Browse content similar to 19/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning everyone, and welcome
to the Sunday Politics. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:39 | |
I'm Sarah Smith. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:41 | |
And this is your guide
to all the big stories that | 0:00:41 | 0:00:43 | |
are shaping politics this weekend,
and a few of the smaller ones too. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:47 | |
Philip Hammond is getting ready
to deliver his latest Budget | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
on Wednesday and he's not short
of advice - to spend more, | 0:00:50 | 0:00:53 | |
show restraint, even
to stop being an Eyore - | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
but can he change the direction
of the country and his government? | 0:00:55 | 0:01:01 | |
Conservative Party darling
Jacob Rees-Mogg has | 0:01:01 | 0:01:02 | |
some advice of his own. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:04 | |
He thinks the Chancellor
is being far too gloomy about Brexit | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
- he joins me live to explain why. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:11 | |
The former Leave campaign leader,
Gisela Stuart, will be here debating | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
with pro-EU campaigner
Alastair Campbell, after taking | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
a trip to her native Germany
to speak to businesses | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
about Brexit. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
The programme, as the government is | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
rocked | 0:01:30 | 0:01:31 | |
The programme, as the government is
rocked by allegations of bullying, | 0:01:31 | 0:01:32 | |
will be asking one of his Labour AM
is what should happen next. And | 0:01:32 | 0:01:38 | |
Michael Sheen on what he thinks
about how realtors run and his | 0:01:38 | 0:01:43 | |
possible political ambitions beyond | 0:01:43 | 0:01:44 | |
All that coming up in the programme. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
And with me for for all of it,
three journalists who've promised | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
not to show off like Michael Gove
by using any long economicky words - | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
although I'm not sure they really
know that many anyway - | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
it's Tom Newton Dunn,
Gaby Hinsliff and Iain Martin. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
Let's take a look at the big
political stories making the news | 0:02:05 | 0:02:08 | |
this Sunday morning,
and as you might expect there's | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
plenty of speculation
about what might or not might be | 0:02:10 | 0:02:12 | |
in Philip Hammond's Budget. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
The Chancellor is promising a big
investment in new technology, | 0:02:15 | 0:02:17 | |
including driverless cars -
which could be on the road by 2021. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
He's been interviewed
in the Sunday Times, | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
where he talks about plans to reach
the target of building | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
300,000 homes every year,
or the equivalent of a city | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
the size of Leeds. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:31 | |
That paper speculates that he's
attempting to turn from "fiscal | 0:02:31 | 0:02:35 | |
Phil" into "hopeful Hammond"
as he tries to set out | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
a vision for the country,
not just a list of numbers. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
The Sunday Telegraph thinks that
Mr Hammond is planning to offer | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
a pay rise to nurses as part
of a bid to take on Labour. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
But that hasn't impressed
Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. | 0:02:46 | 0:02:49 | |
He's spoken to a number of papers
and is calling for an emergency | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
budget to invest in public services
and help struggling households. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
So that's a taste of what you might
hear on Wednesday and Mr Hammond | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
and Mr McDonnell have both been
appearing this morning | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
on the Andrew Marr Show. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
I think Britain has a very
bright future ahead of it, | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
and we have to embrace
the opportunities that | 0:03:07 | 0:03:10 | |
a post-Brexit world will offer. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:12 | |
They will be opportunities that
are based on huge change, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:14 | |
huge technological evolution. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
It's not always going to be easy,
but the British people have shown | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
time and time again that we're up
for these challenges. | 0:03:21 | 0:03:23 | |
For many people out there,
this is a depression. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
We've had people whose wages
have been cut by 10%. | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
Nurses, for example. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:32 | |
We've had people who are now... | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
1.25 million food parcels handed out
in the sixth richest | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
country in the world. | 0:03:39 | 0:03:40 | |
That's what I call a recession
for large numbers of people. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:48 | |
We will be talking about Labour and
their economic policies in a moment, | 0:03:48 | 0:03:54 | |
but let's start with what we might
expect from the budget. We will talk | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
to our panel of political observers.
Philip Hammond is under pressure to | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
set out a bold vision and reset the
government's programme. Can we | 0:04:02 | 0:04:07 | |
expect that? No, we can't. We have
heard enough from the Chancellor | 0:04:07 | 0:04:12 | |
across various broadcast and his
article in the Sunday Times. I think | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
we will not be getting a bold
budget. His precise words short... A | 0:04:16 | 0:04:25 | |
short time ago were a balanced
budget. Some Tory hearts will think. | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
They desperately want something to
go out and shout about, something to | 0:04:28 | 0:04:33 | |
capture people's imagination, and do
big and bold things, like how on | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
earth are they going to build those
new 300,000 houses a year? There are | 0:04:37 | 0:04:43 | |
good reasons why he has chosen what
appears to be a pretty staid, | 0:04:43 | 0:04:50 | |
Conservative budget, and that is
that they are probably unable to get | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
anything bold through Parliament.
His capital is so low among Tory | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
MPs. If you have a minority
government, it is tricky. We have | 0:04:58 | 0:05:07 | |
seen ministers on programmes like
this in the last few weeks putting | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
in the bids for what they would like
spending on, whether it be payment | 0:05:10 | 0:05:15 | |
for nurses or parliament. Would he
struggled to get something radical | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
through the Commons? Big ideas cost
money. That's the problem. Bold | 0:05:19 | 0:05:24 | |
ideas are controversial. In some
ways, Tory MPs are asking their | 0:05:24 | 0:05:31 | |
Chancellor to do the impossible.
Government is already doing | 0:05:31 | 0:05:34 | |
something big and bold, which is
Brexit. That has implications for | 0:05:34 | 0:05:40 | |
how much money is available, how
many risks you want to take with | 0:05:40 | 0:05:44 | |
everything else. What is crucial is
that he demonstrates a reputation | 0:05:44 | 0:05:49 | |
for competence. The reputation that
the Conservative government has for | 0:05:49 | 0:05:54 | |
economic competence, that many
people prefer them to Labour on the | 0:05:54 | 0:05:59 | |
issue of economic competence. The
worst thing he could do is come up | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
with a big, bold idea that
unravelled quickly. What they | 0:06:02 | 0:06:08 | |
absolutely don't want is to come up
with an exciting idea that falls | 0:06:08 | 0:06:12 | |
apart three days after the budget.
He is under pressure from | 0:06:12 | 0:06:17 | |
Brexiteers, who are suspicious of
him. Does he have to offer them | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
something? Part of his problem is he
has to offer so many different | 0:06:20 | 0:06:25 | |
people different things. This is
Philip Hammond trying to be and | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
dynamic. It is hard to tell
sometimes. At least in theoretical | 0:06:28 | 0:06:37 | |
terms. His longer-term difficulty is
that, if you look at the economic | 0:06:37 | 0:06:46 | |
cycle, we are getting to a point
where we are probably overdue, if | 0:06:46 | 0:06:51 | |
you put Brexit to one side, overdue
some kind of correction or downturn, | 0:06:51 | 0:06:56 | |
if you look what has happened to
asset prices globally. What will be | 0:06:56 | 0:07:02 | |
worrying for the Treasury is, just
as everyone is saying we should turn | 0:07:02 | 0:07:07 | |
on the taps and build this or that,
we might be at the top of a cycle, | 0:07:07 | 0:07:13 | |
and the Treasury will want to lose
something in the armoury in terms of | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
probably growing the deficit if
there are economic difficulties in | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
the next two years, and then there
is Brexit as well. It sounds | 0:07:21 | 0:07:26 | |
impossible. I think so. Talking to
his friends and colleagues over the | 0:07:26 | 0:07:31 | |
last few days, he had to make a
call, which was precisely how much | 0:07:31 | 0:07:36 | |
can I get away with, with my
political capital being as low as it | 0:07:36 | 0:07:42 | |
is, with the mixed problems he had
at the last budget, and a lot of the | 0:07:42 | 0:07:48 | |
party disliking his approach to
Brexit. He is damned if he is, | 0:07:48 | 0:07:53 | |
damned if he doesn't. Universal
Credit, we are expecting a reduction | 0:07:53 | 0:08:02 | |
in the time it takes to wait,
business rates, affected by high | 0:08:02 | 0:08:09 | |
inflation... I think we will see a
problem fixing budget which will | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
probably do quite a lot of important
spadework in many areas. We will | 0:08:14 | 0:08:19 | |
pick up on some of this later in the
programme. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:24 | |
Let's speak now to the Conservative
MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, this week | 0:08:24 | 0:08:27 | |
he helpfully launched an alternative
"budget for Brexit" and advised | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
the Chancellor to be less gloomy
about the consequences | 0:08:29 | 0:08:31 | |
of leaving the EU. | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
Thank you for joining us. Your
alternative budget is pretty | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
radical. Almost half corporation
tax, Cap Stamp duty to help the | 0:08:39 | 0:08:48 | |
London market. It seems you are
advocating the opposite from what we | 0:08:48 | 0:08:53 | |
will hear from your Chancellor on
Wednesday. There are two parts to | 0:08:53 | 0:08:57 | |
the proposals I suggested. One is
that we should show that after we | 0:08:57 | 0:09:01 | |
have left the European Union, the UK
is open to the rest of the world. It | 0:09:01 | 0:09:07 | |
is about opening up to the rest of
the world. Secondly, looking at the | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
modelling that has been done by the
Treasury and some other forecasters, | 0:09:11 | 0:09:16 | |
which has been so comprehensively
wrong. The forecasts made about what | 0:09:16 | 0:09:20 | |
would happen after Brexit have
turned out to be hopelessly false. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:28 | |
The team at Cardiff University have
done some modelling based on the | 0:09:28 | 0:09:33 | |
classical economic principles and
what happens if you move to free | 0:09:33 | 0:09:36 | |
trade that would be very positive
for the economy. You are predicting | 0:09:36 | 0:09:41 | |
a Brexit dividend of £135 billion,
which sounds fantastic. Why are you | 0:09:41 | 0:09:49 | |
right, and everybody else, including
the Bank of England and the | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
Institute for Fiscal Studies, why
are they all wrong? It depends on | 0:09:53 | 0:09:57 | |
the type of modelling. The modelling
that have been done by the Treasury | 0:09:57 | 0:10:02 | |
have been based on gravity models,
which work on the basis of the | 0:10:02 | 0:10:06 | |
nearness of the market and the size
of the economy you are trading with. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
These have been wrong in the past.
They predicted that if we joined the | 0:10:10 | 0:10:15 | |
euro, trade would grow by 300%. That
was then revised down to 200%, but | 0:10:15 | 0:10:22 | |
it is fantasyland. The model I am
working on, by Sir Patrick Minford, | 0:10:22 | 0:10:29 | |
who has a record of getting these
things right. He was right about the | 0:10:29 | 0:10:37 | |
exchange rate mechanism, right about
the euro. Being right in the past | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
doesn't mean you are right about the
future. Why do you think the | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
Treasury will not pick up the same
numbers, if this is so obvious to | 0:10:46 | 0:10:50 | |
you? I think the Treasury was
humiliated by the errors in its | 0:10:50 | 0:10:55 | |
forecast prior to Brexit, and is
trying to defend its position. The | 0:10:55 | 0:11:01 | |
short-term economic consequences of
a vote to leave was one of the most | 0:11:01 | 0:11:04 | |
dishonest documents to come out of
the Treasury, purely a piece of | 0:11:04 | 0:11:10 | |
political propaganda. They are
wounded by that and sticking to the | 0:11:10 | 0:11:13 | |
same script, rather than looking at
other forecasts and other experts. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:18 | |
You think the governor of the Bank
of England is an enemy of Brexit, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
and it sounds like you think the
Treasury is opposed to it. As the | 0:11:22 | 0:11:27 | |
Chancellor fallen under their spell
as well, and been persuaded to be an | 0:11:27 | 0:11:32 | |
enemy of Brexit? I have admiration
the Chancellor, but George Osborne, | 0:11:32 | 0:11:38 | |
his predecessor, was the architect
of Project Fear. He was too close to | 0:11:38 | 0:11:43 | |
the Bank of England and lost his
independence. That is what needs to | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
change. It is an opportunity in the
budget for Philip Hammond to show he | 0:11:47 | 0:11:53 | |
is putting aside the Treasury's
mistakes in the past. It is very | 0:11:53 | 0:11:58 | |
encouraging what he is saying this
morning, about a more positive | 0:11:58 | 0:12:03 | |
approach to Brexit. Lord Lawson has
accused Philip Hammond of being very | 0:12:03 | 0:12:08 | |
close to sabotage on Brexit. He says
we need a can-do man at the Treasury | 0:12:08 | 0:12:15 | |
and not a prophet of doom. I think
that Philip Hammond is an | 0:12:15 | 0:12:19 | |
exceptionally intelligent man, a
very thoughtful man. It is not a bad | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
thing to have a Chancellor who is
serious minded and steady, rather | 0:12:23 | 0:12:28 | |
than one who is a showman and uses
the Exchequer to interfere in | 0:12:28 | 0:12:35 | |
absolutely everything. I have a lot
of confidence in the Chancellor. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
When you launched your budget for
Brexit, you said the government has | 0:12:39 | 0:12:44 | |
to deliver the £350 million for the
NHS that was delivered during the | 0:12:44 | 0:12:50 | |
referendum, even though you didn't
think that promise should have been | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
made. Is that something they now
need to deliver wrong? It is. This | 0:12:53 | 0:12:58 | |
only happens once we have left.
Politicians have to recognise that | 0:12:58 | 0:13:03 | |
voters don't look at the small print
of electoral policies. If you put | 0:13:03 | 0:13:11 | |
£350 million on the side of a bus
and say it may be available for the | 0:13:11 | 0:13:16 | |
NHS, it is reasonable for people to
think that is a promise. Brexit was | 0:13:16 | 0:13:22 | |
won by the Leave campaign, so it it
is important that they deliver on | 0:13:22 | 0:13:28 | |
that promise. Politicians must keep
faith with voters and deliver on | 0:13:28 | 0:13:32 | |
implied promises, as well as ones
that are set out in detail. The | 0:13:32 | 0:13:37 | |
Cabinet will move on to talk about
the Brexit bill this week, and we | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
understand they may need to come up
with more money to satisfy EU | 0:13:41 | 0:13:46 | |
demands. The more money spent on
that is less money available for | 0:13:46 | 0:13:49 | |
things like spending on the NHS. Are
you worried about the size of the | 0:13:49 | 0:13:55 | |
exit bill? You have your finger on
the important point. The government | 0:13:55 | 0:14:02 | |
will have to choose whether to give
lots of money to the European Union, | 0:14:02 | 0:14:06 | |
or whether to spend money on UK
public services, and that will be | 0:14:06 | 0:14:11 | |
part of the negotiation. On all
these issues, it comes down to | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
choice is the government makes. I
would encourage the government to | 0:14:15 | 0:14:20 | |
choose our own domestic public
services rather than expensive | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
schemes in continent or Europe. Why
are you advocating that the | 0:14:24 | 0:14:28 | |
government should spend up to £2.5
billion on a no deal scenario? | 0:14:28 | 0:14:38 | |
It is important that we are ready to
leave in the event of no deal. If we | 0:14:38 | 0:14:43 | |
left with no deal we would on
current figures still be saving the | 0:14:43 | 0:14:49 | |
remains of 18 billion so we would be
saving 15 and a half billion against | 0:14:49 | 0:14:55 | |
paying for the financial framework.
To show we're ready on day one would | 0:14:55 | 0:15:00 | |
be money well spent and most would
be needed any way. We need to have | 0:15:00 | 0:15:07 | |
new customs arrangements in place
even if it is not for a no deal | 0:15:07 | 0:15:12 | |
situation. There are suggestions
that the Government might back down | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
on the idea of putting the time and
date of leaving the EU on the face | 0:15:15 | 0:15:19 | |
of the bill. Would you be Exxon
certained if that was -- concerned | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
if that was remove prd the bill? It
is in Article 50, unless Article 50 | 0:15:23 | 0:15:31 | |
is extended by the Council of Europe
we leave on 20th March 2019 and it | 0:15:31 | 0:15:41 | |
makes accepts that should be the
same in -- sense that should be in | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
same in domestic law. But that is a
secondary concern from my point of | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
view. It is important that we leave
on that date. Stay there if you | 0:15:48 | 0:15:53 | |
would. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:55 | |
We're joined in the studio
by the former minister | 0:15:55 | 0:15:57 | |
Stephen Hammond. | 0:15:57 | 0:15:58 | |
He's no relation to the Chancellor,
but he is a member | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
of the Treasury Select Committee
and he's one of the Tory MPs named | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
as "Brexit mutineers"
by the Daily Telegraph | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
this week - lucky him. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:08 | |
I'm assured you're no relation to
the Chancellor. Let's just pick up | 0:16:08 | 0:16:13 | |
on what Jacob Rees Mogg was saying.
How important is it to you as a | 0:16:13 | 0:16:22 | |
rebel that the Government does put
the date on. I agree with Jacob it | 0:16:22 | 0:16:27 | |
is in the Article 50 process, the
key reason it is important is the | 0:16:27 | 0:16:32 | |
negotiations look like they're going
to be tricky and longer than we | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
expected and it may well be that we
are still negotiating up until March | 0:16:36 | 0:16:43 | |
2019. We could have a short couple
of weeks period of extension. Why do | 0:16:43 | 0:16:48 | |
harm to the economy by falling out
on a precise time? If those | 0:16:48 | 0:16:53 | |
negotiations need to be extended.
They won't go on for more than a | 0:16:53 | 0:16:57 | |
couple of weeks, because there will
be elections in Europe in June 2019 | 0:16:57 | 0:17:01 | |
and there is no chance of a new
commission or Parliament dealing | 0:17:01 | 0:17:06 | |
with this. Giving it flexibility and
with this flexibility the government | 0:17:06 | 0:17:13 | |
said it wants flexibility in
negotiations, why give all the | 0:17:13 | 0:17:16 | |
advantage to the other side? Part of
that was evidenced yesterday by | 0:17:16 | 0:17:22 | |
somebody suggesting they will ask
for the Margaret Thatcher rebate to | 0:17:22 | 0:17:26 | |
be suspended. That is as a result of
putting the date on the bill. You | 0:17:26 | 0:17:31 | |
did not agree with the Brexit
committee and think it is important | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
that we set the date and time? I
think it is perfectly reasonable to | 0:17:34 | 0:17:39 | |
set the date and time and I think
these negotiations fill the time | 0:17:39 | 0:17:44 | |
available. The United States and
Australia agreed a free trade deal | 0:17:44 | 0:17:49 | |
between April 2003 and February
2004. These things don't need to be | 0:17:49 | 0:17:55 | |
interm Knabl if both sides want to
agree. I think the British | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
electorate would be very concerned
if nearly three years after the vote | 0:17:58 | 0:18:04 | |
to leave, we still hadn't left. I
think most people expected that we | 0:18:04 | 0:18:07 | |
would have left by now. The
negotiations realistically to get | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
through the approval of the European
Parliament and so on need to be | 0:18:11 | 0:18:15 | |
completed by at the end of next
year, going up to the last minute I | 0:18:15 | 0:18:20 | |
don't think is real is tick. To move
on to talk about a trade deal and | 0:18:20 | 0:18:24 | |
getting that done, the EU need to
agree to move on and we need to | 0:18:24 | 0:18:31 | |
settle the divorce, cabinet are
going to be talking about the amount | 0:18:31 | 0:18:33 | |
that needs to be spent on that,
Stephen what manned, are you happy | 0:18:33 | 0:18:40 | |
for the Government to offer more? I
hope that the Government will stick | 0:18:40 | 0:18:44 | |
to the Florence speech in terms of
ensuring that we fulfil our | 0:18:44 | 0:18:49 | |
liabilities and obligations. I'm not
clear exactly whether that is 20 | 0:18:49 | 0:18:54 | |
billion or 40 billion and I'm not
sure the government is. If part of | 0:18:54 | 0:18:58 | |
the divorce bill is then some
settlement for getting the trade | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
deal, we will need to examine that
carefully. Jacob Rees Mogg, is this | 0:19:02 | 0:19:08 | |
that might spark another war in the
party if the cabinet suggest they're | 0:19:08 | 0:19:13 | |
prepared to pay more? I think we
need to go back to what you said, | 0:19:13 | 0:19:19 | |
that the - the EU said they want us
to settle the money first. The | 0:19:19 | 0:19:29 | |
Government doesn't need to follow
that. They need our money. If we | 0:19:29 | 0:19:33 | |
don't pay any money for the final 21
months of the framework, the EU has | 0:19:33 | 0:19:41 | |
about 20 billion pounds gap in its
finances and it has no legal | 0:19:41 | 0:19:46 | |
requirement to borrow. So it
insolvents or the Germans and the | 0:19:46 | 0:19:50 | |
others pay more. So our position on
money is very strong and we | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
shouldn't fall into the trap of
thinking just because Mr Barnier | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
said it it is as if he has received
tablets of stone like Moses, he has | 0:19:59 | 0:20:04 | |
not. There is a sense that the
Government feels a mo generous offer | 0:20:04 | 0:20:13 | |
would set a good tone, the kind of
approach that Jacob Rees Mogg | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
suggests would not make for smooth
relations. It probably wouldn't. But | 0:20:17 | 0:20:22 | |
we have to be clear what we are
paying for and what we are getting. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:27 | |
No one is suggesting we should hand
over money without proper scrutiny. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:33 | |
It may be appropriate to put money
to facilitate international trade to | 0:20:33 | 0:20:38 | |
secure jobs. We have to be careful
about the analysis about what the | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
scale and size of Brexit dividend is
and the size of payments will be. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:48 | |
You mustn't confuse gross and net
and there is disagreement about some | 0:20:48 | 0:20:55 | |
of the numbers. On that, Jacob Rees
Mogg in his budget for Brexit | 0:20:55 | 0:21:01 | |
suggests in five years time we would
have a 135 billion Brexit bonus. Do | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
you think it is real is tick. He is
using some analysis that has some | 0:21:06 | 0:21:13 | |
flaws. It is predicting a price drop
in the United Kingdom of 10%. Tariff | 0:21:13 | 0:21:20 | |
drops will only be 3 or 4%. It is
predicting huge productivity gains, | 0:21:20 | 0:21:27 | |
the likes of which we have not seen
in 20 years. Thirdly, despite his | 0:21:27 | 0:21:32 | |
view on modellers there is evidence
that they weren't and if you go into | 0:21:32 | 0:21:37 | |
the detail of the analysis, some of
the data is 14 years out of date. | 0:21:37 | 0:21:44 | |
Jacob Rees Mogg, you're being
hopelessly optimistic? I don't think | 0:21:44 | 0:21:49 | |
that right. I think the fall in
prices comes because you make the | 0:21:49 | 0:21:54 | |
economy more competitive and you
take away tariffs which reduces the | 0:21:54 | 0:21:58 | |
price of food by 20%. That is a big
reduction. Bear in mind that the | 0:21:58 | 0:22:05 | |
biggest tariffs hit food, clothing
and foot wear that, harm the poorest | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
in society the most. The gains from
productivity come from is in | 0:22:09 | 0:22:16 | |
additional tariffs. Leading to other
saving and further investment I | 0:22:16 | 0:22:24 | |
think the modelling done by the
professor is as good as modelling | 0:22:24 | 0:22:27 | |
can be. That doesn't mean it is
infallible. The failure of gravity | 0:22:27 | 0:22:34 | |
model is well known. Michael Gove
was accused of auditioning for the | 0:22:34 | 0:22:41 | |
job of Chancellor by using long
words. Do you know any good long | 0:22:41 | 0:22:47 | |
economic words? I don't think that
we want to get into this type of | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
business actually. I think all
Conservatives and Steven and I very | 0:22:51 | 0:22:55 | |
much agree on this, want to show as
united a front as we can manage. | 0:22:55 | 0:23:01 | |
There are differences on some
aspects of policy, but in terms of | 0:23:01 | 0:23:05 | |
individuals we want to stand
together and support the best | 0:23:05 | 0:23:07 | |
interests of the government. Thank
you. | 0:23:07 | 0:23:13 | |
Brexit Secretary David Davis
was in Berlin this week trying | 0:23:13 | 0:23:15 | |
to win the support of business
leaders there for a comprehensive | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
free trade deal with the EU. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
He warned them against putting
'politics above prosperity' | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
and reportedly got a bit
of a frosty reception. | 0:23:23 | 0:23:27 | |
Well, the former Labour MP
Gisela Stuart was one of the leaders | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
of the Vote Leave referendum
campaign. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
We travelled with Gisela to Germany
to meet the business leaders | 0:23:32 | 0:23:34 | |
she says will help secure a good
trade deal for the UK. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
Here's her film. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:41 | |
I was born and brought up
in this part of Germany, | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
and although I've lived in the UK
for the past 40 years, | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
and represented the constituency
of Birmingham and Edgbaston for 20 | 0:23:53 | 0:23:58 | |
years, my family still live here,
and I've kept many links. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
I was chair of Vote Leave,
and together with only a handful | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
of other Labour MPs,
we campaigned to leave | 0:24:08 | 0:24:11 | |
the European Union because we
thought the country would be | 0:24:11 | 0:24:13 | |
better off outside. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:15 | |
It's hard to remember now, but back
in the 1970s, when we joined | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
the European Economic Community,
people thought that by joining | 0:24:18 | 0:24:22 | |
the club we would see the kind
of economic miracle Germany | 0:24:22 | 0:24:27 | |
experienced in the '70s back home. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
The "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder"
would come to Britain. | 0:24:29 | 0:24:31 | |
But, of course, it didn't. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:36 | |
But, of course, it didn't. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:36 | |
Within a few short years
of the devastation of World War II, | 0:24:38 | 0:24:41 | |
Germany had emerged as
the largest economy in Europe. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
Germany's extraordinary
success is down to | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
the pragmatism of its business. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
German Mittelstand is family
dominated, forward-thinking, | 0:24:50 | 0:24:55 | |
long-term thinking, reliability,
are very important values. | 0:24:55 | 0:25:01 | |
Changing moods on a political
landscape and changing frameworks | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
are toxic for our way of doing
business, and we want | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
that to go away. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:12 | |
that to go away. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:14 | |
German business is not given
to making big political statements | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
out of step with government policy,
but talk to those in decision-making | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
positions, and it is clear
that they want to secure a good deal | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
with the United Kingdom. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:27 | |
BMW employs almost 90,000
people here in Germany, | 0:25:27 | 0:25:30 | |
and exports just under
1 million cars annually. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:34 | |
The UK is a vital market. | 0:25:34 | 0:25:39 | |
What we are really seeking right now
is more clarity, more certainty, | 0:25:39 | 0:25:43 | |
because in our cycle of investment,
cycle of development, | 0:25:43 | 0:25:48 | |
it's about a seven-year or so period
that we look at, | 0:25:48 | 0:25:52 | |
but we are now, of course, starting
to think about what comes next, | 0:25:52 | 0:25:56 | |
and what we need to see now
is what is going to be | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
the trading relationship,
how are the logistics going to look, | 0:25:59 | 0:26:02 | |
what is going to be
the requirements for people | 0:26:02 | 0:26:04 | |
moving across the continent? | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
Because all of these things
are important to us today. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
And, by the way, they will be just
as important tomorrow. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
Berlin is well aware that
if the European Commission | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
is allowed to put up trade barriers
against Britain, it will be | 0:26:15 | 0:26:19 | |
German business, German consumers
and German employees | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
who will suffer. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:25 | |
TRANSLATION: I think it's very
important that we complete | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
the first phase successfully. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
The first phase of the negotiations,
which looks at the financial | 0:26:30 | 0:26:33 | |
consequences of Great Britain
leaving the EU. | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
And then it's not a question
of punishment payments. | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
It's about when you are part
of a multilayer, contractual | 0:26:39 | 0:26:42 | |
obligation and you want to leave
that, then of course it takes | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
a whole lot of obligations
which you have to deal with, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:48 | |
so both sides are satisfied and can
live with the consequences. | 0:26:48 | 0:26:57 | |
It isn't everyone's interests
for the UK to part on good terms. | 0:26:57 | 0:27:02 | |
Of course there was going to be
upset when the UK voted to leave, | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
but creating uncertainty over
the terms of UK's exit will simply | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
have a disruptive effect
on exports to UK markets. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:14 | |
Far better to have a sensible,
amicable negotiation that results | 0:27:14 | 0:27:17 | |
both sides being able to trade
together and work | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
together post-Brexit. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:24 | |
together post-Brexit. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:26 | |
Markus Krall is managing
director of Goetzpartners, | 0:27:26 | 0:27:28 | |
and heads the Financial
Institution Industry Group. | 0:27:28 | 0:27:30 | |
Is it true to say that,
if we negotiate Brexit well, | 0:27:30 | 0:27:35 | |
then a good Brexit can actually
strengthen the United Kingdom, | 0:27:35 | 0:27:37 | |
the European Union and Germany? | 0:27:37 | 0:27:38 | |
It's absolutely true. | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
I think that this
is about two things. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:44 | |
One, about proving that
free trade is possible | 0:27:44 | 0:27:49 | |
between a European Union that is
smaller and a former member country. | 0:27:49 | 0:27:52 | |
If you don't prove that free
trade is possible there, | 0:27:52 | 0:27:55 | |
then the question becomes,
what is Europe standing for? | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
Number two is, I also
believe the free trade, | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
free market and democratic and less
bureaucratic approach that Britain | 0:28:04 | 0:28:08 | |
has chosen as the path
into the future is a role | 0:28:08 | 0:28:11 | |
model for Europe. | 0:28:11 | 0:28:14 | |
The time has come both
for the United Kingdom | 0:28:14 | 0:28:17 | |
and for the EU to be more clear
about what kind of | 0:28:17 | 0:28:19 | |
deal we can achieve. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
Both sides need to be bold. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:24 | |
As long as we remain open to free
trade and sensible co-operation, | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 | |
we can arrive at something that
will benefit both sides. | 0:28:27 | 0:28:32 | |
But one thing's obvious -
if we are an open and free trading | 0:28:32 | 0:28:36 | |
economy, we've got one big
cheerleader on our side, | 0:28:36 | 0:28:38 | |
and that is German business. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:43 | |
and that is German business. | 0:28:43 | 0:28:44 | |
That was Gisela Stuart
setting out her case | 0:28:44 | 0:28:46 | |
and we'll be hearing
from the opposite side | 0:28:46 | 0:28:48 | |
of the argument in the coming weeks. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:50 | |
Gisela Stuart joins us in the studio
now, as does Alastair Campbell. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:53 | |
He used to work for Tony Blair
in Number 10, set up | 0:28:53 | 0:28:56 | |
the New European Newspaper
to campaign against Brexit, | 0:28:56 | 0:28:57 | |
and is so pro-European that at this
year's Labour conference | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
he was heard playing Ode
to Joy on the bagpipes. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:02 | |
Welcome both of you. | 0:29:02 | 0:29:07 | |
Welcome both of you. | 0:29:07 | 0:29:07 | |
We will start with your point in the
film, that you think the German | 0:29:07 | 0:29:12 | |
business once the EU to offer the UK
a generous deal because it is in | 0:29:12 | 0:29:17 | |
their interests, yet the president
of the German equivalent of the CBI | 0:29:17 | 0:29:21 | |
said that defending the single
market must be the priority for the | 0:29:21 | 0:29:26 | |
EU, and another says that the
cohesion of the remaining member | 0:29:26 | 0:29:32 | |
states remains the highest priority.
The president of the CBI just after | 0:29:32 | 0:29:38 | |
the referendum said that it would be
in nobody 's interest to introduce | 0:29:38 | 0:29:43 | |
tariffs and trade barriers. On the
UK side, I don't think there's a | 0:29:43 | 0:29:51 | |
full understanding that economic
interests are incredibly important, | 0:29:51 | 0:29:55 | |
that they are trying to cover
economic interests on the cohesion | 0:29:55 | 0:30:02 | |
of the 27. I think different
economic interests will raise the | 0:30:02 | 0:30:06 | |
head of different countries. The
German auto industry is as important | 0:30:06 | 0:30:14 | |
as the financial sector is here. The
banking crisis is far from over, but | 0:30:14 | 0:30:20 | |
the big riffs which were going on is
that the E U is losing its second | 0:30:20 | 0:30:26 | |
biggest net contributor. Countries
like Germany want a deal with the UK | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
that is a free open market. There
are other tensions in the EU that | 0:30:30 | 0:30:37 | |
wants to become more protectionist,
and that is a bad thing. Looking at | 0:30:37 | 0:30:41 | |
the film there with the Jacob
Rees-Mogg interview. No matter what | 0:30:41 | 0:30:49 | |
side of leave you are, it is
delusional and all driven by wishful | 0:30:49 | 0:30:54 | |
thinking. You could find a
businessman who says Brexit will be | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
good for Germany. The vast bulk of
British businesses think this is a | 0:30:58 | 0:31:02 | |
disaster, as do the vast bulk of
European businesses. One of the | 0:31:02 | 0:31:07 | |
delusions on which they ran their
campaign is the idea that they need | 0:31:07 | 0:31:11 | |
us more than we need them. That is
not true. Be you self about £80 | 0:31:11 | 0:31:18 | |
billion more in goods and services
into the UK than we do to them, and | 0:31:18 | 0:31:23 | |
Germany has one of the biggest
deficits. It is in their interest. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:27 | |
Of course it is, but it is a myth
that they need us more than we need | 0:31:27 | 0:31:33 | |
them. The damage that will be done
to us, even with a good deal. Let's | 0:31:33 | 0:31:39 | |
be frank, where these negotiations
are, Theresa May is either going to | 0:31:39 | 0:31:45 | |
end up with a bad deal and dumber or
no Deal. A bad deal is bad, and a no | 0:31:45 | 0:31:52 | |
deal is a catastrophe. You are
setting up ideas that which were not | 0:31:52 | 0:31:59 | |
there to begin with and knocking
them down. Delusional. 35 billion, | 0:31:59 | 0:32:06 | |
the Brexit bonus. If we had a
referendum, it was a democratic | 0:32:06 | 0:32:11 | |
decision. I know you don't like it
and that a lot of business would | 0:32:11 | 0:32:14 | |
have preferred to stay with the
status quo. We have had the | 0:32:14 | 0:32:19 | |
referendum. Undermining political
institutions is in no one's | 0:32:19 | 0:32:24 | |
interests. It is functioning
democracies which lead to economic | 0:32:24 | 0:32:30 | |
stability. Theresa May fought an
election Inc on a hard Brexit that | 0:32:30 | 0:32:37 | |
was rejected. As we heard from BMW,
there is uncertainty for business. | 0:32:37 | 0:32:50 | |
There will be elections, European
elections, in 2019. There will be a | 0:32:50 | 0:32:55 | |
change of the Commission and the
parliament. We have a narrow window | 0:32:55 | 0:33:00 | |
to implement the mandate for the
referendum which Parliament voted | 0:33:00 | 0:33:04 | |
for. So rather than you undermining
this country, why don't you work | 0:33:04 | 0:33:11 | |
together to get the best deal?
Because we totally disagree. You | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
don't want a good deal? I'm in
favour of a good deal, and I could | 0:33:15 | 0:33:21 | |
give them some advice as to how they
get a good deal. First, you have a | 0:33:21 | 0:33:27 | |
cabinet that has an agreed strategy.
18 months in, they don't have that. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:33 | |
I am not undermining a deal. I am
continuing to pose questions about | 0:33:33 | 0:33:38 | |
what they are trying to do and how
they are trying to do it. This is | 0:33:38 | 0:33:44 | |
democracy. Democracy is the ability
for Parliament, which is not doing | 0:33:44 | 0:33:49 | |
its job properly, and the public, to
keep scrutinising, and if they want | 0:33:49 | 0:33:53 | |
to change their mind, having the
right to do that. You were trying to | 0:33:53 | 0:34:00 | |
encourage the Taoiseach yesterday to
play hardball with the UK. I am on | 0:34:00 | 0:34:04 | |
the side of the UK, and I am worried
that if we go down the path that we | 0:34:04 | 0:34:10 | |
are being taken down, and Theresa
May and Boris Johnson and the rest | 0:34:10 | 0:34:14 | |
of them, this shambolic path, we are
going to do fundamental, lasting | 0:34:14 | 0:34:19 | |
damage to the country we love. I
don't care about the Civil Aviation | 0:34:19 | 0:34:24 | |
Authority. I care about Britain. --
I don't care about the European | 0:34:24 | 0:34:30 | |
Union. If every lorry going into the
UK today was stopped for just two | 0:34:30 | 0:34:38 | |
minutes, we would create an instant
17 mile traffic jam. These people | 0:34:38 | 0:34:44 | |
just don't care... I am not these
people! Let us not conflate... You | 0:34:44 | 0:34:54 | |
either decide that you are
implementing a democratic decision | 0:34:54 | 0:34:58 | |
of a referendum that was called and
over 17 million voted. You will not | 0:34:58 | 0:35:04 | |
stop me debating it. Just as Nigel
Farage... Stop talking about Nigel | 0:35:04 | 0:35:12 | |
Farrell Raj. Vote Leave was not
Nigel Farage. There is no desire in | 0:35:12 | 0:35:23 | |
Germany to punish the United
Kingdom. They are behaving | 0:35:23 | 0:35:28 | |
reasonably. There is a battle of
protectionism and free market going | 0:35:28 | 0:35:33 | |
on. If we implement this properly,
give businesses the kind of | 0:35:33 | 0:35:38 | |
incentives they want, we can get a
good deal. So you want a bad deal? | 0:35:38 | 0:35:45 | |
You are driven by wishful thinking.
Gisela Stuart, you are saying that | 0:35:45 | 0:35:51 | |
business will intervene to prevent
things like tariffs being put in | 0:35:51 | 0:35:55 | |
place? They are leaving it a bit
late to put pressure on. You will | 0:35:55 | 0:36:00 | |
find that business is laying out the
kind of things they need to get | 0:36:00 | 0:36:03 | |
those deals. I can find as much
fault with the speed of the | 0:36:03 | 0:36:08 | |
progress, but what I really do
resent is that you are actually | 0:36:08 | 0:36:13 | |
encouraging other countries to
undermine... Know I am not! I spoke | 0:36:13 | 0:36:21 | |
out in support of the Irish
Taoiseach because I spent a lot of | 0:36:21 | 0:36:25 | |
time with Tony Blair and his team on
the Good Friday Agreement. The | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
people who are driving this hard
Brexit without thinking it through, | 0:36:28 | 0:36:32 | |
still no answer on how you do Brexit
in our island without a hard border. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:38 | |
I think the Irish Taoiseach is right
to call out the government on the | 0:36:38 | 0:36:46 | |
incompetence and the fact they have
not thought it through. You accept | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
the result of the referendum and the
fact that we will be leaving the EU? | 0:36:50 | 0:36:56 | |
I accept the result of the
referendum, but I do not accept that | 0:36:56 | 0:37:01 | |
the country will definitely leave,
because the country is entitled to | 0:37:01 | 0:37:05 | |
change its mind. As the chaos and
costs mount, the public is entitled | 0:37:05 | 0:37:10 | |
to change its mind and will change
its mind. There is no evidence at | 0:37:10 | 0:37:16 | |
the moment. Come out with me! Allow
me to finish the sentence. There is | 0:37:16 | 0:37:24 | |
a changing of mind happening, a
crystallisation. Unlike you, I have | 0:37:24 | 0:37:30 | |
fought five elections and I have won
five elections. I have probably | 0:37:30 | 0:37:36 | |
spoken to more people like you. You
may do, I'm just saying, come out on | 0:37:36 | 0:37:41 | |
the road with me... 40% of the
population in the middle just want | 0:37:41 | 0:37:47 | |
us to get on with it. What that film
showed is that if you want to make | 0:37:47 | 0:37:53 | |
it a self-fulfilling prophecy that
it's a disaster, which I don't. I | 0:37:53 | 0:37:59 | |
want to implement a deal that is
good for British jobs. The rest of | 0:37:59 | 0:38:04 | |
the world is changing in terms of
technology. Currently, Germany | 0:38:04 | 0:38:12 | |
hasn't even got a government, and
nobody is laughing about that. And | 0:38:12 | 0:38:17 | |
they are stable without a
government! Let's leave it there. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:20 | |
Hello and welcome to
the Sunday Politics Wales. | 0:38:28 | 0:38:30 | |
In a few minutes, Michael Sheen
gives us his take on how Wales | 0:38:30 | 0:38:33 | |
is run and how he thinks
it could be better. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
He tells us whether a career
as a professional politician | 0:38:36 | 0:38:39 | |
is on the cards. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:42 | |
But first, it's been
an astonishing week in Welsh | 0:38:42 | 0:38:45 | |
politics, with claims of a toxic
culture within Carwyn Jones' | 0:38:45 | 0:38:48 | |
government in the past. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:50 | |
Issues were dealt with at the time,
says the First Minister, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:53 | |
but that's not quite
what he said at the time. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
And what about the important matter
of how women are treated | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
in politics in Wales? | 0:38:59 | 0:39:02 | |
The Chair of the Assembly's
Standards Committee has warned that | 0:39:02 | 0:39:05 | |
far from being any kind of instant
solution, it will "take | 0:39:05 | 0:39:07 | |
time" to address issues
of inappropriate behaviour. | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
Jayne Bryant also told this
programme it's "important | 0:39:10 | 0:39:12 | |
to get this right". | 0:39:12 | 0:39:15 | |
In a moment, we'll be asking two AMs
where we go from here. | 0:39:15 | 0:39:18 | |
First, Cemlyn Davies
has this report. | 0:39:18 | 0:39:24 | |
As accusations of bullying dominate
its discussions in the Assembly, it | 0:39:24 | 0:39:30 | |
was perhaps ironic that this
anti-bullying exhibition should be | 0:39:30 | 0:39:34 | |
on display in the Senedd this week.
The First Minister has faced tough | 0:39:34 | 0:39:39 | |
questions about the culture within
his administration after former | 0:39:39 | 0:39:43 | |
senior government collects spoke of
the toxic poisonous atmosphere they | 0:39:43 | 0:39:47 | |
say existed back in 2014. Others who
were part of carbon Jones's Cabinet | 0:39:47 | 0:39:54 | |
at the time have dismissed the
claims. At one woman who is not | 0:39:54 | 0:39:59 | |
surprised by the allegations is this
woman. She was a Labour councillor | 0:39:59 | 0:40:05 | |
in Cardiff but resigned in 2014,
just two years after being elected. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:11 | |
It plays on my mind and had a big
factor in me becoming disillusioned | 0:40:11 | 0:40:15 | |
with politics, I don't want to go on
to the specific details, but the | 0:40:15 | 0:40:21 | |
outcome of that incident was I
locked myself in my office in County | 0:40:21 | 0:40:27 | |
Hall and that the store remained
locked for the rest of the day. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
Siobhan told me that the incident
related to intimidation and she was | 0:40:30 | 0:40:35 | |
unhappy at the way Welsh Lib. But
are concerned at the time. Would you | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
say you were bullied? There was a
culture of bullying. It can be | 0:40:39 | 0:40:44 | |
subtle, it doesn't have to be a big
stand-off between two people. A lot | 0:40:44 | 0:40:49 | |
of the time it can go unnoticed by
the person doing the bullying and | 0:40:49 | 0:40:54 | |
the victim, that is why it is so
difficult to accept the back culture | 0:40:54 | 0:40:57 | |
is happening. In a statement, Welsh
Labour claims. | 0:40:57 | 0:41:02 | |
The recent allegations of sexual
harassment and bullying have raised | 0:41:21 | 0:41:24 | |
difficult questions about the way we
do politics in Wales and on | 0:41:24 | 0:41:30 | |
Wednesday the Presiding Officer met
with the chair of the Assembly's | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
standards committee and the party
leaders to discuss what needs to be | 0:41:33 | 0:41:37 | |
done. They agreed to develop our
respect and dignity policy which | 0:41:37 | 0:41:42 | |
will spell out clearly that
inappropriate behaviour has no place | 0:41:42 | 0:41:45 | |
here. It is really, really important
that we create an environment, a | 0:41:45 | 0:41:55 | |
safe environment for everybody who
works here and I'm keen that we do | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
we can to make sure that it is as
clear and fair as possible. Is it a | 0:41:59 | 0:42:03 | |
cultural thing within the Assembly,
within politics, and is it something | 0:42:03 | 0:42:09 | |
that can be addressed quickly or
will it take a long time to address? | 0:42:09 | 0:42:13 | |
With some issues it is cultural, not
just in politics but throughout her | 0:42:13 | 0:42:19 | |
society, and I think that will take
time. What I would say about | 0:42:19 | 0:42:24 | |
anything that we do as a standards
committee it is really important we | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
get this right. But we can control
and the structures that we can | 0:42:28 | 0:42:32 | |
control, we need to take the time to
make sure we get this right because | 0:42:32 | 0:42:36 | |
we owe it to everybody involved that
we do. HR experts agree that a joint | 0:42:36 | 0:42:41 | |
approach is the way forward. There
needs to be something that is | 0:42:41 | 0:42:46 | |
cross-party, that there is a
standard amount across all parties | 0:42:46 | 0:42:49 | |
that people can be held accountable
to. Making sure that they have the | 0:42:49 | 0:42:56 | |
right levels of the HR support and
training the people in people | 0:42:56 | 0:43:01 | |
management positions, leadership
positions, so they understand their | 0:43:01 | 0:43:05 | |
responsibilities in taking this
issue seriously. There is a | 0:43:05 | 0:43:09 | |
recognition in Cardiff Bay that more
must be done to support staff, but | 0:43:09 | 0:43:13 | |
what impact have the recent
allegations here and in Westminster | 0:43:13 | 0:43:16 | |
had done young people like the
students who are considering a | 0:43:16 | 0:43:20 | |
career in the field? We have to wake
up and make the decision, I engaged | 0:43:20 | 0:43:26 | |
enough and passionate enough about
this? Will go into an industry that | 0:43:26 | 0:43:30 | |
I know it is likely that this will
happen, it is possible? Now that the | 0:43:30 | 0:43:36 | |
cases are coming out now, it is a
lesson to me on what to do if I come | 0:43:36 | 0:43:42 | |
into that situation. We should take
the positive from it and hope that | 0:43:42 | 0:43:46 | |
the next system will be better than
the one that comes before it. | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
Personally, I think it makes me and
others considering going into | 0:43:50 | 0:43:56 | |
politics to get into politics, so
that if we get into politics in the | 0:43:56 | 0:44:00 | |
future we are a new generation I can
do things better. Have you misled | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
the Assembly, First Minister?
Absolutely not. Back in the here and | 0:44:04 | 0:44:13 | |
now, after allegations that Carwyn
Jones might have misled the Assembly | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
over possible bullying in the past,
the calls for greater scrutiny into | 0:44:16 | 0:44:23 | |
his actions have only increased the
pressure on the First Minister. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
We should point out
that we asked the First Minister | 0:44:27 | 0:44:29 | |
to come on the programme,
but were told he wasn't available. | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
A further request to
interview any minister | 0:44:32 | 0:44:34 | |
from the Welsh Government
was also declined. | 0:44:34 | 0:44:35 | |
However, we're delighted
to welcome the Labour | 0:44:35 | 0:44:37 | |
AM for Swansea East,
Mike Hedges, and the Plaid Cymru | 0:44:37 | 0:44:39 | |
AM Simon Thomas, who's
in our studio in Aberystwyth. | 0:44:39 | 0:44:44 | |
Thank you both. Just looking, there
is so much to talk about, but just | 0:44:44 | 0:44:55 | |
looking at the week that Carwyn
Jones has had, in terms of the | 0:44:55 | 0:45:01 | |
claims about the toxic culture of
bullying, undermining in the past in | 0:45:01 | 0:45:06 | |
the Welsh Government, what do you
make of those claims? I am | 0:45:06 | 0:45:11 | |
surprised. I am surprised if people
knew this three years ago nothing | 0:45:11 | 0:45:16 | |
was done. If you have a complaint
then you can go to the permanent | 0:45:16 | 0:45:20 | |
Secretary, you can go to the First
Minister. Also, the Labour Party has | 0:45:20 | 0:45:24 | |
its own rules over bullying. The
Labour Party will take action | 0:45:24 | 0:45:32 | |
against members to stop bullying.
Some form of report was written but | 0:45:32 | 0:45:38 | |
never shown to anyone. If we take
Leighton Andrews at its word for | 0:45:38 | 0:45:44 | |
that, does it surprise you that
nothing would have been done about | 0:45:44 | 0:45:47 | |
it? At that stage Leighton Andrews
did not go to the Labour Party and | 0:45:47 | 0:45:52 | |
say that there was bullying going
on, I have taken it up at the First | 0:45:52 | 0:45:58 | |
Minister, I am unhappy with his
response on it enquiry. We all work | 0:45:58 | 0:46:04 | |
under Labour Party rules. When you
hear this kind of thing coming out | 0:46:04 | 0:46:09 | |
now, I was talking to an MP last
week he said that old vendettas are | 0:46:09 | 0:46:14 | |
being settled here, and that has
been strongly denied by Leighton | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
Andrews, but what is your view on
why this is coming out now? The last | 0:46:17 | 0:46:23 | |
conversation I had with Leighton
Andrews he told me I wasn't | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
supportive enough of the First
Minister! If you put ten people in a | 0:46:26 | 0:46:33 | |
room there will be quarrelling
taking place. If they are all | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
competing for advancement and there
will be more competition amongst | 0:46:37 | 0:46:41 | |
them. Having said that, if people
are being bullied they have a route | 0:46:41 | 0:46:46 | |
to take. They can go to the First
Minister, the permanent Secretary, | 0:46:46 | 0:46:50 | |
or they could go to the Labour Party
nationally and complain about it and | 0:46:50 | 0:46:55 | |
the Labour Party will engage in
enquiry. I was watching the | 0:46:55 | 0:46:59 | |
statements about this in the chamber
and some of your colleagues in the | 0:46:59 | 0:47:03 | |
Labour group were seriously unhappy
when they were hearing what Carwyn | 0:47:03 | 0:47:08 | |
Jones was saying. What is truly put
the colleagues? I have not heard | 0:47:08 | 0:47:13 | |
anybody say anything about it. The
great success for some of them is to | 0:47:13 | 0:47:18 | |
be able to talk about crying at the
moment, there is a huge upset over | 0:47:18 | 0:47:23 | |
the loss of Carl Sargeant. He was
loosely liked across the chamber who | 0:47:23 | 0:47:29 | |
was locked in the Labour group. It
is absolutely true in this case. He | 0:47:29 | 0:47:35 | |
always had time for people. He
wasn't one of those people who when | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
they walk down the corridor examined
the floor so people wouldn't talk to | 0:47:39 | 0:47:46 | |
him. He always had time for
everybody and people are really | 0:47:46 | 0:47:50 | |
upset. I don't think people have
moved on that's next stage yet, they | 0:47:50 | 0:47:55 | |
are still in the grieving stage. On
the things that we have been hearing | 0:47:55 | 0:48:01 | |
in the Senedd this week over what
Carwyn Jones might have said back in | 0:48:01 | 0:48:07 | |
2014. He said on Tuesday that issues
have been addressed at the time, | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
although in 2014 he said no
accusations have been made. That has | 0:48:11 | 0:48:15 | |
led to some of your colleagues, but
mainly the Conservatives, has Carwyn | 0:48:15 | 0:48:21 | |
Jones misled the Assembly. The two
statements are incompatible with | 0:48:21 | 0:48:27 | |
each other and needs to be an
estimation of the nature of the | 0:48:27 | 0:48:32 | |
allegations back in 2014 and how
they were dealt with at the time. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
Most of us assume that the
allegations referred to are the ones | 0:48:35 | 0:48:40 | |
that Leighton Andrews and Steve
Jones have referred to publicly. | 0:48:40 | 0:48:44 | |
There is a body of evidence that
something happened in 2014 that was | 0:48:44 | 0:48:49 | |
directed to the First Minister, but
he did something about it but we | 0:48:49 | 0:48:52 | |
don't know what, but he denied it at
the time. Because he denied it at | 0:48:52 | 0:48:57 | |
the time other people perhaps being
bullied would not have felt | 0:48:57 | 0:49:01 | |
confident and coming forward. That
is the problem with the culture that | 0:49:01 | 0:49:04 | |
then gets colder bullying culture.
Is not that there aren't avenues to | 0:49:04 | 0:49:09 | |
bring things forward, it is
difficult to do so in a context | 0:49:09 | 0:49:12 | |
where many of us in politics regard
colleagues as part of our extended | 0:49:12 | 0:49:17 | |
family in and that is not per
nothing that we talk about the | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
Labour family or the Plaid Cymru
family. A spokesman for Carwyn Jones | 0:49:21 | 0:49:25 | |
has said it was something similar to
bullying, not bullying that was | 0:49:25 | 0:49:30 | |
being discussed at the time. Is the
wording here very important or more | 0:49:30 | 0:49:36 | |
is at the spirit of the thing that
is important? I think we should | 0:49:36 | 0:49:40 | |
focus on the spirit of the thing and
the culture that allows people to | 0:49:40 | 0:49:43 | |
speak openly and honestly. When they
hear wording like that, AM as a very | 0:49:43 | 0:49:52 | |
experienced lawyer, he is
experienced in dancing on the head | 0:49:52 | 0:49:55 | |
of a pin around precise use of
wording, and I don't think that is | 0:49:55 | 0:49:59 | |
sufficient any more to address the
serious problems. The Conservatives | 0:49:59 | 0:50:04 | |
have asked for a special enquiry, is
that that anything you would be | 0:50:04 | 0:50:08 | |
supporting? I am open minded as to
how we go forward. They worked your | 0:50:08 | 0:50:13 | |
support on that. Would you support
but they are calling for? You have | 0:50:13 | 0:50:21 | |
put your finger on the problem. It
is not just the opposition that can | 0:50:21 | 0:50:27 | |
demand this, Labour have to have for
this. I have not discussed that with | 0:50:27 | 0:50:32 | |
my colleagues but am sure we will
only return to the Assembly on | 0:50:32 | 0:50:37 | |
Tuesday, but I think it is important
that we have an independent | 0:50:37 | 0:50:41 | |
adjudicator of the ministerial code.
The problem at the moment is any | 0:50:41 | 0:50:45 | |
complaint made about the First
Minister is decided by the First | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
Minister. By clearly is not robust
enough nor does it give confidence | 0:50:49 | 0:50:52 | |
in the system where complaints are
taken seriously. The two aspects | 0:50:52 | 0:50:59 | |
need to be examined. I agree with
the Conservatives that they need to | 0:50:59 | 0:51:04 | |
be an assembly examination of what
the First Minister has said and | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
done, whether by committee or other
proceedings, but we have the | 0:51:07 | 0:51:12 | |
knowledge that there needs to be
some sort of independent scrutiny of | 0:51:12 | 0:51:17 | |
the First Minister does. The problem
for Plaid Cymru, especially over | 0:51:17 | 0:51:22 | |
talks of bullying, it has been eight
months since a series of claims of | 0:51:22 | 0:51:26 | |
bullying was made against at Plaid
Cymru elected member yet here we are | 0:51:26 | 0:51:30 | |
nearly nine months on and no kind of
enquiry has taken place in Plaid | 0:51:30 | 0:51:36 | |
Cymru. The accusation Jura levelling
that Labour could be put to Plaid | 0:51:36 | 0:51:41 | |
Cymru, couldn't they? Yes, and that
member has been the site -- that | 0:51:41 | 0:51:52 | |
member has been suspended. I don't
know much about these allegations. I | 0:51:52 | 0:51:58 | |
understand that the national
executive considers these yesterday. | 0:51:58 | 0:52:00 | |
I know that the need to pass a
series of amendments, they are | 0:52:00 | 0:52:10 | |
designed to have a robust procedure
in place to deal with this. We find | 0:52:10 | 0:52:15 | |
that we were wanting in Rome
procedures, but it doesn't mean that | 0:52:15 | 0:52:17 | |
the don't have at process in place
to deal with this night. The death | 0:52:17 | 0:52:25 | |
of Carl Sargeant has the run
everything into turmoil, but in the | 0:52:25 | 0:52:28 | |
week leading up to that there was
talk about in Cardiff Bay about how | 0:52:28 | 0:52:34 | |
women are treated in politics. Is
there a concern that that has been | 0:52:34 | 0:52:38 | |
overlooked, that has been forgotten
and an important issue isn't being | 0:52:38 | 0:52:42 | |
addressed? I dumping it has been
forgotten. My female colleagues will | 0:52:42 | 0:52:46 | |
make sure it will not be forgotten.
If people are being treated badly, | 0:52:46 | 0:52:52 | |
people are being sexually harassed,
then that is a very serious thing to | 0:52:52 | 0:52:56 | |
happen and we need action to take
part in it. I don't spend time in | 0:52:56 | 0:53:02 | |
the Assembly outside working hours.
I live in Swansea, I'm in the race | 0:53:02 | 0:53:08 | |
to get to my car to get home as soon
as possible. Others like Simon who | 0:53:08 | 0:53:13 | |
are in Cardiff on Monday to Thursday
may well see things happening | 0:53:13 | 0:53:20 | |
outside that I don't. The party
leaders met with Elin Jones to look | 0:53:20 | 0:53:27 | |
at how you go ahead with this and
one of the things they were looking | 0:53:27 | 0:53:31 | |
at is the penalties for AM when the
act inappropriately. At the moment | 0:53:31 | 0:53:36 | |
it is a slap on the wrist. Does that
need to be strengthened, that maybe | 0:53:36 | 0:53:41 | |
at AM be faced with suspension if it
is proven they have acted | 0:53:41 | 0:53:47 | |
inappropriately? Certainly. They
should be suspended. It is | 0:53:47 | 0:53:51 | |
unfortunately don't have a method by
which we can remove them from the | 0:53:51 | 0:53:55 | |
Assembly, depending on what people
have done. Council, for example, if | 0:53:55 | 0:54:01 | |
you get a six-month sentence, had a
suspended or not suspended, you | 0:54:01 | 0:54:05 | |
automatically lose your seat on the
council. I would like to see exactly | 0:54:05 | 0:54:11 | |
the same in the Assembly. Yes, they
need century and reviewed to see | 0:54:11 | 0:54:15 | |
people suspended and there are
actions that people have done that | 0:54:15 | 0:54:22 | |
have led to century went suspension
would have been better. The | 0:54:22 | 0:54:28 | |
Assembly's standards Commissioner
will not be looking at the parties | 0:54:28 | 0:54:31 | |
procedures when it comes to dealing
with claims of harassment or | 0:54:31 | 0:54:37 | |
inappropriate behaviour. Would you
welcome some of the external coming | 0:54:37 | 0:54:42 | |
in and looking at Plaid Cymru's
rules and so on? Yes, I would | 0:54:42 | 0:54:46 | |
welcome that. All parties need to
remain independent, but I think | 0:54:46 | 0:54:51 | |
afresh and independent light cast
over the rules and regulations would | 0:54:51 | 0:54:56 | |
be welcomed by any party that takes
these issues seriously. I understand | 0:54:56 | 0:55:01 | |
that Plaid Cymru has slipped for
external people to come and look at | 0:55:01 | 0:55:06 | |
our rules and regulations. I support
Mike hedges when he just talked | 0:55:06 | 0:55:10 | |
about the sanctions against
misbehaving by assembly members. We | 0:55:10 | 0:55:15 | |
had an assembly member a couple of
terms ago who assaulted an ambulance | 0:55:15 | 0:55:19 | |
worker but was allowed to remain in
the Assembly. I think that was a | 0:55:19 | 0:55:23 | |
time when we should have taken
firmer action. Thank you both for | 0:55:23 | 0:55:28 | |
your time this morning. | 0:55:28 | 0:55:29 | |
Thank you both for your
time this morning. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:31 | |
He may be known to millions
as one of the most | 0:55:31 | 0:55:33 | |
talented actors around,
but these days Michael Sheen | 0:55:33 | 0:55:35 | |
is almost as well known
for his forays into Welsh politics. | 0:55:35 | 0:55:38 | |
This week he was in Merthyr
at a lecture for the Learning | 0:55:38 | 0:55:41 | |
and Work Institute,
where he re-asked, "Who | 0:55:41 | 0:55:42 | |
speaks for Wales?" | 0:55:42 | 0:55:44 | |
It's obviously an important question
in terms of the development | 0:55:44 | 0:55:46 | |
of devolution and other issues,
not least of all Brexit. | 0:55:46 | 0:55:48 | |
So when I caught up with him
before his talk, I began | 0:55:48 | 0:55:51 | |
by asking him what points
he was trying to make. | 0:55:51 | 0:56:00 | |
The Raymond Williams lecture, and
Raymond Williams's work, his | 0:56:00 | 0:56:07 | |
Internat channel -- international
reputation wasn't really based on | 0:56:07 | 0:56:09 | |
what it will about whales, but
specifically for this lecture I have | 0:56:09 | 0:56:14 | |
been reading everything he did write
about wheels and what he did write | 0:56:14 | 0:56:18 | |
was incredibly influential. One of
the pieces that he wrote in 1971 was | 0:56:18 | 0:56:23 | |
called who speaks for Wales? I have
taken that as my starting point. | 0:56:23 | 0:56:28 | |
What I find so fascinating about
reading his work is that the talked | 0:56:28 | 0:56:32 | |
about how it is the past and the
present relate to each other that is | 0:56:32 | 0:56:36 | |
most telling about the culture. In
looking at things like Welsh | 0:56:36 | 0:56:41 | |
identity, Welsh history and politics
now you have to go back to the past, | 0:56:41 | 0:56:46 | |
you have to state within the context
of the past and see how those two | 0:56:46 | 0:56:50 | |
things come together. What elements
of the past that you think most... | 0:56:50 | 0:56:55 | |
Has that ability to ship where we
are now? The work that I have been | 0:56:55 | 0:57:00 | |
doing over the last few years
wheels, visiting people, seeing | 0:57:00 | 0:57:04 | |
projects going on in communities,
talking to people in the Welsh | 0:57:04 | 0:57:08 | |
Government and different
organisations, I have got the | 0:57:08 | 0:57:11 | |
opportunity because of my small
amount of celebrity. I have an | 0:57:11 | 0:57:17 | |
opportunity to meet lots of
different types of people. One of | 0:57:17 | 0:57:20 | |
the things I have come away with is
a sense of infrastructure or an | 0:57:20 | 0:57:26 | |
institutional framework that is a
little bit delicate. It is not quite | 0:57:26 | 0:57:31 | |
as developers could have been, not
when you go to places like Scotland. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:36 | |
In looking at why that is the case,
all you have to do is start going | 0:57:36 | 0:57:41 | |
back into history and you see that
there have been moments of since the | 0:57:41 | 0:57:44 | |
Roman invasion where the beginnings
of something the beginnings of a | 0:57:44 | 0:57:49 | |
nation state, or at least the first
steps towards that, start to emerge | 0:57:49 | 0:57:54 | |
time and time again and are stopped
at a certain point. By the time you | 0:57:54 | 0:58:06 | |
do get to Henry VIII and the acts of
union something changes | 0:58:06 | 0:58:12 | |
fundamentally there and Wales is a
simulated into England's. For Wales, | 0:58:12 | 0:58:20 | |
see England, that famous
Encyclopaedia 1888 entry. So, there | 0:58:20 | 0:58:29 | |
is a reason why there is a certain
kind of difference between what we | 0:58:29 | 0:58:35 | |
have in Wales now and what was in
Scotland. Scotland had a monarchy, | 0:58:35 | 0:58:41 | |
we didn't. Scotland had a parliament
long before we have an assembly. | 0:58:41 | 0:58:44 | |
There is an list -- an institutional
framework that was not there, a | 0:58:44 | 0:58:50 | |
history of that. When you look at
things like the first time we have | 0:58:50 | 0:58:54 | |
the referendum about assembly powers
in 1979, 12% of our electorate voted | 0:58:54 | 0:59:02 | |
to have that. It was a resounding
refusal to start the process of | 0:59:02 | 0:59:07 | |
having your own powers. Then you
think, what changed between 1979 and | 0:59:07 | 0:59:13 | |
1997 estimate the Thatcher
government, everything that happened | 0:59:13 | 0:59:16 | |
in the South Wales valleys areas
around heavy industry and seeing how | 0:59:16 | 0:59:22 | |
vulnerable position the country
could be in. Even then in 1997 it | 0:59:22 | 0:59:26 | |
was less than 1%, just over half a
percent difference. I find that | 0:59:26 | 0:59:31 | |
fascinating. Looking Brexit, in
terms of the history of the | 0:59:31 | 0:59:36 | |
relationship between Wales and
England, it is remarkable to me that | 0:59:36 | 0:59:41 | |
when it comes to the Brexit vote,
unlike Scotland or Northern Ireland, | 0:59:41 | 0:59:48 | |
Wales voted in lockstep with
England. I just find that | 0:59:48 | 0:59:53 | |
fascinating, but given that tortuous
relationship between the two | 0:59:53 | 0:59:57 | |
countries and the dominance of the
English culture on Wales, what is | 0:59:57 | 1:00:01 | |
that all about? How did that happen?
What is it all about, why did that | 1:00:01 | 1:00:08 | |
happen? I think there are a number
of reasons. Some of the things I | 1:00:08 | 1:00:13 | |
explored within it is the idea that
I never got off Welsh history at | 1:00:13 | 1:00:16 | |
school. Everything I'm talking about
in this lecture I discovered in the | 1:00:16 | 1:00:23 | |
last few years, said Julie. I
remember being in school and being | 1:00:23 | 1:00:27 | |
told to write an essay that started
you are a Roman soldier on patrol, | 1:00:27 | 1:00:33 | |
what do you see? Now I think, I
think, who cares, what about the | 1:00:33 | 1:00:41 | |
Welsh people, what are they see?
Bride-to-be look at it from our | 1:00:41 | 1:00:44 | |
point of view. That disconnection
from your past and understanding | 1:00:44 | 1:00:50 | |
what is going on in context is
really important. Most importantly | 1:00:50 | 1:00:56 | |
is the fact that the opportunities
for us as a nation, as people to | 1:00:56 | 1:01:00 | |
talk to each other and have these
conversations, argued there might | 1:01:00 | 1:01:04 | |
still limited. A lot of our media
comes from ancient. This programme | 1:01:04 | 1:01:10 | |
is tagged on to a programme coming
from England. All the fantastic | 1:01:10 | 1:01:16 | |
work, and I love the work that you
do, think it is amazing and I would | 1:01:16 | 1:01:20 | |
love to see more of it, I would love
to see more opportunities for these | 1:01:20 | 1:01:26 | |
conversations, to be able to set it
in the context of Welsh history and | 1:01:26 | 1:01:31 | |
in the were we really are at the
moment. There needs to be more of | 1:01:31 | 1:01:35 | |
that. Local journalism has collapsed
across Wales. In Port Talbot in 1970 | 1:01:35 | 1:01:42 | |
we had five newspapers with 11
reporters all based on offices, now | 1:01:42 | 1:01:46 | |
we have none. The fragility of the
institution to wheels, you'd think | 1:01:46 | 1:01:55 | |
it is a lack of sense of self or
Welsh people that is leading to | 1:01:55 | 1:01:58 | |
that? We have had difficulty in
reckoning with our past. Partly | 1:01:58 | 1:02:08 | |
because of outside influences, the
fact that Welsh media is a reserve | 1:02:08 | 1:02:12 | |
power for Westminster. You could say
there is at this interest in Welsh | 1:02:12 | 1:02:18 | |
infrastructure comment from England,
it seems like that at times, but | 1:02:18 | 1:02:22 | |
also from within because we have the
two main parties in Wales, Welsh | 1:02:22 | 1:02:30 | |
Labour and Plaid Cymru, there is
such a danger of overlap that the | 1:02:30 | 1:02:33 | |
carving out a political space I
think in some ways has led to a | 1:02:33 | 1:02:38 | |
restriction in what the parameters
of a corsage. Then, in order to have | 1:02:38 | 1:02:46 | |
local communities engage in that,
the opportunities for that have been | 1:02:46 | 1:02:50 | |
so restricted. I'm not saying it has
been on purpose, but in terms of the | 1:02:50 | 1:02:56 | |
incentive to develop more
inclusivity, more outreach, I'm not | 1:02:56 | 1:02:59 | |
entirely sure what the incentive is
there. Why would anyone be | 1:02:59 | 1:03:06 | |
incentivised to develop local
journalistic infrastructure, greater | 1:03:06 | 1:03:09 | |
accountability for government, why
would they be incentivised to | 1:03:09 | 1:03:14 | |
develop that? And not saying it is
conscious. You just look at the | 1:03:14 | 1:03:20 | |
currents within Welsh culture at the
moment and I think there is a | 1:03:20 | 1:03:24 | |
certain star says going on that is
maybe holding us back. The | 1:03:24 | 1:03:29 | |
Conservatives would argue that they
are the third main party in Wales, I | 1:03:29 | 1:03:35 | |
should say. If you accept the point
that you're making that there is | 1:03:35 | 1:03:42 | |
asked that says a lack of stuff
happening, how do you overcome that? | 1:03:42 | 1:03:46 | |
Greater engagement. When I have gone
to various public service delivers | 1:03:46 | 1:03:55 | |
or anyone in authority since the
Brexit referendum all key here is we | 1:03:55 | 1:03:59 | |
must listen more, we have to listen,
we haven't been listening properly. | 1:03:59 | 1:04:04 | |
It is as if listening you can do
just like that. You have to learn | 1:04:04 | 1:04:09 | |
how to listen. It's not easy. Any
time you go wild with an agenda | 1:04:09 | 1:04:15 | |
apart from just listen everything
you hear challenges your prejudices. | 1:04:15 | 1:04:23 | |
To be able to listen and not be
selective about what you hear, that | 1:04:23 | 1:04:26 | |
is a challenge. To actually engage
with the communities across fools | 1:04:26 | 1:04:32 | |
who don't feel they have a stake in
the Welsh theatre as it is. A lot of | 1:04:32 | 1:04:37 | |
communities think that money and
inclusivity doesn't get beyond | 1:04:37 | 1:04:41 | |
Cardiff. Engaged to those
communities, listen to people at the | 1:04:41 | 1:04:45 | |
front line of serving the needs of
communities, then developing | 1:04:45 | 1:04:49 | |
policies through that. Back you said
earlier on to modesty that you have | 1:04:49 | 1:04:56 | |
a small amount of celebrity. To what
end do you want to use that | 1:04:56 | 1:04:59 | |
celebrity? You have spoken in the
past about wanting to engage more | 1:04:59 | 1:05:06 | |
politically. Is this part of you
coming more into the political | 1:05:06 | 1:05:10 | |
world? Yes, political but with a
small p. Would it ever be with the | 1:05:10 | 1:05:16 | |
big P questionable at ever be in
Parliament? If I ever thought that | 1:05:16 | 1:05:22 | |
they could be more affected by being
in a political party in Wales than I | 1:05:22 | 1:05:26 | |
would do it. At the moment I feel I
can be most effective being outside | 1:05:26 | 1:05:30 | |
of the political parties so that I
have my own independence, my own | 1:05:30 | 1:05:36 | |
financial independence. I have a
media platform to a certain extent | 1:05:36 | 1:05:40 | |
myself and I be able to move fairly
freely within different worlds | 1:05:40 | 1:05:44 | |
within wheels, bring people together
that might normally not want to, at | 1:05:44 | 1:05:51 | |
least you can get people in the room
who would not normally have that | 1:05:51 | 1:05:54 | |
conversation. I feel that is the way
I can be most effective at the | 1:05:54 | 1:05:58 | |
moment. It has been said that the
purpose of power is to give it away. | 1:05:58 | 1:06:06 | |
I'm starting to understand that now.
So few people in Wales. They have a | 1:06:06 | 1:06:11 | |
voice and I feel that the purpose of
having a voice now is to allow other | 1:06:11 | 1:06:16 | |
people to speak through it. Michael
Sheen, thank you for your time. | 1:06:16 | 1:06:21 | |
Michael Sheen, thank
you for your time. | 1:06:21 | 1:06:23 | |
While the current focus
of Brexit is on the battle | 1:06:23 | 1:06:25 | |
in the Commons over
the Withdrawal Bill | 1:06:25 | 1:06:27 | |
looking at how we leave the EU,
what are our MEPs doing? | 1:06:27 | 1:06:30 | |
What kind of issues are being raised
with them when they're | 1:06:30 | 1:06:32 | |
at the European Parliament
in Brussels or Strasbourg? | 1:06:32 | 1:06:34 | |
The Conservative MEP
Dr Kay Swinburne | 1:06:34 | 1:06:36 | |
is here with me now. | 1:06:36 | 1:06:40 | |
is here with me now. | 1:06:40 | 1:06:41 | |
Thank you for coming in. For a
Conservative MEP he is very much | 1:06:41 | 1:06:48 | |
prove remaining in the European
Union, a lot of people might be | 1:06:48 | 1:06:51 | |
asking, what is it that you do now?
How is it for the British politician | 1:06:51 | 1:06:57 | |
to in Brussels? It very much depends
on what your wall was beforehand. My | 1:06:57 | 1:07:05 | |
wall before the referendum was very
much helping on financial services | 1:07:05 | 1:07:10 | |
and Europe religion matters with
regards to the legislation. So that | 1:07:10 | 1:07:16 | |
continues. My day job continues as
if nothing has happened. Not only | 1:07:16 | 1:07:20 | |
have I got as much work as I had
done previously, I have still got as | 1:07:20 | 1:07:25 | |
many reports where I am leaving for
the parliament on those pieces of | 1:07:25 | 1:07:29 | |
legislation, even in financial
services where there are some | 1:07:29 | 1:07:34 | |
sensitivities about a British person
taking the role. It is almost | 1:07:34 | 1:07:39 | |
counterintuitive. As we approach
Brexit, your colleagues in Brussels | 1:07:39 | 1:07:42 | |
might be saying, well, we should be
pushing them away, but they are | 1:07:42 | 1:07:48 | |
joined in? Part of it is pragmatic.
If you have the skills to do a | 1:07:48 | 1:07:56 | |
certain job, they have always given
that where they can within the | 1:07:56 | 1:07:59 | |
political system to the people who
can do the work. I have always been | 1:07:59 | 1:08:04 | |
very grateful for the trust and
confidence in me. It seems that has | 1:08:04 | 1:08:08 | |
increased not diminished as a
result. Some would say they are | 1:08:08 | 1:08:12 | |
making the most of the British skill
set while they have still got it. | 1:08:12 | 1:08:20 | |
How did they view Brexit, is a
despair, anger? I think they have | 1:08:20 | 1:08:24 | |
moved on. It is almost as if it is
the different stages of grief. They | 1:08:24 | 1:08:30 | |
have come to terms with it and are
now looking forward so much that | 1:08:30 | 1:08:35 | |
they are planning their future as an
EU 27 and are not spending much time | 1:08:35 | 1:08:41 | |
discussing the Brexit negotiations
because all of that at this stage is | 1:08:41 | 1:08:44 | |
all about Article 50, about how we
actually leave, and those | 1:08:44 | 1:08:49 | |
discussions have been taken out to a
team with a group of civil servants | 1:08:49 | 1:08:59 | |
who have been hand selected to do
these negotiations. All we are being | 1:08:59 | 1:09:03 | |
axed to do on the Brexit side at the
moment is to pass judgment on | 1:09:03 | 1:09:07 | |
whether sufficient progress has been
made by those civil servants in the | 1:09:07 | 1:09:11 | |
discussions. It must be difficult
for use striking a balance between | 1:09:11 | 1:09:20 | |
writing reports for the remaining 27
countries on the one hand, but as | 1:09:20 | 1:09:25 | |
unelected British politician wanting
to get the best for the UK out of | 1:09:25 | 1:09:29 | |
Brexit. Is it a tricky situation? It
is pulling deep in some of those | 1:09:29 | 1:09:34 | |
relationships you have built up over
the last 89 years, in my case. Those | 1:09:34 | 1:09:41 | |
relationships are quite strong, the
network is deep, so I am trusted to | 1:09:41 | 1:09:45 | |
do the work. But you are an elected
UK politician trying to get the best | 1:09:45 | 1:09:53 | |
from your constituents. As it that
element that is tricky? I think they | 1:09:53 | 1:09:58 | |
know that as a Conservative member I
am involved in helping my | 1:09:58 | 1:10:03 | |
Conservative Cabinet members, trying
to work out what the solutions are | 1:10:03 | 1:10:06 | |
after us leaving, but they also know
that just as we were invoking | 1:10:06 | 1:10:14 | |
Article 50, with the commentary at
the time that they would like us to | 1:10:14 | 1:10:19 | |
be the bridge between the two camps,
to take the messaging back of the | 1:10:19 | 1:10:24 | |
pragmatic solutions we think might
work back to the heart of Cabinet, | 1:10:24 | 1:10:28 | |
and therefore influence of their
decisions. Talking to the UK Cabinet | 1:10:28 | 1:10:33 | |
members, what is your view of how
they are dealing with the Brexit | 1:10:33 | 1:10:36 | |
negotiations? BCB splits,
undermining and this that and the | 1:10:36 | 1:10:42 | |
other. From Brussels, how do you see
is the way this process is being | 1:10:42 | 1:10:47 | |
handled by the UK Government? I have
the benefit of seeing both sides. | 1:10:47 | 1:10:53 | |
The way the EU is dealing with
things is not always perfect, and | 1:10:53 | 1:10:57 | |
the way my own government is dealing
with this, which in some terms as a | 1:10:57 | 1:11:02 | |
British way of dealing with things.
It has always been the EU 28 | 1:11:02 | 1:11:09 | |
countries coming together to find a
compromise, and there are special | 1:11:09 | 1:11:13 | |
ways of negotiating bad. My
colleagues have taken a little while | 1:11:13 | 1:11:16 | |
to get into the spirit of what an EU
the grittiest looks like. He is | 1:11:16 | 1:11:21 | |
handling a better, the UK or the EU
27? They are now speaking the same | 1:11:21 | 1:11:27 | |
language. There were occasions in
the early months were there were | 1:11:27 | 1:11:31 | |
maybe saying and agree on certain
things, then going away and | 1:11:31 | 1:11:35 | |
realising they were in different
positions. Is that good enough? We | 1:11:35 | 1:11:39 | |
hear that the clock is ticking. Only
now are they speaking the same | 1:11:39 | 1:11:45 | |
language. Will we run out of time
before the negotiations need to be | 1:11:45 | 1:11:49 | |
in place are in place? What we need
to move on with quickly, and I hope | 1:11:49 | 1:11:54 | |
this will happen in the next couple
of weeks when we get into December | 1:11:54 | 1:11:58 | |
and the next council meeting, is
that there will be a green light for | 1:11:58 | 1:12:02 | |
the next age of the negotiations,
which look at the future | 1:12:02 | 1:12:06 | |
relationship. It is difficult to
negotiate your settlement with the | 1:12:06 | 1:12:11 | |
EU unless you know what you are
transitioning to and how you will | 1:12:11 | 1:12:15 | |
transition because the sums of money
involved will be very different if | 1:12:15 | 1:12:18 | |
it is going to be a longer
transition or a shorter transition. | 1:12:18 | 1:12:23 | |
I think these are important messages
that my colleagues in the EU 27 need | 1:12:23 | 1:12:28 | |
to know where we want to get to as a
final end result. I would hope that | 1:12:28 | 1:12:33 | |
we start those discussions after
that December council meeting. | 1:12:33 | 1:12:39 | |
Should it be the longer transition
period or a shorter transition | 1:12:39 | 1:12:44 | |
period? For me, knowing how
complicated some of the issues are | 1:12:44 | 1:12:48 | |
and how we extricate ourselves from
40 years of legislation, it is not | 1:12:48 | 1:12:53 | |
about the time but about the detail
we need to go into to make sure that | 1:12:53 | 1:12:57 | |
both sides have a workable solution
when we do come out completely. That | 1:12:57 | 1:13:03 | |
transition is not about extending
our membership, it is solely about | 1:13:03 | 1:13:07 | |
finding the right solutions for both
parties during that period. If it | 1:13:07 | 1:13:12 | |
takes two years, then fine, but if
it takes longer we should be | 1:13:12 | 1:13:15 | |
open-minded about it. Thank you for
coming in this morning. | 1:13:15 | 1:13:19 | |
Thank you for coming
in this morning. | 1:13:19 | 1:13:20 | |
That's it for another week. | 1:13:20 | 1:13:21 | |
If you can't wait til next Sunday
for your fix of Welsh politics, | 1:13:21 | 1:13:25 | |
don't forget Wales Live
on Wednesday night at 10.30pm, | 1:13:25 | 1:13:27 | |
but for now that's all from me. | 1:13:27 | 1:13:28 | |
Diolch am wylio. | 1:13:28 | 1:13:29 | |
Thanks for watching. | 1:13:29 | 1:13:30 | |
Hwyl fawr. | 1:13:30 | 1:13:32 |