11/02/2018 Sunday Politics Wales


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11/02/2018

Sarah Smith and Arwyn Jones's guests are Seema Malhotra MP, Daniel Hannan MEP and shadow secretary of state for transport Andy McDonald MP.


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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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After all the waiting we're

finally going to hear

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the Prime Minister's vision

for Britain's future relationship

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with the European Union,

but not for another couple of weeks.

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Key to any agreement will be

whether we should bind our customs'

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arrangements closely to the EU,

or strike out on our own.

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We'll speak to leading figures

from both sides of the argument.

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And Labour argue public

ownership of services

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like the railways are

an "economic necessity".

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We'll look at how

the policy could work

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and whether it's on the right track.

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and whether it's on the right track.

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and whether it's on the right track.

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Who needs the Winter Olympics

when there's plenty

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of thrills, spills and potential

wipeouts in the world

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of Westminster.

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And with me today are three experts

who may very well go off piste:

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Tom Newton Dunn from the Sun,

the Guardian's Zoe Williams

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and Iain Martin from the Times.

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So we hear that Theresa May

will finally be giving her

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vision of a Brexit deal

in the next few weeks.

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The news follows Mrs May hosting two

Brexit cabinet meetings this week

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in an attempt to thrash out

the government's

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negotiating position.

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If reports are to be believed

not much was decided,

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and so there will now have to be

a team building session

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at the prime minister's

country residence Chequers.

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Maybe a few trust exercises

will be in order.

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At the moment however we're none

the wiser and the EU's Chief

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Negotiator Michel Barnier seems

less than impressed.

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To start the week the EU chief

negotiator, Michel Barnier,

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made a trip to Downing Street

with Brexit secretary David Davis.

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Pleasantries with the PM,

but the warning was clear.

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Time has come to make choice.

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Time has come to make choice.

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All week the question was,

are the Cabinet running

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away from making tough

decisions on Brexit?

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As America woke up, the President

took a pop at the

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National Health Service on Twitter.

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But was it all fake news?

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The Health Secretary hit back.

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The Health Secretary hit back.

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The Transport Secretary,

Chris Grayling, told the Commons

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that yet again the East Coast

mainline franchise had failed,

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with renationalisation an option.

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While tensions in the

Conservative Party on Brexit

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were on full display.

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One leading Tory Remainer

did not hold back.

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35 hard ideological Brexiteers

who are not Tories.

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It's about time Theresa May stood up

to them and slung them out.

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On Tuesday, deeds and words,

MPs celebrated 100 years since

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some women were given the vote.

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Westminster awash with suffragette

colours purple, green, and white.

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Wednesday and Thursday,

the Brexit War Cabinet settled

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in for crunch talks.

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They were meant to decide

what the end state should look like.

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Breakthrough?

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Not yet.

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Also on Thursday, a leaked EU paper

warned that the UK's single market

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access in the Brexit transition

period could be revoked

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in the event of a dispute.

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Discourteous?

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The Brexit secretary thought so.

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It's not in good faith.

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We think it's unwise

to publish that.

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The week ended as it

began, with more warnings

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from Michel Barnier on Ireland,

the customs union,

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and continuing EU UK disputes.

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If this disagreement persists,

the transition is not a given.

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So, at the end of a busy week why

not let off steam with a glass

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or two of Brexit juice,

that's English sparkling wine

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to you and me, at the annual

Conservative fundraiser the black

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and white ball.

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The highest bid of the night?

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£55,000 to spend a day with the PM.

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£55,000 to spend a day with the PM.

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We could not afford to get her on to

this programme but we will talk to

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our panel of experts to find out

what is going on behind the

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headlines. Iain Martin, by now we

thought we would know more about the

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government's final negotiating

position. We had two Brexit

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subcommittee meetings this week.

They were meant to come to a

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conclusion I thought. Are we any

further forward?

No. It is possible

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this is a cunning baldric style plan

to make Britain look as confused as

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possible.

A very, very cunning plan.

Very cunning. But the chances of

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that are highly unlikely. It seems

the meeting has happened, there was

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discussion, the Prime Minister did

not express an opinion. The Prime

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Minister was more interested in

secrecy and in fear of a leak, but

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it seems there was not much to leak

anyway, because there was not a

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decision. Actually, the UK's closer

to a position than people commonly

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understand, definitely out of the

single market, but on this crucial

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question of the customs union, or a

customs agreement after, there is

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still no decision taken. I think the

feeling at Westminster, people on

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both sides of the argument seems to

be will someone decide, make the

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case and then get stuck into the

talks which lets remember our

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supposed to begin in six or seven

weeks' time.

This Brexit

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subcommittee is split between

Brexiteers and Remainers. The Prime

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Minister sits in the middle we

understand not really expressing a

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view, that is put together for

careful political reasons but it

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cannot continue, can it?

I think the

presentation at the minute cannot

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come to a decision because they have

not done their homework, student

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essay style crisis conclusion and in

the case of David Davis you could

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believe that is true but the main

reason they cannot come together is

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because of an implacable deadlock.

There is no compromise between in

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the customs union or not in the

customs union. One side has to

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vanquish the other. The Remainers

really have to think it would be

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economic suicide to leave the

customs union but they are also

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really aware that this deadlock is

grinding government to halt. It is

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national duty pulling them in two

directions. They will ultimately be

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the ones to say I do not want to cut

the baby in half, you have the baby.

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At some point it will have to go to

the country because it is a stupid

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idea to cut a baby in half expect

what will happen for the Prime

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Minister who will have to make a

decision for the kind Brexit she has

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advocated?

She will do that and the

danger is huge. She will have to get

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off the perch at some point. We have

been sitting in these chairs for 20

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months saying the Prime Minister has

to choose between prioritising

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market access and prioritise and

sovereignty. That is the simple

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case. You may get a bit of both out

of the EU but you will get more of

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one than the other. I think

interestingly, there is a lot of

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movement going on under the surface

which Number Ten are desperate not

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to show any of the machinations of

it because they want to present a

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complete finished article. There is

some sense of consensus growing in

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the Brexit community I am told, not

to sign off on a customs union but

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to sign off on a semi-single market

alignment, soap aligning with all

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the single market rules on

manufactured goods is what I am told

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they are beginning to agree to do,

which they feel they should do

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because British companies will go

ahead and stand by all the EU

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regulations because that is what

they want to continue to sell into

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the EU. There are some members of

the committee who are opposed to

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this. Boris Johnson is the main one.

If they do agree to allow heavily on

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manufactured goods but not on

services, in other words they choose

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what to Jerry picked and can agree

what to cherish pick -- cherry pick,

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but if they choose what to align on

Ben Boris Johnson has do make a

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decision himself.

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decision himself. We could

potentially see some Cabinet

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resignations and I put Boris Johnson

at the head of it in two or three

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weeks' time. That is the root of the

potential compromise.

On services,

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on financial services, there is not

a functioning single market. The

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question comes down to manufactured

goods. A lot of the regulations have

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their origins in global standards,

something like the car industry. Is

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Boris Johnson going to find himself

in a position where he will die in a

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ditch over trying to make the UK

diverged from globally set standards

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on carburettors? It would be an

interesting position if he does.

It

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sounds ridiculous but it also sounds

like the sort of thing he will do.

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We will come back to this later in

the programme.

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As it's still not clear

what the government wants its final

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relationship with the EU will look

like, we thought we'd

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try to help out by looking

in detail at the key dilemma,

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when it comes to working out

a customs arrangement,

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should we hug the EU close,

or break out on our own?

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We've lined up two politicians

from either side of the argument

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and, just for a change,

they'll be asking

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the questions not me.

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So I'm joined by the soon to be

former Conservative MEP and leading

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figure in the Leave campaign

Daniel Hannan and by the former

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Labour frontbencher and supporter

of Open Britain Seema Malhotra.

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Earlier this morning we tossed

a coin to see who would go first.

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Daniel Hannan won and he agreed that

he would go first.

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So here with thoughts

on what our end

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relationship should be.

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relationship should be.

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90% of the world's economic growth

over the next 15 years will come

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from outside the European Union.

Britain is a maritime nation, linked

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to the world's fastest-growing

economies by language, law, culture

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and kinship. But we cannot sign

trade deals, not while we are in the

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EU's customs union. Staying in the

customs union after we leave, would

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be the worst of all worlds. It would

give Brussels 100% of our trade

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policy with 0% input from us. In

order to take advantage of Brexit,

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we need to set our own regulations.

Sometimes, for reasons of economies

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of scale, we might want to match

what the EU is doing. If we do want

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to keep elements of the single

market, it must be through agreement

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and on a case-by-case basis. In

1980, the states now in the European

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Union counted for 30% of the world's

GDP. Today that figure is 15% and

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falling. Britain needs to raise its

size. Our future bright, our future

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is global.

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Well, Seema and Dan are with me now.

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And just to explain the rules.

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Seema Malhotra has five minutes to

interrogate down.

This week a Tory

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MP said I think the real concern

about the direction of travel when

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it comes to Brexit, we are to real

crunch point and the government has

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not worked out 19 months on what the

endgame is and we need to know. That

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is pretty clear, isn't it? You and

others said Brexit will be easy so

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why is this the case?

Nothing

worthwhile is ever easy. I do not

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accept that the government has not

made it position clear. It made it

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clear in Lancaster House beach and a

series of white papers since. As

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Theresa May says we want to keep

control of our laws, taxes and

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borders. But within that, we want to

have the closest possible

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relationship with the rest of the

EU, compatible with being a

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sovereign country. We want to be its

best friend and ally. We will align

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with other countries but on our own

terms.

Things are not going

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according to plan. You and others

said we will be keeping key

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agencies. David Davis said we would

keep the agencies but now they are

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leaving. The European medicines

agency is heading for Amsterdam, the

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European banking agency will go to

Paris. That is 2000 highly skilled

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jobs being lost from the capital.

Isn't this a high price we are

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paying for certainty?

If you're that

fixated on Eurocrats jobs then you

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there is something wrong with your

priorities. All of the worries we

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had about job losses turned out to

be nonsense. Instead of losing half

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a million, we have gained half a

million. More people are working

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than ever before. I never claimed we

would be keeping these Euro agencies

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in the UK. Of course if you leave

the EU you leave these Euro agencies

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and you no longer have them on our

soil. We will make our own

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regulations.

You are calling these

agencies Eurocrats, these are people

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helping with key sectors of our

economy, scientists, those who are

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experts in finance and other

sectors. I agree that Britain could

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trade more with the world and we

need to, but evidence of leaks from

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the government this week shows that

the impact of free trade deals

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around the world will no way

compensate for the loss of trade

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with the EU which a hard Brexit

would do for the UK. If you don't

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believe me, you can listen to the

words of the Prime Minister who said

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during the referendum we export more

to Ireland than we do to China,

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twice as much to Belgium as we do to

India, it is not realistic to think

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we could replace European trade than

these markets.

We export more to

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Ireland than China, that is our

problem! Which is the better

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long-term growth prospects?

Don't

you agree that there will be an

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impact on British businesses and

families even in the short term and

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isn't it right that you raise that

risk with the British people?

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Obviously we want free and

frictionless trade with the EU and

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the freedom to my trade deals

further of broad. EU does not have a

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trade deal with US, with India and

old friends like Australia, the idea

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that we cannot do trade deals and

bring benefits to this country I

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think is incredibly defeatist. Are

we really saying it is a good idea

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to sell more to Ireland with five

mil in people than to China with

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more than a billion. -- 5 million

people.

Their study after study

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which shows the proximity we have

two nations goes a long way to

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determining our economic links, that

is not just the case for us but for

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countries around the world. Of

course we can do more. We have a

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trade surplus with the US already. I

have spoken to investors from other

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countries who say they want to come

and do more in the UK but the point

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is, part of the reason they do that

is because we have access and they

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have access to the European markets

of 500 million people to sell those

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goods as well. What do you say to

the genuine concerns from Nissan and

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Honda, now even the Japanese

ambassador talking about a challenge

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to the profitability of those

companies in the UK, and the threat

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they may have to leave those

operations and go elsewhere?

They

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made those threats during the

referendum and after the vote was in

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they confirmed that not only were

they staying here but Nissan was

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increasing its productivity and

activity in the UK. I think you

0:16:470:16:50

should look at what they are doing

rather than what they are saying.

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This idea that we are defined by our

geography is an old-fashioned

0:16:530:16:57

18th-century way of looking at

trade. In the modern age where we

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have low freight costs, the Internet

and cheap flights, geographical

0:17:000:17:05

proximity has never mattered less.

We are linked by language, law,

0:17:050:17:11

cultural, legal systems and

accountancy systems to the fastest

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growing con is the planet.

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I would like to ask you, you have

set all your vision for how you

0:17:200:17:24

would like to see our future

relationship with the EU. How

0:17:240:17:27

confident are you the Prime Minister

will outline a clear vision soon and

0:17:270:17:31

it will outline with Ewels?

She's

outlined the broad principles

0:17:310:17:35

already. -- with yours. Fleshing out

issues like how to make the Irish

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border were, how to make the

facilitation of customs work. This

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thing nobody has explained what we

can do in terms of customs is not

0:17:440:17:48

true. The government produced a

lengthy paper talking about how we

0:17:480:17:51

can do things like expand the ...

It's worth noting that both ahead of

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HMR see here and his equivalent in

the Republic of Ireland have said

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there is no need for a Customs

border, that companies can make

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their customs declarations in the

way they make their tax

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declarations. They are now

emphatically not choosing to listen

0:18:120:18:15

to the experts when they say they

don't need a hard order in Ireland.

0:18:150:18:17

Thanks.

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Now it's the turn of Seema

to be grilled but first,

0:18:220:18:25

here's her thoughts on how

our future relationship

0:18:250:18:27

with the EU should look.

0:18:270:18:28

I respect the result of the

referendum. We need to move forward

0:18:280:18:33

to find a deal that protects jobs in

the economy. 43% of all of our trade

0:18:330:18:39

is done with the EU. Staying inside

the customs union gives us tariff

0:18:390:18:44

free trade access to our many new

partners. Issues surrounding

0:18:440:18:48

immigration and sovereignty can be

addressed while staying in the

0:18:480:18:51

customs union and the single market.

But on terms that we negotiate. We

0:18:510:18:55

can also then trade freely with

countries the EU has deals with.

0:18:550:19:01

Deals that we have helped negotiate.

And staying in the customs union is

0:19:010:19:06

key to a solution on Ireland. Our

select committee found that it is

0:19:060:19:10

unclear how we can avoid a hardboard

if we leave the customs union. I

0:19:100:19:16

agree we need reform and greater

controls on the freedom of movement,

0:19:160:19:19

but people did not vote to become

poorer. Let's leave the European

0:19:190:19:23

Union in a way that puts the

prosperity of families and

0:19:230:19:26

businesses first.

0:19:260:19:29

So as before you have five

minutes to give a grilling.

0:19:290:19:31

Off you go.

0:19:310:19:33

Two weeks ago Jeremy Corbyn says

said he was against staying in the

0:19:330:19:39

customs union because it is

protectionist against developing

0:19:390:19:42

countries, do you agree?

It's

important to balance what we do need

0:19:420:19:45

to see change in terms of

international trade and support for

0:19:450:19:49

developing countries. But also to

recognise the contribution that

0:19:490:19:52

being in the customs union and the

European Union has made for our

0:19:520:19:55

prosperity...

Do you agree with

Jeremy Corbyn?

I think that a lot

0:19:550:20:02

has been done to support

development, International

0:20:020:20:05

development...

Forgive me, that's a

different question... We're not

0:20:050:20:08

talking about that, do you agree

that the customs union is

0:20:080:20:12

protectionist against developing

countries?

It can be for those

0:20:120:20:15

countries that are in the customs

union. That's very understood

0:20:150:20:22

economics. It encourages trade

creation and development between

0:20:220:20:27

those countries, but it doesn't

preclude, as has been shown by the

0:20:270:20:32

over 60 trade agreements we have is

a European Union with countries

0:20:320:20:35

around the rolled, from having

strong relationships with other

0:20:350:20:38

countries. That's what I believe. --

countries around the world.

There

0:20:380:20:42

are lots of things we do not produce

ourselves. We have to impose tariffs

0:20:420:20:47

on oranges. In yours and my

constituencies there are not orange

0:20:470:20:53

plantations. Is it a reasonable

thing that to protect Mediterranean

0:20:530:20:57

orange growers we should be

discriminating against producers in

0:20:570:21:00

Africa, the Americas, developing

countries, at a cost our own

0:21:000:21:04

consumers?

I believe what you can do

is negotiate across the world in

0:21:040:21:09

terms of how you encourage greater

free trade and greater ways in which

0:21:090:21:12

we can trade with different nations.

That's what we do also already. We

0:21:120:21:17

had no Norma 's track record in

investing in farmers in Africa...

On

0:21:170:21:22

that point... -- we have had an

enormous track record. That means we

0:21:220:21:27

are giving Brussels total control of

our trade policies but we are no

0:21:270:21:31

longer EU members so we have no

control.

Almost 50% of our trade is

0:21:310:21:35

with the EU. Over 70% of the

companies... Over 70% of companies

0:21:350:21:43

that export to the EU, that is jobs

your constituents and my

0:21:430:21:47

constituents will be dependent on,

over 90% of that being small and

0:21:470:21:51

medium-size enterprises. They

look...

I'm not having much joy

0:21:510:21:55

getting answers to my questions. You

are going off on a tangent. Let me

0:21:550:22:00

have another go.

I'm saying we can

do both and that is what we should

0:22:000:22:04

be doing.

You think leaving the EU

but staying in the customs union so

0:22:040:22:08

Brussels controls 100% of our

0:22:080:22:14

Brussels controls 100% of our trade

but we have zero input... You think

0:22:160:22:17

that gives us more influence in

world trade than taking our own

0:22:170:22:20

voice and vote in the world trade

organisation and be able to do our

0:22:200:22:23

own deals, is that what you are

saying?

When you talk about the WTO

0:22:230:22:27

rules, if you look at the

government's analysis which was an

0:22:270:22:30

average of other studies, it shows

even in the South East if there is a

0:22:300:22:35

withdrawal based on...

I'm going to

have one more go to get an answer

0:22:350:22:38

because you are telling me lots of

interesting things which are nothing

0:22:380:22:40

to do with what I'm asking. Let me

have another go... The highest

0:22:400:22:45

tariffs imposed by the customs union

are on the items that most

0:22:450:22:52

negatively impact people on low

incomes, particularly food,

0:22:520:22:56

clothing, and footwear. They pay a

proportionately higher chunk of

0:22:560:23:00

their weekly Budget on these

commodities, these basic things.

0:23:000:23:02

They are the most badly hit. We are

clobbering poor people in this

0:23:020:23:06

country in order to hurt developing

nations. How can you come as a

0:23:060:23:10

progressive politician with a proud

history of standing up for people

0:23:100:23:14

who are underprivileged, now stand

there and defend a system that

0:23:140:23:18

forces us to give more to wealthy

French farmers than poor African

0:23:180:23:23

farmers, and forces the highest

bills to be paid by the lowest

0:23:230:23:25

income people in Britain?

I will

fundamentally disagree with you. I

0:23:250:23:29

believe being a member of the EU has

been fundamental for our prosperity,

0:23:290:23:34

for families and businesses. What

you fail to highlight is numerous

0:23:340:23:39

studies that show many British

families are worse off as a result

0:23:390:23:44

of us having had the referendum and

now the uncertainty that is

0:23:440:23:48

followed. People have already

suffered. -- that has followed.

You

0:23:480:23:56

are still not answering. Let me have

another crack at this. The countries

0:23:560:24:01

closest to the EU economically. The

countries that have opted to

0:24:010:24:05

parallel or join the single market

Norway, Switzerland, Iceland,

0:24:050:24:09

Liechtenstein, none of them is

interested in joining the customs

0:24:090:24:13

union. Why do you think that is?

They have separate arrangements.

0:24:130:24:18

They have arrangements with each

other. They have ways of resolving

0:24:180:24:21

disputes. It is like a mini European

Union in the way that they work

0:24:210:24:25

together. I believe that we could

consider approaching those countries

0:24:250:24:31

to see whether that would be an

arrangement that could work for

0:24:310:24:33

Britain.

That would mean leaving the

customs union, right?

Potentially

0:24:330:24:39

alongside how we negotiate being in

the customs union. Fundamental for

0:24:390:24:43

peace in Northern Ireland and the

Good Friday Agreement. It's not just

0:24:430:24:46

me saying that, it's the Irish

government, the head of the Irish

0:24:460:24:50

police, and the Irish people.

Time

is up. Thank you for your questions.

0:24:500:24:55

What you are advocating is not

Labour policy. Do you believe you

0:24:550:24:59

will change the mind of Jeremy

Corbyn?

You know there is a debate

0:24:590:25:04

going on in the Labour Party. That

is not unexpected, because as the

0:25:040:25:11

situation changes, as new facts come

to light, as we have to consider

0:25:110:25:15

what life will be like with the end

state post the transition, we will

0:25:150:25:19

have that debate. It is certainly

the case that the range of views

0:25:190:25:23

across the Labour Party are far less

in terms of the spectrum of what's

0:25:230:25:26

going on in the Conservative Party.

The fundamental issue is we have a

0:25:260:25:31

Prime Minister and cabinet that have

no idea about end state. They have

0:25:310:25:35

failed to reach any sort of

agreement after two days away this

0:25:350:25:39

week. And I think it is embarrassing

for us as a nation that 19 months

0:25:390:25:45

after the referendum we are in such

disarray.

Thank you both very much

0:25:450:25:49

for coming in and asking the

questions.

0:25:490:25:51

And those of you in the South

of England will be lucky

0:25:510:25:54

enough to see more of Dan Hannan

as he'll be appearing

0:25:540:25:57

in the Sunday Politics South

in just over ten minutes.

0:25:570:25:59

And you can find

more Brexit analysis

0:25:590:26:00

and explanation on the BBC website,

at bbc.co.uk/Brexit.

0:26:000:26:02

The recent collapse

of Carillion and the ending

0:26:020:26:05

of the East Coast Rail franchise

early has emboldened the

0:26:050:26:07

Labour Party to push its agenda

for renationalising key services

0:26:070:26:09

such as rail, water and energy.

0:26:090:26:11

But that's not all, the party

is looking into supporting local

0:26:110:26:14

economies by helping councils do

things like bringing

0:26:140:26:15

more services in house,

using local small businesses

0:26:150:26:18

where possible and helping to set up

new small scale energy companies.

0:26:180:26:23

So, is the plan workable,

and can it help Labour shed

0:26:240:26:27

the image that more state control

will lead to inefficiency and a lack

0:26:270:26:30

of innovation and investment?

0:26:300:26:31

Elizabeth Glinka has

travelled to Preston,

0:26:310:26:32

a Labour council the party

are championing as a model

0:26:320:26:35

for the future, to find out more.

0:26:350:26:40

When he visited in the 1850s car

Marks said industrial Preston might

0:26:490:26:54

be the staging post for an economic

revolution. It's taken 160 years but

0:26:540:26:58

he may have been onto. -- Karl Marx

said.

Preston described in the press

0:26:580:27:06

as a pilgrimage for London folk.

LAUGHTER

0:27:060:27:12

The Shadow Chancellor just dropping

in this week to heap praise on

0:27:120:27:16

Preston's new locally focused

economic plan. Nowhere is that plan

0:27:160:27:22

more visible than at the city's

trendy undercover market. Traders

0:27:220:27:27

rush to finish their new stalls

ahead of next week's reopening. The

0:27:270:27:32

so-called Preston model borrows

heavily from similar schemes in the

0:27:320:27:36

American rust belt. It installs the

virtues of keeping more services

0:27:360:27:41

in-house using worker let

cooperatives. And when it comes to

0:27:410:27:45

big contracts like the redevelopment

of this beautiful Victorian market,

0:27:450:27:50

they go not to the overextended big

boys like a religion but to smaller,

0:27:500:27:54

local firms, keeping the money in

the area. -- like Carillion but to

0:27:540:28:03

smaller, local firms. Matt Brown, a

local boy motivated by what he saw

0:28:030:28:07

as the continued decline of a once

great city, is behind this.

We came

0:28:070:28:12

to the conclusion that a fightback

we've got to do it ourselves. We

0:28:120:28:16

cannot be dependent on central

government that is cutting back on

0:28:160:28:19

money. The public sector is pretty

much buying locally from local

0:28:190:28:24

suppliers. We are looking to form

cooperatives. We're selling our own

0:28:240:28:28

energy in partnership with other

councils. Pensions are invested

0:28:280:28:32

locally. These alternatives around

the world. In American cities like

0:28:320:28:37

York, Cleveland, and Barcelona,

people are waking up to the fact

0:28:370:28:40

that we have an economy that works

for the top 1%. -- like New York and

0:28:400:28:45

Cleveland. And the rest of us are

basically fighting for the scraps.

0:28:450:28:50

Under the model the council has

spent an additional £4 million

0:28:500:28:54

locally since 2012. It has also

persuaded universities and hospitals

0:28:540:29:00

to redirect their spending towards

local suppliers. And it isn't just

0:29:000:29:04

Preston, a number of other Labour

authorities are trying something

0:29:040:29:06

new.

We have local councils now that

have set up energy companies to

0:29:060:29:12

provide cheaper, renewable energy

foot we have others running bus

0:29:120:29:17

networks. -- cheaper, renewable

energy and we have others running

0:29:170:29:24

bus networks. It is a way of getting

best value for money as well as

0:29:240:29:27

Democratic controlled of services.

Your critics might say this is

0:29:270:29:33

cuddly, cooperative windowdressing

for an agenda which, long-term, is

0:29:330:29:38

about mass renationalisation, which

you think the public would not be

0:29:380:29:41

keen on.

CHUCKLES

0:29:410:29:43

How sceptical people can be. I am a

socialist. We should share our

0:29:430:29:48

wealth. We have councillors going

out to get elected. When they get

0:29:480:29:52

elected they say they will use our

council resources locally and in

0:29:520:29:55

that way we can benefit local

people.

Is it back to the future? It

0:29:550:30:01

was revealed this week the

government may be on the brink of

0:30:010:30:04

renationalising the East Coast

mainline. Labour's frontbencher has

0:30:040:30:08

been clear about its aspiration to

renationalise not just a rail but

0:30:080:30:12

energy, the Post Office, and even

water. This weekend the party held a

0:30:120:30:17

conference to discuss the expansion

of the Preston model, but others

0:30:170:30:21

remain less convinced by its wisdom.

This idea is very popular nowadays,

0:30:210:30:26

both on the political right, people

like Trump promoting it, and on the

0:30:260:30:30

political left. But it is a failure

to understand the benefits of trade.

0:30:300:30:35

The idea you can enrich yourself

with the border. I draw a line

0:30:350:30:41

around an area. And somehow that

will make us better off is magical

0:30:410:30:45

thinking. How you become better off

is through becoming more productive.

0:30:450:30:49

These ideas are tricks for becoming

richer that involve boundaries. It

0:30:490:30:55

is an abiding fantasy, but it is a

fantasy.

The doubters may doubt, but

0:30:550:31:00

in a post-Carillion world labour is

convinced public opinion is pulling

0:31:000:31:04

in its direction.

0:31:040:31:07

Well, to help me to understand

more about Labour's

0:31:070:31:09

plans I'm joined by Labour's Shadow

Transport Secretary Andy McDonald

0:31:090:31:12

who's in Newcastle.

0:31:120:31:16

Good morning, thank you for joining

us.

John McDonnell says the plans to

0:31:160:31:25

re-nationalise energy, water and

rail would cost absolutely nothing.

0:31:250:31:27

That sounds too good to be true.

Explain how it could work?

In terms

0:31:270:31:34

of the rail Wales, it would bring

the railways back into public

0:31:340:31:38

ownership at no cost at all. -- in

terms of the railways. We would

0:31:380:31:44

bring them back once the franchises

expire. That would be considerable

0:31:440:31:51

savings of £1 billion per annum.

Then you will have to find £70

0:31:510:31:55

billion for the water industry,

nearly 40 billion for the National

0:31:550:31:59

Grid, how can that cost nothing?

Because you would be acquiring an

0:31:590:32:07

asset, you would be acquiring an

asset, you would be paying back the

0:32:070:32:13

revenues which you derive over the

businesses over time and you would

0:32:130:32:17

keep the costs down for the

consumer.

So you would be adding to

0:32:170:32:21

the national debt and you would have

to pay interest on that debt which

0:32:210:32:25

you would do out of the revenue you

get from the companies, but you also

0:32:250:32:30

say it will cost less from the

consumers that bills would come

0:32:300:32:33

down.

If you have £30.5 billion of

dividends paid out, if you run

0:32:330:32:41

things on a not-for-profit basis, it

can ensure that customers can get

0:32:410:32:46

the best possible returns.

That

profit might be good for customers

0:32:460:32:49

but it does not sound good for

paying back the interest on the

0:32:490:32:53

loans that you took out for buying

the organisations in the first

0:32:530:32:57

place?

You heard John McDonnell

express the analogy of having a

0:32:570:33:02

mortgage over a property. You have

acquired the assets, you have the

0:33:020:33:06

income derived from renting it out,

it pays the gas it and you have

0:33:060:33:10

still got it. It makes consulate

sent to hold those acids and make

0:33:100:33:14

them work for the benefit of the

citizens.

If interest rates rise,

0:33:140:33:20

after you bought that house and you

are renting it out, it is important

0:33:200:33:25

that costs can derive from the

rental income. We know that rates

0:33:250:33:31

can rise. There is every possibility

that the interest you will be paying

0:33:310:33:35

will not cover the profits and cost?

It is no different to the position

0:33:350:33:40

now. If water companies and energy

companies are financed, they have

0:33:400:33:46

those structures in place, the rate

of interest that they pay on their

0:33:460:33:51

financing is passed through to the

consumer ultimately.

I tell you how

0:33:510:33:56

it is different now, and your system

it would be passed to the taxpayer

0:33:560:34:01

presumably. If any of these

industries started making a loss,

0:34:010:34:05

who picks up the tab for that?

Have

they made a loss since they were

0:34:050:34:11

privatised? They have not, they have

made very great profits.

The reason

0:34:110:34:16

they are giving up the east Coast

franchise is because they have lost

0:34:160:34:23

£200 million.

That shows how the

franchising system is completely and

0:34:230:34:26

utterly flawed and should be

abandoned.

If the government run

0:34:260:34:32

East Coast Mainline lost £2 billion,

who would be on the hook, the

0:34:320:34:37

taxpayer?

When the government last

ran East Coast Mainline they ran it

0:34:370:34:42

at a profit, it brought money into

the Treasury. We have a good history

0:34:420:34:46

of running the railways correctly

and not having this bailout to

0:34:460:34:50

Richard Branson and Brian Souter and

the rest of them or seeing the

0:34:500:34:54

dividends and profits overseas to

the state-owned companies of

0:34:540:35:01

continental Europe. We want to put

an end to that and make sure we run

0:35:010:35:05

our railways for the benefits of the

public.

Let's look at one company,

0:35:050:35:11

Bristol energy which looks like the

kind of company you are advocating.

0:35:110:35:15

It is set up locally and has ethical

behaviour. There are no shareholders

0:35:150:35:21

so nobody is taking a profit out of

it. It has lost 2 million over two

0:35:210:35:25

years and does not expect to be

profitable until 2021. But does not

0:35:250:35:30

sound like a great deal for the

taxpayer if that is how you're going

0:35:300:35:37

to run the National Grid.

If they

are recouping the losses and they

0:35:370:35:40

have the trajectory of growth and

greater incomes, they will look at

0:35:400:35:43

that and say to successful.

The

Labour government...

They got tax

0:35:430:35:51

breaks, public capital to set them

up in the first instance, they were

0:35:510:35:55

heavily subsidised so they could go

on and enjoy the benefits of private

0:35:550:36:00

enterprise that does not benefit the

consumer or the taxpayer or the

0:36:000:36:04

citizens, however you wish to

describe it.

The consumer and the

0:36:040:36:09

taxpayer may be the same person but

they have a different financial

0:36:090:36:14

relationship with these companies.

What comes first, using any profit

0:36:140:36:19

or revenue you have used to acquire

these assets or cutting bills?

You

0:36:190:36:23

do both. If you have got that income

you can use it for those purposes.

0:36:230:36:29

Do cut energy bills or do you repay

the debt?

Those who have benefited

0:36:290:36:35

from privatisation of had the

benefit of not only using that money

0:36:350:36:39

to pay the debt they incurred to buy

the assets, they are now using it to

0:36:390:36:42

make dividend payments out to their

shareholders. It clearly can be done

0:36:420:36:47

and we want to be in that position

so it works for the benefit of

0:36:470:36:51

people and not for corporate

entities.

The shareholders are not

0:36:510:36:57

all millionaire individuals. A lot

of this is owned by pension funds to

0:36:570:37:00

which many workers pensions are

held, can you guarantee that you

0:37:000:37:05

will reinforce the Leave reimburse

them at full market value so that

0:37:050:37:13

nobody's pension will lose out?

The

market value is the market value at

0:37:130:37:18

the time these assets are required.

John McDonnell has made it clear

0:37:180:37:23

that they will be acquired at that

rate.

But not for cash, in exchange

0:37:230:37:30

for government bonds?

They are still

in that strong position of having

0:37:300:37:33

the value fully reflected. What is

happening is that not everybody is a

0:37:330:37:38

shareholder. It means there is

greater equity for all of the

0:37:380:37:43

population, not only an narrow

segment of it, surely that has got

0:37:430:37:46

to be for the benefit of everybody.

Thank you for talking to us.

0:37:460:37:52

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:37:520:37:54

Still to come:

0:37:540:37:55

We'll look at the implications

to the charity sector of the latest

0:37:550:37:58

allegations of sexual abuse

involving Oxfam staff

0:37:580:38:00

and the government's

promise to get tough.

0:38:000:38:00

Welcome to Sunday Politics Wales. In

a few moments, is the party over for

0:38:140:38:20

Ukip? Or will next week was that

meeting marked a new beginning.

0:38:200:38:24

Their leader in Wales, Neil

Hamilton, will be here live. But

0:38:240:38:29

first, one of Wales's top criminal

barristers says the criminal justice

0:38:290:38:33

system has hit a crisis point.

Andrew Taylor says problems over

0:38:330:38:37

disclosure of evidence and a major

forensic provider going to the wall

0:38:370:38:40

has caused a crisis of confidence.

He wants this -- warned this may

0:38:400:38:46

lead to guilty people going free and

innocent people being locked up.

0:38:460:38:52

The criminal justice system is a

complex machine. As many parts

0:38:520:38:55

working together to uphold the rule

of law, making sure the guilty end

0:38:550:39:00

up behind bars of the innocent go

free. But it is a system that is in

0:39:000:39:03

crisis. So says Andrew Taylor. He

spent decades as a barrister, acting

0:39:030:39:13

as defence and many high-profile

cases from sexual offences to

0:39:130:39:15

murder.

When I was qualifying as a barrister

0:39:150:39:17

many years ago, a very famous judge

said there was not a better country

0:39:170:39:22

in the world in which to be

arrested. In other words, we should

0:39:220:39:27

have confidence in the police, the

judges, the courts and the criminal

0:39:270:39:30

justice system. I think that was

well founded.

0:39:300:39:34

But I think, if you was around

today, he would have second

0:39:340:39:38

thoughts. And his main concern is

disclosure. The duty on police and

0:39:380:39:43

prosecutors to disclose evidence to

defence lawyers. Liam Allen had the

0:39:430:39:46

case against him dropped police

failed to disclose key evidence in

0:39:460:39:48

his rape trial.

I have come across on occasions to

0:39:480:39:54

numerous for me to specify what we

have been writing to the police and

0:39:540:39:59

the CPS, time after time, saying my

client says that you will find

0:39:590:40:03

evidence on a phone, you will find

evidence on social media. Very

0:40:030:40:06

often, we're told, well, we've

looked and we can't find it. Do you

0:40:060:40:12

really expect us to go trawling

through 4000 text messages or 400

0:40:120:40:17

hours of CCTV?

Now the woman in charge has ordered

0:40:170:40:24

an urgent review of all rape and

serious assault cases in Wales and

0:40:240:40:26

England.

It is a crisis for all sorts of

0:40:260:40:30

reasons and judges are warning now,

if we don't do something about it,

0:40:300:40:35

juries may very well decide, we

can't really convicted this person

0:40:350:40:38

because we can't be sure that the

police have done their job properly

0:40:380:40:42

and every piece of evidence has

properly been reviewed.

0:40:420:40:44

Just over a week ago one of the

largest private forensic providers

0:40:440:40:52

went bust. It oversaw 2000 cases of

30 forces including rape, murder and

0:40:520:40:57

serious drug crime. It covered

everything from DNA to drug testing.

0:40:570:41:01

Andrew Taylor said, the fallout

could not be more serious. Those

0:41:010:41:05

cases are going to be delayed. It

may well be that she exhibits are

0:41:050:41:07

lost or destroyed. It will delay

justice and still nine justice for

0:41:070:41:15

many people.

The former Labour crime and police

0:41:150:41:17

Minister now wants answers from

ministers.

We don't know what is

0:41:170:41:20

going to happen to the work they do.

That is about DNA, it's about

0:41:200:41:25

evidence, it's about murders

committed about domestic violence,

0:41:250:41:27

it's about burglary evidence.

We don't know what's happening to

0:41:270:41:31

that. The Home Office is to

supporting and working closely with

0:41:310:41:34

police to accept into temporarily

banned the forensic work and protect

0:41:340:41:38

live cases.

But there was something else that is

0:41:380:41:40

worrying barristers. With Government

cuts to both the police, the CPS, to

0:41:400:41:46

legal aid and to general funding

across the board in terms of

0:41:460:41:49

probation, and outside agencies and

feed into the system, the system is

0:41:490:41:56

not so much creaking, I think, as

almost coming to the point where we

0:41:560:42:01

can't cope any more.

This very issue made top billing at

0:42:010:42:04

Prime Minister's Questions this

week.

During the period the Prime

0:42:040:42:11

Minister was Home Secretary 2.3

billion was cut from police budgets.

0:42:110:42:17

These spectra of Constabulary warns

neighbourhood policing risks being

0:42:170:42:19

eroded and the shortage of

detectives is at a national crisis.

0:42:190:42:25

Does the Prime Minister think the

Inspectorate are scaremongering?

0:42:250:42:28

This is a Government that is

protecting police budgets. I would

0:42:280:42:31

like to remind the Right Honourable

gentleman that the Labour Party's

0:42:310:42:34

former Shadow Home Secretary, now

the police and crime commission of

0:42:340:42:40

Greater Manchester, himself said

that the police could take up to 10%

0:42:400:42:44

cut in their budgets.

Whilst attempted child, MP Mr Davies

0:42:440:42:50

is a former police officer.

Small money is not the answer. I

0:42:500:42:55

don't think it is at crisis point at

all. Criminal Justice is growing

0:42:550:42:57

through system, is going through a

period now some difficulty. And I

0:42:570:43:03

think that is more down to the

organisations that work within it as

0:43:030:43:06

opposed to any sort of funding issue

that people like to think or alleges

0:43:060:43:13

happening.

So it is not down to funding cuts?

0:43:130:43:16

No, I don't get is down to funding

cuts. I think some of the issues

0:43:160:43:19

that we have these days with

disclosure, and we've seen it in

0:43:190:43:24

some of the rape cases, that is more

a training issue.

0:43:240:43:29

You will find perhaps in the

long-term the conviction rate

0:43:290:43:32

dropping, less being charged, and a

dual crisis of innocent people going

0:43:320:43:39

to prison while guilty walk away.

And many more across the system are

0:43:390:43:42

warning that if the Government

doesn't action now, the cogs may

0:43:420:43:44

stop turning.

We've all heard the argument that

0:43:440:43:50

Wales could make more of her natural

resources in terms of generating

0:43:500:43:55

energy. In a lecture this week

Professor Calvin Jones from Calvin

0:43:550:44:00

University will be talking about

what options are practical and

0:44:000:44:03

beneficial to local people. When I

met him I asked whether capitalising

0:44:030:44:05

on these resources with a view to

making a profit on the energy they

0:44:050:44:08

create, was possible.

It is very difficult to imagine a

0:44:080:44:14

situation where you had a very large

Welsh owned company, muscling have a

0:44:140:44:24

presence in keeping some of that

money locally. In the fashion that

0:44:240:44:26

we did years ago. So, you know, yes,

it is feasible that we did have a

0:44:260:44:33

publicly owned nuclear power

station. There was not enough money

0:44:330:44:38

in Wales to make that happen so, you

know, we will probably be stuck for

0:44:380:44:42

something which, even if it is not

private, will be guaranteed at UK

0:44:420:44:46

level. In many of the best sites

have already been snapped up by

0:44:460:44:55

internationally owned firms. That is

not much left, really, for the

0:44:550:44:57

public to get involved in for Welsh

companies to get involved.

0:44:570:45:02

What would your message be to

politicians who say we need more

0:45:020:45:07

tidal lagoons, even. Need to be

generating the energy. As we could

0:45:070:45:11

be, you know, we could be making the

most of that.

0:45:110:45:15

What would your message be? You need

to think very carefully about what

0:45:150:45:19

sorts of benefits you expect from

the those so, yes, when you have

0:45:190:45:22

big, new capital investments such as

the lagoon or such, get lots of jobs

0:45:220:45:29

while it is being built. Then, once

it's built, they will be a few

0:45:290:45:37

hundred jobs, maybe. The nuclear

power station will have a few

0:45:370:45:39

hundred jobs in it. The lagoon have

a few dozen jobs looking after it,

0:45:390:45:42

probably. So, all right, a few

hundred jobs is important. Our

0:45:420:45:51

research recently suggested that

their appropriate moves a couple of

0:45:510:45:53

thousand people working in it across

Wales. Got a workforce of something

0:45:530:46:00

around 1 million people is a couple

of thousand is nothing. See would

0:46:000:46:03

get the employment benefits in the

long term that you might hope for.

0:46:030:46:06

Some sectors, lagoon is one, give

you the possibility of innovation

0:46:060:46:12

and are indeed benefits which we

might be at able to catch in Wales.

0:46:120:46:17

Different from nuclear where all the

Air India and all the IP is held

0:46:170:46:23

outside the UK let alone Wales. So

for lagoon you can imagine, tied

0:46:230:46:27

lagoon could be persuaded to let an

equity to the Welsh Government in

0:46:270:46:32

return for some sort of financial

assistance. In holding company, not

0:46:320:46:35

this one. So if it was part owned by

the Welsh Government or some other

0:46:350:46:41

Welsh entity then you could see the

possibility, of being a part of the

0:46:410:46:49

cluster. The Iraqi number of

opportunities that I think. But

0:46:490:46:55

think ownership is key. Only some of

this stuff and this capital is the

0:46:550:47:02

first stage to exploiting those

benefits.

0:47:020:47:08

One of the other point I been

reading of the last few days is Uber

0:47:080:47:14

talking about since devolution, on

the UK level, things have not

0:47:140:47:24

differently.

0:47:240:47:34

It is not necessarily by design. But

I think a few things have coalesced

0:47:350:47:40

and in Cardiff, as it was already,

it was the most important city in

0:47:400:47:45

Wales. And when you take a new

institution which, because of the

0:47:450:47:51

way the initial devolution act, had

to take responsibility effectively

0:47:510:47:57

from below. The UK Government did

not give the Welsh Assembly

0:47:570:48:01

Government much at the start under

Assembly much to do. It became like

0:48:010:48:03

a big local authority. So a decision

floating at Cardiff and other

0:48:030:48:09

places. If you combine that, with

the devolution settlement, which is

0:48:090:48:14

changing slowly, with a political

context which is very insecure,

0:48:140:48:23

which may be doesn't want power to

go beyond Cardiff Bay once it comes

0:48:230:48:27

down from Westminster or comes up.

When you get a situation where, you

0:48:270:48:29

can have a strong political call to

Wales, and there was debate over

0:48:290:48:37

where the Assembly should go and we

did some work on this in the late

0:48:370:48:40

90s about where we would put an

Assembly in Cardiff. On top of that

0:48:400:48:43

what you get is, I mean, I remember

a similar discussion about where the

0:48:430:48:48

new millennium Stadium should go.

There are several options we were

0:48:480:48:51

looking at. But it ended up in

Cardiff. And when you lay on top of

0:48:510:48:54

that a new, obviously museums and

galleries, the site in Cardiff,

0:48:540:49:05

organisations moving from North

Cardiff, the periphery of Wales,

0:49:050:49:07

North Cardiff, down to the centre of

Wales in the centre of the square,

0:49:070:49:12

and you lay top public investment on

top of the strong economic

0:49:120:49:19

infrastructure in the city, they

tend to be in Cardiff. So you lay

0:49:190:49:29

those things on top of what you have

is, in where's me think of Wales as

0:49:290:49:35

the country, it looks more like the

UK than it does somewhere like

0:49:350:49:40

Switzerland, which are separate

financial and economic and political

0:49:400:49:45

centres. Germany which is very

strong Southern economic heart of

0:49:450:49:47

Berlin and bond, the capital cities

of recent times in the North. The

0:49:470:49:52

US, game, Washington, New York, Los

Angeles. We look like Paris and

0:49:520:49:57

France the UK. That is the point.

What does that do? You think, in

0:49:570:50:04

Wales, does seem strange that to the

North there is not a single national

0:50:040:50:08

institution. Nothing north of the

National library.

0:50:080:50:18

Maybe the football Museum. We might

get.

But what does that do, do you

0:50:180:50:26

think? The idea people, people in

the North, who think, as you've been

0:50:260:50:29

saying, it all goes down to goes

down to the south.

0:50:290:50:32

I have lots of arguments about this

because there is a point of view

0:50:320:50:36

that says that, Wales are so small

that you have to put all your eggs

0:50:360:50:40

in the Cardiff basket because that

is the only way we can get

0:50:400:50:42

visibility and get noticed. And then

there is a kind of trend of thought

0:50:420:50:48

that says that actually, spreading

national institutions, spreading

0:50:480:50:53

activity will generally around Wales

is more important. Those things are

0:50:530:50:55

very different to reconcile. It

comes down to a value judgment on

0:50:550:51:00

what I think it comes down to is

whether you think it matters if

0:51:000:51:03

Wales gets noticed or not. That is a

very subtle thing because it doesn't

0:51:030:51:11

matter if the London media talk

about Wales? Doesn't matter if big

0:51:110:51:16

factories, big investors around the

world look around and don't notice

0:51:160:51:18

doesn't matter if we're on various

other world stages? My attitude has

0:51:180:51:23

always been, if we get, domestic

stuff right, from run the country

0:51:230:51:25

properly, if we develop a

functioning set of Welsh identities

0:51:250:51:31

which we can genuinely sign up to in

terms of... Because the Welsh are

0:51:310:51:35

all different we can all do with the

Scots seem to do. If you make that

0:51:350:51:43

work can become confident and that

would get noticed for own merits

0:51:430:51:45

rather than trying to get noticed

because of the flashes of our

0:51:450:51:51

buildings, which are victimising

Cardiff, when you look at it now

0:51:510:51:53

underway Cardiff has developed, it

has become a very generic property

0:51:530:51:59

led development story. There's not

much in Cardiff now that looks

0:51:590:52:02

distinctive of different in terms of

other cities in the UK. And those

0:52:020:52:06

divisions, there has been debate

obviously in the region and how that

0:52:060:52:11

should work, it comes down to a

value judgment. Economic theory,

0:52:110:52:16

economic evidence won't really tell

you which one works. Because

0:52:160:52:19

countries are all different and you

have two decide which one of those

0:52:190:52:23

divisions you feel more akin to.

Plenty to think about two with

0:52:230:52:27

Professor Alvin Jones from Cardiff

University. You give us had a torrid

0:52:270:52:30

time of it recently both that a UK

wide level and perhaps here in

0:52:300:52:33

Wales, too. The British party will

have extraordinary general meeting

0:52:330:52:38

next week to discuss the position of

the leader, Henry Bolton. He refused

0:52:380:52:41

to quit last month despite being

told to go by the party befuddling

0:52:410:52:46

committee. Will things kick off

again or will we enter a period of

0:52:460:52:53

calm? Ukip's Wales and Welsh leader

is Neil Hamilton. What we think of

0:52:530:52:58

next week in what will happen to

Henry Bolton who was on the Andrew

0:52:580:53:01

Marr and grant this morning, defied

Camille stand up to, he would try

0:53:010:53:04

and stay on as leader.

Do you think you can? It depends who

0:53:040:53:11

turns up at this extraordinary

general meeting in Birmingham. There

0:53:110:53:13

are people who live in far-flung

places you'll find it difficult to

0:53:130:53:21

get there. Almost MEP, lots of

branch chairman is, and members are

0:53:210:53:29

against him. I don't see how we can

survive and it is a great shame that

0:53:290:53:32

he is continued.

Why is him as delusional? He thinks

0:53:320:53:37

he can survive by vote of the

members but I don't think he is

0:53:370:53:41

going to be successful in that boat.

And it is most unfortunate that

0:53:410:53:47

we've had this merry-go-round farce

entirely because of his private life

0:53:470:53:54

which he continues to launder

public.

0:53:540:53:55

Other than his private life, would

you be happy with him or would you

0:53:550:54:03

be happy?

It is inconceivable. Because the

0:54:030:54:08

leader measure of followers. And

when all your elected members of

0:54:080:54:17

Aberdeen stew, see what is left to

lead.

0:54:170:54:22

He would be your sixth in a year.

Not quite.

0:54:220:54:28

If you can't Nigel Farage a couple

of times you are on five or six. It

0:54:280:54:33

seems farcical that you are going to

leader after leader after leader and

0:54:330:54:35

doing nothing else, it seems.

This is partly a function of the

0:54:350:54:40

fact that Nigel Farage was a super

dominant leader himself and didn't

0:54:400:54:42

bring on any potential alternatives.

Of another party gone through

0:54:420:54:47

similar structures. Look at the

Tories over the last 20 years. They

0:54:470:54:49

had leader after leader in the early

part of the century.

0:54:490:54:55

Not quite at this rate.

Nevertheless, the point is the same.

0:54:550:54:57

I think that, after next Saturday,

would have somebody like Gerard

0:54:570:55:01

Batten who is the MEP for London and

has been there since 2004, has been

0:55:010:55:09

the Ukip party member since the

party was founded.

0:55:090:55:11

We need a team leader now. It is not

just the leadership, to the point of

0:55:110:55:16

Ukip. Now that you've got Brexit,

peoples into question why is there

0:55:160:55:18

need for Ukip and that's why we're

seeing this turn of leadership,

0:55:180:55:23

because the bizarre to it?

It is certainly true that lobby

0:55:230:55:26

blood left Ukip thinking the job was

done after the referendum. I think

0:55:260:55:29

that is a mistake, as you know, in

elections in Wales in the general

0:55:290:55:32

election we still have a full

programme of domestic policies as

0:55:320:55:38

well. We are very different from all

the other parties and keeping within

0:55:380:55:41

the party will provide the cosy

Cardiff Bay consensus. The only

0:55:410:55:44

party who will oppose expansion of

the Assembly, want tough controls of

0:55:440:55:52

immigration, who once significant

cuts to the aid Budget, he wants to

0:55:520:55:57

democratise the health service, the

only party in Wales who believes in

0:55:570:56:00

grammar schools. There are lots of

things that you could stand for

0:56:000:56:02

quite apart from Brexit.

At the Assembly election you got 13%

0:56:020:56:06

of the vote. Last year were down to

2% of the vote in Wales a law

0:56:060:56:12

student bossing everyone of the 32

constituencies where you stood. You

0:56:120:56:17

may well list the things you want to

achieve the people maybe aren't

0:56:170:56:22

listening.

That is certainly true. We found it

0:56:220:56:24

difficult against all the baffling

noise in the background from Ukip

0:56:240:56:29

central to get our message across.

But I think, with some effective

0:56:290:56:32

leadership, we can show, and at the

Wales is going to be the shop window

0:56:320:56:38

after the MEPs disappear next year,

because the Cardiff Assembly is the

0:56:380:56:42

only parliamentary institution which

you'll then be represented. I think

0:56:420:56:45

we showed, day in and day out in the

Assembly, how effective we can be as

0:56:450:56:48

a professional group.

That is the message read more

0:56:480:56:51

generally. What kind of a I shown to

the rest of Ukip? One member walked

0:56:510:56:57

with the coach were relevant, and

others not joining the group, Gareth

0:56:570:57:03

Bennett been banned from speaking

for a while because of some of the

0:57:030:57:05

comments he made.

As a shop window, it is not ideal,

0:57:050:57:10

is it? I don't agree with you about

that. Nathan Gill took his bat

0:57:100:57:14

because was frustrated ambition for

the want of my job as the leader, my

0:57:140:57:19

colleagues voted for me instead.

You couldn't keep within the fold,

0:57:190:57:21

could you? He resigned. I didn't

force. He chose to become an

0:57:210:57:28

independent of the remaining eight

Ukip member. Mark success obviously

0:57:280:57:31

saw his future more the Conservative

Party. The Tories don't want him.

0:57:310:57:34

They won't allow them to join the

party somebody was going to say the

0:57:340:57:41

-- save his skin that way but he's

been sapping mistaken.

0:57:410:57:43

I don't know whether Mark reckless

would have taken the decision that

0:57:430:57:46

he did if he had realised the

Conservative Party would not allow

0:57:460:57:50

him to join. He naturally assumed

that he would be able to be a

0:57:500:57:53

Conservative candidate.

The point I'm trying to make is, you

0:57:530:57:58

are saying the party in the Assembly

in Wales would be a shop window and

0:57:580:58:01

the point I'm making is, other than

petty squabbling, comments which are

0:58:010:58:05

deemed to be, you know, not what

should be set in the Assembly,

0:58:050:58:11

there's not much to be said about

what Ukip has achieved.

0:58:110:58:15

I don't agree at all about Gareth

Bennett and what Gareth Bennett said

0:58:150:58:18

in the Assembly struck a chord I

think that many people in the wider

0:58:180:58:21

community.

That maybe but it shows that Ukip is

0:58:210:58:25

breaking the Cardiff Bay consensus.

And we will go on breaking that

0:58:250:58:30

consensus as well.

Showing that we're the only party

0:58:300:58:33

that poses political correctness in

all its forms. We heard Henry Bolton

0:58:330:58:36

this morning saying that Ukip, over

the past year, has lost hundreds of

0:58:360:58:40

members every month on a UK level.

Is that something you are seeing in

0:58:400:58:44

Wales as well? It isn't, actually.

Wellesley fight in a domestic

0:58:440:58:49

political conflict. He was appointed

as well because we are in the

0:58:490:58:53

Assembly on a feed every civil day,

articulating the feelings and views

0:58:530:58:57

of people who are not represented by

the other parties. So this is what I

0:58:570:59:01

mean by saying that Ukip will be the

shop window in Wales which looks out

0:59:010:59:04

from the rest of the United Kingdom.

It is very concerned, maybe, that

0:59:040:59:08

the main opportunity for Ukip now

will come from a failure of Brexit?

0:59:080:59:12

One thing you don't really want to

see is a failure of Brexit.

0:59:120:59:16

I certainly don't want to see a

failure of Brexit. But isn't that

0:59:160:59:19

the main way back for Ukip on the UK

level.

0:59:190:59:25

I think there was a campaign for a

second referendum it would lead to

0:59:250:59:28

an immediate change. Of course there

will be lots of details on the we

0:59:280:59:32

would be very keen to ensure is not

going to, by the back door, bring us

0:59:320:59:39

Brussels back in the game. Weird to

see the future for Ukip in a

0:59:390:59:43

domestic United Kingdom and the

Welsh context and I believe that

0:59:430:59:45

there a real scope for Ukip because

we are the only party.

0:59:450:59:49

When you look Brexit only see things

like the Treasury forecast saying

0:59:490:59:56

that a hard Brexit could bring Wales

9.5% worse off than it would

0:59:560:59:59

otherwise have been, doesn't worry

you at all about what might be

0:59:591:00:04

happening?

The Treasury is a haunt of

1:00:041:00:05

remainders. There has been

manoeuvres against the Prime

1:00:051:00:07

Minister.

You talk about Ukip been divided,

1:00:071:00:12

look at the Cabinet and they are

squabbling like rats in a sack. On

1:00:121:00:17

something which really matters, the

future of Britain as an independent

1:00:171:00:20

nation. We don't have those couples

inside Ukip on matters of policy.

1:00:201:00:23

All of our problems ultimately go

back to personalities.

1:00:231:00:29

But on the policy issues we are

absolutely united on the need for an

1:00:291:00:33

independent Britain.

Very quickly

then, you'd think after Saturday

1:00:331:00:35

will be there, you'll be voting for

Bolton to be out.

1:00:351:00:40

I will be voting against Henry

Bolton and so will my colleagues.

1:00:401:00:42

Thank you very much for coming in.

We will see how that goes. That is

1:00:421:00:46

it from us. We will take a short

break next week but we are back in a

1:00:461:00:52

fortnight. Wales lives will be here

Wednesday at 10:30pm and you can

1:00:521:00:56

always follow us on Twitter. For

now, that is all from

1:00:561:01:01

always follow us on Twitter. For

now, that is all from me.

1:01:011:01:04

university.

1:01:041:01:05

I said how old is your son?

1:01:051:01:07

She said he hasn't been born yet.

1:01:071:01:08

On that note, that's

all we have time for.

1:01:081:01:10

Thank you very much and thanks

to all of my guests.

1:01:101:01:13

Welcome back. A few minutes ago we

were talking about plans for

1:01:171:01:24

renationalisation, something which

they think is a good vote winning

1:01:241:01:30

policy in these times. Are they

right?

Nationalisation had a boom in

1:01:301:01:37

popularity. It never went out of

favour. Since the bailouts of rail

1:01:371:01:41

companies, since the appalling

things which happen to people who

1:01:411:01:44

have to get a train every day, never

mind just the south-east, it has

1:01:441:01:54

been a nightmare and costs are

ratcheting up. Even the water

1:01:541:02:02

companies are not opposing it. I

think they are pushing at an open

1:02:021:02:05

door and it is a worthwhile thing

for them to do.

John McDonnell says

1:02:051:02:12

it can be done at absolutely no cost

you would have an asset on your

1:02:121:02:17

government books, is that realistic?

No, that is the aspect of it. I can

1:02:171:02:26

see the political logic. That is the

aspect I find most confusing. This

1:02:261:02:33

argument that Parliament rather than

the market dictates the price at

1:02:331:02:37

which the acids is bought, the

signal is not just people who are in

1:02:371:02:41

those industries, the signal list to

all other investors in just about

1:02:411:02:46

everything else. If you start with

certain sectors, what will be

1:02:461:02:51

nationalised next? The impact that

then has on people who are investing

1:02:511:02:54

money in the UK is simply a dawning

realisation that what they have,

1:02:541:02:59

what they own, what they paid for

might be stolen or might be

1:02:591:03:04

discounted.

Labour were fairly clear

in their manifesto, they talked

1:03:041:03:08

about the National Grid, water, rail

and the Royal Mail, nothing else.

As

1:03:081:03:14

someone who has been paying

attention to what John McDonnell and

1:03:141:03:18

Seamus Milne think, I will take

their evidence of what they have

1:03:181:03:23

written and said over the last 30

years rather than what they are

1:03:231:03:26

trying to do now to win an election.

I would not try and extrapolate what

1:03:261:03:33

Labour policy would be over what she

must have said, he has only been

1:03:331:03:38

their communications guide for a few

years, before that he was a Guardian

1:03:381:03:43

columnist.

I'm judging people on

their record of what they have said

1:03:431:03:47

to Andrew Marr, what they have

written and what John McDonnell have

1:03:471:03:50

argued for. I simply question

whether we should accept their

1:03:501:03:58

guarantees when they are trying to

bargain their way into power.

1:03:581:04:03

Listen, nobody, it is something

which only happens to this lot of

1:04:031:04:07

Labour leaders, that if people

cannot critique the policy they

1:04:071:04:11

suggest, then critique what they

perceive to be the nefarious under

1:04:111:04:14

policy. The truth is, when we talk

about privatising industries we used

1:04:141:04:23

to talk about that, we never talked

about the outrageous bailouts they

1:04:231:04:27

would need, we never talked about

what they would do to actual costs,

1:04:271:04:31

we just talked about this in terms

of principle, do you want this

1:04:311:04:37

privatised with efficiency or

nationalised?

There problems with

1:04:371:04:42

some things that now Margaret

Thatcher would not say that was the

1:04:421:04:45

original intention. However, she and

those around her were completely

1:04:451:04:50

clear and explicit about that they

were prepared to privatise almost

1:04:501:04:54

everything. They were unambiguous.

The fairest possible reading of the

1:04:541:05:01

way Thatcher went about it is she

did not know how bad it would be.

1:05:011:05:05

She went into privatisation with the

explicit agenda of more British

1:05:051:05:09

people owning shares in industries

and when she went into it, 40% of

1:05:091:05:14

people own shares, 12 years later

12% did.

We will need to leave it

1:05:141:05:20

there and move on.

1:05:201:05:21

The charity Oxfam has said

it was "dismayed by what happened"

1:05:211:05:24

after the accusations of sexual

exploitation by its aid workers

1:05:241:05:26

and now the government has said

it's going to get tough.

1:05:261:05:29

I'm going to afford them the

opportunity to talk to me tomorrow,

1:05:291:05:32

but I'm broke clear, it does not

matter if you have got a

1:05:321:05:37

whistle-blower hotline, it does not

matter if you have got good

1:05:371:05:40

safeguarding practices in place, if

the moral leadership at the top of

1:05:401:05:44

the organisation is not there, then

we cannot have you as a partner.

1:05:441:05:49

That was Penny Mordaunt talking

specifically about Oxfam against

1:05:491:05:53

whom there have been allegations

this week. This could have

1:05:531:05:57

implications for the aid sector

generally?

Yes, and that is what

1:05:571:06:01

Penny Mordaunt said that donors

would be put off by the likes of

1:06:011:06:05

giving to Oxfam because they

1:06:051:06:11

giving to Oxfam because they have no

idea where their money is being used

1:06:151:06:17

at the end of it. The thought that

your good hard earned cash could be

1:06:171:06:20

subsidising Oxfam executives sexual

peccadilloes, at -- abusing the

1:06:201:06:23

people they are supposed to be

helping is not good. Penny Mordaunt

1:06:231:06:34

said we should all have done more.

Where this seems to be going as who

1:06:341:06:39

knew what? Furthermore, who was

happy to cover up what for the

1:06:391:06:44

greater good? If you shine a

spotlight on abuse will it kill off

1:06:441:06:48

the Holborn I'm concept of

international aid.

Oxfam does a lot

1:06:481:06:53

of good around the world.

Huge

amounts of good. Why would you want

1:06:531:06:57

to kill off a productive good

charity because of some horrendous

1:06:571:07:01

abuse going on? The political damage

for the government and we need to be

1:07:011:07:07

very careful, there are parallels

with for example the northern Asian

1:07:071:07:13

sexual grooming scandal. How much

was a blind eye turned to these

1:07:131:07:19

politically sensitive subject so the

greater good, for example racial

1:07:191:07:23

harmony, was not damaged? That will

be huge thing to unpick.

Tom was

1:07:231:07:29

talking about the damage of donors

who donate to charities but defeat,

1:07:291:07:35

the government, committed huge

amount of

1:07:351:07:41

amount of money -- DFID. Not

everyone is happy about this. Will

1:07:421:07:46

this be used as a debate about

international aid?

I think it is

1:07:461:07:49

being used as a way to reopen

debate. It should be remembered that

1:07:491:07:58

sexual predators use organisations.

They used boarding schools, the

1:07:581:08:00

church and aid programmes. They use

places with high vulnerability to

1:08:001:08:06

the sexual predators. Notably says

let's close down the church. It is

1:08:061:08:10

mistaken to say this is a taint on

the entire aid industry when the aid

1:08:101:08:16

industry by its nature would attract

some predatory behaviour. It is much

1:08:161:08:20

more important to have the

conversation about how

1:08:201:08:24

institutionally you prevent and deal

with the predatory behaviour rather

1:08:241:08:27

than turn a spotlight on the aid

industry than they should we have

1:08:271:08:31

any aid which is the wrong question

and has a completely obvious answer,

1:08:311:08:36

yes we should.

But if that is right,

if we extend that level of

1:08:361:08:40

understanding to Oxfam because it

does

1:08:401:08:47

does good work, why is that not

extended to the controversial

1:08:471:08:50

Presidents club a few weeks ago

which is now effectively shutdown

1:08:501:08:51

and people have given the money

back?

Iain, the Presidents club,

1:08:511:08:56

there are people in Oxfam who are

not using sex workers unlike the

1:08:561:09:00

Presidents club.

There were people

at that dinner who were not engaged

1:09:001:09:05

in the activity that the FDA accused

a few people.

But they were all

1:09:051:09:10

sitting there in an all male dinner

-- the FT accused people.

I am not

1:09:101:09:20

defending people.

We cannot finish

the programme without returning to

1:09:201:09:23

the topic we are always talking

about and we have always been

1:09:231:09:29

talking about, Brexit.

1:09:291:09:35

talking about, Brexit. We will hear

from some other Cabinet ministers.

1:09:361:09:40

Explain the choreography of the

talks.

The government have come

1:09:401:09:45

under pressure for not saying enough

about the decisions. Boris Johnson

1:09:451:09:52

made it clear he would make his own

speech on the case for a liberal

1:09:521:09:56

Brexit, whatever that ends up

meaning. Now we learn today that it

1:09:561:10:01

will not just be Boris, it will be a

whole is of other Cabinet ministers

1:10:011:10:07

making a useful contribution in

terms of speeches, David Davis,

1:10:071:10:10

David Liddington, Liam Fox and

Theresa May finally at the end of

1:10:101:10:14

this long list.

Not Philip Hammond

or any of the arch Remainers?

They

1:10:141:10:21

don't do Brexit central jobs. You

expect the Brexit ministers

1:10:211:10:25

themselves to do that.

I do not

agree with that at all.

What is

1:10:251:10:30

interesting is, were they always

going to do this or has the entirety

1:10:301:10:36

of government, now the dog is being

whacked by the tail, just to make

1:10:361:10:39

Boris Johnson... They have to give

him great cover by surrounding him

1:10:391:10:48

by others also making speeches.

What

a shocking waste of parliamentary

1:10:481:10:54

time this is?

At least we are

hearing from someone.

The pattern

1:10:541:11:00

with speech-making is somebody comes

out and says something and then

1:11:001:11:04

Number Ten immediately slapped them

down. You cannot listen to the thing

1:11:041:11:08

you think you are listening to

because you have no idea whether it

1:11:081:11:12

will be contradicted the day after.

Like Philip Hammond in Davos where

1:11:121:11:16

he said we would only diverged

moderately from the EU and then

1:11:161:11:20

Number Ten contradicted him.

And the

idea that Philip Hammond is not a

1:11:201:11:26

key Brexit Minister, the impact of

this is predominantly economic and

1:11:261:11:29

he is the Chancellor of the

Exchequer. Of course he is a Brexit

1:11:291:11:33

Minister.

They are quite worried

about the Remainers and they are

1:11:331:11:37

really worried about Jacob Rees-Mogg

and the hard Brexit faction who

1:11:371:11:41

could really bring down the Prime

Minister tomorrow if they wanted to.

1:11:411:11:46

And at some point, when the Prime

Minister fleshes out in a little bit

1:11:461:11:49

more detail her vision, she cannot

keep Anna Soubry and Jacob Rees-Mogg

1:11:491:11:57

happy. Both of them have been vocal

this week and then the serious

1:11:571:12:00

problem in the Tory party?

Someone

will have to compromise at some

1:12:001:12:05

point. The hardest Brexiteers have

to get real and they have to realise

1:12:051:12:08

they have most of what they wanted.

If you said almost two years ago

1:12:081:12:13

that the UK would definitely be

leaving all the key institutions of

1:12:131:12:17

the EU, definitely be leaving the

single market, definitely be leaving

1:12:171:12:20

the customs union with a grey area

at around the customs agreement,

1:12:201:12:24

that is something that I think a lot

of pro-Brexit people have accepted

1:12:241:12:30

and pocketed as a good result.

But

the Jacob Rees-Mogg faction of the

1:12:301:12:35

party sound very unhappy about the

direction of travel and they are

1:12:351:12:39

complaining about all sorts of

things?

But what is difficult to

1:12:391:12:43

work out is how much of that is

people positioning to shift the

1:12:431:12:47

argument within Cabinet, outliers

for an argument, so there is not too

1:12:471:12:54

much of a compromise. It is really

all a function of there not being

1:12:541:12:59

leadership and they're not being

someone in charge of the process.

1:12:591:13:05

This is going to have to be, we have

to confront this as a country at

1:13:051:13:11

some point and make a decision and

get on with it one way or another.

1:13:111:13:15

Well when they do, I am sure you

will be here to talk about it.

1:13:151:13:21

That's all for today.

1:13:211:13:23

Parliament's now on recess so I'm

afraid there's no

1:13:231:13:25

Daily or Sunday Politics next week,

however, do join me again a week

1:13:251:13:28

on Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.

1:13:281:13:30

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:301:13:35

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:351:13:35

Sarah Smith and Arwyn Jones with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Sarah examines Labour's renationalisation plans with shadow transport secretary Andy McDonald, and discusses Brexit with Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Labour's Seema Malhotra. The political panel features Tom Newton-Dunn of the Sun, Zoe Williams of the Guardian and commentator Iain Martin.