14/09/2014 Sunday Politics West Midlands

Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.

step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?

Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that

Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the

The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American

journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently

beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.

The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,

also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK

Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed

His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said

his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary

Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power

to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,

Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.

Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr

Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.

Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who

Obviously our condolences go to the have borne this with such fortitude

in recent months -- David have borne this with such fortitude

will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in

that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a

collective response to what is a threat to humanity.

Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now

Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet

again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options

facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I

think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these

hostage They have been all along in these

instance, that British government policy

instance, that British government kidnappers. Other Europeans states

are thought to have done so to get hostages released,

are thought to have done so to get make substantive policy

are thought to have done so to get authorising air strikes. And

training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the

UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has

UK will play in that. We know it Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign

-- Better Together campaign, and there was another that gave a one

percentage point different. ICM have the yes campaign back in the lead at

54% and the no campaign at 46%, but their sample size was 705 Scottish

adults, smaller than usual. Another suggests that the contest remains on

a knife edge with 49.4% against 50.6%. When fed into the poll of

polls the figures average out with yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %.

But some people think 18% are undecided, and it is how they vote

gets -- when they get to the polling booths that could make all the

difference. campaigner and Respect Party MP

George Galloway. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big

business, big oil, big banks, the Tories, the Orange order, all

against Scottish independence. You sure you are on right side? Yes

because the interests of working people are in staying together. This

is a troubled moment in a marriage, a very long marriage, in which some

good things and bad things have been achieved together. And there is no

doubt that the crockery is being thrown around the house of the

minute. But I believe that the underlying interests of working

people are on working on the relationship rather than divorce. I

have been divorced. It's a very messy, acrimonious, bitter affair

and it's particularly bad for the children will stop that's why I am

here. You talk about working people, and particularly Scottish working

people, they seem to have concluded that the social democracy they want

to create cannot now be done in a UK context. Why should they not have a

shot of going it alone? Because the opposite will happen. Separation

will cause a race to the bottom in taxation. Alex Salmond has already

announced he will cut the taxes on companies, corporation tax, down to

3% hello whatever it is in the rest of these islands. And business will

only be attracted to come here, country of 5 million people on if

there is low regulation, low public expenditure, low levels of taxation

for them will stop you cannot have Scandinavian social democracy on

Texan levels of taxation. The British government, as will be, the

rest of the UK, they will race Alex Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it

by three, they will cut it by four. And so on. So whether some people

cannot see it clearly yet or not, the interests of the working people

on both sides of the border would be gravely damaged by separation. Let's

take the interest of the working people. As you know, as well as

anyone, the coalition is in fermenting both a series of cuts and

reforms in welfare, and labour, Westminster Labour, has only limited

plans to reverse any of that. Surely if you want to preserve the welfare

state as it is, independence is the way to do it. For the reasons I just

explain, I don't believe that. But Ed Miliband will be along in a

minute. He will be along in May The polls indicate... They say he is

only four or 5%, that is the average. Like the referendum, the

next general election could be nip and tuck. I don't, myself, think

that the time of David Cameron as Prime Minister is for much longer. I

think there will be a Labour government in the spring and the

Labour government in London and a stronger Scottish Parliament, super

Devo Max, that is now on the table. That is the best arrangement of

people in the country. But the people of Scotland surely cannot

base a decision on independence on your feeling that Labour might win

the next general election. It is my feeling. When the Tories were beaten

on the bedroom tax last week in the house, it was written all over the

faces of the government side not only that they were headed for

defeat, but probably a massive fishy -- Fisher. I think the race to the

bottom that I have proper size will mean that the welfare state will be

a distant memory quite soon. The cuts and the run on the Scottish

economy here in Edinburgh, the financial services industry, that

will be gravely damage. The Ministry of Defence jobs in Scotland

decimated, probably ended, more or less. It will be a time of cuts and

austerity, maybe super austerity in an independent Scotland. You

mentioned defence. What about nuclear weapons? The Tories and

Labour will keep them. You are against them. Surely the only way to

be rid of them in Scotland is by independence. But you are not rid of

them by telling them down the river. The danger would be the same --

telling them down the river. The danger would be the same. Nuclear

radiation does not respect Alex Salmond's national boundaries. They

would be committed to immediately joining NATO, which is bristling

with nuclear weapons and is what -- involved in wars across the

Atlantic. So anyone looking for a peace option will have to elect a

government in Britain as a whole that will get rid of nuclear weapons

and get out of military entanglements. We are in one again

now. I have been up the whole night, till 5am, dealing with some of the

consequences and implications of the grave international matter that you

opened the show with. David Haines and the fate of the hostage still in

their hands. There are many other hostages as well. And there are many

people dying who are neither British nor American. I have, somehow, been

drawn into this matter. And it showed me, again, that the world is

interdependent. It is absolutely riven with division and hatred, and

this is the worst possible time to be opting out of the world to set up

a small mini-state on the promises of Alex Salmond of social democracy

funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for the sake of the next question,

assume that everything you have told us is true. Why is your side

squandering a 20 point lead? I will have a great deal to say

about that, whatever the result This is very much a Scottish Labour

project, is that not a condemnation of Scottish Labour? It is

potentially on its deathbed. The country breaking up, the principal

responsibility will be on them. And the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job

that has been made of defending a 300-year-old relationship in this

island by the Scottish Labour leadership is really terrible for me

to behold, even though I'm no longer one of them. I don't know how they

are going to get out of this deathbed. Do you agree that if this

referendum is lost by your side it will be because traditional

working-class Labour voters, particularly in the west of

Scotland, have abundant Labour and decided to vote for independence?

Without a doubt, the number of Labour voters intending to vote yes

is disturbingly high. Even just months ago during the European

Parliament elections, swathes of people who didn't vote SNP will be

voting yes on Thursday. That is a grave squandering of a great legacy

of Scottish Labour history, which history will decree as

unforgivable. If Labour is to get out of its deathbed in Scotland it

will have to become Labour again. Real Labour again. I am ready to

help them with that. My goodness, they need help with it. I wonder if

it isn't just a failure of Labour in Scotland. People all over Britain

are increasingly fed up with the Westminster system, but it is only

the Scots who currently have the chance to break free from it, so why

shouldn't they? That is exactly right. They see a parliament of

expenses cheats led by Lord snooty and the Bullingdon club elite,

carrying through austerity for many but not for themselves and they are

repulsed by it. They need change, but you can go backwards and call it

change but it will be worse than the situation you have now. A lot of

Scottish people don't buy that. It is a big gamble. If I were poised to

put my family's life savings on the roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife

would not be scaremongering if she pointed out the potential

consequences if I'd lost. She would not be negative by telling me that

is my children's money I am risking. If I jumped off this roof it would

change my point of view, but it would be worse than the point of

view I have now. There is another issue here because the Scots are

being asked to gamble on the Westminster parties, which they are

already suspicious of, of delivering home rule. Alistair Darling could

not even tell me if Ed Balls had signed off on more income tax powers

for Scotland, so that is a gamble for the Scots. I feel the British

state has had such a shake out of all this that they would be beyond

idiots, they would be insane now to risk all of this flaring up again

because whatever happens, if we win on Thursday, it is going to be

narrowly. It will be a severe fissure in Scotland. A great deal of

unpleasantness that we are already aware of. That could turn but we're

still. It would be dicing with death, playing with fire, to let

Scottish people down after Thursday if we narrowly win. If you narrowly

win, and if there are moves to this home rule Mr Brown has been talking

about, England hasn't spoken yet on this. Whilst England would probably

not want to stop -- stop Scotland getting this, they would say, what

about us? It could delay the whole procedure. It is necessary, you are

right. England should have home rule, and I screamed at Scottish

Labour MPs going into the vote to introduce tuition fees in England. I

told them this was a constitutional monstrosity, as well as a crime

against young people in England It was risking everything. We are led

by idiots. Our leaders are not James Bonds, they are Austin powers. We

need to change the leadership, not rip up a 300-year-old marriage.

Thank you. It's been one of the longest and

hardest fought political campaigns in history, with Alex Salmond firing

the starting gun on the referendum Adam's been stitching together

the key moments of the campaign It is the other thing drawing people

to the Scottish parliament, the new great tapestry of Scotland. It is

the story of battles won and lost, Scottish moments, British moments,

famous Scots, and not so famous Scots. There is even a panel

dedicated to the rise of the SNP. Alex Salmond's majority in the

elections in 2011 made the referendum inevitable. It became

reality when he and David Cameron did a deal in Edinburgh one year

later. The Scottish Government set out its plans for independence in

this book, just a wish list to some, a sacred text to others. This White

Paper is the most detailed improvements that any people have

ever been offered in the world as a basis for becoming an independent

country. The no campaign, called Better Together, united the Tories,

Labour and the Lib Dems under the leadership of Alistair Darling. Then

the Scottish people were bombarded with two years of photo

opportunities and a lot of campaigning. For the no campaign,

Jim Murphy went on tour but took a break when he was egged and his

events were often hijacked by yes campaigners who were accused of

being intimidating. In turn, they accused the no campaign of using

scare tactics. Things heated up when the TV dinner -- during the TV

debate. Fever pitch was reached one week ago when one poll suggested the

yes campaign was in the lead for the first time. The three main

Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to head north. I think people can feel

it is like a general election, that you make a decision and five years

later you can make another decision if you are fed up with the Tories,

give them a kick... This is totally different. And Labour shelved not

quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex Salmond took a helicopter instead.

This is about the formation of the NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign

is that changes to the NHS in Linden -- in England would lead to

privatisation in Scotland. Alex Salmond's plan to share the pound

was trashed by big names. There were other big question is, what would

happen to military hardware like Trident based on the Clyde? Would an

independent Scotland be able to join the EU? And how much oil was left

underneath the North Sea? This panel is about famous Scots, we

have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry, Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon

Brown. These are big changes we are proposing to strengthen the Scottish

parliament, but at the same time to stay as part of the UK. A regular on

the campaign, he was front and centre when things got close,

unveiling a timetable for more devolution. People wondered whether

Ed Miliband was able to reach the parts of Scotland Labour leader

should reach, and at Westminster some Tories pondered whether David

Cameron could stay as prime minister if there was a yes vote. This

tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a good place to get away from it all

but it is crystallising voters' views. Look at what we have

contributed to Great Britain, and I am British and I hope to be staying

British. This is what people from Scotland have done, taken to the

rest of the world in many cases and I think I am going to vote yes. I am

so inspired by it. It has certainly inspired me to have a go at

stitching. How long do you think it would take to do the whole thing? I

would say to put aside maybe 30 hours of stitching. Maybe by the

time I am done, we will know more about how the fabric of the nation

might be changing. And I've been joined

by yes campaigner and convenor of Scotland's Solidarity socialist

party, Tommy Sheridan. An economy dependent on oil, the

Queen as head of state, membership of the world 's premier nuclear

alliance of capitalist nations is that the socialist Scotland you are

fighting for? No, that is the SNP's prospectus and they are entitled to

put forward their vision, but it is not mine or that of the majority of

Scotland. We will find out in two years. On Thursday we are not voting

for a political party, we are voting for our freedom as a country. That

is why people are going to vote yes on Thursday. A lot of people are

voting for what you call freedom because they think it will be more

Scotland. You have already got free prescriptions, no tuition fees, free

care for the elderly. You might not in future have that if public

spending is overdependent on the price of oil, over which you have no

control. We don't have to worry about one single resource, we

already have 20% of the fishing stock in Europe. We already have 25%

of the wind, wave and solar power generation. We, as an independent

country, have huge resources, natural resources but also people

resources. We have five first-class universities, food and beverages

industry which is the envy of the world. We have the ability to

produce the resources on the revenues that won't just maintain

the health service and education but it will develop health and

education. I don't want to stand still, I want to redistribute

wealth. But all of the projections of public spending for an

independent Scotland show that to keep spending at the current level

you need a strong price of oil and you are dependent on this commodity

which goes up and down and sideways. That is a gamble. I have got to

laugh because I have been told the most pessimistic is that in 40 years

the oil is running out, panic stations! If you were told by the

BBC you could only guarantee employment for the next 40 years you

would be over the moon. I am talking about in the next five. You need 50%

of your revenues to come from oil to continue spending and that is not a

guarantee. Of course it is, the minimum survival of the oil is 0

years. Please get your viewers to go onto the Internet and look at the

website called oilandgas.com. The West Coast has 100 years of oil to

be extracted. It hasn't been done because in 1981 Michael Heseltine

said we cannot extract the oil because we have Trident going up and

down there. Let's get rid of Trident and extract the oil. You are a trot

right, why have you failed to learn his famous dictum, socialism in one

country is impossible. Revolutions and change are not just single

event. What will happen here on Thursday is a democratic revolution.

The people are fed up of being patronised and lied to by this mob

in Westminster who have used and abused us for far too long. The

smaller people now have a voice What about socialism in one

country? Mr Trotsky warned you against that. The no campaign

represents the past. The yes campaign represents the future. That

is the truth of the matter. What we are going to do in an independent

Scotland is tackle inequality and a scourge of low pay. If we vote no on

Thursday, there will be more low pay on Friday, more poverty and food

banks on Friday. I'm not going to be lectured by these big banks, you

vote less -- yes and we will leave the country! The food banks will be

the ones closing. If you got your way, for the type of Scotland you

would like to see, state control of business, nationalisation of the

Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be clogged with people

Yes, hoping to come into Scotland, because in their hearts, the

Scottish people know that England want to see the people having the

bottle. The working class people in Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of

London, they are saying good on the jocks that are taking on big

business. When we are independent and investing in social housing the

people of England will say, we can do that as well, and they will

rediscover the radical tradition. In wanting to build socialism in one

country, it really means you are fighting for the few, rather than

the many. You are bailing out of the socialist Battle for Britain. You

think it will be easier to make it work. Think globally, act locally

and we will build socialism in Scotland but I wanted across the

world. I won my brothers and sisters in England and Wales to be

encouraged by what we do so they can reject the Westminster consensus as

well -- I want. We had the three Stooges coming up to London, three

millionaires united on one thing, austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed

Miliband wins the next election he said he would stick to the story

spending cuts. Why vote for Ed Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to

run a bath, not a country. Let's see if this is realistic, this great

socialist vision. At the last Scottish election, the Socialist

party got 8000 votes. The Conservatives got 30 times more

votes. Where is the appetite in Scotland for your Marxist ideology

question we might not win it. But do you know what, see in two years

time. See when we have the Scottish general election. You won't -- you

are saying you might win and you went to the Holyrood election and

got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won a democratic election and then won

the 2011 election and you know why they won? Because they picked up the

clothes that the Labour Party has thrown away. They picked up the

close of social democracy and protecting the health service was --

service. There are people in the SNP who believe in public ownership and

people in the SNP who believe in the NHS should be written into a

constitution as never for sale people in the the SNP that think the

Royal mail should return to public ownership. That is there in black

and white. Do you agree with George Galloway that this is potentially a

crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish Labour is finished. They are

absolutely finished. George is right in that. Scottish Labour is

finished. The irony of ironies is, Labour in Scotland has more chance

of recovery in an independent Scotland that they have in a no

vote. Labour in Scotland in an independent country will have to

rediscover the traditions of Keir Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon,

because right now, they are to the right of the SNP as a political

party. I understand the socialist vision, but it is where the appetite

is. And you look at the independence people in Scotland. One of your

colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who fought against the appeal -- repeal

of homosexual rights in Scotland. Another of your allies would seem to

be Rupert Murdoch, the man who engineered your downfall. You say he

engineered your downfall, but I m still here and his newspaper has

closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch, Brian Souter, or any other

millionaire supporting independence, I couldn't care less. This boat on

Thursday is not about millionaires, it is about the millions. -- this

vote. We will not be abused any young -- longer. Would you rather

not have their support? I couldn't care about the support. You know who

is supporting the union. It is the unions of the big businesses, the

BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who support it. You are giving me a

stray that has wandered into the campaign and are you seriously going

to argue with me that the establishment isn't united to try

and save the union? That is what they are trying to be. The BBC, you

have been a disgrace in your coverage of the campaign. Not you

personally. You don't have editorial control. The BBC coverage,

generally, has been a disgrace and the people. Oil and gas, go and look

at that, why is that not feature. Why is the idea of 100 years of oil

not featured in the campaign. Because the BBC does not want to see

it. Are you getting in your excuses if you lose? You better be kidding.

Is this the face of somebody looking to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40.

Absolutely. There is a momentum that you guys are not seeing on the

working-class housing estates. Working class people are fed up

being taken for granted fed up with the lives of people dragging us into

tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor. They will have power on Thursday,

and they will use it and vote for freedom. Are you happy with the way

the BBC has treated you today? So far, yes. I have still not been

offered a Coffey, but that might happen. That is an obvious example

Hello once again from the Mhdlands. you later with George Galloway.

Hello once again from the Mhdlands. I am Patrick Burns, and as hf to

demonstrate just how closelx our fortunes here are intertwindd with

those of Scotland, Anthea McIntire, Conservative MEP for the West

Midlands, has her family roots in Perth shire, where I am told her

great aunt and uncle are frtit farmers. They were, yes! And the

Shadow Minister for children and families, who was raised in Glasgow

and educated in Edinburgh, good to have you both with us. Incidentally,

I am half Scottish myself, so altogether we add up to a h`lf

decent blended Scott, I reckon. How is this from another name whth more

than a hint of Bonnie Scotl`nd about it? David Jameson. He is ond of our

most powerful Midlanders who is seeing an animal budget of ?500

million, yet the election in which he was the winning Labour c`ndidate

came and went virtually unnoticed this summer, just over 10% of the 2

million eligible voters turned out in last month's poll triggered by

the untimely death of Bob Jones the first Police Commissioner for the

West Midlands force area. Is that embarrassing legal turnout `nd

emphatic thumbs down from the electorate in what was widely seen

in effect as a referendum on the role itself? Given that lowdr

turnout, it makes UNEPs look usually popular by comparison. That Michael

it makes you MEPs. We need public support for the police come if they

are electing the Police and Crime Commissioner that can help. It got

was a very low Paul but we have to make it more accessible and relevant

to the electorate. Yet Nick Clegg on Friday sahd the

role had been discredited and the Lib Dems if they are in powdr after

the election will do their best to scrap the role altogether. H think

we shouldn't let the arguments of maybe one bad apple, where we have

had huge complaints about one particular Police Commissioner, that

should not be allowed to spoil the whole thing.

Labour have had their whole policy on it that has recommended scrapping

PCCs, yet the are now that xour party would just do a bit of

tinkering with it instead. `` the signs are now.

Well, I worked with David at Westminster, I know he is a decent

man who will try very hard to do that right things.

Personalised think we would be better to scrap them and I hope the

party has not given up on that. It does not sound as if that is the

view, we talk about Yvette Cooper looking at improving the chdcks

around the ball. One of the difficulties we have is

the timing of the next round of elections for Police and Crhme

Commissioner 's would make ht difficult for an incoming government

to have legislation in placd. You would almost certainly be obliged to

extend them whatever you chose to do in the long run and that is what

Yvette Cooper is trying to do at the moment.

For the moment, thank you vdry much indeed. Still to come today, after

the party conference in Birlingham we hear for the `` from the leader

of the greens on garden cithes, badgers and their general election

chances in the West Midlands. We have seen it all now, the Scottish

saltire flying proudly over council buildings in Sandwell, Stokd and

Wolverhampton. Surely they `re not bidding to split from the UK and

join an independent Scotland? Quite the opposite, their message to

Scotland is that we really `re better together. Come what lay next

week, this debate has already reopened the argument over dxtra

powers here, as BBC Shropshhre's political reporter has been finding

out. JoAnn Gallagher has bedn talking to exiled Scots in the

Midlands. What do they of it? `` what do they make that? a lhttle

piece of Scotland in the he`rt of Shropshire. The members of

Telford's Caledonian Societx are proud of Scottish heritage.

But nationalists is back hole have had enough of dancing to

Westminster's tune and want independence. These Scots whll not

have a vote on Thursday, but living in exile in the Midlands, what do

they make of it all? I think the 16 and 17`year`olds

might be swayed more than mx generation. Most of my generation,

the ones I have spoken to are against it.

We have a lot to gain, but ` lot to lose as well. I don't think everyone

will take that gamble. The referendum close to call, but

whether it is a yes or no vote, there will be implications for the

rest of the UK. Acton Burnell near Shrewsbury was the white `` site of

the first proper English Parliament and this barn is all that is left

from that time ago `` all that long time ago. It was held by King Edward

the first, who actually tridd to conquer Scotland. What would he have

made of the break`up? I think he would have been

horrified. Certainly during a lot of his reign a lot of money and

manpower was spent trying to bring the adjoining countries into

submission, the Welsh and the Scottish. Not at all on his agenda.

But there are plenty of voices in the region supporting a yes vote,

among them the English Democrats, who sees Scottish independence as a

pathway to an English Parli`ment. Our party is in favour of Scottish

independence. We think it worked be good for Scotland and for England.

`` we think it would be good. We want to see an independent Dngland.

We think England would be mtch better off without Scotland, Wales

and without Northern Ireland, but whatever happens to the futtre of

the UK, we think that England deserves its own Parliament and its

own pop `` government. Back in Telford, the party hs still

going strong, but come Frid`y morning will it be the No

campaigners left in a spin or the yes voters who are left reeling

Incidentally, subject to thd vagaries of the weather in the

Highlands and Islands and possible recounts, we should know thd result

by around 7pm on `` 7am on Friday morning. Derek Hilling talkdd about

the uneven settlement after the devolution deal under your

government. Is it anyone now that Nick Clegg, Nigel Farage on Friday,

the core cities, are sort of rising up and saying that England lust get

a better deal by comparison out of this once the dust has settled over

Scotland? Obviously I hope that they will vote

no. Well, I can see that, the b`dge is a

clue! I think it is certain that `fter

this, particularly if peopld vote No and we have TiVo Macs for Scotland,

there will be a demand for ` change in the regional organisation in

England. I am not saying th`t is a bad thing, I would not myself

support an English Parliament, but I think it would be a good idda to

have a constitutional conference and to think about how we could have

better arrangements for the rest of the country.

If not an English Parliament, what are we talking about? Regions? There

was no great uptake elector`lly when this was floated.

The reason why I advocate conferences, I am not suggesting

going back to John Prescott's assembly IDR, I think there is a

feeling people should be able to decide locally, investment strategy,

transport policies and how things are done, and how you make ht

accountable I think will cole afterwards. I think there is a sense

that Westminster is possiblx too remote. One bridging gap wotld be

regional committees, region`l grand committees.

And fear, what would you suggest as an alternative to redress the

balance little for England? The Conservative Party typicallx does

not like regions are very mtch, even though you as an MEP happendd to

represent this one. Certainly I am not in fear `t all of

regional assemblies, region`l government or any way of splitting

up the UK. `` not in favour. You do not want to bolster

England's relationship? There is a sense we are puny by comparhson

politically, yet we are obvhously bankrolling public...

Nor, I think as a united cotntry, and I hope that we keep Scotland, I

feel passionately about that, so that our Parliament is Westlinster.

We still have to answer the questions of if Scotland has further

devolution and Beasley therd is Welsh devolution, perhaps wd could

look at an arrangement wherd issues that only effect England ard voted

on in Westminster by English MPs. But I think it would be a bhg

mistake to create another l`yer of brokers say. `` Gourock to see. I am

all for pitting decision`making as near people as possible, th`t is why

I am in favour of ringing powers back from Europe to the UK. Localism

is important, but no more bureaucracy.

The cost itself could be an admin for independence for Scotland, from

the point of the view of thd West Midlands as we will be able to hang

to a larger share of public funding. ?8,500 per head of the population

here, something over ?10,000 per head in Scotland. The Midlands may

get a better deal if Scotland did go it alone.

I think we have no idea how things like changes in corporation tax and

energy costs could at firstly impact in this area, so I not convhnced by

that. `` adversely impact. Ht is about transferring some of the power

from Westminster and allowing people to have more of a say locally.

But a regional assembly is `nother layer.

I said I am not advocating ` regional assembly.

Regional grand committee? That would mean using existhng MPs,

getting them to have more of a say. In a way you are both saying that

existing parliamentary structures could kind of change into something

with a more distinctive English emphasis? I think we could tse the

present system at Westminstdr to have English MPs voting on Dnglish

matters. The most important thing is that we

really must stay together. H find it desperate that I have Scotthsh, I do

not go around saying I am Scottish or English, I am British. I cannot

bear the thought of us losing our great British country by by people

pulling out. We will see wh`t happens this week.

Thank you both very much for the time being.

Conference season is alreadx upon us. Birmingham has two of them this

year, the Conservatives in ` fortnight and the Green Party at

there's last week at Aston University. Their leader, N`talie

Bennett, accompanied by the Dudley Council will buck birth, has been

talking to my colleague. Shd began by asking what she made suggestions

that building garden cities on the green belt may be an answer to

housing shortage is new places like Stafford, Stratford, Rugby,

Worcester and jobs in. `` ndar places. We're basically opposed to

that idea. We have almost 1 million empty homes

in Britain. For like the decent regional development policy that

support particularly the North to enable people to live in colmunities

they come from, it has seen a real focus on the south and London but

also the Midlands. If we rebalanced regional develop with the policy,

that is one issue. Another hssue is the fact that we have more bedrooms

per person in Britain now than we have ever had before. Inequ`lity has

meant some people can afford a great deal of house and many people are

struggling to afford anything at all. What we are usually talking

about with green belt developments is expensive houses that yot will

need to have two salaries to support a mortgage and two cars to run on

congested roads. We need affordable housing in the centre of cities

A second badger cull is unddrway in Gloucestershire. Your party has been

very publicly opposed to thhs, but bovine tuberculosis is a problem

that has cost the country ?400 million in the last decade. There

are no viable terms of that the moment, including the vaccine, which

was ice does not work for a number of reasons. What would your party

do? `` which does not work. My first degree was agricultural

science, I have worked with dairy farmers and there is a financial

cost and human cost, lost hdrds lost bloodlines, I appreciate all of

that. But the fact is the evidence shows the badger cull will not

achieve its aims and will actually have the opposite impact. It is

inhumane and not backed up by scientific evidence. But we do have

the year culls and wild boar, fire badger is different?

This is actually likely to spread TB. The badgers spread.

Are your party happy being underachievers? In this reghon you

do not have any MPs or cancdls, and in the last elections your share of

the votes dropped. I absolutely do not agree whth your

characterisation. The fact hs we are fast`growing achievers in the West

Midlands. Four years ago we had three councillors on three councils,

we are now up to 25 councillors on ten councils. We are the official

opposition on Solihull Council. We recently won a County Counchl

by`election which, together with independence, helped to enstre that

full control of Herefordshire County Council was taken away from the

Tories. This is a fast growhng region for the Green Party `nd we

will have a great parliamentary campaign in Solihull.

Natalie Bennett. And with us here today is counsellor Felicitx

Norman, a Green Party member of Herefordshire Council, wherd she is

also on the planning committee and has contested many an electhon at

European, national and a variety of local levels, as well. Your party

leaders seemed exclusively focused on the principle of affordable

housing in the cities, but `s you know, there are housing shortages in

rural areas, as well. Far from being a green policy, this looks ` pretty

black and white one to me. I think it depends where yot are

talking about and whereas that may be a case in an inner`city, we have

a different situation in role areas. We still need housing and I

feel strongly in Herefordshhre are the focus seems to be more on

housing that will not be av`ilable to people on low incomes and people

struggling to find a first lortgage. Don't you need a mixed economy? You

need some in the cities, but you also have to address areas of

Gloucestershire, Herefordshhre, where there are common factors?

I am not arguing with that, but I go back to points that Carolind made

that we have thousands of elpty homes we have two be looking at and

looking at the business of homes that are too large or are

inappropriate for the indivhdual living in them and finding ways of

organising things so that that could be available. There are so lany

things we could be doing. It does not mean we must not build, we must,

but we have to be more senshtive about how to do it and be rdalistic

about what is needed and whdre. In Herefordshire, for example, the

council has a plan to build 16, 00 new houses. It appears to bd pretty

indiscriminate as to where they want to dump them. They want to put 300

houses in Leinster, add that to a village that already has 2000 houses

already. Your government brought forward and

then retracted eco`towns, for example, it seems to go on `nd on

and we have a shortage and no answers.

It is difficult, and I think you just heard some of the diffhculties.

The bottom line is we need housing, we need a mix of both kinds, it

needs to be affordable and we need to just agree a plan and get on with

it. The longer we surely sh`ll `` the longer we are indecisivd the

longer people will go withott. We have to bite the bullet on this

You are from Herefordshire, what is the reality? You had me raise the

question of rural shortage of housing. Absolutely, I think

localism is the actor. `` is the answer. In my parhsh the

council thinks it can accomlodate more houses and everyone will

support that. Let's establish a local plan and keep to that and then

local people have a say. Thdre is a role for new garden cities. Places

like en suite, they wanted, Oxford, the local authorities said this is

our plan. `` en suite. That is a positive way forward. We ard talking

about affordable housing, in my view affordable housing has to bd able to

run, as well. Important as the numbers is the

quality of the housing and dnergy efficiency and that sort of thing.

We have to focus on what we are building and what it will do for

those living in it. We heard in the interview how your

electoral showing has shown a decline. Are you on the back foot in

an increasingly multiparty environment, with UKIP getthng many

of the protest votes that you, whether you like it or not, used to

get? At the conference it did not feel

like that, it was so buoyant and positive and we felt like wd were

moving ahead. There is backward movement to some extent, but let's

be fair, you have me here, xou are generous, I love being on this

programme, but realisticallx we get a fraction of the coverage

across`the`board. Think abott the national coverage for UKIP,

concurred with the greens, ht is not surprising... Should you not be

doing more of the running? We absolutely do, the stuff that we

tried to get media attention and be on programmes is nonstop, it really

is. Yet the tide seems to be flowing

away against environmental issues...

We have a chance were putting the case that it is either or, the

economy or the environment. Clearly, we have a dilemma. If we get a

chance we would say these things have to go hand`in`hand and it is

economically sensible to pick up the environmental issues. Thank you

Felicity, for being with us here today.

Let us catch up now with sole of the other political developments making

the news here in the past wdek. Our roundup in 60 seconds is brought to

us today by our BBC Hereford and Worcester political reporter,

Matthew both. The field arts centre in West

Bromwich has reopened as a sixth for break form college.

It was shut down last year to save money.

The number of children's centres in Staffordshire could be cut from 54

to ten. Staffordshire Countx Council says not enough people are tsing

them. 29`year`old Kingsley Borrell from

Birmingham died after a strtggle with police officers. There have

been delayed break delays whth his inquest and calls for the CPS to

reopen the case. It has takdn so long to get these processes

completed. I hope once we have had that inquest

the CPS may revisit the dechsion. Campaigners in Shropshire are

fighting plans from health service chiefs which could mean the county

loses one of its two accident and emergency departments.

And the UKIP MEP Jill Seymotr has announced she is to stand in the

general election next year. She will contest the seat in Fokker

currently held by Mike of women who have been very new to

politics, new to Parliament, decided they have had enough. I think it is

up to all of us to make surd they understand the realities and ensure

it is possible to continue being an MP and enjoying life.

Jill Seymour, fellow MEP, UKIP, she will give Mike Prichard are run ``

mark Prichard run for his money won't she?

I think he will be absolutely fine. I hope she does not think she can

dot around from one thing to the other.

You cannot afford to relax too much because you have some very tight

marginal seats to defend. We certainly have, but our view is

that when people are throwing in the towel at this stage we think it

looks quite optimistic and Lindsay McIntosh, the

Times Scottish Political Editor think again that to say that the

momentum has stopped when you had a 20 point lead, this is a referendum

whether people will speak and they will be heard. Except for the one

poll which needs a huge health warning because of the size of the

sample, the momentum is unquestionably all the way through

August is going in the direction of yes. It hasn't quite continue to get

to the 55/45 four yes that Alex Salmond thinks will be the result. I

would agree with John. This was the momentum stalled. We saw the three

leaders coming up, and that kept Alex Salmond off the front pages on

the television and we had a raft of economic warnings which, although

they were dismissed as scaremongering, they will have had a

lot of traction with voters. What does the no campaign have to do in

the final three days? It has to focus on the undecided,

relentlessly. It has to do stick to the question of risk and keep

pushing back on Alex Salmond to say it doesn't matter if the banks

leave, it will all be all right on the night. The huge question amongst

the undecided voters is about the economy. It is about jobs and

currency, about business. That risk is what will crystallise in the

ballot box on Thursday and that has to be the focus. What does the Yes

campaign have to do? It has to drive home that the swing to the Yes

campaign is motivated by people who want a different politics. They have

decided amongst themselves that they want to change Scotland. The

unfortunate thing is, even though the no campaign has had the chance

to put up after proposals, they have failed. The Scottish people want

their powers were a purpose and they say that only the Yes campaign can

deliver that. There will be two days of relentless campaigning from

today, Monday and Tuesday, then the media, the newspapers, including

your own, will come out with the final poll, the ones that will be

the closest to the day that the Scots actually go and vote. I think

we will see more polling this week, but what is interesting is the

extent to which the pollsters are picking up what is going on in the

street. We know we have a huge number of voters who have never

voted before and are not engage with politics, so what will they do? The

third candidate in the election if I can would in this way, are the

polls. They might have a lot of questions to answer on Friday

morning. We were talking earlier with George and Tommy about the

Labour Party's consequences in all of this. Gordon Brown, of course,

has had a bit of a second coming as a result of this referendum. I just

want to play a clip of Gordon Brown during the campaign and get a

reaction. And I say this to Alex Salmond himself. Up until today I am

outside front line politics. If he continues to peddle this deception,

that the Scottish Parliament under his leadership, and he cannot do

anything to improve the health service until he has a separate

state, then I will want to join Joe Hanlon want in and securing the

return of a Labour government as quickly as possible -- Johann

Lamont. That was seen by some people as Gordon Brown implying he might

stand for the Scottish Parliament. Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon

Brown the saviour of Scottish Labour? I did a double black the

other night -- double act with him the other night, and I must say he

was a big beast all over again. He crossed the stage Meli dealt with

the audience brilliantly. He has a certain presence, Gordon Brown, but

he would really have to reinvent himself quite considerably. He is

capable of doing, but the man who was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton,

who pulled together the original red paper on Scotland, he would have to

be that Gordon Brown rather than the Gordon Brown of some more melancholy

events later. Tommy, you have both been critical of the state of the

Scottish Labour Party. Rather than looking to Gordon Brown, which might

be an interim solution, doesn't Scottish Labour have to find a new

generation of people to reignite it? What George and I are agreed on and

you have to remember this question of independence see us disagreeing

passionately, and in most other things we find ourselves in

agreement, one thing is clear, Scottish Labour is finished. They

have lost the heart and soul of Scotland. The fact that we are

discussing with four days to go an independence referendum that is neck

and neck, Labour have failed miserably, absolutely miserably

because they have given up everything they stood for. The SNP

has picked it up. They have just taken on the bank -- mantle of a

left of centre party and are picking up support. Gordon and the rest in

my opinion, they represent the past. The yes vote on the Yes campaign

represents the future. What do you say to that? There is nothing

socialist about an SNP that wants to cut business tax by 3% in the pan.

There is nothing socialist about an SNP destroying further education so

they can give middle-class people free education. The Labour Party is

alive and kicking. You can see if it is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with

the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to use this word, but they are kind of

privatised from the Scottish Labour Party. They have rode their own

fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump because official Scottish Labour did

not want him leading their campaign. Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off

the stage until it became so critical that he had to be brought

back. I agree with John, the SNP talks left but acts right. That is

before they get state powers. That is what is exciting about the

referendum, it's not about the SNP, it's about the people deciding. What

we have heard so far in the referendum campaign is that there is

a desperate yearning in the electorate for real politics,

purposeful politics and for the people to be represented. It is

probably to the eternal shame of labour that they gave up that role

and other people are now taking it upon themselves. How would you

assess the state of the Labour Party? The problem is that it was

demolished by the SNP in 2011 and what they should have done since

then and in other circumstances is take a real look within themselves

and brought forward new talent and policies and watch out what they

stood for. They've been unable to do that because they are locked in a

constitutional row. It is the plan of the Nationalists to fight the

first Scottish general election as an independent nation as a

nationalist party with its own programme. You don't all go your own

way. Why don't you do that? You have more on your main reason to be, so

why not go, left, right and centre question you are presuming you don't

go the one-way. I do not see the function of the SNP after the yes

vote. I think it is clear that there is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an

SNP which attracts votes from the left and that is the one for me

Whether that is called the SNP or something else, I don't know. I

think the assumption that we are going into a mirror of old politics

in a new world is just fundamentally flawed. That is interesting. Let's

just bring in the English dimensional. In many ways, England

has not spoken in this referendum campaign. Whether it is yes or no,

it will, and to give you a flavour of what some in England might be

thinking was saying, here is a clip from John Redwood. We are fed up

with this lopsided devolution, this unfair devolution. Scotland gets

first-class Devolution, Wales gets second-class devolution and England

gets nothing. If Wales wants the same as us, they should have it and

then there would be commonality so we could discuss and decide in our

own countries, in our own assemblies in Parliament, all those things that

are devolved. George, it was clear that if Scotland voted yes for

independence it has huge implications for England than the

UK, but it's also clear particularly after Gordon Brown's intervention,

even if it is no, it has huge applications. You are, I suggest,

agreeing with John Redwood that there should be an English boys It

would be a step too far for me to agree with him -- English voice I

appreciate I might have gone out on a limb. He is the voice of Mars the

Balkan from Mars. My own constituents in Bradford are asking,

what about us? All these things being done, all the extra mile is

being travel to Scotland, what about us? Labour would be well advised to

adjust quickly on this so that the John Redwood types do not steal the

show. England has yes to use -- yet to speak. It's interesting when you

hear a Labour backbencher in Scotland talk about a command paper.

He is not in government. Gordon Brown is going round Scotland

promising things and he has absolutely no chance of delivering

them. The MPs in England will say, hey, what are you talking about We

have never been discussed with that? We have not agreed with that. The

only way people in Scotland will get the powers they deserve is by voting

yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you think it is 60/40. I will stick with

it, because we have an unprecedented election. 97% of Scotland is

registered to vote. The working class will vote in numbers never

voted before. George? 55/45 for our side. And if there is a rogue poll,

the tek Levesley polled -- technically flawed poll, which

should not be published because it is so flawed, then we would be

stretching towards what I am predicting already. I think in the

last few days we will reach that. Come on. If the no campaign can get

the silent majority out, they will edge it. You think they will win,

but how much? They cannot give up in a second, a moment or a mile. It is

that close. It will be won by the passionate view. I will go for a

narrow yes victory. I'm the George, 53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. --

I am with George. I will leave you to argue about that later. Thank you

for being with us on the special Sunday politics from Edinburgh.

That's all from us today in Scotland.

Don't forget the Daily Politics will have continuing coverage

of the referendum campaign all this week on BBC2 at midday.

On Thursday night Huw Edwards will be in Glasgow and I will be

in London to bring you live coverage of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm

on a historic night for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

And I'll be back next Sunday when we're live from the Labour

Unless, of course, the referendum result is so tumultuous even the

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.