13/07/2014 Sunday Politics West Midlands


13/07/2014

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Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay

:00:38.:00:42.

As the campaign heads for the final furlong,

:00:43.:00:46.

what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?

:00:47.:00:50.

The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.

:00:51.:00:53.

David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.

:00:54.:00:57.

Many of those tipped for promotion are women.

:00:58.:00:59.

So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or

:01:00.:01:03.

And don't know whether to support Germany or

:01:04.:01:12.

In the Midlands, it is the fast political guide to the World Cup.

:01:13.:01:22.

In the Midlands, it is the fast show. Faster growth, faster

:01:23.:01:26.

broadband and the It's World Cup final day and

:01:27.:01:38.

as usual the BBC's snagged the Yes, eat your heart out, ITV,

:01:39.:01:41.

because for top football analysis we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen,

:01:42.:01:47.

and Alan Shearer. And

:01:48.:01:50.

for top political analysis you may as well tune in to them too because

:01:51.:01:53.

all we could come up with is Nick David Cameron will reshuffle

:01:54.:01:57.

his cabinet on Tuesday. The Sunday papers are full

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of stories telling us who'll be in and who'll be out,

:02:08.:02:10.

though they don't really know. The Mail on Sunday has one

:02:11.:02:12.

of the more eye-catching lines, reporting that former defence

:02:13.:02:15.

secretary and right-winger Liam Fox is in line for a return to

:02:16.:02:17.

the political front line. But there's general agreement that

:02:18.:02:20.

women will do well and some of the old men

:02:21.:02:27.

in suits guard will do badly. Here's senior Tory backbencher David

:02:28.:02:31.

Davis speaking to this programme. It's good to make parliament

:02:32.:02:40.

more representative. But you've got to do it

:02:41.:02:47.

in a way that doesn't create injustices, and you can't put people

:02:48.:02:50.

in a job who can't do the job. And I've seen that too over

:02:51.:02:54.

the last 20 years, people being accelerated too far too fast

:02:55.:03:02.

and they come to a screeching halt where they have to

:03:03.:03:04.

catch up with themselves. I am not going to give an example.

:03:05.:03:22.

Is this not a bit cynical? He is going to promote these women into

:03:23.:03:28.

cabinet positions, but they will not be able to do anything. I am

:03:29.:03:33.

sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It is an un-written pact in that the

:03:34.:03:40.

media and the government have a great interest in talking it up. The

:03:41.:03:44.

government says, haven't we refreshed ourselves? Generally it

:03:45.:03:50.

doesn't refresh the government. David Cameron wants to send out a

:03:51.:03:54.

new signal. You're going to see the old guard getting a P 45 and you

:03:55.:04:01.

will see a lot of women come in and a lot of younger men. We will find

:04:02.:04:08.

there will be a lot of resignations. A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I

:04:09.:04:14.

told you 18 months ago, I want to move on. Because the Conservatives

:04:15.:04:18.

have this perception of not being very good with women and not being

:04:19.:04:23.

good with black and ethnic minority voters, they are going to want to do

:04:24.:04:28.

something about that. Why did he not do it before? This reshuffle might

:04:29.:04:34.

be the triumph of the a list. A lot of the women coming through the

:04:35.:04:40.

ranks have been from the a list which was a half measure because

:04:41.:04:44.

they knew they could not bring all of them in. You are going to see

:04:45.:04:50.

more women but that is a result of a long-term strategy. David Cameron is

:04:51.:04:54.

not the world's most raging feminist. He is doing this for

:04:55.:04:59.

practical reasons. He knows he has an image problem for the party and

:05:00.:05:05.

he has to solve it. He was stung by that picture of the all-male bench

:05:06.:05:13.

at Prime Minister's Questions because visibly it gave you the

:05:14.:05:16.

problem that you have been talking about. I do not think he has allowed

:05:17.:05:22.

it to be all-male since that embarrassing image. I can understand

:05:23.:05:26.

the criticism made of this approach if it was the case that all the

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women being promoted by talentless but you have to be very harsh to

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look at them and say that they would have much less to offer than the

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likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be pro-feminist. The tests for David

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Cameron is that having raised expectations he has to give them

:05:56.:05:59.

substantial jobs. They have to be given departments to run or big

:06:00.:06:04.

portfolios to carry. If they are given media campaign positions in

:06:05.:06:07.

the run-up to the election it looks perfunctorily. He is under some

:06:08.:06:15.

trouble to perhaps suggest a female commissioner to the European Union

:06:16.:06:21.

Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has made clear that if he proposes a

:06:22.:06:26.

woman candidate they will get a better job. Saying they would like

:06:27.:06:35.

ten out of the 28 to be women. We are going to get the name of the

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British candidate at the same time as the reshuffle. The first

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face-to-face meeting, he will be able to put a name. There are other

:06:49.:06:52.

names in the frame. People like Archie Norman. That come from? His

:06:53.:07:04.

name is in the frame. There would be great scepticism of giving it to

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Andrew Lansley. People would think he was the man who mucked up the

:07:08.:07:11.

reform of the NHS. Who is it going to be? Either a woman or a man. I

:07:12.:07:20.

would not be surprised if they go for someone believe dynamic. Someone

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who would square the party. Would that not mean a by-election? It

:07:27.:07:32.

might. She is a high profile Eurosceptic. She is a very competent

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former banker. It would be the smart choice. I have no idea but my

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favourite rumour is Michael Howard. That had some legs for a while.

:07:44.:07:51.

The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street predict with confidence that the PM

:07:52.:07:56.

is going to promote more women in his cabinet reshuffle.

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The move can be seen as part of a move across British public life

:07:58.:08:00.

to do more to make our institutions less male and less white.

:08:01.:08:03.

But as the list of schemes to encourage diversity

:08:04.:08:05.

grows ever-longer, have we abandoned the idea of appointment by merit?

:08:06.:08:16.

Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for new trains. It does not get more

:08:17.:08:25.

macho than the Crossrail project. When Crossrail looked at the

:08:26.:08:27.

construction industry they realise that less than 20% was made up

:08:28.:08:38.

construction industry they realise women and they asked, can we fix it?

:08:39.:08:39.

They are trying with a recruitment drive that has brought in female

:08:40.:08:45.

engineers like this woman. She even has a tunnel named after her. Having

:08:46.:08:49.

more female engineers and construction brings a bigger range

:08:50.:08:53.

of opinions, a bigger range of ideas, more diversity, into the

:08:54.:08:58.

industry, and makes it better as a whole. It is the issue being

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grappled in another male dominated workplace, the Cabinet. There is

:09:03.:09:07.

about to be a reach shuffle and the rumour is David Cameron is going to

:09:08.:09:11.

promote a lot of female ministers. It was a lack of promotion that

:09:12.:09:16.

annoyed Harriet Harman this week. She claimed Gordon Brown did not

:09:17.:09:20.

make her Deputy Prime Minister because she was a woman. It was

:09:21.:09:25.

strange that in a hard-fought highly contested election to be deputy

:09:26.:09:29.

leader of the Labour Party, and having won against men in the

:09:30.:09:33.

Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy leader of the Labour Party I

:09:34.:09:36.

discovered that I was not to be appointed as Deputy Prime Minister.

:09:37.:09:41.

For women in this country, no matter how able they are, the matter how

:09:42.:09:48.

hard they might work, they are still not equal. There are initiatives to

:09:49.:09:52.

make the world feel more equal. In the City the EU wants a quarter for

:09:53.:09:58.

women in the boardroom but that goal of making 40% of the top floor

:09:59.:10:03.

female. At the BBC the boss of the TV division says no panel show

:10:04.:10:09.

should ever be all-male. In the ever glamorous movie business the British

:10:10.:10:14.

film Institute announced their new thematic system to get lottery

:10:15.:10:19.

funding projects improving diversity on screen and off and helping social

:10:20.:10:25.

mobility. Employers like Crossrail are not allowed to positively

:10:26.:10:30.

discriminate but under the quality act of 2010 if two candidate for a

:10:31.:10:35.

job are just as good you are allowed to base your decision on

:10:36.:10:38.

characteristics like race, sexuality and gender. Some worry it has

:10:39.:10:44.

chipped away at the idea of hiring on merit. A woman and three men

:10:45.:10:52.

going for a job, two of the men are really good and the woman is not

:10:53.:10:55.

quite as good but she gets the job anyway. That will create injustice,

:10:56.:11:03.

a feeling that she did not deserve the job, resentment. It does not

:11:04.:11:10.

advance equality in society at all. On this project they want to leave a

:11:11.:11:16.

concrete legacy of a more diverse construction industry. The question

:11:17.:11:20.

is, what tools do you use when it comes to the rest of society?

:11:21.:11:31.

I'm joined now by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown,

:11:32.:11:33.

a columnist for the Independent, and by Munira Mirza, the deputy

:11:34.:11:36.

mayor of London responsible for education and culture.

:11:37.:11:43.

Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches though. Should David Cameron be

:11:44.:11:51.

promoting women? He is going to do it anyway. He should have a long

:11:52.:11:59.

time ago. It does not feel quite right that a few months before the

:12:00.:12:03.

election it would do the party a lot of good to be seen as a party

:12:04.:12:08.

properly reflective of the entire population. He should promote women

:12:09.:12:14.

because they are women? I think he should think about lots of different

:12:15.:12:17.

factors, whether the people he wants promote have proven themselves in

:12:18.:12:24.

their current reefs, whether they are good performers in the media,

:12:25.:12:27.

whether they represent different parts of the party, but the main

:12:28.:12:32.

principle is to promote on basis of merit. There are many talented women

:12:33.:12:37.

who fill that description. It should be that merit is the important thing

:12:38.:12:43.

rather than what you were born with. The thing about positive

:12:44.:12:45.

discrimination as it flies in the face of that kind of principle. You

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are shaking your head. We have always had positive discrimination.

:12:53.:12:54.

Men of a certain class have appointed in their own image because

:12:55.:13:01.

they feel most comfortable with that. We have had unspoken positive

:13:02.:13:06.

discrimination in this country and every other country throughout

:13:07.:13:12.

history. We are asking as women, all minorities, let us get into the same

:13:13.:13:18.

game. What do you say? You cannot solve the racism or the sexism of

:13:19.:13:22.

the past by more racism and sexism. It is not the past. There are

:13:23.:13:28.

complex reasons why a smaller number of women will appear in certain

:13:29.:13:33.

industries. It has a lot to do with childcare, education, expected. You

:13:34.:13:37.

cannot short cut that by setting a target. That is not how you achieve

:13:38.:13:43.

equality. Things are changing and more women are appearing in

:13:44.:13:45.

engineering and so on but it will take time. My worry is that these

:13:46.:13:50.

kinds of measures are counter-productive and undermine the

:13:51.:13:53.

perception that women can do it on their own merit rather

:13:54.:13:54.

counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it than

:13:55.:13:58.

because they need a helping hand. It is not a helping hand. It is to say,

:13:59.:14:02.

we are as good as men and these hidden barriers. Dot. Either they

:14:03.:14:13.

are not as good or they do not want it, which is just how we persuade

:14:14.:14:15.

are not as good or they do not want it, which ourselves that it is not

:14:16.:14:21.

happening, or there are barriers. How we judge meritocracy is at the

:14:22.:14:26.

heart of it. Are lots of industries won there are not that many women,

:14:27.:14:33.

such as engineering. We need more engineers generally. I think it is

:14:34.:14:39.

fine to try to encourage more women to study that subject. By setting a

:14:40.:14:46.

target you put pressure on an organisation. You tried to ignore

:14:47.:14:55.

the complex reasons why women do not go into those sectors. I think an

:14:56.:15:18.

all-female short list achieved miracle in Parliament. This is

:15:19.:15:23.

following up from having an injection of women coming up because

:15:24.:15:27.

the system was changed and a large percentage of women went into

:15:28.:15:34.

Parliament under the all-female short list were brilliant, so why

:15:35.:15:41.

not? So if the Prime Minister is mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has

:15:42.:15:47.

to be female and vice versa? Yes, absolutely, 50-50. We need to

:15:48.:15:56.

reflect the population. If we want to play this as a symbolic gesture,

:15:57.:16:03.

ideally we should have one of each. Why should a man get the job if you

:16:04.:16:07.

have a great female prime minister and a great female Deputy Prime

:16:08.:16:17.

Minister? I personally wouldn't mind this. I hear the disgruntled man and

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I want to come -- them to come with us. You're choosing people on the

:16:26.:16:30.

basis of traits they were born with. Are there too many Indian

:16:31.:16:37.

doctors in the NHS? I would argue not. Given that we tend to have male

:16:38.:16:41.

prime ministers rather than female ones, and we don't see another

:16:42.:16:46.

female one coming down the pipe very quickly... In the time before women

:16:47.:16:56.

short lists by the way. If you had a male prime minister with a female

:16:57.:17:00.

Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that give some balance? Why women? Why

:17:01.:17:07.

not working class person, which group do you prioritise? I would go

:17:08.:17:12.

with you that we need something fundamental to change. This idea

:17:13.:17:15.

that what we have now is a reflection of a genuine meritocracy

:17:16.:17:19.

is highly questionable. I would argue that when you look at the

:17:20.:17:22.

statistics things are changing. argue that when you look at the

:17:23.:17:24.

statistics things There are more women appearing in parts of public

:17:25.:17:29.

life, that is a long-term trend, but if you are trying to appoint people

:17:30.:17:36.

on what they were born with... That is not the only reason but it is an

:17:37.:17:41.

additional reason. She has to be able to do the job, obviously. I am

:17:42.:17:47.

saying the policy of hazard to discrimination explicitly state that

:17:48.:17:51.

you should choose somebody who is female because they are female. At

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the moment there is already enough suspicion about women who are

:17:56.:18:01.

successful to get to the senior position and if you institutionalise

:18:02.:18:05.

it you reinforce that suspicion. Harriet Harman is still complaining

:18:06.:18:11.

women are not being treated fairly. I think the policy reinforces the

:18:12.:18:16.

prejudice that women are not getting there because they are treated on

:18:17.:18:22.

the same basis. Although you may not want to have the all-female short

:18:23.:18:26.

list forever, wasn't it the kind of shock to the system that made a

:18:27.:18:31.

visible change in female representation, which the Tory side

:18:32.:18:39.

hasn't got? Of course it will work short-term but longer term it has a

:18:40.:18:44.

very degrading effect on the principle of equality and the fact

:18:45.:18:48.

Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't treated equally, whether it is true

:18:49.:18:52.

or not, the perception is still there. A number of women find this

:18:53.:19:01.

position must be reserved for a woman lying patronising, and

:19:02.:19:06.

speaking of patronising women, you spoken your Independent column, she

:19:07.:19:14.

presses all of the buttons for white people... Was that patronising and

:19:15.:19:19.

offensive? Probably. I wrote it because I felt that at the time but

:19:20.:19:24.

the point is that I was a token when I was appointed. The paper brought

:19:25.:19:31.

me in because I was a woman and I was a muslin or whatever. You are

:19:32.:19:36.

not writing about yourself. I was writing... It doesn't mean you don't

:19:37.:19:49.

criticise other women. We absolutely have to be tough, Manira is tough

:19:50.:19:57.

and so am I. Do you want to take back what you wrote? No. Do you

:19:58.:20:03.

really think positive discrimination has gone too far? I think there is

:20:04.:20:10.

already a suspicion out there that in certain sectors women are being

:20:11.:20:15.

promoted for the wrong reasons or ethnic minorities are being promoted

:20:16.:20:19.

for the wrong reasons. That is a shame and my worry is that by tying

:20:20.:20:25.

funding to your ethnicity or your gender, by saying you will get a

:20:26.:20:30.

promotion if you check that box, but you feel that resentment and

:20:31.:20:34.

prejudice and undermine the case for inequality. I wanted to be treated

:20:35.:20:44.

equally, because I am capable of doing that job. Only two months to

:20:45.:20:50.

go before Scotland takes its biggest constitutional decision in 300 years

:20:51.:20:59.

- should it quit or stay with the UK? For some in Scotland campaign

:21:00.:21:05.

has been going on forever. What has been the impact on the campaign to

:21:06.:21:11.

date? Alex Salmond says Scotland would

:21:12.:21:14.

remain part of the European Union with sterling as its currency in a

:21:15.:21:19.

monetary union with the rest of the UK, but he has also promised more

:21:20.:21:24.

public spending, increased child care provision and free personal

:21:25.:21:31.

care for the elderly. The SNP claims it would leave people better off by

:21:32.:21:38.

?1000 though that partly depends on the price of oil. With the Better

:21:39.:21:44.

Together arguing against independence, it has naturally been

:21:45.:21:49.

attacking the SNP on all fronts. George Osborne says there will be no

:21:50.:21:56.

monetary union. President Barroso told the BBC it would be extremely

:21:57.:22:01.

difficult for Scotland to join the EU after a yes vote. His successor

:22:02.:22:12.

this week said he agreed. Unions claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by

:22:13.:22:22.

being part of the UK. A poll this morning shows a significant lead of

:22:23.:22:28.

57% for the no campaign, leaving the SNP to claim it will go their way in

:22:29.:22:35.

the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister of

:22:36.:22:39.

Scotland, joins me now. You want an independent Scotland to keep the

:22:40.:22:45.

pound, stay in NATO, stay in the EU, Scotland already has all of that

:22:46.:22:50.

but you cannot guarantee it would have any of it in an independent

:22:51.:22:57.

Scotland, why take the risk? All of these things should be the case

:22:58.:23:01.

because they are in the best interests of Scotland and the rest

:23:02.:23:07.

of the UK but we want the powers to enable us to grow our economy

:23:08.:23:13.

faster, to be productive, and overtime increased the prosperity of

:23:14.:23:18.

people living in Scotland. We also want powers over our social security

:23:19.:23:22.

system so that we can create a system that meets our needs, one

:23:23.:23:29.

that also has a safety net for the most vulnerable people in our

:23:30.:23:32.

society. Independence is about letting us decide our own

:23:33.:23:39.

priorities. You didn't answer my question, you cannot guarantee you

:23:40.:23:43.

would be able to keep the pound within a monetary union, stay in

:23:44.:23:48.

NATO and the EU, you cannot guarantee you could produce any of

:23:49.:23:53.

these things, correct? I would argue that we can because these things are

:23:54.:23:58.

also in the interest of the rest of the UK. No country can be prevented

:23:59.:24:04.

from using the pound, I suggest we use that within a formal monetary

:24:05.:24:09.

union. We have had the UK minister quoted in the Guardian saying the

:24:10.:24:13.

position of the UK Government right now is one based on campaign

:24:14.:24:18.

rhetoric and following a yes vote, of course there would be a currency

:24:19.:24:25.

union. Who is that minister? The Minister is unnamed, but

:24:26.:24:29.

nevertheless that story in the Guardian was a solid one and not

:24:30.:24:35.

substantially denied. So you are basing your monetary policy on one

:24:36.:24:40.

on named minister in one story? Basing it on Common sense because

:24:41.:24:50.

monetary union would be in the best interests for Scotland but also

:24:51.:24:53.

overwhelmingly in the interests of the rest of the UK, given their

:24:54.:24:59.

trading relationship with Scotland and the contribution Scotland's

:25:00.:25:06.

exports make. We are having a very good debate and the UK Government

:25:07.:25:12.

and the no campaign, and this is not a criticism, want to talk up in --

:25:13.:25:21.

uncertainty to make people feel scared, but after independence there

:25:22.:25:27.

will be constructed process of negotiation. Let's stick with the

:25:28.:25:30.

monetary union because most economists agree it would be very

:25:31.:25:34.

good for an independent Scotland to have a monetary union but George

:25:35.:25:39.

Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander are unequivocal, they say you won't

:25:40.:25:44.

get it. You claim they are bluffing but again you cannot guarantee that

:25:45.:25:50.

so why the risk? I would say the benefits of independence are

:25:51.:25:54.

substantial but I would also say to George Osborne and his counterparts

:25:55.:25:58.

in the other parties that it would be a very brave Chancellor that says

:25:59.:26:02.

to businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary

:26:03.:26:07.

additional transaction costs of half a very brave Chancellor that says to

:26:08.:26:09.

businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary

:26:10.:26:13.

additional transaction costs of half. What we are doing is making a

:26:14.:26:18.

case that is based on common sense and voters in Scotland will listen

:26:19.:26:23.

to that case being put forward by the other side as well, and they

:26:24.:26:28.

will come to a judgement of the common-sense position. Let's look at

:26:29.:26:35.

EU membership because you haven't been able to guarantee the monetary

:26:36.:26:44.

union. When President Barroso said that a seamless transition to EU

:26:45.:26:49.

membership for an independent Scotland was anything but certain,

:26:50.:26:53.

and one said it could even be impossible, you dismissed him

:26:54.:27:00.

because he was standing down, but been -- venue EU president says the

:27:01.:27:09.

same, do you dismissed him? What we are doing... I should say at the

:27:10.:27:13.

outset of this, we have said repeatedly to the UK Government,

:27:14.:27:18.

let's go jointly and ask for a formal opinion on the EU

:27:19.:27:23.

commission. The EU commission have said they will only do that at this

:27:24.:27:29.

stage if the UK Government ask for it, they are point blank refusing to

:27:30.:27:35.

do that, you have to ask why? It is in their interests to talk up

:27:36.:27:41.

uncertainty. Scotland is an integral part of the European Union, we have

:27:42.:27:45.

been for 40 years, we comply with the rules and regulations... Mr

:27:46.:27:51.

Juncker knows all of that but he still says it will be anything but a

:27:52.:27:58.

seamless transition. He said you could not join the European Union by

:27:59.:28:02.

sending a letter, that is not our proposal. We set down a robust

:28:03.:28:16.

proposal and the timescale we think is reasonable under these

:28:17.:28:21.

circumstances. There are many nationals of other states living in

:28:22.:28:26.

Scotland right now, if we were to be outside of the European Union for

:28:27.:28:30.

any period of time, something the current treaty doesn't even provide

:28:31.:28:34.

for, they would lose their right to stay here. The interests of Scotland

:28:35.:28:38.

and the interests of European Union are in favour of a seamless

:28:39.:28:43.

transition. It comes down to common sense and people in Scotland will

:28:44.:28:45.

make sense and people in Scotland will

:28:46.:28:48.

their own judgement on who is talking the common-sense. What about

:28:49.:28:55.

NATO, two years ago you told Newsnight the SNP's position is that

:28:56.:29:00.

we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a democratic debate, we looked at

:29:01.:29:06.

whether it would be in the interests of an independent Scotland, which

:29:07.:29:09.

forms a significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic and

:29:10.:29:18.

the party changed its mind. It did so in a thoroughly democratic way.

:29:19.:29:26.

That is the nature of democracy. Would you accept the protection of

:29:27.:29:37.

the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is no doubt the SNP's position is that

:29:38.:29:42.

we do not want nuclear weapons in Scotland. That is not what I asked.

:29:43.:29:49.

The world rid themselves of nuclear weapons. One of the interesting

:29:50.:29:54.

point is of the 28 member countries of Natal 25 do not have nuclear

:29:55.:30:00.

weapons. An independent Scotland... I asked if you would accept the

:30:01.:30:09.

nuclear umbrella. The key feature of NATO's military dog train is now

:30:10.:30:15.

clear shrike. We would accept the basis of which NATO is founded but

:30:16.:30:23.

we would argue two things. We want Trident removed from Scotland rather

:30:24.:30:26.

than have a situation where might we are spending ?100 billion over the

:30:27.:30:32.

next generation replacing Trident and we would argue within the

:30:33.:30:34.

international community that the world should move much more quickly

:30:35.:30:40.

to rid itself of nuclear weapons. That is the principal position and

:30:41.:30:43.

won the SNP has held consistently for many years. You would get rid of

:30:44.:30:50.

one of the key parts of the NATO deterrent based in Scotland. You

:30:51.:30:55.

would kick that out. You would not accept all of the club rules because

:30:56.:31:01.

you do not like the idea of nuclear. Why would they like a member like

:31:02.:31:06.

you in? Because Scotland is a significant part of the territory of

:31:07.:31:10.

the North Atlantic. You do not subscribe to the rules. 25 of the

:31:11.:31:15.

member states of NATO are non-nuclear members. You are saying

:31:16.:31:24.

you do not follow the doctrine. NATO has said it wants to move away from

:31:25.:31:29.

reliance on nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland would be

:31:30.:31:33.

entering the majority mainstream of NATO as a country that did not have

:31:34.:31:38.

nuclear weapons. By leading by example our moral authority and

:31:39.:31:41.

encouraging others to do likewise would be increased. Money and oil,

:31:42.:31:48.

the finance minister has said that an independent Scotland would

:31:49.:31:51.

increase public spending by 3% a year. He would pay for that by

:31:52.:31:56.

borrowing. Your First Minister says he is going to stash money in an oil

:31:57.:32:00.

fund. You're going to borrow and save. How does that work? There are

:32:01.:32:09.

two points. Firstly in terms of the outlook for finances and what is one

:32:10.:32:12.

of the central debates of this referendum campaign, austerity that

:32:13.:32:17.

we know will continue if we stay as part of the Westminster system

:32:18.:32:23.

versus prosperity. The economy can afford a higher level of increase in

:32:24.:32:28.

public spending while we continue to have deficit levels at a sustainable

:32:29.:32:33.

level. What is the point of borrowing and saving at the same

:32:34.:32:39.

time? People who have a mortgage and the savings account would not

:32:40.:32:41.

themselves what the wisdom of that is. This is based on recommendations

:32:42.:32:48.

of our expert fiscal Commission that as borrowing reduces to sustainable

:32:49.:32:53.

levels it makes sense to start saving a proportion of our oil

:32:54.:32:58.

wealth. In Norway, which has many similarities to Scotland, they have

:32:59.:33:04.

an oil fund worth ?500 billion. Scotland is part of the Westminster

:33:05.:33:09.

system is sitting on a share of UK debt. We can continue to allow our

:33:10.:33:16.

oil wealth, our vast oil wealth, to be mismanaged or we can decide we

:33:17.:33:19.

are going to manage that resource better in the years to come. Your

:33:20.:33:26.

figures do not add up unless you are about oil prices and revenue and you

:33:27.:33:29.

have been consistently wrong in your predictions. Last year you forecast

:33:30.:33:33.

that revenues would be the .7 billion more than they actually work

:33:34.:33:43.

-- 3.7 billion. The cost of the Scottish school system gone. There

:33:44.:33:49.

were particular reasons for that in terms of interruption to production

:33:50.:33:52.

and bigger levels of investment. Used ill have to find the money. Let

:33:53.:33:59.

me explain. They are based on robust assumptions, firstly a production

:34:00.:34:03.

estimates that is in line with the estimates of the oil and gas

:34:04.:34:07.

industry. Use of figures that are based on production of 10 billion

:34:08.:34:14.

barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been wrong as well. It is 24 billion left

:34:15.:34:19.

to be recovered. That is what is in the UK Government's oil and gas

:34:20.:34:23.

strategy so production in line with industry estimates and an oil price

:34:24.:34:30.

of $110 per barrel which is flat in cash terms would be a real terms

:34:31.:34:36.

reduction. The Department of energy is estimating $128 per barrel so our

:34:37.:34:40.

estimate compared to that is cautious. These are robust estimates

:34:41.:34:46.

based on robust assumptions. Except they have been wrong. Finally, we

:34:47.:34:53.

hear a lot from you and your fellow nationalists, you want a

:34:54.:34:57.

Scandinavian style social democracy, you know how to spend the money but

:34:58.:35:02.

you never tell us about social democratic levels of taxation. Also

:35:03.:35:06.

should grizzlies have higher levels of tax in Scotland does at the

:35:07.:35:13.

moment -- all social grizzlies. I want a Scottish style of social

:35:14.:35:21.

democracy. Free education, free medicines and balancing the books

:35:22.:35:25.

every single year. We want to get more people into work in Scotland,

:35:26.:35:29.

raise the level of distribution in the Labour market and make the

:35:30.:35:32.

economy more productive so we are raising the overall tax revenue.

:35:33.:35:39.

Over the last 33 years we have generated more taxpayer head of

:35:40.:35:41.

population than is the case and the rest of the UK. Those last 33 years,

:35:42.:35:49.

some of those years oil prices would have been high and in others they

:35:50.:35:53.

would have been law but we take different decisions. A report showed

:35:54.:35:58.

that if we go as part of the Westminster system down the plate --

:35:59.:36:03.

route of replacing Trident then the cost will be as high as ?4 billion

:36:04.:36:09.

every year. Our share of that is the hundred million pounds a year. Let

:36:10.:36:14.

us get access to our own resources so we can make different and better

:36:15.:36:18.

decisions about how to spend the resources we have. You are promising

:36:19.:36:24.

Scandinavian style social democratic levels of public spending but you

:36:25.:36:29.

say you will not need a top rate of tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia

:36:30.:36:36.

has, that all 25%, which is what Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You

:36:37.:36:42.

are going to have the spending but none of the taxes that make it

:36:43.:36:46.

possible in Scandinavia. For mischievous reasons you are met --

:36:47.:36:51.

misrepresenting what I am saying. The Scottish economy can afford it

:36:52.:36:57.

and we want to generate more wealth in our economy. We want to use the

:36:58.:37:01.

existing resources Scotland has. We are the 14th richest country in the

:37:02.:37:06.

world in terms of what we produce. We do not want to be wasting

:37:07.:37:12.

resources. We want to be spending resources on the things that other

:37:13.:37:16.

priority for the people of Scotland. These are the benefits and the

:37:17.:37:19.

opportunities really get if we take the opportunity of voting yes and

:37:20.:37:22.

becoming independent. Hello once again from the Midlands.

:37:23.:37:33.

I'm Patrick Burns. And both our guests today were

:37:34.:37:44.

high achievers at an early age. Oxford`educated, they had successful

:37:45.:37:49.

careers before entering Parliament. Oh, dear.

:37:50.:37:53.

Where did it all go wrong? She's now the Labour MP

:37:54.:37:55.

for Birmingham Ladywood John Hemming was a pioneer of the

:37:56.:38:00.

information technology industry. He's now the Liberal Democrat MP

:38:01.:38:07.

for Birmingham Yardley. We begin with Parliament under

:38:08.:38:12.

a pall of suspicion, yet again. This time, allegations of historic

:38:13.:38:19.

child abuse, and of a so`called establishment cover`up which some

:38:20.:38:23.

MPs, including John Hemming, He was one

:38:24.:38:26.

of the first MPs to call for a full public inquiry, along with the

:38:27.:38:31.

West Bromwich East MP, Tom Watson. He's been highlighting these

:38:32.:38:36.

issues for two years or more. Meantime, a former West Mercia

:38:37.:38:39.

Police detective, Terry Shutt, has told us he believes a list of names,

:38:40.:38:44.

found while investigating the notorious paedophile Peter Righton

:38:45.:38:47.

in Worcestershire in the 1990s, And a retired Hereford and

:38:48.:38:51.

Worcester Child Protection Manager says the allegations involve large

:38:52.:38:56.

numbers of high profile figures. I would say that we are looking

:38:57.:39:02.

at upwards of 20 and certainly a much larger number of people that

:39:03.:39:06.

have known about it and done nothing about it who were in a

:39:07.:39:10.

position to do something about it. We are looking at the Lord's,

:39:11.:39:14.

the Commons, the judiciary, all institutions where there will be

:39:15.:39:17.

a small percentage of paedophiles and a slightly larger percentage of

:39:18.:39:21.

people who have known about it and felt in terms of their own

:39:22.:39:26.

self`interest and self`preservation and for party political reasons it

:39:27.:39:31.

was safer for them to cover it up Peter McKelvie was talking to

:39:32.:39:34.

the BBC's Tom Symonds. Now Theresa May has ordered two

:39:35.:39:39.

inquiries ` one into the original handling of the issue by the

:39:40.:39:43.

Home Office, the other, a so`called Hillsborough`style inquiry,

:39:44.:39:46.

into the allegations themselves. John, do these measures by the

:39:47.:39:49.

Home Secretary satisfy the sort of My own view is that Baroness

:39:50.:39:53.

Butler`Sloss is a safe pair of hands, fully fledged member of the

:39:54.:39:59.

establishment who will be ideal for Stuart Syvret, who was

:40:00.:40:02.

the health minister in Jersey, and it is important, the link

:40:03.:40:07.

between Jersey and the UK, when he Leah McGrath Goodman was an American

:40:08.:40:11.

journalist who came to investigate the issue and she was banned

:40:12.:40:16.

from the UK in 2011, and then more recently she was arrested

:40:17.:40:20.

in Heathrow airport to stop her In a nutshell, you suspect

:40:21.:40:24.

a cover`up is still going on. I've identified with

:40:25.:40:31.

Leah McGrath Goodman an example of something this decade where

:40:32.:40:34.

efforts are being made to stop her looking at things because she is

:40:35.:40:38.

getting too close to the issue. What do you think it will

:40:39.:40:42.

take to satisfy public I am pleased we have

:40:43.:40:47.

a Hillsborough`style enquiry. In a way, the scrutiny and

:40:48.:40:53.

the level of scrutiny and the amount of forensic work that is being done

:40:54.:40:57.

by people outside the police authorities, by MPs and others,

:40:58.:41:01.

I think has helped shine more of a light on what has been going on

:41:02.:41:05.

and asks those questions and in that respect I am less concerned

:41:06.:41:10.

about the capacity for anyone to continue to engage in a cover`up,

:41:11.:41:14.

and we have seen the outcry over the People will not just accept

:41:15.:41:18.

that things have gone missing or People are prepared to carry

:41:19.:41:24.

on asking questions. As a barrister you know

:41:25.:41:29.

the difference between hard evidence We have had a lot of the latter

:41:30.:41:33.

and not much categorical, The set`up of the enquiry

:41:34.:41:39.

and the fact it is going along the panel type of enquiry

:41:40.:41:45.

enables those who are looking at this, the experts, to be able to,

:41:46.:41:50.

outside of the judicial process, get We have had a lot of claims,

:41:51.:41:57.

we need to get hard evidence, but we need to shine a light

:41:58.:42:05.

on cover`up and that is difficult John, looking at the political

:42:06.:42:10.

fallout, the last general election was under the cloud of

:42:11.:42:14.

the parliamentary expenses scandal. Could we be running up to

:42:15.:42:17.

a general election clouded It is more of a challenge

:42:18.:42:21.

against the establishment. The establishment also includes some

:42:22.:42:25.

elements of the judiciary so it is the willingness to do that,

:42:26.:42:28.

and Tom Watson has done a good job. This is an all`party operation

:42:29.:42:32.

trying to get to the truth of things that happened in the past

:42:33.:42:34.

and give confidence to people who The sad thing is that many

:42:35.:42:38.

of them do not have confidence This could also turn out to be

:42:39.:42:44.

very long and drawn out and go long beyond the date of the next

:42:45.:42:51.

election before we get clarity. It has to take as long

:42:52.:42:57.

as it takes to get the clarity we In the last few years we have seen

:42:58.:43:03.

a spate of stories which have shaken faith the British

:43:04.:43:08.

public have in important institutions, and I think that has

:43:09.:43:11.

been damaging so whatever it takes It has been far too easy to

:43:12.:43:13.

cover things up over time. Things are going on at the moment,

:43:14.:43:18.

last week on Brazilian television, as soon

:43:19.:43:22.

as they did an interview they got the threat of an injunction.

:43:23.:43:24.

Those things are still going on. For the moment, thank you both.

:43:25.:43:27.

Now, the story so far. Under Labour, one giant regional

:43:28.:43:34.

development agency, Advantage West Midlands, was set up to regenerate

:43:35.:43:36.

our economy, only for the Coalition to replace it with six smaller local

:43:37.:43:40.

enterprise partnerships. Now the Government has given

:43:41.:43:45.

them growth funding worth But that's significantly less

:43:46.:43:48.

than the old development David Cameron, at Halesowen College

:43:49.:43:55.

to see how further and higher Job creation, transport,

:43:56.:44:04.

infrastructure and house`building projects ` they were all in the wish

:44:05.:44:09.

lists submitted to Government Mr Cameron told me it was

:44:10.:44:13.

a boost for local decision`making. This is the end of the Whitehall

:44:14.:44:19.

knows best culture. This is saying to local areas,

:44:20.:44:22.

here are the money and the powers, now what can you bring forward to

:44:23.:44:26.

drive growth in your area? Telford's growth package,

:44:27.:44:31.

Wolverhampton's rebuilt railway station, Birmingham's Metro tram

:44:32.:44:34.

extension and Coventry's city centre They are all direct beneficiaries

:44:35.:44:38.

of gross deals, but Labour say they would be more

:44:39.:44:42.

ambitious with more powers for local The former development agencies they

:44:43.:44:46.

set up certainly had more to spend. During the 13 years of Advantage

:44:47.:44:54.

West Midlands, it channelled ?3 Over the next six years,

:44:55.:44:57.

the six West Midlands LEPs will share ?775 million ` an average

:44:58.:45:06.

of around ?129 million a year. A growth fund it may be, but the

:45:07.:45:13.

overall budget for it is shrinking. Ministers say it's not how much

:45:14.:45:19.

money, it's what you do with it. Local Enterprise Partnerships are

:45:20.:45:22.

more truly local than the development agencies, they say,

:45:23.:45:25.

and better`placed to identify the They say this is funding to create

:45:26.:45:29.

around 40,000 jobs and it will bring 13,000 new homes

:45:30.:45:36.

to our part of the country. And we're also joined here today

:45:37.:45:41.

by Peter Pawsey, the chairman of the Worcestershire

:45:42.:45:45.

Local Enterprise Partnership. He has long experience in the

:45:46.:45:49.

construction and property sectors. Peter is also the chairman of

:45:50.:45:52.

Robert West engineering. You have experience with

:45:53.:45:56.

Advantage West Midlands and Local Enterprise Partnerships, so you are

:45:57.:46:00.

in a good position to judge which of the two is better placed to deliver

:46:01.:46:04.

the regeneration we are hoping for. I believe the LEPs are, frankly.

:46:05.:46:08.

They are much more local. But they have less money.

:46:09.:46:14.

So far. The thing about the RDA is that it

:46:15.:46:19.

became a piece of government in the region and it was not as connected

:46:20.:46:24.

with people, it didn't connect with business as much, and if one talks

:46:25.:46:28.

to local authorities, they felt they were talked down to rather than

:46:29.:46:34.

brought in as a true partner. I happen to be fortunate in that I

:46:35.:46:38.

was chairing the rural regeneration zone, which was Advantage West

:46:39.:46:43.

Midlands' delivery vehicle into Herefordshire, Shropshire and

:46:44.:46:47.

Worcestershire, and I like to think it was the forerunner of a non`city

:46:48.:46:52.

LEP anyway because we ran with a There was this tremendous carve`up

:46:53.:46:56.

of territory when the enterprise A large chunk of the North

:46:57.:47:05.

of Worcestershire ended up with Do you have enough critical mass

:47:06.:47:10.

in the rest of Worcestershire to That part of Worcestershire

:47:11.:47:15.

and the north of Worcestershire is in both LEPs.

:47:16.:47:20.

It is in our LEP and theirs. It is one of 14 overlaps

:47:21.:47:25.

in the country and nowhere We have worked closely with

:47:26.:47:27.

the northern districts as much as the rest of the country and so we

:47:28.:47:33.

have massive involvement with them. We are not

:47:34.:47:37.

in competition with Birmingham, John, one of the criticisms

:47:38.:47:43.

of this funding is that this business of winding up Advantage

:47:44.:47:49.

West Midlands and bringing in the LEPs has stuck the regeneration

:47:50.:47:52.

agenda in its tracks for years Do you regret the winding up

:47:53.:47:58.

of Advantage West Midlands? No,

:47:59.:48:04.

because it is structured around city regions, it is responsive to local

:48:05.:48:07.

communities rather than government. We have had a financial problem more

:48:08.:48:11.

generally so the amount of money available will be less, so you

:48:12.:48:14.

cannot argue that one, and the LEP process is oriented around the city

:48:15.:48:19.

regions and that is more to suit the economy of

:48:20.:48:23.

the region than government niceties. Shabana, you have often bemoaned the

:48:24.:48:29.

passing of Advantage West Midlands, yet I heard the criticisms that it

:48:30.:48:32.

had too much money and became too The trick seems to be

:48:33.:48:37.

for it to be targeted and scientific You are coming in after a global

:48:38.:48:43.

financial crisis in 2010... So you would have had to shrink

:48:44.:48:52.

the growth fund Rather than dismantling

:48:53.:48:54.

infrastructure I am hearing arguments

:48:55.:48:59.

for repurposing elements of what was being done, trying to achieve more

:49:00.:49:03.

within the current structure. We have wasted time,

:49:04.:49:06.

suddenly government has discovered We have been saying that

:49:07.:49:09.

for four years. It is late for the government

:49:10.:49:13.

to talk about how we will get We know regional imbalances have

:49:14.:49:16.

got starker under this government. There is growth funding gathering

:49:17.:49:23.

dust in coffers while people who have bid for that

:49:24.:49:28.

money and bidded successfully are How do you view the story of delay

:49:29.:49:30.

and reducing budgets for growth I think as far as the budgets are

:49:31.:49:39.

concerned, while they are smaller They are better managed by the local

:49:40.:49:46.

LEPs, which is that combination. It is getting on for 50% down on the

:49:47.:49:56.

previous Advantage West Midlands fund. If we purely look at the

:49:57.:50:09.

growth fund, but there are other regional growth, the Going Places

:50:10.:50:12.

fund, are still feeding monies through and there are other sources

:50:13.:50:15.

in addition to the European money, For all this talk of growth, the

:50:16.:50:18.

results at the moment are patchy. You think of Yardley, which is close

:50:19.:50:21.

to some of the poorest areas of Birmingham and Ladywood is

:50:22.:50:25.

among the poorest places in the UK People

:50:26.:50:28.

in my constituency don't necessarily work in the constituency,

:50:29.:50:33.

they live in Birmingham and they may travel as far as Solihull

:50:34.:50:35.

and work at the plant there. The problem is the growth we have

:50:36.:50:41.

had in the macro economy has not been shared across the country

:50:42.:50:44.

and regional growth imbalances have increased under this government and

:50:45.:50:48.

nothing so far has challenged that. Also in the Growth Deal

:50:49.:50:52.

for Worcestershire, nearly ?2.5 million to connect more rural areas

:50:53.:50:57.

to super`fast broadband. The county council wants 90%

:50:58.:51:01.

of homes and businesses to be But the deadline's been

:51:02.:51:05.

pushed back once already. And now some business people there

:51:06.:51:10.

are increasingly frustrated that the roll`out is more superslow than

:51:11.:51:14.

superfast. Our BBC Hereford and Worcester

:51:15.:51:17.

political reporter Matthew Bone has been finding out what they're doing

:51:18.:51:21.

about it. Norton near Evesham is notorious

:51:22.:51:26.

for having some of the slowest But villagers speak of a mysterious

:51:27.:51:29.

green box which has recently Could this be the answer to

:51:30.:51:35.

their broadband prayers? I'm Matthew Bone from

:51:36.:51:41.

Sunday Politics. I hear the wi`fi speeds

:51:42.:51:45.

aren't great around here. Pretty poor. I live up the road and

:51:46.:51:50.

they are even slower so I tend I have a laptop.

:51:51.:51:54.

May I try it out and see how we go? Bringing a faster internet

:51:55.:51:59.

connection to places like Norton is part of a multi`million`pound

:52:00.:52:05.

project to bring superfast broadband to 90% of homes and

:52:06.:52:08.

businesses across Worcestershire. Planners had hoped to get everybody

:52:09.:52:16.

connected the end of next year, but I'm struggling to get the BBC

:52:17.:52:21.

website. Have you tried picking it up

:52:22.:52:32.

and shaking it? The county council says

:52:33.:52:38.

superfast broadband will And the government says the rollout

:52:39.:52:40.

is happening as quickly as possible. The importance

:52:41.:52:44.

of broadband has moved up the agenda with every year that has passed, so

:52:45.:52:47.

we understand why people are banging on the window saying, hurry up,

:52:48.:52:50.

but we are going as fast as we can. Just because you're based

:52:51.:52:54.

in the countryside, it doesn't mean Gtech near Worcester relies

:52:55.:52:56.

on its online presence to help sell But the company isn't covered

:52:57.:53:01.

in the superfast rollout, and had to spend thousands of pounds on

:53:02.:53:05.

its own broadband infrastructure. The first quotes were ?30,000,

:53:06.:53:16.

which is a lot Eventually our landlord paid 9000

:53:17.:53:18.

and we contributed 11,000 and got connected three weeks ago,

:53:19.:53:23.

so we got there eventually. Just up the M5 in Inkberrow,

:53:24.:53:25.

businesses like Elysia Skincare face similar problems but they are

:53:26.:53:28.

trying a different approach. Instead of laying miles and miles of

:53:29.:53:30.

cable, they use a series of towers ` Instead of laying miles and miles of

:53:31.:53:35.

cable, they use a series of towers Elysia are coming from off

:53:36.:53:38.

the hill here about three or four kilometres away and they have their

:53:39.:53:43.

receiver on the end so they can use the online services that most people

:53:44.:53:49.

are used to using in centres. One way or another,

:53:50.:53:52.

broadband is spreading out from our major towns and cities to

:53:53.:53:55.

more and more rural areas. The challenge is to do it as quickly

:53:56.:53:58.

as possible so that things like... So that problems like this become

:53:59.:54:03.

a thing of the past. Matthew Bone on the frustrations

:54:04.:54:07.

of long`suffering, or should that be long`buffering, broadband

:54:08.:54:11.

customers in Worcestershire? Peter, you mentioned you have

:54:12.:54:15.

special experience in the area How important is broadband

:54:16.:54:19.

in those places? So many start`up businesses are

:54:20.:54:24.

in rural areas and that is natural because people

:54:25.:54:33.

want the cheaper overheads that they will find in those areas, so it is

:54:34.:54:42.

essential we get that in place. What do you make of the frustration,

:54:43.:54:45.

those business people there Clearly that is right

:54:46.:54:48.

but things are moving quickly now, you are right to say it had slipped

:54:49.:54:54.

from some original dates but it is coming ahead of programme now, so

:54:55.:54:58.

the existing programme was for 90% cover of all premises, 90% cover

:54:59.:55:01.

of all business premises, which we believe is unique in the UK,

:55:02.:55:06.

by June 2016. The additional money

:55:07.:55:20.

which has come through is match funded from some additional BDUK

:55:21.:55:25.

money, which will allow us to get to John, having been a professional in

:55:26.:55:36.

the field of IT, what is your expert There are lots of different

:55:37.:55:42.

ways of getting IP connectivity. You can do it through wireless

:55:43.:55:47.

techniques or cable techniques. That is my worry, if you put these

:55:48.:55:49.

initiatives together, something like ?15 million of public money going

:55:50.:55:53.

into water sure on this one bad Could it not be overtaken by some

:55:54.:56:13.

other way of delivering it we originally had worming and cable

:56:14.:56:20.

along time ago and it was also the density of properties. And the

:56:21.:56:26.

density or sparsity of parties in rural areas where we know it has got

:56:27.:56:34.

more expensive to provide services to thinly populated areas, so if

:56:35.:56:41.

everyone is driving towards an increase to 5% it is getting very

:56:42.:56:54.

expensive. I think connectivity is important because a rural economy

:56:55.:57:03.

needs to do its bit in terms of our overall economic prosperity and that

:57:04.:57:10.

will not happen if they do not have transport or digital infrastructure

:57:11.:57:16.

because that is how the world is moving. You cannot future proof

:57:17.:57:21.

these things but to need a mix Our round`up

:57:22.:57:29.

in 60Seconds is brought to us today by our BBC West Midland Political

:57:30.:57:31.

Reporter Kathryn Stanczynszyn. Stoke`on`Trent City Council have

:57:32.:57:34.

posted footage on YouTube of Robbie Williams getting

:57:35.:57:36.

the freedom of the city. Robbie received the award

:57:37.:57:37.

in a private ceremony. Plans to turn a former coal mine in

:57:38.:57:39.

Warwickshire into a business park Daw Mill Colliery closed two years

:57:40.:57:43.

ago with the loss of 650 jobs UKIP's Regional Committee Chairman

:57:44.:57:47.

Jane Brooks has quit saying she's "deeply troubled" by the party's

:57:48.:57:49.

farming and environmental policies. They include relaxing rules

:57:50.:57:52.

on pesticides and nitrates and eliminating all grey

:57:53.:57:54.

squirrels. Unions say 400 jobs are at risk

:57:55.:57:54.

after Staffordshire County Council wrote to its 60 youth clubs saying

:57:55.:57:57.

some of them may not re`open again And thousands

:57:58.:58:01.

of public sector workers from across the region joined a national

:58:02.:58:03.

day of strike action on Thursday The rich are doing very well. The

:58:04.:58:29.

top 1% in our society their wealth grew by 18% in the last year. They

:58:30.:58:35.

could give a little bit back. But David Cameron has said

:58:36.:58:37.

a Conservative Government would legislate to impose voting

:58:38.:58:38.

thresholds and time limits on union Would be Labour government by sort

:58:39.:58:49.

this out? I think if David Cameron is going to go down this road of

:58:50.:58:54.

threshold and mandate he needs to think about the mandates of police

:58:55.:58:59.

and crime commissioners and the mandates in other local elections.

:59:00.:59:03.

It is across`the`board in terms of the democratic process and if we're

:59:04.:59:07.

going to tell the unions they need to up their game we need to do

:59:08.:59:13.

something about the parliamentary system as well because very few MPs

:59:14.:59:18.

are elected with more than 50% of the vote. On the issue of wages

:59:19.:59:23.

wages are starting to pick up so wages are starting to pick up so

:59:24.:59:32.

workers get a slice of the action? I workers get a slice of the action? I

:59:33.:59:35.

suggested minimum wage should do up to ?7. But some local authorities

:59:36.:59:38.

are paying people the minimum wage. It is compensated but things like

:59:39.:59:43.

universal credit are important to bring people in line but you have to

:59:44.:59:50.

make the maths add up. We are not out of the woods with the deficit,

:59:51.:59:59.

which means every year we borrow more money and end up with big debt.

:00:00.:00:17.

And this would be an issue that a Labour government coming in could

:00:18.:00:31.

not walk away from. It should be possible for those at the lower end

:00:32.:00:35.

will keep a bit safer. That is all the time we have.

:00:36.:00:49.

So, plenty happening in Parliament this coming week, including

:00:50.:00:51.

a controversial bill to make so-called assisted dying legal and

:00:52.:00:53.

Lord Carey has intervened in the assisted dying debate. Will it make

:00:54.:01:14.

a difference? It will make a difference because we have

:01:15.:01:20.

established in the House of Lords, I am not sure who they speak for and

:01:21.:01:26.

why they should have a privileged position, but he was a big opponent

:01:27.:01:33.

and has made a change of heart. The fact that the Daily Mail has printed

:01:34.:01:36.

this shows this is a big intervention. The Bill being pushed

:01:37.:01:49.

through, is it now on the agenda? I think it is. There are international

:01:50.:01:54.

examples of assisted dying elsewhere. The state of Oregon

:01:55.:01:59.

passed a Bill similar to this in the 1990s and things have not got out of

:02:00.:02:05.

control. That has not been an expansion or abuse. It has settled

:02:06.:02:08.

down and become part of the furniture. That makes it easier for

:02:09.:02:17.

this Bill, to make the case for it. Religious people may still have a

:02:18.:02:21.

principled objection but most other people have a practical objection,

:02:22.:02:24.

which is how to put in place safeguards to deal with unscrupulous

:02:25.:02:27.

relatives or anyone else who wants to abuse this right? Once a

:02:28.:02:32.

controversial issue is only being opposed for practical reasons it is

:02:33.:02:37.

on its way to getting its way. What is the division, is it the Church

:02:38.:02:41.

against everybody else? Is it a right and left division? What is

:02:42.:02:49.

stopping it? It is a very difficult moral issue and there are people who

:02:50.:02:54.

can have genuinely held Christian beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who

:02:55.:03:00.

can be on both sides. I think that the Lord Carey intervention is

:03:01.:03:03.

potentially a game changer not just because he is a former Archbishop of

:03:04.:03:07.

Canterbury but because he was on the Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of

:03:08.:03:11.

England. That is quite a big move. The response was to say, please

:03:12.:03:19.

withdraw your bell and let us have a royal Commission. The Supreme Court

:03:20.:03:24.

kicked the ball back to Parliament when they rejected the cases of

:03:25.:03:28.

three people who had been taking the case and said, we could say that

:03:29.:03:34.

banning the right to life is against the European Court of Human Rights,

:03:35.:03:39.

but it is a moral issue and an issue for Parliament. Parliament needs to

:03:40.:03:48.

decide. The data act that is going to be pushed through Parliament. In

:03:49.:03:53.

record time. To comply with a European court judgement. Tom Watson

:03:54.:04:01.

and David Davis, some dissent. Are you so prized with how united the

:04:02.:04:05.

establishment, left, right and centre is? No. There is a great

:04:06.:04:13.

quote saying this has been enacted under the something must be done act

:04:14.:04:18.

and that captures it exactly. Even Cameron says he does not want to

:04:19.:04:24.

look people in the eye and say that he did not do everything he could.

:04:25.:04:28.

There is no end to the power of surveillance. It is all was about

:04:29.:04:32.

drawing a distinction. I am always suspicious when politicians look

:04:33.:04:36.

something up and said, we have all agreed. Are there at the centre is

:04:37.:04:42.

right or is the political establishment right? I think the

:04:43.:04:52.

establishment is right. I think it is stronger than other issues. We

:04:53.:04:58.

are in a unique position where all three political parties have

:04:59.:04:59.

relatively recent experience of government so they now that security

:05:00.:05:04.

threats are not made up by unscrupulous people. The legislation

:05:05.:05:11.

being proposed is not dramatic, it is to fill a gap that was created. I

:05:12.:05:18.

do not see the political controversy. All three political

:05:19.:05:24.

parties support it. David Davis and Liberty are against that, and always

:05:25.:05:32.

are. Would you not have expected... The Lib Dems are in government, but

:05:33.:05:36.

a bit more rebellion on the Labour backbenches? There is no political

:05:37.:05:43.

controversy put outside parliament there's quite a lot of controversy

:05:44.:05:48.

about this. My paper has taken an interest in this. It is interesting,

:05:49.:05:55.

it does not feel, it is not a 1950s, three public school boys

:05:56.:06:03.

setting, let us have this deal. The Liberal Democrats and Labour have

:06:04.:06:08.

serious questions. There's going to be a sunset clause that will run out

:06:09.:06:15.

in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who asked pretty tough questions, have

:06:16.:06:21.

said there are assurances. Ed Miliband did not go to public

:06:22.:06:22.

school. For many English football fans,

:06:23.:06:26.

tonight's World Cup final presents How do you pick

:06:27.:06:28.

between two traditional foes Well, if you're

:06:29.:06:31.

a political obsessive, like these three, you could always back the

:06:32.:06:34.

nation according to how it votes. The website LabourList has produced

:06:35.:06:37.

a political guide to the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament,

:06:38.:06:52.

it was a fairly balanced playing field politically with 15 left wing

:06:53.:06:58.

and 17 right-wing countries. England found themselves isolated in a group

:06:59.:07:02.

with three left-wing countries. That was the least of their problems.

:07:03.:07:08.

There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over

:07:09.:07:10.

authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it

:07:11.:07:13.

through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the

:07:14.:07:23.

worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The

:07:24.:07:26.

left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and

:07:27.:07:31.

authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives

:07:32.:07:36.

remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the

:07:37.:07:45.

semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking

:07:46.:07:51.

on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out

:07:52.:07:56.

Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that

:07:57.:08:02.

pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina?

:08:03.:08:11.

We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser

:08:12.:08:13.

Should we read political significance in to the fact that the

:08:14.:08:27.

only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government?

:08:28.:08:33.

Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a

:08:34.:08:38.

Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour

:08:39.:08:44.

government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina?

:08:45.:08:48.

Absolutely not. I do not think it has anything to do with politics. It

:08:49.:08:54.

is a bit of fun. People should choose it is Don Hoop plays the best

:08:55.:09:02.

football and the Germans have been fantastic. They were great in 2010

:09:03.:09:07.

as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing

:09:08.:09:12.

people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I

:09:13.:09:17.

would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to

:09:18.:09:21.

seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not

:09:22.:09:29.

around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong

:09:30.:09:34.

political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the

:09:35.:09:46.

World Cup with a clear of -- with players of Polish origin. That sort

:09:47.:09:50.

of cultural change they have forced themselves to go through... You talk

:09:51.:09:58.

about them being right wing, but in fact the way that the German league

:09:59.:10:03.

is structured, and I am an expert, is based on ownership. It is very

:10:04.:10:09.

different from the Premier League. It is about football as a usual

:10:10.:10:17.

good. The ticket prices are lower. The fans are involved in running the

:10:18.:10:26.

club. It is a model that all English football clubs should emulate.

:10:27.:10:29.

Germany had a strong football team under centre right governments and

:10:30.:10:34.

centre left governments and a coalition. A strong football team

:10:35.:10:45.

and a strong economy. The Conservative MP who is the arch

:10:46.:10:49.

Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of the European Union and was for a few

:10:50.:10:52.

weeks ago when people were making jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker, he

:10:53.:10:59.

was outraged and said you should not do that, so he could happily support

:11:00.:11:05.

Germany. What was interesting about the authoritarian and democratic

:11:06.:11:09.

regimes, what is great is that the World Cup is run by this open and

:11:10.:11:21.

democratic organisation Fifa. It is similar to the EU in many regards.

:11:22.:11:27.

Two countries led by women. Maybe gender is the thing. We did not win

:11:28.:11:36.

under Margaret Thatcher. There's one big difference with the EU, you

:11:37.:11:42.

cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go to a European summit. Did you know

:11:43.:11:49.

that Italy won two world cups under Mussolini? Can we draw any

:11:50.:11:59.

conclusions between a political system and the performance of the

:12:00.:12:05.

football team? You can draw certain parallels between maybe national

:12:06.:12:08.

cliches, so the Germans are efficient and effective, which might

:12:09.:12:16.

reflect and the English are very polite so we let everyone score

:12:17.:12:20.

first and go into the second round. We put ourselves at the back of the

:12:21.:12:24.

queue. Is England going to qualify for the European? We are going to

:12:25.:12:36.

win the European Championship. The first country Scotland have to play

:12:37.:12:39.

is Germany. What could possibly go wrong? Who is going to win? Germany.

:12:40.:12:53.

Germany. I am going to put a few bob on Argentina. Are you going to be

:12:54.:12:57.

watching? Absolutely. Thank you. This is the last Sunday Politics

:12:58.:13:04.

for the summer. But we'll be back in early autumn

:13:05.:13:08.

and our first programme will be live from Scotland,

:13:09.:13:12.

the weekend before the referendum The Daily Politics is back tomorrow

:13:13.:13:18.

at noon and we'll bring you the last PMQs before the summer

:13:19.:13:23.

on Wednesday morning from 11:30am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:24.:13:25.

it's the Sunday Politics, unless

:13:26.:13:29.

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