22/04/2012 Sunday Politics West

In the west: In less than two weeks Bristol will

vote on having a directly elected Mayor. But is Lord Heseltine right

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1733 seconds

when he says a Yes vote would help Welcome. Coming up: Bristol on the

cusp. Thousands will vote in less than two weeks in whether the city

should elect a mayor. Is Lord Heseltine right when he says a yes

vote could transform the city? An interview with him coming up soon.

I hope you are not too worn out after the London Marathon. It's

exhausting sitting on the sofa, watching them. I am joined by two

fine athletes to talk local politics. Charlotte Lesley is a

boxer and Conservative MP. Labour's Dawn Primarolo knows how to fight a

political scrap but now the days -- nowadays she is a deputy speaker in

the House of Commons. Welcome to you both. Charlotte, the

Conservatives are falling in the polls. Has the Prime Minister had a

disastrous week? The country is in a mess after 13

years of Labour. We've got a difficult job to do. We are not

ahead at the moment. No surprises there. There is a long way to go.

Is it one of those things, Dawn? Is this the start of bigger things for

Ed Miliband? I think we have to wait and see

where the government -- whether the Government's get a grip of being in

government. They've had a disastrous couple of months and not

just the Budget. It makes you think, did they have a list of people who

they wanted to upset because those that they haven't is smaller, from

granny tax to pass these two caravans. The problem is beginning

to be the mantra that it was all the Labour government's fault and

we are going to make the economy work has worn out. Unemployment is

Unemployment is going down, actually.

In Bristol, it is going up. The change was very small over the

whole country. We are still at a 25 year high for Women in unemployment.

Not at all. The reason we are in the mess we are in his governments

have -- politicians have been doing knee-jerk politics and don't have a

long-term plan for the future of this country.

Our main story this week, does Bristol need eight directly elected

mayor? The debate on both sides is hotting up ahead of the referendum

on 3rd May. One of the main advocates is Lord Michael Heseltine,

the man they used to call tar sand. He thinks that without a Mayet,

Bristol will sink into the mud. It will just go on with the same

problems it has now. The most acute one, there have been six different

leaders of the council in 10 years. If you have that degree of chopping

and changing, you don't get a coherent policy, you don't follow

things through, you don't get decisions taken. There is a general

disenchantment in the way the city is run.

We need a city dictator, do we? I think that's silly. A phrase

invented by those who try to protect their own power base. There

has always got to be a job gone. Look across the world and show me a

sophisticated economy like us with whom we have to compete which has

not got a directly elected leaders in their major cities.

Do you accept there is a risk, if Bristol were to decide to have a

mayor, what if you get the wrong one?

You can get the wrong end p, you can get the wrong chief executive,

you can get the wrong council leader.

You can't do anything about it, though.

There is always a downside, risk, in human societies, papers are full

of the downside risks. You say a mayor of Bristol might

become a nationally known or even internationally known figure. Are

you serious? I'm more than serious and that is

the essence of the case. Bristol, along with other great English

cities is fighting for inward investment, for higher standards of

service, for the prestige of its environment. That is all tied up

with having someone who represents that case, puts the case to the

local people, and is elected by the local people. If they are so well-

known, who is a fudge them? -- Dave Hodgson?

We don't have them in the country yet.

He is the mayor of... You have never heard of them. You are making

my point. They don't have the power that is necessary to make the job

worthwhile. This government is offering the chance to devolve real

power. And have we got the calibre of people in Bristol, do you think?

You asking that question terrifies me. Are you telling me there is no

one in Bristol capable of leading Bristol? What has gone wrong in our

society that cities that were world peacemakers 100 years ago are now,

in your language, not even capable of producing a leader.

I just ask you if you knew anybody. I believe the people of Bristol

would recognise such a person if they emerged and whatever you think,

the fact that there have been six different leaders in 10 years tells

me something is radically wrong with the leadership of Bristol.

Thank you, Lord Heseltine. Joining me is Bill Martin, and

Alderman in Bristol and a former councillor and Lord Mayor. He is

leading the No campaign in the city. You heard Michael Heseltine sailing,

get a grip. -- saying. I think that is rich from Michael

Heseltine. He took more powers away from local councils than any

government before or since. What are they offering? We don't know.

They have been on the website and query to what extra funding would

be made available, what extra powers would Bristol get, and they

won't tell us until not only after the referendum but after the

election. Bristol has to plod along, just the

way it has always done things? You say that. I don't think Bristol

just plods along. It is a great city and I enjoy living here. It

has got many things that keep people here. Also people come to

our university and stay. A graveyard of ambition, some

people call it. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean to say the council is

particularly dynamic and in Wales, where they have a strong political

voice, occasionally we miss out. I take that point but of course,

Wales has greater powers in terms of the Welsh Assembly.

You were offered powers and you are not taking them.

We are not told what they are. Let's bring in are over two guests.

A nice job for one of you? Know, find you.

Not for me. I've got Bristol North West to take care of. I think the

attitude we've seen is exactly why Britain is punching below its

weight and maybe a few people in the council house like to think we

are not but nationally, look at our transport record. We've got some of

the lowest investment per head in the country in terms of the

transport structure. I am a Bob Dylan fan. If he comes to the area,

he goes to Cardiff. I want him to come to Bristol.

But you are not a councillor any more. You have been complacent?

That's not true. Basically, government has decided how much

money local councils Gadd. Without money, you cannot build. There was

an arena with the government in the south-west and the plug was pulled

on it. That wasn't the city council's fault, that was the

government. He said he was not going to go for

it but are you in favour or not? In principle, I like the idea of

Meyer's but let me be frank, there are no extra powers being offered.

We are told to wait and see. Secondly, there are huge challenges

that Bristol faces, things like housing and transport. The mayor

would have power to deal with those. Thirdly, can somebody explain to me

how concentrating all the power in one person who is there for four

years will work? One city that has been there and

got the T-shirt is Doncaster. That is up north. They've decided to

have an elected mayor and it has been a roller-coaster ride ever

Like Bristol, it's got some nice Georgian buildings and a few

historic churches. Both places are at regenerating and benefit from

attractive waterways but yes, it still seems bizarre to be looking

at Doncaster in South Yorkshire. Of the 11 places that have had elected

mayors for a decade, Doncaster is the most comparable to Bristol in

terms of population and is also one of the most interesting. Mayors

have proved controversial and politics has been bruising. When

postal votes on 3rd May, people here will be deciding whether to

get rid of theirs. Doncaster is the Labour heartland. One of its MPs is

Ed Miliband. They dominate the council and won the first mayoral

robes. There was shock in 2009 with the election of Peter Davis of the

English Democrat party. A blunt Yorkshireman, he remains

controversial. He likes to put the boot into political correctness and

meddling bureaucrats. I was able to come in here and say, right, a new

start. Let's clear the desk -- clear the decks and reduce spending.

Let's make government more efficient and more people centred.

One of his first savings was to halve his own salary. Now he is

planning to get rid of most councillors. The people pick the

mayor, not some cabal of councils in the background. There are far

too many of them. 63 in Doncaster. They are impotent and they know

they are impotent, which makes them frustrated. In the council chamber,

I meet the chief troublemaker, Labour councillor Sandra Holland.

It has been a nightmare. Not only has it been a challenged and tested

our skills and abilities but I've got 44 Labour councillors who are

passionate about Doncaster, passionate about moving it forward,

and they feel terribly frustrated by having no say and no power in

their town. She is campaigning for an end to

elected mayors. It is wholly undemocratic and also

costly because nearly half a million pounds is spent on a

mayoral election every four years. That is money that could be spent

on frontline services and all the assets that they say an elected

mayor brings to a town can be done by a leader.

Out on the High Street, I talked to a BBC reporter who has covered

Doncaster's turbulent politics. What people here will tell you is

the last 10 years, the town centre has been transformed but certain

things such as children's services, another core service, have not been

managed particularly well. The government is still helping to run

the council. Among the 300,000 residents, there

is plenty of knowledge and opinion about the mayor. What would your

advice be to people in Bristol? Don't have elected mayors. They get

all powerful. He's got a very strong personality,

I know that. He is not a pushover. I think he is good for Doncaster.

I would say be careful about who you choose.

This is what I like about him. He does Staudt -- sort things out.

The people will decide on 3rd May and in Doncaster, polls suggested

support for keeping elected mayors but what matters most in -- is

whose supporters will be bothered to vote.

That is the experience in Doncaster. Dawn, the point you're making

before the film, what is wrong with having so much power in one

person's hands? I thought that the argument for

Meyer's was about greater accountability and responsiveness

to an area and the problem with a mayor is you have a mayor erected -

- elected and a council with a democratic mandate. I would say

that structures don't change things. The vision, the dynamism that Lord

Heseltine speaks about is what actions do.

If you do things by committee, things don't get done.

That is absolutely not true, David. You have lived in the city as long

as I have. Look at the great things that have gone on. The visions of a

Labour council to say, let's develop the city docks. It was

almost a vision to fill them meant with concrete, wasn't it?

It was but it didn't happen. Do we need more elections?

It is democratic because how many people vote for councillors? 800?

1,000? You say that but the turnout for

referenda for elected mayors is less than 30%. If it is a close

vote it is something like 15 or 16% of Bristol's electorate is decided.

We are going down a one-way street for an elected mayor. Other places

can go back to the people and get rid of that office. We in Bristol

are not being given that opportunity. I guess we would have

to vote for the right person? But we still can't get rid of the

Office of elected mayor. What is so interesting about

Doncaster is actually, the vested interest in the status quo. They

have had their world disrupted and they don't like it. If you ask the

people of Bristol what they think of Bristol politics, they say it's

a shambles. You've got party- political bickering, the colour of

the city changes every so often. I didn't vote for the council leader.

But you can vote them out. I think you should let the people decide

but tell them what they are deciding on. Tell them what powers

the Mail would need. Would they be able to run transport? How would we

deal with the fact that so much that effects Bristol happens in

south Gloucestershire? He once the local mayor to be like

Alex Salmond. Certainly, demanding change.

Forgive me but that is it. People are entitled to be treated like

grown-ups when they are making a decision like this. Tell them what

the powers are, how it would be different and how it would work.

With the city Deal, you can do things over transport.

But you can't. People were injured when the

government says, you've got freedom. The key thing is this, you've got

one person running the city who you can vote in and out. Which way do

you think it is going to go, Bill? Let's be fair, the No campaign are

fighting an uphill battle because the Conservative Party are fighting

eight Yes campaign. They are bringing in the big hitters like

Lord Heseltine. It is cross-party. On Monday, a more important party

is coming. The Conservatives are bringing these people in.

They want to win it. Party-political bickering has

tracked Bristol down for so long. The Conservatives have rarely, if

ever, controlled those cities in the normal democratic process.

Thank you for joining us. Time for the round-up of today's week's

It is the end of an era as the Bristol Evening Post changed its

name and cuts the Saturday edition of the paper. Staff protested

against using -- losing 19 of its 57 staff. The controversial Tory

leader of Somerset County Council has stood down to run as one of the

government's new Police Commissioner's while in office he

was responsible for driving through a cuts agenda to balance the budget.

The West is the most successful -- successful region in the country

for convicting those responsible for hate crime. Offenders who

target victims because of their disability, race or sexuality will

be brought to justice. Able to man who is fighting for the right to be

killed by a doctor says the commission on assisted dying has

let him down. Tony let Clinton has locked-in syndrome -- niggling son.

He says the law needs to be changed to help people like him.

That Was the Week in 60 seconds. Let's talk about the Evening Post

and those cutbacks there. The Bath paper has gone to a weekly.

It is a difficult situation when you've got a changing war --

changing world and more people are going digital. Local papers are

having to adapt and different industries are having to adapt,

like the book industry. I hope with dealing like things -- with dealing

like things like electronic readers, we adapt to.

I know the Evening Post hasn't always been friendly towards you

but it is a great paper with great tradition?

I agree it's very sad. There are challenges to the media industry

and newspapers in particular but they depend on advertising.

Advertising is either going elsewhere or going down and I think

that for Bristol, it is really important that we maintain at least

a daily newspaper and I would be incredibly sad to see the slow,

painful demise of the Evening Post. I think we are all agreed on that.

Very quickly, go ahead. I think we over estimate how many

people have digital access as well. That is all we've got time for this