06/07/2014 Sunday Politics West Midlands

Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

joins me from Edinburgh. In the Midlands, with property

And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

United States making the allegations lives in the

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I

wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes

through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the

opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then

holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this

inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be

careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.

On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,

firemen and council workers - will go on strike.

Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking

on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.

As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end

Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy

and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.

So why is there still talk of austerity

The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government

And accumulated deficits - the national debt -

The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.

In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned

austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance

Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.

Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5

Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -

meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed

Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -

the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative

We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition

Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I

don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at

all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural

deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and

the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the

lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze

and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had

that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan

on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.

People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in

the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and

pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is

yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this

is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike

isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does

seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They

are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including

those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really

sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax

cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big

corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local

government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women

who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We

have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public

sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.

You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,

many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases

since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food

costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in what way have you protected people

from spending they have to make? Firstly, you read out the average

increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the

top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we

could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax

and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive

impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20

pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have

got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and

we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,

partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really

important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have

stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not

spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase

itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and

guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.

?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?

I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being

able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints

of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The

evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the

Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even

after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they

are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?

That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that

report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are

saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the

public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are

comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the

workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better

off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate

better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry

private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political

strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The

strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is

what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government

workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers

are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of

touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards

depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real

increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we

certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?

2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament...

So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?

Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,

the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their

credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look

forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these

strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking

union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they

think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point

about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public

service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds

wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite

and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One

final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on

this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail

on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's planning a big crackdown on the

unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know

the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this

make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government

on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of

time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be

an independent country?" That's the question the people of

Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed,

the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before

the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win

and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading

the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of

independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what

would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will

get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple

of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a

number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a

half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be

encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a

long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that

is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a

vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of

uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising

devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there

is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more

or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have

powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are

planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying

different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have

slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an

agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute

book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 1998,

people unified around a single proposition so there is history here

and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in

the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland

vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers? I

would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have

something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in

the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not

certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,

and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the

past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt

over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that

walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists

because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete

break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that

wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any

plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,

what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future

of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.

When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with

representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that

affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want

to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local

authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the

uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would

throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic

arguments are dominating people's thinking, the polls show, that is

what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued

membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an

in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued

Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and

conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into

something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we

have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate

which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have

to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union

does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half

years to get into Europe. I don't want that uncertainty or the

disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with

losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about

is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,

and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to

stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the

argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that

over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that

is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our

arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be

made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists

win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no

vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a

world of difference between devolution and further devolution

where you remain part of the UK. There is a world of difference

between that and making a break, where Scotland becomes a foreign

country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those

opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with

pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with

passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon

Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to

take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign

over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for

remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had

warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland

we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from

that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from

saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are

collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand

up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is

perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what

you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know

about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the

leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was

being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to

blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South

of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.

I think it is important in this debate that people from outside

politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on

because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody

should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will

happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are

making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.

I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon,

next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will

be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European

elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a

moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been

asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister

on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the

Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire

results in the local and European elections so what can the party do

to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line

one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local

support? It is a massive problem because those are the building

blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work

done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock

on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has

lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name

Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming

Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge

and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity

at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a

difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position

itself to win back support? Let's go to Chris online free, has the party

got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a

party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a

of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the

next election because if we don't people will vote for the Tories.

Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I

have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good

stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may

think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing

on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.

Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the

doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.

Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There

is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people

who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a

timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We

are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What

are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious

long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of

the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back

decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented

in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue

ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going

to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how

well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we

are going to finish with an old classic now.

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the

programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you

will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and

historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it

mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry

into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything

it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.

delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an

inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,

serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home

Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in

the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are

looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken

place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,

truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,

is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but

there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195

involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree

that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home

Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been

mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate

themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

thorough, well resourced. I can't think of anything more horrendous, I

can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse

still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse

the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at

the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only

way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting

authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about

what other inquiries take place. A number of other inquiries are taking

place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second

guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.

All I would say is that people who have information, who want to

provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in

touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry

into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself

and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is

called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not

called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two

parties who retain different identities, different values, have

different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament

have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency

back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a

precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political

challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. It

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

good reason for that. They didn't win the election. The left say that

somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in, day

out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to

buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from

left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to

fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.

Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it

won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the

referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.

With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u

powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have

said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change.

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

the Week Ahead. First

We need urgent action to tackle this housing shortage. People are being

priced out, those on low incomes but also on Middle England 's.

A precise example of a failing market crying out for the

intervention of a future Labour Government. We have many schemes to

help people buy their own home. This is a volatile market where supply

has fallen back massively. That happened in 2008. The market went

from boom to massive bust, and this Government is rebuilding once again.

1920s. OK. To be continued ` we've set the

scene there, because the big idea behind the Housing Federation's

campaign is that house building here is failing to keep pace with

population growth, while wages are lagging ever further behind housing

costs. The average deposit for anyone hoping to buy here is now

more than ?30,000. And last year only around 9,000 homes were built

here, that's one of the lowest totals in any English region. Our

BBC Shropshire political reporter Joanne Gallacher, has been talking

to some of the people hardest hit when supply and demand go their

separate ways. Lizz Wright can't afford to get on

the property ladder, so after months of renting she's moved her family in

with her mum and dad in Birmingham. It is difficult after living on your

own and obviously having children, but we thought long and hard and

thought a year would fly by. Hopefully we could have got the

deposit. In recent years has prices have

risen by 56% in the West Midlands. Three bedroomed houses in the Kings

Heath area can cost up to a quarter of a quarter of ?1 million. With two

children under three, it has been difficult to say for a deposit.

We saved as much as possible but didn't seem to be getting anywhere.

We were dipping into the savings with birthdays and Christmas is.

Part of the problem is a shortage of new homes. That is something they

are addressing at Telford in Shropshire where the local authority

is keen to expand. The past year saw nearly 900 homes built in the

borough. Building houses gives more

incomplete counsel for its Budget `` income to the council. And I think

it is important for the country, we need growth points that drive the

British economy forward. But getting on the property ladder

is not cheap. The average deposit needed is in `` is around ?35,000,

the average house costs around ?173,000.

Building new homes might seem the simple solution to the problem, but

finding the land to put them on is often difficult and controversial.

One MP whose constituency is next to Telford has objectives ``

objections. I am concerned about the urban

sprawl, and that there may be secret plans for the council to want a

city. If they want city status I think there needs to be a public

consultation. What we don't need is city status through the back door

which means bulldozing over greenfield sites.

For this family, the drive for more affordable homes cannot come soon

enough. with her mum and dad in Birmingham.

Joanne Gallacher there, on what certainly looks, Mark, like a very

vicious vicious circle where you've got a housing crisis which is

driving prices and rentals up, which in turn is making the housing crisis

worse, and people like Lizz there are sort of absolutely stuck.

We do understand people are finding it difficult, so it is a pity that

your film crew were not able to come over to rugby were my constituents

have just bought their very first house using the Government's Help to

Buy scheme. I met them at the weekend, and they could buy with a

5% deposit, which meant only saving ?9,000. Their first home cost

?160,000 on a Brownfield site. But in the first nine months only 17,000

homes were purchased in this way, which is welcome, but it is a drop

in the bucket. 55% of the people who are taking up Help to Buy our

first`time buyers, and we have 108 people in rugby who have benefited.

In Wolverhampton there are 100s to people have benefited. There is a

scheme here which is helping young people to achieve their dream of

getting their own home. It is making a dent on the problem.

Successive governments of difficult political colours have had different

schemes, but help to build `` helped needs to be much `` matched by a

help to build. There is a market where there is problems with land

supply but also dominance of the big house`builders. We have urged the

Government to make sure that the smaller house`builders are helped by

into the market. We have encouraged a guarantee that for small builders

`` because we are seeing a shortage in supply. Very small numbers being

built. 450,000 new homes were built in the past four years. If you talk

to builders right now they are operating flat out. There are

shortages of material because in 2008 many production companies came

into difficulties. One of the things we have done is modified applying ``

planning system so that it is incumbent on local authorities ``

communities can determine where development takes places. `` takes

place. Your constituency is not 1 million

miles from Telford. How would you feel about enlarging Telford? Tough

it is a very successful new town which was started some decades ago.

`` Telford. They have continued to build new homes for people but keep

green spaces in between those different developments. We have only

built on 9% of land in England, we have the land for significant

numbers of homes, and housing starts are falling off according to

documents seen this week from the Government's own department. What we

need is determination by Government, leadership by Government and for the

house`builders to really step up to the mark both big and small

house`builders. Labour has broached an idea of a cap

on rent increases in the private sector. David Cameron said you were

on record as saying this was not going to work. I am against

introducing 1970s rent control. We are suggesting that families and

couples and people now settled in the private rented sector, renting

from a private landlord, should have three`year tenancies, and at the end

of the first and second year they would be a cap on the increase of

those rounds. That is a metaphor agreement between and tenants. We

have a new area `` era of buy to let landlords. It doesn't need

legislation. Families don't have that peace of mind at the start of

their tenancy. The private rented sector is providing a useful role

for people who want to be mobile and those wanting to get into owner

occupation. It is not fit for purpose, I am afraid.

are sort of absolutely stuck. All right, well, clearly I think we

could go on all afternoon with this ? for the moment, thank you very

much indeed. Well, a weekend of commemorative events is marking the

100th anniversary of the death of the man widely regarded as the

father of local government. Joseph Chamberlain turned Birmingham City

Council into such a powerful presence that he left a lasting

impression to this day. But is local government now about to undergo an

equally fundamental upheaval? Next year, councils must make savings

equivalent to 12.5% off their budgets because of a ?5.8 billion

funding gap. Well, it's against this background that the leader of Dudley

Council, David Sparks, takes over as the Chairman of the Local Government

Association which speaks for 400 councils across England and Wales.

Well, when I joined him in the council house I began by suggesting

he was picking up a poisoned Chalice.

We are in a very difficult period for local Government, but there is

an opportunity with the General Election to influence all of the

parties' manifestoes. You have said local authorities should stop

moaning from the sidelines and work together on what sounds like a

pretty radical shake`up of local Government finance including maybe

hanging onto the proceeds of the local business rate. Is this

achievable given the track record of successive governments in holding

onto the power and money centrally? We don't need their current degree

of centralisation. And we are of centralisation. And we are

producing a group went for whatever Government is formed after 2015. ``

a blueprint. We can argue that greater devolution than to local

authorities is a more economic and efficient way of delivering public

services. As the first Labour chairman of the LGA for ten years,

are you saying to me that as a Labour chairman you will be as

assiduous on behalf of issues raised by Conservative councils as you will

with those raised by the Labour counterparts? Absolutely. Where we

need to change is that the LGA needs to be far more astute in using the

group leaders, the different parties, given that we are a hard

organisation, to pursue party aims. `` hon. So that we cannot being ``

be accused of just having a consensus around the lowest common

denominator. There is talk at the moment about the wider city region

to mention, thinking for example of Greater Birmingham. Where do you

stand on this point from the tooth partly of Dudley and also from the

LGA's position? In the West Midlands if we don't have an organisation

similar to greater Manchester, we will suffer internationally because

we are in global competition. Clearly individual local authorities

cannot deliver all of those services within their boundaries any more. In

the Black Country, the boundaries are ridiculous. My own ward is

indistinguishable from Cradley Heath. In years to come when people

look back on your chairmanship, what do you want your defining themes,

your legacy, to be seen as? I would have hoped that by the time I step

down, the role of local Government will once again be entrenched in the

Constitution of the country. But people will realise that local

Government is not a branch of central Government, but it exists in

its own right. I would hope that we will be a viable organisation on our

own, like we used to be, but not determined `` to `` it is the case

that in effect local councils are still operating on a 19th century

model. We are now in the 21st century, everything has changed, and

we need to change. I wonder what Joseph Chamberlain

would think? David Sparks takes over just as over 1 million public sector

workers prepared to go on strike on Thursday, so he is right in at the

deep end. The LGA say they're disappointed about the strike. You

disappointed? I would urge both parties to get back round the table,

it is not fair on families with children, the children are not going

to be going to school as a result of these strikes this week coming, and

it will be tough for everybody involved. I would rather the

Government and trade unions can avoid the strike. With the main

public sector unions all lining up together, are getting towards the

time for beer and sandwiches at under ten? I don't think these trade

unions should be striking, there is much more negotiation that can be

done. People rely on these services. They strike should be a matter of

complete and at a last resort. I do not get any feeling that

negotiations have been taken as far as they can be. We have had some

difficult years, but there has been massive restraint across all of the

public sector. I think people need to be patient and we need to get our

economy growing again, then we will be able to have the revenue and

income to affect the kind of increases people might like to have.

If Labour come in, you will not be able to walk away from the restraint

that goes with austerity because you will still have the devastating

destruction `` deficit reduction strategies. What is disappointing

about what has happened to local Government under this Government is

that although David Cameron before the last General Election said local

Government was the most efficient part of the public sector, he went

on to subject local Government to the biggest cuts in the public

sector, and what seems to be happening is that this Tory led

Government is saying to local Government, only do what you need to

do, and David Sparkes and his predecessor have both said there are

some councils which will not be viable given the scale of the cuts

they are being subjected to. He is obviously in terms of a

radical reform agenda for local Government seeing the General

Election as an opportunity of working his way into the manifestoes

of your parties in terms of the structures and a revamp of local

Government. We all want to see local Government work better, but we will

not have a top`down reorganisation with regional assemblies. People did

not want that, and we have allowed those local authorities who want to

work together to get together and work together. A great example is

the local enterprise partnerships. Coventry City in the middle of

Warwickshire, and we have two authorities coming together and

working in the best interests of all working in the best interests of all

the residents of that area, able to drive forward economic growth. Let

us let authorities work together in the best interests of their

residence rather than governments saying we know best. Is it time for

something like Greater Birmingham, a city region? Speaking as a black

country MP. I don't feel part of Greater Birmingham, but I agree with

Mark that I would like to see a greater number of local authorities

in specific areas working more closely together. Great and is is an

example where there is real collaboration. Brush Mike `` greater

Manchester. Greater Manchester shows it can be done. Let us hope the

authorities in and around Birmingham and the Black Country can get

together. he was picking up a poisoned

Well, let's catch up now with some of the other political developments

making the news here over the past week. Our roundup in 60 seconds is

brought to us today by BBC Coventry and Warwickshire's Drivetime

presenter, Phil Upton. It's Coventry City Council 1,

Coventry City Football Club 0, after a judge ruled it was legal for the

authority to loan ?14 million of public money to the owners of the

Ricoh Arena. The sale of the NEC Group is moving

closer, with strong interest reported from potential bidders.

Birmingham City Council put it up for sale in March.

A campaign's begun to delay elections for a new West Midlands

police and crime commissioner until September. The sudden death of Bob

Jones prompted a flood of tributes. The most important thing for him was

being the voice of the community ? not his voice, he said "My voice is

not important, it's what the people want." And that's public service.

Telford and Wrekin Council wants to borrow ?120 million to help

Donnington's bid to become the main supply base for the armed forces.

And primary schools in Coventry could be left out of pocket, by the

new free school meal policy. The Government's given the council

nearly ?1 million to pay for it, but they say the cost is ?2 million.

We have since heard that campaign for a delay to the Police

Commissioner by`election has failed. It will take place on Thursday 21st

August. There does have to be an issue around the timing in terms of

turnout during August, but also the question of sensitivity so soon

after Bob Jones's death. Bob Jones was not only a colleague but a dear

friend, and I think it is disrespectful that a couple of

people have urged the rest of the region to rush into this. People in

Wolverhampton are still reeling from what has happened. He was a

councillor for decades, he dedicated his life to public service. His wife

and family feel it has been disrespectful that there has been

this rush by these two individuals to bring forward the by`election. I

think it is incredibly disrespectful. On the question of

turnout, the danger from your Government's want of you is it is

bound to be seen as a referendum on the success or failure of Police and

Crime Commissioners. `` point of view. Turnout will be low. There

should be some deferral. I noticed in the tributes that

adjectives like kind, intelligent and unassuming where some of the

adjectives applied. Not usually the kind of urging lives applied to

party politicians. I didn't know Bob, he I know he was an excellent

Police and Crime Commissioner and I'm sure he will sorely missed. He

was incredibly warm and generous, and he always wanted to do the right

thing. He was wanted to serve the community in which he lived. I hope

we can remember him for the good things he did. I really regret the

that this has happened, and that even before his funeral, even before

we have had a chance to take in what happened, it was a very sudden,

tragic death and a loss to all of us.

If we can turn to free school meals, the Liberal Democrats pushed

for this one in Coventry. Do you think your Coalition partner has got

that from? George Osborne made sure funds were available. If Coventry

don't think they are getting enough money, it's as like their local MPs

need to be telling them what is needed. `` telling the Treasury. I

would like to see covered to make the case.

`` Coventry. Finally from me, the redistribution

of wealth. You may remember Hereford's Conservative MP Colin for

it in our programme two weeks ago because Herefordshire, Coventry and

Stoke councils have all become embroiled in the finances of the

local football clubs. Now, the Labour MP for Birmingham Hall Green

has tabled a Commons motion demanding that Premier League's

television money should be spread more evenly throughout food. That

may even progress in London was being made

before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to

you. What will Thursday's mass

public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker

attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking

about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt

Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the

TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be

telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that

and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any

economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because

the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector

job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the

economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so

they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years

ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is

naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,

they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come

out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram

Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of

strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question

that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.

The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --

every time there is a strike, this idea of cutting it to ballots and

local election turnout was a third. Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of

London with 38% turnout. We need to talk about-turnout across our

democracy. That is an easy rebuttal for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was

hardline about changing the strike law. When you asked him the

question, if you are not going to stabilise the public finances till

2018, does this mean the pay freeze or no real term pay increase in the

public sector will increase till 2018, h e was inner vous on that

one. -- he was nervous on that one. This strike is different to those

strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The danger to this country is another

Labour Government. That is one of the main reasons that I left UKIP in

2005 because that last five years of the Labour Government was the most

dangerous to the fundamentals of Britain that we have ever seen. I'm

happy with the Conservatives. I have full Conservative values. I am a

Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining us. The Westminster bubble yet

again, which has a herd mentality, a bubble with a herd mentality, it got

it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's isolated, he is useless at

diplomacy, all of which may be true, but the British people liked it and

his backbenchers liked it? True. Although some of us would say it is

possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment

of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically

and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We

saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005

General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.

The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering

12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his

veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is

embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.

He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not

conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the

polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are

supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different --

the selection is very clever for a different reason. It is this

anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in

the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can

be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a

special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...

This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of

the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was

interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild

Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the

baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,

the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader

of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic

speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are

cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!

The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day

And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last

Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.