03/03/2013 Sunday Politics West


03/03/2013

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with political news, interviews and debate, including business secretary Vince Cable and former Conservative cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell.


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Here in the West, counting the cost Here in the West, counting the cost

:01:26.:01:28.

Here in the West, counting the cost of cleaning up the deadly dust

:01:28.:01:30.

of cleaning up the deadly dust of cleaning up the deadly dust

:01:30.:01:31.

caused by asbestos. Should the caused by asbestos. Should the

:01:31.:01:31.

caused by asbestos. Should the government stepping in and help

:01:31.:01:41.
:01:41.:01:41.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2194 seconds

:01:41.:38:16.

government stepping in and help part of the programme that is just

:38:16.:38:18.

part of the programme that is just part of the programme that is just

:38:18.:38:20.

part of the programme that is just for us in the West. Today our Sunday

:38:20.:38:22.

for us in the West. Today our Sunday Politics investigation reveals how

:38:22.:38:24.

Politics investigation reveals how Politics investigation reveals how

:38:24.:38:25.

local schools are struggling to local schools are struggling to

:38:25.:38:26.

local schools are struggling to clean up asbestos in their

:38:26.:38:28.

clean up asbestos in their buildings. Campaigners want the

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buildings. Campaigners want the buildings. Campaigners want the

:38:29.:38:30.

government to step in and protect government to step in and protect

:38:30.:38:33.

government to step in and protect teachers and pupils in schools. My

:38:33.:38:34.

teachers and pupils in schools. My teachers and pupils in schools. My

:38:34.:38:35.

guests this week are the guests this week are the

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guests this week are the Conservative MP from Swindon Robert

:38:37.:38:39.

Conservative MP from Swindon Robert Conservative MP from Swindon Robert

:38:39.:38:40.

Buckland and the Labour chairperson Buckland and the Labour chairperson

:38:40.:38:42.

Buckland and the Labour chairperson in the South West Clare Moody.

:38:42.:38:43.

in the South West Clare Moody. in the South West Clare Moody.

:38:43.:38:44.

Welcome to you. First let's talk Welcome to you. First let's talk

:38:44.:38:45.

Welcome to you. First let's talk about the matter of the Eastleigh

:38:45.:38:48.

about the matter of the Eastleigh about the matter of the Eastleigh

:38:48.:38:49.

by-election. A seat not 1 million by-election. A seat not 1 million

:38:49.:38:51.

by-election. A seat not 1 million mile away from yours. A blue-collar

:38:51.:38:52.

mile away from yours. A blue-collar mile away from yours. A blue-collar

:38:52.:38:53.

mile away from yours. A blue-collar seat. If that result came through to

:38:53.:38:55.

seat. If that result came through to seat. If that result came through to

:38:55.:38:56.

seat. If that result came through to you in Swindon, you would be toast,

:38:56.:38:58.

you in Swindon, you would be toast, you in Swindon, you would be toast,

:38:58.:38:59.

wouldn't you? The parallels stop wouldn't you? The parallels stop

:38:59.:39:01.

wouldn't you? The parallels stop there because the Liberals won the

:39:01.:39:02.

there because the Liberals won the there because the Liberals won the

:39:02.:39:02.

seat and have organised themselves seat and have organised themselves

:39:02.:39:04.

seat and have organised themselves seat and have organised themselves

:39:04.:39:06.

well in that part of the world for well in that part of the world for

:39:06.:39:07.

well in that part of the world for well in that part of the world for

:39:07.:39:08.

20 years and have an advantage in 20 years and have an advantage in

:39:08.:39:09.

20 years and have an advantage in terms of where they were

:39:09.:39:10.

terms of where they were terms of where they were

:39:10.:39:12.

campaigning. I think the interesting campaigning. I think the interesting

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campaigning. I think the interesting result is where the protest vote

:39:13.:39:15.

result is where the protest vote result is where the protest vote

:39:15.:39:16.

went and we have two acknowledged went and we have two acknowledged

:39:16.:39:18.

went and we have two acknowledged there was a significant protest in

:39:18.:39:19.

there was a significant protest in there was a significant protest in

:39:19.:39:20.

the form of UKIP and labour the form of UKIP and labour

:39:20.:39:23.

the form of UKIP and labour performed poorly. We have to listen

:39:23.:39:24.

performed poorly. We have to listen performed poorly. We have to listen

:39:24.:39:25.

why people are protesting and why people are protesting and

:39:25.:39:26.

why people are protesting and address the issues that concern

:39:26.:39:28.

address the issues that concern address the issues that concern

:39:28.:39:29.

them, or whether it be immigration them, or whether it be immigration

:39:29.:39:31.

them, or whether it be immigration them, or whether it be immigration

:39:31.:39:32.

them, or whether it be immigration or cost of living. You have to do a

:39:32.:39:34.

or cost of living. You have to do a or cost of living. You have to do a

:39:34.:39:35.

or cost of living. You have to do a deal with UKIP, don't you? No, I

:39:35.:39:37.

deal with UKIP, don't you? No, I deal with UKIP, don't you? No, I

:39:37.:39:37.

deal with UKIP, don't you? No, I don't think it's a question of doing

:39:37.:39:38.

don't think it's a question of doing don't think it's a question of doing

:39:38.:39:39.

don't think it's a question of doing deals. I don't think they want to do

:39:39.:39:41.

deals. I don't think they want to do deals. I don't think they want to do

:39:41.:39:42.

deals. I don't think they want to do deals. I think it's a question of

:39:42.:39:44.

deals. I think it's a question of deals. I think it's a question of

:39:44.:39:44.

looking and listening to the voters looking and listening to the voters

:39:45.:39:46.

looking and listening to the voters themselves and the reasons why they

:39:46.:39:47.

themselves and the reasons why they themselves and the reasons why they

:39:47.:39:50.

protested and then addressing the protested and then addressing the

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protested and then addressing the concerns. Clare, your take on why

:39:51.:39:52.

concerns. Clare, your take on why concerns. Clare, your take on why

:39:52.:39:56.

concerns. Clare, your take on why Labour did not do better? It was a

:39:56.:39:58.

Labour did not do better? It was a Labour did not do better? It was a

:39:58.:39:59.

short campaign and labour were never short campaign and labour were never

:39:59.:40:00.

short campaign and labour were never short campaign and labour were never

:40:00.:40:01.

the story. We were never part of the the story. We were never part of the

:40:01.:40:03.

the story. We were never part of the narrative in Eastleigh. We were a

:40:03.:40:06.

narrative in Eastleigh. We were a narrative in Eastleigh. We were a

:40:06.:40:06.

narrative in Eastleigh. We were a distant third in 2010 and we kept

:40:06.:40:09.

distant third in 2010 and we kept distant third in 2010 and we kept

:40:09.:40:10.

distant third in 2010 and we kept our vote there. What I think was

:40:10.:40:11.

our vote there. What I think was our vote there. What I think was

:40:11.:40:12.

interesting about the vote in interesting about the vote in

:40:12.:40:14.

interesting about the vote in Eastleigh was that actually, there

:40:14.:40:15.

Eastleigh was that actually, there Eastleigh was that actually, there

:40:15.:40:19.

wasn't anyone but the Conservatives wasn't anyone but the Conservatives

:40:19.:40:20.

wasn't anyone but the Conservatives in the constituency so Labour voters

:40:20.:40:21.

in the constituency so Labour voters in the constituency so Labour voters

:40:21.:40:26.

voted LibDem and some Tory voted LibDem and some Tory

:40:26.:40:26.

voted LibDem and some Tory voters... A lot of blue-collar

:40:26.:40:27.

voters... A lot of blue-collar voters... A lot of blue-collar

:40:27.:40:31.

voters... A lot of blue-collar voters voted for UKIP. You yes. The

:40:31.:40:31.

voters voted for UKIP. You yes. The voters voted for UKIP. You yes. The

:40:32.:40:34.

people that didn't vote voted for people that didn't vote voted for

:40:34.:40:35.

people that didn't vote voted for people that didn't vote voted for

:40:35.:40:36.

UKIP. That was going to be the UKIP. That was going to be the

:40:36.:40:42.

UKIP. That was going to be the narrative in this constituency.

:40:42.:40:43.

narrative in this constituency. narrative in this constituency.

:40:43.:40:44.

investigation by the Sunday Politics investigation by the Sunday Politics

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investigation by the Sunday Politics has found that over three quarters

:40:45.:40:47.

has found that over three quarters has found that over three quarters

:40:47.:40:48.

of state-run schools in the west of state-run schools in the west

:40:48.:40:49.

of state-run schools in the west of state-run schools in the west

:40:49.:40:51.

contain asbestos. It is safe if left contain asbestos. It is safe if left

:40:51.:40:52.

contain asbestos. It is safe if left contain asbestos. It is safe if left

:40:52.:40:53.

untouched but if you breathe in dust untouched but if you breathe in dust

:40:53.:40:55.

untouched but if you breathe in dust untouched but if you breathe in dust

:40:55.:40:56.

it can cause a deadly form of it can cause a deadly form of

:40:56.:40:56.

it can cause a deadly form of cancer. All schools are required to

:40:56.:40:57.

cancer. All schools are required to cancer. All schools are required to

:40:57.:40:58.

cancer. All schools are required to cancer. All schools are required to

:40:58.:40:59.

have a plan to deal with it but is have a plan to deal with it but is

:40:59.:41:00.

have a plan to deal with it but is have a plan to deal with it but is

:41:00.:41:01.

it time for the government to insist it time for the government to insist

:41:01.:41:02.

it time for the government to insist it time for the government to insist

:41:02.:41:05.

it is removed and pay the cost? it is removed and pay the cost?

:41:05.:41:06.

it is removed and pay the cost? it is removed and pay the cost?

:41:06.:41:09.

death of Maggie must not be in vain. death of Maggie must not be in vain.

:41:09.:41:11.

death of Maggie must not be in vain. death of Maggie must not be in vain.

:41:11.:41:12.

This is what is said by her husband This is what is said by her husband

:41:12.:41:13.

This is what is said by her husband This is what is said by her husband

:41:13.:41:14.

Alan Baker. She was a primary school Alan Baker. She was a primary school

:41:14.:41:18.

Alan Baker. She was a primary school Alan Baker. She was a primary school

:41:18.:41:18.

teacher for 34 years. In 2011, she teacher for 34 years. In 2011, she

:41:18.:41:22.

was diagnosed with asbestos-related was diagnosed with asbestos-related

:41:22.:41:22.

was diagnosed with asbestos-related cancer. Eventually, we were given

:41:22.:41:24.

cancer. Eventually, we were given cancer. Eventually, we were given

:41:24.:41:26.

the news that she had mesothelioma the news that she had mesothelioma

:41:26.:41:29.

the news that she had mesothelioma the news that she had mesothelioma

:41:29.:41:32.

and it was a tumour. She died last and it was a tumour. She died last

:41:32.:41:33.

and it was a tumour. She died last and it was a tumour. She died last

:41:33.:41:33.

year, a victim of breathing in the year, a victim of breathing in the

:41:33.:41:34.

year, a victim of breathing in the deadly dust from the school

:41:34.:41:37.

deadly dust from the school deadly dust from the school

:41:37.:41:38.

deadly dust from the school cupboard. She spent a lot of time in

:41:38.:41:39.

cupboard. She spent a lot of time in cupboard. She spent a lot of time in

:41:39.:41:42.

and out of their she said. and out of their she said.

:41:42.:41:42.

and out of their she said. Obviously, she was exposed to

:41:42.:41:48.

Obviously, she was exposed to asbestos dust because it's

:41:48.:41:49.

asbestos dust because it's asbestos dust because it's

:41:49.:41:52.

transpired that there was asbestos transpired that there was asbestos

:41:52.:41:54.

transpired that there was asbestos in there. For many years, asbestos

:41:54.:41:56.

in there. For many years, asbestos in there. For many years, asbestos

:41:56.:41:56.

in there. For many years, asbestos was a building material and it was

:41:56.:41:58.

was a building material and it was was a building material and it was

:41:58.:41:59.

only decades later that the dangers only decades later that the dangers

:41:59.:42:00.

only decades later that the dangers became apparent and its use was

:42:00.:42:04.

became apparent and its use was ended. A Sunday Politics

:42:04.:42:05.

ended. A Sunday Politics ended. A Sunday Politics

:42:05.:42:07.

investigation shows that in the investigation shows that in the

:42:07.:42:08.

investigation shows that in the investigation shows that in the

:42:08.:42:09.

West, 80% of our schools contain it. West, 80% of our schools contain it.

:42:09.:42:12.

West, 80% of our schools contain it. That's more than 800. It is

:42:12.:42:13.

That's more than 800. It is especially high in Wiltshire,

:42:13.:42:14.

especially high in Wiltshire, especially high in Wiltshire,

:42:14.:42:17.

Somerset and Bath and North East Somerset and Bath and North East

:42:17.:42:18.

Somerset and Bath and North East Somerset. If left undamaged it's not

:42:18.:42:19.

Somerset. If left undamaged it's not Somerset. If left undamaged it's not

:42:19.:42:20.

Somerset. If left undamaged it's not believed to be a danger but once

:42:20.:42:21.

believed to be a danger but once believed to be a danger but once

:42:21.:42:23.

disturbed, it must be dealt with. disturbed, it must be dealt with.

:42:23.:42:25.

disturbed, it must be dealt with. disturbed, it must be dealt with.

:42:25.:42:26.

Last year, a group of MPs and peers Last year, a group of MPs and peers

:42:26.:42:28.

Last year, a group of MPs and peers called for a national scheme to

:42:28.:42:28.

called for a national scheme to called for a national scheme to

:42:28.:42:29.

called for a national scheme to remove it from schools branding it a

:42:29.:42:32.

remove it from schools branding it a remove it from schools branding it a

:42:32.:42:33.

national scandal. We can't afford to national scandal. We can't afford to

:42:33.:42:36.

national scandal. We can't afford to national scandal. We can't afford to

:42:36.:42:37.

put this off any longer. It's a put this off any longer. It's a

:42:37.:42:38.

put this off any longer. It's a serious problem. If we don't deal

:42:38.:42:39.

serious problem. If we don't deal serious problem. If we don't deal

:42:39.:42:40.

serious problem. If we don't deal with it now, it will come up later

:42:41.:42:41.

with it now, it will come up later with it now, it will come up later

:42:41.:42:42.

with it now, it will come up later in the years and there will be more

:42:42.:42:43.

in the years and there will be more in the years and there will be more

:42:43.:42:44.

financial burden on the health financial burden on the health

:42:44.:42:45.

financial burden on the health service and it will affect people's

:42:45.:42:48.

service and it will affect people's service and it will affect people's

:42:48.:42:49.

service and it will affect people's lives. This used to be classed as an

:42:49.:42:50.

lives. This used to be classed as an lives. This used to be classed as an

:42:50.:42:51.

industrial disease and I've lost industrial disease and I've lost

:42:51.:42:54.

many friends through mesothelioma. many friends through mesothelioma.

:42:54.:42:55.

many friends through mesothelioma. many friends through mesothelioma.

:42:55.:42:56.

It's one of the most horrible deaths It's one of the most horrible deaths

:42:56.:42:56.

It's one of the most horrible deaths It's one of the most horrible deaths

:42:56.:42:58.

that you can imagine and I don't that you can imagine and I don't

:42:58.:42:58.

that you can imagine and I don't want to see children or teachers

:42:58.:43:01.

want to see children or teachers want to see children or teachers

:43:01.:43:02.

going through this. Schools are told going through this. Schools are told

:43:02.:43:03.

going through this. Schools are told going through this. Schools are told

:43:03.:43:04.

to have plans in place, to know to have plans in place, to know

:43:04.:43:05.

to have plans in place, to know to have plans in place, to know

:43:05.:43:07.

where it is and how to tackle it. where it is and how to tackle it.

:43:07.:43:08.

where it is and how to tackle it. The problem is getting rid of

:43:08.:43:10.

The problem is getting rid of The problem is getting rid of

:43:10.:43:11.

damaged asbestos can be costly as damaged asbestos can be costly as

:43:11.:43:15.

damaged asbestos can be costly as this headteacher explains. What we

:43:15.:43:16.

this headteacher explains. What we this headteacher explains. What we

:43:16.:43:17.

this headteacher explains. What we spend on the removal is at the

:43:17.:43:18.

spend on the removal is at the spend on the removal is at the

:43:18.:43:20.

expense of teaching staff, learning expense of teaching staff, learning

:43:20.:43:23.

expense of teaching staff, learning expense of teaching staff, learning

:43:23.:43:24.

resources and so on. Is the �100,000 resources and so on. Is the �100,000

:43:24.:43:26.

resources and so on. Is the �100,000 figure, what does that equate to?

:43:26.:43:27.

figure, what does that equate to? figure, what does that equate to?

:43:27.:43:29.

figure, what does that equate to? That is roughly two and a half

:43:29.:43:30.

That is roughly two and a half That is roughly two and a half

:43:30.:43:34.

members of the teaching staff. members of the teaching staff.

:43:34.:43:35.

members of the teaching staff. asked the School's Minister and West

:43:35.:43:36.

asked the School's Minister and West asked the School's Minister and West

:43:36.:43:37.

asked the School's Minister and West Country MP, David Laws, if he would

:43:37.:43:38.

Country MP, David Laws, if he would Country MP, David Laws, if he would

:43:38.:43:39.

come on and explain the government come on and explain the government

:43:39.:43:41.

come on and explain the government 's policy. He declined to be

:43:41.:43:42.

's policy. He declined to be 's policy. He declined to be

:43:42.:43:43.

interviewed but in a statement his interviewed but in a statement his

:43:43.:43:44.

interviewed but in a statement his interviewed but in a statement his

:43:44.:43:45.

office told us, we are clear that office told us, we are clear that

:43:45.:43:47.

office told us, we are clear that office told us, we are clear that

:43:47.:43:48.

the health of pupils and staff is the health of pupils and staff is

:43:48.:43:50.

the health of pupils and staff is paramount. We are working with the

:43:50.:43:51.

paramount. We are working with the paramount. We are working with the

:43:51.:43:51.

Health and Safety Executive to make Health and Safety Executive to make

:43:52.:43:53.

Health and Safety Executive to make sure asbestos is tackled properly.

:43:53.:43:57.

sure asbestos is tackled properly. sure asbestos is tackled properly.

:43:57.:43:59.

Before Maggie's death, she won Before Maggie's death, she won

:43:59.:44:00.

compensation from her former compensation from her former

:44:00.:44:01.

compensation from her former employer. Alan simply hopes her

:44:01.:44:02.

employer. Alan simply hopes her employer. Alan simply hopes her

:44:02.:44:04.

employer. Alan simply hopes her death warrant has been in vain.

:44:04.:44:08.

death warrant has been in vain. death warrant has been in vain.

:44:08.:44:09.

unfortunate that she was unlucky unfortunate that she was unlucky

:44:09.:44:10.

unfortunate that she was unlucky enough to be in that particular

:44:10.:44:12.

enough to be in that particular enough to be in that particular

:44:12.:44:13.

enough to be in that particular place, in that particular job for so

:44:13.:44:15.

place, in that particular job for so place, in that particular job for so

:44:15.:44:16.

long. If those lessons are learned long. If those lessons are learned

:44:16.:44:18.

long. If those lessons are learned and people do something about it

:44:18.:44:19.

and people do something about it and people do something about it

:44:19.:44:20.

and people do something about it then Maggie would be happy and I

:44:20.:44:23.

then Maggie would be happy and I would certainly be happy.

:44:23.:44:24.

would certainly be happy. Public-health experts say teachers

:44:24.:44:25.

Public-health experts say teachers Public-health experts say teachers

:44:25.:44:28.

Public-health experts say teachers aren't at a higher risk as long as

:44:28.:44:29.

aren't at a higher risk as long as aren't at a higher risk as long as

:44:29.:44:32.

asbestos is dealt with properly. The asbestos is dealt with properly. The

:44:32.:44:34.

asbestos is dealt with properly. The question is who pays and when?

:44:34.:44:35.

question is who pays and when? question is who pays and when?

:44:35.:44:38.

question is who pays and when? Joining us today is Michael Lees who

:44:38.:44:39.

Joining us today is Michael Lees who Joining us today is Michael Lees who

:44:39.:44:40.

lost his wife to mesothelioma, a lost his wife to mesothelioma, a

:44:40.:44:42.

lost his wife to mesothelioma, a rare form of cancer caused by

:44:42.:44:43.

rare form of cancer caused by rare form of cancer caused by

:44:43.:44:44.

rare form of cancer caused by exposure to asbestos. He is part of

:44:44.:44:45.

exposure to asbestos. He is part of exposure to asbestos. He is part of

:44:45.:44:46.

exposure to asbestos. He is part of a campaign group to get all asbestos

:44:46.:44:47.

a campaign group to get all asbestos a campaign group to get all asbestos

:44:47.:44:48.

removed safely from schools. Thank removed safely from schools. Thank

:44:48.:44:51.

removed safely from schools. Thank removed safely from schools. Thank

:44:51.:44:52.

you for talking to us today. Sadly, you for talking to us today. Sadly,

:44:52.:44:55.

you for talking to us today. Sadly, you for talking to us today. Sadly,

:44:55.:44:56.

you lost your wife, what happened? you lost your wife, what happened?

:44:56.:44:57.

you lost your wife, what happened? you lost your wife, what happened?

:44:57.:44:58.

did indeed. My wife was a teacher did indeed. My wife was a teacher

:44:58.:45:00.

did indeed. My wife was a teacher did indeed. My wife was a teacher

:45:00.:45:02.

and she taught for 30 years in a and she taught for 30 years in a

:45:02.:45:03.

and she taught for 30 years in a variety of schools. She was exposed

:45:03.:45:05.

variety of schools. She was exposed variety of schools. She was exposed

:45:05.:45:06.

to asbestos in those schools and to asbestos in those schools and

:45:07.:45:08.

to asbestos in those schools and very sadly, she died of

:45:08.:45:11.

very sadly, she died of very sadly, she died of

:45:11.:45:12.

mesothelioma. The Health and Safety mesothelioma. The Health and Safety

:45:12.:45:13.

mesothelioma. The Health and Safety Executive says in a statement that

:45:13.:45:14.

Executive says in a statement that Executive says in a statement that

:45:14.:45:16.

if asbestos is managed and if asbestos is managed and

:45:16.:45:17.

if asbestos is managed and if asbestos is managed and

:45:17.:45:22.

maintained, it does not pose a risk maintained, it does not pose a risk

:45:22.:45:23.

maintained, it does not pose a risk maintained, it does not pose a risk

:45:23.:45:25.

their health. We agree that if it is their health. We agree that if it is

:45:25.:45:29.

their health. We agree that if it is their health. We agree that if it is

:45:29.:45:30.

managed, that is true. In a school, managed, that is true. In a school,

:45:31.:45:32.

managed, that is true. In a school, managed, that is true. In a school,

:45:32.:45:33.

you have children where as in an you have children where as in an

:45:33.:45:33.

you have children where as in an office you don't have thousands of

:45:34.:45:34.

office you don't have thousands of office you don't have thousands of

:45:34.:45:38.

children around the place and children around the place and

:45:38.:45:39.

children around the place and although you can tell people there

:45:39.:45:41.

although you can tell people there although you can tell people there

:45:41.:45:42.

is asbestos in the office, you is asbestos in the office, you

:45:42.:45:43.

is asbestos in the office, you cannot tell the children that. If

:45:43.:45:44.

cannot tell the children that. If cannot tell the children that. If

:45:44.:45:45.

cannot tell the children that. If you do tell the children that, the

:45:45.:45:46.

you do tell the children that, the you do tell the children that, the

:45:46.:45:47.

you do tell the children that, the chances are that one or two of them

:45:47.:45:48.

chances are that one or two of them chances are that one or two of them

:45:48.:45:51.

chances are that one or two of them will knock into a wall. How much

:45:51.:45:53.

will knock into a wall. How much will knock into a wall. How much

:45:53.:45:54.

would this cleanup cost? That's a would this cleanup cost? That's a

:45:54.:45:55.

would this cleanup cost? That's a problem. Nobody knows and we have

:45:55.:45:56.

problem. Nobody knows and we have problem. Nobody knows and we have

:45:56.:45:57.

problem. Nobody knows and we have asked the government to carry out an

:45:57.:45:59.

asked the government to carry out an asked the government to carry out an

:45:59.:46:01.

asked the government to carry out an audit to find out the extent of

:46:01.:46:02.

audit to find out the extent of audit to find out the extent of

:46:02.:46:03.

asbestos in the schools and asbestos in the schools and

:46:03.:46:05.

asbestos in the schools and therefore, they can make financial

:46:05.:46:07.

therefore, they can make financial therefore, they can make financial

:46:07.:46:08.

forecasts. They can prioritise the forecasts. They can prioritise the

:46:08.:46:10.

forecasts. They can prioritise the most dangerous schools, but the

:46:10.:46:11.

most dangerous schools, but the government, although they are

:46:11.:46:13.

government, although they are government, although they are

:46:13.:46:13.

carrying out a review of the carrying out a review of the

:46:13.:46:16.

carrying out a review of the condition of school buildings, the

:46:16.:46:17.

condition of school buildings, the condition of school buildings, the

:46:17.:46:19.

condition of school buildings, the one item that has been excluded is

:46:19.:46:20.

one item that has been excluded is asbestos which is totally

:46:20.:46:21.

asbestos which is totally asbestos which is totally

:46:21.:46:24.

illogical. If you are rewiring a illogical. If you are rewiring a

:46:24.:46:25.

illogical. If you are rewiring a illogical. If you are rewiring a

:46:25.:46:27.

school, you have two get rid of the school, you have two get rid of the

:46:27.:46:28.

school, you have two get rid of the asbestos first. I cannot tell you

:46:28.:46:30.

asbestos first. I cannot tell you asbestos first. I cannot tell you

:46:30.:46:32.

asbestos first. I cannot tell you how much of a cost. Can the expense

:46:32.:46:34.

how much of a cost. Can the expense how much of a cost. Can the expense

:46:34.:46:36.

be justified against the risk which be justified against the risk which

:46:36.:46:38.

be justified against the risk which be justified against the risk which

:46:38.:46:39.

is pretty small? I dispute the fact is pretty small? I dispute the fact

:46:39.:46:42.

is pretty small? I dispute the fact is pretty small? I dispute the fact

:46:42.:46:42.

that the risk is small. Since 1980, that the risk is small. Since 1980,

:46:43.:46:48.

that the risk is small. Since 1980, people like my wife and Maggie,

:46:48.:46:49.

people like my wife and Maggie, people like my wife and Maggie,

:46:49.:46:51.

269, have died of mesothelioma. 269, have died of mesothelioma.

:46:51.:46:52.

269, have died of mesothelioma. 269, have died of mesothelioma.

:46:52.:46:53.

There were three a year dying in There were three a year dying in

:46:53.:46:54.

There were three a year dying in There were three a year dying in

:46:54.:46:59.

1980 and there are 14 a year 1980 and there are 14 a year

:46:59.:47:00.

1980 and there are 14 a year nowadays. Many have died of

:47:00.:47:02.

nowadays. Many have died of nowadays. Many have died of

:47:02.:47:03.

mesothelioma. In America, they made mesothelioma. In America, they made

:47:04.:47:06.

mesothelioma. In America, they made a calculation into asbestos and made

:47:06.:47:09.

a calculation into asbestos and made a calculation into asbestos and made

:47:09.:47:11.

an assessment that every teacher and an assessment that every teacher and

:47:11.:47:12.

an assessment that every teacher and support staff 's death of

:47:12.:47:14.

support staff 's death of mesothelioma, nine children would

:47:14.:47:15.

mesothelioma, nine children would mesothelioma, nine children would

:47:15.:47:17.

subsequently died. If you look at subsequently died. If you look at

:47:17.:47:17.

subsequently died. If you look at subsequently died. If you look at

:47:17.:47:19.

the figure in our country, it means the figure in our country, it means

:47:19.:47:22.

the figure in our country, it means the figure in our country, it means

:47:22.:47:23.

more than 2000 pupils have died of more than 2000 pupils have died of

:47:23.:47:24.

more than 2000 pupils have died of more than 2000 pupils have died of

:47:24.:47:25.

exposure in schools. That is not a exposure in schools. That is not a

:47:25.:47:26.

exposure in schools. That is not a exposure in schools. That is not a

:47:26.:47:27.

low risk. Thank you for joining us. low risk. Thank you for joining us.

:47:27.:47:30.

low risk. Thank you for joining us. low risk. Thank you for joining us.

:47:30.:47:31.

Let's open the debate to the people Let's open the debate to the people

:47:31.:47:32.

Let's open the debate to the people here. Clare, where would this come

:47:32.:47:33.

here. Clare, where would this come here. Clare, where would this come

:47:33.:47:34.

here. Clare, where would this come in your list of priorities if you

:47:34.:47:35.

in your list of priorities if you in your list of priorities if you

:47:35.:47:37.

in your list of priorities if you were in charge of public spending?

:47:37.:47:39.

were in charge of public spending? were in charge of public spending?

:47:39.:47:40.

think, as Michael said, you are think, as Michael said, you are

:47:40.:47:41.

think, as Michael said, you are talking about lives that are risk

:47:41.:47:43.

talking about lives that are risk talking about lives that are risk

:47:43.:47:45.

here will stop mesothelioma is a here will stop mesothelioma is a

:47:45.:47:49.

here will stop mesothelioma is a ghastly disease for people and a

:47:49.:47:49.

ghastly disease for people and a ghastly disease for people and a

:47:50.:47:52.

dreadful death for families to go dreadful death for families to go

:47:52.:47:55.

dreadful death for families to go through. At the time, that the

:47:55.:47:58.

through. At the time, that the through. At the time, that the

:47:58.:47:59.

government took over, there was the government took over, there was the

:47:59.:48:00.

building schools for future building schools for future

:48:00.:48:02.

building schools for future programme which was going to

:48:02.:48:03.

programme which was going to programme which was going to

:48:03.:48:05.

refurbish schools and part of that refurbish schools and part of that

:48:05.:48:08.

refurbish schools and part of that would have been the replacement of

:48:08.:48:09.

would have been the replacement of would have been the replacement of

:48:09.:48:11.

asbestos in a large number of asbestos in a large number of

:48:11.:48:12.

asbestos in a large number of asbestos in a large number of

:48:12.:48:13.

schools that we talked about in the schools that we talked about in the

:48:13.:48:14.

schools that we talked about in the report earlier on. It's a question

:48:15.:48:16.

report earlier on. It's a question report earlier on. It's a question

:48:17.:48:18.

of priorities. Robert, in your of priorities. Robert, in your

:48:18.:48:19.

of priorities. Robert, in your constituency, this disease is well

:48:19.:48:19.

constituency, this disease is well constituency, this disease is well

:48:19.:48:22.

known because of the Swindon railway known because of the Swindon railway

:48:22.:48:26.

known because of the Swindon railway known because of the Swindon railway

:48:26.:48:26.

works. What's your take on this? works. What's your take on this?

:48:26.:48:29.

works. What's your take on this? works. What's your take on this?

:48:29.:48:30.

you say, there is a personal feeling you say, there is a personal feeling

:48:30.:48:31.

you say, there is a personal feeling in Swindon about mesothelioma and

:48:31.:48:33.

in Swindon about mesothelioma and in Swindon about mesothelioma and

:48:33.:48:34.

the effects on it. In Swindon the effects on it. In Swindon

:48:34.:48:35.

the effects on it. In Swindon the effects on it. In Swindon

:48:35.:48:37.

schools, there has been a lot of schools, there has been a lot of

:48:37.:48:38.

schools, there has been a lot of schools, there has been a lot of

:48:38.:48:39.

good work done to remove it from good work done to remove it from

:48:39.:48:41.

good work done to remove it from older schools. Today I was talking

:48:41.:48:42.

older schools. Today I was talking older schools. Today I was talking

:48:42.:48:43.

older schools. Today I was talking to a senior officer from my local

:48:43.:48:43.

to a senior officer from my local to a senior officer from my local

:48:43.:48:45.

to a senior officer from my local authority and I've asked him to look

:48:45.:48:45.

authority and I've asked him to look authority and I've asked him to look

:48:45.:48:46.

authority and I've asked him to look again at the nature of the problem

:48:46.:48:48.

again at the nature of the problem again at the nature of the problem

:48:48.:48:49.

again at the nature of the problem and if it still exists in Swindon.

:48:49.:48:50.

and if it still exists in Swindon. and if it still exists in Swindon.

:48:50.:48:53.

As everyone agrees, if it is As everyone agrees, if it is

:48:53.:48:53.

As everyone agrees, if it is properly managed, then schools can

:48:53.:48:56.

properly managed, then schools can properly managed, then schools can

:48:56.:48:57.

properly managed, then schools can remain safe places to work in. Mr

:48:57.:48:58.

remain safe places to work in. Mr remain safe places to work in. Mr

:48:58.:49:00.

remain safe places to work in. Mr Lees did say that if it was properly

:49:00.:49:01.

Lees did say that if it was properly Lees did say that if it was properly

:49:01.:49:02.

managed then the risk was minimised managed then the risk was minimised

:49:02.:49:03.

managed then the risk was minimised managed then the risk was minimised

:49:03.:49:04.

but there is still a risk and I but there is still a risk and I

:49:04.:49:05.

but there is still a risk and I but there is still a risk and I

:49:05.:49:06.

think all of us would agree that think all of us would agree that

:49:06.:49:08.

think all of us would agree that think all of us would agree that

:49:08.:49:09.

removal of that risk has to be a removal of that risk has to be a

:49:09.:49:11.

removal of that risk has to be a removal of that risk has to be a

:49:11.:49:11.

priority. I think it's right to say priority. I think it's right to say

:49:11.:49:15.

priority. I think it's right to say that with new capital funding

:49:15.:49:16.

that with new capital funding programmes and other resources,

:49:16.:49:18.

programmes and other resources, programmes and other resources,

:49:18.:49:20.

there are funds available that local there are funds available that local

:49:20.:49:21.

there are funds available that local authorities and academies can apply

:49:21.:49:22.

authorities and academies can apply authorities and academies can apply

:49:22.:49:23.

authorities and academies can apply authorities and academies can apply

:49:23.:49:24.

for, and I will do my part to make for, and I will do my part to make

:49:24.:49:26.

for, and I will do my part to make for, and I will do my part to make

:49:26.:49:28.

sure asbestos becomes a thing of the sure asbestos becomes a thing of the

:49:28.:49:29.

sure asbestos becomes a thing of the sure asbestos becomes a thing of the

:49:29.:49:29.

past. You are both agreeing that the past. You are both agreeing that the

:49:29.:49:31.

past. You are both agreeing that the government should spend money on

:49:31.:49:31.

government should spend money on government should spend money on

:49:31.:49:35.

this even a bit costs teachers? this even a bit costs teachers?

:49:35.:49:36.

this even a bit costs teachers? Where there is a clear risk,

:49:36.:49:45.

Where there is a clear risk, Where there is a clear risk,

:49:45.:49:45.

absolutely. The problem is that absolutely. The problem is that

:49:45.:49:46.

absolutely. The problem is that schools will need refurbishment at

:49:46.:49:47.

schools will need refurbishment at schools will need refurbishment at

:49:47.:49:49.

schools will need refurbishment at this point so if they are going in

:49:49.:49:51.

this point so if they are going in this point so if they are going in

:49:51.:49:52.

this point so if they are going in to rewire a school, for example, and

:49:52.:49:53.

to rewire a school, for example, and to rewire a school, for example, and

:49:53.:49:54.

they discovered there is asbestos, they discovered there is asbestos,

:49:54.:49:55.

they discovered there is asbestos, they discovered there is asbestos,

:49:55.:49:56.

they have to deal with it then they have to deal with it then

:49:56.:49:57.

they have to deal with it then rather than having a full

:49:57.:49:59.

rather than having a full rather than having a full

:49:59.:50:02.

assessment. One corner of the West assessment. One corner of the West

:50:02.:50:03.

assessment. One corner of the West Country is getting Britain's biggest

:50:03.:50:06.

Country is getting Britain's biggest Country is getting Britain's biggest

:50:06.:50:07.

fall in council tax. Several fall in council tax. Several

:50:07.:50:07.

fall in council tax. Several authorities are pushing up charges.

:50:07.:50:11.

authorities are pushing up charges. authorities are pushing up charges.

:50:11.:50:12.

Ministers handed out bouquets to the Ministers handed out bouquets to the

:50:12.:50:20.

Ministers handed out bouquets to the Cotswolds for their cuts. The bills

:50:20.:50:22.

Cotswolds for their cuts. The bills Cotswolds for their cuts. The bills

:50:22.:50:23.

will soon be printed. More will soon be printed. More

:50:23.:50:24.

will soon be printed. More authorities than ever have defied

:50:24.:50:25.

authorities than ever have defied authorities than ever have defied

:50:25.:50:27.

this government is pushed for a this government is pushed for a

:50:27.:50:28.

this government is pushed for a freeze. Few want praise for cutting

:50:28.:50:31.

freeze. Few want praise for cutting freeze. Few want praise for cutting

:50:31.:50:32.

freeze. Few want praise for cutting charges. We are clear that we want

:50:32.:50:33.

charges. We are clear that we want charges. We are clear that we want

:50:33.:50:36.

local councils to think about local councils to think about

:50:36.:50:37.

hard-working taxpayers and either hard-working taxpayers and either

:50:37.:50:39.

hard-working taxpayers and either hard-working taxpayers and either

:50:39.:50:42.

freeze or reduce tax. It can be freeze or reduce tax. It can be

:50:42.:50:42.

freeze or reduce tax. It can be done. Cotswold make savings by

:50:43.:50:45.

done. Cotswold make savings by done. Cotswold make savings by

:50:45.:50:45.

sharing staff and services with sharing staff and services with

:50:45.:50:47.

neighbouring councils. Ministers neighbouring councils. Ministers

:50:47.:50:48.

neighbouring councils. Ministers neighbouring councils. Ministers

:50:48.:50:49.

want this done by others such as want this done by others such as

:50:49.:50:50.

want this done by others such as West Somerset which is putting up

:50:50.:50:52.

West Somerset which is putting up West Somerset which is putting up

:50:52.:50:55.

West Somerset which is putting up its yearly charge by �5. So too is

:50:55.:50:55.

its yearly charge by �5. So too is neighbouring Sedgemoor District

:50:55.:50:58.

neighbouring Sedgemoor District neighbouring Sedgemoor District

:50:58.:50:59.

Council. Also raising tax are North Council. Also raising tax are North

:50:59.:51:00.

Council. Also raising tax are North Council. Also raising tax are North

:51:00.:51:00.

Somerset by one and a half %, and Somerset by one and a half %, and

:51:01.:51:04.

Somerset by one and a half %, and Somerset by one and a half %, and

:51:04.:51:06.

Bristol by 2%. We are a lean Bristol by 2%. We are a lean

:51:06.:51:06.

Bristol by 2%. We are a lean Bristol by 2%. We are a lean

:51:06.:51:07.

council. Life is not easy but what council. Life is not easy but what

:51:07.:51:08.

council. Life is not easy but what council. Life is not easy but what

:51:08.:51:10.

council. Life is not easy but what we have tried to do is make sure we

:51:10.:51:11.

we have tried to do is make sure we we have tried to do is make sure we

:51:11.:51:13.

have is cut any services. Others have is cut any services. Others

:51:13.:51:15.

have is cut any services. Others have tried to show ministers they

:51:15.:51:15.

have tried to show ministers they are efficient. North Somerset's

:51:15.:51:18.

are efficient. North Somerset's Conservative leader. The Secretary

:51:18.:51:19.

Conservative leader. The Secretary Conservative leader. The Secretary

:51:19.:51:20.

of State for local government to of State for local government to

:51:20.:51:21.

of State for local government to of State for local government to

:51:21.:51:22.

come and see for himself. He told come and see for himself. He told

:51:22.:51:23.

come and see for himself. He told Eric Pickles that they lose out

:51:23.:51:25.

Eric Pickles that they lose out Eric Pickles that they lose out

:51:25.:51:26.

Eric Pickles that they lose out because their council tax is low the

:51:26.:51:28.

because their council tax is low the because their council tax is low the

:51:28.:51:30.

most. It's frustrating. I have many most. It's frustrating. I have many

:51:30.:51:33.

meetings with ministers and meetings with ministers and

:51:33.:51:33.

meetings with ministers and unfortunately, we are all treated

:51:33.:51:36.

unfortunately, we are all treated unfortunately, we are all treated

:51:36.:51:38.

exactly the same. Those successful exactly the same. Those successful

:51:38.:51:38.

exactly the same. Those successful councils that have done what is

:51:38.:51:40.

councils that have done what is councils that have done what is

:51:40.:51:43.

expected and reduced costs year expected and reduced costs year

:51:43.:51:44.

expected and reduced costs year expected and reduced costs year

:51:44.:51:47.

after year then seem to get no after year then seem to get no

:51:47.:51:48.

after year then seem to get no after year then seem to get no

:51:48.:51:49.

recognition when an order is put out recognition when an order is put out

:51:49.:51:51.

recognition when an order is put out recognition when an order is put out

:51:51.:51:51.

for all councils to do the same and for all councils to do the same and

:51:51.:51:53.

for all councils to do the same and reduce things further. There is one

:51:53.:51:54.

reduce things further. There is one reduce things further. There is one

:51:54.:51:55.

thing on which central and local thing on which central and local

:51:55.:51:56.

thing on which central and local government agree, the years to come

:51:56.:51:59.

government agree, the years to come government agree, the years to come

:51:59.:52:00.

will be tougher. Here is the will be tougher. Here is the

:52:01.:52:02.

will be tougher. Here is the outgoing leader of Swindon borough

:52:02.:52:03.

outgoing leader of Swindon borough outgoing leader of Swindon borough

:52:03.:52:05.

outgoing leader of Swindon borough council, man cap. Rod Bluh. Why are

:52:05.:52:08.

council, man cap. Rod Bluh. Why are council, man cap. Rod Bluh. Why are

:52:08.:52:09.

council, man cap. Rod Bluh. Why are you leaving us? There is always a

:52:09.:52:10.

you leaving us? There is always a you leaving us? There is always a

:52:10.:52:11.

you leaving us? There is always a time to make the move. I have been

:52:11.:52:12.

time to make the move. I have been time to make the move. I have been

:52:12.:52:13.

leader for seven years and was leader for seven years and was

:52:13.:52:16.

leader for seven years and was deputy leader before that. I'm not

:52:16.:52:17.

deputy leader before that. I'm not deputy leader before that. I'm not

:52:17.:52:18.

getting any younger and need to getting any younger and need to

:52:18.:52:19.

getting any younger and need to think about the future. An

:52:19.:52:23.

think about the future. An think about the future. An

:52:23.:52:24.

opportunity came along. Let's talk opportunity came along. Let's talk

:52:24.:52:26.

opportunity came along. Let's talk about the council tax. You have

:52:26.:52:30.

about the council tax. You have about the council tax. You have

:52:30.:52:30.

about the council tax. You have frozen yours? We have. We had the

:52:31.:52:31.

frozen yours? We have. We had the frozen yours? We have. We had the

:52:31.:52:32.

frozen yours? We have. We had the frozen yours? We have. We had the

:52:32.:52:34.

freedom to put it up but it was a freedom to put it up but it was a

:52:34.:52:35.

freedom to put it up but it was a balanced judgement call and I think

:52:35.:52:35.

balanced judgement call and I think balanced judgement call and I think

:52:36.:52:36.

balanced judgement call and I think it would've been a good idea to put

:52:36.:52:37.

it would've been a good idea to put it would've been a good idea to put

:52:38.:52:40.

it would've been a good idea to put the council tax up but, you know,

:52:40.:52:41.

the council tax up but, you know, the council tax up but, you know,

:52:41.:52:42.

it's about balancing that between it's about balancing that between

:52:42.:52:46.

it's about balancing that between the effects on residents. I would

:52:46.:52:49.

the effects on residents. I would the effects on residents. I would

:52:49.:52:51.

echo virtually every word that Nigel echo virtually every word that Nigel

:52:51.:52:52.

echo virtually every word that Nigel echo virtually every word that Nigel

:52:52.:52:53.

Jess said. All councils are not in a Jess said. All councils are not in a

:52:53.:52:54.

Jess said. All councils are not in a similar position and it's been clear

:52:54.:52:55.

similar position and it's been clear similar position and it's been clear

:52:55.:52:57.

since the beginning that some are since the beginning that some are

:52:57.:52:58.

since the beginning that some are leaner than others. We've done

:52:58.:52:59.

leaner than others. We've done leaner than others. We've done

:52:59.:53:04.

everything we needed to do. Locally everything we needed to do. Locally

:53:04.:53:05.

everything we needed to do. Locally elected and locally in countable

:53:05.:53:05.

elected and locally in countable elected and locally in countable

:53:05.:53:06.

elected and locally in countable budge or hands are tied by what Eric

:53:06.:53:07.

budge or hands are tied by what Eric budge or hands are tied by what Eric

:53:07.:53:08.

Pickles and central government says Pickles and central government says

:53:08.:53:12.

Pickles and central government says Pickles and central government says

:53:12.:53:13.

about what you can charge people. about what you can charge people.

:53:13.:53:13.

about what you can charge people. believe in localism and believe that

:53:13.:53:14.

believe in localism and believe that believe in localism and believe that

:53:14.:53:15.

believe in localism and believe that it should be up to the local

:53:15.:53:17.

it should be up to the local it should be up to the local

:53:17.:53:19.

government. If you want a put government. If you want a put

:53:19.:53:21.

government. If you want a put government. If you want a put

:53:21.:53:22.

council tax up by more than 2% council tax up by more than 2%

:53:22.:53:23.

council tax up by more than 2% before you have to have a

:53:23.:53:24.

before you have to have a before you have to have a

:53:24.:53:25.

before you have to have a referendum, should you be free to do

:53:25.:53:27.

referendum, should you be free to do referendum, should you be free to do

:53:27.:53:28.

referendum, should you be free to do so? I think we should. Whether we

:53:28.:53:28.

so? I think we should. Whether we so? I think we should. Whether we

:53:28.:53:30.

so? I think we should. Whether we want to go to the expense of a

:53:30.:53:31.

want to go to the expense of a want to go to the expense of a

:53:31.:53:32.

referendum is a different issue. I referendum is a different issue. I

:53:32.:53:33.

referendum is a different issue. I referendum is a different issue. I

:53:33.:53:33.

referendum is a different issue. I think the cap is too low and I think

:53:33.:53:34.

think the cap is too low and I think think the cap is too low and I think

:53:34.:53:35.

think the cap is too low and I think it should be up to councillors and

:53:35.:53:36.

it should be up to councillors and it should be up to councillors and

:53:36.:53:37.

their residents about what is right their residents about what is right

:53:37.:53:39.

their residents about what is right their residents about what is right

:53:39.:53:40.

for their local place. We are not in for their local place. We are not in

:53:40.:53:41.

for their local place. We are not in for their local place. We are not in

:53:41.:53:42.

an equal position and it's not just an equal position and it's not just

:53:42.:53:43.

an equal position and it's not just an equal position and it's not just

:53:43.:53:43.

the austerity cuts we have to deal the austerity cuts we have to deal

:53:43.:53:46.

the austerity cuts we have to deal the austerity cuts we have to deal

:53:46.:53:47.

with. We have to deal with massive with. We have to deal with massive

:53:47.:53:49.

with. We have to deal with massive rise in demand. Would you like

:53:49.:53:50.

rise in demand. Would you like rise in demand. Would you like

:53:50.:53:52.

central government off your back? central government off your back?

:53:52.:53:53.

central government off your back? believe in localism and less

:53:53.:53:54.

believe in localism and less interference from government would

:53:54.:53:56.

interference from government would interference from government would

:53:56.:53:59.

interference from government would be a better thing. Why does central

:53:59.:54:00.

be a better thing. Why does central government boss local authorities

:54:00.:54:03.

government boss local authorities government boss local authorities

:54:03.:54:04.

around? I think we all shared around? I think we all shared

:54:04.:54:05.

around? I think we all shared concern about the cost of living.

:54:05.:54:07.

concern about the cost of living. concern about the cost of living.

:54:07.:54:09.

concern about the cost of living. Times are tough, it incomes are not

:54:09.:54:10.

Times are tough, it incomes are not Times are tough, it incomes are not

:54:10.:54:11.

Times are tough, it incomes are not going up but prices are. Costs are

:54:11.:54:13.

going up but prices are. Costs are going up but prices are. Costs are

:54:13.:54:14.

going up but prices are. Costs are going up for people. One of the big

:54:14.:54:16.

going up for people. One of the big going up for people. One of the big

:54:16.:54:16.

going up for people. One of the big costs for people is council tax and

:54:16.:54:17.

costs for people is council tax and costs for people is council tax and

:54:17.:54:18.

costs for people is council tax and costs for people is council tax and

:54:18.:54:19.

I want to pay tribute to Rod and his I want to pay tribute to Rod and his

:54:19.:54:20.

I want to pay tribute to Rod and his team because they have frozen

:54:20.:54:21.

team because they have frozen team because they have frozen

:54:21.:54:22.

team because they have frozen council tax for the last couple of

:54:22.:54:23.

council tax for the last couple of council tax for the last couple of

:54:23.:54:24.

years and before that delivered low years and before that delivered low

:54:24.:54:26.

years and before that delivered low rises. A few years before that,

:54:26.:54:28.

rises. A few years before that, rises. A few years before that,

:54:28.:54:29.

people in Swindon were facing rises people in Swindon were facing rises

:54:29.:54:30.

people in Swindon were facing rises people in Swindon were facing rises

:54:30.:54:32.

people in Swindon were facing rises of 15 or 20% in one year. That was

:54:32.:54:35.

of 15 or 20% in one year. That was of 15 or 20% in one year. That was

:54:35.:54:36.

unacceptable and its huge burden on unacceptable and its huge burden on

:54:36.:54:39.

unacceptable and its huge burden on families. Ibuprofen that, wide can

:54:39.:54:40.

families. Ibuprofen that, wide can families. Ibuprofen that, wide can

:54:41.:54:41.

families. Ibuprofen that, wide can that not be allowed? I would say

:54:41.:54:42.

that not be allowed? I would say that not be allowed? I would say

:54:42.:54:44.

that the principle of having a that the principle of having a

:54:44.:54:45.

that the principle of having a referendum would give a direct say

:54:45.:54:47.

referendum would give a direct say referendum would give a direct say

:54:47.:54:49.

referendum would give a direct say for the public on council tax rises.

:54:49.:54:50.

for the public on council tax rises. for the public on council tax rises.

:54:50.:54:51.

People vote in elections for a People vote in elections for a

:54:51.:54:54.

People vote in elections for a People vote in elections for a

:54:54.:54:55.

variety of reasons... I know you are variety of reasons... I know you are

:54:55.:54:58.

variety of reasons... I know you are variety of reasons... I know you are

:54:59.:55:00.

mates and all that. We have worked mates and all that. We have worked

:55:00.:55:00.

mates and all that. We have worked very closely and I believe we

:55:00.:55:02.

very closely and I believe we very closely and I believe we

:55:02.:55:03.

very closely and I believe we localism but at the same time, it

:55:03.:55:04.

localism but at the same time, it localism but at the same time, it

:55:04.:55:05.

would be irresponsible for the would be irresponsible for the

:55:05.:55:05.

would be irresponsible for the government to ignore the reality of

:55:05.:55:08.

government to ignore the reality of government to ignore the reality of

:55:08.:55:09.

life. Claire, due think the council life. Claire, due think the council

:55:09.:55:11.

life. Claire, due think the council should be allowed to charge what

:55:11.:55:13.

should be allowed to charge what should be allowed to charge what

:55:13.:55:14.

they want without asking Eric they want without asking Eric

:55:14.:55:15.

they want without asking Eric they want without asking Eric

:55:15.:55:18.

Pickles? Yes. I think I would echo a Pickles? Yes. I think I would echo a

:55:18.:55:19.

Pickles? Yes. I think I would echo a Pickles? Yes. I think I would echo a

:55:19.:55:20.

lot of Rod's points. There is a lot of Rod's points. There is a

:55:20.:55:26.

referendum on local governments. referendum on local governments.

:55:26.:55:27.

referendum on local governments. referendum on local governments.

:55:27.:55:29.

Also, what you are looking at here, Also, what you are looking at here,

:55:29.:55:31.

Also, what you are looking at here, is local councils being caught

:55:31.:55:32.

is local councils being caught is local councils being caught

:55:32.:55:33.

is local councils being caught between the devil and the deep blue

:55:33.:55:35.

between the devil and the deep blue between the devil and the deep blue

:55:35.:55:37.

sea. They are having cuts handed sea. They are having cuts handed

:55:37.:55:38.

sea. They are having cuts handed sea. They are having cuts handed

:55:38.:55:39.

down from up high with Eric Pickles, down from up high with Eric Pickles,

:55:39.:55:40.

down from up high with Eric Pickles, whilst having increased strain on

:55:40.:55:41.

whilst having increased strain on whilst having increased strain on

:55:41.:55:43.

the services they are trying to the services they are trying to

:55:43.:55:46.

the services they are trying to offer. Cuts, raising council taxes,

:55:46.:55:47.

offer. Cuts, raising council taxes, offer. Cuts, raising council taxes,

:55:47.:55:48.

offer. Cuts, raising council taxes, but they are in a lock through

:55:48.:55:50.

but they are in a lock through but they are in a lock through

:55:50.:55:51.

central government as well. We wish central government as well. We wish

:55:51.:55:54.

central government as well. We wish central government as well. We wish

:55:54.:55:56.

you well in your new career. You are you well in your new career. You are

:55:56.:55:56.

you well in your new career. You are you well in your new career. You are

:55:56.:55:58.

off to do other things. I will miss off to do other things. I will miss

:55:58.:55:59.

off to do other things. I will miss off to do other things. I will miss

:55:59.:56:02.

it. It's been a great seven years of it. It's been a great seven years of

:56:02.:56:04.

it. It's been a great seven years of experience. Thank you. The Bristol

:56:04.:56:05.

experience. Thank you. The Bristol experience. Thank you. The Bristol

:56:05.:56:06.

Conservative MP Charlotte Leslie is Conservative MP Charlotte Leslie is

:56:06.:56:07.

Conservative MP Charlotte Leslie is demanding the chief of the NHS

:56:07.:56:09.

demanding the chief of the NHS demanding the chief of the NHS

:56:09.:56:10.

resign over the scandal in mid resign over the scandal in mid

:56:10.:56:11.

resign over the scandal in mid Staffordshire. She has been backed

:56:11.:56:12.

Staffordshire. She has been backed Staffordshire. She has been backed

:56:12.:56:13.

Staffordshire. She has been backed by local GP and campaign ad Doctor

:56:13.:56:15.

by local GP and campaign ad Doctor by local GP and campaign ad Doctor

:56:15.:56:16.

Phil Hammond who helped uncover the Phil Hammond who helped uncover the

:56:16.:56:17.

Phil Hammond who helped uncover the Bristol heart scandal over ten years

:56:17.:56:18.

Bristol heart scandal over ten years Bristol heart scandal over ten years

:56:18.:56:19.

Bristol heart scandal over ten years ago. I caught up with them in

:56:19.:56:20.

ago. I caught up with them in ago. I caught up with them in

:56:20.:56:22.

Westminster are little earlier and Westminster are little earlier and

:56:22.:56:23.

Westminster are little earlier and started asking Charlotte why she

:56:23.:56:24.

started asking Charlotte why she started asking Charlotte why she

:56:24.:56:27.

thinks Sir David Nicholson should thinks Sir David Nicholson should

:56:27.:56:28.

thinks Sir David Nicholson should thinks Sir David Nicholson should

:56:28.:56:30.

go. In any other walk of life, if go. In any other walk of life, if

:56:30.:56:31.

go. In any other walk of life, if go. In any other walk of life, if

:56:31.:56:32.

you are responsible and at the head you are responsible and at the head

:56:32.:56:33.

you are responsible and at the head of an organisation that seen the

:56:33.:56:34.

of an organisation that seen the of an organisation that seen the

:56:34.:56:36.

death of patients, would you not death of patients, would you not

:56:36.:56:37.

death of patients, would you not death of patients, would you not

:56:37.:56:40.

have to go? The NHS should not any have to go? The NHS should not any

:56:40.:56:41.

different to another organisation different to another organisation

:56:41.:56:42.

different to another organisation and talks of accountability are

:56:42.:56:45.

and talks of accountability are and talks of accountability are

:56:45.:56:46.

meaningless unless action is taken. meaningless unless action is taken.

:56:46.:56:48.

meaningless unless action is taken. meaningless unless action is taken.

:56:48.:56:49.

The cap the tri- minister has warned The cap the tri- minister has warned

:56:49.:56:51.

The cap the tri- minister has warned against scapegoats. I think there is

:56:51.:56:53.

against scapegoats. I think there is against scapegoats. I think there is

:56:53.:56:53.

a difference between scapegoats and a difference between scapegoats and

:56:53.:56:56.

holding people responsible. Let's holding people responsible. Let's

:56:56.:56:57.

holding people responsible. Let's holding people responsible. Let's

:56:57.:56:58.

move on to Doctor Phil Hammond. Do move on to Doctor Phil Hammond. Do

:56:58.:56:58.

move on to Doctor Phil Hammond. Do move on to Doctor Phil Hammond. Do

:56:59.:57:02.

you think he should quit or be you think he should quit or be

:57:02.:57:04.

you think he should quit or be sacked? Yes, I came out immediately

:57:04.:57:05.

sacked? Yes, I came out immediately sacked? Yes, I came out immediately

:57:05.:57:05.

sacked? Yes, I came out immediately as Francis was speaking and wrote a

:57:05.:57:07.

as Francis was speaking and wrote a as Francis was speaking and wrote a

:57:07.:57:07.

as Francis was speaking and wrote a piece in The Times saying he should

:57:07.:57:08.

piece in The Times saying he should piece in The Times saying he should

:57:08.:57:10.

piece in The Times saying he should go. I think you must remember that

:57:10.:57:13.

go. I think you must remember that go. I think you must remember that

:57:13.:57:14.

the Bristol heart scandal was an the Bristol heart scandal was an

:57:14.:57:15.

the Bristol heart scandal was an audit over whether we have accepted

:57:15.:57:19.

audit over whether we have accepted audit over whether we have accepted

:57:19.:57:20.

the recommendations. The people at the recommendations. The people at

:57:20.:57:23.

the recommendations. The people at the centre haven't placed humanity

:57:23.:57:24.

the centre haven't placed humanity the centre haven't placed humanity

:57:24.:57:25.

the centre haven't placed humanity at the centre of health care. I

:57:25.:57:27.

at the centre of health care. I at the centre of health care. I

:57:27.:57:29.

at the centre of health care. I think he is responsible. If you look

:57:29.:57:29.

think he is responsible. If you look think he is responsible. If you look

:57:29.:57:30.

at the most important, powerful at the most important, powerful

:57:30.:57:31.

at the most important, powerful people he is the most powerful

:57:31.:57:34.

people he is the most powerful people he is the most powerful

:57:34.:57:36.

state. He is the accountable officer state. He is the accountable officer

:57:36.:57:37.

state. He is the accountable officer state. He is the accountable officer

:57:37.:57:38.

state. He is the accountable officer and he has to go. It is easy for us

:57:38.:57:39.

and he has to go. It is easy for us and he has to go. It is easy for us

:57:39.:57:41.

to blame some hapless manager to blame some hapless manager

:57:41.:57:42.

to blame some hapless manager to blame some hapless manager

:57:42.:57:43.

because we want to like doctors and because we want to like doctors and

:57:43.:57:44.

because we want to like doctors and nurses because we feel they are

:57:44.:57:45.

nurses because we feel they are nurses because we feel they are

:57:45.:57:46.

nurses because we feel they are helping us. They are the people on

:57:46.:57:47.

helping us. They are the people on helping us. They are the people on

:57:47.:57:48.

the frontline and the people who the frontline and the people who

:57:48.:57:49.

the frontline and the people who the frontline and the people who

:57:49.:57:51.

chose to do what their managers them chose to do what their managers them

:57:51.:57:52.

chose to do what their managers them chose to do what their managers them

:57:52.:57:53.

to do. This is not saying that to do. This is not saying that

:57:53.:57:54.

to do. This is not saying that doctors and nurses should not be

:57:54.:57:55.

doctors and nurses should not be doctors and nurses should not be

:57:55.:57:58.

doctors and nurses should not be held to account. Anyone who has held

:57:58.:58:00.

held to account. Anyone who has held held to account. Anyone who has held

:58:00.:58:01.

subhuman care should be held subhuman care should be held

:58:01.:58:02.

accountable. Local managers should accountable. Local managers should

:58:03.:58:04.

accountable. Local managers should be held to account. The regulators

:58:04.:58:08.

be held to account. The regulators failed. Ultimate responsibility

:58:08.:58:09.

failed. Ultimate responsibility failed. Ultimate responsibility

:58:09.:58:10.

should be taken for systemic should be taken for systemic

:58:10.:58:11.

should be taken for systemic failure. If only happened over the

:58:11.:58:12.

failure. If only happened over the failure. If only happened over the

:58:12.:58:13.

failure. If only happened over the last few months and we picked it up,

:58:13.:58:14.

last few months and we picked it up, last few months and we picked it up,

:58:14.:58:14.

last few months and we picked it up, fair enough. This went on for a

:58:14.:58:17.

fair enough. This went on for a fair enough. This went on for a

:58:17.:58:18.

decade. Therefore, I think the decade. Therefore, I think the

:58:18.:58:19.

decade. Therefore, I think the decade. Therefore, I think the

:58:19.:58:19.

person at the top of the tree, person at the top of the tree,

:58:19.:58:23.

person at the top of the tree, should stop down. Message is

:58:23.:58:24.

should stop down. Message is should stop down. Message is

:58:24.:58:25.

otherwise is that the worst scandal otherwise is that the worst scandal

:58:25.:58:26.

otherwise is that the worst scandal otherwise is that the worst scandal

:58:26.:58:27.

otherwise is that the worst scandal can go on on your watch and no one

:58:27.:58:33.

can go on on your watch and no one can go on on your watch and no one

:58:33.:58:34.

will notice. Charlotte Leslie, Phil will notice. Charlotte Leslie, Phil

:58:34.:58:41.

will notice. Charlotte Leslie, Phil will notice. Charlotte Leslie, Phil

:58:41.:58:41.

Hammond, thank you. Speaking to me a Hammond, thank you. Speaking to me a

:58:42.:58:42.

Hammond, thank you. Speaking to me a Hammond, thank you. Speaking to me a

:58:42.:58:43.

little earlier this week when I was little earlier this week when I was

:58:43.:58:45.

little earlier this week when I was little earlier this week when I was

:58:45.:58:45.

wearing a tie. It's been a busy wearing a tie. It's been a busy

:58:45.:58:46.

wearing a tie. It's been a busy political week let's look at the

:58:46.:58:53.

political week let's look at the political week let's look at the

:58:53.:58:55.

62nd round up. Taunton Deane borough 62nd round up. Taunton Deane borough

:58:55.:58:56.

62nd round up. Taunton Deane borough council has promised to keep funding

:58:56.:58:57.

council has promised to keep funding council has promised to keep funding

:58:57.:58:58.

the Brewhouse Theatre and offer a the Brewhouse Theatre and offer a

:58:58.:58:59.

the Brewhouse Theatre and offer a the Brewhouse Theatre and offer a

:58:59.:59:00.

one off grant to anyone who wants to one off grant to anyone who wants to

:59:00.:59:01.

one off grant to anyone who wants to one off grant to anyone who wants to

:59:01.:59:02.

take over the running of it. The take over the running of it. The

:59:02.:59:03.

take over the running of it. The take over the running of it. The

:59:03.:59:03.

doors were closed last week after it doors were closed last week after it

:59:03.:59:06.

went into administration. The went into administration. The

:59:06.:59:07.

went into administration. The Ministry of defence in Bristol has

:59:07.:59:08.

Ministry of defence in Bristol has Ministry of defence in Bristol has

:59:08.:59:09.

been criticised for buying billions been criticised for buying billions

:59:09.:59:11.

been criticised for buying billions been criticised for buying billions

:59:11.:59:12.

of pounds it doesn't need by MPs on of pounds it doesn't need by MPs on

:59:12.:59:14.

of pounds it doesn't need by MPs on the Public accounts committee.

:59:14.:59:15.

the Public accounts committee. the Public accounts committee.

:59:15.:59:16.

are talking about billions of pounds are talking about billions of pounds

:59:16.:59:17.

are talking about billions of pounds are talking about billions of pounds

:59:17.:59:18.

of stock that has been built up. We of stock that has been built up. We

:59:18.:59:21.

of stock that has been built up. We were stopping 15 years of supplies

:59:21.:59:22.

were stopping 15 years of supplies were stopping 15 years of supplies

:59:22.:59:23.

for Nimrod aircraft even though we for Nimrod aircraft even though we

:59:23.:59:24.

for Nimrod aircraft even though we cancelled the aircraft and we won't

:59:24.:59:26.

cancelled the aircraft and we won't cancelled the aircraft and we won't

:59:26.:59:27.

cancelled the aircraft and we won't use it any more. Children in Bath

:59:27.:59:28.

use it any more. Children in Bath use it any more. Children in Bath

:59:28.:59:30.

and North East Somerset could at and North East Somerset could at

:59:30.:59:31.

Eton school meals containing Eton school meals containing

:59:31.:59:32.

Eton school meals containing horsemeat according to the Council.

:59:32.:59:33.

horsemeat according to the Council. horsemeat according to the Council.

:59:33.:59:34.

horsemeat according to the Council. All beef mince has been taken of

:59:34.:59:35.

All beef mince has been taken of All beef mince has been taken of

:59:35.:59:35.

All beef mince has been taken of menus in the area are forced meat

:59:35.:59:37.

menus in the area are forced meat menus in the area are forced meat

:59:37.:59:38.

was found in tests. Restore city was found in tests. Restore city

:59:38.:59:39.

was found in tests. Restore city was found in tests. Restore city

:59:39.:59:41.

council would save up to �1 million council would save up to �1 million

:59:41.:59:43.

council would save up to �1 million council would save up to �1 million

:59:43.:59:44.

over the next decade by changing how over the next decade by changing how

:59:44.:59:45.

over the next decade by changing how over the next decade by changing how

:59:45.:59:46.

often it holds elections. A third of often it holds elections. A third of

:59:46.:59:47.

often it holds elections. A third of often it holds elections. A third of

:59:47.:59:47.

the council is voted in each year. the council is voted in each year.

:59:48.:59:50.

the council is voted in each year. Some councillors and the Mayor want

:59:50.:59:50.

Some councillors and the Mayor want Some councillors and the Mayor want

:59:50.:59:56.

all out elections every four years all out elections every four years

:59:56.:59:57.

all out elections every four years all out elections every four years

:59:57.:59:58.

instead. It flies past, as does the instead. It flies past, as does the

:59:58.:59:59.

instead. It flies past, as does the instead. It flies past, as does the

:59:59.:00:01.

week. Let's pick up on one of those week. Let's pick up on one of those

:00:01.:00:02.

week. Let's pick up on one of those stories, the closure of the

:00:02.:00:04.

stories, the closure of the Brewhouse Theatre. Should taxpayers

:00:04.:00:05.

Brewhouse Theatre. Should taxpayers Brewhouse Theatre. Should taxpayers

:00:05.:00:06.

Brewhouse Theatre. Should taxpayers be funding the arts? I think, yes,

:00:06.:00:08.

be funding the arts? I think, yes, be funding the arts? I think, yes,

:00:08.:00:10.

there is an element that should there is an element that should

:00:10.:00:12.

there is an element that should involve public subsidy because a lot

:00:12.:00:13.

involve public subsidy because a lot involve public subsidy because a lot

:00:13.:00:14.

of these activities are important if of these activities are important if

:00:14.:00:15.

of these activities are important if of these activities are important if

:00:15.:00:16.

we are to call ourselves a civilised we are to call ourselves a civilised

:00:16.:00:17.

we are to call ourselves a civilised we are to call ourselves a civilised

:00:17.:00:18.

country and I think an element of country and I think an element of

:00:18.:00:20.

country and I think an element of subsidy is necessary. To think they

:00:20.:00:21.

subsidy is necessary. To think they subsidy is necessary. To think they

:00:21.:00:23.

subsidy is necessary. To think they should stand and put on shows they

:00:23.:00:24.

should stand and put on shows they should stand and put on shows they

:00:24.:00:25.

should stand and put on shows they want to see? I think there needs to

:00:25.:00:27.

want to see? I think there needs to want to see? I think there needs to

:00:27.:00:27.

want to see? I think there needs to be a subsidy to make sure some of

:00:28.:00:30.

be a subsidy to make sure some of be a subsidy to make sure some of

:00:30.:00:32.

our theatres continued and be part our theatres continued and be part

:00:32.:00:33.

our theatres continued and be part our theatres continued and be part

:00:33.:00:34.

of the soul of our society. It is of the soul of our society. It is

:00:34.:00:35.

of the soul of our society. It is important to feed that cultural

:00:35.:00:37.

important to feed that cultural important to feed that cultural

:00:37.:00:38.

important to feed that cultural element of the society. I think the

:00:38.:00:40.

element of the society. I think the element of the society. I think the

:00:40.:00:41.

Brewhouse Theatre has 55 staff so Brewhouse Theatre has 55 staff so

:00:41.:00:42.

Brewhouse Theatre has 55 staff so theatres can grow quite a lot.

:00:42.:00:43.

theatres can grow quite a lot. theatres can grow quite a lot.

:00:43.:00:45.

theatres can grow quite a lot. Perhaps that is the answer, I don't

:00:45.:00:46.

Perhaps that is the answer, I don't Perhaps that is the answer, I don't

:00:46.:00:47.

Perhaps that is the answer, I don't know. I think we will leave it

:00:47.:00:48.

know. I think we will leave it know. I think we will leave it

:00:48.:00:49.

know. I think we will leave it there. That's all we have time for

:00:49.:00:51.

there. That's all we have time for there. That's all we have time for

:00:51.:00:52.

this week. Thank you to Robert this week. Thank you to Robert

:00:52.:00:54.

this week. Thank you to Robert Buckland and Claire Moody for

:00:54.:00:55.

Buckland and Claire Moody for Buckland and Claire Moody for

:00:55.:00:56.

Buckland and Claire Moody for joining us today, but don't go away

:00:56.:00:57.

joining us today, but don't go away because the Sunday Politics

:00:57.:00:58.

because the Sunday Politics because the Sunday Politics

:00:58.:01:00.

continues with Andrew in London. If continues with Andrew in London. If

:01:00.:01:01.

continues with Andrew in London. If continues with Andrew in London. If

:01:01.:01:02.

you'd like to watch our section of you'd like to watch our section of

:01:02.:01:03.

you'd like to watch our section of you'd like to watch our section of

:01:03.:01:04.

the programme again, then it will be the programme again, then it will be

:01:04.:01:05.

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including business secretary Vince Cable and former Conservative cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell.


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