04/02/2018 Sunday Politics Wales

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

I'm Sarah Smith.

And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

world of politics.

Theresa May is back

after her trip to China.

But there's plenty of fire and fury

from within her own party over

Brexit and her ability to lead.

The Conservative

chairman joins me live.

Labour tells demonstrators only

it can save the NHS.

So, do the party's health

spending plans add up?

We'll talk to the Shadow

Health Secretary.

Months on from the sexual harassment

and bullying scandal that

engulfed Westminster,

we'll be asking what's happened

to plans for Parliament

to clean up its act.

And a violent scuffle at a speech

by one Tory MP has been widely

condemned.

But is it symptomatic

of a wider problem in politics?

In London, a Labour council leader

bullied out of power by the left.

Later in the programme,

how can the opposition work together

to challenge Labour in the Assembly?

And is Carwyn Jones'

authority ebbing away?

That's the view of one of Wales

foremost political commentators.

All that coming up in the programme.

And, as one newspaper speculates

about a 'dream team' being urged

to take over at Number 10,

we've got our own dream team

of journalists - Tom Newton Dunn,

Julia Hartley-Brewer,

and Steve Richards.

And they've promised not

to plot against me...

At least until the end of the show.

So, the Prime Minister

may have been out

of the country to drum up trade but,

even from 5,000 miles away, it

must have been hard to ignore

the continuing unrest

from some in her party,

and repeated calls to be

clearer about Brexit.

Theresa May was in China this week,

where she gave President Xi Jinping

DVDs of Blue Planet as a reminder

of the dangers of plastic pollution.

Back home, Conservative MPs

gave her some advice on how to lead

the party and the Government.

Some advice was offered

to Cabinet ministers

getting restless on Brexit.

The best way they can

support her is to take a vow

of silence on the subject.

But most was for the

Prime Minister herself.

Some even aired their

thoughts in public.

I do think the window is closed

because politics can be

quite a brutal game.

When is the Government

going to stand up against the hard

Brexiteers who mainly

inhabit these benches?

She does not actually

have a majority for her

policy in her Cabinet.

It was advice of a different kind

that hit the Government

when BuzzFeed published leaked civil

service analysis suggesting that,

under various off-the-shelf trading

models, the UK would be less well

off in 15 years than

if we'd stayed in the EU.

But Brexit Minister Steve Baker

wasn't worried about the forecasts.

I think that they are always wrong,

and wrong for good reasons.

The analysis was grist

to the mill for Brexit critics,

but Theresa May probably didn't

expect one minister to pile in.

Justice Department's Phillip Lee

said the leaked report couldn't just

be dismissed and that,

if anywhere near correct,

it raised a serious question

about current Brexit policy.

But that's thinking 15 years ahead.

One former Brexit Minister George

Bridges took aim at the Government

and the House of Lords for still not

knowing what it wanted.

All we hear day after day

are conflicting, confusing voices.

Theresa May returned from China

saying she had secured £9 billion

of business deals during the trip.

Local media dubbed her Auntie May,

while International Trade Secretary

Liam Fox said her middle name

is 'resilience', claiming foreign

leaders were well aware

of Theresa May's strength.

You look at the Prime Minister

in a different way than some of,

let's say, the internal tea room

discussions in the UK do.

While at home there was speculation

about her ability to lead,

Auntie May herself was clear.

I am not a quitter.

She will be relieved the only

resignation she was offered this

week was from a minister who'd shown

up late to Parliament.

I'm thoroughly ashamed

at not being in my place,

and therefore I shall be

offering my resignation

to the Prime Minister.

But with open warfare in her party,

calls to step up her game,

and a crucial Cabinet meeting

on Brexit within days,

Theresa May knows she needs to do

something special to ensure the next

departure isn't hers.

departure isn't hers.

There is plenty to talk about with

my panel of political insiders. It

feels like Theresa May's worst week

since last week that she began the

show but talking about how difficult

it was with fights within the party.

Is it even worse? It is about the

same. What is interesting, if I can

put this in some context, I am

working in a project with the Prime

Minister at the moment. Many Prime

Minister 's worry about being

deposed but it is rare to happen.

From 1968 Harold Wilson was in

trouble and he survived another

eight years. I'm not predicting...

John Major survived until the

general election. This is a constant

theme in British politics that Prime

Minister 's are rarely deposed at

the moment I work on the assumption

she will be around for some time to

come.

It is highly distracting

though. It cannot help with the

issue of the Government or wrecks it

for that matter.

All of Theresa

May's woes art of her own making. It

is about showing backbone and spine

and having a Brexit policy and

sticking with it. I find it

extraordinary we will have two

meetings with the Brexit War Cabinet

on Wednesday and Thursday of this

week to decide the Brexit policy.

She has been in office for a long

time it is a long time since the

last election. It is a total

travesty of leadership that is going

on. All of her problems are of her

own making. She could be doing with

warring factions in her party, the

opposition and all the other

threats, just to be a strong Prime

Minister. Making it clear to the

likes of Philip Hammond, you are

doubtful that he should have been

out a long time ago if she had the

will and strength to do so.

Is it

not by being ambiguous about her

position on terror, and she has been

able to remain as leader of the

Conservative Party?

Completely. I

disagree with Julia and Steve that

there is a third way in all of this.

I believe all her problems are not

of her own making. Brexit was not of

her own making. She somehow had to

try to get this through parliament

where she has no majority, where she

has eight Cabinet split and it is a

huge problem. The only reason she is

there is because she has not made a

big decision, she has not got off

the fence she is trying to keep the

ship together and compromise. As was

said in the brilliant speech in the

House of Lords, to govern is to

choose. Tony Blair said that this is

the year of choice. The next six

months will be the six months of

choices for Theresa May. User needs

to get the choices on Brexit, market

control, sovereignty, access to

huge, great big decisions. She needs

to get that past four different

hurdles was achieved to get the

Cabinet on board among her own MPs

to stay alive and stay in charge

having made those decisions. Then

she has too persuade the EU to buy

whatever it is she will sell. I find

it very, very hard indeed to think

she will get over all four hurdles

by the end of the year. Therefore I

am afraid I cannot see her as

leading the Tory Party by the end of

it.

I think it would be risky for

anyone to make any predictions. Can

I point out that 2018 was not the

year of choice?

2016 was the year of

choice. I care about what the

British electorate wants. The

British electorate made their choice

in 2016. Theresa May did not

increase her majority of the 85% of

people voted for two major parties

in the Ukip and the other parties

supported Brexit. There is a mandate

we need to get on and do the will of

the British people.

I completely

agree with Tom about these hurdles.

They are almost impossible to get

over. But that would apply to any

Prime Minister. So, you have to ask

the question, what does it solve? In

the longer term, changing leader

might give the more electoral

success, who knows? But it does not

solve getting over those hurdles you

could have Boris Johnson saying,

Britain can rule the waves. Those

hurdles will still be there.

But a

Prime Minister who knew more

about... .Mac will come back to this

later in the programme. In the

meantime we will move on.

The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd,

has been speaking this morning

to the Andrew Marr Show,

and she claimed the Cabinet

isn't as divided over

Brexit as some claim.

I have a surprise for the

Brexiteers, which is the committee

that meets in order to help make

these decisions, is meeting, as you

rightly say, twice this week,

is more united than they think.

We meet in the committee,

we meet privately for discussions.

I think we will arrive

at something which suits us all.

There will be choices to be made

within them but we all want the same

thing, which is to arrive at a deal

that works for the UK, that

looks ahead.

It's not just about protecting trade

behind us, it's about looking ahead

to what kind of country

we want to be afterwards.

We all have those

interests at heart.

And I'm joined now by the chairman

of the Conservative Party,

Brandon Lewis.

Thank you for coming in. Amber Rudd

is saying the Cabinet is more united

than people think. The parties that

he doesn't look that way from some

of the things they have heard this

week. It is your job to get them on

the same page in order to make that

happen, do you need to spell out a

vision of what Brexit will look like

so they can get behind it?

It is

like what Amber said. The Cabinet is

united behind the Prime Minister to

make sure we get a good deal for the

European Union.

We are hearing lots

of noises, complaining. They want to

know more about what the end state

will be otherwise they will row

more.

Where I disagree is all MPs,

certainly in the Conservative Party,

are united in seeing we get a good

deal on leaving the EU for the

United Kingdom.

Bernard Jenkin

saying we need to end confusion in

government. They are complaining

about the present uncertainty.

Working out what is the right deal

for the United Kingdom. In

negotiations we are having with a 27

partners who want to continue to

trade with in the European Union is

a very serious and, located piece of

work. We never said this was an easy

piece of work and it is why there

are meetings of the subcommittee in

the Cabinet going through the

details. We have the deal, the first

stage of the deal, before Christmas.

We must look to the next stage which

is agreeing the situation in the

period of translation after March

2000 and 19. The ultimate deal that

we want, for people in the United

Kingdom, after the transition period

as well.

We're all waiting with

breath. Your backbenchers, whatever

side of the other in they are on the

desperately want to know what the

end state will look like. After the

Cabinet subcommittees meet later in

the week, we get more detail?

There

are a couple of key issues. Within

Brexit we have been very clear.

We're going to leave the European

Union, and the customs union. We

want to make sure we can leave the

control of the Borders to the United

Kingdom, the Government of the

United Kingdom. When I am talking to

residents, across the country, they

also want to know that the Prime

Minister is focused on issues that

matter to people every day. They're

getting good education or housing

opportunities for people. The

knowledge and confidence there will

be growth in the economy and

security in the future as well.

It

is hard for the Dublin to get on

with that whenever such a fight

within the party among backbenchers

and senior influential people,

coming out and criticising the

party, criticising the leadership.

Until there is more clarity on

Brexit you will not be able

Brexit you will not be able to get

on with the other policies because

there is such a row in the party.

We

have a range of views, expertise and

great talent to draw on all stop

people putting their ideas forward.

Jacob is a really good example of

that. We saw what happened the other

night with the hard left doing

everything they can to try to stop

people having their safest we have

to ultimately make decisions about

what we think is right for the

country in the longer run. -- having

their say about what we have to

ultimately make decisions about.

Do

you worry whether there is a hidden

agenda?

My experience has been the

civil service in this country has

been superb. They work hard in the

best interests of the Government. It

is their job to give impartial

views. You think they do? That is

one reason why the world is envious

of our civil service and rightly so.

Our job as ministers and the

Government ultimately is to make

decisions on their behalf as you

give consideration and ultimately we

are the ones who have to make the

decisions.

Jacob Rees Mogg says they

are fiddling the figures and putting

out information that is wrong.

As

Amber Rudd herself said, one of the

most gracious and intelligent people

I know, on this, I slightly

disagree. Perhaps they are doing. In

the leaked reports, which have not

been approved and signed off by

ministers, it is about forecasts. It

does not take into account what the

final negotiation will be nor the

final decisions let alone the

domestic policy, which we are

getting on with. Making sure that

people have opportunities and

businesses can grow.

You mentioned

the scuffle at Jacob Rees Mogg was

involved in earlier in the week,

some fairly ugly scenes which no one

wants to see those that you have

plans to tackle intimidation in

political life?

We cannot allow the hard left to

create a situation where people feel

so intimidated they are not prepared

to come forward and have their say.

What we are seeing, and what we saw

in the report is actually people on

the left giving horrendous abuse to

people across the political

spectrum. I do agree, whether

someone's views are at the centre,

right or left, they should have the

freedom and knowledge they can come

forward and stand as a candidate. We

are going to change the law to make

it against the law for people to

intimidate people. But also from the

Conservative Party point of view,

internally we will have a respect

pledge that all of our candidates

will sign up to. If they breach that

cold, we will suspend them.

It's

often Labour politicians who are the

target of a lot of abuse. It is

Diane Abbott who gets far and away

the most abuse on Twitter. How can

you be sure these aren't members of

your own party or your own

supporters who are abusing left-wing

politicians?

We have to

differentiate. We should be able to

robust we have our debates. I have

debated with Diane Abbott over her

inability to get her numbers right

on police numbers. We have seen the

Shadow Chancellor... However it is

from, it is not acceptable. I will

deal with that. We need to have

good, clear, freedom of speech,

robust debate with respect and I

respect the Labour Party to do the

right thing and condemn what we saw

the other night, and see the

leadership do the right thing.

There's no evidence it had anything

to do the Labour Party.

What we do

know is when you have the Shadow

Chancellor of the country

encouraging abuse of people

individually...

He denies that. He

says he actually argues against that

and says he condemned it.

What

anybody can see, anybody can look up

what John McDonnell said. We have

not seen anyone in the senior

echelons of the Labour Party do

anything to condemn this kind of

action or come out and say they will

sign up to a respect pledge but we

will do that.

Getting back to the

Tory party, it is not just the

ructions that have erupted this

week, there has been a lot of

criticism of Theresa May's

leadership, Heidi Allen saying it

was time to get a grip and lead,

another MP said he had a profound

fear of Jeremy Corbyn becoming

leader if they don't get their act

together. It is difficult to manage

a febrile situation in which a large

number of your MPs don't seem to

want Theresa May to lead the party

into the next election.

I know Heidi

and Johnnie very well. I have heard

him be very clear that Theresa May

is the right person to lead the

country and actually Theresa May as

someone who cares passionately about

getting fairness in society,

opportunity for people...

Why do

your own MPs not appear to

understand that?

We should all be

uniting behind our leader.

Funnily

enough that is what David Lidington

said on the Andrew Marr Show last

week when he said it was time to

come together in a spirit of mutual

respect. Will they listen to you

this week, stop the sniping from the

sidelines?

I have been speaking to

colleagues and myself, what I get

consistently is they want us to be

focused on the job we should be

doing. The job I think most of your

viewers would want us to get on with

is delivering a good Brexit but also

we have a domestic agenda to

deliver, like supporting the NHS,

making sure businesses can grow,

people keeping more money in their

pocket and a country that is growing

and optimistic about its future

opportunities.

One Conservative

council got itself in trouble this

week, they run out of money in

Northamptonshire. The leader of the

council said they had been warning

the Government from about 2014 that

they couldn't cope with the level of

cuts they were facing. Did you not

listen to her?

listen to her?

Across local

government councils hopping -- ... I

do think there are more efficiencies

that can be found.

In

Northamptonshire they say they have

actually run out of money.

District

authorities can look at how they can

do more, about sharing services,

sharing senior management and saving

substantial amounts of money. I

would encourage those local

authorities to look at that

opportunity because it means they

can put more of their time and

effort and the money they do have is

focusing on giving good first-class

services.

You are of course going to

allow them to raise council tax, and

we have had warnings from other Tory

run councils as well saying they are

running out of money. It is a bit

difficult though isn't it when you

have prided yourself on low taxes

that many people are likely to see

pretty big rises in their council

tax.

We have to make difficult

decisions due to the economic legacy

we inherited. Council tax roughly

doubled under Labour, I was a

council leader where the party had

run my counsel at the time with

increases of 16% year-on-year. We

have brought that back down so we

had the council tax freeze, and I

would encourage council leaders to

look at how they spend their money.

But council taxes will be going up,

you reckon?

They will be using the

ability they have to raise it a few

percent to give good local services.

People are looking at how efficient

they are, how they are focused on

their local needs to get good

Conservative governments in May this

year.

Thank you.

Yesterday, thousands of people

marched on the rainy

streets of London to protest

against what organisers described

as a crisis in NHS funding.

The Shadow Health Secretary,

Jonathan Ashworth,

was there and told

the crowds that under Labour

there would be more money

for the NHS, higher pay for staff,

and privatisation would end.

No more PFI hospitals.

No more Carillion outsourcing,

leaving hospitals dirty and unclean,

affecting patient safety.

affecting patient safety.

And we're putting Virgin Care,

and organisations like

that, on notice today.

No more suing of the NHS,

no more privatisation.

Privatisation comes to the end

with a Labour government,

as we get rid of that Lansley Act

and restore, and indeed reinstate,

a public National Health Service.

And Jonathan Ashworth is back

in his constituency in Leicester.

He joins me from there now.

Good morning. On that March you were

demanding the NHS get the funding it

needs but we have been looking back

at Labour's manifesto and you

weren't really promising very much

more money for the NHS than the Tory

government says it will deliver.

We

would be putting in an extra £5

billion into the NHS this year. You

will recall that Simon Stevens, the

head of the NHS, was asking for an

extra four billion this year. They

didn't get that in the November

budget but we would put an extra £5

billion into the NHS this year.

You

were talking about an increase of 2%

per year, more than this Government

is promising which is 1.2% this

year, but historically health

spending usually goes up by about 4%

per year and you were promising half

of that.

Yes, over 62 years it went

up by 4% but we would be increasing

expenditure quite substantially in

the NHS in the early years of the

Parliament.

But to an average of 2%

a year over the Government?

Yes but

we also said we would establish an

OBR for the health service to advise

government on long-term spending

needs of the NHS so we would have an

independent body giving us an

accurate assessment of the

demographic changes, the staffing

needs of the NHS, which would inform

future spending decisions. In the

early years of the parliament we

would be spending substantially more

on the NHS, not just for hospitals

which are overcrowded because we

have lost 14,500 beds since 2010 but

also more investment in community

health service.

It's very difficult

for you to give statistics about how

much trouble the NHS is in when you

were promising a very modest

increase in spending of 2%. Under

the last Labour government, health

spending rose by 6% per year, under

Margaret Thatcher's government it

went up by 3% a year. Your manifesto

pledge was to give the NHS on

average less money than Margaret

Thatcher did.

But we would be

allocating £5 billion for the NHS.

You say it is a modest increase, if

I could say it is substantially more

than this Government is putting into

the NHS and when you have Simon

Stevens saying the NHS needs four

billion this year, we were promising

more than that so you say it is

modest but I suggest it is a

significant level of investment

which would allow us to get waiting

lists down. They could reach 5

million under the Government. It

would allow us to deal with

overcrowded hospitals and allow us

to invest in

to invest in community health

services, stop the cuts to child and

adolescent mental health services,

allow us to recruit so we have the

nurses we need.

That is what you can

buy for £5 billion you say, is

scrapping tuition fees are better

use of the money?

I'm always going

to argue for more money for the NHS,

as someone who aspires to be the

Health Secretary.

And therefore

argue against scrapping tuition

fees?

The tuition fee pledge was a

promise made by Jeremy Corbyn and

John McDonnell when Jeremy Corbyn

run for the leadership of the Labour

Party and proved to be very popular

electorally as a pledge so I can see

why the Labour Party will be

sticking with that, but I'm always

going to be making the case for more

money for the NHS. We have seen £6

billion of cuts and

billion of cuts and other...

It is

not clear the amount of money

offered by Labour will be sufficient

to offer their aspirations in social

care.

I would say it would be.

Across the Parliament we would put

an extra £8 billion but we know we

have to look at better ways of

integrating health and social care.

The NHS was created in 1948, social

care was created as a sister service

but they have never worked together

as closely as they should. We are

older, with various different

conditions, we know the social care

system and the NHS will have to work

more closely together so we would

look at integrating properly health

and social care but that is a medium

to long-term plan, not something a

politician can deliver overnight.

It

was made clear at the rally you work

at yesterday Labour politicians

pledging no more outsourcing in the

NHS, what does that actually mean?

No more private companies of any

kind involved in healthcare at all?

What we would want to bring an end

to is the way in which, because of

the health and social care act from

for years ago, it means community

health contracts have to always be

put out to tender. Millions is

wasted, some even say billions

wasted, on the constant tendering of

contracts. We have just seen a

children's health contracts go to

virgin care in Lancashire. When

virgin care didn't win a contract in

Surrey, they forced the NHS to

settle with them out of court.

Macmillan Cancer Support have one in

Staffordshire, the Red Cross, St

John's ambulance, they all have

contracts provided for under the

very act you say you want to repeal.

You don't want these people involved

in health care delivery?

Macmillan

nurses have had a role since the

1970s. They complement what the NHS

offers so we are not talking about

ending the voluntary sector role.

This isn't just voluntary services.

No, but we are talking about private

firms where a full contract for

service delivery, say a children's

health service, is handed over to

virgin, that means the staff are

handed over, the only way virgin or

whatever that private sector company

is can make a profit is by cutting

down on terms and conditions. It

means the staff are often down

branded, knocked down a level in

terms of their pay, and we don't

believe that delivers the quality of

care children deserve and that's

what we want to end.

You talk about the long waiting

lists. Under the last Labour

government that they came in at a

time in the NHS was and a lot of

pressure and delivery used private

sector companies to work through the

backlog of people who were waiting

for operations in order to get the

waiting lists down quickly. Do you

not think that the NHS as an estate

now where you may be forced to

consider that?

The NHS has always

got extra capacity from private

service providers in that

circumstance. The Labour government

was not handing over the delivery

lock, stock and barrel for the whole

sort of health contract.

That's the

difference. But you might still buy

in services. When you say

outsourcing is finished, it doesn't

mean the whole involvement of

private companies is finished?

The

NHS will not build its own

ambulances. We will still buy from

the private sector. Without capacity

in the NHS we will buy in from the

private sector. If you want to get

the rescheduled by Easter, if you

wanted to do that, the anyway the

NHS could do that is by buying in

from the private sector. There is a

difference between spot buying in

the private sector and handing out a

complete contract. Take a really in

four example with the cleaning

contract.

I will have to leave you

on and ask you about Haringey

Council before we go. Clare Cockburn

was on the Andrew Marr show earlier

and she has been giving interviews,

talking about bullying within the

Labour Party and at council

meetings. -- Kober thought she said

she could not complain to the NEC

because she thought that was in

itself a problem. That is deeply

worrying, isn't it?

I don't know all

the ins and outs I have seen what is

in the newspapers but I used to be a

member of the National Executive

committee until 18 months ago. Clare

Kober, if there were specific

complaints, they do need to go to

the NEC and the NEC would look at

that. Various committees would look

at that very seriously.

You reached

a point when a senior member of the

party does not trust the NEC to sort

this out because she thinks they are

part of the problem and not the

answer.

I would say that the NEC, in

my experience, would look at these

things. The NEC got involved in

mediation talks. I am not a member

of it anymore but what I understand

is a substantial number of Labour

councillors in Haringey asked the

NEC to intervene I don't know the

ins and outs but it is clear there

are two sides of the story. On

specific allegations where there was

a meeting in Haringey where there

was anti-Semitic chanting in things

like that, if those people are

Labour Party members were they need

to be reported. If people are being

anti-Semitic they will be thrown out

of the Labour Party, simple as that.

Thank you.

Allegations of sexual harassment

and bullying rocked Westminster

when they emerged last autumn.

By the end of the year,

two Cabinet ministers had resigned

and several MPs from different

parties had been suspended

pending investigations.

The Government promised action,

and announced a cross-party working

group to decide what it should be.

But, so far, it hasn't

recommended anything.

Ellie Price has been finding

out what's going on.

And, just a warning, her report

includes some flash photography.

It wasn't parliament's finest hour.

Revelations of shady goings-on,

of sexual harassment in the Palace's

bars and back rooms,

of bullying in its offices.

Of course, the vast majority of MPs

and their staff were not implicated.

But it was enough that

all the party leaders agreed

something needed to be done.

We should not rest until everyone

working in Parliament can feel safe,

valued and respected.

We have a chance now to get

this right, for everyone

on the parliamentary estate.

Political leaders agreed

to set up a cross-party

working group in November.

MPs, peers, and other interested

groups have been working

on the proposals ever since.

The Leader of the House had said

she wanted the recommendations to be

voted on by Parliament

and implemented by

the end of January.

But here we are at the beginning

of February and still the report

hasn't been published.

Sources close to the working group

tell me it was held up

before Christmas and then

its scope was widened.

It was then due to be released

on Thursday but I'm told it

still needs final sign off

from the party leaders.

I've been told there is now broad

consensus among members on the group

that its recommendations

are suitably robust.

Sources close to the talks told me

there's recommendations are likely

to include a new independent

grievance procedure for staff,

consent lessons for MPs,

starting after the next general

election, a new code of conduct,

and the one most likely

to grab the headlines,

tougher sanctions, including making

easier the process to recall -

and potentially fire

- an MP.

The current situation is one

where I would face harsher sanctions

and penalties for being rude

about another MP on the floor

of the House of Commons

than I would if I were bullying

or harassing a member of staff.

I don't think that is a reasonable,

or tenable, situation,

and I think we need to give staff,

and the general public we work for,

the confidence that Parliament

is not just abiding by the law

on employment rights

and workplace rights

but actually setting a standard.

A representative from Unite is also

on the working party.

The union says its members,

who work in Parliament,

have lost faith in the system.

Our members don't have confidence

at the moment that there's

going to be enough change

in Parliament to make

a difference to the bullying

and harassment culture.

There needs to be positive

engagement with staff and encourage

them, and give them confidence that,

if they make a complaint over

bullying and harassment, that there

will be proper investigation.

And the working group

has its work cut out.

As HR experts consulted

during the process point out,

reforming the existing employment

rules in Parliament

is not straightforward.

One of the big challenges,

you've got 650 MPs, who are all

running their own offices and staff.

So, effectively, you've got 650

small firms in effect.

And the extent to which they have

had previous experience in managing

people, and running businesses,

is probably limited

in many instances.

So, that's part of the problem.

But any overhaul of the system

is unnecessary, says this MP

who has been in Parliament

for nearly 35 years.

I think, by and large,

the rules work as they are.

And, if courtesy and common sense

are applied, there is no need

for any change at all.

Yeah, there are bad

apples in the barrel.

But those bad apples tend to get

weeded out pretty fast.

And I think we could create,

if we're not careful,

a whistle-blowers charter,

a witch hunters charter.

Very difficult for a male of any age

to defend against an allegation.

I'm told the report will be

published next week,

possibly on Tuesday,

and MPs will then debate

it in the Commons.

But it may not satisfy everyone that

it's exactly what's required to put

this House in order.

this House in order.

It's coming up to 11:40am.

You're watching the Sunday Politics.

Coming up on the programme,

we'll be talking about the violent

scenes after protestors interrupted

a speech by the Conservative

MP Jacob Rees Mogg, and plenty more.

First though, it's time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

Hello and welcome to

Sunday Politics Wales.

In a few minutes, one of our leading

political commentators tells me why

he thinks Carwyn Jones' authority

is in tatters, and a group of AMs

criticises the Welsh Government,

saying it hasn't prepared

for a no-deal Brexit scenario.

The chair of that committee

will be here live.

But first, Opposition parties

in the Assembly are entering

a new phase of co-operation

against the Welsh Government,

according to one

senior Plaid Cymru AM.

Adam Price says the parties

will establish a common front

on a range of issues

in the near future.

But what might it mean in practice?

Carl Roberts reports.

Carl Roberts reports.

The opposition parties in the Senedd

all agree on one thing, they want to

see the back of a Labour government

in Wales. In 19 years of devolution,

they have failed to do it at the

ballot box and collectively have not

had much success in Cardiff Bay EDF.

-- either.

Teams of people will come

together to attempt to solve puzzles

and work and team building

activities.

So if a load of

politicians who didn't necessarily

get on but had a common aim, would

it be worth their while coming here

and learning how to work together?

It would definitely make them work

together, communicate better.

I

think it would. I am going to have a

look.

It looks like the opposition parties

might benefit from coming and

spending an afternoon here, being

locked in a room and forced to work

together to overcome a common

problem. In their case, the Welsh

Labour government. Many members on

opposition benches want to

capitalise on what they see as a

vulnerable government. Labour have

29 seats in the assembly but Carwyn

Jones has given government jobs to

Kirsty Williams of the Liberal

Democrats and Dafydd Elis-Thomas,

Independent. Those appointments give

the First Minister a working

majority of 31. Will the opposition

be able to work together to make

inroads?

We did right at the

beginning of this assembly stop the

Welsh Government being reappointed.

I hope therefore that this would

begin a process whereby collectively

the opposition parties, who are in a

majority in the assembly, let's

remember that, good exercise and

overwhelming influence on the Welsh

Labour government. Having bottled

out at the last minute, Carwyn Jones

was let off the hook by Plaid Cymru.

A Labour Plaid Cymru agreement, the

so-called compact, was torn up last

October and one influential Assembly

Member...

I think we're now entering

a new phase. Plaid has ended the

compact. Where there is common

ground, where there is legitimate

reason to challenge the Welsh

Government, not opposition for

opposition say, where we would be

failing to do our job if we weren't

to do it, then I think we will see

increasingly a common front on a

whole range of issues.

Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood has

said she would not enter into any

future coalition with the

Conservatives. But their leader

wants to break that deadlock and

offer an alternative to Labour.

What

I know from my point of view is that

I don't have any ideological reasons

why I cannot work with other parties

in this institution because to me

the ideological reason why Wales

sadly has not delivered in the first

20 years of devolution is the Labour

Party.

Plaid Cymru just cannot vote

with the Welsh Conservatives without

facing challenge on their own party

members. Ukip again, a disorganised

camp. The difficulty for the

opposition parties is they are not

able to work together effectively.

Plaid Cymru...

The question of the M4 relief road.

Plaid Cymru has a different policy

to that of the Conservative Party in

terms of our attitude to the

proposed route. Where I think

possibly we agree is it is

Parliament that should decide. After

all it is parliament parties except

-- elected, not the executive. When

we come to the end of this arduously

long process with a public enquiry,

that should come back to the

assembly for a vote on a resolution

by the assembly and it may well be

the luxury we can even find common

cause with one or two rebel members

of the government backbenches as

well.

Yes, I am prepared to

cooperate with other parties. Even

to vote through things in which

fundamentally I don't believe but

which are better than the other

alternatives.

And who knows, a bond

of cooperation forged now could lead

to closer working post the next

election.

What is important is to

show that you don't necessarily have

to think of government in the

traditional model of having

obviously government ministers

coming from all parts of that

government and actually having a

programme for government that seeks

to improve people's lives chance in

Wales, that we can all sign up to.

The noises from our real politicians

suggest some real cooperation may be

possible. Will it be enough for them

to break out as a cohesive force or

will they be locked into position

for years to come?

On the face of it, 2017 was a pretty

decent year for Carwyn Jones.

The First Minister fronted

a successful general

election campaign in Wales,

and the local elections weren't

as bad as some were predicting.

The only question about

his leadership was -

when would he decide he wanted

to stand down?

But to what extent have

events since the death

of Carl Sargeant changed all that?

I've been talking to

Professor Richard Wyn Jones

from the Wales Governance Centre,

but I began by asking him

where Welsh ministers

were over their Brexit

discussions with Whitehall?

discussions with Whitehall?

We have had a very strange few

weeks, in particular with regard to

weekly draw Bill. -- withdrawal

bill. We all know it is

controversial. The UK Government has

accepted that the most controversial

elements as regards devolution need

to be amended. They promised to

bring forward amendments was still

in the Commons. For whatever reason,

they didn't do that. Of course we

are now in the Lords. The government

are now running out of time to

introduce these amendments, let

alone have amendments which are

acceptable to Scotland and Wales.

Scotland and Wales are clearly very

frustrated about this. They have

been trying not very successfully to

negotiate with Whitehall for months.

It is a sign of their kind of

anxiety they have now introduced

continuity bills which would be the

National Assembly wave -- for Wales

and the Scottish Parliament taking

control of this process of trying to

take control of this process. They

have now signalled they will

introduce these. We have had some

quite significant speeches in the

Lords last week. It is far from

clear that the government has a

majority in the Lords for clause 11

in particular. We have had some

really important speeches by

Scottish Unionists saying actually

this undermines the devolution

settlement. I mean, I am genuinely

bemused as to why the UK Government

hasn't introduced amendments. This

is very, very high stakes. If they

don't have the votes in the Lords

then the powers are going to fall to

the devolved level. Yes, this is a

really crucial period.

And what is

your sense about how the Welsh

Government has conducted itself over

these negotiations, in terms of

having the White Paper a year ago

now outlining its plans, having a

continuity bill now, wanting to set

out what they want to see in the

future? Have they played this as you

would have expected them to do so?

I

think we have seen quite an

interesting change in regards to the

Welsh Government position in the

period since the Brexit referendum.

Initially there was some disarray.

Clearly the Brexit vote went in a

different way from the one that the

Welsh Government hoped for. They in

particular, the fact that Wales

voted in favour Brexit meant that

they were in a weak bargaining

position as compared to for example

the Scottish Government. Scotland

voted overwhelmingly remain. That

gives them more of a more moral

authority on all this. The Welsh

Government have gradually firmed up

their position and we have this

interesting cooperation between the

Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru

initially. And now we have got this

very interesting position of a very

strong alliance between the Scottish

and Welsh governments. And we see

the two relevant ministers, Mark

Drakeford or from Wales and Mike

Russell from Scotland, almost a kind

of double act now. They were in the

House of Lords last Monday. They

were talking to peers. I have seen

them in action in Brussels. They are

in Ireland. The Welsh Government and

the Scottish Government have been

singing from the same hymn sheet.

They have basically been making the

same ask of the UK Government.

You

were saying earlier that the clock

is ticking from the UK Government

point of view. I guess the clock is

ticking in the same way for Labour,

they cannot have this ambiguity for

long because eventually they will

have to say, OK, yes or no to a

second referendum and Jeremy Corbyn

has said no second referendum last

week. But Derek Vaughan has said on

our programme, he will change his

mind. Time is running out for them

as well.

Labour are also having

their cake and eating it. We hear a

lot about that at the moment. And

clearly the British Labour Party has

been doing that. The Welsh

Government to some extent, there has

been an ambiguity about what

precisely it wants, even if the

logic of its British and it's pretty

clear. Yes, at some stage, Labour

will have to come off the fence and

we may see a big internal battle

within the Labour Party but in a

sense, this is down to the UK

Government. Whatever difficulties

Labour has, they are not as

significant geopolitically as the UK

Government 's lack of clarity.

You

mentioned internal Labour tassels.

And I guess that brings us to the

second possibly big story we can

expect to see over the next 12

months and that is Carwyn Jones'

leadership. You wrote that you

thought his grasp over his position

is ebbing away. Why do you think

that might happen?

Political

authority is kind of something often

intangible. And it is easier to see

when it is not there... And it is

very clear that Carwyn Jones'

political authority has ebbed away

very substantially since Carl

Sargeant 's suicide. My Twitter feed

is full of Labour members,

activists, fellow travellers,

attacking the First Minister in

very, very personal... Actually

quite hurtful, I would have thought,

terms. Clearly without fearing any

repercussions. We have very, very...

Actually we have nobody going out

there to speak in favour of him. I

think that is one of the most

striking things over the last few

weeks. There are no outriders.

Carwyn Jones has nobody standing up

in front of the camera, defending

him. Even Theresa May manages to

find people who will stand in front

of a camera and defend her. We

haven't seen that. Or rather what we

are seeing and hearing is all the

talk within the Welsh Labour Party

now is about who is going to be the

successor. How is the successor

going to be elected. It is almost as

if Carwyn Jones is old news in a

sense. There is an issue of when and

how he departs. But the party does

seem to have moved actually to

discussing the successor.

You

mentioned in your article Mark

Drakeford as the main challenger at

the moment. Who else should we be

looking out for?

Again, I have no

knowledge as to who will definitely

throw their hat into the ring. One

is party to all kinds of

conversations. I'm sure you are. But

there is lots of speculation as to

who fancies it. Who can actually get

nominated to be in a position to

stand. So there is lots and lots of

names being discussed at the moment.

I speculate in the article that if

he stands, and I don't know if he

will, Mark Drakeford has an

outstanding chance of winning but

other names of course have been

mentioned for years. People like

Vaughan Gething... I think it is

pretty clear that Alun Davies would

quite like to be leader of the Welsh

Labour Party one day if he can.

Eluned Morgan.

There are lots of names being spoken

about. Who ends up actually throwing

their hat into the ring, who ends up

getting nominated, I don't know. But

what I think is very striking is the

discussion has now moved on to that.

This week marks the official

centenary since some women

were given the vote.

Though it's being celebrated

as a step forward, it didn't give

women equality with men.

So how much of a role did Welsh

women play in that movement?

Rhodri Lewis has been finding out.

Rhodri Lewis has been finding out.

The songs may be uplifting but the

campaign for women's suffrage took

years and was often violent. Several

women took extreme action to get the

vote, including Emily Davidson, who

was killed when she walked out in

front of the Kings horse at the

Derby in 1913. In Wales, there were

in abrupt movements, both peaceful

and militant. Margaret Haig Thomas

is perhaps the most famous figure of

the Welsh campaign. She is best

remembered again because of a

defiant act, when she blew up a post

box in Newport.

She is an extremely

important name in all of this. And

the other important thing about her

of course is that she continued to

campaign after the 1918

representation of the People's act.

She continued to be a very committed

feminist for the rest of her life.

And fluid is Wales' longest serving

current MP. As a long-term

campaigner for women's rights, she

has seen many changes.

I think it is

easier now for women because there

are all women short lists. And I

think that was necessary and it is

still necessary. It is opposed by

quite a lot of number of people

still but it was the only way we

could have got more women into the

House of Commons. And I know because

I was there on my own basically. And

I think it was about 16 years before

another woman from Wales came in.

So

it has been a long fight. I think

that the farmers feel a great sense

of insecurity. They don't know from

martyr to mark what the prices are

going to be.

It was another ten

years before the voting age was

equalised at 21. The following year,

Lady Megan Lloyd George became the

first woman to be elected as a Welsh

MP.

Ministers in the Welsh Government

haven't prepared for a no-deal

Brexit scenario, according

to an Assembly report.

The External Affairs Committee says

it was surprised no plans

were being put in place.

The Committee Chair

is the Labour AM David Rees

and he's here with me now.

and he's here with me now.

Thank you very much for coming in

this morning. Good morning. In this

report, you are fairly critical in

terms of the way you see the Welsh

Government having not prepared for

this no deal scenario. Why is that

such a big problem, do you think?

What is clear is that the no deal

scenario is more and more prominent

in the discussions and it is

important that we ensure that the

Welsh Government is looking at this

as a solution, possible solution. We

were concerned that the answers we

had indicated that it was something

they did not want, which we agreed

with, and something they did not

anticipate being good for Wales,

which we agreed with, but it also

seemed to be some thing they did not

appear to be preparing for.

Mark

Drakeford said no amount of

preparation will avoid the harm that

will be done to Wales and its

economy by leaving the European

Union without a deal. That is his

view.

We totally agree with that.

That is his justification for not

preparing for a no deal but do you

think that is a fair point or does

that make it even more important

that they should be preparing for

that?

It is a fair point but they

should be preparing for that. The

discussions that were going on at

the time and even more recently when

we see Jacob Rees Mogg and other

government ministers highlighting

let's leave without a deal, we must

be ready for a no deal scenario. The

publication on Friday the trade

policy paper started talking about

no deal scenario is.

People giving

evidence to the committee when you

were preparing for this report were

saying they don't get a sense,

public sector bodies, third sector,

charities and so on, felt they were

being involved and informed by the

Welsh Government. How much of a

problem do you think that could be

for them, for people watching at

home, what will be the impact of

this?

For those organisations, they

work on the ground with people in

our communities and it is important

they get a steer as to where we are

going with these solutions and what

support the worst gum and will be a

will to give to give them following

Brexit. It will have to work its way

down. At the moment we are happy the

Welsh Government is talking to

top-level bodies but they need to

ensure that cascades down to all the

organisations that work on the

ground with the communities so the

steer is there so they know it's

everywhere they will go because they

are the ones that will be affected

by the loss of income.

Do you get

the impression that he was gum and

is involved in these high-level

talks with UK Government, Scottish

Government, but maybe not doing that

work of discussing with their own

organisations and with the Welsh

-based organisations as well --

Welsh Government?

They are doing

both. But they need to ensure that

it permeates down to the

organisations themselves and then

down through the supply chains.

Is

it also your view that the Welsh

Government needs to be preparing far

more readily for this no deal

scenario and what should they then

be doing with that information?

I am

pleased to say that the policy

reporters say that concerns are

being expressed and now they have to

look at the sectors in the paper and

look at the individual businesses

and looking at how they can help

those businesses and supply chains

for those businesses and put plans

in place so if a no deal does

happen, they are ready to work with

Welsh businesses and organisations

to work their way through that.

From

a Welsh Government point of view,

they might say, there are so many

possible different outcomes from

Brexit, the UK garment is not saying

what its end point will be, so how

can the Welsh Government be

preparing for a near infinite number

of scenarios -- UK Government?

It is

true to say that the UK Government

's position on this has been all

over the place and therefore the

Welsh Government has not been able

to clearly have a line but a no deal

scenario is one that is a clear

possibility. They may want to take

specific points on the options but

it has to be one of the ones to be

considered. They may look at where

else they can go as a consequence of

the discussions that have gone on.

Otherwise are you happy with the way

the Welsh Government is conducting

itself? We have seen this transition

fund to help companies. You are

happy with how the Welsh Government

overall is approaching Brexit?

I

think the Welsh Government has been

leading on many things. Let's be

fair, it was the first one to talk

about a transition period. That was

12 months ago. They have put other

position papers out. They are moving

forward on position papers but we

need to ensure they are going onto

the ground and working with the

organisations at ground level to

prepare for situations and we also

have to address the situation as to

what happens within the UK in the

future. That is something which

dominates politics at the moment. We

cannot lose sight of preparing for

exit. We will be leaving the

European Union in 12 months' time

and we need to make sure we are

ready for it.

You will have seen

what was said in our interview about

Carwyn Jones, the First Minister 's

political authority ebbing away.

That is what he was saying.

What are

your thoughts on that? I don't

recognise those comments. I see the

Welsh Lib -- Welsh Labour government

in full control with the support of

the Labour membership, the group in

the assembly.

He said nobody is

going out there to defend Carwyn

Jones. Is that true?

I cannot

comment on that. I have not been

asked to comment except for today. I

fully support Carwyn Jones as First

Minister and will continue to do so.

In your view, he should be allowed

to decide his own departure time and

so on?

I think what we should be

doing is let things happen, there is

still an investigation to go through

and we have to see that through to

its conclusions and then we will

come to that point.

That's it from us.

Wales Live is here on Wednesday

at 10:30, but for now

that's all from me.

Thank you very much, both.

Welcome back. Our expert panel is

still with us to talk through the

week's events and what we expected,

in the near future. One thing that

made the news was a scuffle at a

university in Bristol where Jacob

Rees Mogg was interrupted by some

protesters. Let's take a quick look

before we talk about it.

Jacob Rees Mogg, who always seems to

be the centre of any story these

days but Steve, are those unusual

scenes at the University political

meeting or is that happening around

the country are not being caught on

camera and therefore we do not know

about it?

It is not that unusual and

it happens at times when politics is

at the forefront. There is nothing

exceptional about the highly charged

atmosphere of politics and students

have always chosen controversial

speakers to go to university and get

a hard time like that. Jacob Rees

Mogg is brilliant at dealing with

people like that. I have seen him at

meetings where people have come in

and he is fantastic. Very polite and

courteous. That is the way of doing

it. It is an absolute myth that

something is happening and there is

a lot going on in politics at the

moment that is disturbing. People

doing this is not justifiable and

has always happened.

The idea that

someone would come to speak at the

union and someone did not like their

views and you would put on a

balaclava and shout, fascist some at

them, and think that was acceptable.

That did not happen. I'd tell you

what also did not happen, he was not

condoned by the Shadow Chancellor.

Not condone the behaviour in

Bristol.

Apart from the fact that

John McDonnell, not Jeremy Corbyn,

has repeatedly encouraged laughter

from audiences, talking about a

violent insurrection against

politicians. He said he thinks no

Tory MP should be able to speak

publicly without having this sort of

behaviour. Condoned by a mainstream

party, effectively Deputy Leader.

I

think you meant condemns all

violence.

He says that he has not

specifically condemned this. Correct

me if I am wrong. He has not

specifically condemned this.

Brandon

Lewis was trying to say these are

elements of the hard left and trying

to make this a bit of a party

political movement. There is no

evidence that they are associated

with the Labour Party.

There is a

little bit of evidence. A lot of

these infiltrators are members of

Momentum and they consider it to

Jeremy Corbyn. It is now an official

Labour Party campaign group. Brandon

Lewis is going to jump all over this

to try to claim huge political

capital in a bit of a naughty way.

Labour frontbenchers are not

encouraging their members. There is

wider truth going on, which is

politics is basically getting more

ideological. The centre ground is

weak and has a very poor voice. The

louder are on the far left and the

far right. That is why the centre

ground have to speak up.

There is

only one party conference where your

political editor needs security

guards. There is only one another is

the Labour Party confidence. When

Brandon Lewis was here earlier and

he said the Labour Party wants to

stop intimidation in politics, it is

arguable the public order act allows

for that anyway from that nobody

wants to see people putting

themselves forward in public life

being intimidated. Is this a way of

getting political capital out of the

situation?

It is. I remember Keith

Joseph, a real innocent right-winger

going to universities and getting

worse treatment than this. I am not

justifying this treatment was it has

always gone on amongst students.

There is anger that it manifests

itself in these stupid ways but has

always gone on. He is trying to make

political capital. Linked to

Momentum, it is not clear. People

are struggling in the media to make

sense of it. It is different in

different places and its influence

is different in different places. He

is trying to make political capital

out of things that have always gone

on.

Jacob Rees Mogg is at the centre

of every story this week. He is

deeply critical of Treasury

forecasts and having a go at the

civil servants. He actually accused

civil servants in the Treasury of

fiddling the figures. It was a

remarkable thing for a senior

politician to say when they

generally pride ourselves on the

impartiality of the civil service in

this country. A former head of the

civil service, Gus O'Donnell, said

this to say.

We look at the evidence

and we go where it is.

Of course, if you are selling snake

oil, you don't like the idea

of experts testing your product.

That's what we've got,

this backlash of evidence among

experts is because they know

where the experts will go.

Julia, that is him criticising

Brexiteers who have been criticising

Treasury figures.

What do you make

of it? What is that an ageing is we

are forgetting why the Office for

Budget Responsibility was set up. It

was about the fact the Treasury and

civil servants were politicising

these budget predictions and all of

these growth predictions and it

would take the politics out of it

and set up the OBR. Why it was

accepted it was a good idea, we know

the civil service, it is ingrained

in them to be against change it has

been ingrained since time in

memorial. Everyone working for them

says they have to work against the

sluggish view of the civil service.

Brexit is the biggest change their

will take on. They go with the

facts. The same civil servants from

the Treasury are working on those

predictions. It was politicised and

utterly wrong. After the vote to

leave, they predicted there would be

5000 job losses and a recession. The

people who worked on and on this

Treasury report, they are either

completely politicised, in which

case they should go, or they are

really bad at their jobs, in which

case they should go.

It is quite

astonishing to save the Treasury has

its own political agenda.

That is

total bunkum. Civil servants have

views. They are voters that they

properly came into the civil service

because they are

because they are interested in

politics. Civil servants will and

have carried out brilliant bits of

change was that they were behind the

creation of the NHS and welfare

reforms. Everything like that was

done by civil servants. To think

civil servants do things people

disapprove of and an ideological

perspective that Julia will not like

is because they are not being given

direction by ministers for the if

ministers run civil servants

properly they will get results that

they want. Civil servants have had a

woeful leadership from the

Government about Brexit because the

Government will not get off the

fence.

They may well have to this

week. They have two meetings this

week. Will we have any further

clarity by the end of that what the

Government wants the end state to

be?

It will be what it appears to be

now, which is, you have your cake

and eat its strategy. Theresa May

will emerge from these two important

meetings and will say that we want

some kind of continued free trade

relationship with Europe but we want

to be free to make our own trade

deals. B want a soft border with

Ireland and so did be you and now we

will go in and negotiate. It seems

to me that is where the problem

begins. -- the EU. She will

begins. -- the EU. She will not a

have your cake and eat it option.

There are tensions about the

relationship with the customs union.

You mentioned her speech about an

associate membership with the

customs union.

There has been a huge

row about whether we are leaving the

customs union but could be being our

customs union question that she had

said I want is to have a customs

agreement. Why is this such a fault

line within the party?

It comes down

to the absolute epicentre all now up

of Brexit if there is such a thing.

-- nub. A senior Cabinet minister,

they said, the customs union is the

fault line driving right through the

Cabinet on Brexit. It always was and

always will be full to the customs

union is the one thing that will

either stop the Brexiteers getting

what they want out of Brexit, which

is trade deals with the rest of the

world. They remain as corrupt or

soft Brexiteers with what they want,

which is closer links with the EU.

That is why there is such strong

disagreement. There will be yet

another fudge in Cabinet because it

is too hard to make a binary

decision. That will go to the EU.

The EU will look at it and say, this

is cake and eat it verge, decide.

That is the key moment.

It is

extraordinary. -- fudge. It

certainly should not be decided now

that the idea they will decided in a

four our debate is rather unlikely.

Also if you end up with a situation

which does not explain with much

clarity, it will not stop the noises

from the rest of the party, will it?

That has been unstoppable for 30

years. That will be the constant

background hum. It is the fate of

every Tory leader to try to navigate

around that noise. Of course, Europe

has brought down the last three Tory

Prime Minister. Although earlier I

cautious about saying whether she

would fall over the next few months,

Europe is the thing that torment is

Tory leaders.

The alternative, could

a non-Brexiteer come through and

become Tory leader and then Prime

Minister have another election?

Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of

Brexit.

That's all for today.

Join me again next Sunday

at 11 here on BBC One.

Until then, bye-bye.