20/11/2016 Sunday Politics West Midlands

Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving

the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?

Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime

The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending

on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be

And in the Midlands: 18 days in the job.

Labour expelled their Milit`nt Tendency three decades ago.

Now they want Jeremy Corbyn to let them back in.

in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or

is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?

And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing

the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative

dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott

and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.

First this morning - Theresa May has said

"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -

who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum

Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching

the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet

Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to

deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,

100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to

making a success of Brexit for the country.

We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then

have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity

coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we

face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind

when you talk about negativity the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,

for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving

membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what

we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat

negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and

the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards

both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position

clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to

review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what

you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards

membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure

British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new

trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at

Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house

this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.

And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on

what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union

at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs

union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and

other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are

preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing

carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we

have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do

you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is

not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the

moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we

cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement

with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.

Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We

still want to trade with the EU and I think we can have a free trade

agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do

with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave

the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the

most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime

Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be

right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have

a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a

binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the

Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I

am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had

said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the

constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not

securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,

we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that

if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade

deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do

you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with

substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access

to the single market, that goods going from this country to the

single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject

to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost

business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement

between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,

but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on

our own tariffs once we've left we can't just export again willy-nilly

to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do

that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we

agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,

we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which

sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our

industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU

but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European

Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a %

tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and

goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of

the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.

Every bottle of Japanese whisky they will have to work out the rules

of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for

50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of

free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view

Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could

not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is

messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a

campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is

this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other

side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that

the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only

through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem

to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through

amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to

hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the

Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs

union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in

the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good

faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a

Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,

but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel

has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.

Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since

the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms

of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single

market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and

services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they

can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We

saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they

hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into

a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going

to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask

for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you

want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting

it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is

150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we

have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about

what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.

Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU

also means quitting the

Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free

movement of goods, services, capital and people.

They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting

politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during

Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost

certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.

When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay

"No, we should be outside the Single Market."

And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael

Gove was absolutely right to say the UK

They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before

the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the

Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving

the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,

once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually

And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said

that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some

But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what

To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're

joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave

campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many

were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was

made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12

statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the

referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.

Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian

model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went

out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading

arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the

Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade

agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the

12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself

when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The

Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters

They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.

But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should

stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked

about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from

Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would

have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back

to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point

stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.

Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave

movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place

in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave

campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have

highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners

over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments

accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full

thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade

agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.

There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the

clip you used on Owen Paterson first.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

Only a madman would actually leave the market.

It's not the EU which is

a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.

It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on

I mean, are we really suggesting that the

economy in the world is not going to come to come

to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?

Are we going to be like Sudan and North

It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a

What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that

we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country

in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our

trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David

Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box

recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the

Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of

course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't

think he was about axis, he is talking

about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks

about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap

off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's

the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and

Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,

the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and

tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the

views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.

When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that

it might be initially attractive for some business people.

So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in

the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian

option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive

for some business people. But then again for voters

who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,

they will be very concerned that it allows free movement

of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.

He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real

problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.

But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them

accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what

we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying

the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It

might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free

movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are

saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are

distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.

On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area

This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t

run. There is absolutely

nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving

the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part

of the European Economic Area and we should use our

membership of the EEA as a holding position from which

we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export

market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,

if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we

should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA

as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip

is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a

distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a

definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,

for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go

on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he

does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't

let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he

wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would

be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea

now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the

Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all

had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the

full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out

there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave

campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout

the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market

is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the

montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime

Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being

categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave

membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you

understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to

leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other

promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT

cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of

any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan

has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You

spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting

and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen

this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is

perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have

a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.

That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to

stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag

us out of our biggest trading partner.

Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up

their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week

in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest

this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -

stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from

farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,

split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're

having their second Watch as the alpha male,

the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,

the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha

female Diane James. The European Parliament

in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible

future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,

has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague

during a meeting. A few days later he is

out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my

application to become I'm actually withdrawing

myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party

I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document

suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political

campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes

over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,

a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for

disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,

an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side

as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast

in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told

that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,

a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance

to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated

passionate supporters who feel like they're not really

being listened to and are not even Typically what happens

is they just basically sit there until six months before

a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out

and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel

there is not an adequate flow of communication

up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in

any hustings? He left a hustings saying

the contest was an establishment coronation and has

made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty

for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear

will amongst the offences should be dealt with

decisively. But again, on an issue like that,

that is something that Our members are not

going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that

I would have any authority to have the say and determine

the future What method would you use

for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could

be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online

poll about whether you use the electric chair,

or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made

in favour of This is such a small aspect

of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media

they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant

details. This is one vote that

the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do

in this party is to revolutionise the democratic

process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should

be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip

would win at Meanwhile, in New York,

on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage

of the President-elect, a man he has described as

a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some

in this leadership contest. There are also elections

to the party's National Executive Committee, a body

that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two

of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -

Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving

each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be

the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.

Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,

forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it

really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win

seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we

need to attract more women, more ethnic

minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their

party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my

leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical

party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne

Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.

I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and

prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I

am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done

every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,

whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past

six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour

constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of

working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet

are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a

mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to

realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get

together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles

within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and

whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion

polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on

the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a

grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in

the party as well and also a background that I think means I can

help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity

faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.

There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee

going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have

ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I

think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more

open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive

Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to

be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better

communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a

clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,

Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person

who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show

you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with

President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's

decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr

Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.

I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is

President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the

campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,

pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put

the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne

Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I

said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The

better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is

quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr

Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have

that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not

out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is

according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let

me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself

in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country

ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in

2020. The other thing your leader has in

common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do

you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and

Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is

pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle

East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to

bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the

conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American

line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is

affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these

people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial

breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage

unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do

you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I

was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,

and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were

already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth

that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control

immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering

voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it

was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed

to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.

People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip

shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you

different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone

for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from

the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns

with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa

into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,

particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I

want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the

low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national

anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks

anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John

McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for

working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.

It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I

first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic

opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at

me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have

seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death

penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more

money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to

fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our

manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come

from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being

taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the

money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because

that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on

management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,

foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership

fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It

cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are

not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you

get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.

Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25

million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer

than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away

from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?

Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.

Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.

Labour expelled its Militant Tendency 30 years ago,

including the former Coventry MP Dave Nellist.

Now he's one of five Midlanders among 75 socialists who want

Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Partx to have them back.

I'll be asking the former L`bour transport minister David Jalieson,

better known now as the West Midlands Police Commissioner,

and Mike Wood, elected last year as the Conservative MP for the key

Good to have you both with us here today.

And we'll also be be finding out what the lower pound means,

after that Brexit vote, for economic prospects

here in our part of the country But we begin with the polithcal

Despite the deafening sound of political and business ldaders

eating their words about Donald Trump, from one

Birmingham Labour MP and Shadow Minister comes no

Jack Dromey said back in January Mr Trump should be

banned from Britain, just as he wanted Muslims to be

Mr Dromey's certainly not modifying his opinions.

Donald Trump is a loathsome xenophobe, who divides.

But he won because he spoke to those with a raft of discontents.

And we ignore the voice of those who feel left behind at our peril.

This is a crisis for liberal democracy - America,

We're living through dangerous times.

I think the key point that Jack Dromey is worrying abott..

As you need no reminder, Mike, we live in a complex, diverse,

multicultural community, and he feels that the rhetoric

from Donald Trump both emboldens the English Defence League `nd also

potentially incites support among those who may be tempted

to side with the so-called Islamic State on the other side

I'm not going to pretend that Trump would have

been my choice of candidate but of course, he was chosen

as the candidate by the Reptblican party, then elected by the @merican

Now, of course, the special relationship between Britain

and the United States is extremely strong and so I think all of us have

to hope that as president, he governs rather more senshbly

than some people fear and that, as president, he behaves rather more

in tune with the way he's spoken since the election,

which has been much more conciliatory, much more unifying,

rather than some of the divhsive and incendiary comments he lade

Just thinking about that colmunity cohesion aspect, that's

something of course, that the police experiences

And that's something that is very high on my agenda,

keeping our communities togdther and keeping people working together.

The rhetoric that we're seehng generally has had

an influence, I would have thought?

Just after Brexit, there was a peak in hate crime and I hope th`t

But I think what's interesthng about this already is that

Yes, he got elected on really quite extreme views on building a wall

between Mexico and America, views about putting Clinton

rid of it. Within days, the ink is hardly dry on the ballot papers

and he's already seriously rolling back from many of those polhcies.

That, of course, will have `n impact on the electorate in Americ`.

For the moment, thank you very much both indeed.

They clocked up over a thousand years of Labour membership

between them, only to be kicked out of the party.

The purge of Militant followed years of bitter in-fighting in thd early

'80s between the hard left and the so-called moderates.

Among those shown the door was the former Coventry MP Dave Nellist.

Now he's one of 75 expelled socialists applying

Our political reporter Kathryn Stranczyszyn explains why.

A long ago war of ideology, bitterly fought.

The Militant is standing candidates against the Labour Party.

I think they have a bloody cheek, anyone who's in the Militant,

to think they can demand thd right to remain in our party.

The Labour Party in the 1970s and 1980s was a battle ground

between the left and the hard left, the party within a party,

Militant, whose members werd denounced by Labour MPs at the time.

Not the Workers' Revolution`ry Party, nor the militant Trots.

Madam Chairman, the baying of the beast betrays its prdsence.

Eventually, it reached a pahnful crescendo,

with hundreds of Militant members kicked out.

Enthusiasm's almost a criminal offence now in the party.

We're not allowed to use thd word "strikes" any more.

I think this is one of the meetings up

And if you look at who two of the attendees

are on the platform, one T Benn, one J Corbyn.

75 former Militant members have signed a letter saying that the time

is right for Jeremy Corbyn to let them back in.

I felt it was impossible inside that New Labour to carry

on the fight for socialism, so we fought for it outside.

Dave Nellist was a Coventry MP for nine years.

He's a name synonymous with the most radical side of Labour.

Jeremy's re-election a few weeks ago shows that there is the possibility

He's outnumbered nine to ond in Parliament and on councils.

There's a lot of manoeuvres to try to get rid of him

and I want to be part of the battle to support his

Of course, this all comes at a time when the party is once

The membership wants Jeremy Corbyn, the Parliamentary

And with criticism of the t`ctics of the left-wing group Momentum

that supports Mr Corbyn, some people say the idea

of admitting some of these people back in is nothing

But Dave Nellist says, far from being the ruin of the party,

when it comes to voters he could be one of its saviours.

If we do nothing but wait for the 2020 election,

three quarters of all council services in our

Youth clubs, libraries, children's centres.

Adult education centres, park wardens, street cleaners.

Labour says where members h`ve previously been banned,

the decision on re-entry is one for the National Executive Commhttee.

Dave Nellist is now chair of the Trade Unionist And Socialist

Coalition, and says, if he's allowed back in,

the group won't field any c`ndidates at next year's local elections.

We're hoping that the Labour NEC, which meets on the 22nd

If they don't find the time to do it then, I think we'll take our

campaign to the ranks of thd Labour and trade union movement,

with a national petition to help the NEC

A threat or a promise from Dave Nellist ending that report

Well, instrumental in Labour's purge of Militant three decades ago

was a tight-knit Midlands-dominated caucus of MPs and union leaders -

among them, John Spellar, now MP for Warley.

Down the line to Westminster, I asked him how he thought the party

These people, let's be clear, are dedicated Trotskyists.

They have their own tightly knit revolutionary organisation.

They only want to use the Labour Party, use its ftnds

and try and divert young people into their cause.

We'd be mad to let them back into the Labour Party.

But isn't the reality that they in a way, are more in tune

with the Labour Party as it is now, with these half a million

They see you, really, as just a post-Blairite Parliamentary rump.

Oh, this is complete rubbish and we know that from

the Labour Parties right thd way across the Midlands.

And they've seen these people before.

They saw all the trouble that they caused in Coventrx.

We became unelectable in thd 19 0s precisely because people wotld not

allow a party that had people like that in it

And even more recently, they have been running...

They set up their own party, they've been running candid`tes

against the Labour Party across the country.

Even as late as this year's elections.

So why would we want to be letting in people who are clearly hostile

to the fundamental democrathc aims of the Labour Party?

They've got their own revolutionary party.

They can run in elections, they can get the derisory votes they want.

They just want to use the L`bour Party.

We will never be able to rebuild and provide a credible alternative

to the Conservatives if we `llow these sort of people

You clearly think that thesd applicants should be given short

shrift but do you think Jeremy Corbyn will think thd same?

Well, I think, actually, it's the national executive

of the Labour Party and these issues about allowing revolutionarx groups

in come up time and again in Labour's history.

The Communist Party tried to infiltrate us,

League, the international socialists, the Militant

and now this new lot from the Socialist party.

They don't want to help the Labour Party win with ordinary

voters and every time we look as though we're getting close

to them, that takes us further from power and further from doing

the right thing for ordinarx voters in the Midlands and right

John Spellar clearly thinks Dave Nellist and company should be

left out of the Labour Partx, exactly where they are now.

But the big difference, of course, is that then they were hard left

insurrection whereas now, Jeremy Corbyn is in

Well, these people, back in the 1980s, made

And we were, and Margaret Thatcher reigned supreme.

They then formed their own parties and they've stood in elections,

both to local councils and in Parliament,

So these people have lost the Labour Party elections,

they've lost elections standing on their own platform.

But the reality is, though, isn't it, that there

between Jeremy Corbyn and Dave Nellist?

There is a big role now for an anti-austerity socialist

Labour Party to organise and help those people who feel that they re

being left behind by the austerity agenda.

I think, yes, the Labour Party needs to pick up that strong feelhng

of dissent there is amongst people in the country and against this

Conservative government and the things that are happening

in terms of making people homeless and the difficulties we're having

Yes, they want them addressdd, but believe me...

Isn't socialism a more authdntic answer to all those things?

But we're not going to find those answers with those people

in the past and the present who failed to get the votes

I know there is a certain alount of glee on the Tory side

about these divisions within the Labour Party

but Dominic Raab, one of your former ministers,

during the Tory conference in Birmingham, said

anybody on your side who underestimates Jeremy Corbyn

does so at their peril, because he could tap into this

sentiment at street level that we see all around us

in the various elections th`t we've been talking about.

Of course, there's a real d`nger in Jeremy Corbyn but I think just

the fact that people like Dave Nellist, Peter Ta`ffe

Derek Hatton, feel that the Labour Party is once again their home just

underlines how far Jeremy Corbyn has taken the Labour Party away

from the mainstream, where most of the public ard.

But I saw a Momentum event in Birmingham where there

were people who were teachers, there were people who had even been

supporters of Margaret Thatcher in her time.

And Labour is actually a mass movement as well as a polithcal

Well, of course, my predecessor but one as MP in Dudley South,

He was a militant in the early 980s himself, before he disowned Militant

and moved into the mainstre`m of the Labour Party.

Do the socialists have a case against moderates like you that

you are undermining Jeremy Corbyn's leadership at every turn?

Well, I'm not certainly unddrmining the leadership of the party.

I've been in the party 53 ydars now and I've supported every single

I think my concern is firstly that people who couldn't get elected

are trying to get elected and they've failed themselvds but,

also, if you look this year, I was only elected this year in May

We must leave it there for the moment.

Well, as the Chancellor puts the finishing touches

to Wednesday's Autumn Statelent how is the economy shaping tp

Well, our exporters and importers will differ on that one, of course.

But for West Bromwich-based East End Foods,

The weakness of the post-Brdxit pound has hit business here hard.

The company imports foodstuffs and they estimate costs havd gone up

by ?50,000 a week since the Leave vote.

I think the toughest six months we have seen.

East End Foods has been in business for nearly 50 years and this has

At Ellenborough Park Hotel near Cheltenham, bookings are up.

We've seen an influx of overseas guests, particularly US,

because they can just see that, of the options available to them,

the UK is really attractive, when their dollars go a lot further.

The jobless total fell by 22,00 between July and September

The pound may be sinking but, despite referendum warnings,

And thinking first, Mike, about importers like East End Foods,

they're trying not to pass on the extra costs that thex incur

through the extra pound but it does raise questions.

They are having to take a spueeze in order to do that,

and it makes Theresa May's vision of a successful Brexit look

No, I don't think that's true at all.

Clearly, things are difficult for importers at the moment.

I do think that the pound will return more towards trdnd

levels because the underlying fundamentals of the

We've seen in the report that the Black Country Chamber

published this week, there was huge optimism amongst

They're investing more, they're exporting more.

The level of the pound is actually leading to really good condhtions

for exporters, particularly in manufacturing.

And the fall in unemployment and the increased, to record levels,

But, within that, the bulk of the new jobs are going to people

who weren't born in this cotntry and a large component

When is your government going to actually

face up to the benign effects of EU migration?

Well, of course, Theresa Max has been clear that we want to trigger

Article 50 in the spring to make a start on the process of ldaving

the European Union and impldmenting the decision that voters took

in June and, as part of that, we will need the transition`l

measures that mean that where people are already in the country

and working, that we have agreements with our European partners that

obviously, we expect people to be able to say here but we also expect

British nationals living and working overseas

to be able to remain, so I think that's

But when we were told beford the referendum that there

would be economic apocalypsd if people voted to leave,

of course GDP was supposed to be negative, unemployment

Instead, we've got really strong GDP growth, we got unemployment falling.

Mike's just mentioned the Black Country Chamber.

The West Midlands economic Forum talks about very optimistic growth

So the Government seems to be getting something right

I think the problem here is, we don't know a lot of the `nswers

and some of Mike's responses to your questions, he clearly

Now, we've got a temporary situation where the pound is falling.

Unemployment halved in five years in Birmingham.

The cost of food going up, the cost of fuel going up.

But then, when we find oursdlves outside of the European Union,

we will then have to have 27 different trade deals with different

countries and there may be tariffs but against our exporters now,

so Brexit hasn't happened ydt, so we can't actually say

what the effect of it is going to be.

-- tariffs put against some of our exporters.

We can only see some of the effects of it going to happen.

I think in two years' time, if we get a hard Brexit,

which is where we seem to bd heading, then this could have a huge

impact on exporters and we could see more expensive food and the basic

And yet surveys suggest that most voters actually want the kind

of immigration policies that only a hard Brexit

People voted to take back control in June and I think that's

Now, I'm afraid I don't think David quite understands how

the European Union works when he says we'd need 27

We'd have one trade deal with the remainder

Just as we don't have separate trade deals

with all of the countries at the moment, we wouldn't

We'd have one with the European Union.

We could go on but, frankly, at this stage we can't.

For the moment, thank you both very much indeed.

So, what other political developments have been making

Our round-up in 60 seconds is brought to us today

in Worcestershire joined a nationwide protest over claims

there's been a surge in violence among inmates.

Dudley Council has joined forces with the Environment Agency

after a huge rubbish heap appeared near the town centre.

It's just a few miles away from the site of another motntain

of waste, which took years to clear, in Brierley Hill.

Nuneaton-born left-wing fill director Ken Loach marked 50 years

since Cathy Come Home with an appearance on Midlands Today

So does he think homelessness is less of a problem now?

I think everyone agrees thex're worse, because the markets have been

To build houses and to solve the problem.

Once lauded by David Cameron and Michael Gove,

Birmingham's Perry Beeches @cademy Trust in Birmingham has had another

one of its schools rated as inadequate by inpectors.

And West Midlands Police will begin a recruitment drive this wedk.

They are looking to take on an extra 800 new officers.

Yes, and that is part and p`rcel of David Jamieson's policing plan,

due out on Wednesday, and comes off the back of a survey

by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary.

Over a third of 26,000 people across England hadn't seen ` bobby

Is that what this is really all about?

Because, actually, there ard plenty of demand at the moment,

given the prevalence of cybdr crime, phishing e-mails and all thd rest

of it, for more bobbies on the internet, not the be`ch.

Well, firstly, the plan is about setting out the strategic

things that people want in the area, and those are the things I promised

in my manifesto in May and now I'm putting them into the plan.

And that's for the Chief Constable now to undertake.

We are facing, firstly, huge cuts in our budget.

We've lost a quarter of our budget under Mike's government

What I'm saying is, we do nded to get the bobbies on the bdat.

We're undertaking a big recruitment campaign.

But also you quite rightly point out some of the crimes that we're

dealing with are entirely dhfferent and need a different

approach to policing than we had in the past.

Briefly, David, actually, is quite entitled to give

Because it turns out his is, as he says, one of the two

least expensive Police and Crime Commissioner

offices in the country, whereas Conservative Warwickshire,

West Mercia, Staffordshire `re among the most expensive offices

As David knows, I'm a big stpporter of West Midlands Police.

My dad was an West Midlands Policeman for nearly

had the meetings with ministers in the Treasury and the Homd Office

and elsewhere to argue the case for the West Midlands to get

Hopefully, when we can get that new funding formula, it will help.

My thanks to Commissioner D`vid Jamieson and Mike Wood.

And there's more on the futtre of the police service

West Mercia's new Chief Constable Anthony Banham has been described

We're about to find out what exactly that means if, indeed,

He'll be in BBC Radio Shropshire's hot seat during Jim Hawkins'

programme from ten o'clock on Tuesday.

This, though, is where we all rejoin Andrew Neil.

in four years. It is subject we should spend more time on. Back to

you. What will the Chancellor have to say

in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say

Brexit will have on the economy And who will face the Front

National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor

and the Chancellor have both been touring the television

studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this

is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the

pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered

to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat

of what I'm not going to reveal

what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited

capacity, as one might imagine from listening

to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more

for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't

exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won

credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain

an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,

but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another

?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of

our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,

is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the

details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement

that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the

OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit

to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is

on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget

Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is

an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and

we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a

terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be

screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the

economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it

is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people

will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow

strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down

and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will

slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the

more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from

2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even

without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is

right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have

been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has

negative and gloomy predictions there will be howls of agony, and

rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the

dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and

now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling

prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every

little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal

stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it

will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford

and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how

to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to

Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it

goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel

duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are

potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything

you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit

freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded

ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not the

cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because

they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require

welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits as

it stands, are frozen until 202 , and yet inflation is now starting to

rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is

worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax

credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will

get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has

any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic

jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not

calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.

What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that

Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow

cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The

days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an

end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had

six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are

important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and

the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne s

borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than

George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing

will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going

to happen? It could be Italy, or the French

elections coming up next spring Now, who will face the Front

National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential

elections? Well, France's centre-right

part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate

in the first round of Well, France's centre-right

part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate

in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent

in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main

candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,

the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.

Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look

as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through

and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like

the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and

there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking

for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the

right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is

the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what

it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite

staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday

and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up

strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through

which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the

becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.

His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I

would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins

this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next

president, and who the next president is will be very important

for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really

happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in

October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important

thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will

almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect

much. Francois Hollande is done There is too much of a cliff to

climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop

Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have

Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it is the battle of the right. In some

areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he

has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she

could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French

analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it

this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over

the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for

her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.

Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican

nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that

would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and

those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for

Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in

America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out You

got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are

foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes

forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,

but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is

the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.

Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to

re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment

candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National

front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on

the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe

used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of

claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear

against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote

for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this

time. The Daily Politics is back at noon

tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full

coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics.