15/07/2012 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news and debate, including interviews with Liberal Democrat minister Jeremy Browne and shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper.

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In the west: After the march by the far-right in Bristol this weekend,


we're looking at the state of race relations.


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1805 seconds


Are the politicians to blame for Good afternoon. We are live this


afternoon with 20 minutes of discussion and debate. Our top


story: at this weekend's march by the English Defence League in


Bristol. Despite 14 arrests it was mainly peaceful, but have


politicians added to aggravation? First, this week's guests. They are


to West Country politicians with precious little in common. They are


Jacob Rees Mogg and Anne Snelgrove. Jacob, you have voted this week


against house of Lords reform. Why have you done that? I think that


they were badly thought-through and I do not think that we should


change constitutional issues without a referendum.


Liberal Democrat wanted a bit of constitutional form --


constitutional reform and you have rebelled. We think it was appalling


that the reforms were introducing proportional representation, which


was rejected over euro. I am afraid that one of the takes his house of


Lords reform. All of the parties want House of


Lords reform, but you have put the kibosh on it by disagreeing with


the timetabling bill. We have great concerns about a timetabling of


this bill over ten days. We have reduced the hereditary Peers by 90


per cent, Brotton and elected Speaker, the people's Peers. --


brought end. They want to have some proper debate about how they can


take this forward. David Cameron has a real problem with this party


now. 91 of his Conservative MPs rebelled against this and he really


has got in trouble of -- got in trouble over this.


I peace march has been held in Bristol this afternoon. It is in


response to yesterday's march by the English Defence League, which


has brought concern to the Nuzum community. The there was a rival


demonstration which kicked off the trouble. What does it say about the


state of community and race relations? It really could not be a


more difference seen today here in Queen Square. It is very calm and


peaceful. If you look around, there is a cycling festival taking place


today, a complete contrast to the best that we witnessed yesterday. -


- to the events that we witnessed. The English Defence League were


marched in conjunction with the police down side streets. Piquet


then living and eventually brought their march into Queen Square,


where there were rallies and speeches.


When they got to the square there had been no trouble, but opponents


of EDL were determined to confront them. Organisations such as We Are


Bristol, who have a record of opposing the EDL. There were some


small groups, there were quite a number of arrests. There were 14


people in total. The day ended on a rather sour note, with the police


having to make a lot of arrests. Let us talk to a couple of people


who were involved and have strong views on this. He did not one there


to be a counter protest yesterday, didn't she? You are right. We were


strongly discouraging people to join in. Before rigor further, I


would like to take the opportunity to thank the police for doing a


marvellous and fantastic job. And to the city as a whole, who


conducted themselves very well. had held tops with EDL and the


organisers of their counter protests -- held meetings. You find


the opponents of their protests difficult to work with? There was a


lot of a motion at stake. Discussions need to happen right at


the beginning, not halfway through, are too close to this event. This


is a learning progress, we need to sit down and discuss how we can


learn how to conduct ourselves much better. You are the Labour


candidate for her the Bristol mayoral election. He pushing into


the counter protests, I you happy with what happened? My name was on


the protest, but there is another story about that. Yesterday was


actually about pride. It is a shame... Wasn't having a big


counter-demonstration close by bound to inflame things? That is


what then is on community had not wanted. People would come out in


protest anyway. The clear thing was what -- the thing to make clear was


to say, they all wanted to make a statement about Bristol. There were


whole mix of people there, a number of people who have delivered


fantastically far the city. A number of community activists who


had been working hard... But that is not the image that people come


away with from the events yesterday, is it? It depends how you reported.


If you look at the events of the gay pride march, and the events


across the city throughout the year, then you have a different image.


will also be focusing later this afternoon on a piece wok, which


will be happening today in order to show the positive side of Bristol -


- peace march. Jacob, why do you think that the


English Defence League find support? The there is a real


problem with the immigration issue, because it has been toxic for


politicians. It has been tied up with ideas of race and politicians


had been very nervous about talking about it in a rational way.


opposing the spread of Islam in this country racist or wrong?


think that that is just wrong. I do not think we should be frightened


of Islam, frightened of other -- frightened of other religions, but


it comes out of a fear of emigration. If politicians had


dealt with their idea of emigration earlier, we would see much more


tolerance in terms of religion. Would you accept that Labour lost


control and allowed immigration on a massive scale. And be left some


traditional Labour supporters, including the White working classes,


feeling threatened? I do not think we lost control. When countries


such as Paul and were -- such as Poland were allowed into the


European Union, then we had some issues. We had problems with cheap


labour coming in from Eastern Europe. We are conflating lot of


issues here. The march yesterday was anti- Islam and chosen on a day


when Bristol were celebrating the pride. There were twice as many


people at the Gay pride celebration as the EDL could muster from the


hold the country. Well done to the Gay pride march and thumbs down to


the EDL. What would you like to see with


immigration? Why has the government not got a handle on it? I am more


of a sceptic than the government has. I think we need to look at all


the immigration problem, can take - - including from the European Union.


We have simply had too many people coming in and providing a labour


force that has paid out of work the indigenous labour force. That is a


problem for our country. Do you accept that immigration drive down


wages, pates pressure on housing? think it has driven down wages,


where housing is concerned, I think that many of those immigrants


living in very bad housing situations, that is my experience


in that Swindon. I think that we need to look at the European Union


again. We would say that we have made some mistakes over emigration,


but not over wider emigration. I just say one thing? A think it is


very unfortunate that a grand mother of a family from the Indian


sub-continent find it -- find it very difficult to come here even


though her family is here. Whereas someone from the European Union can


come here. No questions asked. That is what we need to the cat. Mark


Hook has now been charged with his 112's -- with his 112 offence. He


was given a holiday to Africa and was known as Safari Boy, but does


his serial offending represent a failure of the criminal justice


system? He first made headlines almost 20


years ago after being sent to North Africa on holiday. The aim was to


break his cycle of reoffending, but just one year later, in 1994, Mark


Hook was back in court, charged with more than 30 offences.


perhaps need to invest more in nursery education, youth facilities.


This is not a soft option I am talking about, I am talking about


the choices that society has been investing money.


Over the past two decades he has made promises to change, but this


week he was charged for his 112 offence, stealing a woman's handbag.


The question still remains, can anything be done to make sure this


really is Mark Hook's last time behind bars?


I am joined now by Juliet Lyon from the Prison Reform Trust. Does his


case not short that really we are not on top of serial criminals in


this country and that nothing appears to work?


His case hits exactly the day, or rather tomorrow, when Ken Clarke


and the Prison Reform Trust are celebrating a third drop end youth


crime and the number of children behind bars. Something has happened


that is really successful and to change that dreary cycle of people


going back into jail. You are saying that youth crime is down?


Markedly, 37 per cent. So people would say that it does not feel


like that on the street. It maybe that it is not reported correctly,


but that is actually correct. If you look at this excess of early


intervention, getting people in LA to look at -- to get children out


of trouble. That is what we did want.


People like that young man, a lifetime of crime, to a hundred and


12 offences, he says he will go straight, but no one is holding


their breath that -- 112. What he would look at with someone like


that, prolific persistent offender, he would look at integrated


prisoner management. There are some flagship work being done in that


area. Prison staff, prisoners anti- drug work -- drug workers all


working together. The combination of that and with victims saying,


this is the harm that you have caused me, can help.


A tunic prison sentences longer, they are more effective because you


have more time to work with the prisoner in jail? But you do not


want to get at that point. If someone has committed a serious and


violent offence then prison as the only option, but we should be


focused on stopping at. What would you do with people who regard crime


as a way of life and that there is a revolving door at the Crown


Court? We do have to punish those people, but it is that -- but it is


right that agencies have come together to make sure that crime is


kept down. We will never win with 100 per cent of the people, but the


chief constable said back in 1994, we need more nursery education.


There is a 37 per cent drop in crime, it works. On that particular


case, why it became famous as because he went on a safari is a


young man at the taxpayer's offence. -- expense. I was outraged at that


time, I could not afford to go abroad on holiday. I think we do


need to look at different ways of punishing people, but also helping


them back in. As a Farry is not a good idea. The need to give more


discretion to the judges. There has been a tendency to limit that


discretion, but the judge knows their individual that he is dealing


worth and that people are different. There will be some people who have


committed serious crimes, he need to be locked up for some time, and


others who are redeemable. I do believe that people should be


offered a second chance, and even a third chance, but not necessarily


112 chances. It is harder to get to jail than to


get to Oxford or Cambridge? much more expensive when you get in


than going to Eton. Let us use it for the few people that need to be


pit their. There are 100,000 core offenders


who caused a great deal of crime. What do you do about them?


Unavoidable minimum. What do we mean by that? Probably the number


that when I investigated Strangeways prison. We are


currently locking up 88,000 people. That is fast public offence -- vast


public expense, a necessary. Crime has dropped by almost a third in


the last two years. But that was after a decade of increasing crime.


Are you going to argue about crime dropping? No, but it is coming down


from a high level, that is what am saying. But it has dropped, the


trouble is that good news stories do not make news, but this is


something that all the political party should be proud of, because


everyone has contributed and everyone supports restorative


justice. We have an increase in police numbers in Somerset, that


has made a huge difference. research does show that more


policing does lead to a reduction in crime and of course, police


numbers are being cut. It is worth bearing in mind that crime has cop


-- crime has fallen very sharply now that there are higher numbers


in prison. I think you have to be careful about looking at things at


-- about how things have happened, before jumping to conclusions.


Thank you very much. If you have literally got one minute to spare,


let us catch up on some more political news for the week.


It was an uncomfortable week for the Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg - not


helped by this man, Bristol Councillor John Kiely. He stuck the


boot in this week, calling for the Deputy Prime Minister to resign.


There needs to be a reality check within the party. It is facing


tough times ahead. You will always have people making comments,


sometimes disobliging comments from the sidelines, that is politics.


Wealthy people who own second homes in the Cotswolds will no longer get


a 10% discount on their council tax. Other areas, like Bath and North


East Somerset, are also considering scrapping the discount, claiming


all homeowners should pay "their fair share".


There have been more twists and turns than down a badger sett in


the fight to stop Government plans for a badger cull in


Gloucestershire and Somerset. This week, the High Court threw out an


appeal by campaigners to stop the cull. They have a week to appeal.


Council tax, the full whack on second homes. I have two. Just the


two! I think it is perfectly reasonable. It was a saying that if


you had a second home venue had fewer services. In an age of


austerity, when everyone has to pay more, it is a reasonable discount


to get rid of. I am in agreement with Jacob. I actually think that


in these times of austerity if people can afford to two homes than


they have to pay twice. I am more concerned with their elderly person


living on his or her own who still find it very difficult to find 75


per cent of the council tax. It seems that if we should cut


something, we should cut the council tax for them.


That is it for this series of the Sunday Politics. The government has


done a U-turn on the caravan tax and Jacob is off to his second home


Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including interviews with Liberal Democrat minister Jeremy Browne and shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper.

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