20/05/2012 Sunday Politics West


20/05/2012

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by the Energy and Climate Change Secretary Ed Davey.


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In the west: the Tory who told us that the Euro Project would end in

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tears. David Heathcoat Amory has written a book on his fight against

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1801 seconds

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Europe, but what happens in the Thank you and welcome to Sunday

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Politics West. Coming up in the next 20 minutes, what are we going

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to do about Europe? Our biggest trading partner is in chaos

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threatening jobs and living standards. Will be your way track

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us down as well? As Greece decides whether to leave

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the Euro, we are joined by two politicians who know what it is

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like to be thrown out of the club because of both of my guests lost

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their seats at the last election. They are David Heathcoat Amory and

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David Drew. We are now freed from the party whips and they can say

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what they really think. Welcome to you both. David on the

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end, what is lifelike outside of politics? It is fine in some

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respects. I miss not being in Parliament, but I have been pre-

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selected as the Labour co-operative candidate so I am busy as ever and

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a councillor on Stroud District. That will be an interesting time

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and I am doing a PhD looking at rural politics so busy as ever.

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Join the club. The other David, it was a long career that you had, you

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did not want to go, but you have to. How are you finding things? I miss

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it. It is a privilege to be an MP. But there is life outside politics,

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I am still busy and in business now. I am the chairman of a property

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company so I am doing good for the economy, helping people, paying tax

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and helping the economy grow. I am also the chairman of a fund-raising

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committee for the Diamond Jubilee pageant. I built a hydro scheme,

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written a book. Have you had enough? That is enough for the time

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being. The crisis in the euro-zone, fear

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that jobs and income could be dragged into the mess. We can't say

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that we weren't warned about the Euro. David Heathcoat Amory was one

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of those Conservatives who banged on about Europe endlessly. Now he

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has written a book. Remember this? Wiliam Hague

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campaigning against the Euro in Somerset. He judged that the West

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Country was a hotbed of resistance. I am delighted to be here in

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Taunton as one of the first stops of the campaign. It was a passion

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for one of the party's MPs at the time, David Heathcoat Amory. He is

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one of the Conservatives said Mr Cameron accuses of banging on about

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the Euro. The we will be submitting ourselves formally and irreversibly

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to his superior political authority, something we have never done.

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even resign from John Major's government on the issue. Europe was

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his passion, PR skills, maybe less so. Doing my best for my

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constituents. I have no comment. Well it seems his predictions were

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right. Greece is burning with fury over the austerity imposed on them.

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Another Euro-sceptic, Michael Portillo, with similar views got a

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surprise in a TV documentary on the crisis this week. He thought

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everyone would want to return to the track Maher, but they did not.

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Something I would like to ask you all. He is a choice, euros or

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drachma? Euro. Which would you choose? I prefer Euro. What about

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you? In the end, it was not Europe that dented David Heathcoat Amory's

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political career, but something closer to home. A pile of manure on

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his garden. Although his expenses were more modest than most, he

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claimed for his fertiliser. It may have been enough to ensure his

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defeat. The questions remain, was he right about the EU? And what

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does he think will happen next? Just to put the cat among upright -

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- pigeons, I am joined by Ken Daly he is a Pro-Euro Conservative. We

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will chat to you in a moment, but first here is the book we were

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talking about. Do you feel that you have been vindicated? Frankly, yes.

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It is unattractive for a politician to say I told you so and I made a

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lot of mistakes, but I did get this one right. I think we are owed an

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apology by those who thought this was a passport to general

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prosperity in Europe. It was always a political project. Economics were

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always a problem. The mess has been caused by bankers, hasn't it?

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Greece has now had it and I feel very strongly that the workers, the

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poorest people, are suffering the most. The bankers are OK. The

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bureaucrats -- bureaucrats will not suffer, but they are sick kitchens

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in Athens now because foolishly they were bought into this madcap

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idea. But they don't want to go back. Well, they want someone else

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to pay. They want the Germans to continue paying the bankers so they

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can live happily after -- ever after. Was Mr Cameron right to say

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you should stop banging on about it? At the time he wanted to

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campaign on other things, but Europe is a big elephant in the

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room and if we don't get this right, we will face a milk than in Europe

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with unpredictable consequences. All these people have votes, you

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see. There is a political revolution going on and the

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political class in Europe have to get real, swallow their pride,

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admit they made a mistake and then we can get back to building a

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better more democratic Europe of which we can all live peacefully.

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Of separate states? Separate currencies. He won the whole thing

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to go under? I want a trade zone, but I don't want the fantasy that

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we can all share the same currency. This isn't working, it is a

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catastrophe. There is no easy way out, but we have to get back to

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basics. All three your career you talked about Europe, do you have --

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accept that it became an obsession? I did a lot of other things. I

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served in five ministries and I wasn't solely going on about Europe

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or banging on about it. It is true that the way we are governed and

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who governs us is very important. This is the result for me get it

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wrong. Let's bring the others into this. Ken Daly, he was right all

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along, wasn't he? Absolutely not. David has been tilting at European

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windmills for the last 25 years, and got it wrong most of the time.

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Really? Absolutely. Europe has problems at the moment, but as you

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said in your opening remarks, this is not just a Greek crisis or a

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Euro crisis, it is the latest chapter in the banking collapse.

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That is what has really put politicians and governments are

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under pressure. The only way that Britain and the other countries in

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Europe are going to tackle this is by working together across Europe

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and, indeed, I hope that with Barack Obama in the States, and

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they will need to do this before the Republican tea-party get him...

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David -- at Tony Blair almost porters into the Euro, didn't he?

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The best thing that Gordon Brown did was not get us into that. The

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experiment that we have been launched into without any clear

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idea of where it will end up has been a disaster. Like David, I am

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sympathetic. To the Spanish, the Italians, even to allow cells

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because part of the Disconnect with politics in this country is because

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people no longer feel they have leadership in this country because

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power has drained away. But it is still not an issue that excites

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most people. We will get a full postbag after this programme

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because people interested in Europe are very interested, but most

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people aren't. There is increasingly an understanding about

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how Europe links into a manner of other things. My critique is that I

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am against the single market. I believe we must trade and have co-

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operation, but the single market is something I think is impossible to

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deliver and can be a dangerous. This is a good time for country is

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not to work together? No, it is a time to work together, but we can

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do that in the macro-economic framework. It means we have to have

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strong leadership across Government's and that is hopefully

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what the G8 will do this weekend. Some attempts are going to be done

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to relaunch growth. At the end the West Country, do you sense that

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these guys have won the argument? Not really. If you look at the

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company in Wales with which I believe is trading vigorously in

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Europe, there are plenty of opportunities in Europe and plenty

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of jobs created in doing business with Europe. What these to overlook

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completely this that until the banking crisis, the single currency

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has been a massive success. We have had a big increase in internal

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trade across Europe which has created many new jobs, it has

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enabled businesses to increase production and reduce unit costs

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and to deliver a wide range of products to consumers. This has

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been an enormous increase in the standard of living of the citizen.

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You don't want to believe it, but it is a truth. This is nonsense.

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You can trade with people without sharing the currency. How do the

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Americans and Chinese sell into Europe? By trading. They also have

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the advantage of massive markets. really do think we need an apology

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from those people who said this is the way forward. They were wrong.

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We are not going to get out of this mess and less we have the humility

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to admit we were wrong. As much as though some argument within the

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Tory party, we have to elevated to now. I am not a member of the

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Conservative Party. Well, for -- formally. Let's take a pause for a

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minute and find that what one business thinks of us being in

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Europe. We went into Wales to a company that sees more pros and

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cons. Wales is better known for beauty

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than industry, but tucked away, this firm is the kind of hands on

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manufacturing you don't often see these days. Skilled workers

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cleaning and repair printer suck -- cartridges. One in five of these

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are packed off to countries in Europe. This firm thinks the EU is

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essential to business. I really believe that we should stay in the

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EU, the reasons are the links to the Euro. That makes our ability to

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trade with Europe much easier. Imports and exports are tariff free.

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We can move goods easily in and out which is critical. Last year,

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exports were worth over �1 million, but that is not all. When we were

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out last week, they were selling quite nice holograms out of the

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Czech Republic. It is not just free trade, his company get staff and

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grants from Europe. We recently received some funding through I met

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to enable us to develop our website. There is free labour around the

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European Europe -- union which is important. In this corner of the

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West, the idea of pulling out fully or partially does not stack up.

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The views from one company in Wales. Onshore others have other views.

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David Drew, this week you endorse the prospect of an in out

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referendum in the next government. I have long supported that, so it

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is nothing new. I believe that to give people confidence, they have

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some accountability of their leadership. It is about time they

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have that debate. Which way we G campaign? I am against the EU.

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you want out? I want out of what I see as a constraining economic

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entity. David, do you think Ray should be that commitment in the

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Conservative manifesto, and in out measure. People must be asked what

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they think about Europe. I think we need a relationship, but the

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relationship is wrong. We must establish our powers of self-

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government, get rid of the Euro and build a Europe on consent. That

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means a referendum of some sort in this country. If Labour had a

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referendum commitment in their manifesto and the Conservatives

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didn't, would you vote Labour? I will always vote Conservative

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because we are the only party that can deliver this. If they are

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saying it is likely they will have a vote, why wouldn't you back them?

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Because they broke their word on the last promise which was to have

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a referendum on the European constitution. The Liberal Democrat

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and the Labour Party, together, they had a coalition them. I know

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what happened and they denied us by a majority that vote to have a

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referendum on the European constitution. We were denied the

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promised manifesto commitment. you agree that all the parties

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should be -- should reflect what the public want. If it was in or

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out, what would you say? I would vote to leave. I think it is more

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complicated than that, but if it came to that choice, leave and then

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opt back into what we want. Daly, how would you feel about

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that? There is a strong possibility that people would vote for out.

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could be a crazy decision to come out. You are talking about a

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financial crisis at the present time. You have to remember, when

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the Euro started the pound was worth 1.60 euros. The pound has

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subsequently collapsed and is 1.25 euros. * All strong. But on the

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other hand it has dropped during that time. He would have a much

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bigger fall if you came up. What would happen if we left Europe? At

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the moment, David Cameron is crying from the sidelines saying get on

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and get gross. We have no say in it because we are not part of the Euro,

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we would have even less safe. Our economic livelihood depends on how

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the euro-zone does. It would not be the typed political union it has

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become. It needs to become a much looser confederation of states.

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would campaign for alt? I would campaign for a different sort of

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Euro. There is no point going on about growth. I would break the

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single market currency. The Germans will not pay out. The only way that

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serving European countries can grow is to get back their own powers of

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self government and price themselves back into the market.

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They are growing as quickly as us. The economy is collapsing. Germany

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and France are doing better than us. It is not surprising Germany are

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doing better. It is wrong to say that if they were not independent

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they would survive better. Let's take a spin through the other

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stories making the headlines this week.

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There is a new man at the top of Somerset County Council, the

:48:58.:49:01.

Conservative John Osmond became leader this week. He faces tough

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decisions over cuts, but says he has a different style of leadership

:49:06.:49:10.

to his predecessor. Allowed to go out, consult and listen to all the

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people they make decisions. Caroline Spelman visited Highbridge

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in Somerset to announce new money for businesses. 10 companies will

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get new premises and super-fast broadband. It has been talked about

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for years, but this week the Prime Minister pledged his support to the

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building of the Severn barrage. has many advantages. There is a

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huge amount of renewable energy that can be delivered through a

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barrage. A rainbow coalition, Labour, Lib Dems and greens is to

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run the council in Stroud. It follows local elections two weeks

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ago when the Conservatives lost the seat making it a hung council.

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Phew, that was the last week. Let's pick up from one of those stories.

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What is going on in Stroud with the rainbow coalition. We are not

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called a rainbow coalition, we have been in no overall control before.

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We will do it again. We will see where the Conservatives want to

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come from. At the moment we have a left to centre arrangement which we

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call a co-operative Alliance. do you think about this coalition?

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I am not too brilliant about coalitions. You need them in a

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crisis, but in the longer term they do not work. I wasn't allowed rider

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in my own party, David slightly on a limb about Europe. So Labour and

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Conservative parties within themselves are coalitions. If you

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bung them altogether, it does not work. Clear dividing lines on

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needed which is why we are not a coalition in Stroud. I don't think

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the present coalition will go the distance. I do, for the wrong

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reasons. I just think the strains and stresses are too great. The

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Liberal Democrats are crazy about Europe. They want to go into the

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single currency our cells, thank God they did not have that

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opportunity. He have a total difference of opinion on the

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