04/03/2018 Sunday Politics Wales


04/03/2018

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LineFromTo

Morning, everyone, and welcome

to the Sunday Politics.

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I'm Sarah Smith.

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And this is the programme that

will provide your essential briefing

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on everything that's moving

and shaking in the

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world of politics.

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Theresa May's big Brexit speech

appears to have done the impossible

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and united both sides

of her party for the time being

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but is the devil in the detail?

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We'll get the verdicts of former

Tory leader and Brexit supporter

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Lord Howard and leading backbencher

and Remain campaigner Nicky Morgan,

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and ask if they can

really both be happy.

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Away from Brexit, the Government yet

again promises to take on the Nimbys

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and build more houses

where we need them most.

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Later in the programme:

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Carwyn Jones on his visit

to North America and questions

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about his leadership,

and would this programme

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and others be any different

if broadcasting was devolved?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And with me today, I've got three

hardy souls who've struggled

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through the harsh conditions

to help me to make sense of all

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the big stories - Isabel Oakeshott,

Steve Richards and Anushka Asthana.

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Well, it was as week where politics

was often given second billing

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to the weather, with people up

and down the country battling

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the Beast from the East.

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But snow or not, Theresa May had her

crucial Brexit speech to give,

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and she had a few big beasts herself

to contend with.

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Forget the weather, the UK faced

a Brexit blizzard this week.

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On Monday, Jeremy Corbyn offered up

a clear dividing line between Labour

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and the Conservatives.

in a customs union with the EU.

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Labour would seek to negotiate

a new, comprehensive UK EU customs

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union to ensure there are no

tariffs with Europe.

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On Tuesday, international

trade secretary Liam Fox

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immediately hit back.

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It would be a complete sell-out

of Britain's national interest

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and a betrayal of the voters

in the referendum.

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But his speech was overshadowed

by a warning shot from the former

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boss of his own department -

Sir Martin Donnelly said leaving

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the single market and the customs

union would risk the UK

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going from feast to famine.

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It's like giving up a three course

meal for a packet of crisps.

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Also on Tuesday, Foreign Secretary

Boris Johnson took to the radio

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waves to try to ease tensions

on Northern Ireland after Brexit.

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He wasn't entirely persuasive.

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There's no border between

Camden and Westminster.

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You can't compare two boroughs

of London with the kind

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of difference in the arrangements

that would be in place after Brexit

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between the UK and the EU.

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I think it's a very

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On Wednesday, former

Prime Minister Sir John Major said

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MPs should be given a free vote

on the final Brexit deal.

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So let Parliament decide or put

the issue back to the people.

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And the EU Commission published

the first legal draft

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of the UK's exit treaty.

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The proposals were controversial.

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in the customs union

if all else fails.

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Theresa May was having none of it.

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No UK Prime Minister

could ever agree to it.

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On Thursday, diplomatic niceties

with the European Council

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President Donald Tusk,

as he got a preview of the Prime

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Minister's big Brexit speech.

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But the real test would come later,

when she would need a lot

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of grit to keep all members

of her own party onside.

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The big day arrived,

and with it some hard truths.

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We are leaving the single market.

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We are leaving the single market.

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In certain ways, our access to each

other's markets will be

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less than it is now.

left the jurisdiction

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of the European Court of Justice,

EU law and the decisions of the ECJ

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will continue to affect us.

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This was also a pitch

for a pick and mix Brexit.

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She said all EU trade deals

are tailor-made and what Britain

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wants is no different.

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If this is cherry picking,

then every trade arrangement

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is cherry picking.

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He was happy, and so was he.

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Despite being stranded

and left out in the cold.

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So, has the Prime Minister managed

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between her Cabinet on Brexit?

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between her Cabinet on Brexit?

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There is more than enough to chew

over with our expert panel who will

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tell us what's been going on behind

tell us what's been going on behind

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the scenes this week. Anushka, we

asked the question, has she

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the scenes this week. Anushka, we

the impossible and

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the scenes this week. Anushka, we

factions of the Conservative Party

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over Brexit? It looks that way,

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factions of the Conservative Party

it stay that way?

It is impressive

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politically that your guests will

both have some praise for the

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politically that your guests will

but it doesn't mean

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politically that your guests will

each other when it comes to Brexit.

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politically that your guests will

I'm sure there's a lot they continue

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politically that your guests will

to disagree about. She managed to do

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politically that your guests will

that by doubling down on the red

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lines she already had but saying

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that by doubling down on the red

beyond that we will try to

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that by doubling down on the red

close as we can to the EU. I don't

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think the Brexiteers are totally

think the Brexiteers are totally

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happy, they see this as a staging

post and happy that what she said

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future parliaments can change it.

She has done a magic trick now but

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future parliaments can change it.

trouble ahead still.

Isabel, a lot

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of it was how in the

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trouble ahead still.

Isabel, a lot

future we will stay tangibly similar

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to EU rules and regulations, that

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future we will stay tangibly similar

won't hold with the

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future we will stay tangibly similar

will it?

Only an idiot would predict

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future we will stay tangibly similar

peace and harmony within the Tory

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party for more than a few days.

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party for more than a few days. I

think they recognise the immense

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party for more than a few days. I

discipline the Prime Minister

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injected into the speech, in some

ways that means bits of it don't

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please everybody. There was

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ways that means bits of it don't

frustration at the way she handled

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some of the questions afterwards.

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frustration at the way she handled

Some would have liked her, for

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frustration at the way she handled

example Nigel Farage, outside of the

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party of course, would have

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example Nigel Farage, outside of the

her to be more explicit that no deal

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remains an

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her to be more explicit that no deal

hand, had she said that, that is

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provocative. I think

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hand, had she said that, that is

she struck a balance and a great

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feeling of positivity this weekend,

maybe not next.

Steve, did it tell

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us a huge amount about what Brexit

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maybe not next.

Steve, did it tell

deal might look like? Or is Theresa

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maybe not next.

Steve, did it tell

May sitting on the fence about what

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May sitting on the fence about what

the future deal will be?

I don't

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think she is sitting on the fence.

think she is sitting on the fence.

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She gave a clear idea of what she

envisages it to be. Watching it, and

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reading it several times, I have

reached the conclusion that she is

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reading it several times, I have

the only person that can lead this

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party.

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You have Michael Howard on in a

minute, you knows how difficult

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You have Michael Howard on in a

is to do. She can do it and I think

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they would be

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is to do. She can do it and I think

her. However, having read the

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is to do. She can do it and I think

bombs metaphorically

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is to do. She can do it and I think

the budgets that go down well on the

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day and then turn out to have hidden

bombs, I think this one does. In

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day and then turn out to have hidden

admission we are giving up things,

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we won't have the same market

access, in saying we have given up

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passporting

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access, in saying we have given up

services already. She did it to show

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access, in saying we have given up

we weren't having our cake and

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access, in saying we have given up

eating it, she was honest, but it is

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depressing to have that candour

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eating it, she was honest, but it is

explained so clearly. And in

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explaining we will be fully aligned

with the EU in many ways but have

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the right to diverged even if it is

against our interest. And the all of

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the right to diverged even if it is

this, to have the right to

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the right to diverged even if it is

at a future date seems fraught with

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the right to diverged even if it is

difficulty. I see problems down

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road.

Steve's point about only this

Prime Minister can lead the party is

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a very astute one and that's what

a very astute one and that's what

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I'm picking up this weekend, even

from those who have been her

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I'm picking up this weekend, even

harshest critics, at her ability not

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to say too much which makes her seem

to say too much which makes her seem

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rather boring at times is precisely

the reason she can manage these

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delicate factions. I definitely feel

time has run out now for those who

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would like to have seen her gone

well before Brexit next year. I feel

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would like to have seen her gone

that has evaporated milk. We might

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be in a different place in a few

months but I would suspect not.

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Anushka bitchy answer the question

about the border between the

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Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon

Coveney said he's not sure the

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Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon

can support

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Republic and Northern Ireland? Simon

with.

Both sides can smile and say

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they don't want a border, the

question is how you achieve that.

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they don't want a border, the

The Government have put forward

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these options, a customs partnership

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The Government have put forward

which is a slightly weird system

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The Government have put forward

under which there would be checks on

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the UK border that would then be

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under which there would be checks on

acceptable for the rest of the

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under which there would be checks on

The problem is the rest of the EU

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have suggested that won't be

acceptable to them, and even very

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senior figures in Government around

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acceptable to them, and even very

the Cabinet table have told me they

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acceptable to them, and even very

think it is a completely unrealistic

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option. The second option is to use

technology to make it flow freely,

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perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson

was suggesting, it happens in the

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perhaps not quite as Boris Johnson

congestion charge in London. He was

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slightly mocked for those

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but can there be a way to make it

softer in that way?

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but can there be a way to make it

can but there is no evidence

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but can there be a way to make it

would end up with no border. Then

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would end up with no border. Then

there's that tricky situation of the

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EU saying the backstop is Northern

Ireland stays in the customs union,

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and the Prime Minister says that is

unacceptable.

Thank you for that,

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stay with

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Theresa May was on the

Andrew Marr Show this

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morning, and she was asked how

the UK's rules and regulations

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might move away from

the EU's in the future.

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Parliament will be able to take

decisions about the rules that

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are set, so in the circumstances

in which the EU

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change a particular rule,

there'd be a decision

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for us to take.

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Did we accept it

in the future or not?

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But if we didn't accept it,

there'd be an arbitration mechanism,

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an independent arbitration

mechanism, so people

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would look at it and say,

actually, you know what,

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if the UK doesn't accept that,

does it make any difference

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to the trading relationship?

so there's no consequence.

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They might say yes, it does,

and so there would be a consequence.

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So you're saying we might

lose market access -

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the more we diverge,

the more market access

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we might lose in the future.

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There'd be a decision to be taken.

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Joining me now from

Loughborough is the former

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Education Secretary Nicky Morgan,

who put her name down on a Commons

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amendment that calls for the UK

to participate in a customs union

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with the EU after Brexit.

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Good morning. So you heard

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Good morning. So you heard the Prime

Minister ruling out a customs

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Good morning. So you heard the Prime

which is what you say you want, and

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Good morning. So you heard the Prime

they will be less access to EU

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markets in future, you cannot be

very happy with this speech, can

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you?

I thought it was a very

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very happy with this speech, can

realistic speech that set out the

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compromises and hard facts we have

to face, and I think it was a

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to face, and I think it was a

welcome dose of realism. That's why

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to face, and I think it was a

I think it has been welcomed

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to face, and I think it was a

people on all sides of the debate

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people on all sides of the debate

because we can get

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people on all sides of the debate

pretending things will stay the

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same, that we can have the same

benefits, and be

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same, that we can have the same

ourselves and our constituents about

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what that means. The reason MPs put

down amendments is to get ministers

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to explain their position is more

fully and that's what we began to

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see in the Prime Minister's speech

on this issue of the border between

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Northern Ireland, the

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on this issue of the border between

Ireland on Friday. The Prime

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Ireland on Friday. The Prime

Minister could not have been more

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clear this morning and last week

that she does not want to see a hard

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border between them, and that's

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that she does not want to see a hard

where we are as well. I think there

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are more discussions to come about

the two options, as Anushka was

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are more discussions to come about

setting out, that the Prime Minister

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outlined, and we will have to see

outlined, and we will have to see

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what happens when the bill comes

back to the

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what happens when the bill comes

amendment wasn't just about Northern

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Ireland, it said you want the UK to

stay in the customs union with the

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EU. Now you say you want to talk to

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stay in the customs union with the

the Prime Minister about this. Talk

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about what? We are either in the

customs union or knots and her

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speech made it clear she didn't want

a customs union.

I can speak for

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myself and my colleagues, many of

myself and my colleagues, many of

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whom put their name down, it was

about the Irish border issue because

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many of us got to the stage of

thinking how can this be resolved

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without being in a customs union. I

think many of us don't care what

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without being in a customs union. I

is called, it's a question of what

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without being in a customs union. I

it does. Does it avoid a hard border

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and small traders having to make

declarations each time they crossed

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and small traders having to make

the border? I was a Treasury duties

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and small traders having to make

minister, I visited the Irish border

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and it is 300 miles of incredibly

porous countryside basically. People

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are crossing it everyday for work,

for trading, and it's not just about

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the economics, it's about the

cultural and political significance

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of not a hard border.

The Irish

government and Irish Foreign

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government and Irish Foreign

Minister Simon Coveney were

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government and Irish Foreign

this morning he didn't think EU

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would accept this. Theresa May said

a long she doesn't want a hard

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border, just saying that doesn't

mean it won't happen and the EU

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don't seem satisfied with what she

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mean it won't happen and the EU

laid out as a possible solution.

The

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mean it won't happen and the EU

first point is, as I said in a tweet

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on Friday, the EU cannot say and

Simon Coveney recognise that this

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morning, the EU cannot say it

doesn't know what the UK Government

0:14:410:14:46

wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as

the Prime Minister rightly set out,

0:14:460:14:53

wants. Simon Coveney also agreed, as

this is a problem that has been

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created by Brexit and it's up to the

UK Government, the EU and Irish

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government to work together to find

a solution. I think it

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government to work together to find

talks will continue in one of those

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areas where it is best for the Irish

areas where it is best for the Irish

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government and UK Government to be

talking directly because at

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government and UK Government to be

moment what's been remarkable is how

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cohesive the 27 have been in

cohesive the 27 have been

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negotiating through the commission

but there may be ways to speed up

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discussions, particularly on the

Irish border issue. What we

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discussions, particularly on the

Friday is the Prime Minister saying

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there's difficult things ahead.

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Friday is the Prime Minister saying

People won't remember ultimately the

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negotiations, they will remember the

enduring deal that's struck, that

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puts livelihoods and economic

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One of the hard

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One of the hard

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One of the hard

laid out is we will have less access

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laid out is we will have less access

to EU markets. That is

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things that you as a Remainer have

been worried about. Maybe she is

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being pragmatic and you're welcome

being pragmatic and you're welcome

0:15:490:15:51

that, but is that pragmatism not

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being pragmatic and you're welcome

admitting were going to be worse off

0:15:530:15:55

being pragmatic and you're welcome

in future as a result of this?

I

0:15:550:15:58

think it probably is. Actually,

while the speech was well come in

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while the speech was well come in

its towns, it did set out some of

0:16:030:16:06

these hard truths. Some people have

said, nothing will change, it will

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have exactly the same benefits but

0:16:100:16:12

said, nothing will change, it will

that is not the case. I am

0:16:120:16:15

said, nothing will change, it will

the Treasury Select Committee, we

0:16:150:16:17

said, nothing will change, it will

look at financial services. That

0:16:170:16:19

look at financial services. That

industry understands that things are

0:16:190:16:20

industry understands that things are

going to change. The Prime Minister

0:16:200:16:22

was clear, no more passporting.

0:16:220:16:26

going to change. The Prime Minister

People have reconciled themselves to

0:16:260:16:28

this in the city. What next? The

Prime Minister is talking about

0:16:280:16:33

this in the city. What next? The

mutual recognition of

0:16:330:16:33

this in the city. What next? The

that is the way to go, that is

0:16:330:16:38

this in the city. What next? The

achievable, but this is the start of

0:16:380:16:39

negotiations and it is a long way to

0:16:390:16:41

achievable, but this is the start of

go. At least we are now on the

0:16:410:16:43

starting blocks. Your right to say

that many of us have been concerned

0:16:430:16:50

about the prosperity and livelihoods

of people in our constituencies and

0:16:500:16:53

our businesses. We welcome this

speech but we will continue to watch

0:16:530:16:57

out for any drifting backwards

towards some kind of idea logically

0:16:570:17:02

out for any drifting backwards

driven hard Brexit. That does not

0:17:020:17:04

benefit anybody. As the Prime

0:17:040:17:07

driven hard Brexit. That does not

Minister said on Friday, reverting

0:17:070:17:09

to WTO is not a good outcome that

will benefit people in this country.

0:17:090:17:15

The Prime Minister made clear that

The Prime Minister made clear that

0:17:150:17:17

the UK after Brexit can choose

0:17:170:17:19

The Prime Minister made clear that

stay aligned with the rules and

0:17:190:17:20

regulations of the EU or future

regulations of the EU or future

0:17:200:17:22

parliaments to choose to diverged.

In those circumstances you will be

0:17:220:17:26

fighting every step of

0:17:260:17:28

In those circumstances you will be

try to stay aligned with the EU, I

0:17:280:17:30

take it?

Not necessarily. That was a

really well come statement from the

0:17:300:17:36

Prime Minister. It is for the

sovereign parliament to be making

0:17:360:17:39

these decisions in future, which is

why we had the debate

0:17:390:17:45

these decisions in future, which is

amendment in December because

0:17:450:17:45

ultimately it should be sovereign

0:17:450:17:48

amendment in December because

Parliament that makes these key

0:17:480:17:50

decisions in the future. In terms of

divergences regulation, there may

0:17:500:17:53

well be good arguments in the future

by businesses and industry say, we

0:17:530:17:57

do not need to be aligned with that

0:17:570:18:01

by businesses and industry say, we

regulation, because there is a

0:18:010:18:02

by businesses and industry say, we

higher international standard that

0:18:020:18:03

higher international standard that

we can all get around and following

0:18:030:18:05

that will benefit our businesses.

The point is, at the moment,

0:18:050:18:10

Parliament will take decisions about

things on the basis of listening to

0:18:100:18:14

constituents, and that is what will

happen in the future. That is

0:18:140:18:19

welcome. Financial services, that is

0:18:190:18:21

happen in the future. That is

the message we're getting by, there

0:18:210:18:24

are some international standards,

0:18:240:18:26

the message we're getting by, there

which is what business already

0:18:260:18:27

comply with, higher standards than

the EU, and that is what businesses

0:18:270:18:33

want to on complying with.

Nicky

0:18:330:18:35

the EU, and that is what businesses

Morgan, thank you

0:18:350:18:37

Listening to that is the former

Conservative leader Lord Howard,

0:18:370:18:39

who campaigned for Britain

to leave the EU.

0:18:390:18:41

You were nodding away

0:18:410:18:42

You were nodding away

0:18:420:18:43

You were nodding away

with

0:18:430:18:45

You were nodding away

through that interview. Not

0:18:450:18:46

something we thought we were going

0:18:460:18:49

through that interview. Not

to see happen in the studio.

You

0:18:490:18:50

agree with her? I agree with very

much of what she said and I am

0:18:500:18:54

agree with her? I agree with very

delighted to be able

0:18:540:18:57

agree with her? I agree with very

her. Can I just say this about the

0:18:570:18:59

speech on Friday, I thought

0:18:590:19:01

her. Can I just say this about the

should the Prime Minister at her

0:19:010:19:05

best, cam, patient, disciplined.

0:19:050:19:07

should the Prime Minister at her

That is exactly the kind of approach

0:19:070:19:10

should the Prime Minister at her

we need in these negotiations. I

0:19:100:19:12

should the Prime Minister at her

think Steve Richards was right when

0:19:120:19:13

think Steve Richards was right when

he said she is the only person who

0:19:130:19:16

can lead the country through these

negotiations, and she showed her

0:19:160:19:20

negotiations, and she showed her

qualities on Friday, and I think it

0:19:200:19:23

qualities on Friday, and I think it

was an excellent speech, and it

0:19:230:19:27

qualities on Friday, and I think it

something, of course it is a good

0:19:270:19:28

thing from my point of view that it

seems to have united the

0:19:280:19:32

Conservative Party, but more

importantly, I think it has united

0:19:320:19:36

the country. I think everyone in the

country, except perhaps those few

0:19:360:19:41

people are neither extreme, can

rally round. People like John Major

0:19:410:19:45

and Tony Blair? I fear that on this

0:19:450:19:51

rally round. People like John Major

issue John Major and Tony Blair are

0:19:510:19:52

to make love the

0:19:520:19:54

issue John Major and Tony Blair are

never been able to reconcile

0:19:540:19:55

themselves to the results of the

0:19:550:19:58

never been able to reconcile

referendum. I think a large majority

0:19:580:20:00

never been able to reconcile

of people in the country, even of

0:20:000:20:02

those who voted Remain, they now

say, let's get on with it and see

0:20:020:20:07

what we can get out of these

negotiations. Nicky Morgan

0:20:070:20:11

what we can get out of these

absolutely right when she said

0:20:110:20:14

what we can get out of these

in years to come people will not be

0:20:140:20:15

looking back at the negotiations.

They will be looking back at the

0:20:150:20:19

outcome.

The negotiations matter

because they determine the outcome.

0:20:190:20:23

outcome.

The negotiations matter

You like the tone of the speech.

0:20:230:20:25

When you look at the detail, does it

When you look at the detail, does it

0:20:250:20:28

really amounted taking back control

0:20:280:20:29

When you look at the detail, does it

when the Prime Minister says the UK

0:20:290:20:31

will need to make a strong

commitment that regulatory standards

0:20:310:20:35

will remain as high as the EU and in

practice they will remain similar in

0:20:350:20:39

the future?

That is not what you

campaign for. In many respects they

0:20:390:20:44

will be similar. As

0:20:440:20:46

campaign for. In many respects they

Minister said this morning, on the

0:20:460:20:47

Andrew Marr programme, these

regulations are not EU

0:20:470:20:53

Andrew Marr programme, these

the international regulations. The

0:20:530:20:55

crucial thing is that our sovereign

0:20:550:20:59

the international regulations. The

parliament, in future, will be able

0:20:590:21:00

parliament, in future, will be able

to decide whether we remain in a

0:21:000:21:02

layman, which in many cases would be

a sensible thing to do, or whether

0:21:020:21:08

layman, which in many cases would be

we diverged, which could also be

0:21:080:21:09

we diverged, which could also be

sensible. That is what taking back

0:21:090:21:12

control means.

The sovereign

parliament will decide. Look at

0:21:120:21:16

where we do remain in alignment and

where we do remain in alignment and

0:21:160:21:19

a hard fact that Theresa May picked

out

0:21:190:21:22

a hard fact that Theresa May picked

access we may have to maintain a

0:21:220:21:24

layman. The EU will change their

rules over the next few deals --

0:21:240:21:28

over the next few years. We will end

up having to mirror rules that we

0:21:280:21:32

over the next few years. We will end

had no say at all in making if we

0:21:320:21:35

had no say at all in making if we

want to maintain access.

That is not

0:21:350:21:37

control. We will be able to decide.

In some cases it may be sensible to

0:21:370:21:44

change rules to remain in alignment

with the European Union's rules but

0:21:440:21:46

in other cases it will not be, and

we will be able to decide. That is

0:21:460:21:53

in other cases it will not be, and

what taking back control means.

0:21:530:21:55

You're perfectly happy with

associated membership of some of the

0:21:550:21:59

EU agencies, medicine, chemicals,

the aviation safety agency, and with

0:21:590:22:04

paying a fee to be -- to be a

0:22:040:22:09

the aviation safety agency, and with

member. Very sensible. A year ago

0:22:090:22:11

you would not have

0:22:110:22:13

member. Very sensible. A year ago

that you wanted to stay a member of

0:22:130:22:15

any of these agents is a tall.

You

never ask me. You would have been

0:22:150:22:20

never ask me. You would have been

surprised by the answer. These are

0:22:200:22:22

sensible, practical arrangements

that we benefit from, and the EU

0:22:220:22:26

benefits.

It is sensible. We were

promised famously by David Davis

0:22:260:22:31

promised famously by David Davis

benefits of being in the customs

0:22:310:22:35

union and the single market after

Brexit. The Prime Minister herself

0:22:350:22:40

said something similar. Now she's

telling us we will have less access.

0:22:400:22:44

When people were told we could leave

the EU and maintain the same

0:22:440:22:49

benefits, were they being lied to?

0:22:490:22:51

the EU and maintain the same

Not at all. I think it is a

0:22:510:22:53

consequence of what the Prime

Minister has said, that in all

0:22:530:22:57

important respects, we will have the

access we need. There may be some

0:22:570:23:01

areas where that will not be

0:23:010:23:04

access we need. There may be some

case, but she dealt with the most

0:23:040:23:06

access we need. There may be some

important aspect in her speech on

0:23:060:23:06

Friday and should have in the most

Friday and should have in the most

0:23:060:23:08

important areas

0:23:080:23:12

Friday and should have in the most

have access. I think that will be

0:23:120:23:13

the outcome. It is in the interests

of the European Union as well as

0:23:130:23:17

of the European Union as well as

ourselves that that should be

0:23:170:23:20

of the European Union as well as

They want access to our large

0:23:200:23:22

market. We are one of

0:23:220:23:24

They want access to our large

biggest economies in the world. They

0:23:240:23:26

want access to our markets. It will

0:23:260:23:28

biggest economies in the world. They

be on both our interest to reach

0:23:280:23:30

that sort of agreement.

Both wings

of the Tory party might be happy

0:23:300:23:35

with this. The speech was received

less enthusiastically in Brussels.

0:23:350:23:39

The EU will publish their draft

guidelines on how they see a future

0:23:390:23:44

deal on Tuesday. If they do not

accept the approach that Theresa May

0:23:440:23:46

accept the approach that Theresa May

has laid out, what should she do

0:23:460:23:51

accept the approach that Theresa May

next?

Let's concentrate on the

0:23:510:23:53

positives. We are in a negotiation.

There will inevitably be posturing

0:23:530:23:57

by the European Union in the course

of these negotiations. That is what

0:23:570:24:01

negotiations always bring with them.

But I think, as I say, it is in

0:24:010:24:07

negotiations always bring with them.

our interest that we should have a

0:24:070:24:08

good deal. At the end of the day,

they want our money. They will not

0:24:080:24:14

get our money unless there is a good

deal.

It has been said that a trade

0:24:140:24:18

deal cannot be said by putting up a

few extra cherries in the Brexit

0:24:180:24:23

cake. This speech did not persuade

him that is a deal to be done.

He

0:24:230:24:29

cake. This speech did not persuade

not in charge of the negotiations.

0:24:290:24:30

Michel Barnier did not seem terribly

impressed. Are they going to accept

0:24:300:24:37

the Prime Minister's view that you

can accept

0:24:370:24:40

the Prime Minister's view that you

different sectors?

Let's wait and

0:24:400:24:43

the Prime Minister's view that you

see. Michel Barnier welcome the

0:24:430:24:45

speech. There is lots of posturing.

It is invading tress and hours to

0:24:450:24:50

arrive at a

0:24:500:24:52

It is invading tress and hours to

similar to that which the Prime

0:24:520:24:53

Minister set on Friday.

You're being

very positive about with the EU is

0:24:530:24:58

likely to do. They may well not do

likely to do. They may well not do

0:24:580:25:01

that. Is there a point at which the

0:25:010:25:03

likely to do. They may well not do

Prime Minister may be forced to walk

0:25:030:25:05

Prime Minister may be forced to walk

away because they will not meet

0:25:050:25:07

halfway?

I hope not but if you go

into any negotiations in, I want to

0:25:070:25:12

deal at any price, you will be taken

to the cleaners. That is true of

0:25:120:25:18

every negotiation. I agree with the

0:25:180:25:19

to the cleaners. That is true of

Prime Minister when she says that in

0:25:190:25:22

the ultimate circumstance, no deal

is better than a bad deal,

0:25:220:25:26

the ultimate circumstance, no deal

not think we're going to have a bad

0:25:260:25:27

not think we're going to have a bad

deal, I think we're going to have a

0:25:270:25:29

deal along the lines the Prime

0:25:290:25:31

deal, I think we're going to have a

Minister set out on Friday.

She

0:25:310:25:33

deal, I think we're going to have a

we are going to have to

0:25:330:25:34

deal, I think we're going to have a

and we are not going to get what we

0:25:340:25:40

want. We will have to meet someone

in

0:25:400:25:44

want. We will have to meet someone

response from the EU has not been to

0:25:440:25:46

say, we agree, let's talk about

say, we agree, let's talk about

0:25:460:25:48

to maintain a lot of

0:25:480:25:50

say, we agree, let's talk about

lines about cherry picking.

That

0:25:500:25:53

say, we agree, let's talk about

will change. Their approach to the

0:25:530:25:53

negotiations on the

0:25:530:25:56

will change. Their approach to the

changed. All sorts of figures were

0:25:560:25:58

bandied about about the

0:25:580:25:59

changed. All sorts of figures were

would have to pay and they bore no

0:25:590:26:02

reality to the ultimate outcome.

0:26:020:26:05

would have to pay and they bore no

have to take these initial

0:26:050:26:05

negotiating positions with a pinch

negotiating positions with a pinch

0:26:050:26:10

of salt.

When the EU was negotiating

0:26:100:26:12

negotiating positions with a pinch

with Greece during its financial

0:26:120:26:14

crisis, they were absolutely

insistent, they did not soften their

0:26:140:26:16

lines.

No disrespect to Greece, but

we are not Greece. The European

0:26:160:26:24

Union needs access to our markets.

The European Union needs our money.

0:26:240:26:30

Union needs access to our markets.

The situation is very, very

0:26:300:26:31

Union needs access to our markets.

different from that which happened

0:26:310:26:33

between the EU and Greece.

Lord

Howard, thank you for talking to us

0:26:330:26:38

this morning.

0:26:380:26:40

As we've heard, Jeremy Corbyn

made his own big speech on Brexit

0:26:400:26:42

earlier in the week and he backed

a customs union.

0:26:420:26:45

So how would it work?

0:26:450:26:46

With me from Salford

is the Shadow Communities

0:26:460:26:48

Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.

0:26:480:26:49

Thank you very much for coming in

speak to us today. We have got to

0:26:490:26:54

make a very different approaches.

Jeremy Corbyn at

0:26:540:26:58

make a very different approaches.

the week saying he wanted to stay in

0:26:580:26:58

the week saying he wanted to stay in

a customs union, Theresa May on

0:26:580:27:03

Friday pretty much ruling it out. Is

it not Theresa May who is being

0:27:030:27:08

honest with the voters by laying out

honest with the voters by laying out

0:27:080:27:11

the hard fact, as she puts it, that

we will have to accept we have less

0:27:110:27:14

access to the EU market?

Absolutely

not. That we are leaving the

0:27:140:27:21

European Union is decided. We had

0:27:210:27:23

not. That we are leaving the

referendum, but the Thames by

0:27:230:27:25

not. That we are leaving the

we leave the European Union is what

0:27:250:27:26

the negotiations are all about

0:27:260:27:29

we leave the European Union is what

the Labour Party has always said it

0:27:290:27:29

would seek to maintain the benefits

of a customs union. In

0:27:290:27:35

would seek to maintain the benefits

we have set out our proposals for

0:27:350:27:37

would seek to maintain the benefits

what we think that new arrangement

0:27:370:27:38

should be, I bespoke agreement

should be, I bespoke agreement

0:27:380:27:43

between the EU in the UK that would

between the EU in the UK that would

0:27:430:27:45

maintain the benefits

0:27:450:27:48

between the EU in the UK that would

trade between the UK and the

0:27:480:27:48

European Union going forward. But

one in which we are equal partners,

0:27:480:27:53

so we have a say on those new trade

deals that are being made and a half

0:27:530:27:59

of the new arrangements between our

two trading blocs.

That has never

0:27:590:28:04

happened with any other country that

0:28:040:28:06

two trading blocs.

That has never

has entered into a customs union

0:28:060:28:07

has entered into a customs union

with the EU. Why do you think they

0:28:070:28:09

would give us an equal say, one of

0:28:090:28:12

with the EU. Why do you think they

us against 27 of them,

0:28:120:28:15

with the EU. Why do you think they

to a negotiating a trade deal with

0:28:150:28:17

someone else somewhere else in the

world?

The EU is different trading

0:28:170:28:20

world?

The EU is different trading

arrangements with different

0:28:200:28:21

countries.

It does and none of them

have a say in outside

0:28:210:28:26

countries.

It does and none of them

The difference here, as Lord Howard

0:28:260:28:29

said, we are the largest economy the

said, we are the largest economy the

0:28:290:28:34

world. The European Union has

0:28:340:28:35

said, we are the largest economy the

important trading

0:28:350:28:39

United Kingdom, it is a two-way

process, and therefore it is in

0:28:390:28:41

United Kingdom, it is a two-way

of interest that we strike a deal

0:28:410:28:43

United Kingdom, it is a two-way

that benefits both of us.

I do not

0:28:430:28:46

know what is happening on this

programme. You are agreeing with

0:28:460:28:49

Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with

Laura Taarabt, he's agreeing with

0:28:490:28:51

Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual

Nicky Morgan. It is a very unusual

0:28:510:28:55

morning.

You're all in the same

side. The

0:28:550:29:00

morning.

You're all in the same

Conservatives have ruled out a

0:29:000:29:00

customs union, and we are saying

that a customs

0:29:000:29:05

customs union, and we are saying

least that we can give real

0:29:050:29:05

least that we can give real

assurances that the Good Friday

0:29:050:29:07

Agreement and our treaty obligations

in the Good Friday Agreement are not

0:29:070:29:11

torn up. We do

0:29:110:29:13

in the Good Friday Agreement are not

advantage is that we have seen of 20

0:29:130:29:15

years of peace between Northern

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

0:29:150:29:20

If

0:29:200:29:22

Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

customs union but you do not get a

0:29:220:29:23

large say in future trade deals with

countries outside of the EU and

0:29:230:29:28

large say in future trade deals with

just have to accept what is

0:29:280:29:29

negotiated by the EU 27, would you

negotiated by the EU 27, would you

0:29:290:29:33

still want to be in that customs

union?

We would have to look at that

0:29:330:29:36

carefully. We want to be a rule

maker and not a real taker.

0:29:360:29:46

carefully. We want to be a rule

hard to do that if you

0:29:460:29:48

carefully. We want to be a rule

customs union. Unless you have a

0:29:480:29:48

carefully. We want to be a rule

arrangement whereby the

0:29:480:29:51

carefully. We want to be a rule

Kingdom sits at the table when those

0:29:510:29:51

Kingdom sits at the table when those

trade deals are being made. That is

0:29:510:29:52

trade deals are being made. That is

make. We believe we would be in

0:29:520:29:57

trade deals are being made. That is

better position to make those

0:29:570:29:59

better position to make those

arrangements with the European Union

0:29:590:29:59

because we have approached the

Brexit negotiations in an entirely

0:29:590:30:03

different manner. We have said what

different manner. We have said what

0:30:030:30:06

we would like to see in terms of

transitional

0:30:060:30:10

we would like to see in terms of

government subsequently followed on

0:30:100:30:10

a number of those issues, but all

along we have said that we want to

0:30:100:30:15

along we have said that we want to

maintain the benefits of tariff free

0:30:150:30:17

custom free trade, and that is

absolutely crucial, not least for

0:30:170:30:22

the Northern Ireland issue.

One

0:30:220:30:24

absolutely crucial, not least for

the things the Labour Party was

0:30:240:30:26

looking forward to have to Brexit,

and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed,

0:30:260:30:30

was the freedom from

0:30:300:30:32

and that Jeremy Corbyn has stressed,

rules, where the EU stops the UK

0:30:320:30:35

Government from giving

0:30:350:30:37

rules, where the EU stops the UK

assistance to any particular sector

0:30:370:30:37

of industry. Theresa May spoke about

that on Friday and said it

0:30:370:30:43

of industry. Theresa May spoke about

necessary to sign up to the

0:30:430:30:45

of industry. Theresa May spoke about

directives on state aid and

0:30:450:30:46

procurement rules, to keep those EU

rules. Do you accept that will have

0:30:460:30:50

to

0:30:500:30:55

No, and we have a different view

anyway. When it came to our

0:30:550:31:01

arguments the Government

0:31:010:31:02

anyway. When it came to our

in to assist the steel industry in

0:31:020:31:06

anyway. When it came to our

Britain, the Government used these

0:31:060:31:08

anyway. When it came to our

fallacies about state aid rules to

0:31:080:31:09

excuse themselves for not giving

0:31:090:31:12

fallacies about state aid rules to

adequate support to that industry.

0:31:120:31:13

We didn't believe in the

0:31:130:31:15

adequate support to that industry.

interpretation the Government made

0:31:150:31:17

adequate support to that industry.

because other European countries

0:31:170:31:18

have got round the so-called state

aid rules. We have said as part of

0:31:180:31:24

our negotiations, that is a red line

for us. We would want to make sure

0:31:240:31:28

we could facilitate state aid in a

number of areas where Labour Party

0:31:280:31:35

policies have been clearer about

0:31:350:31:37

number of areas where Labour Party

supporting our industries.

If that

0:31:370:31:37

is a red line, is it more important

staying in the customs union, if

0:31:370:31:42

is a red line, is it more important

have to make the choice? The EU

0:31:420:31:45

could say no customs union if you

0:31:450:31:47

have to make the choice? The EU

insist on state aid.

We believe we

0:31:470:31:53

could get a bespoke arrangement for

a new customs relationship, a new

0:31:530:31:58

customs union.

I think there's a

name for that, isn't it called

0:31:580:32:03

cherry picking?

No because

0:32:030:32:05

name for that, isn't it called

believe this is in the interests of

0:32:050:32:06

believe this is in the interests of

the UK and in the interests of the

0:32:060:32:10

European Union. 44% of our trade is

with the European Union, 53% of the

0:32:100:32:16

EU's trade is with the UK so it is

0:32:160:32:19

with the European Union, 53% of the

in both our interests that we sort

0:32:190:32:21

this out and get the best deal not

0:32:210:32:27

in both our interests that we sort

for the European

0:32:270:32:29

in both our interests that we sort

Britain outside of the European

0:32:290:32:29

Union.

You seem to be saying

0:32:290:32:31

Britain outside of the European

Tory government are asking for

0:32:310:32:33

Britain outside of the European

impossible in their negotiations and

0:32:330:32:34

Britain outside of the European

won't get what they are looking for

0:32:340:32:36

Britain outside of the European

but somehow if there was a Labour

0:32:360:32:38

government negotiating this deal,

all doors would open

0:32:380:32:44

government negotiating this deal,

be able to select which bit of the

0:32:440:32:44

government negotiating this deal,

customs union you did

0:32:440:32:46

government negotiating this deal,

like and could have a bespoke deal

0:32:460:32:48

government negotiating this deal,

that is not available for some

0:32:480:32:51

reason to Theresa May.

They ruled

out a customs union, I think that is

0:32:510:32:55

a bad decision because I believe a

customs union, negotiated between

0:32:550:33:01

the UK and the European Union 27 is

in the best

0:33:010:33:07

the UK and the European Union 27 is

customs free tariff-free trade going

0:33:070:33:09

the UK and the European Union 27 is

forward but also sorting

0:33:090:33:12

the UK and the European Union 27 is

issue of the border between Ireland,

0:33:120:33:14

north and south.

Labour set out six

north and south.

Labour set out six

0:33:140:33:18

tests as to whether

0:33:180:33:19

north and south.

Labour set out six

for the Brexit deal in the end and

0:33:190:33:21

north and south.

Labour set out six

one of those was that it had to

0:33:210:33:23

one of those was that it had to

deliver the same benefits we get

0:33:230:33:26

from being in the single market and

customs union. That was a quote from

0:33:260:33:30

David Davis, but Theresa May

0:33:300:33:32

customs union. That was a quote from

been clear we are not going to get

0:33:320:33:34

the same benefits. Does this mean

Labour under

0:33:340:33:39

the same benefits. Does this mean

be able to vote for any Brexit deal

0:33:390:33:43

be able to vote for any Brexit deal

that's been negotiated?

Let's see

0:33:430:33:45

what Brexit deal comes back before

we have a hypothetical vote on this.

0:33:450:33:49

You don't think there's

0:33:490:33:51

we have a hypothetical vote on this.

circumstances in which it could come

0:33:510:33:53

back...

I believe if the Government

wanted to enter into negotiations to

0:33:530:33:58

do that, they could do that. The

fact the Prime Minister has conceded

0:33:580:34:03

is probably because they

0:34:030:34:04

fact the Prime Minister has conceded

out a customs union. We believe that

0:34:040:34:07

fact the Prime Minister has conceded

is the wrong decision, we believe

0:34:070:34:09

that arrangement is

0:34:090:34:12

is the wrong decision, we believe

let's see what the Government comes

0:34:120:34:13

back with and then we will decide

how we vote in parliament.

0:34:130:34:18

Parliament has got a meaningful vote

0:34:180:34:21

how we vote in parliament.

and that was something that had to

0:34:210:34:22

be secured through the parliamentary

processes. The Government weren't

0:34:220:34:26

going to give

0:34:260:34:29

processes. The Government weren't

think it is right it is ultimately

0:34:290:34:33

processes. The Government weren't

Parliament that decides.

Thank you.

0:34:330:34:35

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:34:350:34:37

Still to come...

0:34:370:34:38

As the government promises to cut

red tape to get more houses built,

0:34:380:34:41

we'll ask the Cabinet Office

minister David Lidington

0:34:410:34:43

whether they're finally prepared

to take on the nimbys.

0:34:430:34:45

First though, it's

time for the Sunday Politics

0:34:450:34:47

where you are.

0:34:470:34:50

Hello and welcome to

Sunday Politics Wales.

0:34:550:34:57

In a few minutes' time,

the American Ambassador on what kind

0:34:570:35:01

of Brexit deal would suit US firms

in Wales, and should

0:35:010:35:04

broadcasting be devolved

from Westminster to Cardiff Bay?

0:35:040:35:08

If so, how could it work?

0:35:080:35:15

But first, Carwyn Jones has spent

St David's Day in North America,

0:35:150:35:17

drumming up business

and making contacts.

0:35:170:35:19

Here at home, questions over

Labour's policy on Brexit

0:35:190:35:21

and his own future have continued.

0:35:210:35:23

When my colleague Daniel Davies

caught up with him a few days ago

0:35:230:35:26

in New York,

he put it to the First Minister

0:35:260:35:28

that it was difficult to show real

benefits to Wales from

0:35:280:35:31

overseas visits such as these.

0:35:310:35:34

People appreciate that I'm here.

0:35:340:35:37

Yesterday I was in Philadelphia,

I met with two companies there

0:35:370:35:40

with plans to expand in Wales

and they value the fact you take

0:35:400:35:43

the time to come and see

them, they want to show

0:35:430:35:46

you their facilities in the States.

0:35:460:35:50

It's a competitive world and we have

to be out there flying the flag

0:35:500:35:52

for Wales to make sure the flow

of jobs continues.

0:35:520:35:55

Let's look at exports

to North America from Wales -

0:35:550:36:02

between 2012 and 2016 they fell

by £1 billion so it shows

0:36:020:36:05

those visits you've been making

over those four years,

0:36:050:36:07

it's not having much

impact in that department.

0:36:070:36:10

Far from it.

0:36:100:36:11

We're seeing more jobs

being created in Wales,

0:36:110:36:13

I'm confident that at the end

of this visit we'll see

0:36:130:36:16

more being announced

in the future as well.

0:36:160:36:18

We want to help exporters look

at the US market and I met some

0:36:180:36:23

in Washington on Monday to help them

to understand the US,

0:36:230:36:27

its regulations and licensing,

and that's why we have offices

0:36:270:36:31

around North America and soon

one in Canada as well.

0:36:310:36:34

While you're here, back home

the opposition are saying your

0:36:340:36:39

position on trade after Brexit

is complete chaos.

0:36:390:36:43

You have been sending out mixed

signals, haven't you,

0:36:430:36:46

on what sort of trading

arrangements you want?

0:36:460:36:48

Stay in the Customs Union,

full and unfettered access

0:36:480:36:51

to the Single Market,

if there is some kind of free trade

0:36:510:36:54

agreement between Europe and the US

that works in the future then fine.

0:36:540:36:57

We talk of chaos -

the other parties, come on!

0:36:570:37:00

The mess they are in,

the Conservative Party

0:37:000:37:02

have an extremist wing

who want to cut us off

0:37:020:37:05

from Europe completely,

a pragmatic wing who are kicking

0:37:050:37:11

us all over the place.

0:37:110:37:12

I've no idea what the UK

Government's endgame is here.

0:37:120:37:14

We have been clear over

the past year as to what

0:37:140:37:17

we would like to see.

0:37:170:37:18

You have said consistently you want

to stay in the Customs Union

0:37:180:37:21

but you said before coming here that

you would press the case

0:37:210:37:24

for a free trade agreement

between the UK and the US.

0:37:240:37:26

It's inconsistent.

0:37:260:37:29

It's a backstop.

0:37:290:37:31

Absolutely we want to stay

in the Customs Union and get full

0:37:310:37:33

access to the Single Market.

0:37:330:37:35

The UK Government says it

doesn't want to do that

0:37:350:37:39

so you explore your options,

any rational government would do

0:37:390:37:42

that but the preferred option has

to be to stay

0:37:420:37:44

within the Customs Union.

0:37:440:37:47

So it does sound a bit that you want

to have your cake and eat it,

0:37:470:37:50

the very thing you have been

accusing the Brexiteers are doing.

0:37:500:37:53

You want to stay in the Customs

Union, you also want to talk

0:37:530:37:56

about free trade with America.

0:37:560:37:57

You keep your options open.

0:37:570:37:59

Let's be clear, I think the UK

should stay in the Customs Union.

0:37:590:38:02

There is no evidence to suggest

we would be better off

0:38:020:38:05

outside the Customs Union.

0:38:050:38:06

The UK Government could decide

to take us out of the Customs Union,

0:38:060:38:10

so then it makes sense to explore

less palatable options

0:38:100:38:12

but options nevertheless.

0:38:120:38:14

You have to cover all your bases

when involved in politics

0:38:140:38:16

but let me be clear,

staying in the Customs Union

0:38:160:38:19

is the best way forward for Wales.

0:38:190:38:22

How many more trips like this

do you think you'll make

0:38:220:38:25

as First Minister?

0:38:250:38:26

It's difficult to tell.

0:38:260:38:27

It's as and when.

0:38:270:38:29

With the US, being here on St

David's Day is hugely important.

0:38:290:38:32

We hosted a reception

on Capitol Hill on Monday night,

0:38:320:38:34

very well attended, creating

those political connections.

0:38:340:38:37

It's important for us to know what's

happening in US politics in terms

0:38:370:38:42

of what might happen as far

as market access for the future.

0:38:420:38:47

We have more than 20 congressmen

who are part of a Welsh caucus

0:38:470:38:50

who work with us to understand

what's happening in US politics.

0:38:500:38:56

In terms of other visits

it's as and when.

0:38:560:38:59

What I'm getting at is for how much

longer are you going to be

0:38:590:39:01

as First Minister able to come here?

0:39:010:39:04

Why don't you set a timetable

for your time in office,

0:39:040:39:07

as your predecessor did?

0:39:070:39:08

I know that was what you were

asking, carefully, you may come out

0:39:080:39:11

and ask the question.

0:39:110:39:14

What you have to do is carry on,

from my perspective of course

0:39:140:39:19

there comes a point where somebody

else would step into the role

0:39:190:39:23

of First Minister, of course that's

natural but for the moment

0:39:230:39:27

I'm focused on getting jobs.

0:39:270:39:29

The opposition parties haven't been

talking about jobs or business

0:39:290:39:32

or getting investment to Wales

in the last few weeks,

0:39:320:39:37

this is what I'm here to do.

0:39:370:39:39

What we care about is can you get

skilled, well-paid jobs into Wales

0:39:390:39:46

from the US and Canada?

0:39:460:39:47

That's what this trip is about.

0:39:470:39:49

And you're not tempted

to lay out a timetable,

0:39:490:39:50

as Rhodri Morgan did,

for when you might stand down?

0:39:500:39:54

No, I think from my perspective it's

a question of looking

0:39:540:39:58

forward to the future.

0:39:580:40:01

I think it is hugely important

with all the enquiries we have,

0:40:010:40:05

it is hugely important

to see those through.

0:40:050:40:10

I think it would be quite wrong

for anybody to disappear

0:40:100:40:13

in the middle of that process

and that is hugely important.

0:40:130:40:20

And we'll stick with

the US for a moment,

0:40:200:40:22

because overnight Donald Trump has

taken to Twitter to step up

0:40:220:40:25

a row over trade tariffs.

0:40:250:40:27

Last week, before this row

escalated, the US ambassador

0:40:270:40:30

was in Wales for St David's Day.

0:40:300:40:32

Robert Johnson -

Woody to his friends -

0:40:320:40:35

is a wealthy businessman,

0:40:350:40:37

so when Nick Servini spoke to him

he obviously asked him about trade

0:40:370:40:40

after Brexit and what kind

of deal his country would favour.

0:40:400:40:44

We want to sell and we want to buy,

so the best way to do

0:40:440:40:50

that is what we will

be interested in.

0:40:500:40:52

This is the big debate here and now

I'm spending a lot of time on that

0:40:520:40:57

but that's the way America

look at it.

0:40:570:41:00

There are tens of thousands

of Welsh workers working

0:41:000:41:03

for American companies.

0:41:030:41:05

When you speak to US

firms are they concerned

0:41:050:41:09

about the impact of Brexit?

0:41:090:41:12

Business doesn't like uncertainty

so as a businessman myself,

0:41:120:41:17

you're always trying to get rid

of uncertainty or go into

0:41:170:41:21

environments which are more certain.

0:41:210:41:23

Our jobs are analysing risk

and reward so uncertainty raises

0:41:230:41:29

the risks and you don't know how

it's going to turn out,

0:41:290:41:33

so as this rolls through,

as Brexit rolls through,

0:41:330:41:37

clarity will become more clear.

0:41:370:41:45

And many of those companies came

to the UK, came to Wales primarily

0:41:450:41:50

because it offered a gateway

to the rest of the EU.

0:41:500:41:55

Do you think in future

if there are trading barriers

0:41:550:41:58

between the UK and the rest

of the EU, that will affect future

0:41:580:42:02

investment decisions?

0:42:020:42:03

I think rather than speculate

you will have to see.

0:42:030:42:07

It will always be a gateway

for somewhere, Europe as well,

0:42:070:42:08

it will always be that,

because of the language

0:42:080:42:10

and because of the culture,

the historical relationships

0:42:100:42:15

and the legal system,

it's very important,

0:42:150:42:17

and that has to do with

certainty and uncertainty.

0:42:170:42:23

People talk about the special

relationship between

0:42:230:42:27

the UK and the States.

0:42:270:42:33

When you look at Brexit, I wonder,

does it make sense to leave

0:42:330:42:37

the EU and not be able

to strike your own trade deals

0:42:370:42:42

with the rest of the world,

which is what would happen

0:42:420:42:45

if we stayed in the Customs Union?

0:42:450:42:50

I think the Americans have quite

a large investment in the UK,

0:42:500:42:53

trillions of dollars and millions

of jobs on both sides of the pond,

0:42:530:43:00

so we would like, our preference

as stated by Wilbur Ross,

0:43:000:43:04

Secretary of Commerce,

was leave room for the US,

0:43:040:43:07

leave room for relationships outside

of the EU and so what he meant

0:43:070:43:15

by that is there's

a big world out there.

0:43:150:43:19

It's a fascinating time

for you in the job.

0:43:190:43:22

With such an unspoken president do

you find yourself firefighting

0:43:220:43:25

diplomatically all the time?

0:43:250:43:27

Not really, because I think

the citizens of the UK are starting

0:43:270:43:35

to understand the President a little

better because he now been

0:43:360:43:41

in for a little over a year

and the market has gone up from,

0:43:410:43:48

probably at 20%, up to, what...

0:43:480:43:54

It started about 19,000 and now it's

about 26,000, a good jump.

0:43:540:43:59

What do you think we need

to understand about him?

0:43:590:44:03

I think that what you have

to understand about this President

0:44:030:44:06

is understand what he's doing,

what he's done and what he's

0:44:060:44:09

accomplished in one year.

0:44:090:44:12

People have said in his first year

he's already accomplished

0:44:120:44:15

close to 70% of his objectives.

0:44:150:44:19

That's pretty amazing,

especially since it was very hard

0:44:190:44:21

for him to get people appointed

and all the obstacles

0:44:210:44:25

that were thrown up,

some self-inflicted you might say,

0:44:250:44:31

but whatever way you look at him,

I think you have to look

0:44:310:44:35

at the accomplishments,

the taxes, the employment levels,

0:44:350:44:40

the customer confidence

levels and all that,

0:44:400:44:46

the changes in the military

which he said he wanted to do

0:44:460:44:50

and that's started in a major way

and just the optimism of Americans

0:44:500:44:55

right now in terms of making sure

the middle class is growing

0:44:550:45:00

and people are feeling more

optimistic finally about leaving

0:45:000:45:03

the place better than they found it

which was starting to disappear.

0:45:030:45:07

Mr Johnson...

0:45:070:45:08

One year!

0:45:080:45:09

Mr Johnson, thank you very much.

0:45:090:45:11

Thank you.

0:45:110:45:13

Now, should programmes broadcast

in Wales be controlled from here?

0:45:130:45:16

One leading academic says that

could mean less money

0:45:160:45:19

to spend on services.

0:45:190:45:21

This week the Welsh Government

said the time wasn't

0:45:210:45:23

right for such a move.

0:45:230:45:25

So how practical could it be

and what might be the benefits?

0:45:250:45:28

Eleanor Gruffydd Jones reports.

0:45:280:45:31

This is BBC Radio Wales.

0:45:310:45:38

Welcome to the program.

0:45:380:45:40

Wales is waking up to

another day of disruption.

0:45:400:45:42

Heavy snowfall and strong

winds overnight...

0:45:420:45:45

When Wales turns white,

people reach for their radios,

0:45:450:45:48

turn on their TVs and hit the web.

0:45:480:45:51

Without thinking, broadcasting comes

into its own as people tune

0:45:510:45:55

in and get online for the latest

info, so does it matter

0:45:550:45:58

who controls this?

0:45:580:46:01

This week Elfed Wyn Jones

ended his seven-day hunger strike

0:46:010:46:05

to push for transferring powers over

Welsh language broadcasting

0:46:050:46:07

from Westminster to Cardiff Bay.

0:46:070:46:10

Plaid also held a debate

on the topic in the Senedd.

0:46:100:46:13

The devolution of broadcasting

is more important than ever in order

0:46:130:46:17

to ensure that Wales has a voice.

0:46:170:46:21

This isn't the time to start to talk

about devolving broadcasting

0:46:210:46:27

partially or to consider devolution

of any part of broadcasting to Wales

0:46:270:46:31

as part of the development

of the devolution settlement.

0:46:310:46:34

So we asked two experts, Dr Jamie

Midhurst and Dr Ruth McIlroy,

0:46:340:46:39

what difference having control

would make and why we should care.

0:46:390:46:43

It's how we hear ourselves

represented or how we learn

0:46:430:46:47

something about parts of the world

that we've never visited.

0:46:470:46:50

The late Dr John Davies,

fantastic Welsh historian,

0:46:500:46:53

argued that Wales was an artefact

created by broadcasting

0:46:530:46:56

in some senses.

0:46:560:46:58

Yes, we know that Wales

existed geographically

0:46:580:47:00

but if you like as an entity.

0:47:000:47:03

Ofcom regulate all the public

service broadcasters serving Wales,

0:47:030:47:07

including the BBC, ITV and S4C.

0:47:070:47:10

Crucially both the BBC and ITV

are UK-wide broadcasters but have

0:47:100:47:15

certain requirements in serving

Welsh audiences, the BBC

0:47:150:47:18

with a wider remit in terms

of the services

0:47:180:47:21

it's meant to provide.

0:47:210:47:23

S4C is mainly funded by the UK

government and the BBC licence fee

0:47:230:47:26

but that arrangement

is under independent review.

0:47:260:47:30

There are some issues

about what Wales understands

0:47:300:47:33

about itself, particularly

devolution, but also what the rest

0:47:330:47:36

of the UK understands by devolution

so it's natural that we would expect

0:47:360:47:40

to hear these campaigns coming

forward from time to time to time.

0:47:400:47:44

So when we say the devolution

of broadcasting, what do we mean?

0:47:440:47:50

It's unclear what the methodology

would be for raising funding

0:47:500:47:52

so if we take the BBC as one

example, currently that's

0:47:520:47:55

paid for by the licence

fee that we all pay.

0:47:550:47:57

One way of doing that

would be to cut that

0:47:570:48:01

appropriately to the populations

of the different nations.

0:48:010:48:06

That could mean we end

up with less money.

0:48:060:48:09

At the moment one could argue

that the DCMS funding

0:48:090:48:13

in London is ring-fenced,

it's safe, it's not

0:48:130:48:17

battling anything else.

0:48:170:48:19

If it were to come to Cardiff,

then you have the other devolved

0:48:190:48:23

areas such as education -

large areas, education, health,

0:48:230:48:25

transport, economy and broadcasting.

0:48:250:48:30

Since BBC Wales began in the 1960s,

one of the main arguments is that

0:48:300:48:34

devolving broadcasting would help

the understanding of

0:48:340:48:36

specifically Welsh issues.

0:48:360:48:40

I think there would be no point

going through the process

0:48:400:48:42

of devolving broadcasting

without also trying to get improved

0:48:420:48:44

representation on screen.

0:48:440:48:46

I'm sure many of us have had

the experience of watching the news

0:48:460:48:49

and hearing a reporter tell us

that this is the case in England

0:48:490:48:54

and we never then find out

what is the case in Wales,

0:48:540:48:57

Scotland or Northern Ireland.

0:48:570:48:58

How would Welsh language

programming be helped?

0:48:580:49:01

One member of S4C's governing body

says it wouldn't be.

0:49:010:49:05

Wales tends to vote Labour

and Labour, understandably

0:49:050:49:09

like all political parties,

looks after its base and its base

0:49:090:49:14

arguably is not the Welsh speaking

communities that are particularly

0:49:140:49:18

grateful for the existence of S4C,

so the idea that there would be more

0:49:180:49:23

money for it if controls moved

from Whitehall to Cardiff Bay

0:49:230:49:28

is a bit of a fantasy.

0:49:280:49:29

You're watching BBC 1 Wales.

0:49:290:49:31

Now it's time for the

Six O'Clock News...

0:49:310:49:34

But ultimately how

relevant is this debate?

0:49:340:49:36

With the growth of digital TV,

the ability to watch it

0:49:360:49:39

from the other side of the world

online and social media,

0:49:390:49:42

what control can any government hope

to have over the media we consume?

0:49:420:49:49

Now, after hearing from

the Prime Minister and Labour

0:49:490:49:52

leader about their latest views

on Brexit, this week

0:49:520:49:54

Plaid Cymru has a debate

in the Commons on the issue.

0:49:540:49:57

It will use the debate to make

the argument for UK citizens

0:49:570:50:01

being able to retain EU

citizenship after Brexit.

0:50:010:50:03

But how could that work?

0:50:030:50:07

The party's Economy Spokesman,

Adam Price, is with me now.

0:50:070:50:14

How would that work?

There is a

legal dimension to this and a more

0:50:140:50:21

personal perspective. Legally,

people in Wales and the rest of the

0:50:210:50:28

UK are currently EU citizens and

that has conferred valuable rights,

0:50:280:50:33

the ability to work and study in

Europe and enjoy free health care

0:50:330:50:38

and that will continue after Brexit

because of EU law.

There will be a

0:50:380:50:46

transitional period and it's unclear

what will after that.

People like

0:50:460:50:52

me, we will all under this

differently but people like me feel

0:50:520:50:58

passionately European and to a

certain extent might Welshness and

0:50:580:51:03

might European this are connected.

We come from our civilisation of

0:51:030:51:07

Celts that were known as the fathers

of Europe.

Let's bring it forward a

0:51:070:51:13

few centuries to where we are now,

and how would it work, read

0:51:130:51:20

containing European citizenship

after Brexit? Once the UK has left,

0:51:200:51:26

what will that mean?

It will mean

that everyone who was an EU citizen

0:51:260:51:34

before Brexit will continue to enjoy

those rights.

Freedom of movement.

0:51:340:51:42

Yes, and free health care which is

important in terms of travel and

0:51:420:51:48

studying. There is the question

about what could happen to associate

0:51:480:51:53

citizenship as well which is a

matter for discussion but it is

0:51:530:51:58

accepted by most legal observers

under the Treaty of Lisbon but you

0:51:580:52:03

cannot remove from an individual the

right of citizenship.

But would you

0:52:030:52:08

then accept that EU citizens would

be free to travel to the UK?

That is

0:52:080:52:15

a different question, it is

reciprocity.

But it is essential as

0:52:150:52:21

the EU Commission would have to

agree to this and they will not

0:52:210:52:25

agree unless there's a dozens the

same rights.

No, and Steve Hoss cat

0:52:250:52:35

-- guy for hot start accepts that in

that rights for individuals will

0:52:350:52:43

continue, and if you want to look

back at other examples in

0:52:430:52:49

international law, the Irish

Republic and its citizens continue

0:52:490:52:52

to have rights within the UK.

But

what about in future if young people

0:52:520:53:00

want to go and study in the EU, they

wouldn't have the same rights as

0:53:000:53:05

their parents.

Though, and this is

then the issue of associate

0:53:050:53:13

citizenship, which would be a matter

of negotiation because it will not

0:53:130:53:18

exist as a legal right but could be

a future option.

But if you want

0:53:180:53:27

that enhanced write for future

generations to travel in the EU, the

0:53:270:53:31

EU will want something back, they

will say if you want to come and

0:53:310:53:36

have free health care in the EU and

free travel, our citizens have to

0:53:360:53:40

have the same thing.

I can see the

argument.

Is it something that

0:53:400:53:50

voters in the UK would accept as we

have voted to leave the EU?

The

0:53:500:53:57

option of an associate citizenship

model could be something for

0:53:570:54:00

consideration. The key point is that

rights that are there in law for

0:54:000:54:07

current EU citizens cannot be taken

away, valuable rights need to be

0:54:070:54:12

protected.

One of the reasons the UK

voted to leave was because of

0:54:120:54:19

immigration, it seems you are

proposing something that does not

0:54:190:54:23

get to grips with the problem is

that threw up.

I think the issue of

0:54:230:54:30

migration was largely to do with the

politics of it and a feeling of

0:54:300:54:36

economic distress in communities

that have been neglected for

0:54:360:54:42

generations and I think the

responsibility for that largely lies

0:54:420:54:47

with the political establishment

that has not invested sufficiently.

0:54:470:54:54

What is the answer? People voted to

leave, you seem to be saying there

0:54:540:54:58

will be no change on immigration in

future and that's not what people

0:54:580:55:02

voted for.

The solution to economic

distress that communities like

0:55:020:55:10

myself have felt that expressed

itself in that vote does not lie

0:55:100:55:14

with migration but in economic

justice.

It seems to me you were

0:55:140:55:21

ignoring the will of the people who

voted because of concerns on

0:55:210:55:25

immigration.

People voted for a

variety of reasons but they did vote

0:55:250:55:33

because of economic distress that

some of them associated with

0:55:330:55:37

migration policy but the answer to

that is economic justice. It is

0:55:370:55:45

conservative and Labour governments

that haven't invested in

0:55:450:55:49

communities, that is the answer to

the problem, the answer is to take

0:55:490:55:54

back control. We have a Westminster

government engaging in a power grab.

0:55:540:55:59

He was talking about the sovereignty

of the UK and is now taking back

0:55:590:56:05

sovereignty from Wales so we cannot

address our economic problems.

You

0:56:050:56:10

are now talking about the EU

Withdrawal Bill, a different issue,

0:56:100:56:15

and the UK Government says there

will be more parents coming to Wales

0:56:150:56:20

after Brexit, clearly you don't

believe that but I want to come back

0:56:200:56:26

to things like freedom of movement,

if you had that it would make it

0:56:260:56:29

easier to remain in the Customs

Union and the single market if that

0:56:290:56:33

was what you wanted to do. Is that

what this is part of?

Wales has been

0:56:330:56:41

shafted politically for it

generations, you could say for

0:56:410:56:45

centuries and we are being shafted

again and we have to demand a future

0:56:450:56:50

for our nation.

And that is a

historical side but what about the

0:56:500:56:56

future?

We're moving from a European

Common Market to a UK Common Market

0:56:560:57:04

and we accept the need for common

rules but we are being offered a

0:57:040:57:09

system for the English Parliament,

that is what Westminster is, we need

0:57:090:57:14

a UK Common Market for each of the

four Nations has an equal voice but

0:57:140:57:20

instead we are being given a system

where

0:57:200:57:32

where England has a supermajority

through a Westminster parliament

0:57:320:57:34

dominated by English MPs. We want to

see our White Paper for each of the

0:57:340:57:37

four nations has an equal voice so

they UK Common Market is a Common

0:57:370:57:40

Market of four nations.

Thank you

for your time.

0:57:400:57:43

That's it for this week.

0:57:430:57:45

Don't forget about Wales Live

on Wednesday night at 10:30pm.

0:57:450:57:47

You can also follow all

the latest on Twitter -

0:57:470:57:50

we're @walespolitics.

0:57:500:57:50

But for now that's all from me.

0:57:500:57:52

Diolch am wylio,

thanks for watching.

0:57:520:57:54

Time to go back to Sarah.

0:57:540:57:57

welcome back.

0:57:570:57:57

So how about a bit of

a break from Brexit?

0:57:570:58:00

This morning the government

announced new plans to make it

0:58:000:58:02

easier for more houses to be built,

with rules to cut red

0:58:020:58:05

tape so that there can

be more homes in areas

0:58:050:58:08

where they are needed the most.

0:58:080:58:09

The government says they will take

on what they call the "Nimby

0:58:090:58:12

councils" who don't build enough.

0:58:120:58:14

However, their problem is that a lot

of these councils are Conservative.

0:58:140:58:16

So could we be about to see

a battle between local

0:58:160:58:19

and central government?

0:58:190:58:20

With me now with hopefully

all the answers is Cabinet Office

0:58:200:58:22

Minister David Lidington.

0:58:220:58:24

Thanks very

0:58:240:58:26

Thanks very much for coming in.

Good

0:58:260:58:27

Thanks very much for coming in.

Good

morning. If you're going to try and

0:58:270:58:29

build more homes in

0:58:290:58:31

morning. If you're going to try and

of England, which is where

0:58:310:58:32

morning. If you're going to try and

demand is highest, these are going

0:58:320:58:35

morning. If you're going to try and

to be your own councillors

0:58:350:58:37

morning. If you're going to try and

taking on over this?

If you talk to

0:58:370:58:39

most Conservative councillors they

0:58:390:58:40

taking on over this?

If you talk to

will get the need for more homes and

0:58:400:58:42

their significant growth in house

building. Actually, if you talk to

0:58:420:58:47

councils in my area you will

0:58:470:58:50

building. Actually, if you talk to

councils that are getting on in

0:58:500:58:52

building. Actually, if you talk to

house-building rates anywhere in the

0:58:520:58:54

country.

Under this government

house-building rates have

0:58:540:58:59

country.

Under this government

significantly. Fewer new houses a

0:58:590:59:00

year than there were under the

Labour government, 223,000 in 2007,

0:59:000:59:07

217,000, fewer now than word being

built under the last Labour

0:59:070:59:12

government.

The number

0:59:120:59:15

built under the last Labour

last year was 217,000, the

0:59:150:59:16

second-highest annual house-building

figure in 30 years. That is

0:59:160:59:20

second-highest annual house-building

record to be ashamed of. We have

0:59:200:59:23

also increased considerably the

0:59:230:59:24

record to be ashamed of. We have

spending on affordable homes in the

0:59:240:59:25

delivery of affordable

0:59:250:59:27

spending on affordable homes in the

council homes compared with what the

0:59:270:59:30

Labour government achieved. More

council houses have been built since

0:59:300:59:33

2010 than the entire 13 years in the

2010 than the entire 13 years in the

0:59:330:59:36

Labour government before that.

The

number of affordable homes being

0:59:360:59:38

built

0:59:380:59:44

built is going down. In 2010 it was

61,000, last year was 40,000.

0:59:440:59:47

built is going down. In 2010 it was

is exactly why we have put in £9

0:59:470:59:49

billion, an extra 2 billion in

0:59:490:59:50

is exactly why we have put in £9

last year alone, into the affordable

0:59:500:59:52

housing programme. What we need to

do is to get the new homes built.

0:59:520:59:57

That takes us to the planning

announcement that is being made

0:59:571:00:01

announcement that is being made

tomorrow, with a new national

1:00:011:00:03

planning policy framework for public

consultation. Houses and residents'

1:00:031:00:08

planning policy framework for public

groups can feedback their views on

1:00:081:00:10

that. When I talk to councils

1:00:101:00:14

groups can feedback their views on

find, and I talk to residents

1:00:141:00:14

concerned about new development,

what they want is to know

1:00:141:00:19

concerned about new development,

is going to be the infrastructure,

1:00:191:00:20

there is going to be the public

services to support new housing. I

1:00:201:00:25

find increasingly people get the

need for new housing.

People get the

1:00:251:00:29

find increasingly people get the

need for new housing, they just do

1:00:291:00:32

not want it anywhere near them. That

not want it anywhere near them. That

1:00:321:00:34

is where the phrase Nimby comes

from.

I think that is being unfair.

1:00:341:00:38

When I say to

1:00:381:00:46

people, all can your children

grandchildren afford to get on the

1:00:511:00:53

housing ladder, you see the heads

1:00:531:00:56

grandchildren afford to get on the

They get the importance

1:00:561:00:59

grandchildren afford to get on the

that we are living independently for

1:00:591:00:59

that we are living independently for

need more accommodation, there are

1:00:591:01:01

more

1:01:011:01:03

need more accommodation, there are

of population than we had in the

1:01:031:01:05

past. As well as having the

1:01:051:01:07

of population than we had in the

planned for, so that the locations,

1:01:071:01:09

as in the new guard in towns and

1:01:091:01:12

planned for, so that the locations,

cities programme are being properly

1:01:121:01:13

planned for, you also need the

infrastructure, the transport, the

1:01:131:01:18

planned for, you also need the

broadband to support that. That is

1:01:181:01:21

why the housing infrastructure fund

has been set up, so that local

1:01:211:01:24

why the housing infrastructure fund

councils can bid for

1:01:241:01:26

why the housing infrastructure fund

unlocking development opportunities.

1:01:261:01:27

unlocking development opportunities.

The government has said this morning

1:01:271:01:32

that Nimbys need to be tackled. But

the Nimbys and in the Cabinet. You

1:01:321:01:38

have said this needs to be

1:01:381:01:40

way that protects the green belt.

The housing minister says every

1:01:401:01:42

effort must be made to avoid

building in the green belt. The

1:01:421:01:47

Prime Minister Minister said that

local authorities may only alter

1:01:471:01:51

green belt boundaries in exceptional

circumstances.

1:01:511:01:58

circumstances.

No, not at all, you

are underestimating the

1:02:001:02:05

circumstances.

No, not at all, you

belt is important. If you come back

1:02:051:02:08

to the Chilterns green belt area,

to the Chilterns green belt area,

1:02:081:02:11

for people living in London, living

in Luton, High Wycombe, Milton

1:02:111:02:16

Keynes, Watford, these are places

expanding, new houses are

1:02:161:02:20

Keynes, Watford, these are places

built. Having that nearby is

1:02:201:02:25

something that is really important

so we need to plan housing alongside

1:02:251:02:29

conservation which is why when the

planning framework is announced

1:02:291:02:33

conservation which is why when the

tomorrow and the Prime Minister

1:02:331:02:34

makes her big speech on housing, we

are also saying this will be

1:02:341:02:38

are also saying this will be

developed alongside and taking

1:02:381:02:40

are also saying this will be

account of what Michael Gove and the

1:02:401:02:43

environment Department are doing

1:02:431:02:45

account of what Michael Gove and the

with a 25 year plans to improve the

1:02:451:02:47

environment of our country.

Let me

1:02:471:02:49

with a 25 year plans to improve the

take you back to the speech

1:02:491:02:51

with a 25 year plans to improve the

Prime Minister made on Friday, her

1:02:511:02:54

Brexit speech. She made it clear

1:02:541:02:56

Prime Minister made on Friday, her

of the hard facts was we weren't

1:02:561:02:58

going to get everything we

1:02:581:03:00

of the hard facts was we weren't

You are as close as you can beat her

1:03:001:03:03

of the hard facts was we weren't

thinking on this, what will she

1:03:031:03:05

compromise on?

Tempted as I am, I'm

not going to go into a detailed

1:03:051:03:12

negotiating position. We accept that

1:03:121:03:14

not going to go into a detailed

what we put forward is ambitious,

1:03:141:03:17

also credible idea for a close

economic partnership with the EU in

1:03:171:03:22

the future. The PM said in the text

the future. The PM said in the text

1:03:221:03:25

of the speech that neither of us

will end up with everything they

1:03:251:03:29

wanted. What we need to do now is

wanted. What we need to do now is

1:03:291:03:32

see the EU's opening position, to

1:03:321:03:34

wanted. What we need to do now is

sit down and start to work through

1:03:341:03:36

in detail some of these points about

the law, how you deliver our

1:03:361:03:45

in detail some of these points about

objectives of as frictionless trade

1:03:451:03:45

as possible, our economic

1:03:451:03:47

objectives of as frictionless trade

partnership in the future that

1:03:471:03:47

allows cross-border spy chains to

continue in a way that works to our

1:03:471:03:52

advantage and that of the EU 27

countries alike.

The Irish

1:03:521:03:57

government don't seem

1:03:571:04:00

countries alike.

The Irish

about this, Simon Coveney said this

1:04:001:04:01

about this, Simon Coveney said this

morning he doesn't then -- think the

1:04:011:04:07

EU will agree to it so

1:04:071:04:11

morning he doesn't then -- think the

closer to fixing the problem.

Simon

1:04:111:04:15

Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as

Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as

1:04:151:04:17

others have also the way to solving

1:04:171:04:18

Coveney and the Taoiseach as well as

the responsibilities over the Irish

1:04:181:04:20

border and avoiding the hard

1:04:201:04:23

the responsibilities over the Irish

as to do that in the context of an

1:04:231:04:26

the responsibilities over the Irish

overall EU UK economic partnership

1:04:261:04:28

the responsibilities over the Irish

for the future, and go back to

1:04:281:04:30

the responsibilities over the Irish

PM's speech on Friday and she set

1:04:301:04:31

out a number of elements of

1:04:311:04:35

PM's speech on Friday and she set

deal on goods that would mean the

1:04:351:04:38

and the EU

1:04:381:04:42

deal on goods that would mean the

standards so British and European

1:04:421:04:45

goods circulated freely without the

need for border checks or paperwork.

1:04:451:04:50

That's what the Irish said they

don't think the EU will agree to.

1:04:501:04:56

That's what the Irish said they

think it is in the interests of the

1:04:561:04:57

EU to have this

1:04:571:04:59

think it is in the interests of the

these sorts of detail are what we

1:04:591:05:01

need to get into to understand where

difficulties lie. The Prime Minister

1:05:011:05:06

also talks about a customs

arrangement or partnership

1:05:061:05:10

also talks about a customs

EU 27 in the future that would allow

1:05:101:05:13

us to simplify and eliminate some of

these problems. We already have

1:05:131:05:17

agreement on the continuation of the

Common travel area which means free

1:05:171:05:24

agreement on the continuation of the

movement of people across the

1:05:241:05:25

jurisdiction

1:05:251:05:29

movement of people across the

island of Ireland and Ireland and

1:05:291:05:30

the UK. What the Cabinet are

committed to, and it was laid out in

1:05:301:05:35

the PM's speech, is that we see

1:05:351:05:38

committed to, and it was laid out in

as essential to ensure there is not

1:05:381:05:39

a hard border on the island of

Ireland, that every aspect of the

1:05:391:05:44

Good Friday Agreement, both

east-west and north-south, is upheld

1:05:441:05:47

in full.

Moving onto President

1:05:471:05:52

east-west and north-south, is upheld

Trump, he's threatening tariffs on

1:05:521:05:55

east-west and north-south, is upheld

cars imported into the US which

1:05:551:05:55

would include cars coming from the

would include cars coming from the

1:05:551:05:59

UK, Jaguar Land Rover brought over

100,000 into the US. If he makes

1:05:591:06:06

UK, Jaguar Land Rover brought over

good on the threat of 10% tariffs,

1:06:061:06:06

what will the UK do about that?

At

1:06:061:06:10

good on the threat of 10% tariffs,

the moment we are part of the EU and

1:06:101:06:12

would be talking with the commission

would be talking with the commission

1:06:121:06:16

and European partners about our

collective response to this. I just

1:06:161:06:20

think that the United States is not

taking an advisable course. Trade

1:06:201:06:30

wars don't do anybody any good.

But

you know there's every possibility

1:06:301:06:35

Donald will go with this so what

1:06:351:06:42

you know there's every possibility

would the EU do?

We would have to

1:06:421:06:44

you know there's every possibility

see what happens. There's a lot of

1:06:441:06:46

concern recently about something

comparable as regards to aviation

1:06:461:06:50

and the aircraft we produced in part

in Belfast and the American

1:06:501:06:54

authorities at the end of the day to

1:06:541:06:57

in Belfast and the American

drop back down and said no,

1:06:571:07:01

not the way we should be going.

We

tried in Britain in the 1960s

1:07:011:07:03

getting our car industry from

competition. It didn't work, it

1:07:031:07:08

protected inefficiencies, we lost

all our export markets because

1:07:081:07:14

protected inefficiencies, we lost

competitors went out and gobble them

1:07:141:07:17

up and the car industry had to

1:07:171:07:19

through a very painful restructuring

up and the car industry had to

1:07:191:07:20

through a very painful restructuring

to get to the success story it is

1:07:201:07:21

now.

Once we have left the European Union

1:07:211:07:26

and customs union, we will

1:07:261:07:28

Once we have left the European Union

to respond to a tariff or trade war

1:07:281:07:30

to respond to a tariff or trade war

like this entirely differently so if

1:07:301:07:33

to respond to a tariff or trade war

this were happening in three years,

1:07:331:07:34

what would the British government be

able to do in response to American

1:07:341:07:39

president threatening tariffs?

That

is likely piling hypothesis on

1:07:391:07:44

hypothesis, but it would also depend

in part on the nature

1:07:441:07:48

hypothesis, but it would also depend

agreement that I hope we

1:07:481:07:50

hypothesis, but it would also depend

with the EU on industrial goods and

1:07:501:07:52

cross-border supply chains but we

1:07:521:07:55

with the EU on industrial goods and

would be free to impose our own

1:07:551:07:56

trade defence measures against

1:07:561:07:58

would be free to impose our own

country that is trying

1:07:581:08:01

would be free to impose our own

the UK market and the bill is

1:08:011:08:02

the UK market and the bill is

currently going through Parliament

1:08:021:08:04

the UK market and the bill is

will give the UK authorities the

1:08:041:08:06

power to do just that.

David

Lidington, thanks for talking to us

1:08:061:08:10

this morning. We will now turn to

our expert Anil and what they think

1:08:101:08:18

it means for the future. Steve, this

idea of the potential of

1:08:181:08:24

it means for the future. Steve, this

battle going on between the EU and

1:08:241:08:26

it means for the future. Steve, this

US takes us to part of whether the

1:08:261:08:28

UK can make up its own responses,

doesn't it?

Yes, and it's very

1:08:281:08:34

interesting David Lidington saying

we are leaping several hurdles here

1:08:341:08:39

because he hopes that post Brexit

the UK and the EU are lined terms of

1:08:391:08:47

other sectors. Whether they get that

sector by sector deal is highly

1:08:471:08:52

questionable so that's one of the

1:08:521:08:54

sector by sector deal is highly

several hoops that it is

1:08:541:08:56

sector by sector deal is highly

to navigate. If you have a president

1:08:561:09:00

sector by sector deal is highly

of the United States who is a

1:09:001:09:02

sector by sector deal is highly

protectionist butting up tariffs,

1:09:021:09:03

that

1:09:031:09:05

protectionist butting up tariffs,

of the world. No country operates

1:09:051:09:08

alone in this global market. That is

the harsh reality. It has been lost

1:09:081:09:15

sometimes in arguments

1:09:151:09:16

the harsh reality. It has been lost

sovereignty and Britain going it

1:09:161:09:17

sovereignty and Britain going it

alone and the rest of it. It

1:09:171:09:21

sovereignty and Britain going it

immediate impact on

1:09:211:09:23

sovereignty and Britain going it

country and they are partly

1:09:231:09:24

sovereignty and Britain going it

powerless to do very much about it.

1:09:241:09:27

Is Donald Trump threatening this is

a clearer example as to why Britain

1:09:271:09:35

Is Donald Trump threatening this is

needs to leave the customs union,

1:09:351:09:39

Isabel?

I think

1:09:391:09:41

needs to leave the customs union,

better deal with the EU than Donald

1:09:411:09:43

Trump

1:09:431:09:49

Trump does. Trump hates the EU, he

doesn't hate Britain, he wants

1:09:491:09:53

doesn't hate Britain, he wants

things to work well for us. He has

1:09:531:09:58

doesn't hate Britain, he wants

been very consistent about that and

1:09:581:10:00

always said America first so I

agree, it is possible he will go

1:10:001:10:04

ahead with this but also equally it

is possible that we will

1:10:041:10:09

ahead with this but also equally it

something very positive with the US.

1:10:091:10:11

ahead with this but also equally it

We did promise we will talk about

1:10:111:10:13

something other than Brexit for

something other than Brexit for

1:10:131:10:15

small parts of the programme so

small parts of the programme so

1:10:151:10:17

let's pick up on the housing

announcement coming tomorrow from

1:10:171:10:19

the Government. It feels like

1:10:191:10:22

announcement coming tomorrow from

six months or so the Government will

1:10:221:10:27

-- promised they will build more

homes, and I being cynical?

I think

1:10:271:10:31

what they are promising now is

exactly what they promised in the

1:10:311:10:36

what they are promising now is

White Paper on housing, this is just

1:10:361:10:38

fleshing it out. It is the exact

same announcement. That said, what's

1:10:381:10:44

quite good about this, to some

1:10:441:10:46

same announcement. That said, what's

extent I think the language is too

1:10:461:10:48

aggressive about councils and that

is what Labour is picking up on. For

1:10:481:10:54

a long time, politicians have

focused on things which are demand

1:10:541:10:59

side in the housing market because

it is sexier. Help to buy, right to

1:10:591:11:05

buy, and yet they can exacerbate the

problem because if anything while

1:11:051:11:08

helping a few

1:11:081:11:11

problem because if anything while

pushing up prices potentially. What

1:11:111:11:13

problem because if anything while

they are doing here unapologetically

1:11:131:11:14

is focusing on the supply side and

that's what they need to do. It

1:11:141:11:19

isn't very sexy, it is not on every

front page today, the speech

1:11:191:11:22

tomorrow won't have as much of an

effect as the speech on Friday but

1:11:221:11:28

this is probably one of the biggest

crisis facing the country.

Probably

1:11:281:11:32

something voters care more about

than Brexit?

And the timing of this

1:11:321:11:38

is very interesting, coming up to

local elections in London Tories are

1:11:381:11:42

expected to do very badly. Sadiq

Khan's record on housing is

1:11:421:11:47

extremely questionable to say the

1:11:471:11:49

Khan's record on housing is

least and I think this is

1:11:491:11:51

Khan's record on housing is

where the Tory party senses it

1:11:511:11:55

Khan's record on housing is

be more proactive.

Is there enough

1:11:551:11:56

Khan's record on housing is

oxygen in the room

1:11:561:11:58

Khan's record on housing is

concentrate on housing for voters to

1:11:581:12:00

get the message or ministers to push

1:12:001:12:04

concentrate on housing for voters to

this through?

Voters have got the

1:12:041:12:07

message. Grandparents understand it

even if they don't want house

1:12:071:12:11

building near them because their

grandchildren cannot buy because

1:12:111:12:14

they cannot afford to in certain

parts of the country so everybody

1:12:141:12:19

agrees about the ens, we need more

housing, it is just another means. I

1:12:191:12:24

housing, it is just another means. I

completely agree that right to buy

1:12:241:12:27

doesn't address the issue of more

housing. This does partly but I

1:12:271:12:31

think the cabinet needs a housing

minister in the Cabinet accountable

1:12:311:12:35

and to say right, we are going to

1:12:351:12:39

minister in the Cabinet accountable

build this number through various

1:12:391:12:40

minister in the Cabinet accountable

means and I am accountable to

1:12:401:12:42

minister in the Cabinet accountable

sure it happens. It needs that

1:12:421:12:46

minister in the Cabinet accountable

of focus.

At the same time as

1:12:461:12:48

Brexit, it should be housing?

Yes,

they have the right issue. There are

1:12:481:12:53

many issues, Brexit is sucking up to

much energy. There are tonnes of

1:12:531:12:59

many issues, Brexit is sucking up to

shoes we should be focusing on but

1:12:591:13:00

this is one of them.

Excellent,

thank you for coming in.

1:13:001:13:08

Join me again next Sunday

at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:081:13:10

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:101:13:17

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