22/01/2012 Sunday Politics West


22/01/2012

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In the West: The company's charging you to work for them. We look at

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1764 seconds

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internships. Valuable work Welcome to the Sunday Politics in

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the West. Fancy working for nothing? Well, that's what we

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expect of thousands of our young people.

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Today, we're looking at interns, the young men and women who give

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their time and energy for free, in return for a chance to get a foot

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in some employer's door. But is it really just exploitation?

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We'll be discussing that later. But talking of people looking for work

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experience and not getting a fee, let's meet our two guests of the

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week. They are Anne Snelgrove for Labour - she used to represent

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Swindon and worked inside Number 10 with Gordon Brown, where she gave

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him a hug every daywhether he wanted one or not. And for the

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Conservatives, James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire, who calls himself

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a "proper Conservative" and wouldn't dream of giving David

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Cameron a hug, even though he says they're good friends. Talking of

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leaders, Mr Milliband this week has distanced himself from the unions.

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Mr Cameron is distancing himself from greedy bosses - are they

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moving closer together? I wouldn't have thought so. I think

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what David was talking about during the week is very sensible. Some of

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the salaries in the City you hear about, nobody's Labour can possibly

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be worth �100 million. So I think the Commons was sensible. These

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were things Ed Miliband was saying last year. He might be in trouble

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with the right-wing press but he is certainly not in trouble with me.

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You supported Ed Balls and the leadership. He was my second choice.

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You picked a wrong one! No, I think all leaders, when you are taking

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over from what was a pretty bad election result for us in 2010, all

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leaders, the first one after that result is going to find it

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difficult. Due what Mr Miliband to stay for the next election? I am an

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active member of the Safe Ed Miliband campaign. He is absolutely

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hopeless. And nice fellow, not a bad man. His is complete nonsense,

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of course. What aid is doing in his speech, he is setting out strong

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leadership goals for this year. I think he is doing really well.

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shall wait and see. Elections are being held this year

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for new police commissioners. Their job will be to hold your local

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force to account. The successful candidate will be able to hire the

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chief constable and earn up to �100,000 a year. Paul Barltrop

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reports on how the police are trying to reconnect with the public.

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The challenge of modern crime. The latest figures show that overall it

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is down, but robberies are up, especially on our streets. And

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that's where a new initiative in Gloucestershire is focused. It's

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called Streetwatch - ordinary folk out on patrol, unaccompanied,

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though for this week's launch they had uniformed officers alongside.

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The force chose this innovation, but officers are wary of another

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coming their way - elected police commissioners, ordered by the

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government. What people want is to see us get away from the political

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accountability of the last few years and restore democratic

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accountability, giving a local voice to people and what is

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happening in their area. Presently, the Home Secretary sets

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overall strategies and provides national funding to police

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authorities, made up of local councillors and appointees. They

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fix budgets and hold police forces to account.

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It's these worthies who'll be swept aside, in favour of an elected,

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salaried commissioner. So this could be one of the last meetings

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of the Avon and Somerset Police Authority. But fear not, they may

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still have a role on the new Police and Crime Panels who will

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scrutinise the commissioners elected in November.

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Let's talk to Dr Tim Brain, who was chief constable of Gloucestershire

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police. He is now a research fellow at Cardiff University. Are you

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going to stand? I have to say, it is not time to make that decision

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yet. Anybody who is concerned about communities and policing and not

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concerned that much about politics will consider it is important to

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have an independent voice in these new arrangements. But these

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arrangements will be loaded in favour of the standard political

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parties. It has been designed by politicians for politicians. So you

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don't think you did get elected as an independent? I think they will

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find it difficult. They don't have a party machine to get them through

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the electoral process. So you say you might stand in Gloucestershire.

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Say you did a new one, the chief constable there has the ex-chief

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popping along to stick his oration. These new commissioners are going

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to be a permanent part of the scene. They will turn up once a fortnight,

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once a month. So who is in charge? The government intends the chief

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constable to be in charge of operations and have directional

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control of the force, but it will be in a different political context.

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I am not in favour of this course, there was room for reforming the

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old police authorities and making them more accountable, but not to

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so much power being concentrated in one person, even if that person is

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elected once every four years. It is quite autocratic, in fact. But

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there is a sharing of power and the two individuals will just have to

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get along. I will see some -- I can see some rows coming up. They will

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probably be behind closed doors though. There will be some egos.

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Corridors of power. James Gray, how many people do you meet in your

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constituency you say, what we really need is an elected police

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commissioner on �100,000 a year? have not met a single person who

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says that. I am not commenced there is any need for these people at

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will. I'm not certain we have a gap. If we do have them, I think Tim is

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wrong. I would like to see someone independent. We have two or three

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independents and the House of Commons. But he is saying he'd have

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of England independent could get elected because they need a party

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machine behind them. Also, you must -- you must take into account that

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is a large constituencies. How you meant to put leaflets in everyone's

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door. I'd say we can find a way around that. It doesn't have to be

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party political. If there are people who will be out there in

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good at it, go for it! We will find a way. Labour was against this from

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the start. If there is an election coming up, a major party cannot

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fail to take part. But we are in the middle of a very deep recession.

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We're going to see thousands of police officers made redundant in

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the next couple of years. We will see a shrinking, fewer police

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officers on the street because of the cuts. And yet at the same time

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we're going to be spending billions on electing these police

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commissioners and is going to cost at least �112 million more to run

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the police commissioners in this country. Will it help that there

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will be a face for the public? not at all. I'm not sure how much

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it is going to cost for the election, I think that is a bit of

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an exaggeration. It is �112 million more than it is at the moment. The

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issue far as is that two is right. The constituencies are large, it is

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like the European elections. one thing I can say about all this

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is police chiefs and the forces behind them happily sink at their

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heart. They're going to try and make this work. It is a dangerous

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politicisation of a system that hitherto has been renowned

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throughout the world for being a political. Thank you for coming in

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and sharing it with us. If you are young and looking for

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work, you will know that it's almost as hard to get work

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experience as it is to get an actual job. The demand is so high

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that some companies are charging people for work experience, with

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youngsters often paying more than �100 a day for that precious line

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on their CVs. So is it right? And are even MPs using free labour,

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dressed up as work experience? Dickon Hooper reports.

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Students know how important it is to get work experience nowadays -

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without it you've little or no chance of getting a job. Would you

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pay to get work experience? I'm not sure about that. Personally, I know

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because I don't think it's worth it. It's something they want you to do

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that their company. They are benefiting from you being there

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anyway. If it was needed for you to get the job, then yes.

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This Somerset company takes a fee for putting people in touch with

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small businesses who'll provide that experience and training - so

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long as you pay for it. We're providing people with the

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opportunity to put a fantastic set of information on their CV. If you

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want to get work experience for a large company, it is reasonable

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that these large multinationals have a corporate social

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responsibility and therefore will provide this kind of training for

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free. But if you look at smaller companies where you have one or two

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people working in the business, typically they don't provide

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training because they don't have the money or resources.

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Sadgrove does run other businesses. If you want experience as a

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copywriter with them, you will have to pay. You think you are aware

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that paying you �130 a day for that? I don't think �130 is frankly

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enough for someone to get the kind of experience they can get here, to

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be honest. Graham Light is a photographer in Gloucestershire.

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You can get a day with him for �95. What they get is my experience of

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35 years in this industry, where I can guide them and show them the

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various aspects of the industry that might be relevant. I also

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think they put more value on it if they have actually invested some of

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their money into it. It's not the sort of thing I'm doing to make

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money, because to be honest I would normally charge a lot more than

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that for a date. But critics say pain for work experience means it

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is not open to everyone. The Deputy Prime Minister himself says

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internships hold back social mobility, even though Westminster

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is awash with them. All political parties have been running offices

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on the efforts of underpaid or none pay people for far too long.

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One of our MPs has gone further, paying out of her own pocket to

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help youngsters get on the jobs ladder. I have had over 40 young

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people through my office doing work-experience in the last year. I

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paid for their lunchers and travel out of my personal money, not

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taxpayers' money, not party money, my own pocket. But I think it is a

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fantastic opportunity for young people actually see what it is like.

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For these students then, some tough decisions ahead, which may well

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depend on their ability to pay for them.

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Gus Baker is the President of Bristol Students' Union and

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campaigner for Intern Aware - what's wrong with companies

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charging students for work placement or Internships? Unpaid

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internships are biased against people who cannot afford them. They

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are often in London where costs are particularly high. For one month,

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it would cost you �1,000. You're paying to work for free. OK if you

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have the Bank of mum and dad behind you. Exactly. So you get hard-

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working, talented people who have played by the rules with good

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degrees, and the door is slammed in their face by these and paid into

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chips. Would experience lesson number one - life isn't fair, get

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used to it. But there is no need for that. The national minimum wage

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should be enforced. Then people just won't offer internships, will

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they? Why would they want to pay �6 an hour for a graduate to come

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around and have a look? Graduates of universities have fantastic

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skills, they are well qualified and educated and they are worth that 6p

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an hour. There were fit to those companies. -- �6 an hour. They are

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worth it. It seems there is some exploitation going on, we do agree

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with that? I would. I think politicians should be on the bright

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side of this. They should not be taking on its young people and not

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paying for them. It is worth a lot to have that on their CV. It is of

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value, so that is the payment, in a way. Well, if only a certain group

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of people can come into my office to get that experience because of

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wealth, not ability, then that is wrong. I did pay some of my intense

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the national minimum wage. Not all of them? No, because some of them

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were doing one day a week and it was not classed as an internship.

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Volunteering, work-experience. is quite a grey area. Why would you

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pay someone to come and get some training for you? If they are

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shadowing, just watching what is going on, then of course they don't

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need to be paid. But what is actually happening is people are

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doing real work, work that otherwise employees would be doing.

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I guess it comes back to moral capitalism, really. If companies

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were run by a loyal -- more people, they wouldn't do that. Well,

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Parliament is different. My office is very small, I have one person

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working for me, so I don't have a need for work experience. But out

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there in the big world, the question is, do you take someone

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for an unpaid internship if you are a company that is doing badly, or

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nobody at all? But absolutely take your point about London. How you

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expected to live in London and work for nothing? When I was looking for

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work, there were companies looking for graduates and their what were

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you, they would try to get you. Now it is a different type of the cycle.

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It is an employers' market at the moment. It is really hurting people

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and these are illegal placements. The National Minimum wage Act says

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that if you were doing work you must be paid their least �6.80 p an

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hour. There are cases at tribunals that have come back with that

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result. If there any young people watching you feel they have been

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exploited, go to a website -- our website for more information.

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thank you for joining us. It's been a busy political week

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again here in the West - we've crammed the highlights into our 60

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second round up. Two areas in the west are to trial

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a badger cull - farmers can now apply for a license to shoot them.

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Unemployment rose again...and a warning from a local recruitment

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firm to public sector workers looking for jobs

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Book lovers in Gloucestershire say they'll take their fight to save

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libraries back to court. Another delay for Bristol City's

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new stadium. Book lovers in Gloucestershire say

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they'll take their fight to save libraries back to court. The

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council have promised to save three, but seven others face closure

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unless volunteers step in. And in a parallel universe, Jacob

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Rees-Mogg joked clocks in Somerset should be 15 minutes behind

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everyone else! People in Somerset are so clever that they can deal

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with these things. People in other places around the country can't.

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Work that one out when you're trying to catch a train! James, you

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voted for a badger cull - will it work? That's right, 25,000 cows are

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killed because of TB. Throughout the world, the any way you can

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eliminate TV in Cowes is by getting rid of the badgers and the other

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wildlife that carry it. So it has to be done, alongside other

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strategies like inoculation. think inoculation is the way to go.

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There a lot of new companies setting up to do this. If you cull

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badgers in another area, a new set will arrive. If you cold 70% of the

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badgers, you reduce -- you reduce TB by 17%. It is not a huge

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decrease. We had Carling in this country until 1980. There are now

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�25,000 a year. It cost us �10 billion and the next 10 years.

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about the badgers? We are a country that loves our wildlife. The badger

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cull will cost a lot of money and devastate... It will cost us

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nothing. The farmers are doing it themselves. Well, it will not be

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very successful, because if you just have a farmer with a gun going

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out shooting the badgers, how is he going, he is not going to get all

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of them? The other day, Anne Snelgrove was in here telling me we

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couldn't kill foxes using dogs. She said, let's get people out to shoot

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the foxes. How can country people win?! I don't think it's fair,

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there are more effective ways of keeping tea be away from cows. One

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of them would be to secure the bonds -- the barns so the bad just

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don't come in for the feed. there was, we would have done it

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