20/05/2012 Sunday Politics West

In the west: the Tory who told us that the Euro Project would end in

tears. David Heathcoat Amory has written a book on his fight against

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1801 seconds

Europe, but what happens in the Thank you and welcome to Sunday

Politics West. Coming up in the next 20 minutes, what are we going

to do about Europe? Our biggest trading partner is in chaos

threatening jobs and living standards. Will be your way track

us down as well? As Greece decides whether to leave

the Euro, we are joined by two politicians who know what it is

like to be thrown out of the club because of both of my guests lost

their seats at the last election. They are David Heathcoat Amory and

David Drew. We are now freed from the party whips and they can say

what they really think. Welcome to you both. David on the

end, what is lifelike outside of politics? It is fine in some

respects. I miss not being in Parliament, but I have been pre-

selected as the Labour co-operative candidate so I am busy as ever and

a councillor on Stroud District. That will be an interesting time

and I am doing a PhD looking at rural politics so busy as ever.

Join the club. The other David, it was a long career that you had, you

did not want to go, but you have to. How are you finding things? I miss

it. It is a privilege to be an MP. But there is life outside politics,

I am still busy and in business now. I am the chairman of a property

company so I am doing good for the economy, helping people, paying tax

and helping the economy grow. I am also the chairman of a fund-raising

committee for the Diamond Jubilee pageant. I built a hydro scheme,

written a book. Have you had enough? That is enough for the time

being. The crisis in the euro-zone, fear

that jobs and income could be dragged into the mess. We can't say

that we weren't warned about the Euro. David Heathcoat Amory was one

of those Conservatives who banged on about Europe endlessly. Now he

has written a book. Remember this? Wiliam Hague

campaigning against the Euro in Somerset. He judged that the West

Country was a hotbed of resistance. I am delighted to be here in

Taunton as one of the first stops of the campaign. It was a passion

for one of the party's MPs at the time, David Heathcoat Amory. He is

one of the Conservatives said Mr Cameron accuses of banging on about

the Euro. The we will be submitting ourselves formally and irreversibly

to his superior political authority, something we have never done.

even resign from John Major's government on the issue. Europe was

his passion, PR skills, maybe less so. Doing my best for my

constituents. I have no comment. Well it seems his predictions were

right. Greece is burning with fury over the austerity imposed on them.

Another Euro-sceptic, Michael Portillo, with similar views got a

surprise in a TV documentary on the crisis this week. He thought

everyone would want to return to the track Maher, but they did not.

Something I would like to ask you all. He is a choice, euros or

drachma? Euro. Which would you choose? I prefer Euro. What about

you? In the end, it was not Europe that dented David Heathcoat Amory's

political career, but something closer to home. A pile of manure on

his garden. Although his expenses were more modest than most, he

claimed for his fertiliser. It may have been enough to ensure his

defeat. The questions remain, was he right about the EU? And what

does he think will happen next? Just to put the cat among upright -

- pigeons, I am joined by Ken Daly he is a Pro-Euro Conservative. We

will chat to you in a moment, but first here is the book we were

talking about. Do you feel that you have been vindicated? Frankly, yes.

It is unattractive for a politician to say I told you so and I made a

lot of mistakes, but I did get this one right. I think we are owed an

apology by those who thought this was a passport to general

prosperity in Europe. It was always a political project. Economics were

always a problem. The mess has been caused by bankers, hasn't it?

Greece has now had it and I feel very strongly that the workers, the

poorest people, are suffering the most. The bankers are OK. The

bureaucrats -- bureaucrats will not suffer, but they are sick kitchens

in Athens now because foolishly they were bought into this madcap

idea. But they don't want to go back. Well, they want someone else

to pay. They want the Germans to continue paying the bankers so they

can live happily after -- ever after. Was Mr Cameron right to say

you should stop banging on about it? At the time he wanted to

campaign on other things, but Europe is a big elephant in the

room and if we don't get this right, we will face a milk than in Europe

with unpredictable consequences. All these people have votes, you

see. There is a political revolution going on and the

political class in Europe have to get real, swallow their pride,

admit they made a mistake and then we can get back to building a

better more democratic Europe of which we can all live peacefully.

Of separate states? Separate currencies. He won the whole thing

to go under? I want a trade zone, but I don't want the fantasy that

we can all share the same currency. This isn't working, it is a

catastrophe. There is no easy way out, but we have to get back to

basics. All three your career you talked about Europe, do you have --

accept that it became an obsession? I did a lot of other things. I

served in five ministries and I wasn't solely going on about Europe

or banging on about it. It is true that the way we are governed and

who governs us is very important. This is the result for me get it

wrong. Let's bring the others into this. Ken Daly, he was right all

along, wasn't he? Absolutely not. David has been tilting at European

windmills for the last 25 years, and got it wrong most of the time.

Really? Absolutely. Europe has problems at the moment, but as you

said in your opening remarks, this is not just a Greek crisis or a

Euro crisis, it is the latest chapter in the banking collapse.

That is what has really put politicians and governments are

under pressure. The only way that Britain and the other countries in

Europe are going to tackle this is by working together across Europe

and, indeed, I hope that with Barack Obama in the States, and

they will need to do this before the Republican tea-party get him...

David -- at Tony Blair almost porters into the Euro, didn't he?

The best thing that Gordon Brown did was not get us into that. The

experiment that we have been launched into without any clear

idea of where it will end up has been a disaster. Like David, I am

sympathetic. To the Spanish, the Italians, even to allow cells

because part of the Disconnect with politics in this country is because

people no longer feel they have leadership in this country because

power has drained away. But it is still not an issue that excites

most people. We will get a full postbag after this programme

because people interested in Europe are very interested, but most

people aren't. There is increasingly an understanding about

how Europe links into a manner of other things. My critique is that I

am against the single market. I believe we must trade and have co-

operation, but the single market is something I think is impossible to

deliver and can be a dangerous. This is a good time for country is

not to work together? No, it is a time to work together, but we can

do that in the macro-economic framework. It means we have to have

strong leadership across Government's and that is hopefully

what the G8 will do this weekend. Some attempts are going to be done

to relaunch growth. At the end the West Country, do you sense that

these guys have won the argument? Not really. If you look at the

company in Wales with which I believe is trading vigorously in

Europe, there are plenty of opportunities in Europe and plenty

of jobs created in doing business with Europe. What these to overlook

completely this that until the banking crisis, the single currency

has been a massive success. We have had a big increase in internal

trade across Europe which has created many new jobs, it has

enabled businesses to increase production and reduce unit costs

and to deliver a wide range of products to consumers. This has

been an enormous increase in the standard of living of the citizen.

You don't want to believe it, but it is a truth. This is nonsense.

You can trade with people without sharing the currency. How do the

Americans and Chinese sell into Europe? By trading. They also have

the advantage of massive markets. really do think we need an apology

from those people who said this is the way forward. They were wrong.

We are not going to get out of this mess and less we have the humility

to admit we were wrong. As much as though some argument within the

Tory party, we have to elevated to now. I am not a member of the

Conservative Party. Well, for -- formally. Let's take a pause for a

minute and find that what one business thinks of us being in

Europe. We went into Wales to a company that sees more pros and

cons. Wales is better known for beauty

than industry, but tucked away, this firm is the kind of hands on

manufacturing you don't often see these days. Skilled workers

cleaning and repair printer suck -- cartridges. One in five of these

are packed off to countries in Europe. This firm thinks the EU is

essential to business. I really believe that we should stay in the

EU, the reasons are the links to the Euro. That makes our ability to

trade with Europe much easier. Imports and exports are tariff free.

We can move goods easily in and out which is critical. Last year,

exports were worth over �1 million, but that is not all. When we were

out last week, they were selling quite nice holograms out of the

Czech Republic. It is not just free trade, his company get staff and

grants from Europe. We recently received some funding through I met

to enable us to develop our website. There is free labour around the

European Europe -- union which is important. In this corner of the

West, the idea of pulling out fully or partially does not stack up.

The views from one company in Wales. Onshore others have other views.

David Drew, this week you endorse the prospect of an in out

referendum in the next government. I have long supported that, so it

is nothing new. I believe that to give people confidence, they have

some accountability of their leadership. It is about time they

have that debate. Which way we G campaign? I am against the EU.

you want out? I want out of what I see as a constraining economic

entity. David, do you think Ray should be that commitment in the

Conservative manifesto, and in out measure. People must be asked what

they think about Europe. I think we need a relationship, but the

relationship is wrong. We must establish our powers of self-

government, get rid of the Euro and build a Europe on consent. That

means a referendum of some sort in this country. If Labour had a

referendum commitment in their manifesto and the Conservatives

didn't, would you vote Labour? I will always vote Conservative

because we are the only party that can deliver this. If they are

saying it is likely they will have a vote, why wouldn't you back them?

Because they broke their word on the last promise which was to have

a referendum on the European constitution. The Liberal Democrat

and the Labour Party, together, they had a coalition them. I know

what happened and they denied us by a majority that vote to have a

referendum on the European constitution. We were denied the

promised manifesto commitment. you agree that all the parties

should be -- should reflect what the public want. If it was in or

out, what would you say? I would vote to leave. I think it is more

complicated than that, but if it came to that choice, leave and then

opt back into what we want. Daly, how would you feel about

that? There is a strong possibility that people would vote for out.

could be a crazy decision to come out. You are talking about a

financial crisis at the present time. You have to remember, when

the Euro started the pound was worth 1.60 euros. The pound has

subsequently collapsed and is 1.25 euros. * All strong. But on the

other hand it has dropped during that time. He would have a much

bigger fall if you came up. What would happen if we left Europe? At

the moment, David Cameron is crying from the sidelines saying get on

and get gross. We have no say in it because we are not part of the Euro,

we would have even less safe. Our economic livelihood depends on how

the euro-zone does. It would not be the typed political union it has

become. It needs to become a much looser confederation of states.

would campaign for alt? I would campaign for a different sort of

Euro. There is no point going on about growth. I would break the

single market currency. The Germans will not pay out. The only way that

serving European countries can grow is to get back their own powers of

self government and price themselves back into the market.

They are growing as quickly as us. The economy is collapsing. Germany

and France are doing better than us. It is not surprising Germany are

doing better. It is wrong to say that if they were not independent

they would survive better. Let's take a spin through the other

stories making the headlines this week.

There is a new man at the top of Somerset County Council, the

Conservative John Osmond became leader this week. He faces tough

decisions over cuts, but says he has a different style of leadership

to his predecessor. Allowed to go out, consult and listen to all the

people they make decisions. Caroline Spelman visited Highbridge

in Somerset to announce new money for businesses. 10 companies will

get new premises and super-fast broadband. It has been talked about

for years, but this week the Prime Minister pledged his support to the

building of the Severn barrage. has many advantages. There is a

huge amount of renewable energy that can be delivered through a

barrage. A rainbow coalition, Labour, Lib Dems and greens is to

run the council in Stroud. It follows local elections two weeks

ago when the Conservatives lost the seat making it a hung council.

Phew, that was the last week. Let's pick up from one of those stories.

What is going on in Stroud with the rainbow coalition. We are not

called a rainbow coalition, we have been in no overall control before.

We will do it again. We will see where the Conservatives want to

come from. At the moment we have a left to centre arrangement which we

call a co-operative Alliance. do you think about this coalition?

I am not too brilliant about coalitions. You need them in a

crisis, but in the longer term they do not work. I wasn't allowed rider

in my own party, David slightly on a limb about Europe. So Labour and

Conservative parties within themselves are coalitions. If you

bung them altogether, it does not work. Clear dividing lines on

needed which is why we are not a coalition in Stroud. I don't think

the present coalition will go the distance. I do, for the wrong

reasons. I just think the strains and stresses are too great. The

Liberal Democrats are crazy about Europe. They want to go into the

single currency our cells, thank God they did not have that

opportunity. He have a total difference of opinion on the