25/02/2018 Sunday Politics Wales


25/02/2018

Sarah Smith and Arwyn Jones with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Kate McCann, Steve Richards and Iain Dale are on the political panel.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning everyone, I'm

Sarah Smith and and this

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is the Sunday Politics...

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Bringing you up to speed on all

the political comings and goings

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in Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up in today's programme:

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Having knocked Cabinet heads

together Theresa May

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prepares - finally -

to lay out her vision for Brexit.

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But can she keep her

whole party on side?

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We'll be speaking to

a former Tory leader.

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Waiting in the wings is this man.

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But can Jeremy Corbyn unite

the opposing forces in his own party

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and convince the electorate he'd do

a better job of Brexit?

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The forthcoming local elections

in England ought to give us

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a clue about the fortunes

of the two main parties.

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Later in

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really do more for less?

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All that coming up in the programme.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And as usual, we've got three

Westminster insiders who will take

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us behind the headlines and tell us

what's really going on.

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Today I'm joined by Iain Dale,

Kate McCann and Steve Richards.

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Next month, Theresa May

will begin formal negotiations

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with her European counterparts

on what the future EU-UK

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relationship should look like.

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This week, she will lay

out her vision of life after Brexit

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and she'll declare that our "best

days really do lie ahead of us".

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EU leaders beg to differ though,

and have already taken

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some pre-emptive swipes.

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But, while the talk is likely

to get tough in Brussels,

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the key battles could be

played out closer to home.

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It's known as the Brexit war

committee, but the smiles suggested

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an outbreak of peace among

the Cabinet's big beasts.

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For now, at least.

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They'd arrived at Chequers,

the Prime Minister's country

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retreat, on Thursday afternoon,

to try and agree a common position

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for the next round of Brexit talks.

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Eight hours later, ministers

were apparently still smiling,

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having agreed on something called

ambitious managed divergences

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and future trade with the EU.

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One of those present

said the Prime Minister

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had played a blinder,

but will it be enough to hold

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the whole party together?

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Earlier in the week,

a letter from the pro-Brexit

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European reform group found its way

into the newspapers,

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politely reminding the Prime

Minister that when we leave,

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nothing but full regulatory autonomy

will be good enough.

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But it's Remain-minded Tories

who could throw a real

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spanner in the works.

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Conservative MP Anna Soubry

announced on Thursday she had...

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"Tabled a new amendment to the trade

bill to force the government to form

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a customs union with the EU".

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27 other EU countries also

need to be won over.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Vienna on Tuesday,

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colourfully describing what Brexit

will not look like.

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They fear that Brexit will lead

to an Anglo-Saxon race

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to the bottom, with Britain plunged

into a Mad Max style world borrowed

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from dystopian fiction.

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These fears about a race

to the bottom are based on nothing.

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But the EU are not convinced.

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European Council President Donald

Tusk arguing that the UK

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was still trying to

cherry pick its future

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relationship with the EU.

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I'm afraid that the UK position

today is based on pure illusion.

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Until now, Jeremy Corbyn

has played his Brexit

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cards close to his chest.

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He may begin to reveal his hand

in a major speech tomorrow and this

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week he unusually raised Brexit

at Prime Minister's Questions.

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This government isn't on the road

to Brexit, Mr Speaker,

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it's on the road to nowhere.

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Can I congratulate the right

honourable gentleman,

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because normally he stands up

every week and asks me

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to sign a blank cheque.

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And I know he likes cheques, but,

really, that is terribly...

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That was a reference to reports

that the Labour leader had held

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meetings with the former

Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s.

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Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports

with a social media video,

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in which he said rather cryptically,

"Change is coming to

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the newspaper industry".

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Publishing these ridiculous smears

that have been refuted by Czech

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officials shows just how worried

the media bosses are at the prospect

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of a Labour government.

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They are right to be.

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Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise

to Mr Corbyn over a tweet

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about the allegations, saying...

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But it wasn't all Brexit

and brush passes.

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The Prime Minister began

the week announcing a review

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into higher education.

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We now have one of the most

expensive systems of university

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tuition in the world.

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Theresa May wants to demonstrate

her government isn't

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simply defined by Brexit,

but navigating the complications

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of leaving the EU is

an all consuming task.

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If she can avoid it

consuming her career, that

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could be her greatest achievement.

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Steve, Kate and Iain

were watching that with me.

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Let's chew over what has been

happening this week. People saying

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that meeting at Chequers, the Prime

Minister played a blinder and got

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the Cabinet to agree. Outside the

Cabinet, it looks like she is

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assaulted on all sides by

pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs,

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the EU, it's not as easy as all

that?

It is never going to be easy

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for a Prime Minister who hasn't got

a Parliamentary majority. She is

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very resilient. Whenever she's

knocked down, she bounces back

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again. I think she has had quite a

reasonable week this week, starting

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off on the front foot and tuition

fees and ending the week with the

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meeting at Chequers. I think a lot

of commentators thought it was going

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to be a disaster, that they would

agree on the way board. The proof in

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the pudding will be on what she says

in the speech on Friday. We have

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Jeremy Corbyn mandates and

effectively she has to up with

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probably quite a lot more detail

than she has done in the past. I

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think they have the basis for that

now.

Kate, we've talked a lot on

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this programme about the arguments

within the Cabinet but now it looks

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like the focus is now on the wider

Conservative Party. You have

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probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry

saying they want to stay in the

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customs union, a letter from pro

except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg

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saying they want full regulatory

divergence. Which group is likely to

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win the day?

I think what is most

interesting this week will be Jeremy

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Corbyn's speech on Monday. That

comes before Theresa May's speech on

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Friday. That will help tip those two

sites, as it were, and we will see

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what will happen with the customs

union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to

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say he would like to stay in a

customs union that is likely to make

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the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like

Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who

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want to back and push for a customs

union feel like they have more

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control over that. Whether it is

likely not promote we are yet to

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see. If Labour is shifting its

customs union position that much,

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that gives Tory MPs a lot more

strength in the House of Commons

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because the government has already

pushed back a vote on the customs

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union because they are worried about

what is going happen.

Those pro

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remain Tories on the Labour Party

believe they have the Parliamentary

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arithmetic to force a defeat on the

government over the customs union,

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are they right about that?

Certainly

in theory they are right. There are

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enough Conservative MPs and if the

opposition vote for this, the

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government faces a defeat with

profound consequences. We will not

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know probably until the moment when

the vote takes place. It will be a

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moment of one of these great

Parliamentary dramas, where there

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will be huge pressure on Tory MPs

not to go along with this and say,

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you are in alliance with Jeremy

Corbyn and so on. We won't know

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until the vote but in theory they

have the numbers. It would be a game

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changer if this amendment was

carried.

This is fascinating. It

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means the power has gone to the

house of parliament and has left

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number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary

Benn described this as a backbencher

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's parliament because the government

doesn't have a majority. Is that

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where the authority lies now?

In

some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree

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about the Parliamentary arithmetic

because some will die with the

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Conservatives, and we will hear from

one later, Frank Field. There are a

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group of them. I wonder about the

numbers on the Tory benches, there

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is a hard-core group of about ten or

a dozen that you think might well

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support Anna Soubry's amendment but

I don't really see it going much

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beyond that. But you are right, it

will be on a bit of a knife edge. If

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it came to the government were

defeated on this, then we are in

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uncharted waters, because the

government could actually make it a

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vote of confidence. It would be very

unusual to do one on an amendment to

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a bill but it is possible, or they

could call a vote of confidence that

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would put Anna Soubry and all the

others in

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others in a bit a tricky position.

If they did vote against the

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government on a vote of confidence,

they would have to be deselected.

We

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will talk about that throughout the

programme.

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Listening to all that is the former

Conservative leader,

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and leading Brexit campaigner,

Iain Duncan Smith.

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Welcome to the programme. Do you

accept there is a significant chance

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the government could be defeated on

a customs union in the House of

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Commons question when you don't have

a majority there is a chance to be

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defeated on anything.

I love the way

the media looks at this cost would

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take a pace back, it's a government

that won the election and didn't get

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an overall majority so it means

almost anything anyone is upset

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about could cause a problem for the

government, fact of life. Brexit is

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just one, it's a very big issue but

one of those, there has been other

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issues and there will be on the

issue is following through.

It

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matters to you whether we are in a

customs union with the EU?

Lots of

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things deeply matter to me, beyond

Brexit. But yes. I think the key

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thing is not what I believe but the

Prime Minister has been pretty clear

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about this from the word go, way

before the election, during the

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election importantly and even

subsequently she has made it very

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clear we are taking back control,

leaving the customs union, single

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market, and at the same time making

sure we get outside of the remit of

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the court of justice. She has been

clear about this.

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Let's pick a bit of that. In her

Lancaster House speech she said she

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wanted us to have a customs

agreement with the EU, not a customs

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union but customs agreement. This

controversial amendment Anna Soubry

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another Superdome says they want an

agreement that enables the UK to be

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able to participate in a customs

union with the EU, is there space

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for that?

It depends what the detail

is. The government set it out quite

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rightly on having a proper free

trade arrang ement. You can describe

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a free-trade arrangement in all

different ways but a free-trade

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arrangement is about us having a

clear ability to sell-out goods into

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the European Union them to sell us

without artificial trade barriers

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that will require arrangements that

out customs arrangements. The big

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them to sell us without artificial

trade barriers and that will require

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arrangements that out customs

arrangements. The behind having a

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customs union and being outside a

free-trade arrangement is we are 90%

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of the graces in the global economy

in the next two years, we will be

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free to do that. If we are in a

customs union, you to make trade

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arrangements with America,

Australia, India, where ever we want

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to, where 90% of the growth is in

the global economy in the next two

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years, we will be free to do that.

If we are in a customs union, you

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agree do that and therefore we would

have to what the European Union to

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what the European certainly be

outvoted endlessly. This is about

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where does the power light and we

would almost certainly be outvoted

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endlessly. This is about where does

the with the rest of the world in a

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moment but exactly what you

describe, the free-trade arrangement

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with no tariffs with the EU

and the

freedom to make those deals, that is

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what the EU called cherry picking?

What they really called cherry

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picking is this arrangement we are

talking about now, a customs union.

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They have been pretty clear about

this. They said it is not

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acceptable. Let's look at it from

the European Union to make those

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agreements?

I want to get into the

detail on free-trade deals with the

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rest of the world in a moment but

exactly what you describe, the

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free-trade arrangement with no

tariffs with the EU and the freedom

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to make those deals, that is what

the EU called cherry picking?

What

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they really called cherry picking is

this arrangement we are talking

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about now, a customs union. They

have been pretty clear about this.

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They said it is not acceptable.

Let's look at it from the European

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Union's standpoint. We constantly

look at what the UK once. You use is

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certainly not going to agree going

into a customs union where we will

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then have over any future agreement,

so we will outvote all 27 because we

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that would depend on the agreement.

...

That would depend on the

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agreement. The EU wants would have

enormous power against them, they an

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agreement, we would have enormous

power against them, they won't agree

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because it is not in their interests

to do I think what is more in

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arrangement. There are lots of

countries that are already breaking

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ranks with the commission about

this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

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have to have a free-trade

arrangement.

They are not on that

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yet, they are still on the

implementation phase. When it comes

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to free trade, I am very, very

certain that they will want to make

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an arrangement with us because it is

in their interests, arguably more

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than us. , they want a free-trade

arrangement. There are lots of

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countries that are already breaking

ranks with the commission about

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this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

have to have a free-trade

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arrangement. They are not on that

yet, they are still on the

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implementation phase. When it comes

to free-trade, I am very, very

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certain that they will want to make

an arrangement with us because it is

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in their interests, arguably more

than us let's move on to trade with

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the rest of the world. Why do so

absolutely convinced that the

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ability to do with Australia, China,

the ones the EU has at the,

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different from the ones the EU has

at increasing our trade with these

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countries from inside the EU? Their

biggest

are so terribly important?

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Why can't we be increasing our trade

with these countries from inside the

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EU?

Their biggest free-trade we are

naturally, the UK, more than any

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other country in the European

country, arguably more than most in

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the world, a free-trade for free

trade the WTO has a ready said they

0:14:170:14:21

love the idea of us coming back as a

full voting member because we will

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argue for free trade. By, global

free trade and services, which stop

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because the European Union has not

wanted to push the site at all.

Do

0:14:260:14:30

so much more trade with China than

us from within the EU?

That is to do

0:14:300:14:33

with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it Germany do so

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much more trade with China than us

from within the EU? That is to do

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with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it.

Being a member

0:14:400:14:43

of the EU has being a member of the

EU be outside the that so why do we

0:14:430:14:47

have to be outside you get rid of

artificial tarry

that is not

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parallel argument. By getting trade

arrangements you get rid of

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artificial and delays at the borders

that allows you to increase your

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trade. We want from where we are.

But at the same time, incoming stuff

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is just as important. The people who

will benefit most from a free-trade

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arrangement of the poorest in

society because the cost of food,

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footwear and clothing will almost

certainly our trade from where we

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are. But at the same time, incoming

stuff is just as important.

0:15:150:15:22

You might as much larger and more

important market. The skill is not

0:15:260:15:30

that important. The key thing is, do

you value a marketplace, is it worth

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doing business with? Financial

services is an important are great

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-- an important area you want to

strike agreements with. The UK's

0:15:390:15:43

dominant in financial services and

you cannot get a free-trade

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agreement within the single market

at the moment. You cannot sell

0:15:460:15:50

insurance in Germany without having

a company in Germany to sell it.

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They have never wanted to do

financial service is free trade. We

0:15:580:16:01

will be in a much better state

globally. You have seen the increase

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in New Zealand's trade when they

went for free-trade and got rid of

0:16:040:16:07

their trade barriers.

A dramatic

increase in no global position. The

0:16:070:16:10

tragedy led to this and they reckon

a free-trade deal with America we

0:16:100:16:18

did 0.02% to the UK's GDP.

I have a

bone to pick with the BBC. There has

0:16:180:16:25

been a brilliant economic report are

independent, which has been given

0:16:250:16:30

very little coverage which is taken

apart the model that the Treasury

0:16:300:16:33

and the government put together. For

example, dealing with this. The

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reason why you arrive at this, it

depends on what you assume to be the

0:16:370:16:41

actual savings on the border. The

government has only assumed a 4%

0:16:410:16:45

saving on getting rid of tariff

barriers. Almost every economist in

0:16:450:16:50

the world agrees it is nearer to 20%

saving.

This study has been covered

0:16:500:16:55

on the BBC it was on the Daily

Politics on Friday. It assumes zero

0:16:550:17:01

tariffs on absolutely everything. It

is an extremely optimistic forecast.

0:17:010:17:06

It assumes a 10% tariff at the end

of the day, it assumes tariffs

0:17:060:17:10

falling to an average of 10%, not

zero. If they went to zero it would

0:17:100:17:15

improve it even more. I have read

this report backwards.

One of the

0:17:150:17:21

officers says that while there will

be benefits from free-trade deals,

0:17:210:17:24

over time it would be likely we

would mostly eliminate manufacturing

0:17:240:17:28

in UK by the things that would be

worth it and it should not us.

That

0:17:280:17:33

was one of the original suggestions,

much earlier.

But he was one of the

0:17:330:17:37

authors of this report.

He was but

he has accepted this is not going to

0:17:370:17:41

be the case within this report.

They're assuming that the border

0:17:410:17:45

changes will mean less of a tariff

on the borders at average. That is

0:17:450:17:48

what happens in most other

free-trade arrangements. The point

0:17:480:17:52

I'm making is it has a massive

benefit to the UK for us to do this.

0:17:520:17:57

That is why going for a free-trade

agreement with the European Union is

0:17:570:18:00

the right way to go. We forget what

Europe itself once.

Labour is in a

0:18:000:18:08

complete mess about this. We will

talk to this about -- we will talk

0:18:080:18:12

to them about that.

They were in

favour of leaving the customs union

0:18:120:18:15

and the single market and Barry

Gardner said it was making a vassal

0:18:150:18:19

state if you stayed in the customs

union. We will ask Labour themselves

0:18:190:18:23

about that. Theresa May has made it

clear where out of the single market

0:18:230:18:27

and Customs union and I say to my

colleagues who want to change some

0:18:270:18:31

of this, just be very careful on

this one, because being invited into

0:18:310:18:36

a Labour Party tactical game which

will end up in real damage the

0:18:360:18:39

United Kingdom.

Iain Duncan Smith,

thank you very much for talking to

0:18:390:18:43

us.

0:18:430:18:45

So much for the Conservatives,

but what about Labour?

0:18:450:18:47

In 24 hours' time,

Jeremy Corbyn will give

0:18:470:18:49

a keynote speech on Brexit.

0:18:490:18:50

All the signs are that he will back

the UK staying permanently

0:18:500:18:53

in a customs union with the EU.

0:18:530:18:54

But over 80 senior Labour figures

have today urged Mr Corbyn to go

0:18:540:18:57

further and support staying

in the single market as well.

0:18:570:19:00

But how would that go down

with the millions of Labour

0:19:000:19:02

voters who backed Brexit?

0:19:020:19:04

Here's what the Shadow Brexit

Secretary, Keir Starmer,

0:19:040:19:05

said this morning.

0:19:050:19:07

Well, we have long championed

being in a customs union with the EU

0:19:070:19:10

and the benefits of that.

0:19:100:19:14

Obviously, it is the only way,

realistically, to get

0:19:140:19:16

tariff free access.

0:19:160:19:18

It is really important

for our manufacturing base

0:19:180:19:22

and nobody can answer the question

how you keep your commitment to no

0:19:220:19:26

hard border in Northern Ireland

without a customs union.

0:19:260:19:28

We have always said

that the benefits of the single

0:19:280:19:30

market must be there in the final

agreement and that is a really

0:19:300:19:33

important commitment

because in the end, however

0:19:330:19:35

you arrive at that, in whatever

the instrument or agreement it is,

0:19:350:19:38

the benefits have got to be there.

0:19:380:19:39

Labour is agreed on that end state.

0:19:390:19:41

There is obviously an argument

about how we get there.

0:19:410:19:44

To discuss this I'm joined by two

Labour MPs who fall on opposing

0:19:440:19:47

sides of the Brexit argument.

0:19:470:19:48

Frank Field campaigned to leave

the EU and Stella Creasy

0:19:480:19:50

is a supporter of the pro-European

group Open Britain.

0:19:500:19:53

Thank you both for coming on the

programme. Stella Creasy, you have

0:19:530:19:58

signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn

to be asking not only to stay in the

0:19:580:20:02

customs union but also the single

market. If you're in both of them, I

0:20:020:20:07

really delivering on the referendum

Brexit result?

There are lots of

0:20:070:20:12

different combinations that still

see is leaving the European Union

0:20:120:20:15

but do what Labour people across

this country, and that is why there

0:20:150:20:19

is support across the country and

the party for this letter, which is

0:20:190:20:22

to protect the jobs and incomes. We

know that Brexit, any of the models,

0:20:220:20:28

I am horrified to your Iain Duncan

Smith dismissing the idea that

0:20:280:20:32

manufacturing may be at stake or the

numbers don't matter. It is a

0:20:320:20:36

massive hit on our economy. It is a

massive hit took peace in Northern

0:20:360:20:41

Ireland if we leave the customs

union. These are called labour

0:20:410:20:43

values and that is what we are

standing up for.

You're asking to

0:20:430:20:47

stay in the single market. The

problem with that is you thought an

0:20:470:20:51

election last year under a manifesto

which said that free movement will

0:20:510:20:56

end.

You cannot do both. I am in the

migration committee on the Council

0:20:560:21:00

of Europe. Lots of people are

willing to talk about how we make

0:21:000:21:04

freedom of movement work. They

recognise politicians have not got

0:21:040:21:07

it right across the continent. If we

are not fighting to stay in the

0:21:070:21:11

single market we cannot have that

conversation about what the reformed

0:21:110:21:14

freedom of movement might look like.

I think freedom of movement is an

0:21:140:21:18

important right for people in this

country. I do not want to have to

0:21:180:21:22

see the kids in Walthamstow

Birkenhead that their ability to

0:21:220:21:25

work for a company that has a base

outside the UK will be hampered by

0:21:250:21:28

decisions we've made. That puts them

in an austerity Britain and I do not

0:21:280:21:36

want to do that.

Frank Field, does

this sound like a Brexit you could

0:21:360:21:39

sell to any leave photo?

No, and you

know perfectly well we cannot sell

0:21:390:21:43

it. I am looking forward to what

Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because

0:21:430:21:48

you have hyped it up. On every vote

we have had Onuora before he came --

0:21:480:21:54

before he became leader, Jeremy

Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious

0:21:540:21:57

of this organisation which is

corrupt, it has never got its

0:21:570:22:01

accounts audited, it is bankrupt.

Whatever he says tomorrow he will

0:22:010:22:07

not be arguing to stay in the EU, he

will be arguing for the customs

0:22:070:22:11

union?

Please, let me finish. It is

deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It

0:22:110:22:19

has destabilised Europe with all

this pretence about it has brought

0:22:190:22:24

peace. Look what we have done to the

area around Russia. Given there are

0:22:240:22:30

number of states within Europe who

depend on our contribution, we

0:22:300:22:34

should be voting for a clear

decorate -- a clear declaration, we

0:22:340:22:39

want a free-trade area, and we have

money. What are you going to choose.

0:22:390:22:44

I think we should take the gloves

off in these negotiations and look

0:22:440:22:47

at the real power structure. They

need our money, and for reasons

0:22:470:22:52

which Stella Creasy has put forward,

we need access to a free-market

0:22:520:22:58

arrangement.

What is your problem

with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the

0:22:580:23:01

Labour policy will be too clearly

stay in a customs union?

Two things.

0:23:010:23:07

One, it goes against what we said at

the election. It goes against all

0:23:070:23:12

the scare tactics during the

campaign, all the major figures were

0:23:120:23:18

saying, you know, if you vote here,

you're leaving the customs union,

0:23:180:23:22

you're leaving the free market.

There was no question about what the

0:23:220:23:26

referendum was deciding. And the

politics of this is, are we going to

0:23:260:23:33

be run by a London agenda? I know

Stella Creasy has got other issues

0:23:330:23:37

that she reaches out across the

country, but this is essentially a

0:23:370:23:44

London agenda against Labour voters,

particularly in the North.

0:23:440:23:46

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

You have got the mayor of Liverpool

0:23:460:23:51

who signed this letter, the leader

of Newcastle Council.

You and I

0:23:510:23:55

would in the lobby fighting together

against this government's welfare

0:23:550:24:00

cuts.

£12 billion cuts.

That is

nothing to do with this. It

0:24:000:24:03

absolutely is. Even the bare minimal

model we are talking about would be

0:24:030:24:08

ahead on our economy and the

communities we represent. How can we

0:24:080:24:14

vote Forestieri the? How can you do

that to the voters, the People who

0:24:140:24:19

work in the Vauxhall plants in the

Wirral who are frightened they are

0:24:190:24:22

about to lose their jobs. How can

you do that to the People in

0:24:220:24:26

Northern Ireland?

Let me answer you,

please. We have been through the

0:24:260:24:31

courts. There is no problem about

the Good Friday Agreement being

0:24:310:24:33

challenged by this at all. We have

got time, I am happy to discuss it.

0:24:330:24:38

I think there are problems with the

Good Friday Agreement and a customs

0:24:380:24:42

union.

No, it will remain. If we

have time, I would love to discuss

0:24:420:24:48

that with you. About austerity, can

I answer that? We are net

0:24:480:24:54

contributor. We will have money to

be brought back. While some people

0:24:540:24:57

have signed the order leaders even

there, when you look at the

0:24:570:25:03

parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May

almost hollowed out our vote in the

0:25:030:25:11

seats were only kept by a handful of

votes. These are seats which voted

0:25:110:25:15

very clearly to leave. That is the

act of faith. I know there are

0:25:150:25:20

problems about how do you give the

electorate the sovereignty to decide

0:25:200:25:24

an issue and then bring it back into

a representative parliamentary

0:25:240:25:28

system, but the vote was cleared to

leave. The bill is about leaving and

0:25:280:25:35

whether we support that or not and

if we do not support that, I think

0:25:350:25:38

Labour voters will draw their own

messages in the North.

Please do not

0:25:380:25:42

drive Boris's bars for the People of

those communities. You're saying

0:25:420:25:45

that somehow we will get money back.

All the evidence shows is that any

0:25:450:25:50

money you get back will be dwarfed

by what we will lose. You're talking

0:25:500:25:55

about £1 billion coming back.

0:25:550:26:01

about £1 billion coming back.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

0:26:010:26:02

You can talk across me all you like,

the numbers are there in the

0:26:020:26:07

government's on analysis. That is

what we have to front up to the

0:26:070:26:10

communities we represent.

Are you

going to write on the People's

0:26:100:26:16

decision to leave?

You're coming out

with all these things, we will stay

0:26:160:26:22

in a customs union, we will stay in

a single market, the decision was

0:26:220:26:26

quite clear to leave. In the north,

Labour voters voted very, very

0:26:260:26:32

clearly. You going to rat on them or

not? Never mind about buses and all

0:26:320:26:39

the rest of it.

It does matter. Let her answer. It

0:26:390:26:42

is about the evidence that we now

have. Democracy did not stop the day

0:26:420:26:47

after the referendum.

People have a

right to see the detail.

Of course

0:26:470:26:51

they do. Do you accept that the

government figures show clearly that

0:26:510:26:54

if we stay in the European economic

arrangement, which is out of the EU,

0:26:540:26:59

we are still going to take a 16 pelt

-- a £16 billion hit on our economy?

0:26:590:27:05

That worse anything you get back.

This letter is not just signed from

0:27:050:27:08

people across the country but people

across the trade union movement

0:27:080:27:12

because they because they know the

0:27:120:27:18

hard Brexit the government is

pushing for and why it matters

0:27:250:27:28

Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the

customs union and single market

0:27:280:27:30

membership.

It means jobs and wages.

What we should be fighting forest

0:27:300:27:32

sector agreements with the European

Union. We want a free-trade area.

0:27:320:27:34

They have always opposed the

activities of the city. There is no

0:27:340:27:37

need to worry about the city. There

is a need to worry about

0:27:370:27:39

manufacturing and we will make

special arrangements with them. The

0:27:390:27:42

issue is clear, do we disguise the

fact by pretending we're going to

0:27:420:27:46

have a customs union or some other

arrangement which counters what the

0:27:460:27:52

clear declaration of northern Labour

voters actually said?

They have

0:27:520:27:57

changed their side. A third of

Labour voters did vote for leave.

0:27:570:28:01

You risk them abandoning the party.

This is not about rerunning the

0:28:010:28:05

referendum. It is about what kind of

deal do we get and is it in the best

0:28:050:28:10

interests of Britain. I believe

voters across this country have the

0:28:100:28:13

right to know what is likely to

happen.

0:28:130:28:15

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

Of course they have a right.

A right

0:28:150:28:24

to every bit of information going.

The key thing, we have had a

0:28:240:28:30

referendum and we rarely use

referendums for this reason, they

0:28:300:28:33

are difficult to implement. The

referendum decision was clear and

0:28:330:28:36

particularly clear in the North from

Labour voters. I want to keep faith

0:28:360:28:41

with them. I voted to come out. I

know it is harder for people who

0:28:410:28:44

voted to stay in. Are we going to

dress up a retreat, Agassi?

Then

0:28:440:28:53

there is a complicated decision for

you to make. We've been talking

0:28:530:28:55

about the amendment put forward by

Anna Soubry and others, an amendment

0:28:550:28:59

to the trade bill that will be voted

on in a few time. There is a

0:28:590:29:03

potential to defeat the government

is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour

0:29:030:29:06

of a customs union and whips his MPs

to vote that way. If you had the

0:29:060:29:12

opportunity to win a vote against

the government and bring down

0:29:120:29:14

Theresa May, would you vote with her

to keep her in office or against?

0:29:140:29:22

That is not the choice and you know

that. That will be the choice on the

0:29:220:29:24

day. We will have a decision, do we

continue to implement the referendum

0:29:240:29:27

decision. I shall be voting for

that.

Even if that is voting to prop

0:29:270:29:33

up the government?

It is not about

propping up the government it is

0:29:330:29:36

about implementing a decision of the

People. The government has a

0:29:360:29:41

majority on this. The idea that Anna

Soubry is going to lead all these

0:29:410:29:45

people into the labour lobbies is

just fairy tales. But we will see on

0:29:450:29:49

the night. The government will win

comfortably and double figures on

0:29:490:29:53

this issue.

Frank Field, Stella

Creasy, we will have to leave it

0:29:530:29:57

there. Thank you very much.

0:29:570:30:00

The local elections in May will see

many seats in the big metropolitan

0:30:000:30:03

councils in England up for grabs,

and the Conservatives may need

0:30:030:30:05

to brace for a difficult night.

0:30:050:30:07

A YouGov poll predicts

Labour could seize several

0:30:070:30:09

Conservative councils in London,

including one the Tories

0:30:090:30:11

have never lost before.

0:30:110:30:12

Emma Vardy looks ahead.

0:30:120:30:16

Not since the swinging '60s has

anyone done better in local

0:30:160:30:19

elections than Labour

could be about to.

0:30:190:30:22

A recent YouGov poll is predicting

Labour will sweep London

0:30:220:30:26

with the best results for any

party since 1968.

0:30:260:30:31

One of the most enduring Tory

strongholds is here.

0:30:350:30:39

To this day, Westminster,

with its largely affluent

0:30:390:30:42

population of voters,

has never had a Labour-run

0:30:420:30:46

authority, but if the poll is to be

believed, that could now change.

0:30:460:30:51

This council has been

Conservative-controlled ever

0:30:520:30:56

since the borough was created

in the 1960s.

0:30:560:30:59

But if the swing was big enough

to turn this council red,

0:30:590:31:03

that would top off a very good

night for Labour.

0:31:030:31:05

The Conservatives are at position

where they could potentially

0:31:050:31:09

be left with just one,

maybe two councils in all of London.

0:31:090:31:13

I think that would be a bad night

for the Conservatives,

0:31:130:31:16

but it is possible.

0:31:160:31:19

They are having to fight to hang

on almost everywhere

0:31:190:31:23

they still have representation.

0:31:230:31:24

But away from London,

it could be a different story.

0:31:240:31:27

Birmingham City Council has been

controlled by Labour since 2012.

0:31:270:31:32

They hold around two-thirds

of the seats here, but there

0:31:320:31:36

is anger over a bin dispute that

lasted for months and left tons

0:31:360:31:40

of rubbish on the streets

uncollected, and resentment over

0:31:400:31:42

budget cuts that are

affecting local services.

0:31:420:31:47

It does not matter who is in because

there is nothing between them,

0:31:470:31:50

that is the problem,

because Birmingham is basically

0:31:500:31:53

screwed by central government,

who have reduced all of our grants.

0:31:530:31:55

There has been a lot of problems

with the bin collections.

0:31:550:31:58

Yes, there have.

0:31:580:31:59

Oh, yes.

0:31:590:32:00

The Labour run council

got the blame for that?

0:32:000:32:03

Yes, I would say so.

0:32:030:32:05

The more it dragged

on, certainly, yes.

0:32:050:32:07

This will be the first all-out

election for Birmingham City Council

0:32:070:32:11

since boundary changes,

so there are 101 seats

0:32:110:32:13

here all up for grabs.

0:32:130:32:17

It is a place Labour should do well,

but could the party be

0:32:170:32:20

punished over those bins?

0:32:200:32:21

Back in the summer, of course,

we had the bin strike.

0:32:210:32:24

It was not the city's

greatest moment in time.

0:32:240:32:27

When I became leader of the council,

I pledged we would resolve that

0:32:270:32:30

dispute, which we have now done.

0:32:300:32:32

We, the Labour Party

here in Birmingham, are committed

0:32:320:32:35

to maintaining weekly bin

collections going forward

0:32:350:32:37

for the next four years,

a commitment I've yet to hear

0:32:370:32:39

from either of the

other two parties.

0:32:390:32:44

Here in Birmingham, the council tax

has gone up over 20% in seven years,

0:32:440:32:47

but services have gone down,

and people are seeing rubbish

0:32:470:32:49

left on their streets,

and they feel it is time

0:32:490:32:52

for a change.

0:32:520:32:53

There are plenty of other

places who survive

0:32:530:32:55

on fortnightly bin collections.

0:32:550:32:56

With council budgets

being constrained, is that

0:32:560:32:57

not a sensible option?

0:32:570:33:01

In Birmingham, we are absolutely

clear that weekly bin

0:33:010:33:03

collections need to remain.

0:33:030:33:04

Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats

and the Greens remain much

0:33:040:33:09

stronger in local government

than they are in Parliament,

0:33:090:33:11

and in May, they will be

fighting to increase

0:33:110:33:14

their local authority presence.

0:33:140:33:17

While Ukip are likely to continue

to struggle to reverse

0:33:170:33:20

the party's decline.

0:33:200:33:23

But if the story of the night

is the biggest Labour

0:33:230:33:26

success since the '60s,

any high-profile defeats in Tory

0:33:260:33:28

strongholds could start to make some

Conservative MPs worry

0:33:280:33:31

about their constituencies ahead

of the next general election.

0:33:310:33:35

Steve, Kate and Iain

are still with me.

0:33:350:33:40

Let's pick up on the local

elections. Kate, should Theresa May

0:33:400:33:45

be deeply worried about this, what

she expected a bad night and what

0:33:450:33:50

might the consequences be?

No doubt

she will be worried but my favourite

0:33:500:33:53

thing is Everything is underlined by

the fact people care more about

0:33:530:33:56

things than other things that is

what politics comes down to, at the

0:33:560:33:59

end of the day. I think Theresa May

will be worried. -- it comes down

0:33:590:34:04

bins. It is a battle ground for

those parties. Places like Haringey,

0:34:040:34:11

if you see what has happened to

Labour in those areas, and how

0:34:110:34:14

powerful momentum and the left have

become in local politics, you see

0:34:140:34:17

how much it matters to Labour. I

think the Tories will be worried,

0:34:170:34:22

particularly about London. As the BT

said, Labour expect to do quite well

0:34:220:34:26

and that is not going to look very

good. Brandon Lewis, the new

0:34:260:34:30

chairman of the party, said last

week we expect big losses in London.

0:34:300:34:35

He is setting that already. I think

the Tory party is worried. In areas

0:34:350:34:38

like Birmingham and other areas

around the country, Brexit is likely

0:34:380:34:42

to be important and I think that's

why it comes back to labour being

0:34:420:34:45

modelled on Brexit. People vote with

their feet. If the Tories can win

0:34:450:34:49

back some seats like burning in

other places, it might not be a

0:34:490:34:52

massive all-out loss lost them on

the night.

Expectation management

0:34:520:34:57

already being Manoj

0:34:570:35:03

already being Manoj -- being

managed. Actual voters telling us

0:35:030:35:05

what they think. Did they have

consequences that Parliamentary

0:35:050:35:08

politics?

They could do this time.

It reminds me, Steve will remember

0:35:080:35:15

this, 1990 when the Tories did

disastrously in local elections.

0:35:150:35:19

Kenneth Baker went out on the

streets and exempted we kept once

0:35:190:35:27

loved. I don't think that will

happen this time. Kate is right,

0:35:270:35:30

Brandon Lewis, the Tory party

chairman has already started to

0:35:300:35:34

manage expectations. He generally

believe they are in for a drubbing,

0:35:340:35:41

particularly in London. These will

last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip

0:35:410:35:46

are doing well. In the last year,

Ukip's vote has virtually

0:35:460:35:50

disappeared. So all three other

parties, their votes have gone up in

0:35:500:35:54

by-elections. It depends where that

vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats

0:35:540:35:57

be able to hold onto the seats they

won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal

0:35:570:36:03

Democrats be able to hold onto the

six? I think it will be a drumming

0:36:030:36:07

but I think it will be patchy. Andy

Street has been reasonably popular

0:36:070:36:14

in the West Midlands. If they do

that they will have a 1990 situation

0:36:140:36:18

and that is all they will talk

about.

Even if they lose

0:36:180:36:21

Westminster?

Probably.

How important

is it for Labour to do well, do they

0:36:210:36:26

seem to be be -- do they need to be

seen making advances, to keep up

0:36:260:36:34

with the idea they are on the Tory's

heels?

I think it is important for

0:36:340:36:40

that whatever happens I don't think

it will have a huge impact on the

0:36:400:36:43

national picture because I think it

will confirm the dynamics as they

0:36:430:36:46

already are, in other words Jeremy

Corbyn has been in a strong position

0:36:460:36:50

since the general election and that

will be confirmed. Theresa May has

0:36:500:36:54

been in a fragile position since the

general election and that will be

0:36:540:36:58

confirmed. But by that point Brexit

will be reaching or coming close to

0:36:580:37:02

one of its several climactic son I

think that will shape the national

0:37:020:37:06

picture. The local elections will be

really important for local

0:37:060:37:10

government, who inherit the

nightmarish budget. It won't change

0:37:100:37:15

the national picture very much.

Iain

said Ukip's vote has been falling

0:37:150:37:22

and they have had their troubles

recently as well. Important to see

0:37:220:37:25

where their vote goes and confirms

we are moving back to two party

0:37:250:37:29

politics maybe?

I think it does

nationally but locally it's a

0:37:290:37:34

different picture because the Ukip

vote tends to go on all kinds of

0:37:340:37:37

directions. It doesn't necessarily

go where you think it will. So the

0:37:370:37:42

Liberal Democrats and the Greens do

quite well at local elections,

0:37:420:37:45

whereas nationally they don't do

very well at all. I think sometimes

0:37:450:37:48

you do see people who would vote for

any other party going for any other

0:37:480:37:52

party and not necessarily the Tories

and Labour. I think it comes down to

0:37:520:37:56

how much this comes down to Brexit.

Do people care more about Brexit or

0:37:560:38:02

bins question mark in areas like

London, I think Brexit and bigger

0:38:020:38:07

national issues will have a bearing.

Brexit one way or another will help

0:38:070:38:12

with your bins?

London has become a

Labour city. Huge capital city with

0:38:120:38:20

millions and millions has become a

Labour stronghold. That is

0:38:200:38:23

significant for all kinds of

reasons. It has also become as

0:38:230:38:27

strong as it used to be in Scotland.

Even in 2010 in the general

0:38:270:38:32

election, London voted Labour by a

wide margin. That is quite a

0:38:320:38:37

significant development.

We need to

leave it there just now, coming back

0:38:370:38:41

to you later in the programme.

0:38:410:38:43

It's coming up to 11.40,

you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:430:38:45

Still to come...

0:38:450:38:46

We speak to Former Northern Ireland

Secretary James Brokenshire

0:38:460:38:49

about returning to Parliament

after major surgery for cancer.

0:38:490:38:50

Of students, and that support will

also be available on a pro rata

0:38:530:38:56

basis to part-time students, so

these people choosing to study and

0:38:560:38:58

work or perhaps who have caring

responsibilities and need to study,

0:38:580:39:00

or

0:39:000:39:00

or perhaps students who are older,

looking to perhaps retrain or apps

0:39:000:39:03

kill themselves at an older age,

we've got to get away from simply

0:39:030:39:05

regarding students as 18-year-old

school leavers, and that's why our

0:39:050:39:07

system in Wales reflects that.

But

whatever happens in England will

0:39:070:39:09

also have a big

0:39:090:39:10

Hello and welcome to

Sunday Politics Wales.

0:39:140:39:16

Later in today's programme,

what's Wales doing to get ready

0:39:160:39:18

for the carless world?

0:39:180:39:19

Not much, according to Plaid Cymru,

and Julie Morgan will be

0:39:190:39:22

here to tell us why she wants to be

Labour's number two in Wales.

0:39:220:39:25

But first, tuition fees

were in the news this week

0:39:250:39:27

when Theresa May announced a review

of how they work in England,

0:39:270:39:30

although scrapping

them is off the table.

0:39:300:39:32

It is, of course, one of those

areas which is devolved

0:39:320:39:35

to the Welsh Government,

but what happens to universities

0:39:350:39:37

across the border has

a massive impact over here.

0:39:370:39:39

So what could it mean in Wales?

0:39:390:39:41

That was my first question

to the Education Secretary,

0:39:410:39:43

Kirsty Williams, when I met her

in her office in Brecon.

0:39:430:39:45

At the moment, because it's just

a review, it's difficult to estimate

0:39:450:39:48

what the impact will be,

but I welcome the opportunity

0:39:480:39:51

to share with colleagues

across the border in England

0:39:510:39:53

the findings of our Diamond Review

that looked at sustainability

0:39:530:39:55

within the higher education sector

and how we can best

0:39:550:39:58

support students.

0:39:580:39:59

In fact we've already shared that

information and the work we've been

0:39:590:40:02

doing in Wales as we implement

what I would regard as the most

0:40:020:40:06

progressive system of student

support anywhere in the UK.

0:40:060:40:08

And to an extent, do you think

rather than just looking at the fees

0:40:080:40:15

issue, should they also be looking,

as Diamond did in Wales,

0:40:150:40:17

at the grants issue as well,

that maybe increasingly

0:40:170:40:19

that is a more important issue

for students than tuition fees?

0:40:190:40:22

Absolutely.

0:40:220:40:23

If you listen to students and those

representing them in the NUS,

0:40:230:40:26

it is maintenance, the upfront

living costs, that are of most

0:40:260:40:28

concern to students.

0:40:280:40:31

That was echoed in the findings

of the Diamond Review,

0:40:310:40:35

and that's why we in Wales have

taken the decision we have,

0:40:350:40:38

that from this September,

the start of the new academic year,

0:40:380:40:42

we will be providing support

for children and students from less

0:40:420:40:47

well-off backgrounds

with generous maintenance support.

0:40:470:40:50

Also, crucially, what we are doing

differently in Wales is recognising

0:40:500:40:53

that there are different types

of students, and that support

0:40:530:40:56

will also be available on a pro rata

basis to part-time students,

0:40:560:41:00

so that people choosing to study

and work or perhaps who have caring

0:41:000:41:03

responsibilities and need to study,

or perhaps students who are older,

0:41:030:41:08

looking to perhaps retrain

or upskill themselves at an older

0:41:080:41:14

age - we've got to get away

from simply regarding students

0:41:140:41:17

as 18-year-old school leavers,

and that's why our system

0:41:170:41:19

in Wales reflects that.

0:41:190:41:23

in Wales reflects that.

0:41:230:41:24

But whatever happens in England

will also have a big impact

0:41:240:41:27

on what happens here in Wales,

even though it's a devolved area,

0:41:270:41:30

and one of the things they've been

talking about in England is having

0:41:300:41:33

different fees for different courses

and kinds of courses.

0:41:330:41:37

Do you think that would necessarily

have to be in the case in Wales

0:41:370:41:41

were it to happen in England?

0:41:410:41:43

You're absolutely right,

we can't pretend that because this

0:41:430:41:46

area is devolved we don't have

to take cognizance of what happens

0:41:460:41:48

in England, and I am especially

concerned that there were major

0:41:480:41:51

changes in England that have

financial consequences.

0:41:510:41:58

That would need to be reflected

in the Barnett Formula and how money

0:41:580:42:01

flows from Westminster to Wales,

but on the issue of differentiation,

0:42:010:42:04

I think we need to be

really cautious here.

0:42:040:42:08

It was something Diamond looked

at and didn't recommend,

0:42:080:42:10

and I would hate for us to be

in a situation where certain

0:42:100:42:15

institutions or certain courses

were only available to a cohort

0:42:150:42:18

of students who could

afford to do that.

0:42:180:42:25

What is really important

is that we have equity in our system

0:42:250:42:28

and that your ability to study

is based on your innate talents

0:42:280:42:31

and desire and ability

to reach your full potential,

0:42:310:42:33

and we shouldn't be closing off

options because there

0:42:330:42:35

is differential fees or costs.

0:42:350:42:40

But would it be beyond your control?

0:42:400:42:46

But would it be beyond your control?

0:42:460:42:46

Can you conceive of a situation

whereby there are these differential

0:42:460:42:49

fees being charged for different

courses in England,

0:42:490:42:50

but not in Wales?

0:42:500:42:52

Do you think you would have

to follow England's lead?

0:42:520:42:55

We would have to look at how

we support our system

0:42:550:42:58

in the light of changes

across the border in England.

0:42:580:43:01

We've always done that.

0:43:010:43:03

But I would really,

really warn against that.

0:43:030:43:06

Indeed, other people who have looked

at the system have highlighted

0:43:060:43:08

the problems with that.

0:43:080:43:11

Justine Greening, who of course has

just left her job at the last

0:43:110:43:14

reshuffle in Westminster,

from the education portfolio -

0:43:140:43:18

she herself has at a very early

stage warned against that,

0:43:180:43:20

because she recognises,

as we do in Wales, the impact that

0:43:200:43:26

might have on social mobility

and creating a two-tier system

0:43:260:43:30

where those who can afford cam

and those from less well

0:43:300:43:32

off background cannot.

0:43:320:43:35

You mentioned the new offer

being made to students which will be

0:43:350:43:38

rolled out from September this year,

where grants appear rather

0:43:380:43:40

than paying an element

of the tuition fees.

0:43:400:43:42

Where are you on that now,

how ready are you, how good to go

0:43:420:43:45

is the new system in Wales?

0:43:450:43:49

Everybody has worked really hard,

including the Student Loans Company,

0:43:490:43:51

which of course is the organisation

which administers the grants

0:43:510:43:54

and the fees system and loan system

for us, so I am confident

0:43:540:43:57

that we will be in a position

to roll out Diamond for both

0:43:570:44:00

undergraduate, part-time

and full-time students.

0:44:000:44:07

We have interim arrangements

in place for postgraduate,

0:44:070:44:09

and the postgraduate elements

of the Diamond reforms will come

0:44:090:44:11

fully onstream a year September.

0:44:110:44:15

fully onstream a year September.

0:44:150:44:17

To what extent are you confident

that you know what kind of student

0:44:170:44:20

will be accessing what kind of money

and how much money, because the very

0:44:200:44:23

poorest students will be

eligible for £10,000 grants,

0:44:230:44:25

then £7,000, and

everyone gets £1,000.

0:44:250:44:26

Do you know who will be

getting what, roughly?

0:44:260:44:34

As you quite rightly say,

every eligible student from Wales

0:44:340:44:37

will be entitled to a £1,000

non-repayable grant,

0:44:370:44:39

because we recognise there is a role

for both the individual

0:44:390:44:41

and the state.

0:44:410:44:45

The individual benefits

from a higher education,

0:44:450:44:47

but so do we as a nation,

and we want to reflect

0:44:470:44:50

that in ensuring that we

contribute for everybody.

0:44:500:44:54

But then we have the

means testing element.

0:44:540:44:57

We anticipate that approximately,

on current data, around a third

0:44:570:45:03

of Welsh students will be

eligible for the full grant,

0:45:030:45:06

and an average Welsh student

in the system at the moment

0:45:060:45:12

at the moment would be,

going forward,

0:45:120:45:14

eligible for a grant

of around £7,000 a year

0:45:140:45:16

towards upfront living costs.

0:45:160:45:19

So that's one element

of your brief, higher education.

0:45:190:45:24

But then to look at schools as well,

and the results we get

0:45:240:45:30

from schools and so on,

we have just seen a few days ago

0:45:300:45:33

some data being released,

specifically on the level two

0:45:330:45:36

thresholds, how many GCSEs

they get between A*-C,

0:45:360:45:38

and they have to have five

to cross that threshold.

0:45:380:45:40

The Schools Challenge Cymru,

a set-up with £10 million to help

0:45:400:45:43

managing schools in Wales,

was scrapped when you became

0:45:430:45:47

Education Secretary.

0:45:470:45:50

But the latest statistics

for the schools show

0:45:500:45:52

they did really well.

0:45:520:45:53

34 of 39 of those schools saw

an increase, 12 by more than ten

0:45:530:45:56

percentage points in just three

years - a remarkable

0:45:560:45:59

turnaround for those schools.

0:45:590:46:02

Was it wise to scrap that

scheme, do you think?

0:46:020:46:05

Let's be clear, when

the scheme was established,

0:46:050:46:08

it was a time-limited scheme to be

able to accelerate improvement

0:46:080:46:10

in those schools causing the most

concern that that particular

0:46:100:46:13

point in time.

0:46:130:46:16

It was the right thing to do then.

0:46:160:46:19

Crucially, what we are doing now

as ensuring that all schools,

0:46:190:46:24

Crucially, what we are doing now

is ensuring that all schools,

0:46:240:46:26

whether they were a part

of the original scheme or not,

0:46:260:46:28

where there are concerns

about performance, they are able

0:46:280:46:31

to access support from our regional

consortia, so I congratulate those

0:46:310:46:35

schools who have made progress,

and unfortunately in some areas

0:46:350:46:37

progress has been made

despite that investment.

0:46:370:46:42

progress has not been made

despite that investment.

0:46:420:46:44

What is crucial for me going forward

is that we have made resources

0:46:440:46:47

available to the regional consortia

so that the learning from what had

0:46:470:46:50

been Schools Challenge Cymru,

which made a difference to those

0:46:500:46:53

schools not performing

where we wouldn't be,

0:46:530:46:54

how we can use that learning

across the whole of the sector,

0:46:540:46:57

so that all schools can benefit

from that learning and that support,

0:46:570:47:00

rather than a small number

of schools that were included

0:47:000:47:02

in your original scheme.

0:47:020:47:03

in the original scheme.

0:47:030:47:06

But you don't have any

concerns at all, then,

0:47:060:47:08

or any fear that perhaps having now

pulled the plug on that funding,

0:47:080:47:12

those schools could be

going back a step in future?

0:47:120:47:15

What was really important

is that we saw sustainable

0:47:150:47:18

change in those schools,

sustainable ways in which that

0:47:180:47:22

change could continue to move

forward once the scaffolding,

0:47:220:47:25

the extra scaffolding of the schools

challenge scheme was brought away,

0:47:250:47:29

because it was always the intention

that the scheme would

0:47:290:47:32

be time-limited.

0:47:320:47:33

Those schools needed an extra boost,

extra support at that moment.

0:47:330:47:35

Many of them have

made good progress.

0:47:350:47:37

Unfortunately not all.

0:47:370:47:38

What is important now

is that we give all schools

0:47:380:47:41

the opportunity to learn from that

experience and have that

0:47:410:47:43

support rather than a small

number of schools.

0:47:430:47:45

But it was always a time-limited

programme, and what we do need

0:47:450:47:48

to ensure is that we have a self

improving system across all of our

0:47:480:47:51

schools where we can learn

from the best and embed sustainable

0:47:510:47:54

change so that can be

built upon year-on-year.

0:47:540:48:04

Kirsty Williams,

thank you very much.

0:48:040:48:08

You're welcome.

0:48:080:48:11

The year 2040 might

seem a long way off.

0:48:110:48:13

It's 22 years away, since you ask!

0:48:130:48:16

But that's when the sale of diesel

and petrol cars will be

0:48:160:48:19

banned across the UK.

0:48:190:48:21

Well, we've been told

that the Welsh Government has no

0:48:210:48:24

plan in place to deal

with the changes.

0:48:240:48:25

Plaid Cymru AM Simon Thomas has told

this programme Welsh ministers

0:48:250:48:28

are "off pace" in developing

alternatives, like public transport,

0:48:280:48:30

walking and cycling.

0:48:300:48:31

Eleanor Gruffydd Jones reports.

0:48:310:48:37

Eleanor Gruffydd Jones reports.

0:48:370:48:38

Good evening and welcome

to Wales Today.

0:48:420:48:51

Our top story on Thursday

the 25th of February 2038 -

0:48:510:48:54

our main towns and cities in Wales

are officially car-free.

0:48:540:48:57

Bangor and Aberystwyth

are fully pedestrianised,

0:48:570:48:58

there is a metro system covering

Swansea, and cycle

0:48:580:49:00

superhighways all over Cardiff.

0:49:000:49:04

Is this what the future

has in store for us,

0:49:040:49:06

or is it all a pipedream?

0:49:060:49:09

We are a nation of car lovers.

0:49:090:49:11

There is one car for every

two of us in Wales.

0:49:110:49:14

That's above the UK average,

and that's a number that's gone up

0:49:140:49:17

over the last five years.

0:49:170:49:20

So we are being told

to leave our cars and take

0:49:200:49:23

other forms of transport.

0:49:230:49:24

Walk, even.

0:49:240:49:25

Because it's better for our health,

the environment, and our wallets.

0:49:250:49:28

And cities across Wales

are stepping up.

0:49:280:49:34

Cardiff, for example,

is rolling out these

0:49:340:49:36

Nextbikes across the city,

which are a bit like

0:49:360:49:39

Boris bikes in London.

0:49:390:49:41

You can pick them up in one part

of the city and drop

0:49:410:49:44

them off in another.

0:49:440:49:45

More cycle corridors

are planned, car-free

0:49:450:49:46

days in the city centre,

and, of course, that

0:49:460:49:49

new metro central transport hub.

0:49:490:49:50

So, is Wales ready for

that car-free future?

0:49:500:49:58

The UK Government has talked

about phasing out diesel

0:49:580:50:00

and petrol transport,

cars in particular.

0:50:000:50:01

The Welsh Government

has no plans for that,

0:50:010:50:03

and I think that's what the next

step for the Welsh Government

0:50:030:50:08

has to be, is how do

you prepare us for a future,

0:50:080:50:11

in just 20 years' time,

when we may not be able to buy

0:50:110:50:14

new purely diesel or petrol cars.

0:50:140:50:18

OK, then, let's see

what other cities are doing.

0:50:180:50:19

Over to Copenhagen.

0:50:190:50:23

Here, over half its people cycle

to work every day in bicycle

0:50:230:50:26

lanes spanning 200 miles.

0:50:260:50:28

It has set itself the target to go

carbon neutral by 2025.

0:50:280:50:31

Its former environment chief

wants to bring the Danish

0:50:310:50:33

revolution to Wales.

0:50:330:50:38

revolution to Wales.

0:50:380:50:40

Around 60% of Copenhagen residents

on bicycle tracks would say

0:50:400:50:43

they cycle because it is by far

the most efficient and comfortable

0:50:430:50:46

way to get around the city.

0:50:460:50:48

The amount of segregated bicycle

lanes you will see around Copenhagen

0:50:480:50:51

was the result of ongoing investment

over the last almost 100 years,

0:50:510:50:53

so it's a long process.

0:50:530:50:58

so it's a long process.

0:50:580:50:58

As a politician, I would suggest

that Welsh politicians should

0:50:580:51:00

basically stand up and say,

we would like this development

0:51:000:51:03

to start, we would like it

to continue, and we would actually

0:51:030:51:05

like to hand it onto the generation.

0:51:050:51:11

like to hand it onto the generation.

0:51:110:51:15

How about car nation Germany?

0:51:160:51:18

It is piloting free public transport

in five of its cities to meet

0:51:180:51:21

EU pollution targets.

0:51:210:51:22

Should Wales be using its ideas

to make public transport more

0:51:220:51:25

attractive than the car?

0:51:250:51:29

If you look at the quality of air

in our cities, it's not great,

0:51:290:51:32

so we are one of the worst areas

in the UK, and anyway,

0:51:320:51:35

we should be leading the UK,

we should be setting higher

0:51:350:51:38

ambition, really, to offer people

alternatives to the car.

0:51:380:51:40

I'm not sure we want to be

completely car free.

0:51:400:51:42

Some access is going to be required,

but it is used at the moment

0:51:420:51:46

as the first option,

and that, we really need to tackle.

0:51:460:51:53

Well, Cardiff University's Doctor

Justin Spinney suggests some outside

0:51:530:51:55

the box thinking which could just

put Welsh cities ahead

0:51:550:51:57

of their European counterparts.

0:51:570:52:02

of their European counterparts.

0:52:020:52:03

We could see the situation

where you will just say, "Alexa,

0:52:030:52:08

"I want my car outside my door

in five minutes' time."

0:52:080:52:11

It's not your car, it

would just turn up, it will do

0:52:110:52:14

the journey want to do,

and that it will go home.

0:52:140:52:16

the journey want to do,

and then it will go home.

0:52:160:52:19

We are way off the pace.

0:52:190:52:20

We don't have a coherent plan.

0:52:200:52:22

It's left far too much

for individual local

0:52:220:52:24

authorities to decide.

0:52:240:52:25

It hasn't always been their fault,

because I don't think the UK

0:52:250:52:28

Government has been particularly

good on it either, but the really

0:52:280:52:30

positive thing is, there

are lots of examples out there.

0:52:300:52:33

Cities, towns and communities have

done this, and they have done it

0:52:330:52:36

in an effective way,

and they have taken the public with.

0:52:360:52:38

in an effective way, and they have

taken the public with them.

0:52:380:52:42

In terms of the Government,

do they want to get

0:52:420:52:43

people out of their cars?

0:52:430:52:45

I think they do.

0:52:450:52:46

You know, in Wales,

we have the Welsh Active Travel Act,

0:52:460:52:48

we have the Future Generations Act.

0:52:480:52:50

Both of those are a real

commitment to more liveable,

0:52:500:52:52

sustainable places.

0:52:520:52:53

If we come back to that idea

of the car as a benchmark

0:52:530:52:56

in terms of comfort,

convenience, enjoyment,

0:52:560:52:58

sociability, trying to encourage

people out of their cars

0:52:580:53:00

is a real uphill struggle.

0:53:000:53:01

The Welsh Government says measures

such as the Clean Air Plan

0:53:010:53:04

and the Active Travel Act have set

the wheels in motion.

0:53:040:53:07

It says there are already positive

signs in areas such as public

0:53:070:53:09

transport and electric cars

which show we are on our way

0:53:090:53:12

down that car-free path.

0:53:120:53:17

down that car-free path.

0:53:170:53:18

Now, the race is on to be the first

Deputy Leader of Welsh Labour.

0:53:180:53:21

The job has just been created,

and the rules say if the leader

0:53:210:53:24

is a man, the deputy has

to be a woman.

0:53:240:53:27

Two women have put their

hat in the ring to be

0:53:270:53:29

Carwyn Jones' number two.

0:53:290:53:30

We hope to speak to Carolyn Harris

in the coming weeks,

0:53:300:53:33

but this week it's the turn

of her opponent, the Cardiff

0:53:330:53:36

North AM, Julie Morgan.

0:53:360:53:41

North AM, Julie Morgan.

0:53:410:53:44

Good morning.

Why'd you think Welsh

Labour needs a deputy, you have done

0:53:440:53:49

well till now, why does it need to

be created?

It is important to have

0:53:490:53:54

two people at as leader and deputy,

and with the rules we have brought

0:53:540:54:00

in we need to have one always being

a woman, and I think that is good

0:54:000:54:05

because we need to have a lead ship

reflecting the public, in which

0:54:050:54:09

women can relate to, so it has been

very good in order to make the

0:54:090:54:15

leadership more representative of

the country. I think that's one of

0:54:150:54:17

the main advantages.

What is your

pitch going to be? This is the job

0:54:170:54:23

interview element of it, what will

you bring to the role?

First of all,

0:54:230:54:26

I am the only woman, possibly the

only person, who has been a

0:54:260:54:31

councillor, an Assembly member, is

an Assembly member at the moment,

0:54:310:54:35

and who has been an MP, and I don't

think there is any weren't -- there

0:54:350:54:39

is anyone else of that experience in

Wales. Maybe the person let alone

0:54:390:54:47

woman. So I bring experience and

knowledge of those areas, and adding

0:54:470:54:49

it is important we don't think in

silos of air dams, MPs, local

0:54:490:54:52

government, we want to work

together, and I think I am in a

0:54:520:54:56

unique position.

But those silos do

exist. Wouldn't it be better if the

0:54:560:55:01

deputy was a member of Parliament as

the leader is, in the Assembly,

0:55:010:55:05

wouldn't be better to have the

deputy in Parliament?

You would then

0:55:050:55:09

restricted to an even smaller number

of people. As it is now it is

0:55:090:55:13

restricted to 58 people who can

apply be deputy. I think the

0:55:130:55:24

important thing is the job and what

you can do with it rather than

0:55:240:55:27

whether you are an AM or MP or local

government leader, but I must say I

0:55:270:55:30

regret there is no local government

leader on the ballot paper because I

0:55:300:55:33

think that would be a great

advantage.

Debbie Wilcox, the

0:55:330:55:35

Newport council leader of the Welsh

government local government

0:55:350:55:39

Association stood down and is now

supporting you. What would you bring

0:55:390:55:42

to the role, what is your pitch, why

should they vote for you?

As I say I

0:55:420:55:48

bring the experience, but I also

have the experience of a very

0:55:480:55:51

marginal seat in Cardiff North. I

thought I'd kept that seat, Labour,

0:55:510:55:57

on and off most of the time, and we

had to campaign for every vote

0:55:570:56:00

there. I can bring a campaigning

ability, and in the last Welsh

0:56:000:56:06

Assembly elections, I have the

highest number of votes for any

0:56:060:56:10

individual can sit in Wales.

What is

the point of the role, then?

0:56:100:56:14

Campaigning is one of them, you

think?

I think that is part of it

0:56:140:56:18

and one of the key points is to

engage the 25,000 members, because

0:56:180:56:22

we have been very successful in

Wales, we have been very successful

0:56:220:56:28

throughout the UK, but we do have

25,000 members, a huge number of

0:56:280:56:32

people, lots of potential, and I

want to work with them and harness

0:56:320:56:36

their energies and abilities, and I

want them to feel it is meaningful

0:56:360:56:39

to be a member of the Labour Party.

My main aim is to work with the

0:56:390:56:51

members.

How will you do that?

In

Cardiff North I have a red gazebo

0:56:510:56:55

and I go around every part of

Cardiff North putting up the red

0:56:550:56:57

gazebo is a trademark, seeing people

and discussing their issues, and

0:56:570:56:59

that's what I would do all over

Wales, I would go around with a red

0:56:590:57:02

gazebo and talk to members of the

public, find out the key issues they

0:57:020:57:05

want us to campaign on, so it would

be a consultative role. I would

0:57:050:57:09

certainly do that with members as

well. The members are spread out all

0:57:090:57:12

over Wales and I think it is

important that we act on an all

0:57:120:57:16

Wales level. Consult the members,

meet them all, decide the important

0:57:160:57:21

issues for them, and make them feel

the party is there for them to

0:57:210:57:27

fulfil their dreams and wishes, why

they came to the party.

What happens

0:57:270:57:31

if the message you get from the

membership is at odds with what the

0:57:310:57:35

leadership is doing? Are you Carwyn

Jones's voice to the members or the

0:57:350:57:40

members's voice to Carwyn Jones?

I

see that is not a conflict at all.

0:57:400:57:47

It could be, couldn't it?

The

important point of the post is to

0:57:470:57:51

give the members that potential,

that way of saying what they feel.

0:57:510:57:55

Inevitably there is conflict, there

was always conflict whenever you

0:57:550:57:58

form ideas and policy and that is a

good thing. I would see myself as

0:57:580:58:01

the conduit that would enable that

to happen.

You said you know there

0:58:010:58:10

will be inevitably divisions within

the party. How will you manage those

0:58:100:58:13

divisions and how do you make sure

there is a united front for the

0:58:130:58:17

party?

You make sure there is a

democracy embedded in the party, so

0:58:170:58:22

everybody has a chance to have a

fair say, and then you would vote on

0:58:220:58:27

things democratically. You have the

opportunity to discuss things that

0:58:270:58:30

length, and I think people can

always accept if their point of view

0:58:300:58:35

doesn't come forward as long as

there has been a fair chance for

0:58:350:58:47

them to be listened to.

What you

think the mothership in Wales is

0:58:470:58:50

made up of, is it people who have

joint because of Jeremy Corbyn and

0:58:500:58:53

that element or is it because of the

track record of Welsh Labour,

0:58:530:58:55

because they are probably two

different things.

It is both. We

0:58:550:58:57

have a really good track record in

Wales, you only asked to look at

0:58:570:59:00

what happened to the Labour Party in

Scotland. -- have to look. Welsh

0:59:000:59:04

Labour has kept its identity as

Welsh and been very successful. Some

0:59:040:59:08

of the new members have certainly

come because of the Corbyn bounced,

0:59:080:59:12

and it is great that they have

joined, and I would want to

0:59:120:59:16

represent every one of those

members, anyone who is a Labour

0:59:160:59:27

member, member in Wales or whether

they joined recently as a result of

0:59:270:59:30

Corbyn, but I think as well as

Corbyn it would be a result of our

0:59:300:59:33

success in Wales. It often isn't one

or the other.

You said earlier it is

0:59:330:59:36

important that the deputy is a woman

because women in politics can relate

0:59:360:59:38

to you then. I wonder how you feel

about how safe place politics is for

0:59:380:59:42

women in Wales at the moment.

This

is something we have to explore. It

0:59:420:59:49

is obviously a sensitive subject and

we have had a very difficult time in

0:59:490:59:52

the Assembly with all these issues

that have come up, but I think it is

0:59:520:59:56

essential, the role of the deputy,

particularly at this time if the

0:59:561:00:04

deputy will be a woman, to look at

whether it is safe in the party for

1:00:041:00:07

women in Wales.

You think it is?

That is something we need to do is

1:00:071:00:10

discuss. I know women have expressed

individual concerns, so I think the

1:00:101:00:13

role of the deputy would be to

explore that and find out how women

1:00:131:00:18

feel. Traditionally it has always

been difficult for women in

1:00:181:00:21

political parties, all political

parties, because they have always

1:00:211:00:25

been male dominated. Women have

never had a fair share, really, in

1:00:251:00:30

any political party, and I wouldn't

want to see my role if I was deputy

1:00:301:00:35

-- I

1:00:351:00:45

would want to see my role to see

that they were heard and did feel

1:00:481:00:51

safe, and if they didn't we would

have to do something about it.

Of

1:00:511:00:54

course there are sensitivities in

Wales because what happened with the

1:00:541:00:56

issues surrounding Carl Sargeant,

but to what extent do you think the

1:00:561:00:58

Assembly and politics in Wales has

fallen behind Westminster where they

1:00:581:01:00

seem to be taking actions in terms

of making politics safer for women?

1:01:001:01:04

There is certainly action in

Westminster but I have been in

1:01:041:01:05

Westminster and the Assembly and I

know when I was in Westminster there

1:01:051:01:08

was far more overt sexism operating

there than in the Assembly, and I

1:01:081:01:10

think that has been helped by the

fact that there has always been a

1:01:101:01:13

good balance of women in the

Assembly. So I think Westminster

1:01:131:01:16

have taken steps and I think there

have been steps taken in the

1:01:161:01:20

Assembly. I certainly welcome the

statement by the presiding officer

1:01:201:01:25

last week about respect, I thought

that was very important, and all the

1:01:251:01:28

party leaders have signed up to it.

So things are happening but there is

1:01:281:01:32

a lot more to do in that whole field

and I would see that as one of my

1:01:321:01:36

priorities.

Julie Morgan, thank you

for coming in, plenty of campaigning

1:01:361:01:41

on the way few but thanks for coming

in.

1:01:411:01:43

That's it for another week.

1:01:431:01:44

Wales Live is on on Wednesday

evening at 10:30.

1:01:441:01:46

But for now that's all from me.

1:01:461:01:48

Diolch am wylio,

thanks for watching.

1:01:481:01:50

Time to go back to Sarah.

1:01:501:01:51

Welcome back.

1:02:001:02:02

Now, he was the Northern Ireland

Secretary at a crucial time

1:02:021:02:05

in UK-Ireland relations.

1:02:051:02:06

But late last year,

James Brokenshire realised

1:02:061:02:10

he had a health problem,

when he began coughing up blood

1:02:101:02:13

whilst on a break with his family.

1:02:131:02:15

Tests revealed a cancerous lesion

on his lung and at the start

1:02:151:02:17

of the year he announced his

resignation from the Cabinet

1:02:171:02:20

to undergo major surgery.

1:02:201:02:23

His operation was a success and,

a few short weeks after being

1:02:231:02:26

discharged from hospital,

he has returned to Parliament

1:02:261:02:28

and I'm delighted to say

he's also joined us now.

1:02:281:02:30

Welcome to the programme.

1:02:301:02:32

Thank you very much, good to be

back.

How are you feeling?

1:02:321:02:37

Remarkably well, very strong. First

week back in Parliament, which was

1:02:371:02:41

quite emotional, people coming up

and giving you hugs. It's

1:02:411:02:45

interesting how something like this,

from across the comparative party, a

1:02:451:02:52

unifying issue, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

Nicky Morgan, coming and welcoming

1:02:521:02:56

you back. And Labour MPs, SNP MPs

and the Lib Dems, real warmth. It is

1:02:561:03:02

a rarity, as we know at times, where

some of the political bait is very

1:03:021:03:07

intense, to have that very warm

reception. So I was very moved.

You

1:03:071:03:13

look very vigorous, it is only about

six weeks?

About six weeks. The care

1:03:131:03:18

and support I received from the NHS

was absolutely outstanding. I just

1:03:181:03:22

could not fault the hospital

treatment that I received. I suppose

1:03:221:03:28

being disciplined about getting

back, getting myself fit, forcing

1:03:281:03:31

myself to do lots of exercise, do

lots of walks, having Cassiem my

1:03:311:03:38

children, strong family support

behind me as well, it has just been

1:03:381:03:41

amazing. The number of people that

are written in, e-mailed, wishing me

1:03:411:03:47

and, whether they support my own

party or not, just wanting me to do

1:03:471:03:50

well. So yes, positive. The

prognosis is good. I think I was

1:03:501:03:55

lucky that I was able to pick it up

early enough. But it has I think

1:03:551:04:00

underlying to me a number of issues

about lung cancer, as I had a small

1:04:001:04:07

cancerous Schumer, where there is

some stigma Ramis. Around 15% of

1:04:071:04:12

cases of lung cancer have no link to

smoking. I think people try and form

1:04:121:04:17

some judgments, that is someone's

fault. People shouldn't do that at

1:04:171:04:20

all about cancer. It is about early

intervention, picking it up early,

1:04:201:04:25

following it through. There are many

moments where I could have said, too

1:04:251:04:28

busy, can't actually do this, but

following that through, getting the

1:04:281:04:32

treatment I needed, I am so

delighted to be here feeling as

1:04:321:04:36

strong as I am.

You are having these

tests at a fairly crucial time in

1:04:361:04:41

the Brexit negotiations. You where

Northern Ireland Secretary and at

1:04:411:04:45

the very point when the Prime

Minister was having to put together

1:04:451:04:47

a deal acceptable to the EU and DUP

about what was going to happen to

1:04:471:04:51

prevent a hard border across Ireland

at the end of last year, when you

1:04:511:04:56

are still Northern Ireland

Secretary, I am sure you have kept

1:04:561:04:59

up with this even though you are now

on the backbenches. We have been

1:04:591:05:02

speaking on the programme about the

possibility of a customs union with

1:05:021:05:05

the EU. Is it necessary to have one

in order to avoid a hard border on

1:05:051:05:11

the island of Ireland?

Last time I

was here we were touching on that

1:05:111:05:15

issue and the first phase

negotiations that had concluded. In

1:05:151:05:20

essence, the three elements we look

at, in essence the negotiations on

1:05:201:05:24

the trade arrangement with the EU,

if that does provide the issues

1:05:241:05:30

around the border, then specific

proposals the UK Government would

1:05:301:05:33

then make and that Ms backstop of

alignment to deal with the

1:05:331:05:36

North-South issues.

That was a

remarkable thing, because you've

1:05:361:05:42

promised full alignment with the

rules of the internal market and

1:05:421:05:46

Customs union, basically keeping, in

essence, the UK in the single market

1:05:461:05:50

and Customs union if some other

solution is found.

It is also

1:05:501:05:54

looking at the equivalence issues,

of how you can create the same

1:05:541:05:56

outcomes without having full

alignment. I think that is

1:05:561:06:00

important. This whole debate around

the customs union actually comes

1:06:001:06:04

down to, what is our future

relationship with the EU? Do we

1:06:041:06:08

need, as I believe we do, to be able

to negotiate agreements externally,

1:06:081:06:13

do we ensure we are not simply a

rule taker, that we just abide by

1:06:131:06:18

the rules and almost we voted to

leave the EU but we are now even in

1:06:181:06:22

a worse situation of actually being

subject to everything but without a

1:06:221:06:27

say at all. I just don't see that as

tenable.

Yet that is exactly the

1:06:271:06:32

situation we find ourselves in is

another solution to the Irish border

1:06:321:06:36

isn't found, isn't it? That is what

the Prime Minister signed up to,

1:06:361:06:40

full alignment with the single

market and customs union unless

1:06:401:06:43

there is another agreement, which we

haven't seen emerge?

I believe we

1:06:431:06:47

can agree with the EU, this free

trade agreement, deals for goods and

1:06:471:06:51

services, because it is the services

element that is really crucial to

1:06:511:06:55

this as well. Whilst also ensuring

yes, we don't have that hard border

1:06:551:07:03

emerging on the island of Ireland

with everything that goes with it.

1:07:031:07:06

The regulatory issues, yes, there

are differences that already exist

1:07:061:07:09

between Northern Ireland and Great

Britain, particularly around some

1:07:091:07:12

animal health and animal welfare

issues. There is experience we can

1:07:121:07:15

point to and there is a way forward,

as to how we negotiate this in the

1:07:151:07:18

weeks I had to get that right

outcome.

It needs to be started on.

1:07:181:07:22

Michel Barnier wants an agreement

about the Irish border before we

1:07:221:07:25

move on to talking about the future

trade relationship?

The first phase,

1:07:251:07:32

it's a tiered basis approach that we

take on how it is about the broad

1:07:321:07:35

issues first and how I believe we

can negotiate an outcome that deals

1:07:351:07:40

with the very sensitive issues of

the Good Friday Agreement, the

1:07:401:07:44

Belfast agreement, and also the

broader issues and North-South

1:07:441:07:46

co-operation on the island of

Ireland. So it actually it's about

1:07:461:07:49

going to back to those first phase

negotiations, following it through

1:07:491:07:53

and getting the right outcome for

the island of Ireland, Northern

1:07:531:07:57

Ireland and the UK as a whole.

Some

of your colleagues who want to make

1:07:571:08:01

out the Irish border is something of

a side issue we shouldn't get too

1:08:011:08:03

worried about say things like the

Good Friday Agreement is out of

1:08:031:08:07

date. You must be worried when you

hear them say things like that? You

1:08:071:08:11

understand how sensitive it is?

When

I return to Parliament and made my

1:08:111:08:15

first interventionist league, I was

very clear on how the Belfast

1:08:151:08:19

agreement, Good Friday Agreement

underpins the situation, the whole

1:08:191:08:24

freedoms and arrangements on the

island of Ireland, how it remains as

1:08:241:08:28

relevant now as it has ever done. I

know some people picked up on does

1:08:281:08:33

this define Brexit? I think actually

there is a ground of commonality and

1:08:331:08:38

realising how important this is.

Yes, over time it maybe there are

1:08:381:08:43

certain issues in slower time, once

we get devolved government backed up

1:08:431:08:47

and running that you could review,

could look at this in a sensible

1:08:471:08:50

fashion. There are certain things

that perhaps people have pointed to,

1:08:501:08:55

mandatory coalitions of devolved

government in Northern Ireland,

1:08:551:08:58

questioned if that is still the

right way forward. That is a

1:08:581:09:01

separate issue, that is in slower

time. The Good Friday and Belfast

1:09:011:09:05

agreement continues to underpin and

needs to define how we look to the

1:09:051:09:09

future.

James Brokenshire, stay with

us. We will bring in some of the

1:09:091:09:12

rest of the panel. As you see it, is

essentially the question of the

1:09:121:09:18

border with Ireland always going to

underline the Brexit talks and

1:09:181:09:21

always be a problem, something

difficult for hard Brexiteers who

1:09:211:09:25

want nothing to do with the customs

union to get around?

It will always

1:09:251:09:29

be a problem until there is a

solution. The Irish government

1:09:291:09:32

doesn't want to border, the British

government doesn't want border,

1:09:321:09:36

European union doesn't want a

border. You have everybody trying to

1:09:361:09:39

go to the point. There was a speech

last September in Belfast, you were

1:09:391:09:45

probably there, where it was

suggested there should be a customs

1:09:451:09:49

arrangement between Britain and the

European Union, between Britain and

1:09:491:09:54

the Republic of Ireland. He

suggested that himself. From the

1:09:541:09:59

Torquay, talks is giving at the

moment you would think he had never

1:09:591:10:02

said that. I don't know what form

that would take but surely if you

1:10:021:10:06

have all three parties to these

agreements wanting the same outcome,

1:10:061:10:09

there ought to be a way of doing

this.

A lot of other things people

1:10:091:10:15

in the EU have said means the means

of getting to that outcome is

1:10:151:10:21

difficult?

The outcome is easy,

everyone agrees. Like the war in

1:10:211:10:27

Iraq, everyone agreed, they wanted

peace in the Middle East, how do you

1:10:271:10:30

get there? The fact they all agree

on the end is not that significant.

1:10:301:10:35

Indeed, the first phase negotiation

which you were nobly involved with,

1:10:351:10:40

and of going tests on Don, reminds

me of that first UN resolution in

1:10:401:10:44

the build-up to the war in Iraq.

Everyone could sign up to it because

1:10:441:10:47

it meant different things to

different people. This is the

1:10:471:10:53

problem, as you know. The Irish

government viewed it differently to

1:10:531:10:55

the British government, who viewed

it differently from the rest of the

1:10:551:10:58

EU. Now we come to the crunch. I can

see no way forward beyond some

1:10:581:11:02

continued membership of the customs

union. You can't have a separate

1:11:021:11:05

arrangement for Northern Ireland,

the DUP wouldn't buy it for a start.

1:11:051:11:10

I gather that is one of the main

reasons why Jeremy Corbyn, was a

1:11:101:11:13

sceptic about all of this, is

signing up to it, because he sees

1:11:131:11:17

now this is the only way of keeping

the open border.

Talking of Jeremy

1:11:171:11:23

Corbyn, one issue we haven't touched

on is a story that has been running

1:11:231:11:28

all week about Corbyn's contacts

with so-called Czechoslovakian

1:11:281:11:31

agent. It was interesting, the way

it is played out, he attacked the

1:11:311:11:35

newspapers for running the stories,

really strong attacks from some Tory

1:11:351:11:39

MPs against him which looks like

they may have rebounded a bit?

The

1:11:391:11:44

thing looking back over this week

which has become clear that has come

1:11:441:11:48

out of this Jeremy Corbyn question

is Labour know exactly what they are

1:11:481:11:50

doing when it comes to social media

and the Conservatives still probably

1:11:501:11:53

don't. If you look at the way Jeremy

Corbyn handled this issue, he made

1:11:531:11:57

his Nvidia and put it out on YouTube

and Twitter and it got thousands and

1:11:571:12:02

thousands and thousands of hits.

Rush might he made his own video. He

1:12:021:12:07

didn't need to speak to newspapers

or television to do it. It allows

1:12:071:12:11

free rein to attack a story like

this, where Jeremy Corbyn does

1:12:111:12:15

actually have real questions to

answer. Whether you think it is

1:12:151:12:19

right or wrong or right or wrong he

was giving state secrets, he still

1:12:191:12:22

met this person and that is a

question he has to answer. Brendan

1:12:221:12:25

Bradley has had to apologise for the

Tweety made. I think one point about

1:12:251:12:29

this that we should all take away is

his apology has been re-tweeted and

1:12:291:12:35

is now an attack line and is vicious

and picked -- vindictive or so

1:12:351:12:42

people need to be kinder to each

other.

There was no evidence he was

1:12:421:12:45

selling state secrets or knew any

state secrets to give away for free,

1:12:451:12:49

which is why you have this sense

that actually the Tories went a

1:12:491:12:52

little too far in describing him as

a traitor, saying he betrayed the

1:12:521:12:56

country and they were the ones...

Hang on a minute, it was one MP that

1:12:561:13:00

got taken to task for that.

He's now

been forced to apologise. The

1:13:001:13:05

Defence Secretary said he betrayed

his country.

You said the whole Tory

1:13:051:13:09

party, yes there were attacks on

Jeremy Corbyn and there still are in

1:13:091:13:11

the media. The Sunday time -- Sunday

Times today has a 2-page spread

1:13:111:13:19

today. Anyone under the age of 40

just discount this sort of thing. It

1:13:191:13:23

is like in the general section, the

stories had no effect on people

1:13:231:13:30

under the age of 40.

We have to

leave it there, thank you all for

1:13:301:13:34

coming in.

1:13:341:13:35

Join me again, next Sunday

at 11, here on BBC One.

1:13:351:13:37

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:371:13:40

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