.

Why should anyone have

confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:450:24:49

treat issues that seriously when,

firstly there's a question whether

0:24:490:24:54

they knew about Kelvin hop kips and

others have been dissuaded from

0:24:540:24:58

making complaints. Knots just Bex

Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:24:580:25:04

was harassed at a party senior

figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:040:25:08

it was her own fault. It seems as if

there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:080:25:15

Labour to make a complaint.

That's

why we're having a thorough review

0:25:150:25:20

of procedures. We brought in new

procedures in July. We need to

0:25:200:25:25

ensure there's a proper helpline

available. We are appointing an

0:25:250:25:30

independent organisation which will

deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:300:25:33

nobody has to go to somebody they

think might know other people, be

0:25:330:25:36

friends with other people. They can

go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:360:25:42

and private. These are often things

you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:420:25:46

friends about. We will appoint that

organisation and make sure people

0:25:460:25:50

can go there and access to it is

made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:500:25:55

important when people come into a

job, they know if anything does

0:25:550:25:58

happen, they will be able to

complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:25:580:26:02

party members or working in

Westminster.

Thank you for talking

0:26:020:26:08

to us

0:26:080:26:09

For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:090:26:11

on the left of politics,

0:26:110:26:12

this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:120:26:14

to mark the anniversary

of the failed gunpowder

0:26:140:26:16

plot here in Britain,

but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:160:26:19

ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries

led by Lenin seized power

0:26:190:26:21

and ushered in seven

decades of Communist rule.

0:26:210:26:23

For critics, that's something

to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:230:26:25

Elizabeth Glinka went to one event

in London to find out more.

0:26:250:26:27

The 7th November 1917.

0:26:310:26:34

Red Guards under the leadership

of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:340:26:37

Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:370:26:42

This uprising, known

popularly as Red October

0:26:420:26:45

because of the difference

in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:450:26:47

was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:470:26:51

The winds of socialist change had

been blowing for some time.

0:26:510:26:54

The Tsars had resisted reform

and millions toiled in a state

0:26:540:27:00

of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:000:27:02

Then war.

0:27:020:27:05

Nearly two million

Russians would die.

0:27:050:27:10

The revolution had really begun nine

months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:100:27:15

The world's first socialist

republic was declared.

0:27:150:27:22

October, well that

was the Bolsheviks

0:27:220:27:24

asserting their authority.

0:27:240:27:29

A hundred years on, as this

event at the TUC shows,

0:27:300:27:33

there's still plenty of people

who want to remember and even

0:27:330:27:37

celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:370:27:40

Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:400:27:43

this is an example of historical

development in action,

0:27:430:27:46

the ability of people to club

together and be able to affect

0:27:460:27:49

the discourse of history.

0:27:490:27:51

It was people's first attempt at

trying to build socialism.

0:27:510:27:53

Although there were many terrible

things that happened,

0:27:530:27:56

I think we have to try

and draw from experience.

0:27:560:27:59

Jeremy Corbyn's close friend

and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:27:590:28:01

was chairing the opening session.

0:28:010:28:04

He didn't want to talk to us

but we did manage to speak

0:28:040:28:08

to the daughter of one of the most

famous Communists of all time.

0:28:080:28:14

TRANSLATION:

It's an historic moment

0:28:140:28:16

which opened up possibilities

for further changes

0:28:160:28:19

and allowed other people

to strive for a different world.

0:28:190:28:22

A world, which it seems,

some are still keen to push for.

0:28:220:28:25

We're growing, so there is obviously

a positive reflection.

0:28:250:28:28

There is a lot of negative

propaganda that comes

0:28:280:28:30

from the Cold War period.

0:28:300:28:32

It is harder to talk

to older people maybe.

0:28:320:28:34

But younger people

are quite receptive.

0:28:340:28:36

The events and discussions taking

place here today cover a whole range

0:28:360:28:39

of topics from women's

rights to the Third World

0:28:390:28:42

and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:420:28:45

But there's much less discussion

of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:450:28:48

the purges and the political

repression that would come later.

0:28:480:28:52

We wanted to have this conference

0:28:520:28:55

because we wanted to show it

in a positive light.

0:28:550:28:58

Whatever one's view of what happened

to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:28:580:29:01

the fact is it is important

to understand the process

0:29:010:29:05

of revolutionary change

for its own sake.

0:29:050:29:09

Red October would usher

in 70 years of communism.

0:29:100:29:14

The proletarite would rise,

find respect and security.

0:29:140:29:17

But the suppression of the peoples

of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:170:29:20

camps and the murder of hundreds

of thousands, if not millions

0:29:200:29:25

of people, make it difficult

for many to see that revolution

0:29:250:29:28

as something to celebrate.

0:29:280:29:32

That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:340:29:36

So is the centenary

of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:360:29:38

for celebration, or regret?

0:29:380:29:39

Well, to discuss this I'm

joined by former Labour

0:29:390:29:41

and Respect MP George Galloway,

and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:410:29:47

Good morning. Let me start with you

George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:470:29:52

revolution a cause for celebration?

With the, if not for the October

0:29:520:29:57

revolution, we'd been conducting

this interview in German. Though the

0:29:570:30:00

truth is this interview wouldn't be

taking place and we probably

0:30:000:30:04

wouldn't be alive for a variety of

reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:040:30:11

back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill

often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:110:30:15

elsewhere. If not for the Soviet

Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:150:30:22

his successorsness, perhaps until

now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:220:30:28

Portugal.

You say we wouldn't be

able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:280:30:32

former Soviet Union we couldn't have

this office either?

That's also

0:30:320:30:35

true. But even the...

George will be

able to say, that of course.

Even

0:30:350:30:42

the sun has spots on its face as

they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:420:30:46

Union. There is no doubt tremendous

abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:460:30:56

suffering but, if not for the

transformation, then the Soviet

0:30:560:31:05

Union, Russia's GDP increased from

1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:050:31:12

And the strength that defeated

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:120:31:20

Peter Hitchens,

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:200:31:20

Peter Hitchens, does

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:200:31:20

Peter Hitchens, does it

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:200:31:21

Peter Hitchens, does it offend

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:210:31:22

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:220:31:22

Peter Hitchens, does it offend you

there are people celebrating 100

0:31:220:31:23

years since the Russian Revolution?

Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:230:31:28

in which I lived, you would not have

been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:280:31:33

cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but

engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:330:31:36

Government using -- a cynical

putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:360:31:53

was the inauguration of an immensely

long period of repression,

0:31:530:31:59

brutality, secret police,

concentration camps and lies, which

0:31:590:32:02

I am likely to have seen come to an

end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:020:32:06

why anybody looking at that

disastrous country where so much

0:32:060:32:10

misery was needlessly imposed on so

many people for so long could

0:32:100:32:12

possibly celebrate the beginning of

it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:120:32:16

and as I say was truly the result of

the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:160:32:22

intelligence operations of the

Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:220:32:23

to save it skin...

But everyone

including George Galloway

0:32:230:32:28

acknowledges the tyranny and terror

that followed.

He doesn't. He gives

0:32:280:32:33

statistics about GDP but fails to

mention the people murdered in

0:32:330:32:36

labour

0:32:360:32:42

camp... He was of course formerly a

Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:420:32:49

Lenin, which I have not done and

neither have I done today. I have

0:32:490:32:53

never been a Communist, unlike Peter

Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:530:32:57

celebrate that an entirely different

world opened up as a result of the

0:32:570:33:01

events in October 19 17. China, you

have just seen their party congress,

0:33:010:33:06

decorated with the iconography of

the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:060:33:11

is the most powerful, or soon will

be the most powerful country on the

0:33:110:33:14

earth.

With one of the most

repressive government?

I don't think

0:33:140:33:19

that is true. There is repression in

China, but...

Enormous repression in

0:33:190:33:24

China! How can you possibly argue

there is an?

China has taken more

0:33:240:33:29

people out of poverty in the last 30

years than any country, resume,

0:33:290:33:34

system, ever has -- how can you

possibly argue there is not?

All

0:33:340:33:39

despots always argue, trying to

distract your attention from the

0:33:390:33:42

mountains of skulls behind them,

their supposed economic success,

0:33:420:33:46

which generally does not turn out to

be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:460:33:49

Union was an enormous pile of rust

by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:490:33:54

complete catastrophe.

Yes, that is

why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:540:33:59

about the Revolution 100 years ago.

Is it possible to separate the two

0:33:590:34:04

events? A popular overthrowing of a

government is perhaps different from

0:34:040:34:07

the tyranny and terror that

followed.

It was not a popular

0:34:070:34:12

overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein

propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:120:34:17

we see was a film made afterwards.

What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:170:34:22

in the middle of the night in which

hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:220:34:30

mentioned...

That German connection,

a rather more important...

Nobody

0:34:300:34:37

has even mentioned during this year

until now that there was a Russian

0:34:370:34:40

Revolution. There were two. The

first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:400:34:46

overthrowing the old regime, and I

think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:460:34:49

second one was a cynical for --

foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:490:34:56

not deserve to be spoken out.

Is

that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:560:34:59

would have done better than a

Bolshevik one?

It is not my business

0:34:590:35:04

and entirely counterfactual fiction,

if I may...

Unlike how you open this

0:35:040:35:10

discussion.

That is the most

important thing. If not for the

0:35:100:35:14

Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here.

Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:140:35:22

world, with its allies -- Adolph

Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:220:35:27

and most of the world...

The effect

of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:270:35:32

Europe was colossal.

Let's bring it

all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:320:35:35

You were saying earlier you have

never been a Leninist, although

0:35:350:35:40

Peter Hitchens confesses he was at

one time.

Absolutely was a

0:35:400:35:47

Trotskyist, and now nor the complete

folly of that particular political

0:35:470:35:53

disposition.

John McDonnell in the

Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:530:35:58

Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a

problem for the Labour Party?

I

0:35:580:36:03

would have thought, arts would be

more respected now than he has been

0:36:030:36:06

for quite some time as capitalism is

collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:060:36:12

2008 the Economist itself, the bible

of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:120:36:17

Marxist economics and analysis, so I

really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:170:36:22

Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only

took them four years, 54...

It is

0:36:220:36:32

not that.

I think we are moving into

an era where Governments like the

0:36:320:36:40

Chinese Government are making plans,

and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:400:36:43

them, and thus transforming their

position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:430:36:50

need to tell you, was just about the

most backward place you could

0:36:500:36:52

possibly imagine. And from 1949 to

now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:520:36:59

is the world's biggest economy...

We

are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:36:590:37:08

by China here.

I have to put this

point in. If China was backward in

0:37:080:37:12

1949 it was far more backward by the

time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:120:37:16

leap forward and starved millions of

people to death in the period of

0:37:160:37:20

economic lunacy. You just don't

notice...

What George was saying

0:37:200:37:26

they are, and a sense certainly

amongst younger voters in this

0:37:260:37:29

country and others, where they are

turning against capitalism, they

0:37:290:37:32

don't think it has worked or

delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:320:37:36

of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

becoming more popular?

Let's hope

0:37:360:37:39

not. The fact the current system is

failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:390:37:43

the Soviet system, which is

demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:430:37:49

own leaders admitted it failed and

that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:490:37:52

in the period I was there and why it

collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:520:37:55

to conclude from examining our

position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:550:37:58

not the thing you want the dues.

This was a long period of disaster,

0:37:580:38:02

and I remember at the end of it

watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:020:38:06

has never been shown here, and the

title means approximately we can't

0:38:060:38:12

go on living like this, and for the

first time, the politburo told the

0:38:120:38:18

truth about what life was like in

the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:180:38:21

that cinema was weeping because

finally they saw the truth being

0:38:210:38:24

told about the dreadful

anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:240:38:26

been taught to live for so long. The

idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:260:38:30

it seems to me to be verging on the

obscene.

George, one interesting

0:38:300:38:35

question about this of course,

whilst there are events going on in

0:38:350:38:40

London and across the UK to mark

this centenary, it is not being

0:38:400:38:43

celebrated in Russia.

I was in

Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:430:38:46

is a big debate about whether it

ought to be, and many people are

0:38:460:38:51

celebrating it...

Vladimir Putin is

not. He would want to ignore it.

But

0:38:510:38:55

the Communist Party is the second

biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:38:550:39:00

the ruling party in China, which,

with respect, is not a separate

0:39:000:39:06

thing, because China is continuing

the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:060:39:08

rather better at it than the

Russians did, but there are many

0:39:080:39:14

people, particularly older, that is

true, who think that the era of the

0:39:140:39:17

Soviet Union was better than the

very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:170:39:23

succeeded it. So half the world

followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:230:39:30

the red banner of Leninism. No one

will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:300:39:38

kind that Peter used to proselytise

is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:380:39:42

Marxism is going to live on.

Let's

hope not.

Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:420:39:47

for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:470:39:49

It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:490:39:50

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:500:39:51

Coming up on the programme:

0:39:510:39:55

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:550:39:58

We've taken the moodbox to where

else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:580:40:00

It wasn't just Westminster

that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:000:40:03

We're asking people in Guildford

in Surrey,

0:40:030:40:05

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

0:40:050:40:05

Hello and welcome to

the Sunday Politics Wales.

0:40:130:40:14

In a few minutes, this programme

is told sexual harassment of women

0:40:140:40:17

in the Assembly goes

on all the time, and what does

0:40:170:40:21

the Welsh Government

want from Philip Hammond

0:40:210:40:23

when he presents his budget?

0:40:230:40:28

when he presents his budget?

0:40:280:40:32

I've been speaking with female

politicians past and present about

0:40:320:40:37

how women are treated in Cardiff Bay

and a very clear picture emerged.

0:40:370:40:40

It's just as bad as Westminster, it

just doesn't get the same coverage.

0:40:400:40:47

It's the story which has dominated

British politics for over a week,

0:40:470:40:58

politicians from all parties have

been called out on allegations of

0:40:580:41:03

sexual harassment and as more and

more cases come forward, time and

0:41:030:41:06

again, the question is asked, is

this just the tip of the iceberg.

0:41:060:41:14

But one question which isn't

really being asked is -

0:41:140:41:16

to what extent is that kind

of behaviour going on here

0:41:160:41:19

at the National Assembly?

0:41:190:41:20

The party leaders in Wales tell us

they'll be looking into issue.

0:41:200:41:23

The body responsible for staff

here says its revised its guidance

0:41:230:41:26

and its procedures but I've spoken

to over half a dozen women,

0:41:260:41:28

current AMs, former AMs,

researchers and officials

0:41:280:41:30

and they all tell me a similar story

which is that inappropriate

0:41:300:41:33

behaviour towards women -

and I quote -

0:41:330:41:35

"goes on all the time

at the Assembly."

0:41:350:41:40

One former Assembly Member told me

the problem is this place is so much

0:41:400:41:45

smaller than Westminster.

0:41:450:41:47

She said, when you see somebody

acting inappropriately,

0:41:470:41:50

you're more likely to know them,

to be friends with them,

0:41:500:41:53

that they tolerated things

they shouldn't and turned a blind

0:41:530:41:55

eye but she said there just

weren't the procedures

0:41:550:41:57

in place to deal with it.

0:41:570:42:00

Another former Assembly Member

told me of the story of a female

0:42:000:42:03

researcher waking up to find a male

Assembly Member undressing her.

0:42:030:42:06

Another occasion where she had

to physically step in to stop

0:42:060:42:09

a colleague from harassing

another female researcher.

0:42:090:42:11

The head of a body which supports

women in the workplace said it's

0:42:110:42:16

a problem for the Assembly

as well as councils across Wales.

0:42:160:42:20

There's something I said about power

and public exposure that changes

0:42:200:42:26

people's behaviour or not changes

it, but enables people to feel

0:42:260:42:28

a little bit more cavalier

about behaving in a way

0:42:280:42:35

that they wouldn't dare to do in

front of their friends and family.

0:42:350:42:38

And I would be amazed

if there wasn't a woman working

0:42:380:42:41

in Welsh public life who didn't

agree or didn't have a story

0:42:410:42:47

of their own to tell.

0:42:470:42:49

On a scale no doubt

from the relatively minor,

0:42:490:42:53

if you like, to much more serious

accusations, and I've no doubt

0:42:530:42:56

that those will come out over

the next few weeks and months.

0:42:560:43:00

So what are the parties doing?

0:43:000:43:02

Labour told us that this week,

they've written to the constituency

0:43:020:43:05

secretary and women's officers

with specific guidance

0:43:050:43:08

about reporting complaints

of sexual harassment,

0:43:080:43:11

including a copy of the procedure.

0:43:110:43:13

The Conservatives said

they were actively working

0:43:130:43:17

with colleagues across the party

to ensure that all appropriate

0:43:170:43:21

safeguards are in place to protect

staff from harassment

0:43:210:43:23

in all its forms.

0:43:230:43:25

The Lib Dems say there are clear

guidance on how to make a complaint

0:43:250:43:30

and in cases where the complainant

doesn't wish to disclose

0:43:300:43:33

their identity, the pastoral

care officer can act

0:43:330:43:35

as a de facto complainant.

0:43:350:43:36

Ukip Wales say it's reviewing

safeguarding procedures

0:43:360:43:39

within the party to ensure

the protection of all

0:43:390:43:43

who work with them.

0:43:430:43:44

Plaid Cymru said they had recently

put new infrastructure in place to

0:43:440:43:47

deal with complaints more quickly.

0:43:470:43:50

"We are also reviewing our internal

protocols and considering how

0:43:500:43:54

we can strengthen them."

0:43:540:43:55

But there is an indication

of the problem.

0:43:550:43:57

Plaid are dealing with several

accusations of bullying behaviour

0:43:570:44:01

by one of its elected members.

0:44:010:44:03

But eight months after saying

they were going to deal

0:44:030:44:07

with the complaint, it's

still nowhere near being concluded.

0:44:070:44:09

And two of the women who have made

the complaint told us

0:44:090:44:12

they are deeply unhappy

with the process, not least

0:44:120:44:14

about because on Tuesday,

they got this e-mail

0:44:140:44:19

from the party's chief executive

telling them part of the reason

0:44:190:44:21

it was taking so long

was because of the summer break

0:44:210:44:24

and the fact that the party had

to change its standing orders

0:44:240:44:27

to deal with the complaints.

0:44:270:44:29

It's been called a young democracy

and has been lauded for its family

0:44:290:44:32

friendly hours and having a greater

proportion of women among

0:44:320:44:35

its members than Westminster

but it's clear that Cardiff Bay

0:44:350:44:38

is far from immune

to the inappropriate

0:44:380:44:39

behaviour which has had

so much attention elsewhere.

0:44:390:44:46

Well, that's the situation.

0:44:460:44:47

But why and how does it

happen in Cardiff Bay?

0:44:470:44:51

Well, Cathy Owens has worked

at the very highest level

0:44:510:44:54

as a special advisor

to Rhodri Morgan and works

0:44:540:44:56

closely with AMs and

ministers as a lobbyist.

0:44:560:45:05

Well, I'm pleased that we're

actually talking about it now.

0:45:050:45:08

We have been talking about this

for a number of years.

0:45:080:45:12

We've made it clear for a number

of years now that it's been

0:45:120:45:18

prevalent here in Cardiff Bay.

0:45:180:45:21

Not just in Cardiff Bay, in Wales.

0:45:210:45:23

We're talking about women who work

across the political sphere Wales,

0:45:230:45:27

in Wales, at whatever level,

so, yes, it has been going on here.

0:45:270:45:30

We've been making it very

clear for some years

0:45:300:45:32

it's been going on here,

so yes it is time to talk about it

0:45:320:45:36

but we have been trying to talk

about it for quite some time.

0:45:360:45:39

Do you think you've been

ignored during that time?

0:45:390:45:41

Yes, absolutely we have and we've

made it pretty clear

0:45:410:45:45

that this has happened.

0:45:450:45:47

Parties have had complaints made,

where things have not happened.

0:45:470:45:54

That's absolutely clear and we've

made it clear to journalists

0:45:540:45:58

here that it's happened

here as well.

0:45:580:46:01

We took the opportunity

three years ago when...

0:46:010:46:02

When I say we, there is an informal

network of women, of course,

0:46:020:46:08

who work across different parties

and politics and I was very lucky

0:46:080:46:12

who work across different parties

in politics and I was very lucky

0:46:120:46:15

to start a business a few years ago

with Alison Goldsworthy

0:46:150:46:18

and Nerys Evans, and we took

the opportunity, I think when Alison

0:46:180:46:21

very bravely stood up and talked

about what happened to her to say

0:46:210:46:24

very clearly this was happening

in Wales and in fact,

0:46:240:46:26

what happened to Alison and other

women involved in the issue

0:46:260:46:29

regarding Lord Rennard,

happened to here in Wales.

0:46:290:46:34

We made that clear to people

so my concern has been simply a lack

0:46:340:46:38

of fluosity amongst some

of the media as well as really

0:46:380:46:40

an abject failure on the parties

to be able to tackle this very well.

0:46:400:46:44

Is it something that

you can say that you've got

0:46:440:46:46

personal experience of?

0:46:460:46:47

Yes, of course.

0:46:470:46:48

Absolutely.

0:46:480:46:49

Can you elaborate on that at all?

0:46:490:46:53

One experience I had very,

very early on in my career was,

0:46:530:46:58

looking back now, it sounds odd,

but the experience I had

0:46:580:47:03

was, I've lost my keys,

I need somewhere to stay.

0:47:030:47:05

You know, in a relationship

which was very distinct in terms

0:47:050:47:14

of power differences,

I was very early on in my career and

0:47:140:47:22

this was an elected representative.

0:47:220:47:23

I made very clear that nothing

was going to happen.

0:47:230:47:26

He's staying in the spare room.

0:47:260:47:27

And then, sometime later,

coming into my bedroom

0:47:270:47:29

and trying to get into my bed.

0:47:290:47:34

I've had a situation

where somebody's come into the taxi

0:47:340:47:37

that I'm going home in,

so, you know, this isn't

0:47:370:47:40

about my experiences,

this is about the experience

0:47:400:47:43

of women that we've worked

with over the last 20 years.

0:47:430:47:49

One of the former Assembly Members I

was talking to was saying

0:47:490:47:51

that the fact that the Assembly's

such a small institution makes it

0:47:510:47:54

so much more difficult,

because you see a man behaving

0:47:540:47:57

in a horrifically inappropriate

manner, but it's more difficult

0:47:570:48:07

because you know him.

0:48:070:48:12

because you know him.

0:48:120:48:16

You're friends with him.

0:48:160:48:18

Has that been your experience?

0:48:180:48:19

Is that how you see it as well?

0:48:190:48:21

That's not that different

from Westminster.

0:48:210:48:23

What's difficult is that this

is a political sphere.

0:48:230:48:25

It's so the power of it makes it

more difficult than say,

0:48:250:48:28

potentially in another industry.

0:48:280:48:29

You can't simply go to HR.

0:48:290:48:30

You've got to make a decision

about how far you're

0:48:300:48:32

going to take this.

0:48:320:48:34

You've got to have your parties,

because a lot of people

0:48:340:48:36

are working in parties,

you've got to have the competence

0:48:360:48:39

of the organisation to back you,

because they make political

0:48:390:48:41

decisions which are different from

those which are around safeguarding.

0:48:410:48:43

It's been difficult for journalists

you have to deal with as well

0:48:430:48:46

and one of your colleagues may

bravely go forward and said

0:48:460:48:49

this happened to her.

0:48:490:48:50

Of course it did and of course it's

happened to other women.

0:48:500:48:53

The point you were making

their about the HR side of things

0:48:530:48:56

The point you were making

there about the HR side of things

0:48:560:48:59

and that it is difficult

because these men are making

0:48:590:49:01

decisions about your career

and everything like that,

0:49:010:49:03

do you think these men know that?

0:49:030:49:04

Of course they do.

0:49:040:49:06

And feed off it?

0:49:060:49:07

Well, of course they do.

0:49:070:49:08

This isn't random men

flirting with women.

0:49:080:49:10

This is the situation

and I'd just like to say,

0:49:100:49:12

this is a small number of men.

0:49:120:49:14

It is a very, very

small number of men.

0:49:140:49:16

And, you know, I think it's

important to say as well,

0:49:160:49:18

if this is a story that becomes

about what happened on Friday,

0:49:180:49:21

then it would be doing

a great disservice...

0:49:210:49:23

Friday, Carl Sargeant as a Cabinet

minister being sacked

0:49:230:49:25

because of his personal conduct.

0:49:250:49:28

It would be doing a great disservice

to the women who worked in politics

0:49:280:49:31

in Wales over the last 20 years,

because it would be actually

0:49:310:49:34

missing the reality

of what is actually going on.

0:49:340:49:36

We are talking about

a small number of men.

0:49:360:49:38

We have a lot of allies

who are men as well,

0:49:380:49:41

who are very supportive

of what we do, trying

0:49:410:49:44

to raise our voices here but let's

not suggest a lot of other men don't

0:49:440:49:48

know what is going on as well.

0:49:480:49:49

Thankfully, we are talking

about a small number of men who have

0:49:490:49:52

used their positions

and are sexual predators.

0:49:520:49:57

They've used their positions

in politics knowing

0:49:570:50:00

that the parties will protect them.

0:50:000:50:03

This is not a party political issue.

0:50:030:50:06

It happens across all parties.

0:50:060:50:10

There are some parties

who culturally haven't quite learned

0:50:100:50:12

how to deal with this at all.

0:50:120:50:14

There are some parties that,

let's just say, get it right

0:50:140:50:17

about 50% of the time.

0:50:170:50:20

And there are some parties that just

abjectly awful at dealing with that.

0:50:200:50:23

So when you see that the party

leaders will be meeting

0:50:230:50:26

with Elin Jones, on Tuesday to move

on, what do they need to do and how

0:50:260:50:31

hopeful are you now that they'll

get to grips with that?

0:50:310:50:33

Firstly, if anyone of them around

that table say they didn't

0:50:330:50:36

know this was going on,

I would say to them,

0:50:360:50:38

hang on a minute.

0:50:380:50:40

If anyone of them say

that their parties are fine in terms

0:50:400:50:42

of the procedures they've got in,

oh yes, we've got new procedures

0:50:420:50:46

to deal with this -

hang on a minute.

0:50:460:50:48

That is absolutely not

the case and we know that

0:50:480:50:50

because we are testing those

procedures are right at this minute

0:50:500:50:53

and they are failing.

0:50:530:50:55

So, you know, also I think

what they'll be talking

0:50:550:50:58

about importantly is about having

a system within the Assembly

0:50:580:51:02

for people who work in that building

but that isn't enough.

0:51:020:51:05

These parties cannot

be let off the hook.

0:51:050:51:07

They have got to take responsibility

for it and the leaders in Wales have

0:51:070:51:10

got to take responsibility for it.

0:51:100:51:12

You can't have people leaving it

to the people in London,

0:51:120:51:14

saying we'll put some

guidance in place.

0:51:140:51:16

The party leaders in

Wales have got to take

0:51:160:51:18

responsibility for it as well.

0:51:180:51:22

responsibility for it as well.

0:51:220:51:28

responsibility for it as well.

0:51:280:51:28

Carwyn Jones reshuffled his

government at the end of the week,

0:51:350:51:40

with Jane Hutt and Carl Sargeant

leaving their posts. In came a raft

0:51:400:51:46

of new names, including bye knew

maybe, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas,

0:51:460:51:51

finally a minister after 43 years in

public life. Valerie Livingston

0:51:510:51:57

Jones B. Before we go on to that,

you have worked at the highest level

0:51:570:52:06

of working with government, and what

are your reflections on what you've

0:52:060:52:09

just heard?

An incredibly brave interview. She

0:52:090:52:15

is absolutely right to say that

there's a problem in Cardiff Bay.

0:52:150:52:19

This is the opportunity to tackle

it. Can't have words. We need

0:52:190:52:26

action. We need to make politics a

safe place for young women to work

0:52:260:52:30

and to build their careers based on

the talent is not on the

0:52:300:52:34

relationships before modern form.

And that meeting we mentioned, the

0:52:340:52:38

party leaders on Tuesday, it's easy

to say we're changing the procedures

0:52:380:52:44

but it's that culture which will be

a lot more stubborn, I'm assuming,

0:52:440:52:49

to judge.

The culture goes to the

heart of it. People going to

0:52:490:52:57

politics because of the belief and

it's that belief that leads to this

0:52:570:53:02

career for your personal life is so

closely linked to your professional

0:53:020:53:06

life. I think unpicking that and

putting into place professional

0:53:060:53:11

practices will be a challenge that

we can't shyly a la -- away from.

0:53:110:53:19

We've invited you to talk about the

Cabinet reshuffle. How much of a

0:53:190:53:24

surprise? There will be a reshuffle.

How much of a surprise, the comings

0:53:240:53:29

and goings, the new intake, who came

in as government ministers?

What are

0:53:290:53:37

your feelings? It wasn't a big

surprise. We've been waiting for

0:53:370:53:43

this show reshuffle to happen. When

Carwyn Jones formed his cabinet

0:53:430:53:49

after the 2016 election, they went a

huge number of new faces and this is

0:53:490:53:53

an opportunity to bring them in.

There are several to watch and they

0:53:530:54:01

are now in government 18 months into

the political careers.

We've got

0:54:010:54:07

Jeremy Miles, another of the new

intake, straightened the Cabinet. He

0:54:070:54:11

is the main legal officer for the

Welsh Government. Part of the fact

0:54:110:54:18

that he's overtaken everyone else?

Certainly, he's proven himself to be

0:54:180:54:24

a keen legal mind in the Assembly.

He asks highly technical questions

0:54:240:54:29

and understands that belief. A less

high-profile role than some of the

0:54:290:54:36

ministerial ones.

Carwyn Jones is to

be Consulate general. In a moment,

0:54:360:54:48

we discuss... He doesn't mind taking

on the challenge. Do we expect any

0:54:480:54:57

changes there in the way the Welsh

Government will be approaching the

0:54:570:55:01

changes, to local government, now

that's been given to Alun Davies?

0:55:010:55:04

The reform of local government was

driven forward by Leighton Andrews.

0:55:040:55:09

It has been put on the back burner

in recent months because Alun Davies

0:55:090:55:15

has had a lot on his plate with

Brexit and the budget.

Leighton

0:55:150:55:22

Andrews has said we're going to get

you down to eight or nine and Mark

0:55:220:55:27

Drakeford came in a lot more laid

back, and said let's work together,

0:55:270:55:32

let's see what we get. Do you think

we're going to go back to Leighton

0:55:320:55:40

Andrews or continue with the Mark

Drakeford style?

I think we'll see

0:55:400:55:44

more pushing from Alun Davies.

And

what does this tell us about Carwyn

0:55:440:55:49

Jones? We were speculating he might

do another year or two before he

0:55:490:55:56

stands down as First Minister. He

said recently he wants to serve the

0:55:560:56:01

full terms. Does this tell us

anything about his thinking on when

0:56:010:56:04

he might stand down?

I wonder if

bringing those newly elected

0:56:040:56:10

Assembly Members into the Cabinet

was giving them the exposure to

0:56:100:56:15

minister to approach -- portfolios,

before he stands down. It doesn't

0:56:150:56:19

seem to be on the cards at the

moment but he will have been First

0:56:190:56:23

Minister for ten years in May 2009,

which is a lengthy time in the top

0:56:230:56:28

job.

Are we surprised there wasn't a

Brexit Minister roll out there?

0:56:280:56:34

Would turn out and out Brexit

minister have helped?

I don't know.

0:56:340:56:41

It might have been a little more

clear-cut but what the signals are

0:56:410:56:45

is that Carwyn Jones sees Brexit

responsibilities to lie. It's partly

0:56:450:56:52

constitutional, partly financial. So

he's between himself and Professor

0:56:520:56:56

Drakeford.

0:56:560:56:57

Drakeford.

0:56:570:56:58

Ahead of Philip Hammond's Budget

in a couple of weeks,

0:56:580:57:00

the Welsh Government has

sent him its wish list.

0:57:000:57:02

In a nutshell, ministers want

a commitment from Westminster

0:57:020:57:04

to invest in infrastructure such

as the Swansea tidal

0:57:040:57:06

lagoon and other projects.

0:57:060:57:08

Well, the Finance Minister Mark

Drakeford joins me now.

0:57:080:57:17

We can come on in a moment to

discuss Philip Hammond but to go

0:57:270:57:34

back to what Cathy Owens were

saying, and you've worked closely

0:57:340:57:40

with, watched you make of what she

was saying?

I felt sick to the pit

0:57:400:57:46

of my stomach listening to that

interview with Cathy. It was a brave

0:57:460:57:51

interview and she went to the very

heart of government. I sat at a desk

0:57:510:57:58

close to her and she fought a good

fight on behalf of the government to

0:57:580:58:02

see so to hear some of their

personal experiences is shocking but

0:58:020:58:06

it also demonstrates as she said,

the need to get the most serious

0:58:060:58:10

grip on these circumstances. Nobody

should imagine that there isn't an

0:58:100:58:15

issue here that has to be dealt with

and next week will be very important

0:58:150:58:18

in making sure that happens.

Does it

to ring true to you what we heard

0:58:180:58:24

that it is tolerated, that a blind

eye was occasionally turns to

0:58:240:58:29

inappropriate behaviour? Is that

something that rings true with you?

0:58:290:58:32

It important to pick up a couple of

other things that Cathy said. She

0:58:320:58:38

said the fact that we have so many

women and women in prominent

0:58:380:58:42

positions as the semi has made a

difference. It is a different

0:58:420:58:46

institution to others but in any

place where power is at stake, any

0:58:460:58:52

organisation, there will be some

people who seek to exploit that and

0:58:520:58:57

if they are -- there are instances

at the Assembly, then they

0:58:570:59:03

absolutely have to be taken

seriously and systems have to be put

0:59:030:59:05

in place to make sure that they are

not tolerated if they have been in

0:59:050:59:10

the past. They must not be

tolerated.

The meeting we mentioned,

0:59:100:59:16

the power to reduce coming together

how important is it that there is

0:59:160:59:22

commitment to challenge in this kind

of behaviour?

There will be that

0:59:220:59:27

commitment there. I don't believe

the leadership of parties at the

0:59:270:59:30

Assembly, they will be anything

other than determined to make sure

0:59:300:59:34

that if we are at a particular

moment in which things that

0:59:340:59:38

previously have been below the

surface are coming through, and

0:59:380:59:41

rightly so. It's very important to

encourage anybody who has anything

0:59:410:59:45

that they need to say to come

forward and say that. I think that

0:59:450:59:49

will be taken very seriously by

party leaders and we'll be able to

0:59:490:59:53

see next week how they want to make

sure that things that may have been

0:59:530:59:56

tolerated in the past and quite

strongly, those things will not be

0:59:561:00:01

tolerated in the future.

This

morning, you've publish this letter

1:00:011:00:06

that you've written to Philip

Hammond, the Treasurer, outlining

1:00:061:00:12

what you'd like to see from the

budget. It is a wish list of we want

1:00:121:00:17

more, we want better, we want more

spent. Is that a realistic, given

1:00:171:00:22

that over the last few years, that

very much hasn't been forthcoming,

1:00:221:00:27

it hasn't been the style of UK

Government?

It's an important part

1:00:271:00:32

of the budget process. We get an

opportunity on the run up to the

1:00:321:00:36

budget on the 22nd November to make

the case for the way in which we

1:00:361:00:42

think important decisions made by

the Chancellor should be discharged

1:00:421:00:46

in relation to Wales. I have written

and I have been to the tragedy and

1:00:461:00:51

bat with my Scottish counterpart as

well. What we do is make a series of

1:00:511:00:57

point about the economy on the

whole, and then there's an

1:00:571:01:01

opportunity to identify some very

specific matters that are relevant

1:01:011:01:05

here in Wales.

If you've met with

officials and politicians there,

1:01:051:01:09

it's a realistic list so you've come

out and written off a huge list of

1:01:091:01:16

things that probably aren't going to

amount to anything?

My job is to

1:01:161:01:20

make sure UK ministers are entirely

aware of the point of view of the

1:01:201:01:26

national Assembly and things that

are important in Wales. Do I come

1:01:261:01:31

away feeling that? I've always had

the impact that I feel the need to

1:01:311:01:36

have. The answer is no. We have a

government in Westminster that has a

1:01:361:01:40

different set of beliefs and

priorities. I banged the table and

1:01:401:01:45

say now is the time to put an end to

austerity and lift the pick-up, and

1:01:451:01:49

be sure you borrow to invest. Do I

think that alongside everybody else

1:01:491:01:53

who's making their spines, I'm

guaranteed to win through? I don't

1:01:531:01:57

say that at all. But it is very

important to those points are made

1:01:571:02:01

forcefully on behalf of Wales.

You

talk about devolving air passenger

1:02:011:02:06

duty. So have your own Labour

members of Parliament been reluctant

1:02:061:02:14

to have that devolved. It's not all

the fault of the UK Government.

They

1:02:141:02:19

are in charge in Westminster. I

negotiate with them and say to them

1:02:191:02:24

things should be devolved to Wales

as it is to Scotland and Northern

1:02:241:02:29

Ireland and as they recommended

themselves, as it was this week

1:02:291:02:33

reinforced again by new research,

I'm making some very important

1:02:331:02:37

points and serious points to them

and that's exactly what they need to

1:02:371:02:40

do.

Thank you very much.

1:02:401:02:43

That's it for this week.

1:02:431:02:44

We're taking a short

break next Sunday.

1:02:441:02:46

Meanwhile don't forget

about our new political and current

1:02:461:02:51

affairs programme Wales Live

which begins this Wednesday

1:02:511:02:56

on BBC One Wales at 10.30pm.

1:02:561:02:57

But for now, diolch am wylio -

thanks for watching.

1:02:571:03:02

Time to go back to Sarah.

1:03:021:03:04

to support.

1:03:061:03:07

All right, and at that point

we have to end it there.

1:03:071:03:10

My thanks to Rosena and Andrew,

and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:101:03:13

It's been a tricky

week for Theresa May -

1:03:131:03:15

again, you might think.

1:03:151:03:16

She's lost a Cabinet minister

and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:161:03:19

which did little for party unity,

to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:191:03:22

vote on Brexit and yet more reports

of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:221:03:25

this time apparently over housing.

1:03:251:03:26

So, is the Prime Minister's time

in office going with a bang

1:03:261:03:29

or more of a whimper?

1:03:291:03:30

Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:301:03:31

and the entirely unscientific

Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:311:03:33

to Conservative-held Surrey,

to find out.

1:03:331:03:35

ALL:

Three, two, one.

1:03:351:03:39

# Ignite the light

and let it shine...#

1:03:391:03:45

It's a tale of lit fuses, plots,

conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:451:03:49

but enough of the recent goings

on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:491:03:52

it's firework night here

in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:521:03:56

does Theresa May have control

of her Government and her party?

1:03:561:03:59

Yes or no?

1:03:591:04:00

# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:001:04:05

# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:051:04:05

With all the scandals in Government

at the moment

1:04:051:04:07

and Brexit seems to be dragging on

a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:071:04:11

So, at the moment, I don't think

she is in control.

1:04:111:04:14

She's too many people sniping

at her back, really.

1:04:171:04:20

Do you think Theresa

May's in control?

1:04:201:04:22

I think she's in control.

1:04:221:04:23

She's in a good job

having a tough time.

1:04:231:04:26

No, I don't.

1:04:261:04:27

I think she's a mess.

1:04:271:04:28

Even when you read her body language

when she's being interviewed

1:04:281:04:31

by people, she doesn't

seem like she's in control.

1:04:311:04:33

I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:331:04:37

I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:391:04:43

I do think she's struggling but,

I still hope, still think she has

1:04:431:04:47

a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:471:04:50

The Queen is England's role.

1:04:501:04:52

It's her birth right.

1:04:521:04:54

She is England's role

of this country.

1:04:541:04:58

I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:581:05:00

I don't think there's anyone

who could do a better job.

1:05:001:05:04

I think she's had a bit of

a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:041:05:07

I think she could have done better.

1:05:071:05:08

The money's not going

to where it needs to go.

1:05:081:05:11

I think she should resign, really.

1:05:111:05:12

I feel a bit sorry

for her, actually.

1:05:121:05:15

I think she's been witch-hunted

a little bit.

1:05:151:05:17

She's doing her best.

1:05:171:05:20

With everything that's

going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:201:05:23

moment, I think the Conservative

Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:231:05:26

Very disappointed.

1:05:261:05:28

Well, you get bickering in all parts

not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:281:05:34

And that's just sort

of par for the course.

1:05:341:05:37

But I'm sure she'll

hold everybody together

1:05:371:05:39

despite the current difficulties.

1:05:391:05:41

The Tories weren't in control

when they had the referendum

1:05:411:05:44

in the first place for the euro.

1:05:441:05:46

We've had two years

of complete chaos.

1:05:461:05:52

Well, I seem to have

acquired a few new friends.

1:05:521:05:55

The oohs and ahs are

over and so the moodbox

1:05:551:05:58

and the result is...

1:05:581:06:02

No.

1:06:021:06:03

The majority of people

here in Guildford

1:06:031:06:04

don't think Theresa May

is in control.

1:06:041:06:07

CHEERING

1:06:071:06:11

That was Ellie with the entirely

unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:111:06:13

to Bushy Hill Junior School

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:131:06:20

Let's put

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:201:06:21

Let's put the

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:211:06:21

Let's put the Sorbol

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:211:06:21

Let's put the Sorbol question

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:211:06:21

Let's put the Sorbol question to

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:211:06:21

Let's put the Sorbol question to our

in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:211:06:22

Let's put the Sorbol question to our

panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:221:06:25

seasoned Westminster watchers. Is

Theresa May in control of her

1:06:251:06:28

Government at the moment or is all

of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:281:06:33

swimming around loosening her grip?

Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:331:06:37

All Prime Ministers have a degree of

control. They retain the power much

1:06:371:06:44

tat wrongage as we saw with her

reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:441:06:48

her MPs but she did it. You can't be

fully in control of these situations

1:06:481:06:54

in effectively what is a hung

Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:541:06:57

in the election she would have the

authority to do what she wanted. She

1:06:571:07:01

could float over something like

this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:011:07:05

say she's perfectly suited for it,

the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:051:07:09

goer, to sort it out. It is much

more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:091:07:12

think she will be able to get a full

grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:121:07:16

things that need to happen that will

happen. I remember with back to

1:07:161:07:21

basics and John Major, that equally

vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:211:07:25

basics about? It was still running

months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:251:07:30

minister having an affair. This is

different. I can see it will be

1:07:301:07:34

impossible for her to fully get to

grips with it.

Does it provide an

1:07:341:07:38

opportunity for Theresa May to be

seen to be taking really serious

1:07:381:07:42

action, trying to root out a bad

culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:421:07:45

get some political credit for it?

That opportunity was available to

1:07:451:07:50

her all of last week and she hasn't

taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:501:07:55

is the near complete breakdown in

discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:551:07:59

Tory Party. It is extraordinary you

have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:07:591:08:04

not supporting their colleagues.

Ministers and former ministers

1:08:041:08:07

giving interviews in which they slag

off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:071:08:11

an absolute unholy mess. There is no

sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:111:08:16

has any particular solution. I think

we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:161:08:19

her in terms of finding a solution.

How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:191:08:23

like this where you're talking about

apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:231:08:32

retrospective examination of

potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:321:08:35

longer too historic for somebody to

dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:351:08:38

or may not have happened to them. It

is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:381:08:42

being battered around by events.

Where does this story go next?

I

1:08:421:08:49

think the whip's office on every

party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:491:08:53

Democrats, SNP all have their own

whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:531:08:56

be the place of it really. This is

because, where do we draw the line?

1:08:561:09:02

Going forward what mechanisms are

put in place to top this helping

1:09:021:09:05

again. To take allegations

seriously, report them and

1:09:051:09:10

investigate them independently. Or

is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:101:09:14

into the past retrospective, who

knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:141:09:19

Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow

Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:191:09:24

the Labour Party leader know about

Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:241:09:28

promoted him? Theresa May is unable

to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:281:09:33

simply too weak. I asked this of

Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:331:09:38

not more front-foot the on this.

They said they would be if they

1:09:381:09:41

possibly could be. She's running a

minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:411:09:46

seen to be going after a witch-hunt

on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:461:09:50

goes on. Enof thebly what the whips

new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:501:09:59

knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did

the same thing on Andrew Marr.

They

1:09:591:10:08

are being precise about the fact

they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:081:10:13

Newton said she heard no allegations

about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:131:10:17

in charge of rather than rumours

about any other Tories.

Amber Rudd

1:10:171:10:24

say, I do not recognise the more

lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:241:10:29

less lurid once? So, this smells

very, very bad indeed.

Jeremy

1:10:291:10:33

Corbyn's going to have to answer

some of these questions as well?

1:10:331:10:40

Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red

herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:401:10:44

vote out for the Government

fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:441:10:47

They are not there, it is one of the

problems. They are not there to be

1:10:471:10:51

moral guides to these MPs. They are

there to win votes for the

1:10:511:10:55

Government or the opposition if that

becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:551:10:59

with MPs to make sure they get out

and vote. Of course they knew

1:10:591:11:03

virtually everything. But whether

they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:031:11:08

guard yawns in these situations, I

don't think they were. It was not

1:11:081:11:12

part of their job. Maybe you need

moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:121:11:16

whips.

Normally, less than

three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:161:11:21

what we'd been talking about.

Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:211:11:24

that's set for November 22nd, is

that an opportunity for the

1:11:241:11:27

Government to seize back control of

the story?

Philip Hammond may be

1:11:271:11:32

glad we're not spending too much

time talking about the budget. It

1:11:321:11:35

should be an opportunity for the

Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:351:11:39

a line under all of this. I think

one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:391:11:43

of this so-called scandal for the

Government to manage is knowing

1:11:431:11:47

quite how long it will run. In the

normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:471:11:51

steam after a couple of weeks. But

there are so many potential gayses

1:11:511:11:56

that could come out, it might run

longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:561:12:00

expenses scandal. But there is an

opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:001:12:03

the' again da. I just don't think

Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:031:12:08

he's a very caution Chancellor. At

the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:081:12:12

Theresa May's leadership is so weak

it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:121:12:18

do anything particularly dram attic

why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:181:12:23

budget where they will be hoping not

to make any mistakes.

You say there

1:12:231:12:27

is disagreement in the Cabinet about

what should be in the budget?

1:12:271:12:33

Disagreement between the Chancellor

and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:331:12:38

witch-hunt is hiding a huge story

which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:381:12:43

between Number Ten and number 11.

Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:431:12:46

bear to be in the same room with

each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:461:12:50

in the budget. It is coming down to

housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:501:12:54

be the centrepiece of the budget.

They have to get more houses built.

1:12:541:13:00

Philip Hammond wands that bee

deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:001:13:05

are borrow up to 50 billion

merchandise more for the Government

1:13:051:13:08

to build for themselves.

1:13:081:13:10

That's all for today.

1:13:101:13:11

There's no Sunday Politics

next weekend

1:13:111:13:13

while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:131:13:15

but I'll be back here at 11am

on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:151:13:18

Until then, bye bye.

1:13:181:13:22

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS