14/05/2017 Sunday Politics West Midlands


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14/05/2017

Andrew Neil and Patrick Burns are joined by shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey, housing minister Brandon Lewis and American political pollster Frank Luntz.


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:40.

Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes

:00:41.:00:44.

in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -

:00:45.:00:46.

Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax

:00:47.:00:53.

to fund public services, but will traders just

:00:54.:00:55.

Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,

:00:56.:00:59.

insists he can win this election - so which way will

:01:00.:01:02.

We'll hear from a focus group in Leeds.

:01:03.:01:05.

And in the Midlands: Two general elections

:01:06.:01:07.

It's no laughing matter keeping people interested

:01:08.:01:10.

We'll keep you interested in half an hour.

:01:11.:01:15.

and here, what the parties are saying about tackling the air

:01:16.:01:17.

pollution problem in London. And with me, our own scientifically

:01:18.:01:25.

selected focus group of political pundits -

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they're not so much undecided as clueless -

:01:30.:01:31.

Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott They'll be tweeting

:01:32.:01:33.

throughout the programme. So, we've got two new

:01:34.:01:40.

policies this morning. Labour say they will introduce

:01:41.:01:42.

a financial transaction tax if they win the general election

:01:43.:01:44.

and what they're calling "the biggest crackdown on tax

:01:45.:01:47.

avoidance in the country's history". The Conservatives say they'll work

:01:48.:01:49.

with local authorities in England to build council houses

:01:50.:01:52.

with the right to buy. Theresa May says the policy

:01:53.:01:54.

"will help thousands of people get on the first rung

:01:55.:01:56.

of the housing ladder". Steve, what do you make of them? I

:01:57.:02:09.

have been conditioned after doing tax and spend debates in

:02:10.:02:13.

pre-election periods for many decades to treat policy is not as

:02:14.:02:17.

literal but as arguments. In other words if you look back to 2015 the

:02:18.:02:22.

Tory plan to wipe out the deficit was never going to happen and yet it

:02:23.:02:26.

framed and large event. In that sense the Robin Hood tax is a

:02:27.:02:30.

sensible move for Labour to make at this point because it is part of a

:02:31.:02:35.

narrative of reconfiguring taxation to be fair. Treating it as an

:02:36.:02:38.

argument rather than something that would happen in day one of Labour

:02:39.:02:46.

government is sensible. In terms of building houses Theresa May said

:02:47.:02:48.

right from the beginning when she was in Number Ten that there is a

:02:49.:02:51.

housing deficit in this country rather than the economic deficit

:02:52.:02:56.

George Osborne was focusing on, and this is an example of trying to get

:02:57.:03:00.

house-building going. It seems entirely sensible, not sure how it

:03:01.:03:04.

works with right to buy but again as framing of a 90 minute it makes

:03:05.:03:09.

sense. I disagree with Steve on one front which is how sensible Theresa

:03:10.:03:17.

May's policy is on the housing announcement. I think more broadly

:03:18.:03:21.

these two announcements have something in common which is that

:03:22.:03:25.

over the next 24 hours both will probably unravel in different ways.

:03:26.:03:31.

Ye of little faith! The Mayor of London has already said he doesn't

:03:32.:03:35.

agree with this, and when people see the actual impact of what looks like

:03:36.:03:41.

a populist tax will very potentially affect people's pensions, it might

:03:42.:03:46.

become a lot less popular. On the Tory housing plans, I think it is

:03:47.:03:50.

difficult to imagine how they are going to implement this huge, what

:03:51.:03:55.

looks like a huge land and property grab. Through compulsory purchase

:03:56.:04:01.

orders, which are not a simple instrument. They say they will

:04:02.:04:05.

change the law but really the idea of paying people below the market

:04:06.:04:08.

value for their assets is not something I can see sitting easily

:04:09.:04:13.

with Tory backbenchers or the Tories in the House of Lords. Tom. Both

:04:14.:04:20.

would appear superficially to be appealing to traditional left and

:04:21.:04:24.

traditional right bases. What is more Tory than right to buy, then

:04:25.:04:31.

councils sell on these houses, and Labour slapping a massive tax on the

:04:32.:04:39.

city. The Tories' plan, I would say look a bit deeper and all of the

:04:40.:04:42.

Tory narrative from the last six years which hasn't worked well is

:04:43.:04:46.

talking about the private sector increasing supply in the market. Now

:04:47.:04:50.

Mrs May is talking about the role for the state after all so this is

:04:51.:04:58.

the shift creeping in. On the Labour transaction tax, one of the most

:04:59.:05:02.

interesting things I heard in days was from Paul Mason, former BBC

:05:03.:05:09.

correspondent, now a cog in Easter extreme. On Newsnight he said don't

:05:10.:05:13.

worry about whether the Labour manifesto will add up, I'm promising

:05:14.:05:17.

it will, the bigger Tory attack line should be what on earth will be the

:05:18.:05:24.

macroeconomic effect of taking so much tax out of the system. Very

:05:25.:05:29.

well, we shall see. At least we have some policies to talk about.

:05:30.:05:32.

Now, on Tuesday Labour will launch its manifesto.

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But we've already got a pretty good idea of what's in it -

:05:35.:05:37.

that's because most of its contents were leaked to the media

:05:38.:05:40.

Labour has a variety of spending pledges including an extra

:05:41.:05:48.

?6 billion a year for the NHS, an additional ?8 billion for social

:05:49.:05:51.

care over the lifetime of the next parliament,

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as well as a ?250 billion in infrastructure over

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The party will support the renewal of the Trident submarine system,

:05:56.:06:03.

although any Prime Minister should be extremely cautious

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about its use, and the party will hold a strategic defence

:06:05.:06:07.

and security review immediately after the election.

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In terms of immigration, Labour will seek "reasonable

:06:11.:06:12.

management of migration", but it will not make "false

:06:13.:06:15.

Elsewhere, university tuition fees will be abolished,

:06:16.:06:21.

and the public sector pay cap, which limits pay rises

:06:22.:06:23.

for public sector workers to 1%, will be scrapped.

:06:24.:06:27.

The party also aims to renationalise the railways, the Royal Mail

:06:28.:06:30.

and the National Grid, as well as creating at least one

:06:31.:06:37.

A senior Labour backbencher described it to the Sunday Politics

:06:38.:06:42.

as a manifesto for a leadership who don't "give a toss

:06:43.:06:45.

about the wider public", and several other Labour candidates

:06:46.:06:47.

told us they thought it had been deliberately

:06:48.:06:49.

leaked by the leadership, with one suggesting

:06:50.:06:53.

the leak was intended to "bounce the National Executive"

:06:54.:06:55.

And we're joined now from Salford by the Shadow Business Secretary,

:06:56.:06:59.

Welcome to the programme. The draft manifesto proposed to renationalise

:07:00.:07:07.

the number of industry. You will wait for the franchises to run out

:07:08.:07:12.

rather than buy them out at the moment so can you confirm the

:07:13.:07:16.

railways will not be wholly nationalised until 2030, after three

:07:17.:07:20.

Labour governments, and Jeremy Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to

:07:21.:07:27.

comment on leaks, you will just have to be patient and wait to see what

:07:28.:07:33.

is in our manifesto. But you have already announced you will

:07:34.:07:37.

nationalise the railways, so tell me about it. We have discussed taking

:07:38.:07:42.

the franchises into public ownership as they expire, however the detail

:07:43.:07:46.

will be set out in the manifesto so I'm not prepared to go into detail

:07:47.:07:51.

until that policy is formally laid out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound

:07:52.:07:55.

very hopeful but let's carry on. You will also nationalise the National

:07:56.:08:02.

Grid, it has a market capitalisation of ?40 billion, why do you want to

:08:03.:08:07.

nationalise that? Again, I'm not going to speculate on leaks, you

:08:08.:08:12.

will just have to be patient. But you said you will nationalise the

:08:13.:08:18.

National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks have suggested but you will just

:08:19.:08:22.

have to wait and see what the final manifesto states on that one. So is

:08:23.:08:26.

it a waste of time me asking you how you will pay for something that

:08:27.:08:31.

costs 40 billion? Be patient, just couple of days to go, but what I

:08:32.:08:37.

would say is there is growing pressure from the public to reform

:08:38.:08:41.

the utilities sector. The Competition and Markets Authority

:08:42.:08:45.

stated in 2015 that bill payers were paying over till debt -- ?2 billion

:08:46.:08:50.

in excess of what they should be paying so there is a clear need for

:08:51.:08:56.

reform. The bills we get are from the energy companies, you are not

:08:57.:09:00.

going to nationalise them, you are going to nationalise the

:09:01.:09:03.

distribution company and I wondered what is the case for nationalising

:09:04.:09:09.

the distribution company? As I said, our full plans will be set out on

:09:10.:09:13.

Tuesday. In relation to the big six energy companies, we know in recent

:09:14.:09:17.

years they have been overcharging customers... There's no point in

:09:18.:09:24.

answering questions I am not asking. I am asking what is the case for

:09:25.:09:30.

nationalising the National Grid? There is a case for reforming the

:09:31.:09:33.

energy sector as a whole and that looks at the activities of the big

:09:34.:09:38.

six companies and it will look at other aspects too. You will have to

:09:39.:09:43.

be patient and wait until Tuesday. What about the Royal Mail? Again,

:09:44.:09:49.

you will have to wait until Tuesday. Why can't you just be honest with

:09:50.:09:54.

the British voter? We know you are going to do this and you have a duty

:09:55.:10:01.

to explain. I'm not even arguing whether it is right or wrong. The

:10:02.:10:07.

Royal Mail was sold off and we know it was sold under value and British

:10:08.:10:11.

taxpayers have a reason to feel aggrieved about that. There is a

:10:12.:10:15.

long-term strategy that would ensure the Royal Mail was classified as a

:10:16.:10:19.

key piece of infrastructure but the details of that will be set out in

:10:20.:10:25.

our manifesto because we want to ensure businesses and households

:10:26.:10:27.

ensure the best quality of service when it comes to their postal

:10:28.:10:33.

providers. You plan to borrow an extra 25 billion per year, John

:10:34.:10:37.

McDonnell has already announced this, on public investment, on top

:10:38.:10:42.

of the around 50 billion already being planned for investment. You

:10:43.:10:47.

will borrow it all so that means, if you can confirm, that many years

:10:48.:10:54.

after the crash by 2021, Labour government would still be borrowing

:10:55.:11:01.

75 billion a year. Is that correct? We have set out ?250 billion of

:11:02.:11:07.

capital investment, and ?250 billion for a national investment bank. Our

:11:08.:11:11.

financial and fiscal rules dictate we will leave the Government in a

:11:12.:11:15.

state of less debt than we found it at the start of the parliament so we

:11:16.:11:18.

won't increase the national debt at the end of our Parliamentary term.

:11:19.:11:25.

How can you do that if by 2021 you will still be borrowing around 75

:11:26.:11:29.

billion a year, which is more than we borrow at the moment? The 500

:11:30.:11:36.

billion figure is set out over a period of ten years, it's a figure

:11:37.:11:40.

that has been suggested by Peter Helm from Oxford University as a

:11:41.:11:43.

figure that is necessary to bring us in line with other industrial

:11:44.:11:48.

competitors. Similar figures have been suggested by groups such as the

:11:49.:11:56.

CBI. By the way I have not included all 500 billion, just the 250

:11:57.:12:00.

billion on public spending, not the extra money. You talk about the

:12:01.:12:05.

fiscal rules. The draft manifesto said you will leave debt as a

:12:06.:12:09.

proportion of trend GDP law at the end of each parliament, you have

:12:10.:12:16.

just said a version of that. What is trend GDP? In clear terms we will

:12:17.:12:20.

ensure the debt we acquire will be reduced by the end of the

:12:21.:12:24.

parliament. We won't leave the Government finances in a worse state

:12:25.:12:32.

than we found them. OK, but what is trend GDP? Our rule is we will

:12:33.:12:36.

ensure public sector net debt is less than we found it when we came

:12:37.:12:40.

to power in Government on June the 8th. But that is not what your draft

:12:41.:12:48.

manifesto says. I'm not going to comment on leaks, you are just going

:12:49.:12:52.

to have to wait until Tuesday to look at the fine detail and perhaps

:12:53.:12:57.

we will have another chat then. You have published your plans for

:12:58.:13:00.

corporation tax and you will increase it by a third and your

:13:01.:13:04.

predictions assumed that will get an extra 20 billion a year by the end

:13:05.:13:09.

of the parliament. But that assumes the companies don't change their

:13:10.:13:14.

behaviour, that they move money around, they leave the country or

:13:15.:13:18.

they generate smaller profits. Is that realistic? You are right to

:13:19.:13:24.

make that point and you will see when we set out our policies and

:13:25.:13:27.

costings in the manifesto that we haven't spent all of the tax take.

:13:28.:13:33.

We have allowed for different differentials and potential changes

:13:34.:13:35.

in market activity because that would be approved and direction to

:13:36.:13:40.

take. But corporation tax is allowed to be cut in France and the United

:13:41.:13:48.

States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin. Many companies based in Britain are

:13:49.:13:51.

already wondering whether they should relocate because of Brexit,

:13:52.:13:56.

if you increase this tax by a third couldn't that clinch it for a number

:13:57.:14:01.

of them? No, we will still be one of the lowest corporation tax rate in

:14:02.:14:07.

the G7. Let's look at what's important for business. Cutting

:14:08.:14:11.

corporation tax in itself doesn't improve productivity, or business

:14:12.:14:16.

investment and there's no suggestion cutting corporation tax in recent

:14:17.:14:18.

years has achieved that. Businesses need an investment in tools in

:14:19.:14:25.

things they need to thrive and prosper, they also need to reduce

:14:26.:14:29.

the burden at the lower end of the tax scale, before we get to the

:14:30.:14:34.

Prophet stage. One key example is business rates. We have made the

:14:35.:14:41.

proposal to government to in -- exclude machinery so businesses can

:14:42.:14:44.

invest and grow operations in the future but the Government refused.

:14:45.:14:51.

Corporation tax has been cut since 2010. When it was 28% it brought in

:14:52.:15:01.

?43 billion a year. Now it is down to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a

:15:02.:15:08.

year. By cutting it in the last year, it brought in 21% more, so

:15:09.:15:15.

what is the problem? It might have brought in more money, but has it

:15:16.:15:19.

increased business investment in the long term. It is not just about

:15:20.:15:24.

cutting corporation tax, but it is on the ability of businesses to

:15:25.:15:28.

thrive and prosper. Business investment in the UK is below are

:15:29.:15:34.

industrial competitors. Wages are stagnating which doesn't indicate

:15:35.:15:41.

businesses are not doing well. Let me get it right, you are arguing if

:15:42.:15:46.

we increase business tax by a third, that will increase investment? I am

:15:47.:15:52.

not saying that. You just did. Know I didn't, I said reducing business

:15:53.:16:00.

tax isn't enough, you have to invest in the things businesses need to

:16:01.:16:04.

thrive and prosper. You have also got to lessen the burden on

:16:05.:16:16.

business. You have announced a financial transaction tax. Your own

:16:17.:16:20.

labour Mayor of London said he has vowed to fight it. He said I do not

:16:21.:16:25.

want a unilateral tax on business in our city, so why are you proceeding

:16:26.:16:31.

with it? This isn't a new initiative, there is a growing

:16:32.:16:34.

global pressure to make sure we have fairness in the financial sector.

:16:35.:16:38.

Ordinary British people are paying for our banking crisis they didn't

:16:39.:16:44.

cause. Another important point, stamp duty reserve tax was brought

:16:45.:16:49.

in in the 1600 and there have been little reforms. The sector has

:16:50.:16:53.

changed and we have do provide changes to the system for that

:16:54.:16:58.

change. High-frequency trading where we have a state of affairs where a

:16:59.:17:03.

lot of shares are traded on computers within milliseconds. We

:17:04.:17:07.

need a tax system that keeps up with that. What happens if they move the

:17:08.:17:14.

computers to another country? Emily Thornaby said this morning, other

:17:15.:17:19.

countries had already introduced a financial transaction tax, what

:17:20.:17:22.

other countries have done that? There are ten countries looking at

:17:23.:17:30.

introducing a transaction tax. Which ones have done it so far? They will

:17:31.:17:37.

be later announcing a final package, going through the finer detail at

:17:38.:17:42.

the moment. But the European Commission tried to get this done in

:17:43.:17:46.

2011 and it still hasn't happened in any of these countries. But you are

:17:47.:17:51.

going to go ahead unilaterally and risk these businesses, which

:17:52.:17:56.

generate a lot of money, moving to other jurisdictions. There is not a

:17:57.:18:00.

significant risk of that happening. The stamp duty reserve tax is levied

:18:01.:18:12.

at either where the person or company is domiciled or where the

:18:13.:18:16.

instrument is issued rather than worth the transaction takes place.

:18:17.:18:21.

This tax in itself is not enough to make people leave this country in

:18:22.:18:24.

terms of financial services because there is more to keep these

:18:25.:18:29.

businesses here in terms of the investment we are making, the

:18:30.:18:33.

economy that Labour will build, in terms of productivity improvement we

:18:34.:18:37.

will see. Thank you very much, Rebecca Long-Bailey.

:18:38.:18:42.

And listening to that was the Home Office Minister, Brandon Lewis.

:18:43.:18:47.

Over the years, you have got corporation tax by 20%, it is lower

:18:48.:18:53.

than international standards, so why are so many global companies who

:18:54.:19:00.

make money out of Great Britain, still not paying 20%? It is one of

:19:01.:19:05.

the problems with the point Labour were making and Rebecca could not

:19:06.:19:08.

answer, these companies can move around the world. One of the

:19:09.:19:14.

important things is having a low tax economy but these businesses, it

:19:15.:19:18.

encourages them to come at a rate they are prepared to pay. People may

:19:19.:19:23.

say they are right, if they were paying 19, 20% incorporation tax.

:19:24.:19:29.

But they are not. Google runs a multi-million pound corporation and

:19:30.:19:38.

did not pay anywhere near 20%. There are companies that are trading

:19:39.:19:42.

internationally and that is why we have to get this work done with our

:19:43.:19:50.

partners around the world. Has there been an improvement? It is more than

:19:51.:19:54.

they were paying before. Whether it is Google or any other company,

:19:55.:19:59.

alongside them being here, apart from the tax they pay, it is the

:20:00.:20:04.

people they employ. The deal was, if you cut the business tax, the

:20:05.:20:08.

corporation tax on profits, we would get more companies coming here and

:20:09.:20:13.

more companies paying their tax. It seems it doesn't matter how low, a

:20:14.:20:17.

number of companies just pay a derisory amount and you haven't been

:20:18.:20:24.

able to change that. As you outlined, the income taken from the

:20:25.:20:26.

changing corporation tax has gone up. That is from established British

:20:27.:20:34.

companies, not from these international companies. It is

:20:35.:20:37.

because more companies are coming here and paying tax. That is a good

:20:38.:20:41.

thing. There is always more to do and that is why we want to crack

:20:42.:20:47.

down. In the last few weeks in the Finnish Parliament, Labour refused

:20:48.:20:51.

to put to another ?8.7 billion of tax take we could have got by

:20:52.:20:57.

cracking down further. You claim to have made great progress on cracking

:20:58.:21:02.

down on people and companies to pay the tax they should. But the tax gap

:21:03.:21:07.

is the difference between what HMRC takes in and what it should take in.

:21:08.:21:13.

It has barely moved in five years, so where is the progress? He have

:21:14.:21:19.

brought in 150 billion more where we have cracked down on those tax

:21:20.:21:23.

schemes. The gap is still the same as it was five years ago. It's gone

:21:24.:21:33.

from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down. The Prime Minister and the

:21:34.:21:35.

Chancellor said they want to continue work on to get more money

:21:36.:21:40.

on these companies while still having a competitive rate to

:21:41.:21:46.

encourage these companies. While big business and the wealthy continue to

:21:47.:21:51.

prosper, the Office for Budget Responsibility tell us those on

:21:52.:21:54.

average earnings in this country will be earning less in real terms

:21:55.:22:00.

by 2021 than they did in 2008. How can that be fair? I don't see it

:22:01.:22:06.

that way. I haven't seen the figures you have got. What I can say to you,

:22:07.:22:11.

Andrew, we have made sure the minimum wage has gone up, the actual

:22:12.:22:16.

income tax people pay has gone down. So in their pocket, real terms,

:22:17.:22:25.

people have more money. You are the self-styled party of work. We keep

:22:26.:22:27.

emphasising work. Under your government you can work for 13 years

:22:28.:22:31.

and still not earn any more at the end of it, and you did at the start.

:22:32.:22:38.

Where is the reward for effort in that? I have not seen those figures.

:22:39.:22:43.

There are 2.8 million more people, more jobs in economy than there was.

:22:44.:22:50.

1000 jobs every day and people are working and developing through their

:22:51.:22:53.

careers. This is what I thought was odd in what Rebecca was saying,

:22:54.:22:57.

investing in people is what the apprenticeship levy is about,

:22:58.:23:02.

companies are investing their works force to take more opportunities

:23:03.:23:07.

that there. We are talking about fairness, politicians talk about

:23:08.:23:11.

hard-working people and we know the average earnings are no higher than

:23:12.:23:15.

they were in 2008. We know the pay and bonuses of senior executives

:23:16.:23:20.

have continued to grow and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has

:23:21.:23:23.

shown 3 million of the poorest households will lose an average of

:23:24.:23:29.

?2500 a year in the next Parliament, benefits frozen, further sanctions

:23:30.:23:35.

kick in. 3 million of the poorest losing 2500. Under the Tories, one

:23:36.:23:40.

law for the rich and another for the poor. It is quite wrong. First of

:23:41.:23:45.

all, we have got to be fair to the taxpayer who is funding the welfare

:23:46.:23:50.

and benefit system. Which is why the welfare was right. Get more people

:23:51.:23:56.

in work and then it is important to get more people upscaling. As that

:23:57.:24:03.

allowance rises, people have more of the money they earn in their pocket

:24:04.:24:08.

to be able to use in the economy. People will be worse off. 2500,

:24:09.:24:14.

among the poorest already. They will have more money in their pocket as

:24:15.:24:20.

we increase the allowance before people pay tax. We have seen

:24:21.:24:26.

millions of people coming out of tax altogether. The reason I ask these

:24:27.:24:30.

questions, you and the Prime Minister go on and on about the just

:24:31.:24:35.

about managing classes. I am talking about the just about managing and

:24:36.:24:39.

below that. It is all talk, you haven't done anything for them. We

:24:40.:24:43.

have made sure they have an increasing minimum wage, it has gone

:24:44.:24:48.

up more under us than any other previous government. Their wages

:24:49.:24:54.

will be still lower in real terms. Let me come on to this plan for

:24:55.:24:59.

housing. We have announced a new plan to increase affordable housing,

:25:00.:25:04.

social housing, some council housing and social housing built by the

:25:05.:25:08.

associations. How much money is behind this? It is part of the 1.4

:25:09.:25:12.

billion announced in the Autumn Statement. How many homes will you

:25:13.:25:20.

get for 1.4 billion? That depends on the negotiations with local

:25:21.:25:23.

authorities. It is local authorities, who know the area best.

:25:24.:25:30.

I will not put a number on that. 1.4 billion, if you price the house at

:25:31.:25:34.

100,000, which is very low, particularly for the South, back at

:25:35.:25:40.

you 14,000 new homes. That is it. What we have seen before, how the

:25:41.:25:45.

local government can leveraged to build thousands more homes. That is

:25:46.:25:49.

what we want to see across the country. It is not just about the

:25:50.:25:53.

money, for a lot of local authorities it is about the

:25:54.:25:56.

expertise and knowledge on how to do this. That is why support from the

:25:57.:26:02.

housing communities minister will help. What is the timescale, how

:26:03.:26:08.

many more affordable homes will be built? I will not put a number on

:26:09.:26:13.

it. You announced it today, so you cannot tell me how many more or what

:26:14.:26:18.

the target is? It is a matter of working with the local authorities

:26:19.:26:22.

who know what their local needs are, what land they have got available.

:26:23.:26:25.

What we saw through the local elections with the Metro mayors,

:26:26.:26:30.

they want to deliver in their areas, whether it is the West of England,

:26:31.:26:33.

the north-east, Liverpool, Manchester and we want to work with

:26:34.:26:39.

them. You have said variations of this for the past seven years and I

:26:40.:26:42.

want some credibility. When you cannot tell us how much money, what

:26:43.:26:48.

the target and timescale is, and this government, under which

:26:49.:26:52.

affordable house building has fallen to a 24 year low. 1.2 million

:26:53.:26:57.

families are on waiting lists for social housing to rent. That is your

:26:58.:27:03.

record. Why should we believe a word you say? This is different to what

:27:04.:27:07.

we have been doing over the last two years. We want to develop and have a

:27:08.:27:12.

strong and stable economy that can sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This

:27:13.:27:19.

is important. In 2010, we inherited the lowest level of house building,

:27:20.:27:25.

75,000 new homes. That is about 189,000 over the last four years.

:27:26.:27:31.

That is a big step forward after the crash, getting people back into the

:27:32.:27:34.

industry. More first-time buyers onto the market. Final question, in

:27:35.:27:46.

2010, 2011, your first year in government, there were 60,000

:27:47.:27:50.

affordable homes built. May not be enough, but last day it was 30 2000.

:27:51.:27:58.

So why should we trust anything you say about this? On housing, we have

:27:59.:28:05.

delivered. We have delivered more social housing. Double what Labour

:28:06.:28:11.

did in 13 years, in just five years. This is what this policy is about,

:28:12.:28:15.

working with local authorities to deliver more homes to people in

:28:16.:28:16.

their local areas. Thank you. Now, they have a deficit

:28:17.:28:20.

of between 15 and 20% in the polls, but Jeremy Corbyn and those

:28:21.:28:23.

around him insist Labour can win. If the polls are right they've got

:28:24.:28:26.

three and half weeks to change voters' minds and persuade those

:28:27.:28:29.

fabled undecided voters We enlisted the polling organisation

:28:30.:28:31.

YouGov to help us find out how the performance of party leaders

:28:32.:28:36.

will affect behaviour Leeds, a city of three quarters

:28:37.:28:38.

of a million people, eight Parliamentary seats and home

:28:39.:28:48.

to our very own focus group. Our panel was recruited

:28:49.:28:53.

from a variety of backgrounds and the majority say they haven't

:28:54.:28:55.

decided who to vote for yet. Watching behind the glass,

:28:56.:28:59.

two experts on different sides Giles Cunningham, who headed up

:29:00.:29:01.

political press at Downing Street under David Cameron

:29:02.:29:09.

and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter, under David Cameron

:29:10.:29:15.

and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter, I think Theresa May sees herself

:29:16.:29:17.

as a pound shop Thatcher. Milliband's policies but when it

:29:18.:29:21.

came about who you want,

:29:22.:29:41.

if you wake up on maybe a 2015, We found in a couple of focus

:29:42.:29:45.

groups, people saying we'd be quite relieved,

:29:46.:29:49.

even though some of those same people have been saying we quite

:29:50.:29:51.

like the Labour policies. I think the fact that Corbyn's

:29:52.:29:54.

going so hard on his values, this is a really progressive

:29:55.:29:58.

manifesto, they live But I think that's a new challenge,

:29:59.:30:00.

that wasn't there in 2015. Is there anyone here that

:30:01.:30:04.

you don't recognise? After a little warm up,

:30:05.:30:06.

the first exercise, recognising I think it's nice to have a strong

:30:07.:30:08.

woman in politics, I do. But I've got to say,

:30:09.:30:15.

when she comes on the news, I kind of do think,

:30:16.:30:17.

here we go again. Tell me about Tim Farron, what

:30:18.:30:20.

are your impressions of Tim Farron? It isn't going to do anything,

:30:21.:30:22.

it isn't going to change anything. You'll be surprised to hear it's

:30:23.:30:27.

actually the Greens. Strong and stable leadership

:30:28.:30:36.

in the national interest. Yes, Team May, it's

:30:37.:30:48.

the British equivalent of make What do we think about this one

:30:49.:30:53.

for the many and not the few? It's not quite as bad

:30:54.:31:03.

as strong and stable, but it will probably get

:31:04.:31:05.

on our nerves after a while. We must seize that chance today

:31:06.:31:08.

and every day until June the 8th. But that's not quite my

:31:09.:31:18.

question, my question is, if you are Prime Minister,

:31:19.:31:26.

we will leave, come hell or high water, whatever is on the table

:31:27.:31:29.

at the end of the negotiations? If we win the election,

:31:30.:31:32.

we'll get a good deal with Europe. Assertive and in control

:31:33.:31:35.

and he felt comfortable But the second one, I thought

:31:36.:31:36.

he was very hesitant. I thought he was kind of,

:31:37.:31:41.

hovering around, skirting around and that's the second

:31:42.:31:51.

time I've seen a similar interview with the question

:31:52.:31:53.

being asked regarding Brexit. I don't think I'd have

:31:54.:31:55.

any confidence with him You think you are going up

:31:56.:31:57.

against some quite strong people, how are you going to stand

:31:58.:32:01.

up for us? When you are in negotiations,

:32:02.:32:03.

you need to be tough. And actually is right

:32:04.:32:08.

to be tough sometimes, particularly when you are doing

:32:09.:32:09.

something for the country. There's a reason for talking

:32:10.:32:12.

about strong and stable leadership. It's about the future

:32:13.:32:14.

of the country, it's It's just that people kind of listen

:32:15.:32:16.

to that kind of thing and think Both on The One Show

:32:17.:32:21.

and in the news. She attracts the public better

:32:22.:32:26.

than what Corbyn does. She didn't answer the question

:32:27.:32:32.

in a more articular way than Corbyn Imagine that Theresa

:32:33.:32:35.

May is an animal. So, in your minds,

:32:36.:32:41.

what animal is coming to mind I've done a Pekinese because I think

:32:42.:32:44.

she's all bark and no bite. Alpaca because she's

:32:45.:32:59.

superior looking and woolly I don't think his policies

:33:00.:33:05.

are for the modern, real world. A mouse because they are weak

:33:06.:33:21.

and they can be easily bullied, but also they can catch

:33:22.:33:24.

you by surprise if you're What do you take away

:33:25.:33:26.

from what you saw then, and what message would you send back

:33:27.:33:34.

to the Tories now? I think what came over is people see

:33:35.:33:37.

Theresa May as a strong politician, not everyone likes her,

:33:38.:33:40.

but you don't need to be liked to be elected,

:33:41.:33:43.

because ultimately it's about who do you trust with your future

:33:44.:33:45.

and your security. I think what I also take out

:33:46.:33:47.

of that focus group, was it was a group of floating

:33:48.:33:50.

voters, there was no huge appetite for the Lib Dems and there was no

:33:51.:33:53.

huge appetite for Ukip. So my messaged back to CCHQ

:33:54.:33:56.

would be stick to the plan. I thought the response

:33:57.:33:58.

to the manifesto was excellent. It's clear that people aren't

:33:59.:34:02.

particularly keen on Theresa May, There are some associations with her

:34:03.:34:04.

about strength and stability, which is exactly what the Tory party

:34:05.:34:09.

want of course, but they are not positive and nobody thinks

:34:10.:34:12.

that she has a vision So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn,

:34:13.:34:15.

what I'd say to the Labour Party is, they need to really emphasise

:34:16.:34:21.

the manifesto in Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform

:34:22.:34:23.

out of his skin and I think he has to reemphasise those

:34:24.:34:29.

characteristics which may be have come to the fore may be

:34:30.:34:32.

over the last 12 months, resilience, strength and the fact

:34:33.:34:34.

that he's come this far, why not take that final step and go

:34:35.:34:37.

into ten Downing Street? We're joined now by the American

:34:38.:34:40.

political consultant For the sake of this discussion,

:34:41.:34:47.

assume the polls at the moment are broadly right, is there any hope for

:34:48.:34:54.

Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters? Know, and this is a very serious

:34:55.:35:00.

collection with serious consequences to who wins. Nobody cares whether

:35:01.:35:04.

you can draw and what animal they represent, they want to know where

:35:05.:35:08.

they stand, and I felt that was frivolous. I come to Britain to

:35:09.:35:12.

watch elections because I learned from here. Your elections are more

:35:13.:35:17.

substantial, more serious, more policy and less about personality

:35:18.:35:21.

and that peace was only about personality. That's partly because

:35:22.:35:26.

Mrs May has decided to make this a presidential election. You can see

:35:27.:35:36.

on the posters it is all Team May. I agree with that, and in her language

:35:37.:35:43.

she says not everyone benefits from a Conservative government, I don't

:35:44.:35:48.

see how using anything Republicans have used in the past. In fact her

:35:49.:35:52.

campaign is more of a centrist Democrats but it is a smart strategy

:35:53.:35:57.

because it pushes Corbyn further to the left. Of course you said Hillary

:35:58.:36:02.

Clinton have won. On election night the polling was so bad in America,

:36:03.:36:07.

the exit polls that were done, the BBC told America she had won. No, I

:36:08.:36:13.

was anchoring the programme that night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC

:36:14.:36:21.

had the same numbers. Yes, but we did not say she had won, I can

:36:22.:36:26.

assure you of that. Because of people like you we thought she had

:36:27.:36:31.

but we didn't broadcast it. That was a smart approach. My point is other

:36:32.:36:38.

than teasing you, maybe there is hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you

:36:39.:36:43.

will have one of the lowest turnout in modern history and I think Labour

:36:44.:36:48.

will fall to one of the lowest percentages, not percentage of

:36:49.:36:52.

number of seats they have had, and this will be a matter of

:36:53.:36:56.

soul-searching for both political parties. What you do with a sizeable

:36:57.:37:01.

majority, and she has a responsibility to tell the British

:37:02.:37:04.

people exactly what happens as she moves forward. He and Labour will

:37:05.:37:11.

have to take a look at whether they still represent a significant slice

:37:12.:37:15.

of the British population. Do you see a realignment in British

:37:16.:37:20.

politics taking place? I see a crumbling of the left and yet there

:37:21.:37:24.

is still a significant percentage of the British population that once

:37:25.:37:28.

someone who is centre-left. And they like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies.

:37:29.:37:37.

I'm listening to Michael foot. I went to school here in the 1980s and

:37:38.:37:40.

I feel like I'm watching the Labour Party of 35 years ago, in a

:37:41.:37:43.

population that wants to focus on the future, not the past. Thank you.

:37:44.:37:49.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:50.:37:52.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:53.:37:54.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.

:37:55.:38:06.

Can you ever have too much of a good thing?

:38:07.:38:08.

Two general elections and a referendum in just two years?

:38:09.:38:11.

It's no laughing matter for comedian Eddie Izzard,

:38:12.:38:16.

taking to the streets against the "stay-at-home factor"

:38:17.:38:18.

in some of the lowest-voting areas of Britain.

:38:19.:38:23.

Hotfoot from the campaign trail this Sunday morning:

:38:24.:38:27.

Shabana Mahmood for Labour and James Morris for the Conservatives,

:38:28.:38:32.

both erstwhile MPs who are now hoping to live to fight another day.

:38:33.:38:39.

And we'll also be hearing why the Trade Unionist

:38:40.:38:41.

and Socialist Coalition, otherwise known as TUSC,

:38:42.:38:45.

will not be standing in next month's election.

:38:46.:38:50.

But we begin out on the stump with Jeremy Corbyn.

:38:51.:38:53.

He came to Leamington Spa and Worcester.

:38:54.:38:56.

Both were held by Labour during the Blair-Brown years,

:38:57.:38:59.

but won back by the Conservatives in 2010.

:39:00.:39:02.

They are exactly the sort of "Middle England" constituencies

:39:03.:39:05.

Labour must re-capture if they're to make any headway on June the 8th.

:39:06.:39:10.

In Worcester, Mr Corbyn was joined by supporters,

:39:11.:39:12.

including one of Nuneaton's famous sons, the film director Ken Loach.

:39:13.:39:17.

Earlier the Labour leader had announced a new policy to abolish

:39:18.:39:20.

hospital car parking charges for patients and staff.

:39:21.:39:25.

If you visit a hospital because you want to look

:39:26.:39:27.

after an elderly relative, or give support to a friend,

:39:28.:39:30.

or go there in an emergency, I don't think you should be charged

:39:31.:39:33.

I've just been talking also to a group of nurses,

:39:34.:39:37.

some of whom are community nurses and therefore have to go

:39:38.:39:40.

to different hospitals at different times.

:39:41.:39:43.

Others come in to do night shifts at difficult times when there is no

:39:44.:39:46.

They need to be able to park their car.

:39:47.:39:50.

Unfortunately, in many cases, they have to pay for the privilege

:39:51.:39:53.

of parking at a place of work where they have to be,

:39:54.:39:55.

and they have had frozen pay for the past seven years.

:39:56.:40:02.

Car parking charges at up to ?10 per day in some local hospitals. James

:40:03.:40:11.

Morrison is Jeremy Hunt's parliamentary Private Secretary, you

:40:12.:40:14.

know how this infuriates many people in our part of the country,

:40:15.:40:18.

especially those sections of the committee most likely to vote. Mr

:40:19.:40:24.

Corbyn could be onto something. We introduced giving discretion to

:40:25.:40:27.

trust to make decisions about local things, but the broadest point is

:40:28.:40:34.

whether the NHS is we have put ?10 billion further into the NHS to

:40:35.:40:37.

kick-start a five-year review. We have more nurses and more doctors in

:40:38.:40:42.

the NHS, Jeremy Corbyn can pick a particular policies from the league,

:40:43.:40:47.

chaotic manifesto, but they don't add up to anything, other than

:40:48.:40:51.

taking us back to the 1970s. Use a late and chaotic, but looking

:40:52.:40:56.

at individual proposals in there, popular appeal. Public ownership of

:40:57.:41:00.

the railways and Royal Mail. ?8 billion extra for social care.

:41:01.:41:05.

I think it is a shambles and chaotic in that it takes us back to the

:41:06.:41:09.

1970s. The proposals I have seen in this manifesto basically put at risk

:41:10.:41:13.

all of the things that we have achieved over the last seven years,

:41:14.:41:19.

high levels of employment, getting the deficit under control... This

:41:20.:41:22.

would take us back to the 1970s and is too much of a risk.

:41:23.:41:27.

I think the picture he is painting of the National Health Service is

:41:28.:41:30.

not what your viewers will have experienced if they have been

:41:31.:41:34.

engaging with the NHS. We know the NHS is under unprecedented crisis,

:41:35.:41:37.

emergency. I defy James to sit here emergency. I defy James to sit here

:41:38.:41:42.

and say it is not. The idea this is a Government that has been investing

:41:43.:41:46.

heavily in the one public service that everybody knows... Let me

:41:47.:41:51.

finish, James. It is under great stress, and actually on car parking

:41:52.:41:55.

charges the idea that people when they are taking a sick relative have

:41:56.:41:58.

to pay, I think is something people think is immoral.

:41:59.:42:05.

Chief executive of the NHS said he needed ?10 billion to kick-start the

:42:06.:42:07.

five-year plan for the NHS and that is what we have invested. There are

:42:08.:42:11.

more doctors and more nurses and the NHS than ever before, and more than

:42:12.:42:14.

there were any previous Labour Government.

:42:15.:42:17.

But there is a crisis in the NHS. Appointing former shadow Treasury

:42:18.:42:25.

minister yourself, -- pointing to... Does Labour need a money tree to

:42:26.:42:29.

invest that isn't costing... What about the risk of taking so much in

:42:30.:42:34.

taxation out of the British economy? As a former Treasury specialist that

:42:35.:42:37.

must be a concern. John McDonnell said he will release

:42:38.:42:41.

all the costings of every puzzle in the manifesto when it is officially

:42:42.:42:45.

launched rather than the leaked version. -- of every point in the

:42:46.:42:49.

manifesto. In the end what I know for my time in the shadow Treasury

:42:50.:42:53.

team is theirs is about choices. Making an explicit choice that we

:42:54.:42:56.

will borrow for capital investment I think is a sensible economic choice

:42:57.:43:00.

to be making, and different choices on corporation tax.

:43:01.:43:06.

John McDonnell says he is a Marxist. If the British people do not trust

:43:07.:43:10.

them to run the British economy... He allegedly said so but I think

:43:11.:43:14.

that is an issue for another... Energy for another day but people

:43:15.:43:17.

will look at the manifesto and the job policies and it was an manifesto

:43:18.:43:18.

people will like. Two general elections

:43:19.:43:20.

and a referendum, in just two years. Plus those elections

:43:21.:43:22.

for the Metro Mayor If voting is your thing,

:43:23.:43:24.

you've never had it so good. But is it just as likely others may

:43:25.:43:29.

be feeling "electioned-out"? Four of the UK's lowest turnouts

:43:30.:43:32.

at the last general election were in our part of the country,

:43:33.:43:36.

with Stoke Central rock bottom Rob Mayor has been canvassing

:43:37.:43:39.

opinions this time round. Out on the streets of Birmingham -

:43:40.:43:46.

this seat had one of the lowest In 2015 almost half the people

:43:47.:43:49.

in Erdington didn't bother to vote - perhaps a registration

:43:50.:43:59.

drive with a sprinkling If you do nothing, it definitely

:44:00.:44:01.

doesn't make a difference. If you do nothing at all,

:44:02.:44:07.

if you do not register, and if you do not vote,

:44:08.:44:09.

that definitely will not It doesn't always make

:44:10.:44:12.

a massive difference, but, definitely, not voting

:44:13.:44:16.

makes zero difference. Round the corner on

:44:17.:44:25.

the bowling green, over-65s were twice as likely

:44:26.:44:27.

as under-25s to vote last time. They can't be bothered

:44:28.:44:34.

to make up their minds, The reason I don't vote much now

:44:35.:44:41.

is cos I've got nobody to take me, and I'm not going to walk

:44:42.:44:48.

all that way. People, I think, used to vote

:44:49.:44:53.

quite regularly at one time, but now I think people have just

:44:54.:44:56.

lost interest in politics. Of the ten seats with the lowest

:44:57.:44:59.

turnout in 2015, In Walsall North,

:45:00.:45:01.

turnout was just 55%. In Birmingham Erdington Birmimgham

:45:02.:45:10.

Ladywood, it was just 53%, whilst in Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:45:11.:45:15.

fewer than half voted. And that dropped by a further 12%

:45:16.:45:20.

at the by-election in February. It's not the West Midlanders

:45:21.:45:24.

who are to blame - it's the nature of

:45:25.:45:28.

the constituencies. And we know that throughout

:45:29.:45:29.

the West Midlands there are quite a number of constituencies

:45:30.:45:32.

which are Labour strongholds, so much so that, as a Labour voter,

:45:33.:45:34.

you could be forgiven for thinking, we know Labour's going

:45:35.:45:39.

to hold onto this seat. The solution is to have politicians

:45:40.:45:41.

and a political class that appeal to people,

:45:42.:45:43.

mobilise them and motivate them, and that's what we have been missing

:45:44.:45:47.

for a generation in politics. Some of the doctor's students will

:45:48.:45:50.

vote for the first time in June, but say more could be done

:45:51.:45:53.

to encourage young people. It's very difficult for young people

:45:54.:45:57.

to see the difference between the main political parties,

:45:58.:46:00.

so it's difficult to choose. I have heard people saying,

:46:01.:46:07.

not just young people, that they feel as though their vote

:46:08.:46:09.

won't have any significance. I couldn't register in time to vote

:46:10.:46:13.

for the mayoral election, and I just remember how frustrated

:46:14.:46:16.

I was that there wasn't, just, you know, an app

:46:17.:46:18.

that I could download, put in my age, put in my

:46:19.:46:20.

postcode, put in my name So perhaps the missing

:46:21.:46:24.

voters will be tempted in by the chance of a change -

:46:25.:46:27.

there's a huge number of people And we have just heard the American

:46:28.:46:45.

polling expert telling Andrew Neal he expects this general election to

:46:46.:46:49.

have an ultra low turnout. We have been looking at the numbers in

:46:50.:46:54.

constituencies which our politicians here have represented and hope to do

:46:55.:46:58.

again. We looked at Ladywood in Birmingham, that is in this rogues

:46:59.:47:04.

gallery of ultralow turnouts, 40% in 2010. Just over half, 52% last time.

:47:05.:47:08.

Not exactly a big endorsement. I think we have had low turnout in

:47:09.:47:13.

Ladywood for a while. It is a real problem and there is a range of

:47:14.:47:18.

factors. We have a much younger population than most constituencies

:47:19.:47:21.

and a more transient population. My own view is we have decreasing

:47:22.:47:25.

turnout across the country for all of the different types of elections

:47:26.:47:28.

that we have. I know just what we were all thinking it was a triumph

:47:29.:47:33.

of turnout at the West Midlands May oral election nearly had a 30%

:47:34.:47:36.

turnout, that I was a triumph. It's not really a triumph... 70% did not

:47:37.:47:42.

vote which is a tragedy in my view. I am more open-minded these days

:47:43.:47:47.

about the idea of compulsory voting. It is part of a fundamental contract

:47:48.:47:54.

with your state that you do vote. Halesowen and Rowley Regis, James,

:47:55.:48:01.

2010 69%, 2015 59%. I think the point is that over the

:48:02.:48:06.

last few years, we have detected more engagement, actually.

:48:07.:48:07.

Particularly after the EU referendum. I think that after the

:48:08.:48:13.

EU referendum people are more engaged, knowing that there are some

:48:14.:48:17.

very important decisions that we are making about the future of the

:48:18.:48:20.

country. And when you have an election which is about a very clear

:48:21.:48:24.

choice about the future of the country in this world, or we have

:48:25.:48:27.

decided to leave the EU referendum, my experience on the doorstep in my

:48:28.:48:30.

constituency is that people are very engaged with the decision they made

:48:31.:48:36.

-- need to make in this referendum. One thing is that the referendum is

:48:37.:48:40.

a baseline, a referendum is a binary choice, one of the other, yes or no,

:48:41.:48:44.

that is not held general elections are local or mayoral elections are,

:48:45.:48:48.

because they are about broader policy, the future direction of this

:48:49.:48:51.

country... And the turnout... Some would argue there is a binary

:48:52.:48:56.

choice in this election between a strong leadership Theresa May...

:48:57.:49:01.

Get your lines out, James, but it is much more fundamental...

:49:02.:49:04.

That is the choice presented to the visual action and they are engaged

:49:05.:49:07.

in that choice between the qualities of the people who will lead this

:49:08.:49:11.

country for a very important negotiations went... With our

:49:12.:49:18.

leaving from the EU... Will expect a row to be crushingly

:49:19.:49:21.

low. Lower still if according to your

:49:22.:49:25.

draft manifesto you want 16-year-olds to get the vote, which

:49:26.:49:28.

will make the turnout even lower. It is looking at the franchise and

:49:29.:49:32.

who is able to vote in trying to get a habit of voting into citizens

:49:33.:49:36.

from, you know, the endless possible age, so it becomes a norm you do.

:49:37.:49:40.

But you don't have that habit when you're 18 or 21 or whatever, then it

:49:41.:49:45.

is harder to form that habit. It is not like there is a knowledge and

:49:46.:49:48.

every week. It feels like that, but in the normal run of things they are

:49:49.:49:51.

every few years, and making that habit is quite difficult. That is

:49:52.:49:54.

why I personally observing to think as a society we need to have a

:49:55.:49:58.

rethink about the way we do voting. You agree? That has not been seen to

:49:59.:50:04.

be the British way but maybe we have got to the stage...

:50:05.:50:09.

I don't agree about compulsion. In a democracy people should have the

:50:10.:50:11.

freedom to decide that they don't want to vote for any of the above.

:50:12.:50:15.

But it is the job of politicians and the job of our political process to

:50:16.:50:18.

engage people on the issues facing the country.

:50:19.:50:20.

No pacts... "No pacts. No deals.

:50:21.:50:24.

No trade-offs." That's been the stock

:50:25.:50:25.

response from most political parties over the years,

:50:26.:50:27.

to suggestions that they might stand aside for the sake of other,

:50:28.:50:30.

like-minded candidates. This time though, one party

:50:31.:50:32.

which has fought large numbers of seats in previous elections,

:50:33.:50:34.

will not be standing at all. The Trade Unionist and Socialist

:50:35.:50:37.

Coalition is stepping aside to give Jeremy Corbyn the best possible

:50:38.:50:39.

chance of becoming Prime Minister. The Trade Unionist and Socialist

:50:40.:50:44.

Coalition was launched ahead This is the biggest party

:50:45.:50:46.

you have never heard of. Actually, we are the sixth-biggest

:50:47.:50:55.

party in the country, At the last general election,

:50:56.:50:57.

the party fought 135 constituencies across the country

:50:58.:51:01.

on an anti-cuts agenda. We have had enough of

:51:02.:51:05.

the establishment parties. They serve the interests

:51:06.:51:07.

of the 1%, not the 99%. The whole political

:51:08.:51:09.

system is bankrupt. They've also fielded

:51:10.:51:13.

hundreds of candidates in local elections too,

:51:14.:51:14.

but they have just TUSC chairman Dave Nellist

:51:15.:51:16.

was expelled from the Labour Party in 1991 because of his connections

:51:17.:51:21.

to the Militant Tendency. The former Coventry MP was a close

:51:22.:51:23.

ally of Labour left-wingers In November, Mr Nellist was among

:51:24.:51:28.

a group of 70 left-wingers who applied to rejoin

:51:29.:51:35.

the Labour Party to support Mr Corbyn, but Labour rules prevent

:51:36.:51:38.

members of other parties And Dave Nellist,

:51:39.:51:40.

chair of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition,

:51:41.:51:47.

is here with us now. Are you giving up? Have you had

:51:48.:51:57.

enough? Not at all. This is not a blank

:51:58.:52:01.

cheque. It is a one-off deal. We started seven years ago, by the

:52:02.:52:07.

transport union the RMT, with an overlapping agenda between the main

:52:08.:52:11.

parties... Earlier interviewees said you cannot tell the difference but

:52:12.:52:14.

now I think you can tell the difference. The leaked manifesto

:52:15.:52:17.

from Jeremy Corbyn, public ownership, raising wages, more money

:52:18.:52:21.

for the NHS, could make a fundamental difference on the 8th of

:52:22.:52:24.

June we want that to have the chance.

:52:25.:52:25.

When you and your colleagues tried to reapply to the Labour Party they

:52:26.:52:30.

did not want you back, so why do them favours now? Element there are

:52:31.:52:35.

two Labour parties. Jeremy's socialist manifesto, and a machinery

:52:36.:52:44.

of the Labour Party preventing thousands of people... I hope to

:52:45.:52:48.

reapply on June the 9th to Bremen Mr Corbyn.

:52:49.:52:51.

to others and TUSC. With the help to to others and TUSC. With the help to

:52:52.:52:54.

reapply? Is that what it is about? I think if

:52:55.:52:59.

Jeremy wins on June the 8th could be quite a large are people who want to

:53:00.:53:02.

be part of a major change in Britain. Repeat those busy policies

:53:03.:53:06.

you discussed already in health service and schools and things, they

:53:07.:53:09.

are game changers, particularly for young people and they should be

:53:10.:53:13.

given the chance. Is really an admission of fever that

:53:14.:53:16.

over the years you have not broken through? It is still as you said all

:53:17.:53:20.

those years ago the party you have probably never heard of.

:53:21.:53:24.

We have had modest results but I think these elections will be closer

:53:25.:53:27.

than your or Andrew's guest was talking about, low turnout. There

:53:28.:53:32.

are some seats for example, without naming them, part of the country

:53:33.:53:37.

where I have stood, were depending how the Ukip vote collapses, looks

:53:38.:53:41.

like that is going to happen, but between Labour and Tories it will be

:53:42.:53:44.

close. I got nearly 2000 votes in the seat I stood in two years ago

:53:45.:53:47.

and I could be the difference between sending a Tory MP to

:53:48.:53:52.

Westminster or a Labour MP. And the point today, I spent some

:53:53.:53:57.

time this past week in North Birmingham, and the anti-austerity

:53:58.:54:00.

message, I can assure you, is something very much talked about on

:54:01.:54:05.

the streets there. Not just Brexit.

:54:06.:54:07.

This election is about a series of issues, the future of the country,

:54:08.:54:11.

and David his allies want to take the country back to the 1970s.

:54:12.:54:15.

Yes! By putting at risk all the things we

:54:16.:54:19.

have achieved over the last five or seven years. More people in work

:54:20.:54:23.

than ever before in this country. Enabling us to invest in public

:54:24.:54:27.

services like the NHS, like education, because we have a strong

:54:28.:54:31.

economy... That is what this election is about.

:54:32.:54:35.

Sorry, in the 1970s, a worker in a unionised factory in the Midlands

:54:36.:54:39.

could get a house on two or three times their wages. Young people

:54:40.:54:42.

today have to get eight or ten times an average wage. I would go back to

:54:43.:54:50.

the quality of the 1970s... Jeromy Corbyn. Rather than the 1870s with

:54:51.:54:53.

the Tories. There are colleagues of yours in the

:54:54.:54:56.

West Midlands another part of the country who take a view that an

:54:57.:55:04.

and Socialist Coalition is like a and Socialist Coalition is like a

:55:05.:55:06.

hole in their head as endorsement. I will not give an argument about

:55:07.:55:12.

the 1970s as I was born in 1980. But my colleagues are focused just on

:55:13.:55:15.

their campaigns and making sure that they are standing on our manifesto,

:55:16.:55:20.

and their local track record as MPs fighting for their constituencies,

:55:21.:55:23.

against the cuts we have seen under this Government, and I am surprised

:55:24.:55:26.

that James mentions funding in schools when he well knows that

:55:27.:55:29.

actually the funding formula proposed by the Conservative Party

:55:30.:55:35.

is going to mean large scale cuts, 50 out of 55 schools in central

:55:36.:55:40.

Bremen losing funding. With... Reign James said this is a

:55:41.:55:46.

one-off stand down against the Labour Party and I think that will

:55:47.:55:52.

count against Vanity reapplies. Isn't isn't the key one in this part

:55:53.:55:57.

of the country a decision by Ukip not to field candidates in key areas

:55:58.:56:00.

like North Birmingham where I was? That would have a really big impact

:56:01.:56:04.

on the chances of the Labour Party in some key areas.

:56:05.:56:07.

I think the decision of Ukip is to do with the lapsing of falling apart

:56:08.:56:11.

and losing financial backing. Seeing the Tory party take up many of its

:56:12.:56:16.

ideas. -- Ukip has collapsed. I think Jeromy appeals to working

:56:17.:56:23.

class voters, working class socialist people who wanted Brexit,

:56:24.:56:27.

and I think he actually made a mistake in the last year or so, with

:56:28.:56:32.

the referendum. He and I worked with Tony Benn in 1975... They always

:56:33.:56:39.

believe we wanted to get out of the Thatcherism on a continental scale

:56:40.:56:44.

and give working class factory is the priority. If they did that you

:56:45.:56:52.

could soak up the Ukip voters. In my constituency, Jeremy Corbyn's

:56:53.:56:54.

views about not believing in national defence and this country is

:56:55.:57:00.

going down like a lead balloon. On the TV programme 's earlier

:57:01.:57:01.

today... I understand that that is the paper

:57:02.:57:07.

trail the Conservative Party want to make but the Labour Party is

:57:08.:57:11.

committed... It is not a betrayal but the truth.

:57:12.:57:16.

We are in favour of Trident renewal. Is Jeremy Corbyn in favour of

:57:17.:57:21.

Trident renewal? I don't think he is.

:57:22.:57:23.

The Labour Party, look at our record on what will be in the manifesto on

:57:24.:57:27.

other important issues. other important issues.

:57:28.:57:31.

into office? into office?

:57:32.:57:34.

This'll be a close election. Started off with 23% Tory lead three weeks

:57:35.:57:38.

ago, a local elections translate that an 11% lead, and the manifesto

:57:39.:57:42.

everything divide for an look everything divide for an look

:57:43.:57:46.

forward to winning the election -- I look forward to Jeremy Corbyn

:57:47.:57:48.

winning the election on the 8th of June.

:57:49.:57:49.

Let's have an update on more of the developments

:57:50.:57:51.

Our round-up in 60 Seconds is brought to us today

:57:52.:57:55.

West Midlands Mayor Andy Street has chosen Conservative

:57:56.:57:59.

colleague Bob Sleigh, the leader of Solihull Council,

:58:00.:58:01.

Jeremy Corbyn received an unusual offer on his way to a stump

:58:02.:58:07.

What is it about politicians and bananas?

:58:08.:58:16.

Labour's Deputy Leader Tom Watson was forced to deny leaking

:58:17.:58:18.

the Labour manifesto when he was confronted

:58:19.:58:20.

In this aptly named street in Dudley North, voters seem

:58:21.:58:28.

to have things other than the General Election

:58:29.:58:30.

And former Prime Minister Gordon Brown was in Coventry to deliver

:58:31.:58:44.

a message to protect the region's car industry in the

:58:45.:58:46.

We cannot allow the car industry to have tariffs and taxes imposed

:58:47.:58:52.

on it simply because some people refuse to work with

:58:53.:58:55.

Yes, and much of what Gordon Brown was saying their chimes with the

:58:56.:59:13.

boss of jaguar Land Rover who is very concerned about keeping access

:59:14.:59:18.

to his company's biggest markets, the biggest market in Europe for

:59:19.:59:25.

them. Concerned as you are about the deal Theresa May is heading towards.

:59:26.:59:29.

The deal which Theresa May will get with the EU will be a process of two

:59:30.:59:34.

years of hard negotiations. The negotiations are compact and

:59:35.:59:37.

difficult and she will be wanting to protect the interests of the British

:59:38.:59:42.

car industry in order to get full access or as much access to the

:59:43.:59:45.

single market as possible. But the question is, there will be concise

:59:46.:59:49.

negotiations but we need a strong leadership in order to deliver the

:59:50.:59:52.

negotiations and get the best deal for the car industry.

:59:53.:59:56.

And you have the signal a willingness to play hardball

:59:57.:59:59.

whenever you go into the start of a negotiation.

:00:00.:00:03.

Yes, that may be true, but actually the problem for the Brexiteers is

:00:04.:00:05.

they have not yet considered the fact it will not just be the car

:00:06.:00:07.

sector that wants to try to protect its current status

:00:08.:00:24.

quo, which is money jobs depended on, it is another range of sectors

:00:25.:00:27.

as well, and the problem with Theresa May saying simply, Brexit

:00:28.:00:29.

means Brexit, Izzy is not engaging with the issues and on down the

:00:30.:00:32.

track the food industry and the Bar industry will want proper answers

:00:33.:00:34.

otherwise we will start to lose support in constituencies up and

:00:35.:00:36.

down the country. The clock has beaten us.

:00:37.:00:37.

My thanks to Shabana Mahmood and James Morris.

:00:38.:00:39.

Finally from me, after all this talk of low turnouts,

:00:40.:00:41.

You may not want to be, but if you do, you have one

:00:42.:00:45.

week left to register, or to apply for a postal

:00:46.:00:48.

The deadline is a week tomorrow, and you can do it either online

:00:49.:00:52.

or by post to your local electoral registration office.

:00:53.:00:54.

Before this programme turns into a public information announcement,

:00:55.:00:56.

emotive subject and we have run out of time.

:00:57.:01:05.

On Thursday nominations closed in the 650 parliamentary

:01:06.:01:10.

seats across the country, so now we know exactly who's

:01:11.:01:12.

We've been analysing the parties' candidates to find out

:01:13.:01:19.

what they might tell us about the make-up of the House

:01:20.:01:21.

Well, we know Theresa May is committed to delivering Brexit and

:01:22.:01:26.

analysis of Conservative candidates has shown that

:01:27.:01:31.

in their top 100 target seats, 37 candidates supported leave

:01:32.:01:34.

during last year's referendum campaign

:01:35.:01:42.

and 20 supported remain; 43 have not made public

:01:43.:01:44.

In the last parliament, the vast majority of Labour MPs

:01:45.:01:50.

were hostile to Jeremy Corbyn so how supportive are Labour

:01:51.:01:52.

Well, of 50 of Labour's top 100 target seats

:01:53.:01:59.

17 candidates have expressed support for Mr Corbyn.

:02:00.:02:01.

20 candidates supported Owen Smith in last year's leadership contest

:02:02.:02:06.

or have expressed anti-Corbyn sentiment, and

:02:07.:02:10.

If they won those, the Labour benches would be

:02:11.:02:16.

marginally more sympathetic to Mr Corbyn than they are now.

:02:17.:02:18.

What do the figures tell us about where the other

:02:19.:02:21.

Well, the Lib Dems have decided not to stand against the Greens

:02:22.:02:24.

in Brighton Pavilion, and are fielding 629

:02:25.:02:26.

candidates this year - that's two fewer than 2015.

:02:27.:02:29.

The number of Ukip candidates has fallen dramatically.

:02:30.:02:33.

They are standing in 247 fewer constituencies than 2015,

:02:34.:02:39.

throwing their support behind solidly pro-Brexit Tories

:02:40.:02:41.

in some areas such as Lewes and Norfolk North.

:02:42.:02:45.

The Greens are fielding 103 fewer candidates

:02:46.:02:49.

than at the last election, standing down to help

:02:50.:03:00.

other progressive candidates in some places.

:03:01.:03:06.

The most liking statistic is the demise in Ukip candidates, is this

:03:07.:03:19.

their swansong? And I think so. It is remarkable how few Ukip

:03:20.:03:25.

candidates are standing. It is hard to see they will suddenly revive in

:03:26.:03:29.

the next couple of years. I think this is probably the end. Frank

:03:30.:03:39.

Luntz mentioned the fragmentation of the left was a feature of this

:03:40.:03:43.

election, but also there is the consolidation of the right, and if

:03:44.:03:46.

you take the things together that could explain why the polls are

:03:47.:03:51.

where they are. Absolutely, that's precisely what happened at the start

:03:52.:03:56.

of the 1980s, the right was incredibly united and that's when we

:03:57.:04:01.

started talking about majorities of over 100 or so. No matter what the

:04:02.:04:08.

size of Theresa May's majority, it will be the total collapse of Ukip,

:04:09.:04:12.

but not just because we are now leaving the EU and that was their

:04:13.:04:18.

only reason for being, but a whole lot of people voted for Ukip because

:04:19.:04:22.

they felt the Tories were no longer listening. Theresa May has given the

:04:23.:04:30.

impression that she is listening, and that is the biggest possible

:04:31.:04:33.

thing that could happen to the Tory vote. Fragmentation of the left,

:04:34.:04:41.

consolidation of the right? It's one of the lessons that is never learnt,

:04:42.:04:48.

it happened in the 1980s, it doesn't take much for the whole thing to

:04:49.:04:53.

fracture so now you have on the centre-left the SNP, the Labour

:04:54.:04:58.

Party, the Greens, the Liberal Democrats all competing for the same

:04:59.:05:03.

votes and when you have, fleetingly perhaps, large numbers coalescing on

:05:04.:05:07.

the right in one party, there is only going to be one outcome. It

:05:08.:05:12.

happens regularly. It doesn't mean the Tories haven't got their own

:05:13.:05:18.

fragility. Two years ago, David Cameron and George Osborne the

:05:19.:05:22.

dominant figures, neither are in Parliament now which is a symptom of

:05:23.:05:26.

the fragility this election is disguising. Mrs May's position in a

:05:27.:05:32.

way reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in the 1980s, I won't be outflanked on

:05:33.:05:37.

the right, Nicolas Sarkozy in France, I won't be outflanked on the

:05:38.:05:41.

right, so the National Front didn't get through either timed he ran to

:05:42.:05:45.

the second round on like this time, and now Mrs May on Brexit won't be

:05:46.:05:51.

outflanked Iver and as a result has seen off right flank. And also she

:05:52.:05:56.

is looking to the left as well with some of the state interventions.

:05:57.:05:58.

What was interesting about the analysis you showed a few minutes

:05:59.:06:02.

ago was the number of Tory candidates who have apparently not

:06:03.:06:07.

declared which way they voted in the referendum, and you would have

:06:08.:06:11.

thought if this election was all about Brexit, as some would claim,

:06:12.:06:16.

that would become an unsustainable position, and actually more it's

:06:17.:06:20.

about leadership. But the point that I'm now hearing from a number of

:06:21.:06:25.

Labour candidates that they are seeing Tory leaflets that don't even

:06:26.:06:31.

have the Tory candidate's name on them, it is just about Theresa May.

:06:32.:06:36.

I am glad they are keeping to the law because by law they have to put

:06:37.:06:41.

it on. It has been harder for some of the smaller parties too because

:06:42.:06:47.

of the speed of the election being called. We have the manifesto is

:06:48.:06:53.

coming out this week. I think Labour Forshaw on Tuesday, we are not yet

:06:54.:06:57.

sure when the Tories will bring bears out. I suggest one thing, it

:06:58.:07:01.

will at least for people like me bring an end to the question you

:07:02.:07:09.

will have to wait for the manifesto. And Rebecca Long baby will never

:07:10.:07:13.

have that excuse again, isn't it wonderful! She is not the only one.

:07:14.:07:22.

When you are trying to take the north and Midlands from Labour, I

:07:23.:07:28.

would go to one or the other. For me, I can barely hold back my

:07:29.:07:33.

excitement over the Tory manifesto. This will be, I think, the most

:07:34.:07:36.

important day for the British government for the next five years.

:07:37.:07:45.

That wasn't irony there? You actually meant that? I'm not even

:07:46.:07:50.

being cynical at all on Sunday Politics! This is a huge day and

:07:51.:07:57.

it's because I think we will see... I don't think Mrs May will play it

:07:58.:08:02.

safe and I don't think we will get the broadbrush stuff that she might

:08:03.:08:07.

be advised to do. I think she will lay out precisely what you want to

:08:08.:08:12.

do over the next five years and take some big risks. Then finally after a

:08:13.:08:16.

year of this guessing and theorising, we will finally work out

:08:17.:08:20.

what Mrs May is all about. She will say she doesn't want the next

:08:21.:08:23.

parliament to be all about Brexit, though she knows that's the next

:08:24.:08:27.

important thing she has to deliver in some way, so she gets a mandate

:08:28.:08:31.

for that if the polls are right but she

:08:32.:08:42.

does have very different ideas from Mr Cameron about how to run a

:08:43.:08:46.

country. She will I assume one to mandate for what these different

:08:47.:08:49.

ideas are. Otherwise there is no point in holding an early election.

:08:50.:08:51.

You will get a majority, but if you get a mandate to carry on

:08:52.:08:55.

implementing the Cameron and Osborne manifesto it would be utterly

:08:56.:08:58.

pointless. I agree, it is the pivotal event of the election and it

:08:59.:09:01.

will be interesting to see the degree to which she expands on the

:09:02.:09:05.

line which interests me about its time to look at the good that

:09:06.:09:10.

government can do. Because in a way this moves the debate on in UK

:09:11.:09:17.

politics from, from 97 the Blair Brown governments were insecure

:09:18.:09:20.

about arguing about the role of government. Cameron Osborne

:09:21.:09:25.

government similarly so, so here you have a Labour Party talking about

:09:26.:09:29.

the role of government and the state, and Tory leader apparently

:09:30.:09:33.

doing so was well. I think that will be really interesting to see whether

:09:34.:09:38.

it is fleshed out in any significant way. And it is not a natural Tory

:09:39.:09:43.

message. Harold Macmillan talked about the role of the state, Ted

:09:44.:09:51.

Heath Mark two was pretty big on the state, the industrial policy and so

:09:52.:09:55.

on, and even if it is not thought to be that Tory, does she get away with

:09:56.:09:59.

it because she deliver such a big victory if that's what she does

:10:00.:10:04.

deliver? Just inject a little note of scepticism, I wonder how much of

:10:05.:10:10.

this is authentically Theresa May. I was interested to and talk to

:10:11.:10:18.

someone who used to sit in cabinet meetings during which Theresa May

:10:19.:10:21.

never expressed an opinion on anything outside the Home Office

:10:22.:10:24.

briefs. Other ministers were roving all over their colleagues' briefs.

:10:25.:10:33.

So where are the ideas coming from? I think we can point to Nick

:10:34.:10:40.

Timothy. One of her closest advisers in Downing Street. It will be

:10:41.:10:45.

interesting to see how that evolves. On Thursday I think we will all be

:10:46.:10:52.

talking about something called Urdington Toryism. Urdington is the

:10:53.:11:01.

suburb of Birmingham where Nick Timothy comes from, who is very much

:11:02.:11:06.

Theresa May's policy brain and leading inspiration. Urdington

:11:07.:11:11.

Toryism is about connecting the party with traditional working class

:11:12.:11:16.

voters, and their belief to do that is not just taking away government

:11:17.:11:20.

out of their lives but showing them that government can actually help

:11:21.:11:25.

their lives. It can be a force for good to rebuild the trust. A lot of

:11:26.:11:36.

what Mrs May talks about is all... It is talk and then a lot of it

:11:37.:11:40.

suddenly goes by the wayside. What happened to worker directors on the

:11:41.:11:49.

boards. It is designed to appeal to that constituency and then nothing

:11:50.:11:53.

happens. She had an excuse before in the sense that it wasn't in the 2015

:11:54.:11:58.

manifesto and she had a small majority so therefore she arguably

:11:59.:12:02.

had to water down some of the stuff for example in her Tory conference

:12:03.:12:07.

speech, which had a lot of this active government material in it. If

:12:08.:12:11.

she puts it in the manifesto, it is a sign she plans to do it and will

:12:12.:12:16.

have no excuse if she then gets nervous afterwards because it will

:12:17.:12:20.

be in there. If it wasn't for Brexit, this great overwhelming

:12:21.:12:25.

issue, I think this election will be seen as quite a significant

:12:26.:12:28.

development in terms of an argument around the role of government,

:12:29.:12:33.

much-needed. But Brexit unfortunately overshadows it all. As

:12:34.:12:38.

much as we like our arguments over the role of government we will hear

:12:39.:12:42.

strong and stable, stable and strong ad nauseam, aren't we? Absolutely,

:12:43.:12:50.

and we heard the same old lines from the Labour Party as well so they are

:12:51.:12:56.

all at it. It will be a fascinating week, stop talking it down! Thanks

:12:57.:12:59.

to our panel. The Daily Politics will be

:13:00.:13:02.

back on BBC Two at noon I'll be back here at the same time

:13:03.:13:04.

on BBC One next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,

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it's the Sunday Politics. When it came to my TV habits,

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I'd watch anything... But now I can sign in online

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and get more of what I love. I'm kept up to date

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with the shows I love and I get suggestions

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Andrew Neil and Patrick Burns are joined by shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey and Home Office minister Brandon Lewis to discuss the party manifestos for the forthcoming general election. Plus American political pollster Frank Luntz, and a chat with undecided voters in Leeds. Journalists Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards review the papers.