11/12/2016 Sunday Politics West Midlands

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

Talk about a growth industry. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

The House of Lords is now over 800-strong.

But only one in 20 have genuine links with our part of the country.

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

something about British politics today, that this is the most

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

that want to thwart the will of the people,

go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

out of the Government by opposition day motions.

I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

you for what you are doing, party members around

the country saying thank you for what you are doing

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

and we want to see a Conservative government being

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

how her stance is going down with the voters.

If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

She should stick for what she believes in,

but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

Although now we know not everyone is invited.

And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

for an early Christmas present at this week's

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

fewer voters than the reported number of local

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

under his leadership, including a by-election win

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

Hello again. Politics where you are.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.

This one's getting bigger all the time.

The House of Lords is now over 800-strong.

But only one in 20 have genuine links with our part of the country.

What price democracy if we don't punch our weight in the Upper House?

We have managed to find one local life peer who'll be joining us

Along with: Margot James, the Business Minister

And Rob Flello, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent South.

He was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to Charlie Falconer

when he was Lord Chancellor in the Labour Government.

And we'll also be talking about increasing security concerns

But we begin with one courtroom drama where the storyline concerns

"Brexit means Business", for our learned friends,

Not the least of them, the Attorney-General

and Warwickshire MP, Jeremy Wright.

As the Cabinet's Principal Legal Adviser, he's at the sharp end

of the Government's argument that they, rather than Parliament,

have the power to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty,

setting Britain on course to leave the European Union.

The triggering of Article 50 we say will not be an exercise

of prerogative power on a whim or out of a clear blue sky.

It is the logical conclusion of a process

in which Parliament has been fully and consciously involved.

A process in which Parliament resolved to put a

clear and decisive question about our nation's future

to the British people and in which Parliament

expected the government to act on the answer they gave.

Paul Farrelly, Labour MP for Newcastle under mine was one and all

the mag only local MP who voted for those negotiations accepting Theresa

May 's timetable. He is a brave man, given the 60% of his constituents

voted to leave the European Union, overwhelmingly nostalgia voted to

leave. You'll have to ask him for his view on it. My view is the

British people are spoken and since that reference I have said we need

to get on with Brexit a body to get up at an appropriate timetable and

triggering article 15 get the best deal not just for Stoke on Trent but

for the whole country but particularly for Stoke on Trent. The

position that your party adopted during the referendum and one that

Mr Farrelly used deliberately stood very strongly is that the partition

between your party and your core supporters in places where you

desperately need to rebuild support. Paul will have his reasons for

voting the way that he feels. In terms of Labour's position I think

for me it is very clear. My view is that we have to abide by the will of

the British people. We need to make sure that we get a really good deal

out of this and we have to hold the government to account because quite

frankly having this uptake, -- uptake --opaque Brexit means Brexit

business is nonsense. We have to have an overview. Are you are closet

remoaner in a bedsit government? --Brexit. We will play our part

after we have left the European Union on important matters like

security and environment. The primers said she will trigger

article 50 by the end of March and that she intends to do and that we

are all continued to doing. I'm very pleased that last week Parliament

voted to do just that. Briefly, what about the Supreme Court ruling? It

seems to me it is much political as a legal argument. Jeremy Wright is

doing his best. I'm sure he thinks we have a good case and with

appearing on that basis and we will have to see what the decision is in

January. Parliament has spoken as well as the people and we will be

triggering article 50 by the end of March.

It's the world's second-largest decision-making body, surpassed only

by China's National People's Congress.

There are well over 800 members of the House

of Lords, including 45 from David Cameron's

But from our part of the country, just three dozen.

Pro rata, we'd have more than twice as many.

Our Political reporter James Bovill has been treading the well-carpeted

A Bill will be introduced to remove the right of hereditary peers

to sit and vote in the House of Lords.

It will be the first stage in a process of reform to make

the House of Lords more democratic and

Most peers are still white and male and they are still

appointed rather than elected and they now

outnumber MPs by more than

And even they agree that has to change.

Including the Lord Speaker, and former Sutton Coldfield

I think it is too big to have over 800 members here.

It is bigger than the House of Commons.

I also think it stands on the way of people

understanding the good things, the very good things the House of

The debating chamber behind me would need an extra 600 seats

just to fit in 800 or so peers but there is no consensus yet how to

bring those numbers down, some feel that should

be a retirement age, say

But the most radical proposal of all is

scrapping the current system altogether.

The Electoral Reform Society says the time for action is

At a time when the number of MPs is going to be reduced from 650

we think this is the time for reform, not only to tackle the size

of the chamber, which is vast, but also to tackle its democratic

legitimacy by introducing elections for the House of Lords.

Most Liberal Democrats agree that peers should be

elected which could help to address the Lords' London-centric

Baroness Burt of Solihull is one of just 36 peers with

I think it is more difficult for people from the

regions and I don't think that we get a strong

If we had an elected upper chamber we

Peers voted unanimously on Monday to pursue plans

for a smaller second chamber - led by former South

another former West Midlands MP - thinks numbers could be halved

and in her iconic boom she had a clear message

to former prime ministers who have stuffed the Lords

It has no place in a Parliamentary system.

The abolition of their untrammelled power is long overdue.

Many hope reducing the size of the Lords is just the first step

But with Brexit negotiations looming, I've been told

this won't be a priority for Theresa May's government.

Until it is, the Lords is likely to remain a little bit congested.

And we're also joined here today by the Labour peer Lord Snape.

As Peter Snape, he nursed what was then the distinctly

marginal seat of West Bromwich East through no fewer than seven general

His front bench roles have included Transport,

It is one thing to the House of Lords to agree that are too many but

it is another thing to agree what to do about it. It was a lot bigger

before tourney player got rid of about 600 hereditary peers in 1999.

But it is still predominantly white and advanced in age and metropolitan

London. I am quite an advanced in age but not metropolitan London I'm

glad to say. Successive prime ministers have tried to do something

about it and it is changing, albeit slowly and not working for many

people. What is the answer? A cull of people who do not turn up very

often an age limit? The problem about an age limit is anybody who

recommends age limit recommends 15 years older than the art. A cull of

people who do not turn up. What say? -- five years older than they are. I

have been in politics 40 years and have taught by the House of Lords

all that time and nobody seems to know what to do about it. Baroness

Burt says it is hard to hear and Midlands boys, do you agree? The

peers that there are certainly pulling away the West Midlands but

parts of the Royal commission would actually come up with a solution are

partly hereditary and partly elected House, something much smaller.

Harold Wilson was very much in favour of rock emissions but he says

that ministers set up years the report but at the end that is not

very much. If they're going to do something about not happen in the

near future. Ed Miliband makes the point it is not just

unrepresentative geographically but also social and economic identity of

the country. He has a point though it was not a great success when he

was leader of my party. I do not feel the need to defend and 100% of

the time. You work Parliament the major secretary that the land Lord

Chancellor. Since then despite the abolition of hereditary peers they

look at the plate is not changed very much at all. I would properly

go further than Peter and say that the Midlands punch above their

weight in terms of 3% representation but you'd think was that are present

in the work they do. It also shines light on the bigger issue. At the

same time is a proposal to cut the number of MPs, coincidentally when

will have more work to do over Brexit. , it is OK to cut the number

of elected MPs but also OK to stuff the House of Lords will of cronies

of David Cameron. There was a huge number notoriously in David Cameron

's resignation honours. Digby Jones makes the point that with Brexit in

mind the government will rue the day they did their climb-down in the

forming the Lords because you have 100 plus Liberal Democrats in the

Lords who will be determined to stop the Brexit stop it wherever they

can. I don't think the last government climb-down on the House

of Lords, they were repeated on the reform. They have shelved David

Cameron 's reforms now in order to normalise the relationship with

Brexit in mind. I think we have enough to do in government and

Parliament in securing the best possible outcome to the Brexit

negotiations as well as implement in the rest of our manifesto and could

probably do without a lot of distraction on debating the future

of the House of Lords. Do you think this is a landmark moment are one of

those tokenistic sports that was last week would it seem like a

moment of unanimity but it is not actually binding. I spent quite a

few years and it is extremely time consuming. Unthinkable I said would

be more apt to say should we not be doing something more important

rather than gazing at our own enables and talking about reform.

The point of rock made by David Cameron, he stuffed the Playschool

of his own cronies. I'm amazed that larded adenosine cat is not sat on

Street cat. There is a lot of Street cat. There is a lot of

hypocrisy about what happens in the House of Lords and its future. If I

was asked to put any money in a change in the near future I would

say it is not very likely. If I was cynical I could say that the good

Lord ship is arguing for the status quo. I'm a realist and realistic

about how you know that governments embark on reform of Parliament,

whether the House of Lords of eternal reform in a host of Commons

at their peril. -- internal reform. Most people and West Bromwich would

see the main topic of House of Lords reform is not one of the separate of

mean 27 years. How many times have you given the government a bloody

nose of a dreadful legislation? We can unite in a way that can't be

done in the more swept House of Commons in the way that we did with

what losing the money. -- wept. what losing the money. -- wept.

Plasma --whipped. I think it is important for the House of Lords is

elected that they do not thwart the manifesto of the governing party. I

think they have a right to the view on other matters but a manifesto

will of the elected House. Jack will of the elected House. Jack

Straw said when he was in government it would take 50 years to reform the

government. I would suspect there government. I would suspect there

will not be around to see it. If it happens, I do not think it will be

in my time. We return now to the lower House,

because disturbing figures show most of our region's MPs have been

personally abused or threatened Some have even been

physically attacked. These are just some of the worrying

findings of an exclusive BBC Midlands investigation,

six months after the Yorkshire MP Jo Cox was killed by one

of her constituents. The studio hot seat's

working overtime today. Because we're now joined

by our reporter Tom Turrell who's The level of abuse that our MPs

suffer is astonishing. For some it is incredible. We have a knife

pulled one of MPs and be a death threats and one MP is so scared for

her safety and that of her office staff that she has put a panic room

in her constituency office. I contacted all 63 MPs across the West

Midlands and 55 responded. Of those 90% said they had been abused or

threatened on social media. 75% said they had been abused or threatened

in person and five had been physically attacked. Why you were

talking to those 55 MPs, what are the telly about what they feel about

all this? Some feel very scared, actually. Some said they are scared

for themselves and also their staff. One Labour MP in the patch, she says

she has received tens of thousands of e-mails abusing her. One person

said they wanted to see her hand from the gallows. That said I did

speak to others who said I don't just leave too much abuse. I'm

perhaps not a social media and I don't get abuse that much. Gisela

Stuart, Birmingham MP for Labour, disagrees.

The recent very unpleasant incident at

the railway station where somebody just came up

And it was only because of the intervention of some other

passengers who walked up to him and said look,

you really ought to behave and walked him off.

There have been attacks in the past. How does no compare? We don't know

for sure. The statistics I have been looking at show that it is happening

a lot. If you look at the time of the IRA, it happened back then. We

know in the year 2000 Cheltenham MP Nigel Jones was attacked so it is

not completely uncommon. It has happened in the past and really we

just don't know. Have you been threatened and abuse than

intimidated? I have had some abuse on Facebook when I undertook a

campaign against activities of the English national defence league of

whatever they're called in Dudley. That was unpleasant but doable with.

I think that the free things that I think that the free things that

have exacerbated this and made it a worse problem than it used to be.

First of all social media enabling bullying types of people to hide

behind anonymity. I think that is giving them a voice that they never

had before. I was very glad to see that man from Yeovil and present for

what he said which was quickly unacceptable and I would like to see

more cases like that. I think also the Brexit referendum was difficult.

A lot of the heat they got into that, the extreme positions taken by

both sides added to it. And then beyond that I think there have been

many other incidences of individuals being attacked and I think we really

have got to do something about it. Rob, have you been the receiving end

of the sort of thing? Unfortunately there was a procession of MPs are

fair game and that has been around for nearly 12 years I've been a

member of Parliament. It is often felt MPs are when you put yourself

in the public limelight you are fair game to be abused. Other colleagues

have had far worse than anything I might have experienced. Jess

Phillips has had a panic room. Is there a particular issue for women?

I think there is absolutely. Anything that sets the aside in any

way, whether it be a religious background or a particular

organisation in may been involved. I think those impacts and MPs

day-to-day work because you can't be as open and accessible. Is there a

women's issue in their charisma that is a lot of misogyny and social

media. It is unacceptable. I think a lot of Labour MPs as suffering from

the Momentum group which is another development exacerbating it. Tom,

what are your reflections? We want our MPs to listen to us and we want

our MPs to talk to us. For that to happen you need openness and that

openness I'm afraid comes with some rest.

Our wound up in 60 seconds. -- round-up.

The Shropshire home where Jeremy Corbyn grew up is for sale.

Yew Tree Manor near Newport has a price tag of ?650,000.

Dudley Labour MP Ian Austin has helped set up a new All Party

Parliamentary Group to speak up for the West Midlands

along with Stafford's Conservative MP Jeremy Lefroy.

Newspaper columnist Tim Montgomerie clashed with Shrewsbury's MP

on the Daily Politics accusing him of being an apologist

This is what the likes of Mr Montgomerie and others,

the other neo-cons, I was called last week by a right-wing think tank

in America a Trojan horse for the Kremlin.

Rail services came under fire from backbench Tories -

firstly overcrowding on the London Midland

operated Chase Line service was highlighted by Cannock MP

And Gloucester MP Richard Graham got stuck

Only three of the 60 services a day between Bristol and Birmingham

To conservatives on the warpath. I was shocked to was only three

stopping trains from Gloucester to Birmingham. I think that will be

looked into. When franchises come up for renewal that sort of thing

should be lobbied for in no uncertain terms. Is it a good thing

that Chris Grayling, but Transport Secretary is trying to bring Network

Rail and the private operators together? Bringing Network Rail back

to the 19th century, know I don't think it is a good thing. We so

under the last Labour government when, Railtrack fell apart to be

rescued by the government and lives in the east coast main line that was

returning ?1 billion to the government has gone back into public

hands -- private hands. It shows that franchise that are working for

the customers need to be brought back into the public centre the Max

factor. -- are not working. My thanks to Margot

James and Rob Flello. Finally from me, Britain's biggest

local authority is in the spotlight Selly Oak's Labour MP Steve McCabe

opens a debate on what he calls the Government's "catastrophic

funding plans" for It's cutting ?78 million

from services, while increasing We'll have more

on this, next Sunday. This though is where

we re-join Andrew Neil. still the biggest factor. We are

running out of time. Now, Foreign Secretary

Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -

yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia

of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"

in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention

of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime

minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon

was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,

the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply

we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,

and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over

the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing

in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people

to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way

it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left

people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia

and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been

in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,

so how's he been received? Our security correspondent

Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson

was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time

since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary

visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of

it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a

tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I

have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss

about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,

I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage

limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of

smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they

are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten

and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is

in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few

minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting

the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him

according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their

security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they

are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that

has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris

Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's

supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have

had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr

Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is

in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words

Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running

up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by

some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the

gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic

mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will

reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in

building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities

that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15

hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven

warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain

withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and

off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.

In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,

but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big

emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties

with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,

I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a

large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with

Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the

conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you

very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr

Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there

has just given us a really important development, or explained what the

British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big

time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is

fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this

is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's

role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the

Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in

a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about

it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason

that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are

pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level

power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.

What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big

story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we

are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,

most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights

country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,

unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is

the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty

unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits

open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will

go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be

involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe

and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our

knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever

they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that

is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are

the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are

leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am

trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got

yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of

Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word

like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?

I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back

in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,

the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in

the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S

one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in

the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because

it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that

these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what

FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has

been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't

have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it

needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be

turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and

the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.

You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the

Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that

the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a

speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

# We're going to have a party tonight

# I'm going to find that boy underneath the mistletoe