21/09/2014 Sunday Politics West Midlands


21/09/2014

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Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering

:00:09.:00:12.

for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what

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the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for

:00:16.:00:53.

Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north

:00:54.:00:59.

But what about Home Rule for England?

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Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells

:01:07.:01:11.

us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've

:01:12.:01:16.

And in the Midlands: people who want to

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Scotland's had its say. Now what price Devo England?

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And the garden city revisitdd ` is this the answer to

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This and more in just over half an hour.

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powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step

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for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the

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business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,

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Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to

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other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,

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but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and

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enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when

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it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons

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of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,

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the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It

:02:22.:02:31.

has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that

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they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only

:02:36.:02:41.

votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core

:02:42.:02:45.

justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the

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House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -

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cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David

:02:58.:03:00.

Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris

:03:01.:03:04.

Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr

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Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood

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and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he

:03:12.:03:21.

They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the

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Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is

:03:29.:03:37.

a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the

:03:38.:03:40.

ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He

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knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a

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draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they

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had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve

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these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they

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don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about

:04:04.:04:08.

is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at

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the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an

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overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern

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Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is

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whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he

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would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get

:04:31.:04:35.

either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause

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Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband

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this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why

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shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this

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morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and

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English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is

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in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his

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announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in

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Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if

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Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is

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handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural

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Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory

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backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be

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in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet

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think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a

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partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on

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course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,

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and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the

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Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in

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sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this

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one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle

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to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband

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and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett

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Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,

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but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how

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the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,

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Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,

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because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher

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in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs

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aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the

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Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How

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can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just

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about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we

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are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers

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of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the

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wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we

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should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to

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the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett

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Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively

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prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance

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staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is

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more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland

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than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very

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poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That

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they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the

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Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand

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the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster

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politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to

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rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your

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leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of

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all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the

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Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was

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counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing

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voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep

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proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We

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said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes

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on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,

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pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of

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the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a

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Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double

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standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly

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unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is

:08:50.:08:55.

unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland

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gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London

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Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There

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is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.

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Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year

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revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5

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billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer

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investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a

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more federal system, we would need to look at things like the

:09:37.:09:39.

allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted

:09:40.:09:44.

as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party

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architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so

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it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to

:09:54.:09:57.

the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs

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basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of

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Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his

:10:06.:10:10.

promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English

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votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he

:10:14.:10:17.

made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked

:10:18.:10:21.

on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots

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of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at

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this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find

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that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot

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just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for

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all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more

:10:46.:10:48.

devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English,

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and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's

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leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

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The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from

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the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex

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Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us

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another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand

:11:06.:11:07.

Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.

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In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,

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but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke

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The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for

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Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big

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screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories

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high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The

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other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is

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enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot

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papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000

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and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the

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first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like

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Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to

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sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you

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small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign

:12:38.:12:39.

applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went

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their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for

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independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of

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tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the

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refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy

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place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British

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establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this

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referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the

:13:14.:13:18.

establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.

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But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC

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called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The

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result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the

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official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen

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three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as

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the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south

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as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if

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it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote

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separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,

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spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern

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Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take

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place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.

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It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See

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you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be

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another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There

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was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,

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his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the

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Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,

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the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader

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gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as

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First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last

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night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if

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it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I

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certainly have thought about it Andrew. But for most of the

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referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...

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Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally

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made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the

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decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you

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get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real

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possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion

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but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of

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the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are

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the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my

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judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the

:16:13.:16:17.

National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.

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In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day

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approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought

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for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real

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chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the

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decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,

:16:43.:16:48.

the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from

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Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the

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offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across

:16:56.:17:00.

to independence saw within that a reason to say, well, we can get

:17:01.:17:03.

something anyway without the perceived risks that were being

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festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.

:17:12.:17:18.

You won Scotland's largest city There is now the prospect of more

:17:19.:17:23.

power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is

:17:24.:17:29.

a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part

:17:30.:17:33.

of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire

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wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to

:17:38.:17:42.

be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see

:17:43.:17:46.

that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There

:17:47.:17:52.

are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the

:17:53.:17:55.

party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24

:17:56.:18:02.

years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many

:18:03.:18:05.

able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will

:18:06.:18:09.

do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take

:18:10.:18:17.

this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is

:18:18.:18:20.

developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that

:18:21.:18:24.

lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won

:18:25.:18:30.

end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days

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before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would

:18:35.:18:38.

change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There

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are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as

:18:46.:18:50.

a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will

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leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before

:18:57.:19:00.

Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I

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would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary

:19:04.:19:08.

campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving

:19:09.:19:12.

the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like

:19:13.:19:17.

of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon

:19:18.:19:20.

of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far

:19:21.:19:26.

almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you

:19:27.:19:37.

would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and

:19:38.:19:44.

pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him

:19:45.:19:48.

that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.

:19:49.:19:56.

The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was

:19:57.:19:59.

extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in

:20:00.:20:04.

the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair

:20:05.:20:13.

kick of the ball. In newspapers I would settle for no editorial line

:20:14.:20:16.

and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish

:20:17.:20:20.

Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,

:20:21.:20:26.

certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in

:20:27.:20:36.

Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum

:20:37.:20:41.

wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that

:20:42.:20:47.

still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal

:20:48.:20:51.

view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK

:20:52.:20:56.

moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of

:20:57.:20:58.

circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and

:20:59.:21:02.

I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am

:21:03.:21:08.

just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally

:21:09.:21:12.

shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?

:21:13.:21:18.

You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that

:21:19.:21:22.

essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants

:21:23.:21:27.

to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that

:21:28.:21:30.

because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this

:21:31.:21:35.

and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are

:21:36.:21:38.

frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority

:21:39.:21:41.

in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an

:21:42.:21:46.

irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is

:21:47.:21:52.

movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something

:21:53.:21:56.

cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I

:21:57.:21:58.

think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It

:21:59.:22:05.

was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,

:22:06.:22:09.

effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and

:22:10.:22:15.

David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about

:22:16.:22:22.

the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that

:22:23.:22:29.

matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you

:22:30.:22:35.

advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or

:22:36.:22:40.

her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader

:22:41.:22:48.

brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very

:22:49.:22:52.

favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined

:22:53.:22:59.

since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in

:23:00.:23:02.

the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity

:23:03.:23:15.

for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would

:23:16.:23:18.

repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First

:23:19.:23:24.

Minister of Scotland. On Friday coming back to the north-east of

:23:25.:23:28.

Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --

:23:29.:23:35.

substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my

:23:36.:23:39.

head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last

:23:40.:23:47.

line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not

:23:48.:23:55.

seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the

:23:56.:23:58.

Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?

:23:59.:24:03.

What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is

:24:04.:24:10.

dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose

:24:11.:24:14.

to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a

:24:15.:24:19.

constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line

:24:20.:24:21.

politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do

:24:22.:24:26.

it properly, I am sure they did But I love it. You get distilled wisdom

:24:27.:24:32.

from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your

:24:33.:24:35.

feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to

:24:36.:24:39.

people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of

:24:40.:24:44.

Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes

:24:45.:24:55.

Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the

:24:56.:25:03.

independence referendum is over the next big electoral test is a general

:25:04.:25:07.

election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be

:25:08.:25:13.

talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men

:25:14.:25:17.

and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday

:25:18.:25:22.

Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the

:25:23.:25:27.

Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates

:25:28.:25:29.

say that the level of public spending during their last period of

:25:30.:25:33.

office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise

:25:34.:25:38.

taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On

:25:39.:25:42.

immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too

:25:43.:25:48.

high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates

:25:49.:25:51.

believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.

:25:52.:25:55.

Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the

:25:56.:26:01.

candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in

:26:02.:26:04.

five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change

:26:05.:26:10.

of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came

:26:11.:26:19.

in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.

:26:20.:26:23.

Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think

:26:24.:26:30.

I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't

:26:31.:26:33.

think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right I

:26:34.:26:37.

think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many

:26:38.:26:42.

of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next

:26:43.:26:45.

generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your

:26:46.:26:48.

viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they

:26:49.:26:52.

can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the

:26:53.:26:57.

public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want

:26:58.:27:01.

to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they

:27:02.:27:03.

don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap

:27:04.:27:07.

Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party

:27:08.:27:12.

policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our

:27:13.:27:15.

policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over

:27:16.:27:20.

?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that

:27:21.:27:22.

enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk

:27:23.:27:31.

to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns

:27:32.:27:34.

about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,

:27:35.:27:38.

yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they

:27:39.:27:41.

take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural

:27:42.:27:45.

nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't

:27:46.:27:49.

think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's

:27:50.:27:55.

not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You

:27:56.:28:00.

described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you

:28:01.:28:04.

that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions

:28:05.:28:09.

that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t

:28:10.:28:13.

think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the

:28:14.:28:17.

heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,

:28:18.:28:21.

radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy It

:28:22.:28:25.

isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will

:28:26.:28:35.

have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general

:28:36.:28:39.

election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.

:28:40.:28:44.

I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They

:28:45.:28:49.

are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a

:28:50.:28:53.

small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's

:28:54.:28:57.

pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or

:28:58.:29:01.

wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour

:29:02.:29:06.

is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old

:29:07.:29:14.

or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great

:29:15.:29:17.

country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can

:29:18.:29:22.

achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are

:29:23.:29:26.

not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of

:29:27.:29:29.

their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.

:29:30.:29:33.

Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we

:29:34.:29:36.

are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you

:29:37.:29:40.

want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between

:29:41.:29:43.

Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next

:29:44.:29:53.

government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that

:29:54.:29:56.

the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them

:29:57.:29:59.

think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.

:30:00.:30:03.

Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly

:30:04.:30:09.

representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member

:30:10.:30:13.

of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here

:30:14.:30:15.

to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.

:30:16.:30:20.

Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it

:30:21.:30:25.

should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help

:30:26.:30:29.

create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories

:30:30.:30:34.

we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have

:30:35.:30:39.

trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees

:30:40.:30:43.

to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or

:30:44.:30:47.

bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the

:30:48.:30:51.

tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's

:30:52.:30:58.

turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional

:30:59.:31:02.

conversation where you have to discuss whether English people

:31:03.:31:05.

voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions

:31:06.:31:09.

and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,

:31:10.:31:12.

we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying

:31:13.:31:21.

rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is

:31:22.:31:26.

the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where

:31:27.:31:29.

people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers

:31:30.:31:32.

talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point

:31:33.:31:38.

you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to

:31:39.:31:43.

vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you

:31:44.:31:47.

see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is

:31:48.:31:52.

an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so

:31:53.:31:55.

simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British

:31:56.:31:58.

constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of

:31:59.:32:05.

Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the

:32:06.:32:10.

transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In

:32:11.:32:14.

Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote

:32:15.:32:17.

on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different

:32:18.:32:21.

votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not

:32:22.:32:25.

necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in

:32:26.:32:28.

Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I

:32:29.:32:33.

think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy

:32:34.:32:38.

in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,

:32:39.:32:42.

Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to

:32:43.:32:45.

now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue

:32:46.:32:50.

of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in

:32:51.:32:54.

bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.

:32:55.:32:58.

What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give

:32:59.:33:02.

you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a

:33:03.:33:07.

rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and

:33:08.:33:10.

there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has

:33:11.:33:17.

vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell

:33:18.:33:20.

us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme

:33:21.:33:25.

right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on

:33:26.:33:28.

tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.

:33:29.:33:32.

Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable

:33:33.:33:37.

future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending

:33:38.:33:41.

for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many

:33:42.:33:45.

of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said

:33:46.:33:51.

that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing

:33:52.:33:53.

out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has

:33:54.:33:57.

done which is having already deprived communities having money

:33:58.:33:59.

taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We

:34:00.:34:04.

accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?

:34:05.:34:10.

There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to

:34:11.:34:15.

do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm

:34:16.:34:21.

not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --

:34:22.:34:24.

government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which

:34:25.:34:31.

is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in

:34:32.:34:35.

Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why is that fair Labour politician? We

:34:36.:34:40.

have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,

:34:41.:34:44.

you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure

:34:45.:34:47.

necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this

:34:48.:34:52.

debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I

:34:53.:34:56.

want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The

:34:57.:35:00.

unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of

:35:01.:35:05.

the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up

:35:06.:35:07.

different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against

:35:08.:35:11.

what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we

:35:12.:35:14.

shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the

:35:15.:35:18.

minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which

:35:19.:35:24.

would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five

:35:25.:35:28.

years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back

:35:29.:35:36.

in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I

:35:37.:35:42.

can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we

:35:43.:35:47.

have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if

:35:48.:35:50.

people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income

:35:51.:35:54.

tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in

:35:55.:35:58.

tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm

:35:59.:36:02.

not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid

:36:03.:36:07.

workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the

:36:08.:36:11.

payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they

:36:12.:36:16.

get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our

:36:17.:36:21.

proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at

:36:22.:36:24.

the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep I

:36:25.:36:33.

cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if

:36:34.:36:37.

you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest

:36:38.:36:40.

paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down

:36:41.:36:43.

this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 %

:36:44.:36:50.

and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I

:36:51.:36:54.

don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just

:36:55.:36:59.

don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out

:37:00.:37:04.

policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies

:37:05.:37:07.

before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their

:37:08.:37:10.

pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are

:37:11.:37:13.

also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as

:37:14.:37:17.

well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering

:37:18.:37:21.

great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge

:37:22.:37:24.

number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it.

:37:25.:37:28.

The status quo is not an option And even joining me. Twice in three

:37:29.:37:32.

days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,

:37:33.:37:35.

not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're

:37:36.:37:37.

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland

:37:38.:37:40.

who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:41.:37:43.

we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing

:37:44.:37:48.

Labour as their conference starts First though,

:37:49.:37:50.

the Sunday Politics where you are. And we're joined today,

:37:51.:38:00.

if not from Scotland itself, then at least by two MPs whose

:38:01.:38:07.

constituencies are about as close to In our part of this sceptred isle,

:38:08.:38:11.

that is. Karen Bradley,

:38:12.:38:16.

Conservative MP for Staffordshire Moorlands, is a Home Office Minister

:38:17.:38:18.

battling against organised crime. Rob Flello is the Labour MP

:38:19.:38:24.

for Stoke South. I'm never quite sure if

:38:25.:38:26.

Stoke is in Staffordshire. It is in Staffordshire. Nevdr before

:38:27.:38:42.

can RMP 's of all main parthes have been so pleased to get the `nswer

:38:43.:38:44.

no. The Scottish referendum restlt

:38:45.:38:46.

was celebrated And it came

:38:47.:38:48.

as a particular relief for one distinguished son of Gl`sgow,

:38:49.:38:51.

now based in the Black Country, who travelled north of the borddr last

:38:52.:38:54.

weekend in support the eventual The UK is a very special cotntry

:38:55.:38:56.

and I would be heartbroken to see I think in the slogan of thd No

:38:57.:39:04.

campaign, we are Better Togdther. Their shared history both through

:39:05.:39:11.

defence, economies, our health service, our pensions,

:39:12.:39:15.

it is too valuable and all that plus our cultural influence throtghout

:39:16.:39:20.

the world, it is too valuable The overall result is one thing all

:39:21.:39:37.

main parties can agree on, but no sewer was that out then Owen

:39:38.:39:45.

Paterson a Tory backbencher, reading fire that party leaders including

:39:46.:39:50.

David Cameron or offering more to Scotland but his giddy joints were

:39:51.:39:54.

having to foot the bill for it. Let's welcome the result, the fact

:39:55.:39:57.

we are still great is fantastic and I am delighted that the Scottish

:39:58.:40:02.

people decided to stay part of the union. We do now need to look at the

:40:03.:40:07.

constitutional arrangements for England because my voters whll want

:40:08.:40:11.

to make sure their voices are heard and they are `` their

:40:12.:40:17.

representatives make the decision for them. Rob, what is your answer

:40:18.:40:22.

to the English question, because we have been hearing about English MPs,

:40:23.:40:28.

something that commands poptlar support and your party leaddr looks

:40:29.:40:32.

in danger of being put on the wrong side of the argument. I also welcome

:40:33.:40:38.

the right decision from Scotland. We would be sitting here in ch`os if it

:40:39.:40:44.

had gone the other way, so H plead Scotland voted to stay in, but in

:40:45.:40:48.

terms of your point about the West Lothian question, what is ilportant

:40:49.:40:54.

for my cursor joints is not so much West Lothian as messed `` Wdst mids

:40:55.:41:00.

that the West Midlands, this took in trench question, because we need a

:41:01.:41:07.

proper debate about what thd convention, the Constitution should

:41:08.:41:08.

look like and we need that debate. So one simple answer from Scotland

:41:09.:41:13.

poses any number of questions How exactly do you

:41:14.:41:16.

"re`empower the great cities", Give more collective or indhvidual

:41:17.:41:18.

clout to local councils, perhaps? The Labour leader of one

:41:19.:41:23.

of our biggest authorities `lso now chairs the powerful organis`tion

:41:24.:41:26.

representing over 400 counchls What, I wondered, was his mdssage

:41:27.:41:29.

to the main party leaders? The message is a consistent one

:41:30.:41:36.

that England needs a fairer deal The formula on which the resources

:41:37.:41:39.

are allocated between different nations in the UK is out of date

:41:40.:41:45.

and needs revising or replacing In what way exactly is

:41:46.:41:51.

the present arrangement unf`ir? It is unfair because at

:41:52.:41:54.

the moment it doesn't address need. We have a situation where

:41:55.:42:01.

for example the amount of money that goes to peopld in

:42:02.:42:04.

Dundee is bigger then what goes to Dudley, and a lot of that is raised

:42:05.:42:09.

by people who pay taxes in Dudley, Are you saying there should be tax

:42:10.:42:13.

variant powers in the West Lidlands? The fundamental point is

:42:14.:42:23.

that local authorities need They need greater freedom over their

:42:24.:42:32.

own ability to raise their own council tax and also business taxes,

:42:33.:42:40.

and they also need to be given greater freedom to raise money

:42:41.:42:45.

independently via arrangements with the city

:42:46.:42:47.

and other financial institutions because only by that will wd be able

:42:48.:42:49.

to compete internationally. You're saying the West Midl`nds

:42:50.:42:51.

should be more independent Absolutely, because what we have

:42:52.:42:54.

at the present is that Engl`nd is We have a colonial relationship with

:42:55.:43:01.

Westminster, which is unaccdptable. All I am asking for is that we go

:43:02.:43:09.

back to where we used to be when Joseph Chamberlain ran Birmhngham,

:43:10.:43:13.

where we could just get on with it. The Local Government Associ`tion

:43:14.:43:17.

is a powerful body. How much leverage does this give you

:43:18.:43:20.

with political parties going We have a massive amount

:43:21.:43:24.

of leverage because with a general election you have to win

:43:25.:43:29.

England, and recently the rdferendum Someone needs to speak up

:43:30.:43:32.

for England and if we don't have a recipe that

:43:33.:43:39.

satisfies people in England, people I have a fear that Scotland

:43:40.:43:43.

will get sorted, then they will sort out Wales and then thex

:43:44.:43:49.

will forget about England. We also need a new opportunhty

:43:50.:43:52.

for raising new ways of income. Councillor David Sparkes. Rob, you

:43:53.:44:09.

are a former member of Birmhngham City Council. You view with sympathy

:44:10.:44:14.

his point that if you give local authorities more control of the

:44:15.:44:17.

purse strings, you get more interest in local elections? My concdrn is

:44:18.:44:23.

that what we have seen is a devolution of powers and

:44:24.:44:29.

responsibilities to look `` to local authorities but in Stoke`on`Trent we

:44:30.:44:32.

have seen huge cuts to the loney those local authorities havd. My

:44:33.:44:37.

concern is that it is all vdry well giving power to raise finances but

:44:38.:44:41.

if your local area cannot ststain high taxation, all you are doing is

:44:42.:44:48.

locking in the differential between a wealthy city and a poor stburb.

:44:49.:44:53.

What is your answer to that? We hear about the wealthy areas and less

:44:54.:44:58.

wealthy haters like Wolverh`mpton and Walsall. Under successive

:44:59.:45:05.

governments. They think we have been looking at is putting more business

:45:06.:45:08.

rates into the hands of loc`l authorities, so instead of

:45:09.:45:13.

collecting witness rates, and then them coming back to local

:45:14.:45:17.

authorities, being able to keep those business rates and those sort

:45:18.:45:21.

of incentives and tax`raising powers help regenerate local areas. But

:45:22.:45:28.

that doesn't work. If you h`ve somewhere like Westminster where

:45:29.:45:30.

they can raise huge amounts of witness rates, somewhere whdre you

:45:31.:45:36.

cannot you don't lock it in, so it is all very well giving up power but

:45:37.:45:42.

they need to raise the monex. What about the point about being free to

:45:43.:45:45.

go into the city to bring more boring? It is the same problem

:45:46.:45:50.

because if you cannot raise more money because you were in a poor

:45:51.:45:56.

area, you have the same problem In Staffordshire moorlands, we are

:45:57.:46:01.

quite distant from Birmingh`m, closer to Nottingham so if xou

:46:02.:46:05.

regionalise things and focus it on Birmingham, you deprived ardas like

:46:06.:46:08.

ours. We need the right settlement for each area. And on that same

:46:09.:46:14.

point, David Cameron said wd must re`empower bird great cities like

:46:15.:46:19.

Birmingham and then there w`s a chorus of disappointment from the

:46:20.:46:23.

counties, or what about us? So this is how you get a simple answer from

:46:24.:46:28.

Scotland and then the difficulty comes word you try to find

:46:29.:46:32.

solutions. We need to see English votes on English matters and the

:46:33.:46:37.

audit formula become less ilportant as Scotland gets more tax`r`ising

:46:38.:46:42.

powers. The Barnett formula looks like a subsidy for Scotland, it

:46:43.:46:47.

looks like a political fix. We have to honour commitments made to the

:46:48.:46:50.

people of Scotland because `nything less would be appalling, but we need

:46:51.:46:57.

a mature, considerate consideration of what our competition shotld look

:46:58.:47:03.

like for the future of the TK. Can we do this at the place Davhd

:47:04.:47:07.

Cameron is suggesting in a latter of months? I think English votds on

:47:08.:47:13.

English matters is a simple idea and the suggestion you can stop MPs in

:47:14.:47:20.

Westminster voting. It is not a simple matter. That may well be a

:47:21.:47:25.

solution but you have to look at this all around and say Scotland has

:47:26.:47:30.

made the right decision to stay in the UK but we now need to look at

:47:31.:47:34.

what is right for England, for the regions and districts, we nded

:47:35.:47:40.

proper consideration. David Sparkes said he would like authorithes like

:47:41.:47:46.

Birmingham to be able to run their affairs like Joe Chamberlain did,

:47:47.:47:50.

with rate`capping for example. Rate`capping had not been invented

:47:51.:47:57.

when he had so much freedom. In terms of what happened back in his

:47:58.:48:03.

day, the world is different. We now need to have a settlement for the

:48:04.:48:07.

whole UK that takes into account the views of everyone. Is England the

:48:08.:48:11.

last bastions of the British Empire? I don't think it is a

:48:12.:48:18.

colony. Councils are free to set the council tax they want but they have

:48:19.:48:22.

to ask local people if they are happy with that rate, and I think

:48:23.:48:27.

that is right, that gives the voice back to the people so they have

:48:28.:48:34.

their say. It is tying their hands. Successive governments have

:48:35.:48:37.

concentrated more power at Westminster. I am not sure H agree

:48:38.:48:47.

but there has been devolution to local authorities but no fun thing

:48:48.:48:51.

that mattered at, funding w`s taken away so they are asked to do more

:48:52.:48:55.

with less. You will be in government soon? And hopefully do something

:48:56.:49:01.

about it. I will be trying to make sure he is not, but we do h`ve the

:49:02.:49:07.

ability for local people to make those decisions, so the mord power

:49:08.:49:09.

we put in their hands the bdtter. Because we're off to Uxcestdr `

:49:10.:49:12.

population 150,000 It's the vision for a new

:49:13.:49:15.

generation of "garden cities". On the real`life list of pl`ces

:49:16.:49:23.

deemed suitable for the tre`tment are Gloucester, Cheltenham,

:49:24.:49:25.

Worcester, Stratford, Rugby, Shrewsbury and Stafford, as our BBC

:49:26.:49:29.

Coventry and Warwickshire Political It was the first of its kind

:49:30.:49:32.

in the world. Letchworth Garden City, founded in

:49:33.:49:40.

1903 by this man, Ebenezer Howard. His unique idea was to blend

:49:41.:49:44.

the best of town and countrx life It's an idea that's making ` return

:49:45.:49:49.

with seven locations across the Midlands being singled out `s

:49:50.:49:52.

potential garden cities. We have central common, gredn spaces

:49:53.:49:59.

throughout the town, and wh`t's called the greenway, which dnvelops

:50:00.:50:03.

the town and is publicly accessible, leading onto the countrysidd, so it

:50:04.:50:08.

is really important because I think we all enjoy open spaces but planned

:50:09.:50:11.

open spaces could be hugely So, green boulevards, quiet streets.

:50:12.:50:16.

What's not to like? Who wouldn't want to live

:50:17.:50:22.

in a garden city? Billed as the environmentally

:50:23.:50:26.

friendly solution to building more houses, there was fierce opposition

:50:27.:50:32.

in Warwickshire when one was So could garden cities be

:50:33.:50:35.

the answer here? We have taken way more

:50:36.:50:40.

houses than we need to. No, because we already have

:50:41.:50:46.

a big development Stratford`on`Avon has just signed

:50:47.:50:49.

off on its local plan to build 10,800 new homes

:50:50.:50:55.

in the district by 2031. Its leader told me there's no

:50:56.:50:58.

appetite for a garden city here Part of our policy is to put

:50:59.:51:03.

something much smaller than a garden city near to the JLR

:51:04.:51:08.

factory, and that has met whth huge public reaction against it, despite

:51:09.:51:13.

the fact that the promoters of the scheme say they would build that

:51:14.:51:19.

on garden city principles. But this was the message to Straford

:51:20.:51:25.

from Letchworth Garden City. If you do anything half bakdd

:51:26.:51:31.

and try to compromise, It is important people have a big

:51:32.:51:36.

vision, big plans and try to create great places because new development

:51:37.:51:42.

doesn't have to be bland, it can be exciting as long as we capttre that

:51:43.:51:45.

imagination and have that vhsion so many council leaders have,

:51:46.:51:49.

that would be my recommendation So, will this old idea be rdborn or

:51:50.:51:55.

will it be dismissed as a ghmmick? As another threat to

:51:56.:51:59.

the green belt from developdrs? Either way, the question relains `

:52:00.:52:03.

what's the best way to solvd And we are also joined here today

:52:04.:52:05.

by the 21st century's answer to He's the winner of the ?250,000

:52:06.:52:14.

Wolfson Economics Prize, which I'm told is ranked second only

:52:15.:52:22.

to the Nobel Prize, and the man who's suggested a new gener`tion

:52:23.:52:27.

of garden cities could be p`rt of Congratulations. Thank you. Is this

:52:28.:52:43.

intended as a serious contrhbution to the debate about the housing

:52:44.:52:49.

crisis or just an eye`catchhng sound bite? There is agreement we need

:52:50.:52:55.

more houses in this country, we are under providing and it may not look

:52:56.:53:00.

that way in Stratford on Avon but nationally we need to do th`t. A lot

:53:01.:53:06.

of that could go into cities like Birmingham and Wolverhampton but not

:53:07.:53:12.

all. You talk about the gredn belt and as far as I can see for

:53:13.:53:16.

politicians, it is a rail lhne and you mention it in this contdxt at

:53:17.:53:23.

your peril. I am not a politician, if you are you need to have caution.

:53:24.:53:30.

That is why the debate needs to happen on a national level. One

:53:31.:53:35.

reason for the competition hs to generate that debated and gdt people

:53:36.:53:38.

thinking about where it is best to put houses. At the moment they go in

:53:39.:53:43.

the least attractive field `round every village, we are saying do not

:53:44.:53:48.

do that, put them in a propdr development like an Edgbaston rather

:53:49.:53:53.

than pushing them around and annoying every village, we `re

:53:54.:53:59.

saying put them in a single place. Our politicians sympathetic? If seen

:54:00.:54:04.

reports that you and George Osborne talk to each other. What is the real

:54:05.:54:10.

politics of this? I don't t`lk to George Osborne directly, but

:54:11.:54:15.

politicians are looking for an answer. They see potential hn the

:54:16.:54:21.

garden city because polling shows garden cities are popular as ideas,

:54:22.:54:25.

somewhere else is what people are saying. And they are not a pillar in

:54:26.:54:32.

South Warwickshire, we saw the idea of a possible development and people

:54:33.:54:38.

are up in arms. 75% of people polled said they were a good thing, if

:54:39.:54:43.

given a choice where to put the housing, faceless suburbs or

:54:44.:54:46.

anywhere else, it is how to engage that enable political process which

:54:47.:54:52.

is difficult. Karen, what is your view of this? How about a g`rden

:54:53.:54:59.

city in the Mormons? We need a garden city where people ard happy

:55:00.:55:04.

with it. I have seen in the peatlands that local parishds have

:55:05.:55:07.

been able to contribute us do what housing needs they have two keep

:55:08.:55:12.

villages alive. Would you wdlcome it? People talk about that hn

:55:13.:55:16.

principle but not when it comes to their backyard. The Mormons is an

:55:17.:55:21.

unusual case because we are partly the current national park, but I

:55:22.:55:29.

think the right housing in the right areas could be welcome, and planning

:55:30.:55:35.

amenities makes a differencd. I know does all the places on David's list

:55:36.:55:40.

happened to be conservative areas. Shouldn't you pitch for Stoke to be

:55:41.:55:44.

added to this? Sort of, is ly answer. The reality with

:55:45.:55:50.

Stoke`on`Trent is that therd is role into green fields around thd city

:55:51.:55:56.

which is completely wrong. There are huge amounts of Brownfield land in

:55:57.:56:00.

Stoke`on`Trent that need to be built on. When that is exhausted, we then

:56:01.:56:06.

need a proper plan approach, but not yet, we have to exhaust what we

:56:07.:56:11.

have. Absolutely right for Stoke`on`Trent, and not all the

:56:12.:56:16.

places, Oxford is Labour`controlled, but there are certain places like

:56:17.:56:20.

Oxford and Wester where there isn't scope to expand. They are popular

:56:21.:56:27.

places, why build it unpopular places when it is less dangdrous

:56:28.:56:30.

than we should be building hn popular places, and if you plan

:56:31.:56:35.

properly and design beautiftl housing you could maybe get over

:56:36.:56:40.

some objection. Let me raisd some criticisms, that it would m`ke an

:56:41.:56:44.

appreciable difference to affordable housing, just give city slickers

:56:45.:56:52.

another option, and also th`t you tack on small developments rather

:56:53.:56:57.

than this one size fits all idea? In Germany, look at how they do

:56:58.:57:01.

extensions, there are crimes, open space, proper provision, but with

:57:02.:57:08.

little X `` estates you cannot do that, so you work with scald, the

:57:09.:57:13.

value of the land which Ebenezer Howard intended to be spent on the

:57:14.:57:20.

quality, but now it goes to the farmer. If you can spend th`t on the

:57:21.:57:25.

place you get up audible hotsing and get the money to do that, provide

:57:26.:57:29.

facilities and create attractive places. Fascinating. We will see

:57:30.:57:35.

what happens. Thank you all very much.

:57:36.:57:38.

Now our regular round`up of the political week

:57:39.:57:40.

It's brought to us today by Charmaine Burton,

:57:41.:57:43.

presenter of the Different @ngles show on Birmingham's New Stxle

:57:44.:57:46.

The West Midlands MEP Nikki Sinclaire appeared before Bhrmingham

:57:47.:57:52.

magistrates on charges of money laundering

:57:53.:57:55.

Herefordshire Council is adding its name to a court petition calling

:57:56.:58:02.

The council is owed ?65,000 by the non`league club.

:58:03.:58:09.

Another 6000 jobs are to go at Birmingham City Council on top

:58:10.:58:13.

The council says it's the equivalent to the closure

:58:14.:58:18.

It's a stark figure and I've not taken any pleasure

:58:19.:58:25.

Protestors marched to demonstrate against proposals to

:58:26.:58:30.

Some services are due to move to the University Hospital of

:58:31.:58:36.

Thousands of jobs are at risk after Newcastle`under`Lyme`based

:58:37.:58:42.

The company was founded by Staffordshire entreprenetr

:58:43.:58:48.

But generally there's an improving picture on jobs.

:58:49.:58:57.

The latest figures show unelployment in the West Midlands has dipped

:58:58.:58:59.

below 200,000 for the first time since the economic crash.

:59:00.:59:08.

So that is welcome but isn't part of that picture that more of them are

:59:09.:59:17.

low paid, temporary contracts, so large jobs are being done down? I

:59:18.:59:22.

dispute that, we have good figures in the Mormons. But the moorlands

:59:23.:59:31.

isn't the complete picture. The jobs being created by the right jobs for

:59:32.:59:36.

those people and that he put IME taking new jobs are excited and

:59:37.:59:39.

interested in them, and my lessage to people worried about this

:59:40.:59:46.

company, I am pleased there is some talk of rescue from Vodafond but I

:59:47.:59:50.

want to see support for the people affected. I disagree, I think there

:59:51.:59:58.

are too many people on minilum wage zero hours contract jobs whdre they

:59:59.:00:03.

have to pay to get to works if their contract requires them to go from

:00:04.:00:07.

location to location, they have to fund it themselves, provide their

:00:08.:00:11.

own uniform and there is a fundamental problem with jobs that

:00:12.:00:16.

are being treated. I welcomd every job that this is too late, they

:00:17.:00:20.

should have happened three xears ago and they are not quality jobs, which

:00:21.:00:22.

we need to see. My thanks to Karen Bradley `nd

:00:23.:00:26.

Rob Flello. I'll be heading up to Manchdster

:00:27.:00:28.

for the Labour Party conferdnce where I'll be interviewing

:00:29.:00:31.

the party leader Ed Miliband. That will be on Midlands Today

:00:32.:00:33.

on Wednesday evening at 6:30pm And on next Sunday's progralme I'll

:00:34.:00:36.

be talking to the Prime Minister David Cameron

:00:37.:00:39.

at the start of the Conserv`tive And UKIP gather in Doncaster,

:00:40.:00:41.

so we'll also be hearing But this is where we, in our part

:00:42.:00:48.

of our still`United Kingdom, the Conservative mayor's policy No

:00:49.:00:58.

more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.

:00:59.:01:06.

Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined

:01:07.:01:08.

by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.

:01:09.:01:12.

I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.

:01:13.:01:17.

In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally

:01:18.:01:19.

the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.

:01:20.:01:22.

He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve

:01:23.:01:25.

Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish

:01:26.:01:37.

votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,

:01:38.:01:40.

why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament

:01:41.:01:45.

in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I

:01:46.:01:49.

certainly don't agree with that I campaign for powers to be given to

:01:50.:01:53.

the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?

:01:54.:01:56.

Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to

:01:57.:02:01.

Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a

:02:02.:02:09.

Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the

:02:10.:02:12.

alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and

:02:13.:02:17.

everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was

:02:18.:02:23.

my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year

:02:24.:02:29.

plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to

:02:30.:02:33.

turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if

:02:34.:02:37.

that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can

:02:38.:02:42.

get reform in a more federal structure, and even English

:02:43.:02:46.

parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the

:02:47.:02:49.

Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite

:02:50.:02:54.

radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in

:02:55.:02:58.

the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's

:02:59.:03:05.

assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they

:03:06.:03:08.

remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but

:03:09.:03:13.

don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their

:03:14.:03:18.

favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come

:03:19.:03:21.

up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page

:03:22.:03:28.

of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the

:03:29.:03:30.

time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you

:03:31.:03:34.

want real protection in England vote Conservative, and if you want

:03:35.:03:38.

Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is

:03:39.:03:42.

scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the

:03:43.:03:46.

constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same

:03:47.:03:50.

with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a

:03:51.:03:54.

fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years

:03:55.:03:58.

ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't

:03:59.:04:02.

mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are

:04:03.:04:08.

promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout

:04:09.:04:13.

of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The

:04:14.:04:18.

turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get

:04:19.:04:21.

people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation

:04:22.:04:25.

in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what

:04:26.:04:28.

you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they

:04:29.:04:33.

were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is

:04:34.:04:36.

about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in

:04:37.:04:39.

the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and

:04:40.:04:43.

you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,

:04:44.:04:47.

but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of

:04:48.:04:50.

power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.

:04:51.:04:54.

They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with

:04:55.:04:59.

what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up

:05:00.:05:03.

with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of

:05:04.:05:07.

city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a

:05:08.:05:11.

democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of

:05:12.:05:14.

Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of

:05:15.:05:19.

democratic link with the people I live in whole, and it stops on the

:05:20.:05:24.

boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from

:05:25.:05:29.

Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,

:05:30.:05:33.

and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city

:05:34.:05:37.

regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal

:05:38.:05:40.

structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with

:05:41.:05:43.

Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I

:05:44.:05:48.

believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options

:05:49.:05:52.

in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do

:05:53.:05:56.

in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will

:05:57.:05:59.

happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.

:06:00.:06:03.

You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,

:06:04.:06:07.

not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a

:06:08.:06:12.

separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English

:06:13.:06:17.

if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of

:06:18.:06:21.

Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put

:06:22.:06:25.

the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking

:06:26.:06:30.

about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do

:06:31.:06:33.

with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.

:06:34.:06:38.

Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.

:06:39.:06:41.

Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether

:06:42.:06:46.

it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the

:06:47.:06:49.

Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign

:06:50.:06:56.

lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to

:06:57.:07:00.

something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost

:07:01.:07:04.

Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to

:07:05.:07:09.

what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its

:07:10.:07:12.

different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about

:07:13.:07:17.

decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been

:07:18.:07:26.

thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is

:07:27.:07:29.

not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember

:07:30.:07:33.

covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping

:07:34.:07:38.

speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it

:07:39.:07:41.

was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not

:07:42.:07:45.

independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,

:07:46.:07:49.

an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that

:07:50.:07:53.

Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.

:07:54.:08:02.

In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on

:08:03.:08:09.

with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for

:08:10.:08:14.

30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I

:08:15.:08:17.

support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and

:08:18.:08:21.

make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources

:08:22.:08:25.

and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant

:08:26.:08:31.

today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in

:08:32.:08:35.

Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I

:08:36.:08:43.

can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What

:08:44.:08:50.

do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering

:08:51.:08:57.

about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,

:08:58.:09:00.

and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he

:09:01.:09:07.

started off on the minimum wage You are trying to deal with those left

:09:08.:09:12.

behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National

:09:13.:09:15.

Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved If

:09:16.:09:18.

you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you

:09:19.:09:22.

haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the

:09:23.:09:28.

priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that

:09:29.:09:31.

you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or

:09:32.:09:34.

paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives

:09:35.:09:40.

?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary

:09:41.:09:45.

people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the

:09:46.:09:48.

north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more

:09:49.:09:51.

to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably

:09:52.:09:56.

hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission

:09:57.:10:00.

coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I

:10:01.:10:06.

say, I know what we do, housing health, the people. That is our

:10:07.:10:10.

language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I

:10:11.:10:14.

think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the

:10:15.:10:18.

same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they

:10:19.:10:22.

think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks

:10:23.:10:27.

like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch

:10:28.:10:32.

started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the

:10:33.:10:38.

sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how

:10:39.:10:41.

long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.

:10:42.:10:48.

-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and

:10:49.:10:51.

people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to

:10:52.:10:54.

the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is

:10:55.:11:01.

20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear

:11:02.:11:06.

anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it

:11:07.:11:11.

sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion

:11:12.:11:16.

of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why

:11:17.:11:23.

did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,

:11:24.:11:26.

but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a

:11:27.:11:33.

hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an

:11:34.:11:37.

awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.

:11:38.:11:41.

What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution

:11:42.:11:44.

and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public

:11:45.:11:49.

sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record

:11:50.:11:52.

straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the

:11:53.:11:56.

future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to

:11:57.:11:59.

change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.

:12:00.:12:06.

Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates you

:12:07.:12:10.

were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite

:12:11.:12:14.

to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That

:12:15.:12:25.

is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not

:12:26.:12:27.

strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at

:12:28.:12:44.

a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,

:12:45.:12:49.

I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you

:12:50.:12:54.

back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for

:12:55.:12:59.

today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.

:13:00.:13:01.

my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily

:13:02.:13:06.

11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by

:13:07.:13:10.

We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for

:13:11.:13:15.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:16.:13:23.

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