11/12/2016 Sunday Politics West Midlands


11/12/2016

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

:00:41.:00:43.

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

:00:44.:00:46.

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

:00:47.:00:50.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

:00:51.:00:53.

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

:00:54.:00:56.

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

:00:57.:01:08.

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

:01:09.:01:11.

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

:01:12.:01:14.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

:01:15.:01:16.

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

:01:17.:01:18.

Talk about a growth industry. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

:01:19.:01:30.

The House of Lords is now over 800-strong.

:01:31.:01:32.

But only one in 20 have genuine links with our part of the country.

:01:33.:01:47.

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

:01:48.:01:51.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

:01:52.:01:53.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

:01:54.:01:55.

by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

:01:56.:01:57.

It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

:01:58.:01:59.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

:02:00.:02:06.

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

:02:07.:02:12.

But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

:02:13.:02:18.

morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

:02:19.:02:21.

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

:02:22.:02:24.

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

:02:25.:02:29.

Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

:02:30.:02:33.

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

:02:34.:02:36.

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

:02:37.:02:42.

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

:02:43.:02:49.

She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

:02:50.:02:55.

Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

:02:56.:03:05.

But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

:03:06.:03:09.

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

:03:10.:03:11.

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

:03:12.:03:21.

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

:03:22.:03:27.

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

:03:28.:03:32.

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

:03:33.:03:34.

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

:03:35.:03:37.

If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

:03:38.:03:51.

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

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And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

:03:57.:04:00.

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

:04:01.:04:03.

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

:04:04.:04:19.

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

:04:20.:04:22.

something about British politics today, that this is the most

:04:23.:04:26.

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

:04:27.:04:30.

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

:04:31.:04:32.

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

:04:33.:04:38.

spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

:04:39.:04:42.

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

:04:43.:04:45.

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

:04:46.:04:53.

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

:04:54.:04:58.

she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

:04:59.:05:05.

you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

:05:06.:05:13.

high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

:05:14.:05:17.

You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

:05:18.:05:23.

Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

:05:24.:05:29.

as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

:05:30.:05:34.

Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

:05:35.:05:38.

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

:05:39.:05:44.

which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

:05:45.:05:50.

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

:05:51.:05:54.

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

:05:55.:05:59.

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

:06:00.:06:03.

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

:06:04.:06:07.

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

:06:08.:06:11.

Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

:06:12.:06:15.

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

:06:16.:06:20.

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

:06:21.:06:24.

together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

:06:25.:06:27.

whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

:06:28.:06:33.

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

:06:34.:06:39.

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

:06:40.:06:44.

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

:06:45.:06:48.

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

:06:49.:06:54.

split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

:06:55.:06:59.

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

:07:00.:07:04.

the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

:07:05.:07:08.

the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

:07:09.:07:12.

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

:07:13.:07:16.

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

:07:17.:07:21.

you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

:07:22.:07:27.

wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

:07:28.:07:31.

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

:07:32.:07:35.

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

:07:36.:07:41.

a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

:07:42.:07:45.

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

:07:46.:07:48.

comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

:07:49.:07:56.

with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

:07:57.:07:59.

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

:08:00.:08:05.

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

:08:06.:08:10.

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

:08:11.:08:17.

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

:08:18.:08:21.

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

:08:22.:08:24.

sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

:08:25.:08:30.

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

:08:31.:08:34.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

:08:35.:08:39.

pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

:08:40.:08:44.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

:08:45.:08:46.

of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

:08:47.:08:48.

And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

:08:49.:08:51.

the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

:08:52.:08:54.

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

:08:55.:08:56.

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

:08:57.:08:57.

it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

:08:58.:09:00.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

:09:01.:09:09.

Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

:09:10.:09:12.

on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

:09:13.:09:15.

Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

:09:16.:09:16.

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

:09:17.:09:18.

for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

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We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

:09:25.:09:33.

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

:09:34.:09:35.

that want to thwart the will of the people,

:09:36.:09:39.

go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

:09:40.:09:44.

I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

:09:45.:09:49.

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

:09:50.:09:52.

out of the Government by opposition day motions.

:09:53.:09:54.

I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

:09:55.:09:57.

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

:09:58.:10:01.

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

:10:02.:10:09.

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

:10:10.:10:12.

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

:10:13.:10:15.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

:10:16.:10:18.

you for what you are doing, party members around

:10:19.:10:20.

the country saying thank you for what you are doing

:10:21.:10:22.

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

:10:23.:10:26.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

:10:27.:10:28.

you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

:10:29.:10:31.

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

:10:32.:10:34.

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

:10:35.:10:41.

Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

:10:42.:10:44.

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

:10:45.:10:47.

if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

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I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

:10:51.:10:56.

That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

:10:57.:10:58.

party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

:10:59.:11:01.

Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

:11:02.:11:06.

she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

:11:07.:11:09.

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

:11:10.:11:11.

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

:11:12.:11:14.

who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

:11:15.:11:16.

The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

:11:17.:11:20.

and we want to see a Conservative government being

:11:21.:11:22.

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

:11:23.:11:30.

on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

:11:31.:11:33.

Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

:11:34.:11:36.

how her stance is going down with the voters.

:11:37.:11:38.

If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

:11:39.:11:40.

Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

:11:41.:11:46.

especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

:11:47.:11:49.

so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

:11:50.:11:52.

She should stick for what she believes in,

:11:53.:11:54.

but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

:11:55.:11:56.

She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

:11:57.:12:12.

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

:12:13.:12:15.

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

:12:16.:12:17.

Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

:12:18.:12:22.

this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

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Although now we know not everyone is invited.

:12:25.:12:32.

And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

:12:33.:12:38.

was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

:12:39.:12:41.

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

:12:42.:12:44.

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

:12:45.:12:47.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

:12:48.:12:52.

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

:12:53.:12:58.

leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

:12:59.:13:01.

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

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speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

:13:09.:13:14.

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

:13:15.:13:19.

somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

:13:20.:13:22.

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

:13:23.:13:25.

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

:13:26.:13:31.

ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

:13:32.:13:37.

serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

:13:38.:13:39.

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

:13:40.:13:43.

your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

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in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

:13:50.:13:54.

not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

:13:55.:13:58.

Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

:13:59.:14:02.

she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

:14:03.:14:05.

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

:14:06.:14:08.

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

:14:09.:14:13.

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

:14:14.:14:18.

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

:14:19.:14:21.

throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

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my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

:14:27.:14:29.

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

:14:30.:14:35.

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

:14:36.:14:39.

Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

:14:40.:14:44.

reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

:14:45.:14:48.

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

:14:49.:14:55.

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

:14:56.:15:00.

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

:15:01.:15:07.

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

:15:08.:15:11.

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

:15:12.:15:13.

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

:15:14.:15:18.

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

:15:19.:15:29.

That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

:15:30.:15:37.

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

:15:38.:15:42.

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

:15:43.:15:46.

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

:15:47.:15:50.

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

:15:51.:15:55.

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

:15:56.:15:59.

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

:16:00.:16:03.

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

:16:04.:16:07.

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

:16:08.:16:14.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

:16:15.:16:18.

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

:16:19.:16:28.

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

:16:29.:16:34.

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

:16:35.:16:38.

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

:16:39.:16:41.

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

:16:42.:16:47.

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

:16:48.:16:52.

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

:16:53.:16:56.

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

:16:57.:16:59.

campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

:17:00.:17:04.

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

:17:05.:17:10.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

:17:11.:17:15.

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

:17:16.:17:19.

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

:17:20.:17:25.

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

:17:26.:17:29.

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

:17:30.:17:32.

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

:17:33.:17:37.

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

:17:38.:17:43.

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

:17:44.:17:51.

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

:17:52.:17:58.

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

:17:59.:18:04.

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

:18:05.:18:10.

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

:18:11.:18:17.

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

:18:18.:18:21.

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

:18:22.:18:28.

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

:18:29.:18:32.

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

:18:33.:18:36.

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

:18:37.:18:44.

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

:18:45.:18:48.

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

:18:49.:18:52.

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

:18:53.:18:57.

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

:18:58.:19:01.

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

:19:02.:19:09.

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

:19:10.:19:12.

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

:19:13.:19:20.

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

:19:21.:19:26.

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

:19:27.:19:32.

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

:19:33.:19:36.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

:19:37.:19:42.

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

:19:43.:19:48.

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

:19:49.:19:57.

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

:19:58.:20:01.

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

:20:02.:20:05.

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

:20:06.:20:09.

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

:20:10.:20:13.

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

:20:14.:20:21.

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

:20:22.:20:25.

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

:20:26.:20:29.

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

:20:30.:20:37.

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

:20:38.:20:43.

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

:20:44.:20:47.

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

:20:48.:20:50.

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

:20:51.:20:57.

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

:20:58.:21:04.

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

:21:05.:21:08.

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

:21:09.:21:12.

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

:21:13.:21:18.

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

:21:19.:21:23.

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

:21:24.:21:26.

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

:21:27.:21:31.

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

:21:32.:21:37.

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

:21:38.:21:49.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

:21:50.:21:55.

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

:21:56.:22:02.

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

:22:03.:22:05.

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

:22:06.:22:13.

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

:22:14.:22:21.

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

:22:22.:22:26.

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

:22:27.:22:31.

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

:22:32.:22:35.

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

:22:36.:22:37.

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

:22:38.:22:41.

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

:22:42.:22:43.

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

:22:44.:22:45.

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

:22:46.:22:48.

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

:22:49.:22:51.

for an early Christmas present at this week's

:22:52.:22:54.

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

:22:55.:22:55.

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

:22:56.:23:04.

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

:23:05.:23:06.

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

:23:07.:23:11.

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

:23:12.:23:13.

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

:23:14.:23:17.

fewer voters than the reported number of local

:23:18.:23:19.

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

:23:20.:23:23.

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

:23:24.:23:29.

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

:23:30.:23:33.

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

:23:34.:23:45.

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

:23:46.:23:49.

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

:23:50.:23:57.

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

:23:58.:24:00.

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

:24:01.:24:03.

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

:24:04.:24:06.

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

:24:07.:24:09.

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

:24:10.:24:13.

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

:24:14.:24:14.

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

:24:15.:24:17.

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

:24:18.:24:24.

under his leadership, including a by-election win

:24:25.:24:26.

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

:24:27.:24:28.

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

:24:29.:24:35.

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

:24:36.:24:39.

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

:24:40.:24:41.

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

:24:42.:24:52.

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

:24:53.:24:57.

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

:24:58.:25:00.

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

:25:01.:25:04.

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

:25:05.:25:09.

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

:25:10.:25:13.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

:25:14.:25:15.

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

:25:16.:25:16.

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

:25:17.:25:25.

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

:25:26.:25:30.

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

:25:31.:25:36.

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

:25:37.:25:45.

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

:25:46.:25:51.

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

:25:52.:25:56.

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

:25:57.:26:01.

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

:26:02.:26:10.

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

:26:11.:26:13.

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

:26:14.:26:19.

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

:26:20.:26:24.

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

:26:25.:26:28.

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

:26:29.:26:32.

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

:26:33.:26:37.

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

:26:38.:26:40.

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

:26:41.:26:46.

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

:26:47.:26:53.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

:26:54.:26:58.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

:26:59.:27:04.

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

:27:05.:27:09.

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

:27:10.:27:14.

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

:27:15.:27:18.

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

:27:19.:27:23.

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

:27:24.:27:28.

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

:27:29.:27:33.

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

:27:34.:27:40.

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

:27:41.:27:42.

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

:27:43.:27:47.

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

:27:48.:27:53.

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

:27:54.:27:57.

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

:27:58.:28:03.

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

:28:04.:28:08.

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

:28:09.:28:12.

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

:28:13.:28:17.

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

:28:18.:28:23.

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

:28:24.:28:28.

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

:28:29.:28:31.

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

:28:32.:28:39.

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

:28:40.:28:41.

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

:28:42.:28:48.

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

:28:49.:28:52.

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

:28:53.:28:56.

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

:28:57.:29:00.

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

:29:01.:29:06.

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

:29:07.:29:11.

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

:29:12.:29:15.

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

:29:16.:29:18.

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

:29:19.:29:24.

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

:29:25.:29:30.

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

:29:31.:29:37.

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

:29:38.:29:41.

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

:29:42.:29:46.

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

:29:47.:29:53.

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

:29:54.:29:55.

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

:29:56.:30:06.

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

:30:07.:30:10.

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

:30:11.:30:16.

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

:30:17.:30:21.

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

:30:22.:30:25.

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

:30:26.:30:29.

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

:30:30.:30:34.

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

:30:35.:30:39.

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

:30:40.:30:43.

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

:30:44.:30:49.

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

:30:50.:30:54.

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

:30:55.:30:58.

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

:30:59.:31:05.

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

:31:06.:31:11.

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

:31:12.:31:21.

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

:31:22.:31:26.

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

:31:27.:31:32.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

:31:33.:31:35.

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

:31:36.:31:38.

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

:31:39.:31:42.

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

:31:43.:31:47.

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

:31:48.:31:50.

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

:31:51.:31:56.

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

:31:57.:32:01.

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

:32:02.:32:06.

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

:32:07.:32:11.

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

:32:12.:32:18.

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

:32:19.:32:22.

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

:32:23.:32:29.

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

:32:30.:32:32.

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

:32:33.:32:38.

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

:32:39.:32:42.

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

:32:43.:32:47.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

:32:48.:32:53.

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

:32:54.:33:01.

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

:33:02.:33:05.

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

:33:06.:33:12.

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

:33:13.:33:16.

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

:33:17.:33:20.

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

:33:21.:33:24.

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

:33:25.:33:26.

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

:33:27.:33:30.

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

:33:31.:33:35.

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

:33:36.:33:40.

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

:33:41.:33:45.

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

:33:46.:33:53.

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

:33:54.:34:00.

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

:34:01.:34:06.

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

:34:07.:34:10.

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

:34:11.:34:15.

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

:34:16.:34:22.

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

:34:23.:34:26.

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

:34:27.:34:31.

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

:34:32.:34:35.

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

:34:36.:34:40.

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

:34:41.:34:43.

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

:34:44.:34:49.

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

:34:50.:34:54.

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

:34:55.:34:57.

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

:34:58.:35:00.

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

:35:01.:35:06.

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

:35:07.:35:10.

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

:35:11.:35:17.

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

:35:18.:35:20.

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

:35:21.:35:27.

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

:35:28.:35:32.

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

:35:33.:35:37.

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

:35:38.:35:43.

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

:35:44.:35:48.

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

:35:49.:35:52.

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

:35:53.:35:56.

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

:35:57.:35:58.

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

:35:59.:36:04.

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

:36:05.:36:07.

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

:36:08.:36:11.

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

:36:12.:36:17.

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

:36:18.:36:21.

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

:36:22.:36:25.

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

:36:26.:36:29.

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

:36:30.:36:33.

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

:36:34.:36:36.

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

:36:37.:36:42.

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

:36:43.:36:46.

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

:36:47.:36:48.

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

:36:49.:36:53.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

:36:54.:36:58.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:36:59.:37:00.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:01.:37:02.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

:37:03.:37:06.

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

:37:07.:37:08.

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

:37:09.:37:10.

Hello again. Politics where you are.

:37:11.:37:21.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.

:37:22.:37:24.

This one's getting bigger all the time.

:37:25.:37:29.

The House of Lords is now over 800-strong.

:37:30.:37:31.

But only one in 20 have genuine links with our part of the country.

:37:32.:37:35.

What price democracy if we don't punch our weight in the Upper House?

:37:36.:37:39.

We have managed to find one local life peer who'll be joining us

:37:40.:37:46.

Along with: Margot James, the Business Minister

:37:47.:37:52.

And Rob Flello, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent South.

:37:53.:37:57.

He was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to Charlie Falconer

:37:58.:37:59.

when he was Lord Chancellor in the Labour Government.

:38:00.:38:01.

And we'll also be talking about increasing security concerns

:38:02.:38:05.

But we begin with one courtroom drama where the storyline concerns

:38:06.:38:13.

"Brexit means Business", for our learned friends,

:38:14.:38:18.

Not the least of them, the Attorney-General

:38:19.:38:25.

and Warwickshire MP, Jeremy Wright.

:38:26.:38:27.

As the Cabinet's Principal Legal Adviser, he's at the sharp end

:38:28.:38:32.

of the Government's argument that they, rather than Parliament,

:38:33.:38:34.

have the power to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty,

:38:35.:38:37.

setting Britain on course to leave the European Union.

:38:38.:38:39.

The triggering of Article 50 we say will not be an exercise

:38:40.:38:42.

of prerogative power on a whim or out of a clear blue sky.

:38:43.:38:47.

It is the logical conclusion of a process

:38:48.:38:53.

in which Parliament has been fully and consciously involved.

:38:54.:38:57.

A process in which Parliament resolved to put a

:38:58.:38:59.

clear and decisive question about our nation's future

:39:00.:39:01.

to the British people and in which Parliament

:39:02.:39:03.

expected the government to act on the answer they gave.

:39:04.:39:14.

Paul Farrelly, Labour MP for Newcastle under mine was one and all

:39:15.:39:23.

the mag only local MP who voted for those negotiations accepting Theresa

:39:24.:39:32.

May 's timetable. He is a brave man, given the 60% of his constituents

:39:33.:39:36.

voted to leave the European Union, overwhelmingly nostalgia voted to

:39:37.:39:41.

leave. You'll have to ask him for his view on it. My view is the

:39:42.:39:46.

British people are spoken and since that reference I have said we need

:39:47.:39:51.

to get on with Brexit a body to get up at an appropriate timetable and

:39:52.:39:55.

triggering article 15 get the best deal not just for Stoke on Trent but

:39:56.:39:58.

for the whole country but particularly for Stoke on Trent. The

:39:59.:40:04.

position that your party adopted during the referendum and one that

:40:05.:40:08.

Mr Farrelly used deliberately stood very strongly is that the partition

:40:09.:40:12.

between your party and your core supporters in places where you

:40:13.:40:16.

desperately need to rebuild support. Paul will have his reasons for

:40:17.:40:20.

voting the way that he feels. In terms of Labour's position I think

:40:21.:40:25.

for me it is very clear. My view is that we have to abide by the will of

:40:26.:40:29.

the British people. We need to make sure that we get a really good deal

:40:30.:40:33.

out of this and we have to hold the government to account because quite

:40:34.:40:44.

frankly having this uptake, -- uptake --opaque Brexit means Brexit

:40:45.:40:54.

business is nonsense. We have to have an overview. Are you are closet

:40:55.:41:09.

remoaner in a bedsit government? --Brexit. We will play our part

:41:10.:41:17.

after we have left the European Union on important matters like

:41:18.:41:20.

security and environment. The primers said she will trigger

:41:21.:41:24.

article 50 by the end of March and that she intends to do and that we

:41:25.:41:29.

are all continued to doing. I'm very pleased that last week Parliament

:41:30.:41:34.

voted to do just that. Briefly, what about the Supreme Court ruling? It

:41:35.:41:38.

seems to me it is much political as a legal argument. Jeremy Wright is

:41:39.:41:46.

doing his best. I'm sure he thinks we have a good case and with

:41:47.:41:49.

appearing on that basis and we will have to see what the decision is in

:41:50.:41:53.

January. Parliament has spoken as well as the people and we will be

:41:54.:41:58.

triggering article 50 by the end of March.

:41:59.:42:02.

It's the world's second-largest decision-making body, surpassed only

:42:03.:42:04.

by China's National People's Congress.

:42:05.:42:07.

There are well over 800 members of the House

:42:08.:42:09.

of Lords, including 45 from David Cameron's

:42:10.:42:11.

But from our part of the country, just three dozen.

:42:12.:42:16.

Pro rata, we'd have more than twice as many.

:42:17.:42:19.

Our Political reporter James Bovill has been treading the well-carpeted

:42:20.:42:23.

A Bill will be introduced to remove the right of hereditary peers

:42:24.:42:35.

to sit and vote in the House of Lords.

:42:36.:42:40.

It will be the first stage in a process of reform to make

:42:41.:42:52.

the House of Lords more democratic and

:42:53.:42:53.

Most peers are still white and male and they are still

:42:54.:43:00.

appointed rather than elected and they now

:43:01.:43:01.

outnumber MPs by more than

:43:02.:43:03.

And even they agree that has to change.

:43:04.:43:16.

Including the Lord Speaker, and former Sutton Coldfield

:43:17.:43:18.

I think it is too big to have over 800 members here.

:43:19.:43:22.

It is bigger than the House of Commons.

:43:23.:43:24.

I also think it stands on the way of people

:43:25.:43:29.

understanding the good things, the very good things the House of

:43:30.:43:32.

The debating chamber behind me would need an extra 600 seats

:43:33.:43:37.

just to fit in 800 or so peers but there is no consensus yet how to

:43:38.:43:41.

bring those numbers down, some feel that should

:43:42.:43:43.

be a retirement age, say

:43:44.:43:44.

But the most radical proposal of all is

:43:45.:43:48.

scrapping the current system altogether.

:43:49.:43:50.

The Electoral Reform Society says the time for action is

:43:51.:43:52.

At a time when the number of MPs is going to be reduced from 650

:43:53.:43:57.

we think this is the time for reform, not only to tackle the size

:43:58.:44:01.

of the chamber, which is vast, but also to tackle its democratic

:44:02.:44:07.

legitimacy by introducing elections for the House of Lords.

:44:08.:44:10.

Most Liberal Democrats agree that peers should be

:44:11.:44:11.

elected which could help to address the Lords' London-centric

:44:12.:44:15.

Baroness Burt of Solihull is one of just 36 peers with

:44:16.:44:19.

I think it is more difficult for people from the

:44:20.:44:26.

regions and I don't think that we get a strong

:44:27.:44:29.

If we had an elected upper chamber we

:44:30.:44:33.

Peers voted unanimously on Monday to pursue plans

:44:34.:44:37.

for a smaller second chamber - led by former South

:44:38.:44:40.

another former West Midlands MP - thinks numbers could be halved

:44:41.:44:48.

and in her iconic boom she had a clear message

:44:49.:44:51.

to former prime ministers who have stuffed the Lords

:44:52.:44:53.

It has no place in a Parliamentary system.

:44:54.:44:59.

The abolition of their untrammelled power is long overdue.

:45:00.:45:01.

Many hope reducing the size of the Lords is just the first step

:45:02.:45:12.

But with Brexit negotiations looming, I've been told

:45:13.:45:15.

this won't be a priority for Theresa May's government.

:45:16.:45:19.

Until it is, the Lords is likely to remain a little bit congested.

:45:20.:45:28.

And we're also joined here today by the Labour peer Lord Snape.

:45:29.:45:34.

As Peter Snape, he nursed what was then the distinctly

:45:35.:45:37.

marginal seat of West Bromwich East through no fewer than seven general

:45:38.:45:40.

His front bench roles have included Transport,

:45:41.:45:44.

It is one thing to the House of Lords to agree that are too many but

:45:45.:45:54.

it is another thing to agree what to do about it. It was a lot bigger

:45:55.:46:00.

before tourney player got rid of about 600 hereditary peers in 1999.

:46:01.:46:05.

But it is still predominantly white and advanced in age and metropolitan

:46:06.:46:11.

London. I am quite an advanced in age but not metropolitan London I'm

:46:12.:46:15.

glad to say. Successive prime ministers have tried to do something

:46:16.:46:19.

about it and it is changing, albeit slowly and not working for many

:46:20.:46:23.

people. What is the answer? A cull of people who do not turn up very

:46:24.:46:27.

often an age limit? The problem about an age limit is anybody who

:46:28.:46:33.

recommends age limit recommends 15 years older than the art. A cull of

:46:34.:46:42.

people who do not turn up. What say? -- five years older than they are. I

:46:43.:46:49.

have been in politics 40 years and have taught by the House of Lords

:46:50.:46:53.

all that time and nobody seems to know what to do about it. Baroness

:46:54.:47:05.

Burt says it is hard to hear and Midlands boys, do you agree? The

:47:06.:47:09.

peers that there are certainly pulling away the West Midlands but

:47:10.:47:14.

parts of the Royal commission would actually come up with a solution are

:47:15.:47:19.

partly hereditary and partly elected House, something much smaller.

:47:20.:47:23.

Harold Wilson was very much in favour of rock emissions but he says

:47:24.:47:28.

that ministers set up years the report but at the end that is not

:47:29.:47:31.

very much. If they're going to do something about not happen in the

:47:32.:47:35.

near future. Ed Miliband makes the point it is not just

:47:36.:47:39.

unrepresentative geographically but also social and economic identity of

:47:40.:47:45.

the country. He has a point though it was not a great success when he

:47:46.:47:50.

was leader of my party. I do not feel the need to defend and 100% of

:47:51.:47:54.

the time. You work Parliament the major secretary that the land Lord

:47:55.:47:58.

Chancellor. Since then despite the abolition of hereditary peers they

:47:59.:48:01.

look at the plate is not changed very much at all. I would properly

:48:02.:48:06.

go further than Peter and say that the Midlands punch above their

:48:07.:48:13.

weight in terms of 3% representation but you'd think was that are present

:48:14.:48:16.

in the work they do. It also shines light on the bigger issue. At the

:48:17.:48:21.

same time is a proposal to cut the number of MPs, coincidentally when

:48:22.:48:24.

will have more work to do over Brexit. , it is OK to cut the number

:48:25.:48:33.

of elected MPs but also OK to stuff the House of Lords will of cronies

:48:34.:48:38.

of David Cameron. There was a huge number notoriously in David Cameron

:48:39.:48:41.

's resignation honours. Digby Jones makes the point that with Brexit in

:48:42.:48:49.

mind the government will rue the day they did their climb-down in the

:48:50.:48:54.

forming the Lords because you have 100 plus Liberal Democrats in the

:48:55.:48:57.

Lords who will be determined to stop the Brexit stop it wherever they

:48:58.:49:04.

can. I don't think the last government climb-down on the House

:49:05.:49:09.

of Lords, they were repeated on the reform. They have shelved David

:49:10.:49:16.

Cameron 's reforms now in order to normalise the relationship with

:49:17.:49:21.

Brexit in mind. I think we have enough to do in government and

:49:22.:49:24.

Parliament in securing the best possible outcome to the Brexit

:49:25.:49:29.

negotiations as well as implement in the rest of our manifesto and could

:49:30.:49:33.

probably do without a lot of distraction on debating the future

:49:34.:49:36.

of the House of Lords. Do you think this is a landmark moment are one of

:49:37.:49:40.

those tokenistic sports that was last week would it seem like a

:49:41.:49:44.

moment of unanimity but it is not actually binding. I spent quite a

:49:45.:49:53.

few years and it is extremely time consuming. Unthinkable I said would

:49:54.:49:57.

be more apt to say should we not be doing something more important

:49:58.:50:00.

rather than gazing at our own enables and talking about reform.

:50:01.:50:04.

The point of rock made by David Cameron, he stuffed the Playschool

:50:05.:50:09.

of his own cronies. I'm amazed that larded adenosine cat is not sat on

:50:10.:50:14.

Street cat. There is a lot of Street cat. There is a lot of

:50:15.:50:21.

hypocrisy about what happens in the House of Lords and its future. If I

:50:22.:50:26.

was asked to put any money in a change in the near future I would

:50:27.:50:31.

say it is not very likely. If I was cynical I could say that the good

:50:32.:50:37.

Lord ship is arguing for the status quo. I'm a realist and realistic

:50:38.:50:43.

about how you know that governments embark on reform of Parliament,

:50:44.:50:46.

whether the House of Lords of eternal reform in a host of Commons

:50:47.:50:53.

at their peril. -- internal reform. Most people and West Bromwich would

:50:54.:50:58.

see the main topic of House of Lords reform is not one of the separate of

:50:59.:51:05.

mean 27 years. How many times have you given the government a bloody

:51:06.:51:10.

nose of a dreadful legislation? We can unite in a way that can't be

:51:11.:51:14.

done in the more swept House of Commons in the way that we did with

:51:15.:51:17.

what losing the money. -- wept. what losing the money. -- wept.

:51:18.:51:30.

Plasma --whipped. I think it is important for the House of Lords is

:51:31.:51:34.

elected that they do not thwart the manifesto of the governing party. I

:51:35.:51:39.

think they have a right to the view on other matters but a manifesto

:51:40.:51:42.

will of the elected House. Jack will of the elected House. Jack

:51:43.:51:46.

Straw said when he was in government it would take 50 years to reform the

:51:47.:51:48.

government. I would suspect there government. I would suspect there

:51:49.:51:56.

will not be around to see it. If it happens, I do not think it will be

:51:57.:51:57.

in my time. We return now to the lower House,

:51:58.:52:03.

because disturbing figures show most of our region's MPs have been

:52:04.:52:06.

personally abused or threatened Some have even been

:52:07.:52:14.

physically attacked. These are just some of the worrying

:52:15.:52:19.

findings of an exclusive BBC Midlands investigation,

:52:20.:52:22.

six months after the Yorkshire MP Jo Cox was killed by one

:52:23.:52:24.

of her constituents. The studio hot seat's

:52:25.:52:26.

working overtime today. Because we're now joined

:52:27.:52:31.

by our reporter Tom Turrell who's The level of abuse that our MPs

:52:32.:52:46.

suffer is astonishing. For some it is incredible. We have a knife

:52:47.:52:50.

pulled one of MPs and be a death threats and one MP is so scared for

:52:51.:52:55.

her safety and that of her office staff that she has put a panic room

:52:56.:53:01.

in her constituency office. I contacted all 63 MPs across the West

:53:02.:53:05.

Midlands and 55 responded. Of those 90% said they had been abused or

:53:06.:53:11.

threatened on social media. 75% said they had been abused or threatened

:53:12.:53:14.

in person and five had been physically attacked. Why you were

:53:15.:53:20.

talking to those 55 MPs, what are the telly about what they feel about

:53:21.:53:26.

all this? Some feel very scared, actually. Some said they are scared

:53:27.:53:29.

for themselves and also their staff. One Labour MP in the patch, she says

:53:30.:53:36.

she has received tens of thousands of e-mails abusing her. One person

:53:37.:53:43.

said they wanted to see her hand from the gallows. That said I did

:53:44.:53:46.

speak to others who said I don't just leave too much abuse. I'm

:53:47.:53:49.

perhaps not a social media and I don't get abuse that much. Gisela

:53:50.:54:01.

Stuart, Birmingham MP for Labour, disagrees.

:54:02.:54:03.

The recent very unpleasant incident at

:54:04.:54:04.

the railway station where somebody just came up

:54:05.:54:06.

And it was only because of the intervention of some other

:54:07.:54:11.

passengers who walked up to him and said look,

:54:12.:54:13.

you really ought to behave and walked him off.

:54:14.:54:15.

There have been attacks in the past. How does no compare? We don't know

:54:16.:54:28.

for sure. The statistics I have been looking at show that it is happening

:54:29.:54:33.

a lot. If you look at the time of the IRA, it happened back then. We

:54:34.:54:40.

know in the year 2000 Cheltenham MP Nigel Jones was attacked so it is

:54:41.:54:43.

not completely uncommon. It has happened in the past and really we

:54:44.:54:49.

just don't know. Have you been threatened and abuse than

:54:50.:54:55.

intimidated? I have had some abuse on Facebook when I undertook a

:54:56.:55:00.

campaign against activities of the English national defence league of

:55:01.:55:06.

whatever they're called in Dudley. That was unpleasant but doable with.

:55:07.:55:10.

I think that the free things that I think that the free things that

:55:11.:55:13.

have exacerbated this and made it a worse problem than it used to be.

:55:14.:55:17.

First of all social media enabling bullying types of people to hide

:55:18.:55:25.

behind anonymity. I think that is giving them a voice that they never

:55:26.:55:30.

had before. I was very glad to see that man from Yeovil and present for

:55:31.:55:36.

what he said which was quickly unacceptable and I would like to see

:55:37.:55:40.

more cases like that. I think also the Brexit referendum was difficult.

:55:41.:55:47.

A lot of the heat they got into that, the extreme positions taken by

:55:48.:55:57.

both sides added to it. And then beyond that I think there have been

:55:58.:56:00.

many other incidences of individuals being attacked and I think we really

:56:01.:56:06.

have got to do something about it. Rob, have you been the receiving end

:56:07.:56:10.

of the sort of thing? Unfortunately there was a procession of MPs are

:56:11.:56:15.

fair game and that has been around for nearly 12 years I've been a

:56:16.:56:19.

member of Parliament. It is often felt MPs are when you put yourself

:56:20.:56:22.

in the public limelight you are fair game to be abused. Other colleagues

:56:23.:56:29.

have had far worse than anything I might have experienced. Jess

:56:30.:56:36.

Phillips has had a panic room. Is there a particular issue for women?

:56:37.:56:41.

I think there is absolutely. Anything that sets the aside in any

:56:42.:56:47.

way, whether it be a religious background or a particular

:56:48.:56:50.

organisation in may been involved. I think those impacts and MPs

:56:51.:56:53.

day-to-day work because you can't be as open and accessible. Is there a

:56:54.:56:59.

women's issue in their charisma that is a lot of misogyny and social

:57:00.:57:06.

media. It is unacceptable. I think a lot of Labour MPs as suffering from

:57:07.:57:11.

the Momentum group which is another development exacerbating it. Tom,

:57:12.:57:18.

what are your reflections? We want our MPs to listen to us and we want

:57:19.:57:23.

our MPs to talk to us. For that to happen you need openness and that

:57:24.:57:25.

openness I'm afraid comes with some rest.

:57:26.:57:36.

Our wound up in 60 seconds. -- round-up.

:57:37.:57:42.

The Shropshire home where Jeremy Corbyn grew up is for sale.

:57:43.:57:45.

Yew Tree Manor near Newport has a price tag of ?650,000.

:57:46.:57:47.

Dudley Labour MP Ian Austin has helped set up a new All Party

:57:48.:57:50.

Parliamentary Group to speak up for the West Midlands

:57:51.:57:53.

along with Stafford's Conservative MP Jeremy Lefroy.

:57:54.:57:57.

Newspaper columnist Tim Montgomerie clashed with Shrewsbury's MP

:57:58.:58:02.

on the Daily Politics accusing him of being an apologist

:58:03.:58:11.

This is what the likes of Mr Montgomerie and others,

:58:12.:58:15.

the other neo-cons, I was called last week by a right-wing think tank

:58:16.:58:24.

in America a Trojan horse for the Kremlin.

:58:25.:58:26.

Rail services came under fire from backbench Tories -

:58:27.:58:28.

firstly overcrowding on the London Midland

:58:29.:58:29.

operated Chase Line service was highlighted by Cannock MP

:58:30.:58:31.

And Gloucester MP Richard Graham got stuck

:58:32.:58:34.

Only three of the 60 services a day between Bristol and Birmingham

:58:35.:58:38.

To conservatives on the warpath. I was shocked to was only three

:58:39.:58:59.

stopping trains from Gloucester to Birmingham. I think that will be

:59:00.:59:04.

looked into. When franchises come up for renewal that sort of thing

:59:05.:59:09.

should be lobbied for in no uncertain terms. Is it a good thing

:59:10.:59:15.

that Chris Grayling, but Transport Secretary is trying to bring Network

:59:16.:59:17.

Rail and the private operators together? Bringing Network Rail back

:59:18.:59:23.

to the 19th century, know I don't think it is a good thing. We so

:59:24.:59:27.

under the last Labour government when, Railtrack fell apart to be

:59:28.:59:31.

rescued by the government and lives in the east coast main line that was

:59:32.:59:34.

returning ?1 billion to the government has gone back into public

:59:35.:59:40.

hands -- private hands. It shows that franchise that are working for

:59:41.:59:43.

the customers need to be brought back into the public centre the Max

:59:44.:59:46.

factor. -- are not working. My thanks to Margot

:59:47.:59:56.

James and Rob Flello. Finally from me, Britain's biggest

:59:57.:59:58.

local authority is in the spotlight Selly Oak's Labour MP Steve McCabe

:59:59.:00:01.

opens a debate on what he calls the Government's "catastrophic

:00:02.:00:05.

funding plans" for It's cutting ?78 million

:00:06.:00:06.

from services, while increasing We'll have more

:00:07.:00:09.

on this, next Sunday. This though is where

:00:10.:00:12.

we re-join Andrew Neil. still the biggest factor. We are

:00:13.:00:13.

running out of time. Now, Foreign Secretary

:00:14.:00:15.

Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -

:00:16.:00:29.

yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia

:00:30.:00:32.

of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"

:00:33.:00:34.

in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention

:00:35.:00:36.

of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime

:00:37.:00:39.

minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon

:00:40.:00:42.

was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,

:00:43.:00:49.

the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply

:00:50.:00:56.

we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,

:00:57.:00:59.

and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over

:01:00.:01:02.

the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing

:01:03.:01:04.

in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people

:01:05.:01:06.

to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way

:01:07.:01:14.

it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left

:01:15.:01:17.

people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia

:01:18.:01:19.

and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been

:01:20.:01:28.

in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,

:01:29.:01:30.

so how's he been received? Our security correspondent

:01:31.:01:32.

Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson

:01:33.:01:34.

was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time

:01:35.:01:44.

since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary

:01:45.:01:49.

visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of

:01:50.:01:55.

it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a

:01:56.:01:59.

tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I

:02:00.:02:04.

have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss

:02:05.:02:09.

about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,

:02:10.:02:14.

I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage

:02:15.:02:17.

limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of

:02:18.:02:23.

smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they

:02:24.:02:27.

are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten

:02:28.:02:31.

and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is

:02:32.:02:36.

in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few

:02:37.:02:40.

minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting

:02:41.:02:46.

the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him

:02:47.:02:49.

according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their

:02:50.:02:52.

security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they

:02:53.:02:58.

are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that

:02:59.:03:01.

has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris

:03:02.:03:05.

Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's

:03:06.:03:10.

supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have

:03:11.:03:15.

had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr

:03:16.:03:23.

Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is

:03:24.:03:31.

in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words

:03:32.:03:37.

Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running

:03:38.:03:43.

up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by

:03:44.:03:48.

some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the

:03:49.:03:54.

gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic

:03:55.:04:00.

mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will

:04:01.:04:05.

reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in

:04:06.:04:12.

building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities

:04:13.:04:15.

that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15

:04:16.:04:18.

hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven

:04:19.:04:23.

warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain

:04:24.:04:27.

withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and

:04:28.:04:32.

off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.

:04:33.:04:37.

In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,

:04:38.:04:45.

but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big

:04:46.:04:48.

emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties

:04:49.:04:53.

with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,

:04:54.:04:59.

I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a

:05:00.:05:06.

large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with

:05:07.:05:08.

Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the

:05:09.:05:14.

conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you

:05:15.:05:16.

very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr

:05:17.:05:26.

Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there

:05:27.:05:32.

has just given us a really important development, or explained what the

:05:33.:05:36.

British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big

:05:37.:05:40.

time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is

:05:41.:05:44.

fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this

:05:45.:05:48.

is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's

:05:49.:05:53.

role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the

:05:54.:05:58.

Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in

:05:59.:06:03.

a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about

:06:04.:06:08.

it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason

:06:09.:06:12.

that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are

:06:13.:06:18.

pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level

:06:19.:06:22.

power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.

:06:23.:06:26.

What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big

:06:27.:06:33.

story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we

:06:34.:06:37.

are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,

:06:38.:06:42.

most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights

:06:43.:06:47.

country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,

:06:48.:06:53.

unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is

:06:54.:07:01.

the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty

:07:02.:07:05.

unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits

:07:06.:07:10.

open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will

:07:11.:07:14.

go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be

:07:15.:07:19.

involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe

:07:20.:07:22.

and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our

:07:23.:07:27.

knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever

:07:28.:07:33.

they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that

:07:34.:07:37.

is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are

:07:38.:07:42.

the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are

:07:43.:07:46.

leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am

:07:47.:07:51.

trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got

:07:52.:07:56.

yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of

:07:57.:08:01.

Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word

:08:02.:08:05.

like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?

:08:06.:08:10.

I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back

:08:11.:08:14.

in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,

:08:15.:08:16.

the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in

:08:17.:08:22.

the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S

:08:23.:08:28.

one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in

:08:29.:08:33.

the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because

:08:34.:08:40.

it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that

:08:41.:08:44.

these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what

:08:45.:08:51.

FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has

:08:52.:08:56.

been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't

:08:57.:09:02.

have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it

:09:03.:09:12.

needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be

:09:13.:09:16.

turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and

:09:17.:09:20.

the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.

:09:21.:09:25.

You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the

:09:26.:09:28.

Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that

:09:29.:09:32.

the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a

:09:33.:09:38.

speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.

:09:39.:09:40.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

:09:41.:09:53.

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

:09:54.:09:55.

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

:09:56.:10:09.

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

:10:10.:10:15.

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

:10:16.:10:19.

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

:10:20.:10:24.

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

:10:25.:10:28.

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

:10:29.:10:34.

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

:10:35.:10:40.

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

:10:41.:10:44.

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

:10:45.:10:52.

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

:10:53.:10:57.

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

:10:58.:11:01.

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

:11:02.:11:07.

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

:11:08.:11:10.

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

:11:11.:11:14.

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

:11:15.:11:19.

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

:11:20.:11:23.

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

:11:24.:11:28.

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

:11:29.:11:36.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

:11:37.:11:40.

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

:11:41.:11:46.

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

:11:47.:11:51.

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

:11:52.:11:56.

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

:11:57.:12:00.

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

:12:01.:12:04.

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

:12:05.:12:07.

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

:12:08.:12:11.

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

:12:12.:12:15.

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

:12:16.:12:21.

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

:12:22.:12:25.

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

:12:26.:12:31.

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

:12:32.:12:34.

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

:12:35.:12:38.

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

:12:39.:12:43.

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

:12:44.:12:48.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

:12:49.:12:54.

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

:12:55.:12:58.

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

:12:59.:13:02.

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

:13:03.:13:07.

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

:13:08.:13:14.

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

:13:15.:13:20.

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

:13:21.:13:24.

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

:13:25.:13:26.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

:13:27.:13:31.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

:13:32.:13:37.

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

:13:38.:13:40.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

:13:41.:13:43.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:44.:14:19.

# We're going to have a party tonight

:14:20.:14:45.

# I'm going to find that boy underneath the mistletoe

:14:46.:14:50.

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