27/11/2016 Sunday Politics West Midlands


27/11/2016

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?

:00:41.:00:45.

After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.

:00:46.:00:49.

Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency

:00:50.:00:54.

The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.

:00:55.:00:59.

Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms

:01:00.:01:02.

of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?

:01:03.:01:06.

Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet

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minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.

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And in the Midlands, they're at the banquet,

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but not on top table - the members of the Midlands

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combined authority - with no say in who becomes Metro Mayor.

:01:18.:01:19.

Devo deal or no deal? In half an hour.

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And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme

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Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news

:01:39.:01:45.

of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came

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to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.

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Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader

:01:52.:01:56.

as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked

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Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social

:02:00.:02:03.

justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"

:02:04.:02:05.

President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader

:02:06.:02:10.

as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death

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would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people

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finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".

:02:18.:02:21.

Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,

:02:22.:02:23.

Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader

:02:24.:02:26.

was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged

:02:27.:02:29.

I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the

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reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I

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noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to

:02:49.:02:56.

Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he

:02:57.:03:00.

was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,

:03:01.:03:04.

agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many

:03:05.:03:07.

people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been

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inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream

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consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this

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respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would

:03:21.:03:25.

be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.

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Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have

:03:32.:03:34.

looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection

:03:35.:03:40.

for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error

:03:41.:03:44.

dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?

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He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He

:03:49.:03:55.

wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually

:03:56.:03:58.

look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other

:03:59.:04:01.

countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a

:04:02.:04:08.

champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been

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utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have

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thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic

:04:19.:04:22.

failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when

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Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the

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debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any

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criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There

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were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would

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have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban

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solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It

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existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,

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who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday

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saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the

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world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He

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never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks

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ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The

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lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated

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stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was

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working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there

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will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet

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and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say

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it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism

:06:12.:06:28.

that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime

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Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to

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open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing

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brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.

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When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying

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the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as

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all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a

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leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either

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decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it

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was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure

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worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.

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There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they

:07:25.:07:28.

sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris

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Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to

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deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.

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And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr

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Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.

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That was what made it so fascinating.

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Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS

:08:00.:08:03.

in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020

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on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth

:08:08.:08:10.

Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling

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"Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,

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but some of the proposals are already running into local

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opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.

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Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.

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But east of England ambulance call operators

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they're sending an early intervention vehicle

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with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.

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It's being piloted here for over 65s with

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When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be

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treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.

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Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,

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taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,

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So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided

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The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able

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to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,

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to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand

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where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how

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best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems

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that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.

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This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how

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You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.

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The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.

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What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.

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Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went

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through after broad public and political consultation

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with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.

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It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS

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trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.

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It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide

:10:18.:10:20.

The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS

:10:21.:10:27.

in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion

:10:28.:10:33.

worth of efficiencies across the country.

:10:34.:10:35.

In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health

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and care partnerships, and each one will provide

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a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,

:10:41.:10:44.

provide better services and save money.

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So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people

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in the health service and local government,

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The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending

:10:56.:11:02.

growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.

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STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way

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But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number

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of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle

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ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed

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This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his

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I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close

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all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out

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of the acute sector who are elderly and looking

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That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,

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All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,

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But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.

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The Government's sustainability and transformation plans

:12:02.:12:04.

for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.

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The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings

:12:10.:12:12.

within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.

:12:13.:12:17.

There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.

:12:18.:12:21.

Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week

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about the importance of community hospitals in general,

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These are proposals out to consultation.

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What could happen if these plans get blocked?

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If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come

:12:40.:12:43.

to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned

:12:44.:12:48.

deterioration and services becoming unstable and service

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The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement

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but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs

:12:57.:13:03.

are in the interests of local people.

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Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England

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to push through these controversial regional plans,

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which will soon face public scrutiny.

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We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,

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I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,

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Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of

:13:25.:13:41.

efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of

:13:42.:13:44.

independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22

:13:45.:13:49.

billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you

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drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have

:13:55.:13:57.

been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that

:13:58.:14:00.

some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community

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pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000

:14:06.:14:08.

pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and

:14:09.:14:13.

GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,

:14:14.:14:17.

which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a

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local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these

:14:26.:14:31.

efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from

:14:32.:14:34.

Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve

:14:35.:14:41.

health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable

:14:42.:14:48.

transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical

:14:49.:14:51.

health, mental health and social care, for those services to

:14:52.:14:56.

collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented

:14:57.:14:58.

system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground

:14:59.:15:05.

has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,

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the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By

:15:10.:15:14.

2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to

:15:15.:15:17.

redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the

:15:18.:15:23.

money in. So of course, getting these services working better

:15:24.:15:26.

together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would

:15:27.:15:30.

have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the

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last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is

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an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?

:15:41.:15:47.

Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22

:15:48.:15:54.

billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.

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But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they

:16:00.:16:04.

said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have

:16:05.:16:10.

changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by

:16:11.:16:15.

2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by

:16:16.:16:21.

20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually

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transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the

:16:26.:16:30.

commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been

:16:31.:16:34.

cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year

:16:35.:16:38.

project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the

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Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week

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there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the

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efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by

:16:55.:16:59.

2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now

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for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with

:17:05.:17:07.

everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers

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and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I

:17:14.:17:20.

had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they

:17:21.:17:26.

expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by

:17:27.:17:31.

now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?

:17:32.:17:36.

To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The

:17:37.:17:41.

budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like

:17:42.:17:48.

co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a

:17:49.:17:59.

plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in

:18:00.:18:05.

2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is

:18:06.:18:09.

committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently

:18:10.:18:15.

John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are

:18:16.:18:20.

talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current

:18:21.:18:24.

spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the

:18:25.:18:28.

money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If

:18:29.:18:35.

you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from

:18:36.:18:46.

the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?

:18:47.:18:50.

That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for

:18:51.:18:59.

Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to

:19:00.:19:03.

give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the

:19:04.:19:07.

Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do

:19:08.:19:12.

it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give

:19:13.:19:16.

the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like

:19:17.:19:20.

any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what

:19:21.:19:24.

the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.

:19:25.:19:30.

I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election

:19:31.:19:33.

with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has

:19:34.:19:36.

been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.

:19:37.:19:41.

You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not

:19:42.:19:46.

a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment

:19:47.:19:51.

to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting

:19:52.:19:55.

a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about

:19:56.:20:00.

4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that

:20:01.:20:05.

substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have

:20:06.:20:08.

access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to

:20:09.:20:17.

be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap

:20:18.:20:22.

in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what

:20:23.:20:27.

this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an

:20:28.:20:33.

efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we

:20:34.:20:38.

agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see

:20:39.:20:42.

productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through

:20:43.:20:50.

investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.

:20:51.:20:56.

One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They

:20:57.:21:03.

are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe

:21:04.:21:07.

that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that

:21:08.:21:11.

contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking

:21:12.:21:15.

about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30

:21:16.:21:21.

billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend

:21:22.:21:28.

more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper

:21:29.:21:31.

care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40

:21:32.:21:35.

billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the

:21:36.:21:40.

account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that

:21:41.:21:45.

and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with

:21:46.:21:48.

that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we

:21:49.:21:52.

are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the

:21:53.:21:56.

investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.

:21:57.:22:04.

The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in

:22:05.:22:09.

A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in

:22:10.:22:13.

hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save

:22:14.:22:17.

the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the

:22:18.:22:20.

Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What

:22:21.:22:25.

I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your

:22:26.:22:28.

reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi

:22:29.:22:33.

Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger

:22:34.:22:40.

of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree

:22:41.:22:47.

with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a

:22:48.:22:53.

result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just

:22:54.:22:56.

going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of

:22:57.:23:01.

these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see

:23:02.:23:05.

if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they

:23:06.:23:09.

have the support of local authorities because they now have a

:23:10.:23:12.

role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the

:23:13.:23:16.

right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.

:23:17.:23:20.

We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they

:23:21.:23:24.

don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,

:23:25.:23:29.

you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with

:23:30.:23:34.

finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are

:23:35.:23:40.

cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like

:23:41.:23:46.

5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector

:23:47.:23:49.

in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long

:23:50.:23:54.

term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very

:23:55.:23:59.

sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the

:24:00.:24:02.

sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,

:24:03.:24:08.

which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy

:24:09.:24:13.

nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of

:24:14.:24:19.

the other countries, European countries included, we need to put

:24:20.:24:24.

up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the

:24:25.:24:30.

Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me

:24:31.:24:35.

down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up

:24:36.:24:40.

with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European

:24:41.:24:43.

average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,

:24:44.:24:47.

but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need

:24:48.:24:54.

substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was

:24:55.:24:56.

extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the

:24:57.:25:00.

Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,

:25:01.:25:05.

whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to

:25:06.:25:10.

us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.

:25:11.:25:12.

Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations

:25:13.:25:14.

before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait

:25:15.:25:17.

for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote

:25:18.:25:19.

If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats

:25:20.:25:23.

and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU

:25:24.:25:25.

referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before

:25:26.:25:28.

And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested

:25:29.:25:31.

that the referendum result could be reversed.

:25:32.:25:34.

In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,

:25:35.:25:38.

Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,

:25:39.:25:41.

having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis

:25:42.:25:43.

John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting

:25:44.:25:49.

of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit

:25:50.:25:52.

were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".

:25:53.:25:54.

He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"

:25:55.:25:56.

That prompted the former Conservative leader

:25:57.:26:00.

Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.

:26:01.:26:04.

He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply

:26:05.:26:06.

because they disagree with the original result does

:26:07.:26:08.

seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."

:26:09.:26:13.

So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms

:26:14.:26:16.

of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?

:26:17.:26:21.

Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect

:26:22.:26:24.

the will of the people and that means they must have their say

:26:25.:26:28.

in a referendum on the terms of the deal."

:26:29.:26:31.

But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support

:26:32.:26:35.

One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.

:26:36.:26:40.

He backs the idea of a second referendum.

:26:41.:26:43.

But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,

:26:44.:26:46.

"Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting

:26:47.:26:49.

To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum

:26:50.:26:57.

on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two

:26:58.:27:00.

In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,

:27:01.:27:03.

and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister

:27:04.:27:05.

Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have

:27:06.:27:17.

spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or

:27:18.:27:23.

you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the

:27:24.:27:30.

referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I

:27:31.:27:33.

said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we

:27:34.:27:38.

will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but

:27:39.:27:44.

we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the

:27:45.:27:51.

British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would

:27:52.:27:58.

then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's

:27:59.:28:02.

lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,

:28:03.:28:06.

you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on

:28:07.:28:11.

immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many

:28:12.:28:19.

fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be

:28:20.:28:25.

a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many

:28:26.:28:29.

occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different

:28:30.:28:34.

thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be

:28:35.:28:38.

true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the

:28:39.:28:41.

destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about

:28:42.:28:47.

the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be

:28:48.:28:51.

appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft

:28:52.:28:55.

Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more

:28:56.:29:00.

difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign

:29:01.:29:06.

but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on

:29:07.:29:10.

the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on

:29:11.:29:14.

what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and

:29:15.:29:17.

putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous

:29:18.:29:25.

idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an

:29:26.:29:30.

impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make

:29:31.:29:34.

sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard

:29:35.:29:39.

Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum

:29:40.:29:43.

campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means

:29:44.:29:49.

making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected

:29:50.:29:52.

politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting

:29:53.:29:56.

control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was

:29:57.:30:00.

clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million

:30:01.:30:06.

votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more

:30:07.:30:11.

than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14

:30:12.:30:16.

million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very

:30:17.:30:20.

clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we

:30:21.:30:25.

going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to

:30:26.:30:29.

trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better

:30:30.:30:31.

place. OK, I need to get a debate going.

:30:32.:30:41.

Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was

:30:42.:30:45.

going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a

:30:46.:30:47.

second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the

:30:48.:30:49.

worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a

:30:50.:30:54.

ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could

:30:55.:30:59.

go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the

:31:00.:31:02.

European Union is less important than the opinion of the British

:31:03.:31:06.

people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me

:31:07.:31:10.

precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain

:31:11.:31:16.

voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson

:31:17.:31:19.

and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the

:31:20.:31:24.

range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.

:31:25.:31:28.

There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,

:31:29.:31:31.

getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,

:31:32.:31:37.

this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.

:31:38.:31:44.

The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our

:31:45.:31:51.

laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of

:31:52.:31:54.

what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would

:31:55.:32:01.

be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the

:32:02.:32:06.

hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The

:32:07.:32:10.

biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British

:32:11.:32:17.

history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally

:32:18.:32:21.

proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a

:32:22.:32:26.

strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks

:32:27.:32:32.

like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.

:32:33.:32:43.

He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct

:32:44.:32:51.

possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a

:32:52.:32:56.

second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on

:32:57.:32:59.

ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British

:33:00.:33:03.

people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and

:33:04.:33:10.

keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to

:33:11.:33:20.

that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying

:33:21.:33:22.

attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have

:33:23.:33:33.

to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said

:33:34.:33:37.

that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,

:33:38.:33:43.

they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European

:33:44.:33:47.

Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the

:33:48.:33:52.

process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why

:33:53.:34:04.

Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to

:34:05.:34:08.

ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote

:34:09.:34:16.

by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it

:34:17.:34:28.

best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would

:34:29.:34:33.

have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because

:34:34.:34:37.

I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.

:34:38.:34:45.

Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The

:34:46.:34:51.

central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a

:34:52.:34:56.

destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if

:34:57.:35:01.

it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be

:35:02.:35:06.

undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on

:35:07.:35:09.

the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain

:35:10.:35:13.

members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs

:35:14.:35:20.

union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude

:35:21.:35:24.

towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the

:35:25.:35:27.

government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have

:35:28.:35:31.

no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental

:35:32.:35:36.

case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a

:35:37.:35:43.

clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment

:35:44.:35:51.

figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do

:35:52.:35:53.

to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not

:35:54.:36:01.

delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,

:36:02.:36:04.

wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people

:36:05.:36:10.

who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it

:36:11.:36:14.

will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the

:36:15.:36:18.

whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is

:36:19.:36:26.

very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the

:36:27.:36:30.

answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and

:36:31.:36:39.

French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it

:36:40.:36:45.

not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it

:36:46.:36:49.

would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I

:36:50.:36:53.

think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't

:36:54.:36:56.

been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in

:36:57.:36:59.

Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.

:37:00.:37:03.

They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic

:37:04.:37:08.

process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen

:37:09.:37:11.

suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the

:37:12.:37:19.

government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to

:37:20.:37:23.

listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,

:37:24.:37:33.

as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second

:37:34.:37:38.

referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it

:37:39.:37:41.

there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have

:37:42.:37:48.

eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!

:37:49.:37:51.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:52.:37:53.

Hello again. in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:54.:38:07.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.

:38:08.:38:09.

They're at the devolution party, but they're not on the top table.

:38:10.:38:12.

11 of our local authorities have signed up to the Combined Authority.

:38:13.:38:15.

But they'll have no say in the election of a Metro Mayor.

:38:16.:38:18.

Will the Metro Mayor have a big say over them?

:38:19.:38:23.

Well, one of those non-constituent councils is Redditch.

:38:24.:38:26.

Karen Lumley is the town's Conservative MP.

:38:27.:38:30.

Tristram Hunt is the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central.

:38:31.:38:34.

"Pig in the Middle", I might say, between

:38:35.:38:36.

the "Midlands Engine" and the "Northern Powerhouse"?

:38:37.:38:40.

Well, we're with a Northern Powerhouse gateway zone

:38:41.:38:44.

with a Midlands Engine... OK.

:38:45.:38:46.

We are any number of bodies coming out of Whitehall...

:38:47.:38:48.

I'm losing the will to live already! We'll have more on that in a moment.

:38:49.:38:51.

And still on the devolution trail, we'll have more on the Chancellor's

:38:52.:38:54.

promise of a second Midlands devo-deal in his Autumn Statement.

:38:55.:38:57.

There's no more money for the Health Service.

:38:58.:39:05.

Ministers say they're giving NHS England exactly

:39:06.:39:07.

But the Labour Leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who's been touring

:39:08.:39:13.

the Midlands over the past few days, says our hospitals budget deficits

:39:14.:39:16.

the Midlands over the past few days, says our hospitals' budget deficits

:39:17.:39:19.

We asked him if there should be protection for services

:39:20.:39:22.

which are under threat, such as those at the Alexandra Hospital

:39:23.:39:25.

I think there has to be the full range of services

:39:26.:39:28.

That means configoration of services that have public support

:39:29.:39:38.

and we don't go ahead with some cruel closures and cutbacks,

:39:39.:39:41.

which actually damage patient care and safety.

:39:42.:39:42.

And having spent some of his formative years

:39:43.:39:44.

at Newport in Shropshire, Mr Corbyn also believes Accident

:39:45.:39:46.

and Emergency departments in both Telford and Shrewsbury

:39:47.:39:48.

Karen, having sort of lived and breathed the Alexandra Hospital

:39:49.:39:53.

for so long, what would you say to Jeremy Corbyn?

:39:54.:39:56.

Jeremy Corbyn made a very valid point at the end.

:39:57.:39:58.

We've got to have hospitals that are safe, and, you know,

:39:59.:40:01.

that's where we are at the Alex at the moment.

:40:02.:40:09.

We couldn't recruit nurses to staff some of our wards, so temporarily,

:40:10.:40:12.

we've had to close those wards and move them to other hospitals.

:40:13.:40:15.

Now, hopefully, we are going to start the review,

:40:16.:40:17.

six years we'd been waiting for, that the people of Redditch can

:40:18.:40:20.

have their say and say where they want services

:40:21.:40:22.

and what service they want, and whether we can

:40:23.:40:25.

Doesn't he also have a point, though, that it's a big mistake

:40:26.:40:32.

for there to be no more money for the NHS?

:40:33.:40:35.

Given the pressures we're seeing, particularly with bed blocking,

:40:36.:40:37.

and the related question of social care?

:40:38.:40:39.

Simon Stevens, head of the NHS, asked us at

:40:40.:40:41.

the General Election for 8 billion. We gave him 10.

:40:42.:40:43.

So we gave the head of the NHS what he asked for at the time

:40:44.:40:47.

I think that is what we've got to do - look forward and make sure

:40:48.:40:52.

we provide good services, quality services in our hospitals.

:40:53.:40:57.

In Stoke, of course, you have the Royal Stoke Hospital,

:40:58.:40:59.

Theresa May makes the point on this bed blocking issue that something

:41:00.:41:06.

like 3.5 billion extra will go into relieving the bed blocking

:41:07.:41:09.

issue between now and 2020, with things like the Better Care Fund,

:41:10.:41:13.

extra preset that local authorities can add onto it, so the government

:41:14.:41:16.

We face a slightly different challenge to Karen,

:41:17.:41:21.

because we are dealing with the fallout still

:41:22.:41:23.

from Mid Staffs and what's happening at Stafford Hospital,

:41:24.:41:27.

so we are seeing more and more demand on our services

:41:28.:41:31.

at Royal Stoke and, despite everything the government

:41:32.:41:34.

says, what we are also seeing is the loss of beds

:41:35.:41:38.

in community hospitals, so that step down facility,

:41:39.:41:41.

which allows people to leave the Royal Stoke as the main hospital

:41:42.:41:45.

and then have a step down bed in a Community Hospital

:41:46.:41:48.

That is being stripped out, so we are seeing more bed blocking

:41:49.:41:54.

upstream as it were, in the major hospitals, so we hear

:41:55.:41:57.

these words in Westminster, but on the ground in Stoke-on-Trent,

:41:58.:42:00.

we are not seeing the kind of improvements we need

:42:01.:42:02.

What do you make of these sustainability and transformation

:42:03.:42:06.

plans, which we're hearing a lot of recently, in terms of trying

:42:07.:42:09.

to ease off our reliance on very expensive hospital services?

:42:10.:42:13.

Well, they've been shrouded in secrecy and mystery.

:42:14.:42:16.

I think the process by which they have come

:42:17.:42:18.

about has not been as open as possible and then,

:42:19.:42:23.

we had a situation whereby we were not allowed to appeal

:42:24.:42:28.

or investigate issues such as the loss of community hospitals,

:42:29.:42:37.

so it seems to me this is a very cost-driven process,

:42:38.:42:39.

rather than kind of a more strategic process,

:42:40.:42:41.

Briefly, we are getting details of an

:42:42.:42:44.

STP in Worcestershire as well. We are.

:42:45.:42:46.

Are you comfortable with this process?

:42:47.:42:47.

Because Mr Corbyn thinks that this is a way of concealing ?22 million

:42:48.:42:51.

No, I think it's a way of looking to the future of how we can

:42:52.:42:56.

best use of resources to provide hospital services

:42:57.:42:58.

And I think it's important that we go to look at them,

:42:59.:43:03.

as they were only released this week.

:43:04.:43:05.

I'm looking at them very carefully to see how they might

:43:06.:43:07.

affect my constituents, but I want for my constituents the

:43:08.:43:10.

And to get it absolutely right, 22 billion was the sum that

:43:11.:43:15.

So, what was in the Autumn Statement for us here?

:43:16.:43:19.

It was Philip Hammond's first, and last.

:43:20.:43:22.

From next year, he said, we'll have Spring Statements

:43:23.:43:24.

He also announced a ?392 million boost for our part of the country,

:43:25.:43:32.

with road and rail investment to close the yawning productivity

:43:33.:43:35.

gap with our European and American counterparts.

:43:36.:43:39.

And there's the promise of a second devolution deal

:43:40.:43:41.

for the new West Midlands Combined Authority.

:43:42.:43:46.

His first big day out since switching from

:43:47.:43:48.

Foreign Secretary to Chancellor, but most of the 50 minutes

:43:49.:43:53.

he was on his feet, Philip Hammond sounded more

:43:54.:43:55.

like the Transport Secretary he once was, determined

:43:56.:43:57.

Our Midlands Engine strategy will follow shortly,

:43:58.:44:02.

but I am today providing funding, so that the evaluation

:44:03.:44:04.

study for the Midlands rail hub can go ahead.

:44:05.:44:09.

In addition, we are investing in local infrastructure

:44:10.:44:11.

That ?5 million rail hub should ease the squeeze on the trains,

:44:12.:44:18.

allowing ten more services every hour through the heart

:44:19.:44:21.

of the rail system - Birmingham New Street.

:44:22.:44:23.

Road improvements too, to clear those traffic pinch points,

:44:24.:44:27.

which cost our economy billions every year.

:44:28.:44:30.

Any extra investment for transport in the Midlands is welcome,

:44:31.:44:32.

but let's look at the big picture in today's statement.

:44:33.:44:37.

Business investment downgraded, growth set to fall,

:44:38.:44:39.

inflation set to rise, debt and the deficit on the increase.

:44:40.:44:42.

That's why there's no extra money for the National Health Service.

:44:43.:44:44.

There will be money to lay the foundations

:44:45.:44:47.

How much of the ?4.1 billion national package comes here an early

:44:48.:44:53.

test for his promised second, more ambitious devo-deal

:44:54.:44:57.

for the new Combined Authority and its controversial Metro Mayor,

:44:58.:45:00.

Also adding perhaps to the pressure on the green belt

:45:01.:45:06.

There was money proposed for housing in general and 40,000 more

:45:07.:45:10.

affordable homes across the whole country.

:45:11.:45:13.

We have got to provide affordable housing for people to live.

:45:14.:45:16.

Looking on from Shropshire, the bosses of small businesses,

:45:17.:45:19.

who the Chancellor is encouraging to make the most whatever

:45:20.:45:23.

European Union may be tapped into. Before Brexit, of course!

:45:24.:45:29.

And reinforcing that drive for transport improvements,

:45:30.:45:33.

tomorrow, Midlands Today launches Your Shout,

:45:34.:45:35.

on congestion issues, and how to break through the gridlock.

:45:36.:45:39.

Tristram, what is not to like about 390

:45:40.:45:41.

?390 million - I'm having trouble with my millions

:45:42.:45:46.

and billions today - for the Midlands to invest

:45:47.:45:49.

in transport, in housing, in the infrastructure generally?

:45:50.:45:51.

Well, we in Stoke-on-Trent, are still smarting about

:45:52.:46:01.

the decision made around HS2, putting the services

:46:02.:46:03.

into Stafford and into Crewe, rather than into Stoke-on-Trent,

:46:04.:46:06.

so we've lost out on billions and billions of pounds

:46:07.:46:08.

of infrastructure in North Staffordshire.

:46:09.:46:09.

What I also think is my colleague Ian Austin said, yes,

:46:10.:46:12.

it's great to have this investment, but we also learnt from

:46:13.:46:15.

the Autumn Statement of the ?60 billion cost of Brexit,

:46:16.:46:19.

we also learned about rising inflation, we also learned

:46:20.:46:22.

about the effect on investment decisions, so I welcome

:46:23.:46:24.

the infrastructure investment, I want to see some detail

:46:25.:46:28.

on the Midlands Engine, so it's more than just a strapline,

:46:29.:46:30.

there's actually a policy there, but the big macro picture,

:46:31.:46:34.

I'm very concerned about the effects on confidence and investment

:46:35.:46:39.

and inflation as a result of the Brexit vote.

:46:40.:46:44.

And while I'm talking about big numbers, doing my best to talk

:46:45.:46:48.

of them, there is talk this weekend of the possibility of 10,000 extra

:46:49.:46:53.

jobs in the West Midlands from Jaguar Land Rover, possibly

:46:54.:46:55.

building new electric-powered vehicles in this region.

:46:56.:46:57.

That would be a vote of confidence in this economy,

:46:58.:47:01.

in this government and indeed post-Brexit Britain, wouldn't it?

:47:02.:47:03.

That would be superb, and I think we should pay

:47:04.:47:06.

tribute to the leader of the Warwick Manufacturing Group

:47:07.:47:08.

and Kumar Bhattacharyya and all the work that's going on there.

:47:09.:47:10.

A lot of workers from Stoke-on-Trent work in those businesses.

:47:11.:47:14.

We will see, though, whether they get

:47:15.:47:15.

We will see whether we got the same indication of confidence there are,

:47:16.:47:21.

which, it was notable in the budget, that the Treasury refused

:47:22.:47:24.

to tell the OBR, the Office of Budget Responsibility,

:47:25.:47:26.

Do you see another Nissan-type deal looming over this?

:47:27.:47:31.

That is quite a lot of lingering concern about that and,

:47:32.:47:34.

obviously, you speak as a Brexit campaigner yourself.

:47:35.:47:39.

I did, I'd see that Jaguar Land Rover have done

:47:40.:47:41.

We are seeing, on the M54, the new factory there.

:47:42.:47:46.

And I think there's more room for them to expand further.

:47:47.:47:51.

Obviously, as the Prime Minister said, we are not going to have

:47:52.:47:54.

commentaries on Brexit negotiations constantly day after day.

:47:55.:47:58.

But you know, manufacturers want to work in this country,

:47:59.:48:04.

because we've got good employees, good ways of working,

:48:05.:48:06.

good road networks, especially here in the Midlands and actually,

:48:07.:48:08.

the Midlands Engine is going to be for us the best thing.

:48:09.:48:12.

Two years ago, Patrick, I came here and we had

:48:13.:48:15.

the cross-party discussion about how great this

:48:16.:48:16.

It's now arrived here in the Midlands

:48:17.:48:20.

Let's moved on now to the green belt issue.

:48:21.:48:25.

That is rising from this push on housing, I raised it

:48:26.:48:29.

with Caroline Spelman there, because of Meriden and the green

:48:30.:48:31.

belt there, and she talked incidentally about the garden

:48:32.:48:33.

Bearing in mind that Redditch has green areas around,

:48:34.:48:38.

are there concerns there about the need to soften

:48:39.:48:43.

Sajid Javid said he's ready to make tough decisions.

:48:44.:48:47.

Well, Sajid Javid, as a Secretary of State, that's his job to do that.

:48:48.:48:50.

We need to build many thousand more of new houses, which is

:48:51.:48:54.

right, because we need those in this country.

:48:55.:48:57.

But there are areas in Redditch where we will be looking

:48:58.:49:00.

to build those houses, and I think that's important

:49:01.:49:03.

for each member of Parliament to be able to look at that.

:49:04.:49:06.

Briefly, a warm welcome for extra houses, Tristram?

:49:07.:49:08.

Come and build houses in Stoke-on-Trent.

:49:09.:49:10.

We've got a great deal of land, our schools are succeeding more

:49:11.:49:13.

effectively, it's a great place to invest.

:49:14.:49:15.

More house-building in Stoke,

:49:16.:49:17.

with bricks made in the UK. Indeed.

:49:18.:49:19.

For the moment, thank you both very much indeed.

:49:20.:49:22.

Right, they're at the party but not on top table.

:49:23.:49:26.

Maybe that's how best to understand the position of 11 local authorities

:49:27.:49:32.

who've signed-up as non-constituent members of the new,

:49:33.:49:34.

devolved, Midlands Combined Authority.

:49:35.:49:35.

Unlike the seven metropolitan councils, they can belong

:49:36.:49:37.

And they won't be subject to the Metro Mayor.

:49:38.:49:42.

But our Political Reporter Joanne Gallacher has been wondering

:49:43.:49:47.

if that's how it'll play out in practice.

:49:48.:49:55.

When it comes to devolution in the West Midlands,

:49:56.:49:57.

there's plenty who've already agreed they're coming to the party.

:49:58.:50:00.

The seven metropolitan councils in Birmingham,

:50:01.:50:03.

the Black Country and Coventry are in.

:50:04.:50:09.

A further 11 local authorities and four LEPs around the wider

:50:10.:50:12.

region are also involved, as so-called

:50:13.:50:14.

Among those who have accepted an invitation as non-constituent

:50:15.:50:21.

members are Warwickshire, Tamworth,

:50:22.:50:22.

They'll have fewer voting rights than core authorities.

:50:23.:50:27.

They'll also be independent from the newly-elected mayor,

:50:28.:50:29.

Malcolm Pate is the Conservative leader of Shropshire Council.

:50:30.:50:37.

They're stumping up the ?25,000 to be a non-constituent member.

:50:38.:50:41.

A full member would be paying half a million pounds, and they would

:50:42.:50:44.

have to take account and be infuenced by the Mayor,

:50:45.:50:50.

which we don't. We retain all our pilots.

:50:51.:50:57.

which we don't. We retain all our powers.

:50:58.:50:59.

It's just the cost of being at the table when we are discussing

:51:00.:51:02.

regional teams, which we are actually involved with,

:51:03.:51:05.

like infrastructure, skills, industrial development.

:51:06.:51:06.

And we are there with a vote on those kind of issues.

:51:07.:51:09.

How would you reassure people of Shropshire, who don't seem

:51:10.:51:11.

to know much about the authority, that it is the best deal for them?

:51:12.:51:14.

They are going to have a seat at the table of a very important

:51:15.:51:18.

organisation and I think the government is going to have

:51:19.:51:20.

to look at devolution generally and come up with some sort

:51:21.:51:23.

of solution for rural areas who by and large

:51:24.:51:25.

A lot of the things that mayors are doing are not

:51:26.:51:30.

On the streets, there is little awareness of the West

:51:31.:51:33.

Midlands Combined Authority, or what it does.

:51:34.:51:35.

I've never heard of the West Midlands...

:51:36.:51:36.

Combined Authority? Combined Authority!

:51:37.:51:40.

I've never heard of it. Where is it...?

:51:41.:51:42.

Who's organising it? Which party?

:51:43.:51:45.

Er, is it to do with putting things together, or maybe looking at things

:51:46.:51:48.

together in the community, would it be?

:51:49.:51:51.

In Telford, the Labour-run councils also decided to take the plunge.

:51:52.:51:56.

The government has been very clear that they want to devolve powers

:51:57.:52:03.

and resources to regional levels, to Combined Authorities,

:52:04.:52:06.

and there a number of examples of that and clearly what we want

:52:07.:52:09.

to be is in the right room, having the right conversations,

:52:10.:52:12.

to get the funding that we'd need for priorities here

:52:13.:52:15.

Are you concerned that the elected mayor could become a dominant figure

:52:16.:52:18.

Well, yes, I think that whoever the elected mayors has got a mandate

:52:19.:52:24.

from those areas that are constituent members.

:52:25.:52:27.

He she will have no mandate from Telford and Wrekin

:52:28.:52:30.

and therefore will have to act in the interests of the Combined

:52:31.:52:34.

Authority in the wider sense, but listening to council leaders

:52:35.:52:36.

like me who have got a mandate from the people

:52:37.:52:39.

the countdown to the devolution party is really on.

:52:40.:52:47.

Will it be the success its creators are are wishing for?

:52:48.:52:50.

Will it be the success its creators are wishing for?

:52:51.:52:52.

And who will get the biggest slice of the cake.

:52:53.:52:55.

And who gets the jam layer? Joanne Gallacher reporting.

:52:56.:52:59.

And we're also joined here today by one of our would-be Metro Mayors.

:53:00.:53:04.

James Burn is the Green Party candidate and leader of the official

:53:05.:53:07.

opposition group on Solihull Council.

:53:08.:53:10.

You've obviously, James, done a fair bit of

:53:11.:53:12.

thinking about the role of these Metro Mayors.

:53:13.:53:13.

Isn't it inevitable that, in practice,

:53:14.:53:18.

even though in theory the role is confined

:53:19.:53:20.

to the metropolitan area, the mayor will project people

:53:21.:53:26.

are power across those areas, like Shropshire, like Redditch,

:53:27.:53:28.

the non-constituent areas, in political terms?

:53:29.:53:33.

Yes, absolutely, I mean, there's no option, so transport

:53:34.:53:36.

issues don't start and end at local authority borders.

:53:37.:53:38.

Economic development issues don't start and stop there either.

:53:39.:53:40.

So it's one more problem really of this Combined

:53:41.:53:43.

Authority, with the democratic arrangements and the lack of

:53:44.:53:45.

accountability, is actually these people will have a mayor influencing

:53:46.:53:47.

them, but no say over who that mayor is.

:53:48.:53:49.

raised is about the level of scrutiny over Metro Mayors.

:53:50.:53:53.

What's your worry about that? Absolutely.

:53:54.:53:55.

Well, in London, you've got a directly-elected

:53:56.:53:56.

assembly, with 25 members, so, as a resident,

:53:57.:53:58.

They can challenge what's going on in

:53:59.:54:01.

Here in the West Midlands, we will have a meeting

:54:02.:54:06.

chosen by those running the boards to scrutinise the entire

:54:07.:54:10.

We need to do more to keep that mayor honest and more so ordinary

:54:11.:54:16.

people think the mayor and the authority is

:54:17.:54:18.

working for their good. You've mentioned London.

:54:19.:54:19.

What would you want to do to keep the mere honest?

:54:20.:54:22.

What would you want to do to keep the mayor honest?

:54:23.:54:25.

I think there's a lot you can do, so I would like to look at having

:54:26.:54:29.

a forum set up involving the unions, small businesses, the community,

:54:30.:54:31.

the voluntary sectors and local councillors, that are examining

:54:32.:54:34.

the mayor, forming policy, holding that mayor to account,

:54:35.:54:36.

asking questions and including those non-constituent parts as well, so,

:54:37.:54:38.

if you live in Telford, in Cannock and Nuneaton, you think,

:54:39.:54:41.

"Yes, I've got a line in here, I've got a say."

:54:42.:54:44.

saying there is that somewhere like Redditch gets the absolute

:54:45.:54:47.

You don't have much of a say in the mayor and yet the mayor has

:54:48.:54:52.

quite a big say over Redditch and all the other

:54:53.:54:54.

I think, in Redditch, we are at the table

:54:55.:54:57.

of the Combined Authority as a non-constituent member, but we are

:54:58.:55:00.

at that table and for us that is very important and cross-party

:55:01.:55:04.

Labour run our town, but both the Labour leader

:55:05.:55:07.

and I agree that that is the right thing to be doing.

:55:08.:55:09.

I think we would think the right thing

:55:10.:55:12.

to do is for the mayor, when the mayor is elected whoever that may

:55:13.:55:15.

be, is that we would want to be having conversations for that mayor

:55:16.:55:18.

to come and explain to us what he's doing and make sure that we get

:55:19.:55:22.

The money that is coming, the ?30 million for the next

:55:23.:55:33.

30 years every year that's coming into a region,

:55:34.:55:35.

is massive amounts of money that we would want

:55:36.:55:37.

I think I might be getting mixed up with the millions and the billions!

:55:38.:55:42.

You mentioned at the beginning, laughingly of course, Tristram,

:55:43.:55:45.

partnerships, cross-border deals and so on, but isn't it a sort of cash

:55:46.:55:50.

partnerships, cross-border deals and so on, but isn't it a sort of tacit

:55:51.:55:53.

admission that there is a bit of a danger that the piggy in the

:55:54.:55:56.

middle thing for your city and North Staffordshire, between

:55:57.:55:58.

the powerhouse and the engine, where the mayors will be?

:55:59.:56:01.

Will we have been historically been squeezed between

:56:02.:56:03.

This is part of the geography

:56:04.:56:05.

We make strong connections with East Cheshire,

:56:06.:56:08.

strong connections with Staffordshire...

:56:09.:56:10.

And indeed Stoke has its own sort of aborted experience of a mayor...?

:56:11.:56:13.

Stoke has a complicated history with mayors.

:56:14.:56:16.

But what I would say is this that we have been very well

:56:17.:56:19.

represented in Brussels by our Member of the European

:56:20.:56:21.

Parliament, Sean Simon, and we will be supporting him

:56:22.:56:23.

And there is a choice involving Beverly Nielsen and...

:56:24.:56:28.

And Andy Street! It will be brilliant!

:56:29.:56:32.

Those interviews we saw, which re-recorded and Southwater

:56:33.:56:36.

Those interviews we saw, which we recorded in Southwater

:56:37.:56:38.

and Telford, showed a remarkable lack of public engagement.

:56:39.:56:42.

The same is true of others. We recorded about 12 of them.

:56:43.:56:45.

What you think is enquire about you and all the candidates to try

:56:46.:56:48.

The level of engagement puts risk of the Combined

:56:49.:56:53.

If people don't feel the own that authority,

:56:54.:56:57.

it's there for them, and they are part of it,

:56:58.:56:59.

then I think it really risks not succeeding,

:57:00.:57:01.

so we need to look at whoever is near and including

:57:02.:57:05.

so we need to look at whoever is mayor and including

:57:06.:57:07.

all members of the public, wherever they may be,

:57:08.:57:10.

and involving them, because what you've shown

:57:11.:57:18.

is respresentative stood across the whole region.

:57:19.:57:20.

People don't know what this is for, don't feel involved

:57:21.:57:22.

and, to be fair, they haven't been so far.

:57:23.:57:25.

A very low turnout, low engagement, would raise real concerns

:57:26.:57:27.

about the legitimacy, the mandate, of whoever becomes...?

:57:28.:57:29.

That doesn't massively concerned me that, when we started the Police

:57:30.:57:32.

and Crime Commissioners, the first elections

:57:33.:57:33.

This has got to be, the people have got to understand what it is and get

:57:34.:57:38.

The problem with those initial Police and Crime elections

:57:39.:57:41.

was the total ban on electioneering, of funding for electioneering,

:57:42.:57:44.

just people thought they would organically be interested

:57:45.:57:46.

in Police and Crime Commissioners. which was a harder sell!

:57:47.:57:48.

True. Must leave it there for the moment.

:57:49.:57:50.

Thank you very much indeed, and particular thanks to you, James,

:57:51.:57:53.

for being with us today. Thank you.

:57:54.:57:54.

of the political developments making the news here over the past week.

:57:55.:57:59.

Our round-up in 60 Seconds is brought to us today

:58:00.:58:01.

The Freedom of Birmingham is to be awarded to the 21 people who died

:58:02.:58:09.

The city council announced the gesture on the

:58:10.:58:13.

More patients will be treated at home and services will be merged

:58:14.:58:18.

as part of cuts of ?300 million across the NHS in Herefordshire

:58:19.:58:21.

Cannock Chase MP, Amanda Milling, took to her local rail line

:58:22.:58:25.

after complaints about overcrowding, swelled by large numbers

:58:26.:58:29.

of seasonal workers at Amazon's Rugeley warehouse.

:58:30.:58:39.

Labour's Mayoral candidate, Sion Simon, condemned the Chancellor

:58:40.:58:41.

for ignoring his call to make the M6 toll free for motorists

:58:42.:58:44.

And Birmingham's Castle Vale estate has been praised for

:58:45.:58:47.

rescuing council services threatened by budget cuts.

:58:48.:58:48.

The local Tenants Association saved the local library now

:58:49.:58:50.

they've been asked to run the estate's swimming pool.

:58:51.:59:06.

Nothing could stop us, we carried on and made this happen.

:59:07.:59:15.

Well done those people. Isn't that an echo of the Big Society, dare I

:59:16.:59:22.

say it, that if people value a local amenity, cherish it, get involved

:59:23.:59:25.

pressure might greatly see it preserved, but I would make the case

:59:26.:59:33.

for librarians. People with a deep knowledge of literature and how to

:59:34.:59:35.

get young people to read, it is get young people to read, it is

:59:36.:59:40.

really valuable, so great it is preserved, but I also think

:59:41.:59:45.

librarians have a really valuable contribution as not everyone can run

:59:46.:59:49.

a library. I've mentioned the Big Society, which was derided widely at

:59:50.:59:55.

the time as a way of delivering public local services on the cheap?

:59:56.:59:58.

I think they are doing a really good job and we are seeing in all

:59:59.:00:01.

committees this happening more and more and it's not a bad thing

:00:02.:00:05.

because people get involved in their local communities and people like to

:00:06.:00:10.

see that and I think it is really good, David Cameron was derided by

:00:11.:00:13.

it but it has come to show neither one of the big things that is

:00:14.:00:20.

brilliant is that it is in ship -- citizenship service he introduced.

:00:21.:00:22.

It is important for people who would never get that experience, young

:00:23.:00:26.

people, so a big thing of the Big Society. We must leave it there.

:00:27.:00:29.

My thanks to Karen Lumley and Tristram Hunt.

:00:30.:00:33.

pound broadband boost, the Culture Secretary

:00:34.:00:35.

and Staffordshire Moorlands MP, Karen Bradley, will be piloting

:00:36.:00:38.

the Digital Economy Bill through its remaining stages tomorrow.

:00:39.:00:41.

It establishes a legal right to minimum download speeds,

:00:42.:00:47.

with service providers compensating customers if they're too slow.

:00:48.:00:51.

have got to make sure London is open. Thank you. Andrew, back to

:00:52.:01:00.

you. Is Theresa May serious

:01:01.:01:06.

about curbing executive pay? Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's

:01:07.:01:08.

successor as Ukip leader? And can the Lib Dems pull off

:01:09.:01:12.

a by-election upset in Richmond? So,,, on pay talk about the

:01:13.:01:40.

executive of what executives get compared to the average worker in

:01:41.:01:43.

the company, giving shareholders real power to vote down pay rises if

:01:44.:01:47.

they don't like them, which is pretty much what Ed Miliband

:01:48.:01:50.

proposed in the general election in 2015. Is she serious about this? She

:01:51.:02:00.

is very serious, and the Tory party probably does owe Ed Miliband an

:02:01.:02:03.

apology for trashing his ideas and 2015 and then putting them all up

:02:04.:02:07.

for votes in November 20 16. She is very serious, and this all comes

:02:08.:02:11.

back to her desperate fear that unless capitalism reforms itself and

:02:12.:02:14.

becomes more acceptable to the just about managing or even 78% of the

:02:15.:02:21.

country who are not earning vast wealth at anywhere near the figures

:02:22.:02:24.

you see in the City, serious things will happen and the political sense

:02:25.:02:30.

of trust will implode. She has already been bartered down by her

:02:31.:02:34.

own Cabinet on this. She wanted to go further and make workers on the

:02:35.:02:37.

board mandatory. They have managed to stop that. What will her fallback

:02:38.:02:44.

position be on workers on the board if she is not able to get it into

:02:45.:02:52.

some claw? We would like to have workers on the board, but whatever

:02:53.:02:56.

they do on the board there will have no voting powers on the board. When

:02:57.:03:00.

you look at what was leaked out over the weekend, that we should know the

:03:01.:03:04.

ratio of the top to the average and that shareholders who own the

:03:05.:03:10.

company should determine, in the end, the highest-paid salaries, you

:03:11.:03:16.

kind of think, what could the possible objection be to any of

:03:17.:03:22.

that? Two things. One, I agree with Tom that she is deadly serious about

:03:23.:03:27.

this agenda and it comes under the banner, that sentence in the party

:03:28.:03:31.

conference speech about "It's time to focus on the good that government

:03:32.:03:36.

can do". She is by instinct more of an interventionist than Cameron and

:03:37.:03:40.

Osborne. But she is incredibly cautious, whether it is through the

:03:41.:03:43.

internal constraints of opposition within Cabinet, or her own small C

:03:44.:03:50.

Conservative caution in implementing this stuff. Part of the problem is

:03:51.:03:54.

the practicalities. George Osborne commission will Hutton to do a

:03:55.:03:59.

report which came out with similar proposals, which were never

:04:00.:04:02.

implemented. It is quite hard to enforce. It will antagonise business

:04:03.:04:08.

leaders when she's to woo them again in this Brexit furore. So there are

:04:09.:04:12.

problems with it. And judging by what has happened so far, my guess

:04:13.:04:17.

is that the aim will be genuinely bold and interesting, and the

:04:18.:04:20.

implementation incredibly cautious. Does it matter if she annoys some

:04:21.:04:25.

business leaders? Isn't that part of her brand? Will there be problems on

:04:26.:04:31.

the Tory backbenches with it? I think there will be and I think it

:04:32.:04:34.

does matter at this sensitive time for when we are positioning

:04:35.:04:37.

ourselves as a country and whether we are going to brand ourselves as a

:04:38.:04:42.

great city of business, implementing quite interventionist policies. Any

:04:43.:04:45.

suggestion that the government can control how much the top earners

:04:46.:04:50.

get, I think would be received in a hostile way. What would be wrong

:04:51.:04:54.

with the shareholders, who own the company, determining the pay of the

:04:55.:04:59.

higher hands, the executives? Morally, you can absolutely make

:05:00.:05:01.

that argument but to business leaders, they will not like it.

:05:02.:05:07.

Ultimately, this will not come down to more than a row of beans. There

:05:08.:05:10.

was a huge debate about whether there should be quotas of women on

:05:11.:05:13.

boards. In the end, that never happened. All we get is figures. But

:05:14.:05:20.

quotas of women, for which there is a case and a case against too, that

:05:21.:05:26.

was a government mandate. This is not, this is simply empowering

:05:27.:05:29.

shareholders who own the company to determine the pay of the people they

:05:30.:05:36.

hire. There is a strong moral argument for it. Strong economic

:05:37.:05:40.

argument. But the Tory backbenchers will not like this. The downside is

:05:41.:05:46.

that this is a world where companies are thinking about upping sticks to

:05:47.:05:50.

Europe. No, they say they are thinking of that. Not one has done

:05:51.:05:55.

it yet. Others have made massive investments in this country. But is

:05:56.:06:00.

it not an incentive for those making these threats to actually do it? In

:06:01.:06:07.

Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated by Brussels. It is a vivid way of

:06:08.:06:12.

showing you are addressing the issue of inequality. I think she will go

:06:13.:06:21.

with it, but let's move on to Ukip. I think we will get the result

:06:22.:06:26.

tomorrow. There are the top three candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne

:06:27.:06:33.

Evans and on my right, John Reid Evans. One of them will be the next

:06:34.:06:37.

leader. Who is going to win? It is widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall

:06:38.:06:42.

and is probably the outcome that the Labour Party fears most. Paul

:06:43.:06:46.

Nuttall is a very effective communicator. He is not a household

:06:47.:06:50.

name, far from it, but people will begin to learn more about him and

:06:51.:06:56.

find that he is actually quite a strong leader. Can people Ukip

:06:57.:07:01.

together again after this shambolic period since the referendum? If

:07:02.:07:09.

anyone can, he can. And his brand of working collar, Northern Ukip is the

:07:10.:07:13.

thing that will work for them. Do you think he is the favourite? It

:07:14.:07:19.

would be amazing if he doesn't win. His greatest problem will be getting

:07:20.:07:23.

Nigel Farage off his back. He is going on a speaking tour of North

:07:24.:07:30.

America. A long speaking tour. Ukip won this EU referendum. They had the

:07:31.:07:33.

chance to hoover up these discontented Labour voters in the

:07:34.:07:38.

north, and all he has done is associated with Ukip with Farage.

:07:39.:07:42.

But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip and will be glad to be hands of it.

:07:43.:07:48.

The bigger problem is money. If it is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know

:07:49.:07:54.

the results yet, but he is the favourite, if it is him, I would

:07:55.:07:57.

suggest that that is the result Labour is frightened of most. To be

:07:58.:08:01.

honest, I think they are frightened of Ukip whatever the result.

:08:02.:08:05.

Possibly with good cause. The reason I qualify that is that what you call

:08:06.:08:12.

a shambles over the summer has been something that goes beyond Monty

:08:13.:08:15.

Python in its absurdity and madness. That calls into question whether it

:08:16.:08:21.

can function as a political party when you have what has gone on. The

:08:22.:08:26.

number of leaders itself has been an act of madness. In a context which

:08:27.:08:33.

should be fantastic for them. They have won a referendum. There is a

:08:34.:08:37.

debate about what form Brexit should take, it is a dream for them, and

:08:38.:08:41.

they have gone bonkers. If he can turn it around, I agree that he is a

:08:42.:08:45.

powerful media communicator, and then it is a threat to Labour. But

:08:46.:08:49.

he has got to show that first. Indeed. The by-election in Richmond

:08:50.:08:54.

in south-west London, called by Zac Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it

:08:55.:08:59.

turned out to be a by-election about Heathrow, or has it turned into a

:09:00.:09:03.

by-election, which is what the Lib Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will

:09:04.:09:09.

know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems win, they will turn it into an EU

:09:10.:09:12.

referendum. It seems incredibly close now. The Lib Dems are swamping

:09:13.:09:18.

Richmond. They had 1000 activists there yesterday. That is getting on

:09:19.:09:21.

for 100th of the population of the place! If the Lib Dems don't manage

:09:22.:09:26.

to win on Thursday and don't manage to turn it into an EU referendum

:09:27.:09:30.

despite all their efforts, it will probably be a disaster for the

:09:31.:09:37.

party. What do you hear, Isabel? I hear that the Lib Dems have

:09:38.:09:42.

absolutely swamped the constituency, but this may backfire. I saw a bit

:09:43.:09:46.

of this myself, living in Witney, when the Lib Dems also swamped and

:09:47.:09:51.

people began to get fed up of their aggressive tactics. I understand

:09:52.:09:57.

that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously optimistic that he will pull this

:09:58.:10:03.

one off. Quick stab at the result? I don't know. But we are entering a

:10:04.:10:11.

period when by-elections are acquiring significant again. If the

:10:12.:10:15.

Lib Dems were to make a game, it would breathe life into that near

:10:16.:10:21.

moribund party like nothing else. Similarly, other by-elections in

:10:22.:10:24.

this shapeless political world we are in are going to become

:10:25.:10:29.

significant. We don't know if we are covering it live on Thursday night

:10:30.:10:32.

yet because we have to find at the time they are going to declare.

:10:33.:10:38.

Richmond are quite late in declaring, but if it is in the early

:10:39.:10:42.

hours, that is fine. If it is on breakfast television, they be not. I

:10:43.:10:47.

want to show you this. Michael Gove was on the Andrew Marr Show this

:10:48.:10:52.

morning. In the now notorious comment that I made, I was actually

:10:53.:10:56.

cut off in midstream, as politicians often. The point I made was not that

:10:57.:10:58.

all experts are that is nonsense. Expert engineers, doctors and

:10:59.:11:09.

physicists are not wrong. But there is a subclass of experts,

:11:10.:11:12.

particularly social scientists, who have to reflect on some of the

:11:13.:11:17.

mistakes they have made. And the recession, which was predicted that

:11:18.:11:20.

we would have if we voted to leave, has gone like a puff of smoke. So

:11:21.:11:27.

economic experts, he talks about. The Chancellor has based all of his

:11:28.:11:30.

forward predictions in this Autumn Statement on the economic expert

:11:31.:11:37.

forecasters. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said it is 50-50,

:11:38.:11:43.

which is the toss of a coin. But what was he supposed to do? You

:11:44.:11:47.

would ideally have to have a Budget that had several sets of scenarios,

:11:48.:11:52.

and that is impossible. Crystal ball territory. But you do wonder if

:11:53.:12:00.

governments are right to do so much of their fiscal projections on the

:12:01.:12:03.

basis of forecasts which turn out to be wrong. They have nothing else to

:12:04.:12:09.

go on. The Treasury forecast is to be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast

:12:10.:12:14.

will prove not to be exact. As you say, they admitted that they are

:12:15.:12:16.

navigating through fog at the moment. But he also added that it

:12:17.:12:22.

was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit, even if you accept that these

:12:23.:12:26.

forecasts might be wrong, is causing such a level of uncertainty. He put

:12:27.:12:33.

the figure at 60 billion. That could come to haunt him. He hasn't got a

:12:34.:12:44.

clue. He admitted it. He said, Parliament mandates me to come up

:12:45.:12:46.

with something, so I am going to give you a number. But I wouldn't

:12:47.:12:50.

trust it if I were you, he basically said. I agree with you. The man who

:12:51.:12:55.

borrowed 122 billion more off the back of a coin toss was Philip

:12:56.:12:59.

Hammond. It begs the question, what does that say about the confidence

:13:00.:13:03.

Philip Hammond has in his own government's renegotiation? Not a

:13:04.:13:09.

huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond quoted the OBR figures. He basically

:13:10.:13:13.

said, this is uncertain and it looks bad, and on we go with it. It is a

:13:14.:13:19.

very interesting situation, he said. He was for Remain and he works in a

:13:20.:13:24.

department which regards it as a disaster, whatever everyone else

:13:25.:13:29.

thinks. I have just been told we are covering the by-election. We are

:13:30.:13:32.

part of the constitution. Jo Coburn will have more

:13:33.:13:34.

Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here on BBC One

:13:35.:13:36.

next Sunday at 11. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:37.:13:40.

it's the Sunday Politics. to signify the Africans

:13:41.:14:14.

who were here.

:14:15.:14:19.

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