Browse content similar to 10/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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In the Midlands, new figures for the Sunday Politics reveal many | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
patients go I it of their way to avoid Stafford Hospital. | :01:27. | :01:36. | |
:01:37. | :01:37. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2455 seconds | :01:37. | :42:32. | |
With the nurses of the future go Hello again from the Midlands. I'm | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
Patrick Burns. And both our guests today ran their own companies | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
before emerging as influential figures in their respective parties. | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
Margot James is the Conservative MP for Stourbridge, and a | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
Parliamentary Private Secretary at the Business Department. Lorely | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
Burt is the Liberal Democrat MP for Solihull, and she chairs her party | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
in Parliament. Welcome to you both. And of course, as former | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
businesswomen, Margot and Lorely will need no reminder that the | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
catastrophe at Stafford Hospital was fundamentally a failure of | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
management. Ever since the sheer scale began to emerge of what | :43:04. | :43:11. | |
happened there over four years from 2005, the hospital has struggled. | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
Now, figures obtained exclusively for the Sunday Politics reveal just | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
how sharply public confidence in the hospital's services has fallen | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
away. In the five years since 2007, the number of people opting for | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
treatment at Stafford through the NHS Choose and Book system has | :43:26. | :43:36. | |
:43:36. | :43:37. | ||
plummeted by 67%, from almost 16,000, to just 6,500. The sharpest | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
falls came after 2009, when the Healthcare Commission's report was | :43:40. | :43:47. | |
published, revealing "appalling" standards of care. Well, Stafford's | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
Chief Executive says it's suffered the equivalent of a �3.7 million | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
drop in income every year since then. Even if we hadn't had the | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
reputational issues around Mid Staffs and the poor failings of | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
care, I think a small district hospital like ours, with a | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
relatively small income every year of �150 million, will find that | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
increasingly difficult to sustain independently without working with | :44:05. | :44:15. | |
:44:15. | :44:18. | ||
others. Margot, you of course managed part of a major global | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
healthcare business before entering Parliament, so in a way you feel | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
for the management there in Stafford, but equally it's | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
understandable, given what we've seen and heard over the last few | :44:25. | :44:35. | |
:44:35. | :44:36. | ||
years, should decide to give it a miss and look elsewhere. Well, I'm | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
surprised that even 6,500 people are willing to choose it, given the | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
reputational damage that the Chief Executive referred to. But I think | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
it's the wider implications for the NHS that are of most concern. There | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
are four hospitals with way above average mortality rates that are | :44:51. | :44:59. | |
being investigated at the moment, and I fear that there will be more. | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
And it's important to point out that at Stafford, their mortality | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
rates have improved a lot, the performance of the hospital is | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
actually improving. But they are saddled with the equivalent of �3.7 | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
million every year, Lorely, and as a former businessman, you know you | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
can't really cope with a weight like that when you're trying to get | :45:14. | :45:22. | |
the numbers up, can you? No, it's really difficult. And I think that | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
confidence will be restored eventually. If you speak to people | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
in the street and they have been to hospital, 9.5 times out of 10 they | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
will say they have had excellent and caring service. We need to keep | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
that in context when we are talking about the NHS generally. Margot, I | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
saw you shaking your head. Well, I take a slightly different view, | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
because we've got to take a realistic view. Yes, is excellent | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
care in the NHS. But I think too often when we get a crisis like | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
this, people rush to say the vast majority is absolutely excellent. | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
That is I'm afraid not true. I'm afraid there's too many pockets of | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
bad care. And every time there is a report, and they come with alarming | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
frequency, showing especially for older people in hospital poor | :46:09. | :46:19. | |
:46:19. | :46:19. | ||
standards of basic nursing care. in a nutshell what would you do I | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
you were one of the managers there, as a former businessperson yourself, | :46:22. | :46:32. | |
:46:32. | :46:33. | ||
how would you turn it around as a business, Lorely? I think it is the | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
culture. We need to make people feel relaxed about reporting | :46:37. | :46:46. | |
incidences of bad practice. And not to allow anybody to have that | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
responsibility 0.21 side, to look after people properly. -- put to | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
one side. When I spoke to Robert Francis QC | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
shortly after he'd delivered his report, he told me he'd been | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
personally distressed by the evidence he'd had to hear. He said | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
it wasn't his job to reset the moral compass of the NHS, but he | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
knew his recommendations were bound to be used as pointers towards new | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
ways of stopping this ever happening again. | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
It traumatised the communities it was meant to serve, and scandalised | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
the country as a whole. How could this most caring of the caring | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
services abandon patient care? For the Prime Minister himself to front | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
up for the Government, registered the gravity of the Francis Report, | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
placing it alongside the Bloody Sunday and Hillsborough inquiries. | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
Now, as then, the Prime Minister was "truly sorry". And the report's | :47:31. | :47:39. | |
author was determined lessons must be learnt. This is not a problem | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
that will be solved by a simplistic solution of finding a scapegoat and | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
sacking them. We need to change the culture in the system, and until we | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
do that, you can sack as many people as we like, it will not make | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
a difference. The number of people choosing Stafford Hospital has | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
plummeted. Do you find that understandable? It is | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
understandable and distressing. It shows the power of information, and | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
amongst my recommendations, some of them are designed to improve the | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
information available to the public so that there is a balanced picture. | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
So that trusts admit their failures, and what they are going to be going | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
about them. So, the questions for MPs joining | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
me on Westminster's famous green. Will this report start the business | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
of restoring confidence? I think it will, because the central tenet of | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
it is it will put patients right at the heart of the NHS. Absolutely, | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
because what this report talks about is zero harm, and that's | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
absolutely key. Zero harm for patients, putting patients first, | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
with the quality of care there. These hospital inspectors will be | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
vital I think, and will give people confidence in the future, but | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
there's a great deal more to be done. | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
The hospital itself has wounds to bind. Its emergency department has | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
been closed overnight for 15 months. Local support groups say it is | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
putting its house in order, but the hospital continues to survive, only | :49:04. | :49:14. | |
:49:14. | :49:15. | ||
with government handouts. What exactly will it take to | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
restore trust in Stafford and the NHS as a whole? That is the subject | :49:21. | :49:29. | |
of my latest block. Joining me here is Dame Julie Moore, | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
the chief executive of University Hospitals Birmingham. You are one | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
of the people Robert Francis talked to. I am sure many people at Hulme | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
are astonished that health professionals who have a recommend | :49:45. | :49:52. | |
-- reputation for dedication, lost sign of the patient. I cannot | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
account for how things went terribly wrong at Stafford, but we | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
have a terrible problem at the moment. Who would want to have a | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
career in health care management at the moment? There responsibility | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
for the culture of the Organisation his mind and the board's, and I | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
would be proud for everybody in that my family to be treated at a | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
hospital. Because I am not proud of the work our doctors and nurses do, | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
and I do not want them to be tarred with the reputation but it is | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
coming across the hall of the NHS. But we have too many organisations, | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
too many bodies telling us what to do. What would you do it to the | :50:39. | :50:45. | |
cure the NHS campaigners, who feel that heads must roll some work, | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
whereas people have been promoted? One of the things the report | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
pointed out was how many organisations have been involved. | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
Who is accountable for the things that went on? By think there are | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
too many organisations and responsible bodies at the moment, | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
and if we had an inspector on top of the other bodies that will not | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
help the problem. I welcome an inspector if we will do so some of | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
the many bodies inspecting a hospital. One more it will not make | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
a difference. There is also the idea that managers who are | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
responsible for failures in patient care but no fundamental standards | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
can be sacked themselves. It is that a useful stick for the | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
Government to bring to bear? have sacked doctors, nurses, people | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
who do not come up to standard, I think we often have a belief it is | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
difficult to sack a doctor. You hear of people being suspended for | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
years and years, and that is wrong. We have had a thing in the NHS | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
called for no blame culture, and that meant you could not hold | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
people to account. In the trust we have a policy of Fair | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
accountability, and we expect people to act as professionals and | :52:08. | :52:15. | |
if they did not, we hold them to account. People have seen some of | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
these health executives being promoted. You can understand surely | :52:20. | :52:27. | |
why the campaigners want heads to roll? Yes, I think the failings | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
were so serious that certainly be chief executive and the board of | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
Stafford Hospital should have gone, and why were no nurses and doctors | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
struck off? I think that they cure the NHS campaign have serious | :52:44. | :52:51. | |
questions that need answering. have to agree with Margot. I am | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
interested in some of the changes being proposed, such as the duty of | :52:56. | :53:05. | |
candour. You will be required to report something, not just see it. | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
Doesn't it implied a right to fail as well, if you are being | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
absolutely candid? Better to reports something that is failing | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
it and sort that out, but not to report it at all? Very often with | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
failing hospitals, there is another one I know well in Northamptonshire | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
which was given over to the private sector in the end. That was a case | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
of a very senior doctor running a department who was not operating | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
well. And too many things going wrong. People below him were | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
frightened to report him. I think if we have this duty of candour | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
written into law, people will have a legal duty to report him, and | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
they will be big day and abetting a cover-up if they do not. | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
It will be difficult to be as open about your failings as your | :54:01. | :54:08. | |
successes. It is a difficult thing to do. We have had such a policy at | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
the Trust for a long time, but it is very difficult to own up to | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
mistakes. The current set-up does not make that easier. The | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
Litigation Authority advises you not to do it. One of our mottos is | :54:22. | :54:28. | |
do the right thing. For the moment, thank you very much | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
indeed. David Cameron told MPs Stafford had | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
revealed "completely inadequate standards of nursing". He pledged | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
"consistent training" and better support. But with Stafford's | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
medical reputation so badly damaged, how can it attract the brightest | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
and best as its carers in the future? BBC Stoke's Political | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
Reporter Phil McCann asks if trainees at one of the top-rated | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
nursing courses in the country, at Worcester University 60 miles south, | :54:47. | :54:57. | |
:54:57. | :54:59. | ||
would be prepared to help turn Stafford around. | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
This is a story of a poorly and unnecessary suffering of hundreds | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
of people. It was a sobering moment for these | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
trainee nurses. Another reminder of the failings at Stafford, a | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
"disease" that had caused the entire system to fail. And it was | :55:11. | :55:20. | |
difficult to believe just how bad things had got. | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
I understand the demands placed on nurses and health care staff, but | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
still, to that extent is really shocking. And the fact that it has | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
not been dealt with much sooner. But with 290 recommendations | :55:33. | :55:41. | |
contained in the Francis Report, what did they make of the "cure"? | :55:41. | :55:47. | |
am hoping that maybe the Government to make rethink about its idea of | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
reform within the NHS with regards to budgeting and trying to save a | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
pound here and apparent there. And put more resources into the NHS. | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
Their course leader welcomed most of his findings, but was concerned | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
about one of the proposed changes - an obligation to tell patients when | :56:02. | :56:12. | |
things go wrong. We want to have an open discussion with patients, but | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
we do not want to instigate a culture of blame. That is what | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
Francis is trying to get away from. It was budget cuts that helped | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
precipitate the crisis here at Stafford Hospital. The challenge of | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
the Francis Report is how to prevent problems happening again | :56:26. | :56:36. | |
:56:36. | :56:40. | ||
anywhere in the NHS when budgets remain very tight. We have looked | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
at a catheter bag. Back in Worcester, having heard the | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
horror stories from Stafford, just how willing would these trainees be | :56:46. | :56:54. | |
to work there themselves? The only way I would be able to take on a | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
brawl at a place like fat is if I knew I was being supported. Be a | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
does put you off a bit. Nurses that are confident in whistle-blowing | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
and making sure that higher standards of care are happening all | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
the time should be working at places like mid Stafford, to give | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
the population at the confidence that this is no longer | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
Signs of compassion already? A willingness from the next | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
generation to get the weakest parts of the NHS back to full health - | :57:25. | :57:34. | |
while ensuring the scars left by Stafford are never forgotten. | :57:34. | :57:41. | |
It does put you off a bit, said one of those trainees, when asked about | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
the prospect of working in it nursing in Stafford. You can | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
understand why they are struggling to get overnight accident and | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
emergency going again, for example. I understand that those trainees | :57:55. | :58:01. | |
were actually, their level of compassion was actually part of the | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
selection process. I think that is a good start. If they have a | :58:06. | :58:11. | |
culture to go into, which is supportive of them and gives them | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
the time and the ability and the support to do a good job, to be | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
caring, to do all of those nursing things that nurses were always | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
renowned for, they have got a place to go. Are you saying that is a | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
change from the culture we have had for the last few years. Yes, and I | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
think this is the kind of stories that you hear. But there is still a | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
great deal of compassion I think in the NHS, it just needs to be built | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
up a little bit more into the culture. The the other thing that | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
came across very strongly was their concern about one shake-up on top | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
of another. Isn't it merely compounding the difficulties for | :58:56. | :59:01. | |
hospitals but of the be very seriously challenged, to be | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
inflicting I think it is �20 billion of savings within ring- | :59:05. | :59:11. | |
fenced budgets? The savings are designed to try to get better care | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
in the end. The overall budget for the NHS is ever so slightly | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
increasing, so we are trying to get savings in order to get care where | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
it is needed. We have not talk about social care, but it is really | :59:26. | :59:31. | |
needed out in the community. There are too many older people in | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
hospital who should not be there. Many should have never been | :59:35. | :59:41. | |
admitted, and many who were there are already fit 40 -- discharge in | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
many cases. They are not being discharged because the support in | :59:45. | :59:52. | |
the community is not fair for them. And that is tying up hospital beds | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
which are very much needed. The NHS was designed to deliver a different | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
model of care to today. But I trained as a nurse, there has | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
always been a high degree of compassion and caring in nurses. I | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
can take you to be places where you would find really high quality | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
compassionate care. Are unconcerned we are going to try and of a | :00:18. | :00:26. | |
regulate and overburden it. The idea we will be given a performance | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
related pay regime fig -- fills me with horror. Nurses enter it | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
because it is a vocation, not to earn millions of pounds. We have | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
seen a failure of local scrutiny in Stafford, and the Government's | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
health watch vision for scrutiny of local hospitals, do you think that | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
might build up further defences against a repeat of what we have | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
seen here? It has to involve patients that have used the service, | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
but also doctors and nurses and all kinds of people who are in current | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
practice. We have had very hub for inspections, but equally some by | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
that -- people who have not been in practice for years. The credibility | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
of these reports are not as helpful. So what is the model that would | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
:01:30. | :01:30. | ||
work? I think the CQC has been been proved, and that has been tusk with | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
better inspections, and also inspections of the weekends. Last | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
year I found that all of their inspections took place during the | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
working week. We know that mortality rates in hospital | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
increased at the weekend, and that is where we want inspections. Also, | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
the leadership of the CQC has also been changed, which I called for | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
last year. Because interestingly, the woman who was the chief | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
executive of the CQC was also on the West Midlands strategic health | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
authority when the mid- Staffordshire Health crisis was at | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
its peak. David Cameron said the voice of the patient must now bring | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
out. Can it? I think it can. There are a lot of hospitals, indeed my | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
own hospital in Solihull, is working hard on good culture change, | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
and I think it is working in Solihull, it can work throughout | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
the NHS. "What of the rest of the political | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
news?" I hear you ask. BBC Coventry and Warwickshire's Political | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
Reporter, Sian Grzeszczyk, has this week's round-up, in 60 Seconds. | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
Back from the brink - Birmingham City Council's announced it won't | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
be putting up council tax bills as planned this year, for fear of | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
being penalised by the Government. Midlands farmers are also | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
potentially facing financial ruin, as they begin losing livestock to | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
the Schmallenberg virus. One sheep and cattle farmer in Herefordshire | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
says there needs to be a vaccine. Personally we've lost about 20% of | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
our herd. And on a cost figure, I guess it's cost us 20 grand the | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
last 12 months. Plebgate returned to the news this | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
week, after the Sutton Coldfield MP Andrew Mitchell gave a TV interview | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
attacking Number 10 for not doing enough to help him clear his name. | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
While Coventry's MPs attended a meeting to try to save 400 jobs at | :03:26. | :03:33. | |
Rolls-Royce in Ansty. Unions fear defence cuts will mean redundancies. | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
But, the Malaysian firm Genting was promising a jobs jackpot - 1,100 | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
new posts. It's started work on a giant casino complex at the LG | :03:42. | :03:50. | |
arena in Birmingham. And I can tell you that Lorely Burt | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
was at the turf-cutting for that casnio. Digging in! Well, 1,100 | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
jobs, thank you very much. Are we becoming a nation of gamblers, | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
Lorely? Well, I don't think that's quite right. I don't ever gamble | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
myself. So you're not going to be rolling the dice or spinning the | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
roulette wheel? No, but it has to be remembered that only 11% of that | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
whole big development is actually casino. It means a lot of jobs. It | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
also means creating a destination for the West Midlands, a great | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
place for people to not only come and visit the NEC, but come and | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
stay. Aren't you jealous, really, no Sunset Strip for Stourbridge? | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
I'm not, actually! I love the jobs angle, but I think we've got enough | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
gambling, really. But I'd be doing what Lorely was doing if it was in | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
my area obviously, because it is jobs in the region. And do we not | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
look too closely at the colour of the money, and not worry too much | :04:47. | :04:57. | |
about the effects of gambling addiction and so on? I am concerned | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
about gambling addiction. The online world is the big worry. | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
Particularly among women. The debt burden that it creates. | :05:08. | :05:14. |