22/01/2012 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston presents. Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna on Labour's plan for the economy and is it time to leave the European Court of Human Rights?

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In the West: The company's charging you to work for them. We look at


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1764 seconds


internships. Valuable work Welcome to the Sunday Politics in


the West. Fancy working for nothing? Well, that's what we


expect of thousands of our young people.


Today, we're looking at interns, the young men and women who give


their time and energy for free, in return for a chance to get a foot


in some employer's door. But is it really just exploitation?


We'll be discussing that later. But talking of people looking for work


experience and not getting a fee, let's meet our two guests of the


week. They are Anne Snelgrove for Labour - she used to represent


Swindon and worked inside Number 10 with Gordon Brown, where she gave


him a hug every daywhether he wanted one or not. And for the


Conservatives, James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire, who calls himself


a "proper Conservative" and wouldn't dream of giving David


Cameron a hug, even though he says they're good friends. Talking of


leaders, Mr Milliband this week has distanced himself from the unions.


Mr Cameron is distancing himself from greedy bosses - are they


moving closer together? I wouldn't have thought so. I think


what David was talking about during the week is very sensible. Some of


the salaries in the City you hear about, nobody's Labour can possibly


be worth �100 million. So I think the Commons was sensible. These


were things Ed Miliband was saying last year. He might be in trouble


with the right-wing press but he is certainly not in trouble with me.


You supported Ed Balls and the leadership. He was my second choice.


You picked a wrong one! No, I think all leaders, when you are taking


over from what was a pretty bad election result for us in 2010, all


leaders, the first one after that result is going to find it


difficult. Due what Mr Miliband to stay for the next election? I am an


active member of the Safe Ed Miliband campaign. He is absolutely


hopeless. And nice fellow, not a bad man. His is complete nonsense,


of course. What aid is doing in his speech, he is setting out strong


leadership goals for this year. I think he is doing really well.


shall wait and see. Elections are being held this year


for new police commissioners. Their job will be to hold your local


force to account. The successful candidate will be able to hire the


chief constable and earn up to �100,000 a year. Paul Barltrop


reports on how the police are trying to reconnect with the public.


The challenge of modern crime. The latest figures show that overall it


is down, but robberies are up, especially on our streets. And


that's where a new initiative in Gloucestershire is focused. It's


called Streetwatch - ordinary folk out on patrol, unaccompanied,


though for this week's launch they had uniformed officers alongside.


The force chose this innovation, but officers are wary of another


coming their way - elected police commissioners, ordered by the


government. What people want is to see us get away from the political


accountability of the last few years and restore democratic


accountability, giving a local voice to people and what is


happening in their area. Presently, the Home Secretary sets


overall strategies and provides national funding to police


authorities, made up of local councillors and appointees. They


fix budgets and hold police forces to account.


It's these worthies who'll be swept aside, in favour of an elected,


salaried commissioner. So this could be one of the last meetings


of the Avon and Somerset Police Authority. But fear not, they may


still have a role on the new Police and Crime Panels who will


scrutinise the commissioners elected in November.


Let's talk to Dr Tim Brain, who was chief constable of Gloucestershire


police. He is now a research fellow at Cardiff University. Are you


going to stand? I have to say, it is not time to make that decision


yet. Anybody who is concerned about communities and policing and not


concerned that much about politics will consider it is important to


have an independent voice in these new arrangements. But these


arrangements will be loaded in favour of the standard political


parties. It has been designed by politicians for politicians. So you


don't think you did get elected as an independent? I think they will


find it difficult. They don't have a party machine to get them through


the electoral process. So you say you might stand in Gloucestershire.


Say you did a new one, the chief constable there has the ex-chief


popping along to stick his oration. These new commissioners are going


to be a permanent part of the scene. They will turn up once a fortnight,


once a month. So who is in charge? The government intends the chief


constable to be in charge of operations and have directional


control of the force, but it will be in a different political context.


I am not in favour of this course, there was room for reforming the


old police authorities and making them more accountable, but not to


so much power being concentrated in one person, even if that person is


elected once every four years. It is quite autocratic, in fact. But


there is a sharing of power and the two individuals will just have to


get along. I will see some -- I can see some rows coming up. They will


probably be behind closed doors though. There will be some egos.


Corridors of power. James Gray, how many people do you meet in your


constituency you say, what we really need is an elected police


commissioner on �100,000 a year? have not met a single person who


says that. I am not commenced there is any need for these people at


will. I'm not certain we have a gap. If we do have them, I think Tim is


wrong. I would like to see someone independent. We have two or three


independents and the House of Commons. But he is saying he'd have


of England independent could get elected because they need a party


machine behind them. Also, you must -- you must take into account that


is a large constituencies. How you meant to put leaflets in everyone's


door. I'd say we can find a way around that. It doesn't have to be


party political. If there are people who will be out there in


good at it, go for it! We will find a way. Labour was against this from


the start. If there is an election coming up, a major party cannot


fail to take part. But we are in the middle of a very deep recession.


We're going to see thousands of police officers made redundant in


the next couple of years. We will see a shrinking, fewer police


officers on the street because of the cuts. And yet at the same time


we're going to be spending billions on electing these police


commissioners and is going to cost at least �112 million more to run


the police commissioners in this country. Will it help that there


will be a face for the public? not at all. I'm not sure how much


it is going to cost for the election, I think that is a bit of


an exaggeration. It is �112 million more than it is at the moment. The


issue far as is that two is right. The constituencies are large, it is


like the European elections. one thing I can say about all this


is police chiefs and the forces behind them happily sink at their


heart. They're going to try and make this work. It is a dangerous


politicisation of a system that hitherto has been renowned


throughout the world for being a political. Thank you for coming in


and sharing it with us. If you are young and looking for


work, you will know that it's almost as hard to get work


experience as it is to get an actual job. The demand is so high


that some companies are charging people for work experience, with


youngsters often paying more than �100 a day for that precious line


on their CVs. So is it right? And are even MPs using free labour,


dressed up as work experience? Dickon Hooper reports.


Students know how important it is to get work experience nowadays -


without it you've little or no chance of getting a job. Would you


pay to get work experience? I'm not sure about that. Personally, I know


because I don't think it's worth it. It's something they want you to do


that their company. They are benefiting from you being there


anyway. If it was needed for you to get the job, then yes.


This Somerset company takes a fee for putting people in touch with


small businesses who'll provide that experience and training - so


long as you pay for it. We're providing people with the


opportunity to put a fantastic set of information on their CV. If you


want to get work experience for a large company, it is reasonable


that these large multinationals have a corporate social


responsibility and therefore will provide this kind of training for


free. But if you look at smaller companies where you have one or two


people working in the business, typically they don't provide


training because they don't have the money or resources.


Sadgrove does run other businesses. If you want experience as a


copywriter with them, you will have to pay. You think you are aware


that paying you �130 a day for that? I don't think �130 is frankly


enough for someone to get the kind of experience they can get here, to


be honest. Graham Light is a photographer in Gloucestershire.


You can get a day with him for �95. What they get is my experience of


35 years in this industry, where I can guide them and show them the


various aspects of the industry that might be relevant. I also


think they put more value on it if they have actually invested some of


their money into it. It's not the sort of thing I'm doing to make


money, because to be honest I would normally charge a lot more than


that for a date. But critics say pain for work experience means it


is not open to everyone. The Deputy Prime Minister himself says


internships hold back social mobility, even though Westminster


is awash with them. All political parties have been running offices


on the efforts of underpaid or none pay people for far too long.


One of our MPs has gone further, paying out of her own pocket to


help youngsters get on the jobs ladder. I have had over 40 young


people through my office doing work-experience in the last year. I


paid for their lunchers and travel out of my personal money, not


taxpayers' money, not party money, my own pocket. But I think it is a


fantastic opportunity for young people actually see what it is like.


For these students then, some tough decisions ahead, which may well


depend on their ability to pay for them.


Gus Baker is the President of Bristol Students' Union and


campaigner for Intern Aware - what's wrong with companies


charging students for work placement or Internships? Unpaid


internships are biased against people who cannot afford them. They


are often in London where costs are particularly high. For one month,


it would cost you �1,000. You're paying to work for free. OK if you


have the Bank of mum and dad behind you. Exactly. So you get hard-


working, talented people who have played by the rules with good


degrees, and the door is slammed in their face by these and paid into


chips. Would experience lesson number one - life isn't fair, get


used to it. But there is no need for that. The national minimum wage


should be enforced. Then people just won't offer internships, will


they? Why would they want to pay �6 an hour for a graduate to come


around and have a look? Graduates of universities have fantastic


skills, they are well qualified and educated and they are worth that 6p


an hour. There were fit to those companies. -- �6 an hour. They are


worth it. It seems there is some exploitation going on, we do agree


with that? I would. I think politicians should be on the bright


side of this. They should not be taking on its young people and not


paying for them. It is worth a lot to have that on their CV. It is of


value, so that is the payment, in a way. Well, if only a certain group


of people can come into my office to get that experience because of


wealth, not ability, then that is wrong. I did pay some of my intense


the national minimum wage. Not all of them? No, because some of them


were doing one day a week and it was not classed as an internship.


Volunteering, work-experience. is quite a grey area. Why would you


pay someone to come and get some training for you? If they are


shadowing, just watching what is going on, then of course they don't


need to be paid. But what is actually happening is people are


doing real work, work that otherwise employees would be doing.


I guess it comes back to moral capitalism, really. If companies


were run by a loyal -- more people, they wouldn't do that. Well,


Parliament is different. My office is very small, I have one person


working for me, so I don't have a need for work experience. But out


there in the big world, the question is, do you take someone


for an unpaid internship if you are a company that is doing badly, or


nobody at all? But absolutely take your point about London. How you


expected to live in London and work for nothing? When I was looking for


work, there were companies looking for graduates and their what were


you, they would try to get you. Now it is a different type of the cycle.


It is an employers' market at the moment. It is really hurting people


and these are illegal placements. The National Minimum wage Act says


that if you were doing work you must be paid their least �6.80 p an


hour. There are cases at tribunals that have come back with that


result. If there any young people watching you feel they have been


exploited, go to a website -- our website for more information.


thank you for joining us. It's been a busy political week


again here in the West - we've crammed the highlights into our 60


second round up. Two areas in the west are to trial


a badger cull - farmers can now apply for a license to shoot them.


Unemployment rose again...and a warning from a local recruitment


firm to public sector workers looking for jobs


Book lovers in Gloucestershire say they'll take their fight to save


libraries back to court. Another delay for Bristol City's


new stadium. Book lovers in Gloucestershire say


they'll take their fight to save libraries back to court. The


council have promised to save three, but seven others face closure


unless volunteers step in. And in a parallel universe, Jacob


Rees-Mogg joked clocks in Somerset should be 15 minutes behind


everyone else! People in Somerset are so clever that they can deal


with these things. People in other places around the country can't.


Work that one out when you're trying to catch a train! James, you


voted for a badger cull - will it work? That's right, 25,000 cows are


killed because of TB. Throughout the world, the any way you can


eliminate TV in Cowes is by getting rid of the badgers and the other


wildlife that carry it. So it has to be done, alongside other


strategies like inoculation. think inoculation is the way to go.


There a lot of new companies setting up to do this. If you cull


badgers in another area, a new set will arrive. If you cold 70% of the


badgers, you reduce -- you reduce TB by 17%. It is not a huge


decrease. We had Carling in this country until 1980. There are now


�25,000 a year. It cost us �10 billion and the next 10 years.


about the badgers? We are a country that loves our wildlife. The badger


cull will cost a lot of money and devastate... It will cost us


nothing. The farmers are doing it themselves. Well, it will not be


very successful, because if you just have a farmer with a gun going


out shooting the badgers, how is he going, he is not going to get all


of them? The other day, Anne Snelgrove was in here telling me we


couldn't kill foxes using dogs. She said, let's get people out to shoot


the foxes. How can country people win?! I don't think it's fair,


there are more effective ways of keeping tea be away from cows. One


of them would be to secure the bonds -- the barns so the bad just


don't come in for the feed. there was, we would have done it


Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news with Shadow Business Secretary Chuka Umunna on Labour's plan for the economy and is it time to leave the European Court of Human Rights?

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