Browse content similar to 21/05/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
Labour attacks Conservative plans for social care and to means-test | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
So can Jeremy Corbyn eat into the Tory lead | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
Theresa May says her party's manifesto is all about fairness. | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
We'll be speaking to a Conservative cabinet minister about the plans. | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
The polls have always shown healthy leads for the Conservatives. | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
And in the Midlands: is Labour narrowing the gap? | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
We've seen hospital issues turn politics upside down - | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
now Telford feels the pulling power of Shropshire's tug-of-war over A | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :00:49. | :01:04. | |
panel in the business: Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
and Steve Richards - they'll be tweeting throughout | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
the programme, and you can get involved by using | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says pensioners will be up to ?330 a year | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
worse off under plans outlined in the Conservative manifesto. | :01:19. | :01:30. | |
The Work Pensions Secretary Damian Green has said his party will not | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
rethink their plans to fund social care in England. Under the plans in | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
the Conservative manifesto, nobody with assets of less than ?100,000, | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
would have to pay for care. Labour has attacked the proposal, and John | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor, said this morning that | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
there needs to be more cross-party consensus. | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
That's why we supported Dilnot, but we also supported | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
Because we've got to have something sustainable over generations, | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
so that's why we've said to the Conservative Party, | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
Let's go back to that cross-party approach that actually | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
I just feel we've all been let down by what's come | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
Sam, is Labour beginning to get their argument across? What we had | :02:13. | :02:23. | |
last week was bluntly what felt like not very Lynton Crosby approved | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
Conservative manifesto. What I mean by that is that it looks like there | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
are things that will cause political difficulties for the party over this | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
campaign. I've been talking to MPs and ministers who acknowledge that | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
the social care plan is coming up on the doorstep. It has cut through | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
very quickly, and it is worrying and deterring some voters. Not just | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
pensioners, that people who are looking to inherit in the future. | :02:51. | :03:01. | |
They are all asking how much they could lose that they wouldn't have | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
lost before. A difficult question for the party to answer, given that | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
they don't want to give too much away now. Was this a mistake, or a | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
sign of the Conservatives' confidence? It has the hallmarks of | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
something that has been cobbled together in a very unnaturally short | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
time frame for putting a manifesto together. We have had mixed messages | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
from the Tory MPs who have been out on the airwaves this morning as to | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
whether they will consult on it whether it is just a starting point. | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
That said, there is still three weeks to go, and most of the Tory | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
party this morning feel this is a little light turbulence rather than | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
anything that leaves the destination of victory in doubt. It it flips the | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
normal politics. The Tories are going to make people who have a | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
reasonable amount of assets pay for their social care. What is wrong | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
with that? First, total credit for them for not pretending that all | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
this can be done by magic, which is what normally happens in an | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
election. The party will say, we will review this for the 95th time | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
in the following Parliament, so they have no mandate to do anything and | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
so do not do anything. It is courageous to do it. It is | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
electorally risky, for the reasons that you suggest, that they pass the | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
target their own natural supporter. And there is a sense that this is | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
rushed through, in the frenzy to get it done in time. I think the ending | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
of the pooling of risk and putting the entire burden on in inverted | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
commas the victim, because you cannot insure Fritz, is against the | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
spirit of a lot of the rest of the manifesto, and will give them huge | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
problems if they try to implement it in the next Parliament. Let's have a | :04:57. | :05:05. | |
look at the polls. Nearly five weeks ago, on Tuesday the 18th of April, | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
Theresa May called the election. At that point, this was the median | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
average of the recent polls. The Conservatives had an 18 point lead | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
over Labour on 25%. Ukip and the Liberal Democrats were both on 18%. | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
A draft of Labour's manifesto was leaked to the press. In the | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
intervening weeks, support for the Conservatives and Labour had | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
increased, that it had decreased for the Lib Dems and Ukip. Last Tuesday | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
came the launch of the official Labour manifesto. By that time, | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
Labour support had gone up by another 2%. The Lib Dems and Ukip | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
had slipped back slightly. Later in the week came the manifestos from | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. This morning, for more polls. This | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
is how the parties currently stand on average. Labour are now on 34%, | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
up 4% since the launch of their manifesto. The Conservatives are | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
down two points since last Tuesday. Ukip and the Lib Dems are both | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
unchanged on 8% and 5%. You can find this poll tracker on the BBC | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
website, see how it was calculated, and see the results of national | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
polls over the last two years. So Isabel, is this the Tories' wobbly | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
weekend or the start of the narrowing? This is still an | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
extremely healthy lead for the Tories. At the start of this | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
campaign, most commentators expected to things to happen. First, the Lib | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
Dems would have a significant surge. That hasn't happened. Second, Labour | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
would crash and plummet. Instead they are in the health of the low | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
30s. I wonder if that tells you something about the tribal nature of | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
the Labour vote, and the continuing problems with the Tory brand. I | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
would say that a lot of Tory MPs wouldn't be too unhappy if Labour's | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
result isn't quite as bad as has been anticipated. They don't want | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
Corbyn to go anywhere. If the latest polls were to be the result on June | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
the 8th, Mr Corbyn may not be in a rush to go anywhere. I still think | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
it depends on the number of seats. If there is a landslide win, I | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
think, one way or another, he will not stay. If it is much narrower, he | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
has grounds for arguing he has done better than anticipated. The polls | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
are very interesting. People compare this with 83. In 83, the Tory lead | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
widened consistently throughout the campaign. There was the SDP - | :07:59. | :08:11. | |
Liberal Alliance doing well in the polls. Here, the Lib Dems don't seem | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
to be doing that. So the parallels with 83 don't really stack up. But | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
let's see what happens. Still early days for the a lot of people are | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
saying this is the result of the social care policy. We don't really | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
know that. How do you beat them? In the last week or so, there's been | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
the decision by some to hold their nose and vote Labour, who haven't | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
done so before. Probably the biggest thing in this election is how the | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Right has reunited behind Theresa May. That figure for Ukip is | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
incredibly small. She has brought those Ukip voters behind her, and | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
that could be the decisive factor in many seats, rather than the Labour | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
share of the boat picking up a bit or down a bit, depending on how | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
turbulent the Tory manifesto makes it. Thank you for that. | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
We've finally got our hands on the manifestos of the two main | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
parties and, for once, voters can hardly complain that | :09:06. | :09:07. | |
So, just how big is the choice on offer to the public? | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
Since the Liberal Democrats and SNP have ruled out | :09:12. | :09:13. | |
coalitions after June 8th, Adam Fleming compares the Labour | :09:14. | :09:15. | |
Welcome to the BBC's election centre. | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
Four minutes from now, when Big Ben strikes 10.00, | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
we can legally reveal the contents of this, our exit poll. | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
18 days to go, and the BBC's election night studio | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
This is where David Dimbleby will sit, although there is no chair yet. | :09:29. | :09:38. | |
The parties' policies are now the finished product. | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
In Bradford, Jeremy Corbyn vowed a bigger state, | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
the end of austerity, no more tuition fees. | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
The Tory campaign, by contrast, is built on one word - fear. | :09:48. | :09:55. | |
Down the road in Halifax, Theresa May kept a promise to get | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
immigration down to the tens of thousands, and talked | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
of leadership and tough choices in uncertain times. | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
Strengthen my hand as I fight for Britain, and stand with me | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
And, with confidence in ourselves and a unity | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
of purpose in our country, let us go forward together. | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
Let's look at the Labour and Conservative | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
On tax, Labour would introduce a 50p rate for top earners. | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
The Conservatives ditched their triple lock, giving them | :10:39. | :11:02. | |
freedom to put up income tax and national insurance, | :11:03. | :11:04. | |
although they want to keep the overall tax burden the same. | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
Labour offered a major overhaul of the country's wiring, | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
with a pledge to renationalise infrastructure, like power, | :11:10. | :11:11. | |
The Conservatives said that would cost a fortune, | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
but provided few details for the cost of their policies. | :11:15. | :11:16. | |
Labour have simply become a shambles, and, as yesterday's | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
manifesto showed, their numbers simply do not add up. | :11:19. | :11:20. | |
What have they got planned for health and social care? | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
The Conservatives offered more cash for the NHS, | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
reaching an extra ?8 billion a year by the end of the parliament. | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
Labour promised an extra ?30 billion over the course of the same period, | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
plus free hospital parking and more pay for staff. | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
The Conservatives would increase the value of assets you could | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
protect from the cost of social care to ?100,000, but your home would be | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
added to the assessment of your wealth, | :11:51. | :11:52. | |
There was a focus on one group of voters in particular | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
Labour would keep the triple lock, which guarantees that pensions go up | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
The Tories would keep the increase in line | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
with inflation or earnings, a double lock. | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
The Conservatives would end of winter fuel payments | :12:12. | :12:13. | |
for the richest, although we don't know exactly who that would be, | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
This is a savage attack on vulnerable pensioners, | :12:18. | :12:25. | |
particularly those who are just about managing. | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
It is disgraceful, and we are calling upon the Conservative Party | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
When it comes to leaving the European Union, Labour say | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
they'd sweep away the government's negotiating strategy, | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
secure a better deal and straightaway guaranteed the rights | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
The Tories say a big majority would remove political uncertainty | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
Jeremy Vine's due here in two and a half weeks. | :12:53. | :13:04. | |
I'm joined now by David Gauke, who is Chief Secretary to the Treasury. | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
Welcome back to the programme. The Tories once promised a cap on social | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
care costs. Why have you abandoned that? We've looked at it, and there | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
are couple of proposals with the Dilnot proposal. Much of the benefit | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
would go to those inheriting larger estates. The second point was it was | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
hoped that a cap would stimulate the larger insurance products that would | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
fill the gap, but there is no sign that those products are emerging. | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
Without a cap, you will not get one. We have come forward with a new | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
proposal which we think is fairer, provide more money for social care, | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
which is very important and is one of the big issues we face as a | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
country. It is right that we face those big issues. Social care is | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
one, getting a good Brexit deal is another. This demonstrates that | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
Theresa May has an ambition to lead a government that addresses those | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
big long-term issues. Looking at social care. If you have assets, | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
including your home, of over ?100,000, you have to pay for all | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
your social care costs. Is that fair? It is right that for the | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
services that are provided to you, that that is paid out of your | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
assets, subject to two really important qualifications. First, you | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
shouldn't have your entire estate wiped out. At the moment, if you are | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
in residential care, it can be wiped out ?223,000. If you are in | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
domiciliary care, it can be out to ?23,000, plus you're domiciliary. | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
Nobody should be forced to sell their house in their lifetime if | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
they or their spouse needs long-term care. Again, we have protected that | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
in the proposals we set out. But the state will basically take a | :15:04. | :15:13. | |
chunk of your house when you die and they sell. In an essence it is a | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
stealth inheritance tax on everything above ?100,000. But we | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
have those two important protections. I am including that. It | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
is a stealth inheritance tax. We have to face up to the fact that | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
there are significant costs that we face as a country in terms of health | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
and social careful. Traditionally, politicians don't address those | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
issues, particularly during election campaigns. I think it is too Theresa | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
May's credit that we are being straightforward with the British | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
people and saying that we face this long-term challenge. Our manifesto | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
was about the big challenges that we face, one of which was | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
intergenerational fairness and one of which was delivering a strong | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
economy and making sure that we can do that. But in the end, someone is | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
going to have to pay for this. It is going to have to be a balance | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
between the general taxpayer and those receiving the services. We | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
think we have struck the right balance with this proposal. But it | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
is entirely on the individual. People watching this programme, if | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
they have a fair amount of assets, not massive, including the home, | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
they will need to pay for everything themselves until their assets are | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
reduced to ?100,000. It is not a balance, you're putting everything | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
on the original two individual. At the moment, for those in residential | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
care, they have to pay everything until 20 3000. -- everything on the | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
individual. But now they will face more. Those in individual care are | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
seeing their protection going up by four times as much, so that is | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
eliminating unfairness. Why should those in residential care be in a | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
worse position than those receiving domiciliary care? But as I say, that | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
money has to come from somewhere and we are sitting at a proper plan for | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
it. While also made the point that we are more likely to be able to | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
have a properly functioning social care market if we have a strong | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
economy, and to have a strong economy we need to deliver a good | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
deal on Brexit and I think Theresa May is capable of doing that. You | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
have said that before. But if you have a heart attack in old age, the | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
NHS will take care of you. If you have dementia, you now have to pay | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
for the care of yourself. Is that they are? It is already the case | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
that if you have long-term care costs come up as I say, if you are | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
in residential care you pay for all of it until the last ?23,000, but if | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
you are in domiciliary care, excluding your housing assets, but | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
all of your other assets get used up until you are down to ?23,000 a | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
year. And I think it is right at this point that a party that aspires | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
to run this country for the long-term, to address the long-term | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
challenges we have is a country, for us to be clear that we need to | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
deliver this. Because if it is not paid for it this way, if it goes and | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
falls on the general taxpayer, the people who feel hard pressed by the | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
amount of income tax and VAT they pay, frankly we have to say to them, | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
those taxes will go up if we do not address it. But they might go up | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
anyway. The average house price in your part of the country is just shy | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
of ?430,000, so if you told your own constituents that they might have to | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
spend ?300,000 of their assets on social care before the state steps | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
in to help...? As I said earlier, nobody will be forced to pay during | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their houses. We are | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
providing that protection because of the third premium. Which makes it a | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
kind of death tax, doesn't it? Which is what you use to rail against. | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
What it is people paying for the services they have paid out of their | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
assets. But with that very important protection that nobody is going to | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
be wiped out in the way that has happened up until now, down to the | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
last three years. But when Labour propose this, George Osborne called | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
it a death tax and you are now proposing a stealth death tax | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
inheritance tax. Labour's proposals were very different. It is the same | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
effect. Labour's were hitting everyone with an inheritance tax. We | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
are saying that there are -- that there is a state contribution but | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
the public receiving the services will have to pay for it out of | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
assets, which have grown substantially. And which they might | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
now lose to social care. But I would say that people in Hertfordshire pay | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
a lot in income tracks, national insurance and VAT, and this is my | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
bet is going to have to come from somewhere. Well, they are now going | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
to pay a lot of tax and pay for social care. Turning to immigration, | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
you promised to get net migration down to 100,020 ten. You failed. You | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
promised again in 2015 and you are feeling again. Why should voters | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
trust you a third time? It is very clear that only the Conservative | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
Party has an ambition to control immigration and to bring it down. An | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
ambition you have failed to deliver. There are, of course, factors that | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
come into play. For example a couple of years ago we were going through a | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
period when the UK was creating huge numbers of jobs but none of our | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
European neighbours were doing anything like it. Not surprisingly, | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
that feeds through into the immigration numbers that we see. But | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
it is right that we have that ambition because I do not believe it | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
is sustainable to have hundreds of thousands net migration, you're | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
after year after year, and only Theresa May of the Conservative | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
Party is willing to address that. It has gone from being a target to an | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
ambition, and I am pretty sure in a couple of years it will become an | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
untimed aspiration. Is net migration now higher or lower than when you | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
came to power in 2010? I think it is higher at the moment. Let's look at | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
the figures. And there they are. You are right, it is higher, so after | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
six years in power, promising to get it down to 100,000, it is higher. So | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
if that is an ambition and you have not succeeded. We have to accept | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
that there are a number of factors. It continues to be the case that the | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
UK economy is growing and creating a lot of jobs, which is undoubtedly | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
drawing people. But you made the promise on the basis that would not | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
happen? We are certainly outperforming other countries in a | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
way that we could not have predicted in 2010. That is one of the factors. | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
But if you look at a lot of the steps that we have taken over the | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
course of the last seven years, dealing with bogus students, for | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
example, tightening up a lot of the rules. You can say all that but it | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
has made no difference to the headline figure. Clearly it would | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
have gone up by much more and we not taken the steps. But as I say, we | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
cannot for ever, it seems to me, have net migration numbers in the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
hundreds of thousands. If we get that good Brexit deal, one of the | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
things we can do is tighten up in terms of access here. You say that | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
but you have always had control of non-EU migration. You cannot blame | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
the EU for that. You control immigration from outside the EU. | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
Have you ever managed to get even that below 100,000? Well, no doubt | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
you will present the numbers now. You haven't. You have got down a bit | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
from 2010, I will give you that, but even non-EU migration is still a lot | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
more than 100000 and that is the thing you control. It is 164,000 on | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
the latest figures. There is no point in saying to the voters that | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
when we get control of the EU migration you will get it down when | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
the bit you have control over, you have failed to get that down into | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
the tens of thousands. The general trend has gone up. Non-EU migration | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
we have brought down over the last few years. Not by much, not by | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
anywhere near your 100,000 target. But we clearly have more tools | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
available to us, following Brexit. At this rate it will be around 2030 | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
before you get non-EU migration down to 100,000. We clearly have more | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
tools available to us and I return to the point I made. In the last six | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
or seven years, particularly the last four or five, we have seen the | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
UK jobs market growing substantially. It is extraordinary | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
how many more jobs we have. So you'll only promised the migration | :23:52. | :23:53. | |
target because you did not think you were going to run the economy well? | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
That is what you are telling me. I don't think anyone expected us to | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
create quite a number of jobs that we have done over the last six or | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
seven years. At the time when other European countries have not been. | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
George Osborne says your target is economically illiterate. I disagree | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
with George on that. He is my old boss but I disagree with him on that | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
point. And the reason I say that is looking at the economics and the | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
wider social impact, I don't think it is sustainable for us to have | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
hundreds of thousands, year after year after year. Let me ask you one | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
other thing because you are the chief secretary. Your promising that | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
spending on health will be ?8 billion higher in five use time than | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
it is now. How do you pay for that? From a strong economy, two years ago | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
we had a similar conversation because at that point we said that | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
we would increase spending by ?8 billion. And we are more than on | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
track to deliver it, because it is a priority area for us. Where will the | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
money come from? It will be a priority area for us. We will find | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
the money. So you have not been able to show us a revenue line where this | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
?8 billion will come from. We have a record of making promises to spend | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
more on the NHS and delivering. One thing I would say is that the only | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
way you can spend more money on the NHS is if you have a strong economy, | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
and the biggest risk... But that is true of anything. I am trying to | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
find out where the ?8 billion come from, where will it come from? Know | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
you were saying that perhaps you might increase taxes, ticking off | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
the lock, so people are right to be suspicious. But you will not tell us | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
where the ?8 billion will come from. Andrew, a strong economy is key to | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
delivering more NHS money. That does not tell us where the money is | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
coming from. The biggest risk to a strong economy would be a bad | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
Brexit, which Jeremy Corbyn would deliver. And we have a record of | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
putting more money into the NHS. I think that past performance we can | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
take forward. Thank you for joining us. | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
So, the Conservatives have been taking a bit of flak | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
But Conservative big guns have been out and about this morning taking | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
Here's Boris Johnson on ITV's Peston programme earlier today: | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
What we're trying to do is to address what I think | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
everybody, all serious demographers acknowledge will be the massive | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
problem of the cost of social care long-term. | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
This is a responsible, grown-up, conservative approach, | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
trying to deal with a long-term problem in a way that is equitable, | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
allows people to pass on a very substantial sum, | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
still, to their kids, and takes away the fear | :26:34. | :26:35. | |
Joining me now from Liverpool is Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
Petered out, welcome to the programme. Let's start with social | :26:43. | :26:53. | |
care. The Tories are saying that if you have ?100,000 or more in assets, | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
you should pay for your own social care. What is wrong with that? Well, | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
I think the issue at the end of the day is the question of fairness. Is | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
it fair? And what we're trying to do is to get to a situation where we | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
have, for example, the Dilnot report, which identified that you | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
actually have cap on your spending on social care. We are trying to get | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
to a position where it is a reasonable and fair approach to | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
expenditure. But you will know that a lot of people, particularly in the | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
south of country, London and the south-east, and the adjacent areas | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
around it, they have benefited from huge house price inflation. They | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
have seen their homes go up in value, if and when they sell, they | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
are not taxed on that increase. Why should these people not pay for | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
their own social care if they have the assets to do so? They will be | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
paying for some of their social care but you cannot take social care and | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
health care separately. It has to be an integrated approach. So for | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
example if you do have dementia, you're more likely to be in an | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
elderly person's home for longer and you most probably have been in care | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
for a longer period of time. On the other hand, you might have, if you | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
have had a stroke, there may be continuing care needs paid for by | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
the NHS. So at the end of the date it is trying to get a reasonable | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
balance and just to pluck a figure of ?100,000 out of thin air is not | :28:21. | :28:29. | |
sensible. You will have heard me say about David Gold that the house | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
prices in his area, about 450,000 or so, not quite that, and that people | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
may have to spend quite a lot of that on social care to get down to | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
?100,000. But in your area, the average house price is only | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
?149,000, so your people would not have to pay anything like as much | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
before they hit the ?100,000 minimum. I hesitate to say that but | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
is that not almost a socialist approach to social care that if you | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
are in the affluent Home Counties with a big asset, you pay more, and | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
if you are in an area that is not so affluent and your house is not worth | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
very much, you pay a lot less. What is wrong with that principle? I | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
think the problem I am trying to get to is this issue about equity across | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
the piece. At the end of the day, what we want is a system whereby it | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
is capped at a particular level, and the Dilnot report, after much | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
examination, said we should have a cap on care costs at ?72,000. The | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
Conservatives decided to ditch that and come up with another policy | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
which by all accounts seems to be even more Draconian. At the end of | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
the day it is trying to get social care and an NHS care in a much more | :29:42. | :29:51. | |
fluid way. We had offered the Conservatives to have a bipartisan | :29:52. | :29:53. | |
approach to this. David just said that this is a long term. You do not | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
pick a figure out of thin air and use that as a long-term strategy. | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
The Conservatives are now saying they will increase health spending | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
over the next five years in real terms. You will increase health | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
spending. In what way is your approach to health spending better | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
than the Tories' now? We are contributing an extra 7.2 billion to | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
the NHS and social care over the next few years. But you just don't | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
put money into the NHS or social care. It has to be an integrated | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
approach to social and health care. What we've got is just more of the | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
same. What we don't want to do is just say, we ring-fenced an out for | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
here or there. What you have to do is try to get that... Let me ask you | :30:46. | :30:54. | |
again. In terms of the amount of resource that is going to be devoted | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
in the next five years, and resource does matter for the NHS, in what way | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
are your plans different now from the Conservative plans? The key is | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
how you use that resource. By just putting money in, you've got to say, | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
if we are going to put that money on, how do we use it? As somebody | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
who has worked in social care for 40 years, you have to have a different | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
approach to how you use that money. The money we are putting in, 7.7, | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
may be similar in cash terms to what the Tories claim they are putting | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
in, but it's not how much you put in per se, it is how you use it. You | :31:35. | :31:48. | |
are going to get rid of car parking charges in hospital, and you are | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
going to increase pay by taking the cap on pay off. So it doesn't | :31:52. | :31:53. | |
necessarily follow that the money, under your way of doing it, will | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
follow the front line. What you need in the NHS is a system that is | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
capable of dealing with the patience you have. What we have now is on at | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
five Asian of the NHS. Staff leaving, not being paid properly. So | :32:08. | :32:17. | |
pay and the NHS go hand in hand. Let's move onto another area of | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
policy where there is some confusion. Who speaks for the Labour | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
Party on nuclear weapons? Is it Emily Thornbury, or Nia Griffith, | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
defence spokesperson? The Labour manifesto. It is clear. We are | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
committed to the nuclear deterrent, and that is the definitive... Is it? | :32:38. | :32:48. | |
Emily Thornbury said that Trident could be scrapped in the defence | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
review you would have immediately after taking power. On LBC on Friday | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
night. She didn't, actually. I listened to that. What she actually | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
said is, as part of a Labour government coming in, a new | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
government, there is always a defence review. But not the concept | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
of Trident in its substance. She said there would be a review in | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
terms of, and this is in our manifesto. When you reduce | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
something, you review how it is operated. The review could scrap | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
Trident. It won't scrap Trident. The review is in the context of how you | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
protect it from cyber attacks. This will issue was seized upon that she | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
was saying that we would have another review of Trident or Labour | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
would ditch it. That is nonsense. You will have seen some reports that | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
MI5 opened a file on Jeremy Corbyn in the early 90s because of his | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
links to Irish republicanism. This has caused some people, his links to | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
the IRA and Sinn Fein, it has caused some concern. Could you just listen | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
to this clip and react. Do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
all bombing. But do you condemn what the IRA did? I condemn what was done | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
with the British Army as well as both sides as well. What happened in | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well. Do you distinguish between | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
state forces, what the British Army did and the IRA? Well, in a sense, | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
prisoners suggested that the British government and the state saw some | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
kind of almost equivalent in it. My point is that the whole violence if | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
you was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time. That | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
was from about two years ago. Can you explain why the Leader of the | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
Labour Party, Her Majesty 's opposition, the man who would be our | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
next Prime Minister, finds it so hard to condemn IRA arming? I think | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
it has to be within the context that Jeremy Corbyn for many years trying | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
to move the peace protest... Process along. So why wouldn't you condemn | :35:28. | :35:36. | |
IRA bombing? Again, that was an issue, a traumatic event in Irish - | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
British relations that went on for 30 years. It is a complicated | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
matter. Bombing is not that complicated. If you are a man of | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
peace, surely you would condemn the bomb and the bullet? Let me say | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
this, I condemn the bomb and the bullet. Why can't your leader? You | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
would have to ask Jeremy Corbyn, but that is in the context of what he | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
was trying to do over a 25 year period to move the priest process | :36:10. | :36:11. | |
along. Thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35, | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. Hello again. | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
in Scotland and Wales. Welcome to the Sunday | :36:17. | :36:27. | |
Politics in the Midlands. There's something about a hospital | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
issue that can turn Now Telford feels the pulling power | :36:32. | :36:33. | |
of Shropshire's tug-of-war over A The Conservatives edged | :36:34. | :36:42. | |
Labour out two years ago, and it's just as hotly contested | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
this time round. Pulling in opposite directions | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
with us here today - Amanda Milling for the Conservatives | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
and Adrian Bailey for Labour. Both MPs in the last | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
Parliament, and hoping to be, And can the Green Party get | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
the Green light in places where they have a nasty habit | :37:01. | :37:11. | |
of seeing Red? Labour's is all about taxing, | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
spending and re-nationalising. The Liberal Democrats promise | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
another EU referendum. And the Conservatives restate | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
their elusive immigration target, promise means-tested winter fuel | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
payments, and charging We do have to take care with one set | :37:31. | :37:46. | |
of opinion polls, but this is the first set to come out since the | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
Conservative manifesto with those proposals on social care. Amanda, | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
what would you say to somebody who's been thrifty all their lives, | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
have assets of over ?100,000, and have assets of over ?100,000, and | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
now they face what will seemed to many like dementia tax or death tax | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
or a Gnostic combination of them both? Social care is we've discussed | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
at length over months and years. With an ageing population where we | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
need to find a solution so that we can provide the care that older | :38:20. | :38:27. | |
people need. This is a credible solution being pro forward. Have you | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
not alienated the people most likely to vote and most likely to vote for | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
you? We're actually increasing the level of protection. We're going | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
from the 23,000 figure up to ?100,000. We know Labour's response | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
to this and that's understandable. If somebody is living in a house in | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
less than ?100,000, this could look less than ?100,000, this could look | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
like good news. In the current housing market, the great majority | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
of people, and there are some exceptions in some cities, feel | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
profoundly uneasy about these proposals. The fact is that | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
hard-working people who throughout their lives have saved up and know | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
their house is worth more than 100,000 know they could have a huge | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
amount of money that their descendants will have to contribute | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
to pave their care. They are very concerned. Are you preserving the | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
intergenerational unfairness whether younger people take a | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
disproportionately heavy load compare that with older people? Your | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
preserving the triple lock, saying on winter fuel payments that the | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
millionaire gets the same as everybody else? I believe there's a | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
profound sense of unease that currently the great majority of | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
people, including both pensioners and young people, are actually | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
suffering whilst there is something like the top 5% and the corporation | :40:04. | :40:11. | |
getting away. At the moment, the ordinary hard-working person, | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
whether they are pensioner or young person, who is subsidising those at | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
the top. Back to the nasty party. We need to ensure we have a strong | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
economy. The Labour Party policy is very anti-business. And | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
anti-aspiration. There's a real danger it will put our public | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
services at risk by virtue... At this stage we have to move on. | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
Something really odd happened here in the last general election, | :40:43. | :40:44. | |
making a mockery of any idea of "uniform national swing". | :40:45. | :40:46. | |
The Conservatives increased their majorities in their | :40:47. | :40:48. | |
The Conservatives overturned a narrow Labour majority, | :40:49. | :40:57. | |
with an even narrower one of their own. | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
This time, Joanne Gallacher finds a town embroiled in a bitter battle | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
On the march in Shropshire against proposals to downgrade | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
services at Telford's Princess Royal Hospital. | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
There's no doubt it's a big issue for voters here. | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
What would you say are the main issues for people in Telford ahead | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
The hospitals and the fact that the Women and Children's Centre | :41:22. | :41:29. | |
Health bosses have recommended that the Accident Emergency unit | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
at the Princess Royal is downgraded and services at the Women | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
and Children's Centre, which was opened just two years ago | :41:38. | :41:39. | |
at a cost of ?28 million, should be scaled down. | :41:40. | :41:47. | |
When Lucy Allan took the seat from Labour | :41:48. | :41:49. | |
for the Conservatives back in 2015, the future of services | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
at the Princess Royal and the Royal Shrewsbury seemed secure. | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
Just a year earlier, on a visit to Telford, | :41:58. | :41:59. | |
the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, had promised | :42:00. | :42:01. | |
I was there when he said that and I think what we have now | :42:02. | :42:10. | |
got are two A at two hospitals, one in Shrewsbury, one | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
in Telford, going to be doing slightly different services. | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
As a patient that might have a smash on the M54, | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
I want to go as fast as possible to the place clinicians | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
Local residents who want a walk-in A, they are still going to get | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
that, and Shrewsbury is still going to have that, | :42:28. | :42:29. | |
We're going to win and we're going to fight | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
Labour want to turn this election into a referendum on the future | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
They want Mr Hunt to honour his commitment to keep 24/7 A | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
Jeremy Hunt promised, when he came in two years ago, | :42:43. | :42:50. | |
over two years ago, that there will be two A | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
One in Shrewsbury and one in Telford. | :42:55. | :42:56. | |
Now we don't hear anything from Jeremy Hunt. | :42:57. | :42:58. | |
This is one of the reasons people are confused. | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
They don't know where our local MP stands. | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
The Greens are standing in Telford after an offer to stand aside | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
They've criticised Labour's campaign on the hospital issue. | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
By calling the election a referendum on the hospital, | :43:17. | :43:18. | |
I think it's a way of misdirecting and misleading the electorate. | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
They're kind of creating this false narrative of one | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
of the hospitals is going to stay, when in reality that is not | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
The Liberal Democrats trailed in last in 2015 | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
They say the vote to leave the European Union could also damage | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
Probably with what's happening over Brexit, | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
a lot of the medical professionals are thinking have they actually got | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
They might be thinking about going abroad. | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
This sort of situation is going to get worse. | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
Ukip aren't standing here this time and although Brexit may be an issue, | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
it seems the future of the local hospital services is at the top | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
of the political agenda for people in Telford in this general election. | :44:02. | :44:14. | |
Labour say if they get in they will have a review of all these hospital | :44:15. | :44:22. | |
plans. I suggest you, Adrian, that come what may, whichever government | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
gets in, some of these A will have to close. There's a question | :44:28. | :44:37. | |
over the one in the need to, Stafford, Burton. You will have to | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
close some come what may. Can I complement Kuldip Sahota on the | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
robust way he is exercising this campaign in order to protect | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
services for his local residents. His experience in Telford is | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
mirrored throughout the country but in the West Midlands in particular. | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
In Staffordshire, yesterday it was announced they would have to be a | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
closure of one of the hospital's Accident Emergency in order to | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
save ?500 million. On the doorstep, NHS is the number-1 issue. This week | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
I had to women who had been waiting eight months and five months for | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
operations on cancer and were absolutely beside themselves with | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
worry about their to get from the National Health Service the service | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
they needed. The fact is that Labour will put in ?30 billion over the | :45:33. | :45:40. | |
next five years designed to get the level of nurses and doctors and the | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
facilities needed in order to get rid of these waiting times. Your | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
candidate in Telford can say all she likes that this is about wider | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
issues than just the health service, but if the constituents say it is | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
about hospitals, that's the way it is. They are local issues, but at | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
the end of the day this election is about who you want to be Prime | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
Minister. Do you want a strong and stable leadership of Theresa May... | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
What about the fierce people have. There is a question at the least | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
over Stafford or Burton. I remember being on this show last time and we | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
talked about Stafford and Burton Kadri Des. I was clear that myself | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
and colleagues, Jeremy in Stafford and Andrew Griffiths in Burton, have | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
been campaigning hard to make sure we retain our A services in both | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
these hospitals. Looking at the very close contest in Telford, it makes | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
me wonder why Labour have been spurning ideas of the Progressive | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
Alliance. It's so nip and tuck, I would have thought that overture | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
from the Greens might have offered a decent prospect of helping you get | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
the Tories out. Before that... Strong and stable leadership. This | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
is a leader who a few months ago introduced in the Budget an increase | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
in national insurance for self-employed people and then | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
scrapped it. That is not strong and stable. Let's get on to this point | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
about the so-called Progressive Alliance. The fact is that Labour | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
has a distinctive set of policies from those of the Green party or | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
other political parties. We are fighting on those policies. If we | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
get into power we will implement those policies. Labour has a strong | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
brand, it has looked after working people over a century. We do not | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
need the aid of parties that failed on that. I would argue that the | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
Labour Party policies are such that they are going to crash the economy. | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
As a result of that, they won't be able to fund these public services | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
without borrowing huge sums of money. Jeremy Hunt was wrong, was he | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
not, thinking of those Telford hospitals, to signal so much | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
confidence that A in Telford and Shrewsbury would have a future. I | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
can't discuss specifically what's going on in Shropshire hospitals. | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
What I can say is I know the candidates, the MPs in Shropshire, | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
have been campaigning very hard on these issues. Thank you. | :48:30. | :48:30. | |
And I bet you think you know who I'm talking about. | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
But no, it's not the Liberal Democrats, although there has been | :48:37. | :48:38. | |
talk of a "progressive alliance" with them. | :48:39. | :48:40. | |
The Green Party currently have 27 councillors | :48:41. | :48:42. | |
They're fielding 58 general election candidates here this time round. | :48:43. | :48:50. | |
That's slightly down on the number who stood two years ago, | :48:51. | :48:52. | |
when only six of them managed to get enough votes to save their deposits. | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
Our political reporter, Sian Grzeszczyk, asked | :48:58. | :48:59. | |
their co-leader why the party has, so far, failed to | :49:00. | :49:01. | |
We're not claiming to suddenly be forming the next government, | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
I think everyone is clear about that, but what you can be | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
clear about is when you vote for the Green Party, | :49:13. | :49:14. | |
you send a very, very clear message to Westminster. | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
The West Midlands has been neglected by Westminster | :49:18. | :49:18. | |
Greens are fighting for the West Midlands and we're | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
seeing that vote build and build and build. | :49:23. | :49:24. | |
Perhaps not building as fast as we want it to, | :49:25. | :49:26. | |
but the direction of travel is very, very clear. | :49:27. | :49:28. | |
I'll make a prediction that in the next few general elections | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
we'll see the Greens taking parliamentary seats | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
OK, well, you've got that prediction there, but let me talk | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
to you about your party's position on Brexit. | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
You're offering a second referendum on that. | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
When we take a look at the figures, the West Midlands was the region | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
who voted most heavily in favour of leaving the European Union. | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
How are you going to connect with the voters on that? | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
But they all feel people should be given a final say on the final deal. | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
What happens if Theresa May comes back and says this | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
This is going to open up the NHS to privatisation | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
through the transatlantic trade deal with the US as corporations | :50:10. | :50:11. | |
What happens if she says we want to make us a tax haven | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
When people see that, they might say, you know what, | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
that wasn't what we voted for when we voted for leave | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
Let's talk about another challenge to your party | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
in the West Midlands and that's your | :50:28. | :50:29. | |
What do you say to voters in places like Birmingham that stand | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
to benefit economically from HS2 actually happening? | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
We want the economy of Birmingham to get what it deserves and to have | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
that major investment, but the question is, | :50:43. | :50:44. | |
are you getting the best bang for your buck when you're investing | :50:45. | :50:46. | |
Wouldn't it be better to put that money in a really good | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
Why put all our eggs in one basket and focus on a very, | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
very narrow project which actually won't deliver the range | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
of benefits that we need for people in Birmingham. | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
And we're also joined here today by one of the Green Party's candidates. | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
Diana Toynbee is an educationalist and charity worker - | :51:08. | :51:09. | |
You are one of the six who did save your deposits last time round. How | :51:10. | :51:21. | |
many will save them this time? Six or fewer? I don't know, is very | :51:22. | :51:28. | |
unpredictable. Probably more. We're running a really, really good | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
campaign and we have great leaders who have been doing well in the | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
national media. Why have the Greens got such a miserable record in this | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
part of the country? They're under achievement speaks for itself. The | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
indications are the smaller parties are being squeezed by the bigger | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
two? The main problem is our ridiculously undemocratic voting | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
system. But it's the one you have to work with. It is and we are working | :51:54. | :52:00. | |
with it. If we had a more representative voting system, which | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
people wanted, there would be 25 of us in Parliament at the moment. I | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
was interested in HS2. The party has been consistent in its opposition. I | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
don't understand why you're not welcome new -- welcoming these more | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
energy-efficient trains, replacing the older ones that are less | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
efficient? Good point. We are not against high-speed rail in | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
principle, but looking at HS2 indeed tell, it doesn't look like there's a | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
good economic or environmental case for it. Are you also not against the | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
and investment? The vast majority of MPs think it will be very good for | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
the economy, particularly areas like ours? Of course jobs are good. All | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
jobs are good. We would like to invest money in jobs in new green | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
technologies, renewable energy, this massive potential for that in this | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
country and that would be a great way to invest as well. No sign of | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
the Progressive Alliance getting anywhere in this part of the | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
country? It depends on the constituency. I'm really proud to be | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
representing the party that post on the Progressive Alliance, we've | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
shown the way on it. People want to see politicians cooperating. It | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
depends on the constituency. Who is most likely to beat the | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
Conservatives. It's sad in Telford that Labour rebut our offer. We talk | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
about the common good in the Green Party and putting us into practice. | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
If we talking about alliances, the one that is key is the one where | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
we're seeing Ukip tumbling into the laps of the Conservative Party. The | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
right is consolidating while the left, as we keep airing -- hearing, | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
is more fragmented than ever. My experience on the doorstep is people | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
who had voted Ukip are very concerned... They wanted to vote for | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
change when they voted Ukip. They are now concerned that where Ukip | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
are joining the Conservatives to implement conservative policies at a | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
local level, as in Dudley or potentially in Parliament, and | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
actually they did not vote for the programme of cuts in education, | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
health, police and so on that they know oh Conservative MP will | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
deliver. Whatever happened to the Tories being the greenest | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
government, greenest pledges, very little about air quality in the | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
manifesto, little about the falling cost of renewables, very little to | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
address the slippage in Kyle line change proposals. I would argue that | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
we are looking at our energy mix to be much greener. In my own | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
constituency, I had a coal-fired power station that closed last year. | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
We are phasing out coal production. That's an example of how we are | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
being green. A key element in your proposals is you do want to have | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
another referendum on the European Union. Isn't the message that's | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
coming through loud and clear again and again and again from the | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
campaign Trail is people saying not another referendum. Are you backing | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
the wrong horse? I think that's a good point. I thought at first, not | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
another referendum. The more I learn about it the more I think it is | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
important that people have another chance when they have we thought it. | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
This is the beginning of a process not the end. Another referendum | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
doesn't mean reversing it, it just means people have a chance to decide | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
having had time to think. OK, thank you. | :55:48. | :55:48. | |
So what else has been making the news on the campaign trail? | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
Our round-up in 60 seconds is brought to us today by Joan Cummins: | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
The Liberal Democrat leader, Tim Farron, made | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
The party wants to legalise cannabis, but the pot on display | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
The PM revealed she's read all of JK Rowling's books about the young | :56:05. | :56:13. | |
wizard to pupils at the Nishkam primary school in Birmingham. | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
Oops, Diane Abbott got slightly lost on her | :56:19. | :56:20. | |
way to give a speech at the Police Federation's | :56:21. | :56:22. | |
The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, was then treated to some difficult | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
What party of law and order, as you put it, cuts | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn addressed a rally in Birmingham | :56:33. | :56:42. | |
calling on the Conservatives to drop what he calls their anti-pensioner | :56:43. | :56:44. | |
And away from the election, there's been a change of power in Dudley. | :56:45. | :56:52. | |
The Conservatives have taken control of the council from Labour | :56:53. | :56:54. | |
An arrangement in Dudley dubbed by its opponents the regressive | :56:55. | :57:13. | |
alliance. Doesn't it point out again the danger I was talking about a | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
moment ago. In the Black Country, in the potteries, areas like that, off | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
Ukip and the Conservatives consolidating against you. Frankly I | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
think it's really regrettable and the people who will suffer will be | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
the electorate of Dudley. You have a Labour minority counsel, very ably | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
led by Pete Lowe, and with Ian Austin, formerly the MPs there, | :57:41. | :57:47. | |
regenerating the area, a brand-new further education college. Now as a | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
result of a squalid backroom deal, you have a coalition of losers that | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
have taken over. I've fear you'll have a super time at US and Tory | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
lead counsel working with the Tory government to inflict cuts on the | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
electors of Dudley. A squalid coalition of losers. You think of | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
that post the Lib Dems put out yesterday which rather unnervingly, | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
I thought, showed Nigel Farage's face superimposed into the head and | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
shoulders of Theresa May. That's the point they are making. You're | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
turning into a very different party. The Dudley Council situation is that | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
the Conservatives put forward a possible leader. There was no deal | :58:33. | :58:40. | |
done, no backroom deal. This is a Conservative council now with | :58:41. | :58:42. | |
conservative cabinet members. There's been no deals with Ukip. | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
What are we to make of this talk of 200 Labour MPs would be OK? Managing | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
expectations down? Briefly. Ridiculous. Ridiculous is the last | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
word. My thanks to Amanda Milling | :59:00. | :59:00. | |
and Adrian Bailey. Finally from me, a word | :59:01. | :59:02. | |
about some special themed days We'll hook up with our other regions | :59:03. | :59:05. | |
to reveal The Bigger Picture, beyond the claim and counter-claim | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
of everyday electioneering. What's the right number | :59:10. | :59:11. | |
of migrant workers? On Friday, the early years, | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
from nursery school to university. This, though, is where | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
we re-join Andrew Neil. cancelled. And rent to own is still | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
our policy. Thank you very much, Tom Brake. Andrew, back to you. | :59:22. | :59:28. | |
So, two and half weeks to go till polling day, | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
let's take stock of the campaign so far and look ahead | :59:32. | :59:33. | |
Sam, Isabel and Steve are with me again. | :59:34. | :59:42. | |
Sam, Mrs May had made a great thing about the just about managing. Not | :59:43. | :59:50. | |
the poorest of the poor, but not really affluent people, who are | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
maybe OK but it's a bit of a struggle. What is in the manifesto | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
for them? There is something about the high profile items in the | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
manifesto. She said she wants to help those just above the poorest | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
level. But if you look at things like the winter fuel allowance, | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
which is going to be given only to the poorest. If you look at free | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
school meals for infants, those for the poorest are going to be kept, | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
but the rest will go. The social care plan, those who are renting or | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
in properties worth up to ?90,000, they are going to be treated, but | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
those in properties worth above that, 250,000, for example, will | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
have to pay. Which leads to the question - what is being done for | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
the just about managings? There is something, the personal allowance | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
that David Cameron promised in 2015, that they are not making a big deal | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
of that, because they cannot say by how much. So you are looking in tax | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
rises on the just about managings. Where will the tax rises come from. | :01:03. | :01:11. | |
We do not know, that there is the 40 million pounds gap for the Tories to | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
reach what they are pledging in their manifesto. We do not know how | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
that is going to be made up, more tax, or more borrowing? So that is | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
why the questions of the implications of removing the tax | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
lock are so potentially difficult for Tory MPs. The Labour manifesto | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
gives figures for the cost of certain policies and where the | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
revenue will come from. You can argue about the figures, but at | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
least we have the figures. The Tory manifesto is opaque on these | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
matters. That applies to both the manifestos. Looking at the Labour | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
manifesto on the way here this morning, when you look at the | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
section on care for the elderly, they simply say, there are various | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
ways in which the money for this can be raised. They are specific on | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
other things. They are, and we heard John McDonnell this morning being | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
very on that, and saying there is not a single ? in Tory manifesto. I | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
have only got to page 66. It is quite broad brush and they are very | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
open to challenge. For example, on the detail of a number of their | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
flagship things. There is no detail on their immigration policy. They | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
reiterate the ambition, but not how they are going to do that, without a | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
massive increase in resource for Borders officials. We are at a time | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
where average wages are lagging behind prices. And in work benefits | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
remain frozen. I would have thought that the just-about-managings are | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
people who are in work but they need some in work benefits to make life | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
tolerable and be able to pay bills. Doesn't she has to do more for them? | :03:03. | :03:11. | |
Maybe, but this whole manifesto was her inner circle saying, right, this | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
is our chance to express our... It partly reads like a sort of | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
philosophical essay at times. About the challenges, individualism | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
against collectivism. Some of it reads quite well and is quite | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
interesting, but in terms of its detail, Labour would never get away | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
with it. They wouldn't be allowed to be so vague about where taxes are | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
going to rise. We know there are going to be tax rises after the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
election, but we don't know where they will be. 100%, there will be | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
tax rises. We know that they wanted a tax rise in the last budget, but | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
they couldn't get it through because of the 2015 manifesto. Labour do | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
offer a lot more detail. People could disagree with it, but there is | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
a lot more detail. More to get your teeth into. About capital gains tax | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
and the rises for better owners and so on. The SNP manifesto comes out | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
this week, and the Greens and Sinn Fein. We think Ukip as well. There | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
are more manifestos to come. The Lib Dems have already brought theirs | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
out. Isn't the Liberal Democrat campaign in trouble? It doesn't seem | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
to be doing particular the well in the polls, or at the local elections | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
a few weeks ago. The Liberal Democrats are trying to fish in | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
quite a small pool for votes. They are looking to get votes from those | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
remainers who want to reverse the result, in effect. Tim Farron is | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
promising a second referendum on the deal at the end of the negotiation | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
process. And that is a hard sell. So those voting for remain on June 23 | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
are not low hanging fruit by any means? Polls suggesting that half of | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
those want to reverse the result, so that is a feeling of about 20% on | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
the Lib Dems, and they are getting slightly less than half at the | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
moment, but there are not a huge amount of votes for them to get on | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
that strategy. It doesn't feel like Tim Farron and the Lib Dems have | :05:32. | :05:41. | |
promised enough. They are making a very serious case on cannabis use in | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
a nightclub, but the optics of what they are discussing doesn't make | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
them look like an anchor in a future coalition government that they would | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
need to be. I wonder if we are seeing the re-emergence of the | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
2-party system? And it is not the same two parties. In Scotland, the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
dynamics of this election seemed to be the Nationalists against the | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
Conservatives. In England, if you look at what has happened to be Ukip | :06:06. | :06:20. | |
vote, and what Sam was saying about the Lib Dems are struggling a bit to | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
get some traction, it is overwhelmingly Labour and the | :06:25. | :06:25. | |
Conservatives. A different 2-party system from Scotland, but a 2-party | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
system. There are a number of different election is going on in | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
parallel. In Scotland it is about whether you are unionist or not. | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
Here, we have the collapse of the Ukip vote, which looks as though it | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
is being redistributed in the Tories' favour. This is a unique | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
election, and will not necessarily set the trend for elections to come. | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
In the Tory manifesto, I spotted the fact that the fixed term Parliament | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
act is going to be scrapped. That got almost no coverage! It turned | :06:57. | :07:04. | |
out to be academic anyway, that it tells you something about how | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
Theresa May is feeling, and she wants the control to call an | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
election whenever it suits her. Re-emergence of the 2-party system, | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
for this election or beyond? For this election, yes, but it shows the | :07:18. | :07:26. | |
sort of robust strength of parties and their fragility. In other words, | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
the Lib Dems haven't really recovered from the losses in the | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
last general election, and are therefore not really seen as a | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
robust vehicle to deliver Remain. If they were, they might be doing | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
better. The Labour Party hasn't recovered in Scotland, and yet, if | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
you look at the basic divide in England and Scotland and you see two | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
parties battling it out, it is very, very hard for the smaller parties to | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
break through and last. Many appear briefly on the political stage and | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
then disappear again. The election had the ostensible goal of Brexit, | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
but we haven't heard much about it in the campaign. Perhaps the Tories | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
want to get back onto that. David Davis sounding quite tough this | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
morning, the Brexit minister, saying there is no chance we will talk | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
about 100 billion. And we have to have power in the negotiations on | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
the free trade deal or what ever it is. I think they are keen to get the | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
subject of the manifesto at this point, because it has not started | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
too well. There is an irony that Theresa May ostensibly called the | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
election because she needed a stronger hand in the Brexit | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
negotiations, and there was an opportunity for the Lib Dems, with | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
their unique offer of being the party that is absolutely against the | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
outcome of the referendum, and offering another chance. There | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
hasn't been much airtime on that particular pledge, because instead, | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
this election has segued into being all about leadership. Theresa May's | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
leadership, and looking again at the Tory manifesto, I was struck that | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
she was saying that this is my plan for the future, not ABBA plan. Even | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
when talking about social care, he manages to work in a bit about | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
Theresa May and Brexit. And Boris Johnson this morning, an interview | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
he gave on another political programme this morning, it was | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
extraordinarily sycophantic for him. Isn't Theresa May wonderful. There | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
is a man trying to secure his job in the Foreign Office! Will he succeed? | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
I think she will leave him. Better in the tent than out. What did you | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
make of David Davis' remarks? He was basically saying, we will walk away | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
from the negotiating table if the Europeans slam a bill for 100 | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
billion euros. The point is that the Europeans will not slam a bill for | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
100 billion euros on the negotiating table. That is the gross figure. | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
There are all sorts of things that need to be taken into account. I | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
imagine they will ask for something around the 50 or ?60 billion mark. | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
It looks that they are trying to make it look like a concession when | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
they do make their demands in order to soften the ground for what is | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
going to happen just two weeks after general election day. He makes a | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
reasonable point about having parallel talks. What they want to do | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
straightaway is deal with the bill, Northern Ireland and citizens | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
rights. All of those things are very complicated and interlinked issues, | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
which cannot be dealt with in isolation. I wouldn't be surprised | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
if we ended up with parallel talks, just to work out where we are going | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
with Northern Ireland and the border. Steve, you can't work out | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
what the Northern Ireland border will be, and EU citizens' writes | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
here, until you work out what our relationship with the EU in the | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
future will be. Indeed. The British government is under pressure to deal | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
quickly with the border issue in Ireland, but feel they can't do so | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
because when you have a tariff free arrangement outcome, or an | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
arrangement that is much more protectionist, and that will | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
determine partly the nature of the border. You cannot have a quick | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
agreement on that front without knowing the rest of the deal. I | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
think the negotiation will be complex. I am certain they want a | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
deal rather than none, because this is no deal thing is part of the | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
negotiation at this early stage. Sounding tough in the general | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
election campaign also works electorally. But after the election, | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
it will be a tough negotiation, beginning with this cost of Brexit. | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
My understanding is that the government feels it's got to make | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
the Europeans think they will not do a deal in order to get a deal. They | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
don't want no deal. Absolutely not. And I'm sure it plays into the | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
election. I'm sure the rhetoric will change when the election is over. | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
That's all for today, thank you to all my guests. | :12:32. | :12:33. | |
The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at 12.00 | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
And tomorrow evening I will be starting my series of interviews | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
with the party leaders - first up is the Prime | :12:41. | :12:42. | |
Minister, Theresa May, that's at 7pm on BBC One. | :12:43. | :12:44. | |
And I'll be back here at the same time on BBC One next Sunday. | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :12:49. | :13:36. | |
We've made great strides tackling HIV. | :13:37. | :13:38. | |
Imagine if we could create a movement | :13:39. | :13:41. |