16/12/2012 Sunday Politics West

In the west: It may be Christmas, but scrooge is alive and well.

Local councils want to close your public toilets to save a few

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2150 seconds

pennies. But what other services Thank you Andrew. Welcome to our

final Sunday Politics of 2012 in the West. There is not a comfort

break for us because today toilets are on our agenda. Councils want to

pull the plug on public toilets to save a few pennies. Should these

public services really be sacrificed in the name of

austerity? Joining us with their knees firmly

together are took West Country MPs who share the same executive

bathrooms. They are dom foster the Liberal Democrat and the

Conservative Neil Carmichael. Welcome. You might be colleagues,

but the latest spat between the Lib Dems and Conservatives, this time

over drug policy, the Prime Minister says thing should stay as

they are and Nick Clegg is open to change. He is right? I think the

Prime Minister is absolutely right to make sure that we give careful

consideration to drugs. It needs to be on the agenda, certainly, but we

have to think in a different way. I am a great believer in

rehabilitation. So you think it should be different? I don't think

it is necessary at this stage because there is a clear policy on

drugs. Don Foster? He posed the question as if you are surprised

that two different political parties in a coalition differ on

certain areas of policy. Liberal Democrats have argued for a very

long time that our current drugs policy doesn't work. We have argued

that they should be a royal commission to look at a new way

forward and taking experiences that have been successful in other

countries. Nick Clegg is reflecting what the Liberal Democrats have

always said. The two parties will argue and eventually come with a

united solution. Your view them should be to decriminalise some

drugs? There is hardly any point to say you want a Royal Commission and

then predetermine the outcome. I do have a view and I have expressed it

on your programme before. I actually think that when they

raised the classification of cannabis and then took it down and

then back up again, it was crazy. It was not based on research

evidence that said that cannabis is less harmful than alcohol.

should find out this week how tough the next year will be for the West

councils. The government is due to announce funding. What is certain

is there will be used more cuts to come. Red tape has been slashed so

now a prisoner of services which councils are not obliged to provide.

One major casualty of public toilets.

For decades they have been providing relief, but things are

now getting much less convenient for the public. Bath and North East

Somerset Council wants to wash its hands of the dozen after consulting

local communities. Public facilities like these have been

around for years and it is a shame to see them go. It is very useful

for the young and old alike to have conveniences. I think it is unfair

and unnecessary to get rid of it. can't remember the last time I used

a public toilet. But the others are doing likewise. Somerset is

shutting for him wince at -- in winter. North Somerset has already

closed seven. Nationally it is estimated that 50% have closed in

the last 10 years. This is one of the public toilets

that Bath North East Somerset want to stop funding. They want to do so

because there is no legal obligation on councils to provide

them. They are asking town and parish councils if they want to

take them over, but that is a financial burden not many want to

bed. This toilet closed earlier this year after the parish council

took the bill for taking it over. Handing it over to the local town

or parish council does not save public money. If the district

council isn't paying money, we are. It all comes out of our pockets.

The council decided that we couldn't afford it. Locals are

campaigning to get it reopened. people in the village have signed

the petition. They say it has harmed business on the high street

that is already facing decline. are losing business by the fact the

toilets are not open. It is a facility we need. They are cutting

costs for the sake of cutting costs. Unfortunately we are a small

village and we can't afford to keep it open. They will present their

petition to the district council, but the man grappling with next

year's budget may not be swayed. His coppers have already been

dented by the recent floods. We are being squeezed budget twice, there

are no two ways about it. It is a time of brutal choices. It is a

discretionary activity. I am asking residents which they would prefer

and I think they would come back to us and say to keep the sandbags and

close the toilets. The big money decision about what governments

will give councils originates in Downing Street. In your street, the

buck and the box may well stop here. We think it is on Wednesday that

councils will be told how much money they will receive so the

trouble could hit the fan this week. Joining the debate is the Mayor of

Bristol. And a Labour councillor in Gloucester. Let's talk about

toilets first. Kate, why can't councils do something as simple and

basic as providing a public toilet? It comes down to money and the

problem is that local councils have had the earliest and deepest cuts

of any part of the public sector. Therefore, services they do not

have to provide, however much local residents may want to provide them,

they bear the brunt. But it is basic, isn't it? Isn't that what

councils are therefore? It is and I'm sure residents and councillors

want to provide those services, but when so many cuts are coming down

from government, we really can't afford to do it. It is not an issue,

I guess at the top of your agenda, but it is important, isn't it?

is very important and I have had to consider everything. We are having

to cut 25% of our net budget. That is huge and we have to look at

everything that isn't statutory. I'm desperately trying to save

public toilets, but I was then the next year thinking of clever ways

of doing things. In south Bristol we have a map of cafes and bars

that are prepared to allow the public to use their toilets. That

gives a better service in many ways. I would like to see whether some

public toilets can be used as little businesses, may be having a

flower shop in conjunction and the person who takes it takes

responsibility for it. I think we have to get clever about it rather

than assume that councils supply everything. Don Foster, you are a

Lib Dem where they want to close at least 12 toilets. They are also

working with pubs and restaurants and others to see if they can allow

the public to use those. George is absolutely right, we are going to

have to find smarter ways of doing things. In some cases, public lose

heart I'll run by volunteers. We also know we have many councils

beginning to think about working collaboratively. Why is every

council separately collecting in their rates many? Why do they have

a joint collection? There are lots of really interesting innovative

ways of doing things to reduce costs and often to improve the

quality of service. Your department will announce how much money the

councils get next year from central government. That is a crucial

figure, isn't it? What are you expecting To here? I am partly

going to be saying, and I certainly won't tell you on this programme

because it will be announced when the figures are available. You

can't have an exclusive. Councils spend collectively �114 billion per

year, one quarter of total expenditure. It is a time where we

are having to make cuts so it is right some proper that local

councils take a share. You can give us a sting. Councils themselves

already know, roughly speaking, what they will be getting. What

they heard in the Autumn Statement was good news. They heard that

every other department is having A1 per Saint cut, but we are not

applying it to local councils. We also heard that in the following

year, there is a 2% cut across all government departments and that

will include a local government. How strict do you want the

announcement to be? I think it is important we understand that the

deficit has to be reduced. It is important that we get control of

public expenditure and local government is part of that. One

uttered every �4 is spent on local government. The other driver here

is localism has. We need to start respecting that. What choice do

they have if they is Kurt? Gloucestershire we are successful

at maintaining libraries and are not closing in the toilets and that

is because we have a reserve. bring someone in a at the sharp end.

Your council has made 3.9 million in savings. There isn't room for

much more. We have a community toilette scheme in Gloucester and

there is hardly any public toilet provision. Otherwise the services

that people rely on, we are seeing increasing demand. We spent more on

homelessness in the last six months than in the previous year. There is

no recognition of that in the grants we get from government.

George, again, you have a �36 million black hole? A �36 million

hole in the Budget. Had he made any decisions yet? I have made

decisions, some of which will be announced on the 20th, in terms of

provisional decisions because they go out to consultation in January.

There isn't a lot of room for movement. I have to live within our

means. We are taking the brunt of government cuts that local

authorities are taking the brunt. Could you give us any idea of what

you might be saying? George has already said he will put council

tax up. I have said that and the maximum I can put it up, which is

still a virtual freeze because it is under 2%. In terms of cut --

cuts, where will you hit? They will be across the border. There are

certain essential services that I cannot cut and I want to make sure

we protect the most vulnerable. And you will see that I will protect

the most vulnerable. It is also important to keep council tax low

because that is something vulnerable people are affected by.

I want to see that we to protect the mayors from rubble. We have to

move on because this is the season of goodwill to all men and despite

the doom and gloom, there are some real stories of community spirit

saving local services that have lost government funding. There

isforce group in our Christmas story now.

Are you sitting comfortably? Then let us begin. Deck the halls with

bowls of Harley. Our first Christmas tale is of our libraries.

In Christmases past they enjoyed Council funding, but many have

faced serious cuts. That did not spell the end, many have been saved.

Here in Brockworth, the community stepped in. Father Christmas's sack

stuffed with help from volunteers and local donations. We can do it

differently. We have a very good business model in terms of

volunteer support. You can't do it on fresh air, we still have to pay

the gas and electric bill. We can do it cost-effectively, but not for

free, that is the message to politicians.

Our second tale today is of a good old heart warming meal and time to

meet friends. Even in this time of austerity, much of the adult care

budget has been saved from cuts, but sunk -- funding for some lunch

clubs has been axed, like this one in Bristol. It lost its grand, but

with the help of Janet, Christmas present is still a happy one. David

Cameron's big society in action. are having it here as a church

project. Without people giving us Our final tale is of our young

people and Christmases of the future. The budgets for youth

centres have been slashed by as much as three-quarters in some

areas, but most youth clubs have been saved by volunteers. Hand-made

Christmas cards and messages to loved ones will be kept for years

to come. Until 18 months ago it was funded by the county council. They

ceased all funding so it was a matter of either shutting up all

carrying on as best we could. has been a happy Christmas all

round. Thank you Santa and his community helpers. My ary Christmas

Everyone! Neil Carmichael is chatting away. He never stopped.

Let's talk about Santa and the big society. Is it working or is it a

question of David Cameron foisting of other people's jobs on to the

voluntary sector. In my constituency we have some great

successes. I am dominating it for an award because it is doing so

well as a community because of the big society. Tomorrow I am going to

the opening of the Berkeley Library which is another successful element

of big society. We don't have any libraries closed in Gloucestershire.

Kate, I can't think of a major library or youth club that has

close despite the cuts. Volunteers have come in and saved them. Have

you been crying wolf over the effects of cuts? Not at all. There

was a successful campaign against the county council. The scheme

where the closure of some libraries was challenged successfully. The

library in my ward was to close unless volunteers could run it.

they stepped up? That decision has been changed and the library is

still open. It has an uncertain future, but the problem is,

volunteer libraries may have a place, but you have to have the

capacity hummed community to do it. You need the support and a lot of

that is down to funding. George, this is an area you are interested

in, getting volunteers him. There is a difference between volunteers

and the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector has a lot of paid

people in it and I think has the answer to a lot of these issues.

The voluntary sector is often better geared than local government

in providing services. I come for freeing up the tendering services -

- processes to allow the voluntary sector to step him more often.

is just what we are doing, George. The changes we have made enable us

the opportunity for people in the community, including voluntary

organisations, to come forward and say we can run the service better.

You have to pay us, but we will give a better service. The stuff we

have done on local budgets were local communities come together and

look at how money is spent in their area and see if they come workout

efficient ways of using it. They are finding they can and they can

save money. For free? No, this is the community. The people who are

benefiting from services coming together and saying they want a

bigger say in how money is spent. People who used to do those jobs

are going into debt. A lot of services are contracted out, but we

always contract them to the same big organisations. George is

talking about opening this up and letting other people come with

innovative ways. Not necessarily win the volunteers, but to run

their services in innovative ways. Are the government on to something?

Not necessarily, but we have always had a big voluntary sector in

Gloucestershire. I think they is an important role for that, but when

it comes down to it, you need certainty that services will be

provided and that is where local government has a role to play.

Those services are being provided. Vital services have to be provided

by professionals. Absolutely, but huge areas are going very well.

Education is a key factor. That has nearly all been centralise by the

Academy programme. Yes, but the money is coming. But it is not

local government, it is centralised. We can't get into that we have run

out of time, unfortunately. Thank you both for coming in. He says it

will be exciting times ahead, I wonder what he knows that we don't.

Let's take our final look at the highlights of the week in our 62nd

run down. No new year check throw these rail

passengers. Rail fare increases in 2013. Unions handed out Christmas

cards bearing a message that ticket prices are rising three times

faster than wages. First Great Western said that travelling by

train is still cheaper than driving. An emergency fund has been set up

in world share to help dozens facing Christmas without savings.

60 people invested money in the Christmas club at their local pub,

but he and the money went missing. This is the stuff you read about in

the paper, you don't expect it in a small community. The things MPs do

to their constituents - Charlotte Lesley faced her fear of confined

spaces to see a cave campaigners want protected. No one told me how

small it was and I am pleased they didn't because I might have

chickened out. It was unbelievable that a mayor.

That Was the Week That Was. I want to talk about the Christmas Club

story that has a lot of reaction. Why do people pay into these clubs?

It is a way of saving a little bit every week. He used to have all

sorts of organisations that it that more formally. The message is

simple, only go to a reputable organisation. Their pack went bust

and people lost their money there. I know you don't want more

regulation about everything, but is there an argument for more consumer

protection? You could not have consumer protection for a situation

like this, it is to it informal. Not everybody acts in a dishonest

way, that is one thing to remember. Best wishes for Christmas and the

new year. Thank you very much indeed. That is all we have time

for this week. Thanks again to our guests for joining us on our last

programme of 2012. Don't go away because Sunday Politics continues