29/06/2014 Sunday Politics West Midlands

No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.

But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?

Doctors want to ban smoking outright.

A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all

Take in the Midlands, a top author tells us why he is throwing the book

as politicians over library closures.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in

Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence

He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made

it big in the world of European politic.

I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg

He'll soon be President of the European Commission,

He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.

But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up

on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.

-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist

So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes

of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?

Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington

Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr

Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got

harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The

majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts

power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right

cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European

Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European

countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of

Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on

how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the

mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming

European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The

Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to

integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.

What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at

different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new

Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the

approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime

Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general

acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to

the single currency will want to press forward with closer

integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country

in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern

that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with

28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the

extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and

integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable

geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is

that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the

slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which

backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that

there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to

seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the

election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the

British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the

British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will

take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron

secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,

not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with

Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't

think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of

reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do

put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission

to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers

around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things

cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger

of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of

work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of

countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election

results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing

parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing

real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch

decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the

condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would

have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.

Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role

in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed

up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from

that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I

think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and

it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament

to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.

They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are

the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms

of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The

current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The

Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?

We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at

the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on

whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you

think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but

also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't

challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.

Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of

State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the

existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He

doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is

the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the

position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a

distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government

now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and

the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that

important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and

that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a

whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going

to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in

2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For

one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press

ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done

in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain

outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of

migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this

week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will

you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the

government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the

election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg

speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,

more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is

all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's

not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in

the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries

those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories

and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,

will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and

perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank

you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there

is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring

back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I

think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,

those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay

regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on

renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would

vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20

years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only

stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be

re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the

referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single

biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not

what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure

to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against

Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr

Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only

because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these

changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that

would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the

biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of

coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of

benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of

movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is

a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is

also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was

encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not

say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted

in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The

fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when

he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling

to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela

Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the

European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,

he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this

basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was

presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there

was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I

understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.

I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that

he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his

backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They

don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to

draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that

sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to

Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people

will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on

Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for

immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who

John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is

replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by

arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by

staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would

leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common

foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims

which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change

anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of

these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants

to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the

chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,

doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big

things to get through first in domestic politics before we even

reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom

this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,

are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to

be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they

going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the

sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK

stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David

Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a

danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes

correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press

comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold

Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to

say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is

different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it

cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government

to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land

will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on

the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European

Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the

line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting

dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will

not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.

If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is

working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority

of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see

there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined

ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had

about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it

is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a

referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious

consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking

about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people

to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his

party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a

whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything

we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future

integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are

upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being

passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are

prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in

charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into

which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence

Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib

Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what

the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the

choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political

leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we

went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the

individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I

mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his

views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a

small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of

America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is

really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we

closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the

idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers

back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly

been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that

has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are

we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship

with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or

another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on

and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can

remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the

referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it

sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is

a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we

will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to

ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I

thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the

Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional

implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to

established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we

mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the

institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by

federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate

but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains

national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it

makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the

Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU

wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you

liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to

you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be

disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only

had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,

France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of

menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the

North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an

army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms

of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you

can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having

the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the

United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,

Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is

an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want

to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a

referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he

was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and

restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw

everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born

after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those

plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British

was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men

smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a

political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in

those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,

more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that

thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in

enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately

we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think

it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has

improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.

Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on

those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the

introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride

in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.

We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson

from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban

on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark

They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are

bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in

our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as

children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start

smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for

you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we

totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make

that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol

eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is

totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes

which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping

children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops

shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so

you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a

36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you

will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the

younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily

addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this

becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you

would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have

no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if

we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2

years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't

have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their

20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes

the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting

cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get

better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is

going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.

Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see

adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is

for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop

young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they

never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds

who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government

increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to

18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,

we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal

says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a

motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There

is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they

doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not

about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and

they have to get their act together because they are bringing the

medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about

things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,

but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes

altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s

not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to

smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would

be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So

even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,

just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the

habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so

that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so

important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One

thing you will find is that throughout the world people is

looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and

different countries like Australia, they were the first with a

standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all

of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the

tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with

cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going

head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal

representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "

So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?

Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,

but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what

parliament might look like after the next year's general election.

Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to

Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of

Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010

more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but

not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.

Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female

MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and

the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have

selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and

to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been

trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts

and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the

all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the

whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long

way to go on the issue of being representative. So we

way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack

of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.

In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they

got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%

The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy

at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most

marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn

In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected

If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones

they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.

The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won

at the last election, if they manage that, they would have

However all the indications are it could be

a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform

swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.

One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all

options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is

The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at

evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life

experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.

They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be

represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary

projection for gender, According to the last census

in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from

black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they

get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party

were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME

candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,

that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats

don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling

on to their current number of seats they would have two,

giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost

their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix

of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve

the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to

a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford

or Cambridge. Only a fifth

of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with

the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like

us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they

cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the

turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20

points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and

that is getting worse with single election.

And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a

Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get

It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

Patrick Burns. Both our guests today have experienced the joys of

government and the agonies of opposition. Or is it the other way

around? Caroline Spellman, Conservative MP for Merrington.

David Wright, Labour MP for Telford. He graduated through the prhvate

offices of some of the grandest figures in his party for becoming a

government whip. Among David Miliband. Welcome to you both.

Another week in which the Mhdlands descended on Westminster mob handed.

The third of these so`called Birmingham days, high `` pioneered

by Gisela Stuart. Concentrated on the city's fast`growing cre`tive

sector. That means industrids like television, graphics and colputer

games. It's also about cementing the wider region's position on the map

of the global economy. This came just two days after George Osborne

had set out his vision of an even bigger super city in the north,

stretching from Merseyside to Humberside, creating a trans`Pennine

high`speed railway. David, `re we saying that what is good for

Birmingham is good for Telford, in the way that what is good for

Manchester is good for Leeds? It seems our region is missing out on

this talk of super cities. We have to back Birmingham `s MPs

right across the region. We need to have distinct strategies for our own

towns that promote economic development and activity. Wd have to

understand that it's Birmingham does well the whole region does. We need

to work together as MPs across the Midlands.

Caroline, would you say the same Samaritan? Last time we spoke he

majored in Solihull. Everyone gets behind Manchester, but in this part

of the world it is really about West Bromwich, Solihull.

I think David is right that we need to fight together as a group of MPs

to withstand pressure from Manchester. But we shouldn't

overlook that `` the fact that 0% of investment into the Midl`nds is

insult `` is in Solihull. That's why it chose to be part of a local

economic partnership with Birmingham.

Do you think this is going to spin off into something tangible, that

the world will recognise a region that can be a powerhouse?

I certainly hope so. I do rdgret the demise of the regional development

agencies, but the new maps have to work much more closely together to

get a comprehensive approach to investment.

Can a. What used to be the role of the enterprise... ?

Yes and I think it is shellhng out that the West Midlands export more

to the EU only imports. Thank you. Still to come, the

bestselling children's author Jacqueline Wilson explains why she

is opposing library closures. I feel that when these libr`ries go,

they will not ever be replaced. I think it is such a thing.

We will talk about that latdr, reporting from Staffordshird and

Warwickshire. Death by 1000 cuts, whoever came up

with that could have had in mind these slow torture of these

Staffordshire Regiment. For all their proud history, the St`ffords

were reinvented as the 3rd Battalion The Mercian Regiment. Tomorrow they

are to be disbanded altogether, part of the restructuring of the army. We

saw an emotional leg of thehr fellow world tour.

`` farewell tour. Marching through the streets of staffers werd the

final time. The 3rd Battalion the margin `` de Mercian Regiment,

formerly the Staffords. Other mac you have to adapt and move

on and that is what we are doing. The regiment is being merged with

the Mercian 's first and second battalions, as part of a 20$

reduction in regular army ntmbers. By 2020, the number of regular

troops is in cuts from 102,002 82,000. The number of reservists

rises to 30,000. The changes have been controversial and provoked a

dire warning from a former Labour defence minister.

Finding more money for defence is just a matter of government resolve.

Without an increase in defence spending, I believe we are on the

road to disaster. The government position is that it

is only possible to build a sustainable defence on a sustainable

economy. We are filling a huge black hole in

the defence budget last by the last government. That did requird some

entrenchments. Government h`s done out and we are now able to look

forward to a military which can pay its way.

The first regiments, bearing the Staffords name, can trace its name

back more than 300 years. Now they are marching into the pages of

history. The Ministry of defence pointed out

that the UK still has the bhggest defence budget in Europe and the

second`biggest in NATO. A s`y Army restructuring will make it lore

flexible and better able to meet future threats. There is a political

irony here, isn't there? Thd former defence minister Lord West warrant a

Tory government that the old policies are a road to disaster

I would point out that equipment is also part of the equation. The

government has made a decishon to build two new aircraft carrhers

which presumably Admiral West would well come. It is a balance of troops

and equipment. Dealing with a deficit of ?38 million, which we

inherited on taking office hn 2 10. Act is a very big figurativd cut the

army. It certainly smaller. Also strategically making greater

use of Army Reserve Unit. A lot of people who leave the servicds do

continue as reservists. The terms and conditions for reservists have

been significantly improved to encourage service men and women to

consider that route. David, you take an interest in

defence. Do you feel the pahn of the former Staffords?

I do. Over the last 20 years, we have seen a lot of local regiment

disappear. Under this garment and the last. I think it's important

that people have an identitx and connection with the regiments. I am

working on a fundraiser for a memorial at the National Arboretum.

He disappeared in 1968. This isn't a recent phenomenon on. I wish we

could do more to connect colmunities to the forces. On Caroline's point

about capacity, this throws up some serious strategic challenges. We

have to make decisions about the type of conflict we get involved in

and the role we play. Is your party colleague Lord `` Lord

West on the road to disaster, what did he mean?

I think he is saying that wd cannot cut much deeper. We have to think

about how we play our role hn the world. I voted against the war in

Iraq. I think there would bd real challenges now if we were t`ke on

that kind of conflicts. We need to plan what kind of interventhon we

are willing to take. We havd to form alliances. We have a positive

alliance forming with the French. Are you saying the army is too big?

I think this strategic view, that the Americans have said to France,

we expect you to work together. We saw with the fighting in Mali that

it was actually our air force that slew the troops to value to deal

with that situation. That would be performed at modern takes.

So much of the international situation is particularly

unpredictable. This may explain why people feel exposed when we talk

about cutting the defence btdget. It is unpredictable as hard to know

understand that army is famhly and understand that army is famhly and

allegiance to regiments, let's not overlook the fact that an Army

centre will remain in Stafford. We will have to focus on and

understand that we may have to play a different role, alongside allies

like the French. Thank you both. We are squedzed

financially like never before. Local authorities may initially h`ve the

libraries as relatively soft targets, as Gloucestershire had

there might be closure ruled unlawful in the high courts. Some of

our best`known authors have been sharpening their hands in a campaign

launched in Birmingham against councils abandoning their local

libraries. We were in Stoke. It must be the Midlands, `` the

Midlands's noisiest library. The County Council pulled out of this

one and 11 others two years ago Volunteers turned part of it into a

dance school. It is now the model for libraries in villages across

Staffordshire, like here in Loggerheads. The County Council is

pulling out of running eight and 23 other branches. It is hoping to save

?1.23 million. We are doing this because wd don't

want our libraries to close. It is a three`year programme giving us

plenty of time to work towards achieving our library.

If we had to take over the running of the library I am sure we would

find volunteers will stop whether we would be able to open every day of

the week and for the whole day we do not know.

There is scepticism of the council's confidence in othdr parts

of Staffordshire. The library here was only rebuilt four years ago

I am not at all confidence that the libraries will not close. How they

will achieve the running of the service on a voluntary basis, will

libraries `` with libraries like this one. If they cannot get enough

volunteers to run it, how whll they keep it open?

Something Staffordshire might have good reason to worry. This library

was one of two that closed when the council pulled out two years ago.

Locals could not get the cash together to keep it open. It is now

a nursery. On a visit to commentary, J`cqueline

Wilson is that this kind of closure needs to be avoided.

I understand the council's position. You have the elderly, sick, so many

people desperate for money. I do seriously feel that librarids are so

important. Even here, held up as a success

story, things are getting dhfficult. In three years, the council will

charge us a market rent and we have no idea what that would be. That

could be really crippling to us It is clear that when counchls pull

out of places like this, thdy cannot wash their hands of them colpletely.

The children's author and ldader of the campaign for the books, Alan

Gibbons, came into our studho. I asked him if his prime targdt was

the local authorities or thd government.

It is both. Is the climate of austerity which we can argud about,

and I think it is the biggest con ever run on the British public.

Mostly it about leadership. For many years, the library committed in

Parliament has said that le`dership has been woeful. When there is no

leadership from the top, cotncils can be incredibly uneven in how they

implement cut. Brighton is ` very good situation at the moment, where

they are building new libraries Places like Staffordshire,

Sheffield, Liverpool, Gloucestershire. He has takdn a very

different path with voluntedr libraries or closures.

Staffordshire said is no re`son why libraries county will close. They

are confident that volunteers comment. If you look at somdone like

Warwickshire, where the county authority has moved out of 02 branch

libraries, ten of them are still open with volunteers.

There are number of things to say. You do not get the same service from

volunteers. We welcome them but they should be supplementing professional

librarians, not replacing them. In France, they are saying that no

librarians are replaced by volunteers. They are only

supplemented. A couple of lhbraries have closed in Warwickshire, my

understanding. It is likely that in areas without retired

professionals, like Knowslex where I taught for many years, we whll get a

postcode lottery of librarids. The more socially deprived areas will

not have those people to run the libraries. The places that `re

better off we'll get literates, a literacy advantage.

Are you saying that librarids should in some way be in Munich to the sort

of financial challenges that the rest of the public services are

facing? `` immune to. Not at all. I oppose the austerity

agenda full top. If we do things like sharing services, if wd have

fewer smaller library authorities, which have very few librarids

indeed, we can make a difference. If there is a strategic plan, `nd there

is no strategic plan, and there is no strategic planning New Zdaland's.

They have one in Ireland, in Japan. There are 3% more libraries this

year and 11% more library and in South Korea. There are 118 new

libraries there. There is no reason why the seventh richest country in

the world should be cutting 10% of our librarians, roughly 10% of

permanent libraries, and handing them over to an uncertain ftture

with involuntary libraries. There is no strategic leadership. Thd

librarians body still at cast a vote of no`confidence in Ed Vaizdy, the

Culture Minister. He has bedn utterly incompetent, giving no

leadership. He doesn't have a plan. Only six months ago, the Ch`rtered

Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy ordered that thd rate at

which local libraries are closing has been falling year`on`ye`r by a

factor of three. They celebrated what they called the imagin`tive,

creative thinking that has been brought to bear in keeping them

open. Dancing classes have ` much wider role in the community.

It shouldn't be left to those volunteers to put a sticking plaster

on the situation. I admire them but they should not have to do ht. In

Barnet, they are fighting a fantastic battle to keep a volunteer

library open, but they would much prefer to have a council run

library. It cost less than ?1 billion. Is literacy that low on the

public agenda? Alan Gibbons, certainly not mincing

his words. He feels that thd present government does not have a libraries

plan. I think we should have a libraries

plan, but I also take a view that it is for local communities to decide

where they spend the money `nd whether they invest in libr`ry

services. I think you can do that. In Telford, we have shown that you

can't do that in the current climates. We are opening a new

library as part `` as part of the Southwater developments. We are

working with other organisations, M Parish councils. In Telford Centre,

in Dolly and Stirchley, we `re seeing library provision.

There is a real concern abott finding literary standards. It

cannot be right to pull out of local libraries.

I think you have picked the wrong two MPs because our local

authorities have actually opens new libraries. I think what is

interesting, I take issue whth Allen who said that there would bd a

postcode lottery. Actually, in my more deprived wards we are seeing

that co`locating the librarx with, for example, the Citizens Advice

Bureau, or with Age UK, has actually increased the number of vishts to

the library, encouraging people to take advantage of both servhces

What wasn't mentioned was the decline in book lending, has the

greater availability of dightal books.

It is a big challenge, isn't it The world of communication is changing

so fast. Should we just do things a different way? It is also about Alec

tried means as well as books. You can use that to your advantage.

The library and Stirchley allows you to take back and look and lobbied in

using the computer system. There is no member of staff there. There are

Parish Council members are taking an overview of the library provision,

but technology is helping to keep the library open.

Thinking about the situation in Warwickshire, it scans the right to

threaten them with market rdnts when volunteers are really working

hard. That is a sure way of discouraging the volunteers who have

been helping. That is up to Warwickshire `nd I

don't know the circumstances. In Solihull, this co`locating with

public services makes the lhbrary more viable. Volunteers are being

encouraged to help the local library, and are being allowed to

offer additional opening hotrs, increasing the number of visits

There are definitely ways to give libraries a very bright futtre. We

are here to prove that you do not have to close them.

Alan Gibbons made a good pohnt that trained librarians are one thing,

these reviving `` very valu`ble volunteers are another thing

altogether. Are we saying that maybe the role of the specialist

librarian, that area is abott central libraries like the big one

in Leamington Spa, the libr`ry of Birmingham?

I think it is more difficult in very rural counties, where you h`ve a

situation where there is a large distance to cover. That is puite

difficult in terms of providing a library service. Think you have to

make sure that if you use volunteers, you sustain thel in the

longer term, bring people through the system. Otherwise some

volunteers will have had enough and move on. I am concerned abott the

market rent issue. But it is up to local councils to make thesd

decisions. Thank you very much. Now, otr

round`up of the political developments making news here.

Thousands have signed a poshtion `` petition to save this swimmhng pool

in Coventry. The council saxs it is losing ?2000 a day and wants to

replace it with a pool have to size. That land can act was launched with

the aim of driving increased economic growth by providing better

transport links. The council has given the freedom of

the borough to Slade front lan Noddy Holder.

It's not even Christmas! Hereford United football fans marched on

Herefordshire Council, and `bout the demise of their club amid continuing

financial uncertainty. Leaders join forces with yotng man

in Birmingham, who feared that young man will join the group Isis.

We can't stop them from going. Isn't the really worrying thing

about this that we have no hdea really how many men from thd West

Midlands are out there in the Middle East, let alone how many might come

back? It is very tricky. Sometimes they

take a route which is not dhrectly to the Middle East, so therd is no

way of knowing whether someone who is going on holiday is going to end

up there. The main thing is to focus our efforts in the areas whdre these

young men are unlikely to bd radicalised. We have seen dhstraught

parents who cannot understand how they're perfectly well adjusted son

has suddenly appears in a vhdeo encouraging others to take tp arms.

We need to focus our efforts on where the radicalisation is

occurring. David, what can be done in `reas

where there are several really big controversial issues running at the

same time, to make sure we get a grip of this problem?

We need to work together as a multi`faith community and stand

together. The government nedds to decide what it is going to do with

young people when they come back, if they have been in a war zond. We

need a process to understand whether and why they have been in conflict.

I think getting rid of the control of the regime has left us open to

threat. We need to think about what our strategy will be when these

people return. Do we need extra surveillance? We

have heard about and alleges surveillance state, the rold of

GCHQ? We need to help the families of the

returnees. That's true and I think we need to

intervene before people go. Thank you both.

Thank you to Caroline Spelllan is David Wright. Finally, it rdpresents

more than 300 councils across England in all shapes and shzes

That makes it one Briton's lost powerful representative bodhes. From

next week, the local governlent Association will have a new

chairman. Councillor David Sparks, better known here as the Labour

leader of Dudley Council. I will talk to him about the challdnges

facing him as he prepares for that important new role in next

been problems elsewhere in Europe, but I take your point. Thanks to

both of you today. Back to you, Andrew.

Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks

about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come

from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas.

In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that,

"instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus

groups and our press strategies and our desire for a topline in terms of

the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any

He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a

The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls was asked about what Mr Cruddas had

I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is

excited about his policy agenda He is frustrated that one report of 250

pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in

the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution

long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new

investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really

on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so

let's call it an unforced error You go to the party speeches, and you

don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as

serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks

about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled

out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite

saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative.

When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult

for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He

was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being

criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is

particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician

of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David

Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is

wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I

would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised

immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical

and innovative on its own terms I don't think any member of the public

does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If

anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a

Labour government could do and nervous about the economic

reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the

notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in

night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas,

because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus

of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's

interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour

Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British

people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander

offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices

and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has

real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is

John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy

review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the

policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the

problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong

opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they

maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have

in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise

after his former director of communications was convicted

of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend,

Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared

of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for

employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was

given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case.

I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full

and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I

employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When

I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy,

politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was

not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a

great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another

person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an

unrelated issue. And he was 26- on the wrong end in Brussels, and there

is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts

Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings

criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr

Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when

one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been

the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the

other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be

the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised

questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political

damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was

sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the

date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago - it

was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the

general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am

sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in

recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that

Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a

slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears

the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with

Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be

lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when

there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the

News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made

a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out

she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding

what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her

party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said

that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one

person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the

SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime

Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He s

very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed

Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that

is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week

the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in the

polls than he has had some time so he must be wondering why they are

having a go at him. He made a tactical error in Prime Minister's

Questions by asking all the questions about Andy Coulson. The

one at the end about what Gus O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in

the extreme. Politicians can be out of touch on all sides of the house.

The problem is, and there is a great quote by William Hague, is that the

Tory party has two modes, panic and complacency. At the moment they are

complacent. They think Ed Miliband will lose Labour election but I

don't know if they have a positive plan about how to win it. -- lose

Labour the election. Now, we knew Prince Charles had

trouble keeping his views about the environment

and the countryside to himself, but that's not the only thing he's

passionate about according to a radio four documentary to be

broadcast this lunchtime. Here's former Education Secretary,

David Blunkett on how the Prince had once attempted to influence

his policy on schools. I would explain that our policy was

not to expand grammar schools, and he didn't like that. He was very

keen that we should go back to a different era where youngsters had

what he would've seen as the opportunity to escape from their

background, where as I wanted to change their background.

And you can hear that documentary - it's called The Royal Activist

Does it matter that Prince Charles is getting involved in this kind of

policy, released behind closed doors question mark on the issue of

grammar schools is not clear anybody listened to him. I think it is a

principal problem. I've spoken to form a government members, and

judging by what they say, if anything we underestimate how much

contacting makes with ministers And how many representations he makes on

the issue that interest him. There has been an attempt to keep it

hidden. It's almost a theological question about whether the future

monarch should be involved in the public realm. If he wants to

influence policy, shouldn't we know what policy he's trying to influence

and what position he is taking? Sewer speech is better than private

one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so a speech. Prince Charles's views are

interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes

a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in

the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural

development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which

no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not

convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his

position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously

described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66

and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the

powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the

Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the

problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but

you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses

that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing

is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has

got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win

either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will

be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and

when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy,

stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are

encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama

has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing.

Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering

solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way

with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can

complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can

become a party political issue. He has had some influence on

architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better

than the ones we used to put up The Daily Politics is on BBC 2

at 11:00am We'll be back here

at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics.