14/05/2017 Sunday Politics West Midlands

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes

in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -

Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax

to fund public services, but will traders just

Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,

insists he can win this election - so which way will

We'll hear from a focus group in Leeds.

And in the Midlands: Two general elections

It's no laughing matter keeping people interested

We'll keep you interested in half an hour.

and here, what the parties are saying about tackling the air

pollution problem in London. And with me, our own scientifically

selected focus group of political pundits -

they're not so much undecided as clueless -

Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott They'll be tweeting

throughout the programme. So, we've got two new

policies this morning. Labour say they will introduce

a financial transaction tax if they win the general election

and what they're calling "the biggest crackdown on tax

avoidance in the country's history". The Conservatives say they'll work

with local authorities in England to build council houses

with the right to buy. Theresa May says the policy

"will help thousands of people get on the first rung

of the housing ladder". Steve, what do you make of them? I

have been conditioned after doing tax and spend debates in

pre-election periods for many decades to treat policy is not as

literal but as arguments. In other words if you look back to 2015 the

Tory plan to wipe out the deficit was never going to happen and yet it

framed and large event. In that sense the Robin Hood tax is a

sensible move for Labour to make at this point because it is part of a

narrative of reconfiguring taxation to be fair. Treating it as an

argument rather than something that would happen in day one of Labour

government is sensible. In terms of building houses Theresa May said

right from the beginning when she was in Number Ten that there is a

housing deficit in this country rather than the economic deficit

George Osborne was focusing on, and this is an example of trying to get

house-building going. It seems entirely sensible, not sure how it

works with right to buy but again as framing of a 90 minute it makes

sense. I disagree with Steve on one front which is how sensible Theresa

May's policy is on the housing announcement. I think more broadly

these two announcements have something in common which is that

over the next 24 hours both will probably unravel in different ways.

Ye of little faith! The Mayor of London has already said he doesn't

agree with this, and when people see the actual impact of what looks like

a populist tax will very potentially affect people's pensions, it might

become a lot less popular. On the Tory housing plans, I think it is

difficult to imagine how they are going to implement this huge, what

looks like a huge land and property grab. Through compulsory purchase

orders, which are not a simple instrument. They say they will

change the law but really the idea of paying people below the market

value for their assets is not something I can see sitting easily

with Tory backbenchers or the Tories in the House of Lords. Tom. Both

would appear superficially to be appealing to traditional left and

traditional right bases. What is more Tory than right to buy, then

councils sell on these houses, and Labour slapping a massive tax on the

city. The Tories' plan, I would say look a bit deeper and all of the

Tory narrative from the last six years which hasn't worked well is

talking about the private sector increasing supply in the market. Now

Mrs May is talking about the role for the state after all so this is

the shift creeping in. On the Labour transaction tax, one of the most

interesting things I heard in days was from Paul Mason, former BBC

correspondent, now a cog in Easter extreme. On Newsnight he said don't

worry about whether the Labour manifesto will add up, I'm promising

it will, the bigger Tory attack line should be what on earth will be the

macroeconomic effect of taking so much tax out of the system. Very

well, we shall see. At least we have some policies to talk about.

Now, on Tuesday Labour will launch its manifesto.

But we've already got a pretty good idea of what's in it -

that's because most of its contents were leaked to the media

Labour has a variety of spending pledges including an extra

?6 billion a year for the NHS, an additional ?8 billion for social

care over the lifetime of the next parliament,

as well as a ?250 billion in infrastructure over

The party will support the renewal of the Trident submarine system,

although any Prime Minister should be extremely cautious

about its use, and the party will hold a strategic defence

and security review immediately after the election.

In terms of immigration, Labour will seek "reasonable

management of migration", but it will not make "false

Elsewhere, university tuition fees will be abolished,

and the public sector pay cap, which limits pay rises

for public sector workers to 1%, will be scrapped.

The party also aims to renationalise the railways, the Royal Mail

and the National Grid, as well as creating at least one

A senior Labour backbencher described it to the Sunday Politics

as a manifesto for a leadership who don't "give a toss

about the wider public", and several other Labour candidates

told us they thought it had been deliberately

leaked by the leadership, with one suggesting

the leak was intended to "bounce the National Executive"

And we're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Business Secretary,

Welcome to the programme. The draft manifesto proposed to renationalise

the number of industry. You will wait for the franchises to run out

rather than buy them out at the moment so can you confirm the

railways will not be wholly nationalised until 2030, after three

Labour governments, and Jeremy Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to

comment on leaks, you will just have to be patient and wait to see what

is in our manifesto. But you have already announced you will

nationalise the railways, so tell me about it. We have discussed taking

the franchises into public ownership as they expire, however the detail

will be set out in the manifesto so I'm not prepared to go into detail

until that policy is formally laid out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound

very hopeful but let's carry on. You will also nationalise the National

Grid, it has a market capitalisation of ?40 billion, why do you want to

nationalise that? Again, I'm not going to speculate on leaks, you

will just have to be patient. But you said you will nationalise the

National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks have suggested but you will just

have to wait and see what the final manifesto states on that one. So is

it a waste of time me asking you how you will pay for something that

costs 40 billion? Be patient, just couple of days to go, but what I

would say is there is growing pressure from the public to reform

the utilities sector. The Competition and Markets Authority

stated in 2015 that bill payers were paying over till debt -- ?2 billion

in excess of what they should be paying so there is a clear need for

reform. The bills we get are from the energy companies, you are not

going to nationalise them, you are going to nationalise the

distribution company and I wondered what is the case for nationalising

the distribution company? As I said, our full plans will be set out on

Tuesday. In relation to the big six energy companies, we know in recent

years they have been overcharging customers... There's no point in

answering questions I am not asking. I am asking what is the case for

nationalising the National Grid? There is a case for reforming the

energy sector as a whole and that looks at the activities of the big

six companies and it will look at other aspects too. You will have to

be patient and wait until Tuesday. What about the Royal Mail? Again,

you will have to wait until Tuesday. Why can't you just be honest with

the British voter? We know you are going to do this and you have a duty

to explain. I'm not even arguing whether it is right or wrong. The

Royal Mail was sold off and we know it was sold under value and British

taxpayers have a reason to feel aggrieved about that. There is a

long-term strategy that would ensure the Royal Mail was classified as a

key piece of infrastructure but the details of that will be set out in

our manifesto because we want to ensure businesses and households

ensure the best quality of service when it comes to their postal

providers. You plan to borrow an extra 25 billion per year, John

McDonnell has already announced this, on public investment, on top

of the around 50 billion already being planned for investment. You

will borrow it all so that means, if you can confirm, that many years

after the crash by 2021, Labour government would still be borrowing

75 billion a year. Is that correct? We have set out ?250 billion of

capital investment, and ?250 billion for a national investment bank. Our

financial and fiscal rules dictate we will leave the Government in a

state of less debt than we found it at the start of the parliament so we

won't increase the national debt at the end of our Parliamentary term.

How can you do that if by 2021 you will still be borrowing around 75

billion a year, which is more than we borrow at the moment? The 500

billion figure is set out over a period of ten years, it's a figure

that has been suggested by Peter Helm from Oxford University as a

figure that is necessary to bring us in line with other industrial

competitors. Similar figures have been suggested by groups such as the

CBI. By the way I have not included all 500 billion, just the 250

billion on public spending, not the extra money. You talk about the

fiscal rules. The draft manifesto said you will leave debt as a

proportion of trend GDP law at the end of each parliament, you have

just said a version of that. What is trend GDP? In clear terms we will

ensure the debt we acquire will be reduced by the end of the

parliament. We won't leave the Government finances in a worse state

than we found them. OK, but what is trend GDP? Our rule is we will

ensure public sector net debt is less than we found it when we came

to power in Government on June the 8th. But that is not what your draft

manifesto says. I'm not going to comment on leaks, you are just going

to have to wait until Tuesday to look at the fine detail and perhaps

we will have another chat then. You have published your plans for

corporation tax and you will increase it by a third and your

predictions assumed that will get an extra 20 billion a year by the end

of the parliament. But that assumes the companies don't change their

behaviour, that they move money around, they leave the country or

they generate smaller profits. Is that realistic? You are right to

make that point and you will see when we set out our policies and

costings in the manifesto that we haven't spent all of the tax take.

We have allowed for different differentials and potential changes

in market activity because that would be approved and direction to

take. But corporation tax is allowed to be cut in France and the United

States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin. Many companies based in Britain are

already wondering whether they should relocate because of Brexit,

if you increase this tax by a third couldn't that clinch it for a number

of them? No, we will still be one of the lowest corporation tax rate in

the G7. Let's look at what's important for business. Cutting

corporation tax in itself doesn't improve productivity, or business

investment and there's no suggestion cutting corporation tax in recent

years has achieved that. Businesses need an investment in tools in

things they need to thrive and prosper, they also need to reduce

the burden at the lower end of the tax scale, before we get to the

Prophet stage. One key example is business rates. We have made the

proposal to government to in -- exclude machinery so businesses can

invest and grow operations in the future but the Government refused.

Corporation tax has been cut since 2010. When it was 28% it brought in

?43 billion a year. Now it is down to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a

year. By cutting it in the last year, it brought in 21% more, so

what is the problem? It might have brought in more money, but has it

increased business investment in the long term. It is not just about

cutting corporation tax, but it is on the ability of businesses to

thrive and prosper. Business investment in the UK is below are

industrial competitors. Wages are stagnating which doesn't indicate

businesses are not doing well. Let me get it right, you are arguing if

we increase business tax by a third, that will increase investment? I am

not saying that. You just did. Know I didn't, I said reducing business

tax isn't enough, you have to invest in the things businesses need to

thrive and prosper. You have also got to lessen the burden on

business. You have announced a financial transaction tax. Your own

labour Mayor of London said he has vowed to fight it. He said I do not

want a unilateral tax on business in our city, so why are you proceeding

with it? This isn't a new initiative, there is a growing

global pressure to make sure we have fairness in the financial sector.

Ordinary British people are paying for our banking crisis they didn't

cause. Another important point, stamp duty reserve tax was brought

in in the 1600 and there have been little reforms. The sector has

changed and we have do provide changes to the system for that

change. High-frequency trading where we have a state of affairs where a

lot of shares are traded on computers within milliseconds. We

need a tax system that keeps up with that. What happens if they move the

computers to another country? Emily Thornaby said this morning, other

countries had already introduced a financial transaction tax, what

other countries have done that? There are ten countries looking at

introducing a transaction tax. Which ones have done it so far? They will

be later announcing a final package, going through the finer detail at

the moment. But the European Commission tried to get this done in

2011 and it still hasn't happened in any of these countries. But you are

going to go ahead unilaterally and risk these businesses, which

generate a lot of money, moving to other jurisdictions. There is not a

significant risk of that happening. The stamp duty reserve tax is levied

at either where the person or company is domiciled or where the

instrument is issued rather than worth the transaction takes place.

This tax in itself is not enough to make people leave this country in

terms of financial services because there is more to keep these

businesses here in terms of the investment we are making, the

economy that Labour will build, in terms of productivity improvement we

will see. Thank you very much, Rebecca Long-Bailey.

And listening to that was the Home Office Minister, Brandon Lewis.

Over the years, you have got corporation tax by 20%, it is lower

than international standards, so why are so many global companies who

make money out of Great Britain, still not paying 20%? It is one of

the problems with the point Labour were making and Rebecca could not

answer, these companies can move around the world. One of the

important things is having a low tax economy but these businesses, it

encourages them to come at a rate they are prepared to pay. People may

say they are right, if they were paying 19, 20% incorporation tax.

But they are not. Google runs a multi-million pound corporation and

did not pay anywhere near 20%. There are companies that are trading

internationally and that is why we have to get this work done with our

partners around the world. Has there been an improvement? It is more than

they were paying before. Whether it is Google or any other company,

alongside them being here, apart from the tax they pay, it is the

people they employ. The deal was, if you cut the business tax, the

corporation tax on profits, we would get more companies coming here and

more companies paying their tax. It seems it doesn't matter how low, a

number of companies just pay a derisory amount and you haven't been

able to change that. As you outlined, the income taken from the

changing corporation tax has gone up. That is from established British

companies, not from these international companies. It is

because more companies are coming here and paying tax. That is a good

thing. There is always more to do and that is why we want to crack

down. In the last few weeks in the Finnish Parliament, Labour refused

to put to another ?8.7 billion of tax take we could have got by

cracking down further. You claim to have made great progress on cracking

down on people and companies to pay the tax they should. But the tax gap

is the difference between what HMRC takes in and what it should take in.

It has barely moved in five years, so where is the progress? He have

brought in 150 billion more where we have cracked down on those tax

schemes. The gap is still the same as it was five years ago. It's gone

from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down. The Prime Minister and the

Chancellor said they want to continue work on to get more money

on these companies while still having a competitive rate to

encourage these companies. While big business and the wealthy continue to

prosper, the Office for Budget Responsibility tell us those on

average earnings in this country will be earning less in real terms

by 2021 than they did in 2008. How can that be fair? I don't see it

that way. I haven't seen the figures you have got. What I can say to you,

Andrew, we have made sure the minimum wage has gone up, the actual

income tax people pay has gone down. So in their pocket, real terms,

people have more money. You are the self-styled party of work. We keep

emphasising work. Under your government you can work for 13 years

and still not earn any more at the end of it, and you did at the start.

Where is the reward for effort in that? I have not seen those figures.

There are 2.8 million more people, more jobs in economy than there was.

1000 jobs every day and people are working and developing through their

careers. This is what I thought was odd in what Rebecca was saying,

investing in people is what the apprenticeship levy is about,

companies are investing their works force to take more opportunities

that there. We are talking about fairness, politicians talk about

hard-working people and we know the average earnings are no higher than

they were in 2008. We know the pay and bonuses of senior executives

have continued to grow and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has

shown 3 million of the poorest households will lose an average of

?2500 a year in the next Parliament, benefits frozen, further sanctions

kick in. 3 million of the poorest losing 2500. Under the Tories, one

law for the rich and another for the poor. It is quite wrong. First of

all, we have got to be fair to the taxpayer who is funding the welfare

and benefit system. Which is why the welfare was right. Get more people

in work and then it is important to get more people upscaling. As that

allowance rises, people have more of the money they earn in their pocket

to be able to use in the economy. People will be worse off. 2500,

among the poorest already. They will have more money in their pocket as

we increase the allowance before people pay tax. We have seen

millions of people coming out of tax altogether. The reason I ask these

questions, you and the Prime Minister go on and on about the just

about managing classes. I am talking about the just about managing and

below that. It is all talk, you haven't done anything for them. We

have made sure they have an increasing minimum wage, it has gone

up more under us than any other previous government. Their wages

will be still lower in real terms. Let me come on to this plan for

housing. We have announced a new plan to increase affordable housing,

social housing, some council housing and social housing built by the

associations. How much money is behind this? It is part of the 1.4

billion announced in the Autumn Statement. How many homes will you

get for 1.4 billion? That depends on the negotiations with local

authorities. It is local authorities, who know the area best.

I will not put a number on that. 1.4 billion, if you price the house at

100,000, which is very low, particularly for the South, back at

you 14,000 new homes. That is it. What we have seen before, how the

local government can leveraged to build thousands more homes. That is

what we want to see across the country. It is not just about the

money, for a lot of local authorities it is about the

expertise and knowledge on how to do this. That is why support from the

housing communities minister will help. What is the timescale, how

many more affordable homes will be built? I will not put a number on

it. You announced it today, so you cannot tell me how many more or what

the target is? It is a matter of working with the local authorities

who know what their local needs are, what land they have got available.

What we saw through the local elections with the Metro mayors,

they want to deliver in their areas, whether it is the West of England,

the north-east, Liverpool, Manchester and we want to work with

them. You have said variations of this for the past seven years and I

want some credibility. When you cannot tell us how much money, what

the target and timescale is, and this government, under which

affordable house building has fallen to a 24 year low. 1.2 million

families are on waiting lists for social housing to rent. That is your

record. Why should we believe a word you say? This is different to what

we have been doing over the last two years. We want to develop and have a

strong and stable economy that can sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This

is important. In 2010, we inherited the lowest level of house building,

75,000 new homes. That is about 189,000 over the last four years.

That is a big step forward after the crash, getting people back into the

industry. More first-time buyers onto the market. Final question, in

2010, 2011, your first year in government, there were 60,000

affordable homes built. May not be enough, but last day it was 30 2000.

So why should we trust anything you say about this? On housing, we have

delivered. We have delivered more social housing. Double what Labour

did in 13 years, in just five years. This is what this policy is about,

working with local authorities to deliver more homes to people in

their local areas. Thank you. Now, they have a deficit

of between 15 and 20% in the polls, but Jeremy Corbyn and those

around him insist Labour can win. If the polls are right they've got

three and half weeks to change voters' minds and persuade those

fabled undecided voters We enlisted the polling organisation

YouGov to help us find out how the performance of party leaders

will affect behaviour Leeds, a city of three quarters

of a million people, eight Parliamentary seats and home

to our very own focus group. Our panel was recruited

from a variety of backgrounds and the majority say they haven't

decided who to vote for yet. Watching behind the glass,

two experts on different sides Giles Cunningham, who headed up

political press at Downing Street under David Cameron

and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter, under David Cameron

and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter, I think Theresa May sees herself

as a pound shop Thatcher. Milliband's policies but when it

came about who you want,

if you wake up on maybe a 2015, We found in a couple of focus

groups, people saying we'd be quite relieved,

even though some of those same people have been saying we quite

like the Labour policies. I think the fact that Corbyn's

going so hard on his values, this is a really progressive

manifesto, they live But I think that's a new challenge,

that wasn't there in 2015. Is there anyone here that

you don't recognise? After a little warm up,

the first exercise, recognising I think it's nice to have a strong

woman in politics, I do. But I've got to say,

when she comes on the news, I kind of do think,

here we go again. Tell me about Tim Farron, what

are your impressions of Tim Farron? It isn't going to do anything,

it isn't going to change anything. You'll be surprised to hear it's

actually the Greens. Strong and stable leadership

in the national interest. Yes, Team May, it's

the British equivalent of make What do we think about this one

for the many and not the few? It's not quite as bad

as strong and stable, but it will probably get

on our nerves after a while. We must seize that chance today

and every day until June the 8th. But that's not quite my

question, my question is, if you are Prime Minister,

we will leave, come hell or high water, whatever is on the table

at the end of the negotiations? If we win the election,

we'll get a good deal with Europe. Assertive and in control

and he felt comfortable But the second one, I thought

he was very hesitant. I thought he was kind of,

hovering around, skirting around and that's the second

time I've seen a similar interview with the question

being asked regarding Brexit. I don't think I'd have

any confidence with him You think you are going up

against some quite strong people, how are you going to stand

up for us? When you are in negotiations,

you need to be tough. And actually is right

to be tough sometimes, particularly when you are doing

something for the country. There's a reason for talking

about strong and stable leadership. It's about the future

of the country, it's It's just that people kind of listen

to that kind of thing and think Both on The One Show

and in the news. She attracts the public better

than what Corbyn does. She didn't answer the question

in a more articular way than Corbyn Imagine that Theresa

May is an animal. So, in your minds,

what animal is coming to mind I've done a Pekinese because I think

she's all bark and no bite. Alpaca because she's

superior looking and woolly I don't think his policies

are for the modern, real world. A mouse because they are weak

and they can be easily bullied, but also they can catch

you by surprise if you're What do you take away

from what you saw then, and what message would you send back

to the Tories now? I think what came over is people see

Theresa May as a strong politician, not everyone likes her,

but you don't need to be liked to be elected,

because ultimately it's about who do you trust with your future

and your security. I think what I also take out

of that focus group, was it was a group of floating

voters, there was no huge appetite for the Lib Dems and there was no

huge appetite for Ukip. So my messaged back to CCHQ

would be stick to the plan. I thought the response

to the manifesto was excellent. It's clear that people aren't

particularly keen on Theresa May, There are some associations with her

about strength and stability, which is exactly what the Tory party

want of course, but they are not positive and nobody thinks

that she has a vision So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn,

what I'd say to the Labour Party is, they need to really emphasise

the manifesto in Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform

out of his skin and I think he has to reemphasise those

characteristics which may be have come to the fore may be

over the last 12 months, resilience, strength and the fact

that he's come this far, why not take that final step and go

into ten Downing Street? We're joined now by the American

political consultant For the sake of this discussion,

assume the polls at the moment are broadly right, is there any hope for

Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters? Know, and this is a very serious

collection with serious consequences to who wins. Nobody cares whether

you can draw and what animal they represent, they want to know where

they stand, and I felt that was frivolous. I come to Britain to

watch elections because I learned from here. Your elections are more

substantial, more serious, more policy and less about personality

and that peace was only about personality. That's partly because

Mrs May has decided to make this a presidential election. You can see

on the posters it is all Team May. I agree with that, and in her language

she says not everyone benefits from a Conservative government, I don't

see how using anything Republicans have used in the past. In fact her

campaign is more of a centrist Democrats but it is a smart strategy

because it pushes Corbyn further to the left. Of course you said Hillary

Clinton have won. On election night the polling was so bad in America,

the exit polls that were done, the BBC told America she had won. No, I

was anchoring the programme that night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC

had the same numbers. Yes, but we did not say she had won, I can

assure you of that. Because of people like you we thought she had

but we didn't broadcast it. That was a smart approach. My point is other

than teasing you, maybe there is hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you

will have one of the lowest turnout in modern history and I think Labour

will fall to one of the lowest percentages, not percentage of

number of seats they have had, and this will be a matter of

soul-searching for both political parties. What you do with a sizeable

majority, and she has a responsibility to tell the British

people exactly what happens as she moves forward. He and Labour will

have to take a look at whether they still represent a significant slice

of the British population. Do you see a realignment in British

politics taking place? I see a crumbling of the left and yet there

is still a significant percentage of the British population that once

someone who is centre-left. And they like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies.

I'm listening to Michael foot. I went to school here in the 1980s and

I feel like I'm watching the Labour Party of 35 years ago, in a

population that wants to focus on the future, not the past. Thank you.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.

Can you ever have too much of a good thing?

Two general elections and a referendum in just two years?

It's no laughing matter for comedian Eddie Izzard,

taking to the streets against the "stay-at-home factor"

in some of the lowest-voting areas of Britain.

Hotfoot from the campaign trail this Sunday morning:

Shabana Mahmood for Labour and James Morris for the Conservatives,

both erstwhile MPs who are now hoping to live to fight another day.

And we'll also be hearing why the Trade Unionist

and Socialist Coalition, otherwise known as TUSC,

will not be standing in next month's election.

But we begin out on the stump with Jeremy Corbyn.

He came to Leamington Spa and Worcester.

Both were held by Labour during the Blair-Brown years,

but won back by the Conservatives in 2010.

They are exactly the sort of "Middle England" constituencies

Labour must re-capture if they're to make any headway on June the 8th.

In Worcester, Mr Corbyn was joined by supporters,

including one of Nuneaton's famous sons, the film director Ken Loach.

Earlier the Labour leader had announced a new policy to abolish

hospital car parking charges for patients and staff.

If you visit a hospital because you want to look

after an elderly relative, or give support to a friend,

or go there in an emergency, I don't think you should be charged

I've just been talking also to a group of nurses,

some of whom are community nurses and therefore have to go

to different hospitals at different times.

Others come in to do night shifts at difficult times when there is no

They need to be able to park their car.

Unfortunately, in many cases, they have to pay for the privilege

of parking at a place of work where they have to be,

and they have had frozen pay for the past seven years.

Car parking charges at up to ?10 per day in some local hospitals. James

Morrison is Jeremy Hunt's parliamentary Private Secretary, you

know how this infuriates many people in our part of the country,

especially those sections of the committee most likely to vote. Mr

Corbyn could be onto something. We introduced giving discretion to

trust to make decisions about local things, but the broadest point is

whether the NHS is we have put ?10 billion further into the NHS to

kick-start a five-year review. We have more nurses and more doctors in

the NHS, Jeremy Corbyn can pick a particular policies from the league,

chaotic manifesto, but they don't add up to anything, other than

taking us back to the 1970s. Use a late and chaotic, but looking

at individual proposals in there, popular appeal. Public ownership of

the railways and Royal Mail. ?8 billion extra for social care.

I think it is a shambles and chaotic in that it takes us back to the

1970s. The proposals I have seen in this manifesto basically put at risk

all of the things that we have achieved over the last seven years,

high levels of employment, getting the deficit under control... This

would take us back to the 1970s and is too much of a risk.

I think the picture he is painting of the National Health Service is

not what your viewers will have experienced if they have been

engaging with the NHS. We know the NHS is under unprecedented crisis,

emergency. I defy James to sit here emergency. I defy James to sit here

and say it is not. The idea this is a Government that has been investing

heavily in the one public service that everybody knows... Let me

finish, James. It is under great stress, and actually on car parking

charges the idea that people when they are taking a sick relative have

to pay, I think is something people think is immoral.

Chief executive of the NHS said he needed ?10 billion to kick-start the

five-year plan for the NHS and that is what we have invested. There are

more doctors and more nurses and the NHS than ever before, and more than

there were any previous Labour Government.

But there is a crisis in the NHS. Appointing former shadow Treasury

minister yourself, -- pointing to... Does Labour need a money tree to

invest that isn't costing... What about the risk of taking so much in

taxation out of the British economy? As a former Treasury specialist that

must be a concern. John McDonnell said he will release

all the costings of every puzzle in the manifesto when it is officially

launched rather than the leaked version. -- of every point in the

manifesto. In the end what I know for my time in the shadow Treasury

team is theirs is about choices. Making an explicit choice that we

will borrow for capital investment I think is a sensible economic choice

to be making, and different choices on corporation tax.

John McDonnell says he is a Marxist. If the British people do not trust

them to run the British economy... He allegedly said so but I think

that is an issue for another... Energy for another day but people

will look at the manifesto and the job policies and it was an manifesto

people will like. Two general elections

and a referendum, in just two years. Plus those elections

for the Metro Mayor If voting is your thing,

you've never had it so good. But is it just as likely others may

be feeling "electioned-out"? Four of the UK's lowest turnouts

at the last general election were in our part of the country,

with Stoke Central rock bottom Rob Mayor has been canvassing

opinions this time round. Out on the streets of Birmingham -

this seat had one of the lowest In 2015 almost half the people

in Erdington didn't bother to vote - perhaps a registration

drive with a sprinkling If you do nothing, it definitely

doesn't make a difference. If you do nothing at all,

if you do not register, and if you do not vote,

that definitely will not It doesn't always make

a massive difference, but, definitely, not voting

makes zero difference. Round the corner on

the bowling green, over-65s were twice as likely

as under-25s to vote last time. They can't be bothered

to make up their minds, The reason I don't vote much now

is cos I've got nobody to take me, and I'm not going to walk

all that way. People, I think, used to vote

quite regularly at one time, but now I think people have just

lost interest in politics. Of the ten seats with the lowest

turnout in 2015, In Walsall North,

turnout was just 55%. In Birmingham Erdington Birmimgham

Ladywood, it was just 53%, whilst in Stoke-on-Trent Central,

fewer than half voted. And that dropped by a further 12%

at the by-election in February. It's not the West Midlanders

who are to blame - it's the nature of

the constituencies. And we know that throughout

the West Midlands there are quite a number of constituencies

which are Labour strongholds, so much so that, as a Labour voter,

you could be forgiven for thinking, we know Labour's going

to hold onto this seat. The solution is to have politicians

and a political class that appeal to people,

mobilise them and motivate them, and that's what we have been missing

for a generation in politics. Some of the doctor's students will

vote for the first time in June, but say more could be done

to encourage young people. It's very difficult for young people

to see the difference between the main political parties,

so it's difficult to choose. I have heard people saying,

not just young people, that they feel as though their vote

won't have any significance. I couldn't register in time to vote

for the mayoral election, and I just remember how frustrated

I was that there wasn't, just, you know, an app

that I could download, put in my age, put in my

postcode, put in my name So perhaps the missing

voters will be tempted in by the chance of a change -

there's a huge number of people And we have just heard the American

polling expert telling Andrew Neal he expects this general election to

have an ultra low turnout. We have been looking at the numbers in

constituencies which our politicians here have represented and hope to do

again. We looked at Ladywood in Birmingham, that is in this rogues

gallery of ultralow turnouts, 40% in 2010. Just over half, 52% last time.

Not exactly a big endorsement. I think we have had low turnout in

Ladywood for a while. It is a real problem and there is a range of

factors. We have a much younger population than most constituencies

and a more transient population. My own view is we have decreasing

turnout across the country for all of the different types of elections

that we have. I know just what we were all thinking it was a triumph

of turnout at the West Midlands May oral election nearly had a 30%

turnout, that I was a triumph. It's not really a triumph... 70% did not

vote which is a tragedy in my view. I am more open-minded these days

about the idea of compulsory voting. It is part of a fundamental contract

with your state that you do vote. Halesowen and Rowley Regis, James,

2010 69%, 2015 59%. I think the point is that over the

last few years, we have detected more engagement, actually.

Particularly after the EU referendum. I think that after the

EU referendum people are more engaged, knowing that there are some

very important decisions that we are making about the future of the

country. And when you have an election which is about a very clear

choice about the future of the country in this world, or we have

decided to leave the EU referendum, my experience on the doorstep in my

constituency is that people are very engaged with the decision they made

-- need to make in this referendum. One thing is that the referendum is

a baseline, a referendum is a binary choice, one of the other, yes or no,

that is not held general elections are local or mayoral elections are,

because they are about broader policy, the future direction of this

country... And the turnout... Some would argue there is a binary

choice in this election between a strong leadership Theresa May...

Get your lines out, James, but it is much more fundamental...

That is the choice presented to the visual action and they are engaged

in that choice between the qualities of the people who will lead this

country for a very important negotiations went... With our

leaving from the EU... Will expect a row to be crushingly

low. Lower still if according to your

draft manifesto you want 16-year-olds to get the vote, which

will make the turnout even lower. It is looking at the franchise and

who is able to vote in trying to get a habit of voting into citizens

from, you know, the endless possible age, so it becomes a norm you do.

But you don't have that habit when you're 18 or 21 or whatever, then it

is harder to form that habit. It is not like there is a knowledge and

every week. It feels like that, but in the normal run of things they are

every few years, and making that habit is quite difficult. That is

why I personally observing to think as a society we need to have a

rethink about the way we do voting. You agree? That has not been seen to

be the British way but maybe we have got to the stage...

I don't agree about compulsion. In a democracy people should have the

freedom to decide that they don't want to vote for any of the above.

But it is the job of politicians and the job of our political process to

engage people on the issues facing the country.

No pacts... "No pacts. No deals.

No trade-offs." That's been the stock

response from most political parties over the years,

to suggestions that they might stand aside for the sake of other,

like-minded candidates. This time though, one party

which has fought large numbers of seats in previous elections,

will not be standing at all. The Trade Unionist and Socialist

Coalition is stepping aside to give Jeremy Corbyn the best possible

chance of becoming Prime Minister. The Trade Unionist and Socialist

Coalition was launched ahead This is the biggest party

you have never heard of. Actually, we are the sixth-biggest

party in the country, At the last general election,

the party fought 135 constituencies across the country

on an anti-cuts agenda. We have had enough of

the establishment parties. They serve the interests

of the 1%, not the 99%. The whole political

system is bankrupt. They've also fielded

hundreds of candidates in local elections too,

but they have just TUSC chairman Dave Nellist

was expelled from the Labour Party in 1991 because of his connections

to the Militant Tendency. The former Coventry MP was a close

ally of Labour left-wingers In November, Mr Nellist was among

a group of 70 left-wingers who applied to rejoin

the Labour Party to support Mr Corbyn, but Labour rules prevent

members of other parties And Dave Nellist,

chair of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition,

is here with us now. Are you giving up? Have you had

enough? Not at all. This is not a blank

cheque. It is a one-off deal. We started seven years ago, by the

transport union the RMT, with an overlapping agenda between the main

parties... Earlier interviewees said you cannot tell the difference but

now I think you can tell the difference. The leaked manifesto

from Jeremy Corbyn, public ownership, raising wages, more money

for the NHS, could make a fundamental difference on the 8th of

June we want that to have the chance.

When you and your colleagues tried to reapply to the Labour Party they

did not want you back, so why do them favours now? Element there are

two Labour parties. Jeremy's socialist manifesto, and a machinery

of the Labour Party preventing thousands of people... I hope to

reapply on June the 9th to Bremen Mr Corbyn.

to others and TUSC. With the help to to others and TUSC. With the help to

reapply? Is that what it is about? I think if

Jeremy wins on June the 8th could be quite a large are people who want to

be part of a major change in Britain. Repeat those busy policies

you discussed already in health service and schools and things, they

are game changers, particularly for young people and they should be

given the chance. Is really an admission of fever that

over the years you have not broken through? It is still as you said all

those years ago the party you have probably never heard of.

We have had modest results but I think these elections will be closer

than your or Andrew's guest was talking about, low turnout. There

are some seats for example, without naming them, part of the country

where I have stood, were depending how the Ukip vote collapses, looks

like that is going to happen, but between Labour and Tories it will be

close. I got nearly 2000 votes in the seat I stood in two years ago

and I could be the difference between sending a Tory MP to

Westminster or a Labour MP. And the point today, I spent some

time this past week in North Birmingham, and the anti-austerity

message, I can assure you, is something very much talked about on

the streets there. Not just Brexit.

This election is about a series of issues, the future of the country,

and David his allies want to take the country back to the 1970s.

Yes! By putting at risk all the things we

have achieved over the last five or seven years. More people in work

than ever before in this country. Enabling us to invest in public

services like the NHS, like education, because we have a strong

economy... That is what this election is about.

Sorry, in the 1970s, a worker in a unionised factory in the Midlands

could get a house on two or three times their wages. Young people

today have to get eight or ten times an average wage. I would go back to

the quality of the 1970s... Jeromy Corbyn. Rather than the 1870s with

the Tories. There are colleagues of yours in the

West Midlands another part of the country who take a view that an

and Socialist Coalition is like a and Socialist Coalition is like a

hole in their head as endorsement. I will not give an argument about

the 1970s as I was born in 1980. But my colleagues are focused just on

their campaigns and making sure that they are standing on our manifesto,

and their local track record as MPs fighting for their constituencies,

against the cuts we have seen under this Government, and I am surprised

that James mentions funding in schools when he well knows that

actually the funding formula proposed by the Conservative Party

is going to mean large scale cuts, 50 out of 55 schools in central

Bremen losing funding. With... Reign James said this is a

one-off stand down against the Labour Party and I think that will

count against Vanity reapplies. Isn't isn't the key one in this part

of the country a decision by Ukip not to field candidates in key areas

like North Birmingham where I was? That would have a really big impact

on the chances of the Labour Party in some key areas.

I think the decision of Ukip is to do with the lapsing of falling apart

and losing financial backing. Seeing the Tory party take up many of its

ideas. -- Ukip has collapsed. I think Jeromy appeals to working

class voters, working class socialist people who wanted Brexit,

and I think he actually made a mistake in the last year or so, with

the referendum. He and I worked with Tony Benn in 1975... They always

believe we wanted to get out of the Thatcherism on a continental scale

and give working class factory is the priority. If they did that you

could soak up the Ukip voters. In my constituency, Jeremy Corbyn's

views about not believing in national defence and this country is

going down like a lead balloon. On the TV programme 's earlier

today... I understand that that is the paper

trail the Conservative Party want to make but the Labour Party is

committed... It is not a betrayal but the truth.

We are in favour of Trident renewal. Is Jeremy Corbyn in favour of

Trident renewal? I don't think he is.

The Labour Party, look at our record on what will be in the manifesto on

other important issues. other important issues.

into office? into office?

This'll be a close election. Started off with 23% Tory lead three weeks

ago, a local elections translate that an 11% lead, and the manifesto

everything divide for an look everything divide for an look

forward to winning the election -- I look forward to Jeremy Corbyn

winning the election on the 8th of June.

Let's have an update on more of the developments

Our round-up in 60 Seconds is brought to us today

West Midlands Mayor Andy Street has chosen Conservative

colleague Bob Sleigh, the leader of Solihull Council,

Jeremy Corbyn received an unusual offer on his way to a stump

What is it about politicians and bananas?

Labour's Deputy Leader Tom Watson was forced to deny leaking

the Labour manifesto when he was confronted

In this aptly named street in Dudley North, voters seem

to have things other than the General Election

And former Prime Minister Gordon Brown was in Coventry to deliver

a message to protect the region's car industry in the

We cannot allow the car industry to have tariffs and taxes imposed

on it simply because some people refuse to work with

Yes, and much of what Gordon Brown was saying their chimes with the

boss of jaguar Land Rover who is very concerned about keeping access

to his company's biggest markets, the biggest market in Europe for

them. Concerned as you are about the deal Theresa May is heading towards.

The deal which Theresa May will get with the EU will be a process of two

years of hard negotiations. The negotiations are compact and

difficult and she will be wanting to protect the interests of the British

car industry in order to get full access or as much access to the

single market as possible. But the question is, there will be concise

negotiations but we need a strong leadership in order to deliver the

negotiations and get the best deal for the car industry.

And you have the signal a willingness to play hardball

whenever you go into the start of a negotiation.

Yes, that may be true, but actually the problem for the Brexiteers is

they have not yet considered the fact it will not just be the car

sector that wants to try to protect its current status

quo, which is money jobs depended on, it is another range of sectors

as well, and the problem with Theresa May saying simply, Brexit

means Brexit, Izzy is not engaging with the issues and on down the

track the food industry and the Bar industry will want proper answers

otherwise we will start to lose support in constituencies up and

down the country. The clock has beaten us.

My thanks to Shabana Mahmood and James Morris.

Finally from me, after all this talk of low turnouts,

You may not want to be, but if you do, you have one

week left to register, or to apply for a postal

The deadline is a week tomorrow, and you can do it either online

or by post to your local electoral registration office.

Before this programme turns into a public information announcement,

emotive subject and we have run out of time.

On Thursday nominations closed in the 650 parliamentary

seats across the country, so now we know exactly who's

We've been analysing the parties' candidates to find out

what they might tell us about the make-up of the House

Well, we know Theresa May is committed to delivering Brexit and

analysis of Conservative candidates has shown that

in their top 100 target seats, 37 candidates supported leave

during last year's referendum campaign

and 20 supported remain; 43 have not made public

In the last parliament, the vast majority of Labour MPs

were hostile to Jeremy Corbyn so how supportive are Labour

Well, of 50 of Labour's top 100 target seats

17 candidates have expressed support for Mr Corbyn.

20 candidates supported Owen Smith in last year's leadership contest

or have expressed anti-Corbyn sentiment, and

If they won those, the Labour benches would be

marginally more sympathetic to Mr Corbyn than they are now.

What do the figures tell us about where the other

Well, the Lib Dems have decided not to stand against the Greens

in Brighton Pavilion, and are fielding 629

candidates this year - that's two fewer than 2015.

The number of Ukip candidates has fallen dramatically.

They are standing in 247 fewer constituencies than 2015,

throwing their support behind solidly pro-Brexit Tories

in some areas such as Lewes and Norfolk North.

The Greens are fielding 103 fewer candidates

than at the last election, standing down to help

other progressive candidates in some places.

The most liking statistic is the demise in Ukip candidates, is this

their swansong? And I think so. It is remarkable how few Ukip

candidates are standing. It is hard to see they will suddenly revive in

the next couple of years. I think this is probably the end. Frank

Luntz mentioned the fragmentation of the left was a feature of this

election, but also there is the consolidation of the right, and if

you take the things together that could explain why the polls are

where they are. Absolutely, that's precisely what happened at the start

of the 1980s, the right was incredibly united and that's when we

started talking about majorities of over 100 or so. No matter what the

size of Theresa May's majority, it will be the total collapse of Ukip,

but not just because we are now leaving the EU and that was their

only reason for being, but a whole lot of people voted for Ukip because

they felt the Tories were no longer listening. Theresa May has given the

impression that she is listening, and that is the biggest possible

thing that could happen to the Tory vote. Fragmentation of the left,

consolidation of the right? It's one of the lessons that is never learnt,

it happened in the 1980s, it doesn't take much for the whole thing to

fracture so now you have on the centre-left the SNP, the Labour

Party, the Greens, the Liberal Democrats all competing for the same

votes and when you have, fleetingly perhaps, large numbers coalescing on

the right in one party, there is only going to be one outcome. It

happens regularly. It doesn't mean the Tories haven't got their own

fragility. Two years ago, David Cameron and George Osborne the

dominant figures, neither are in Parliament now which is a symptom of

the fragility this election is disguising. Mrs May's position in a

way reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in the 1980s, I won't be outflanked on

the right, Nicolas Sarkozy in France, I won't be outflanked on the

right, so the National Front didn't get through either timed he ran to

the second round on like this time, and now Mrs May on Brexit won't be

outflanked Iver and as a result has seen off right flank. And also she

is looking to the left as well with some of the state interventions.

What was interesting about the analysis you showed a few minutes

ago was the number of Tory candidates who have apparently not

declared which way they voted in the referendum, and you would have

thought if this election was all about Brexit, as some would claim,

that would become an unsustainable position, and actually more it's

about leadership. But the point that I'm now hearing from a number of

Labour candidates that they are seeing Tory leaflets that don't even

have the Tory candidate's name on them, it is just about Theresa May.

I am glad they are keeping to the law because by law they have to put

it on. It has been harder for some of the smaller parties too because

of the speed of the election being called. We have the manifesto is

coming out this week. I think Labour Forshaw on Tuesday, we are not yet

sure when the Tories will bring bears out. I suggest one thing, it

will at least for people like me bring an end to the question you

will have to wait for the manifesto. And Rebecca Long baby will never

have that excuse again, isn't it wonderful! She is not the only one.

When you are trying to take the north and Midlands from Labour, I

would go to one or the other. For me, I can barely hold back my

excitement over the Tory manifesto. This will be, I think, the most

important day for the British government for the next five years.

That wasn't irony there? You actually meant that? I'm not even

being cynical at all on Sunday Politics! This is a huge day and

it's because I think we will see... I don't think Mrs May will play it

safe and I don't think we will get the broadbrush stuff that she might

be advised to do. I think she will lay out precisely what you want to

do over the next five years and take some big risks. Then finally after a

year of this guessing and theorising, we will finally work out

what Mrs May is all about. She will say she doesn't want the next

parliament to be all about Brexit, though she knows that's the next

important thing she has to deliver in some way, so she gets a mandate

for that if the polls are right but she

does have very different ideas from Mr Cameron about how to run a

country. She will I assume one to mandate for what these different

ideas are. Otherwise there is no point in holding an early election.

You will get a majority, but if you get a mandate to carry on

implementing the Cameron and Osborne manifesto it would be utterly

pointless. I agree, it is the pivotal event of the election and it

will be interesting to see the degree to which she expands on the

line which interests me about its time to look at the good that

government can do. Because in a way this moves the debate on in UK

politics from, from 97 the Blair Brown governments were insecure

about arguing about the role of government. Cameron Osborne

government similarly so, so here you have a Labour Party talking about

the role of government and the state, and Tory leader apparently

doing so was well. I think that will be really interesting to see whether

it is fleshed out in any significant way. And it is not a natural Tory

message. Harold Macmillan talked about the role of the state, Ted

Heath Mark two was pretty big on the state, the industrial policy and so

on, and even if it is not thought to be that Tory, does she get away with

it because she deliver such a big victory if that's what she does

deliver? Just inject a little note of scepticism, I wonder how much of

this is authentically Theresa May. I was interested to and talk to

someone who used to sit in cabinet meetings during which Theresa May

never expressed an opinion on anything outside the Home Office

briefs. Other ministers were roving all over their colleagues' briefs.

So where are the ideas coming from? I think we can point to Nick

Timothy. One of her closest advisers in Downing Street. It will be

interesting to see how that evolves. On Thursday I think we will all be

talking about something called Urdington Toryism. Urdington is the

suburb of Birmingham where Nick Timothy comes from, who is very much

Theresa May's policy brain and leading inspiration. Urdington

Toryism is about connecting the party with traditional working class

voters, and their belief to do that is not just taking away government

out of their lives but showing them that government can actually help

their lives. It can be a force for good to rebuild the trust. A lot of

what Mrs May talks about is all... It is talk and then a lot of it

suddenly goes by the wayside. What happened to worker directors on the

boards. It is designed to appeal to that constituency and then nothing

happens. She had an excuse before in the sense that it wasn't in the 2015

manifesto and she had a small majority so therefore she arguably

had to water down some of the stuff for example in her Tory conference

speech, which had a lot of this active government material in it. If

she puts it in the manifesto, it is a sign she plans to do it and will

have no excuse if she then gets nervous afterwards because it will

be in there. If it wasn't for Brexit, this great overwhelming

issue, I think this election will be seen as quite a significant

development in terms of an argument around the role of government,

much-needed. But Brexit unfortunately overshadows it all. As

much as we like our arguments over the role of government we will hear

strong and stable, stable and strong ad nauseam, aren't we? Absolutely,

and we heard the same old lines from the Labour Party as well so they are

all at it. It will be a fascinating week, stop talking it down! Thanks

to our panel. The Daily Politics will be

back on BBC Two at noon I'll be back here at the same time

on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,

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