20/05/2012 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by the Energy and Climate Change Secretary Ed Davey.

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In the west: the Tory who told us that the Euro Project would end in


tears. David Heathcoat Amory has written a book on his fight against


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1801 seconds


Europe, but what happens in the Thank you and welcome to Sunday


Politics West. Coming up in the next 20 minutes, what are we going


to do about Europe? Our biggest trading partner is in chaos


threatening jobs and living standards. Will be your way track


us down as well? As Greece decides whether to leave


the Euro, we are joined by two politicians who know what it is


like to be thrown out of the club because of both of my guests lost


their seats at the last election. They are David Heathcoat Amory and


David Drew. We are now freed from the party whips and they can say


what they really think. Welcome to you both. David on the


end, what is lifelike outside of politics? It is fine in some


respects. I miss not being in Parliament, but I have been pre-


selected as the Labour co-operative candidate so I am busy as ever and


a councillor on Stroud District. That will be an interesting time


and I am doing a PhD looking at rural politics so busy as ever.


Join the club. The other David, it was a long career that you had, you


did not want to go, but you have to. How are you finding things? I miss


it. It is a privilege to be an MP. But there is life outside politics,


I am still busy and in business now. I am the chairman of a property


company so I am doing good for the economy, helping people, paying tax


and helping the economy grow. I am also the chairman of a fund-raising


committee for the Diamond Jubilee pageant. I built a hydro scheme,


written a book. Have you had enough? That is enough for the time


being. The crisis in the euro-zone, fear


that jobs and income could be dragged into the mess. We can't say


that we weren't warned about the Euro. David Heathcoat Amory was one


of those Conservatives who banged on about Europe endlessly. Now he


has written a book. Remember this? Wiliam Hague


campaigning against the Euro in Somerset. He judged that the West


Country was a hotbed of resistance. I am delighted to be here in


Taunton as one of the first stops of the campaign. It was a passion


for one of the party's MPs at the time, David Heathcoat Amory. He is


one of the Conservatives said Mr Cameron accuses of banging on about


the Euro. The we will be submitting ourselves formally and irreversibly


to his superior political authority, something we have never done.


even resign from John Major's government on the issue. Europe was


his passion, PR skills, maybe less so. Doing my best for my


constituents. I have no comment. Well it seems his predictions were


right. Greece is burning with fury over the austerity imposed on them.


Another Euro-sceptic, Michael Portillo, with similar views got a


surprise in a TV documentary on the crisis this week. He thought


everyone would want to return to the track Maher, but they did not.


Something I would like to ask you all. He is a choice, euros or


drachma? Euro. Which would you choose? I prefer Euro. What about


you? In the end, it was not Europe that dented David Heathcoat Amory's


political career, but something closer to home. A pile of manure on


his garden. Although his expenses were more modest than most, he


claimed for his fertiliser. It may have been enough to ensure his


defeat. The questions remain, was he right about the EU? And what


does he think will happen next? Just to put the cat among upright -


- pigeons, I am joined by Ken Daly he is a Pro-Euro Conservative. We


will chat to you in a moment, but first here is the book we were


talking about. Do you feel that you have been vindicated? Frankly, yes.


It is unattractive for a politician to say I told you so and I made a


lot of mistakes, but I did get this one right. I think we are owed an


apology by those who thought this was a passport to general


prosperity in Europe. It was always a political project. Economics were


always a problem. The mess has been caused by bankers, hasn't it?


Greece has now had it and I feel very strongly that the workers, the


poorest people, are suffering the most. The bankers are OK. The


bureaucrats -- bureaucrats will not suffer, but they are sick kitchens


in Athens now because foolishly they were bought into this madcap


idea. But they don't want to go back. Well, they want someone else


to pay. They want the Germans to continue paying the bankers so they


can live happily after -- ever after. Was Mr Cameron right to say


you should stop banging on about it? At the time he wanted to


campaign on other things, but Europe is a big elephant in the


room and if we don't get this right, we will face a milk than in Europe


with unpredictable consequences. All these people have votes, you


see. There is a political revolution going on and the


political class in Europe have to get real, swallow their pride,


admit they made a mistake and then we can get back to building a


better more democratic Europe of which we can all live peacefully.


Of separate states? Separate currencies. He won the whole thing


to go under? I want a trade zone, but I don't want the fantasy that


we can all share the same currency. This isn't working, it is a


catastrophe. There is no easy way out, but we have to get back to


basics. All three your career you talked about Europe, do you have --


accept that it became an obsession? I did a lot of other things. I


served in five ministries and I wasn't solely going on about Europe


or banging on about it. It is true that the way we are governed and


who governs us is very important. This is the result for me get it


wrong. Let's bring the others into this. Ken Daly, he was right all


along, wasn't he? Absolutely not. David has been tilting at European


windmills for the last 25 years, and got it wrong most of the time.


Really? Absolutely. Europe has problems at the moment, but as you


said in your opening remarks, this is not just a Greek crisis or a


Euro crisis, it is the latest chapter in the banking collapse.


That is what has really put politicians and governments are


under pressure. The only way that Britain and the other countries in


Europe are going to tackle this is by working together across Europe


and, indeed, I hope that with Barack Obama in the States, and


they will need to do this before the Republican tea-party get him...


David -- at Tony Blair almost porters into the Euro, didn't he?


The best thing that Gordon Brown did was not get us into that. The


experiment that we have been launched into without any clear


idea of where it will end up has been a disaster. Like David, I am


sympathetic. To the Spanish, the Italians, even to allow cells


because part of the Disconnect with politics in this country is because


people no longer feel they have leadership in this country because


power has drained away. But it is still not an issue that excites


most people. We will get a full postbag after this programme


because people interested in Europe are very interested, but most


people aren't. There is increasingly an understanding about


how Europe links into a manner of other things. My critique is that I


am against the single market. I believe we must trade and have co-


operation, but the single market is something I think is impossible to


deliver and can be a dangerous. This is a good time for country is


not to work together? No, it is a time to work together, but we can


do that in the macro-economic framework. It means we have to have


strong leadership across Government's and that is hopefully


what the G8 will do this weekend. Some attempts are going to be done


to relaunch growth. At the end the West Country, do you sense that


these guys have won the argument? Not really. If you look at the


company in Wales with which I believe is trading vigorously in


Europe, there are plenty of opportunities in Europe and plenty


of jobs created in doing business with Europe. What these to overlook


completely this that until the banking crisis, the single currency


has been a massive success. We have had a big increase in internal


trade across Europe which has created many new jobs, it has


enabled businesses to increase production and reduce unit costs


and to deliver a wide range of products to consumers. This has


been an enormous increase in the standard of living of the citizen.


You don't want to believe it, but it is a truth. This is nonsense.


You can trade with people without sharing the currency. How do the


Americans and Chinese sell into Europe? By trading. They also have


the advantage of massive markets. really do think we need an apology


from those people who said this is the way forward. They were wrong.


We are not going to get out of this mess and less we have the humility


to admit we were wrong. As much as though some argument within the


Tory party, we have to elevated to now. I am not a member of the


Conservative Party. Well, for -- formally. Let's take a pause for a


minute and find that what one business thinks of us being in


Europe. We went into Wales to a company that sees more pros and


cons. Wales is better known for beauty


than industry, but tucked away, this firm is the kind of hands on


manufacturing you don't often see these days. Skilled workers


cleaning and repair printer suck -- cartridges. One in five of these


are packed off to countries in Europe. This firm thinks the EU is


essential to business. I really believe that we should stay in the


EU, the reasons are the links to the Euro. That makes our ability to


trade with Europe much easier. Imports and exports are tariff free.


We can move goods easily in and out which is critical. Last year,


exports were worth over �1 million, but that is not all. When we were


out last week, they were selling quite nice holograms out of the


Czech Republic. It is not just free trade, his company get staff and


grants from Europe. We recently received some funding through I met


to enable us to develop our website. There is free labour around the


European Europe -- union which is important. In this corner of the


West, the idea of pulling out fully or partially does not stack up.


The views from one company in Wales. Onshore others have other views.


David Drew, this week you endorse the prospect of an in out


referendum in the next government. I have long supported that, so it


is nothing new. I believe that to give people confidence, they have


some accountability of their leadership. It is about time they


have that debate. Which way we G campaign? I am against the EU.


you want out? I want out of what I see as a constraining economic


entity. David, do you think Ray should be that commitment in the


Conservative manifesto, and in out measure. People must be asked what


they think about Europe. I think we need a relationship, but the


relationship is wrong. We must establish our powers of self-


government, get rid of the Euro and build a Europe on consent. That


means a referendum of some sort in this country. If Labour had a


referendum commitment in their manifesto and the Conservatives


didn't, would you vote Labour? I will always vote Conservative


because we are the only party that can deliver this. If they are


saying it is likely they will have a vote, why wouldn't you back them?


Because they broke their word on the last promise which was to have


a referendum on the European constitution. The Liberal Democrat


and the Labour Party, together, they had a coalition them. I know


what happened and they denied us by a majority that vote to have a


referendum on the European constitution. We were denied the


promised manifesto commitment. you agree that all the parties


should be -- should reflect what the public want. If it was in or


out, what would you say? I would vote to leave. I think it is more


complicated than that, but if it came to that choice, leave and then


opt back into what we want. Daly, how would you feel about


that? There is a strong possibility that people would vote for out.


could be a crazy decision to come out. You are talking about a


financial crisis at the present time. You have to remember, when


the Euro started the pound was worth 1.60 euros. The pound has


subsequently collapsed and is 1.25 euros. * All strong. But on the


other hand it has dropped during that time. He would have a much


bigger fall if you came up. What would happen if we left Europe? At


the moment, David Cameron is crying from the sidelines saying get on


and get gross. We have no say in it because we are not part of the Euro,


we would have even less safe. Our economic livelihood depends on how


the euro-zone does. It would not be the typed political union it has


become. It needs to become a much looser confederation of states.


would campaign for alt? I would campaign for a different sort of


Euro. There is no point going on about growth. I would break the


single market currency. The Germans will not pay out. The only way that


serving European countries can grow is to get back their own powers of


self government and price themselves back into the market.


They are growing as quickly as us. The economy is collapsing. Germany


and France are doing better than us. It is not surprising Germany are


doing better. It is wrong to say that if they were not independent


they would survive better. Let's take a spin through the other


stories making the headlines this week.


There is a new man at the top of Somerset County Council, the


Conservative John Osmond became leader this week. He faces tough


decisions over cuts, but says he has a different style of leadership


to his predecessor. Allowed to go out, consult and listen to all the


people they make decisions. Caroline Spelman visited Highbridge


in Somerset to announce new money for businesses. 10 companies will


get new premises and super-fast broadband. It has been talked about


for years, but this week the Prime Minister pledged his support to the


building of the Severn barrage. has many advantages. There is a


huge amount of renewable energy that can be delivered through a


barrage. A rainbow coalition, Labour, Lib Dems and greens is to


run the council in Stroud. It follows local elections two weeks


ago when the Conservatives lost the seat making it a hung council.


Phew, that was the last week. Let's pick up from one of those stories.


What is going on in Stroud with the rainbow coalition. We are not


called a rainbow coalition, we have been in no overall control before.


We will do it again. We will see where the Conservatives want to


come from. At the moment we have a left to centre arrangement which we


call a co-operative Alliance. do you think about this coalition?


I am not too brilliant about coalitions. You need them in a


crisis, but in the longer term they do not work. I wasn't allowed rider


in my own party, David slightly on a limb about Europe. So Labour and


Conservative parties within themselves are coalitions. If you


bung them altogether, it does not work. Clear dividing lines on


needed which is why we are not a coalition in Stroud. I don't think


the present coalition will go the distance. I do, for the wrong


reasons. I just think the strains and stresses are too great. The


Liberal Democrats are crazy about Europe. They want to go into the


single currency our cells, thank God they did not have that


opportunity. He have a total difference of opinion on the


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