13/10/2013 Sunday Politics West

Morning, welcome to the veritable Sunday Politics. We have Alastair

Charmichael. We'll ask him what Sunday Politics. We have Alastair

Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps has that his predecessor Michael

Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps going on and on and on. He'll bang

Free of the shackles of Government, former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne

Coming up here: Clamping down on illegal immigrants — the man in

says we've misunderstood the problem of human trafficking and that men

pundits who we try to shuffle out of a job but failed miserably, Mick

watt, Miranda Green Andijan an Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if

Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen

a a shift to the lot of. Two have announced policy changes which could

Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves says Labour will be tougher on the

Tories. While Tristram Hunt says Labour loves Tory-style free schools

after all. Here he is on the BBC viewers. If you are a group of

parents, social entrepreneurs, teachers, interested in setting

parents, social entrepreneurs, school in areas where you need new

school place, the Labour Government will be on your side. That's free

enterprise and innovation. It will will be on your side. That's free

be in areas of need. We have a school places crisis going on. It

teachers in these schools. And accountability. What is going on

with the Al Madina school is because of terrible mistakes with Michael

changed, the change of tone is I'm not sure if the policies have

changed, the change of tone is remarkable, both on welfare and

changed, the change of tone is schools. A significant change of

reshuffle on the Labour frontbench last week was init wered as a purge

of Blair rights. It seemed to be a purge of anti-reform thinking.

Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi different on substance but saying

Labour will be tough than the Tories on welfare. You've seen that clip

from Tristram, free schools will be allowed to be set up in areas of

need. Greater oversight. But a completely different change of tone,

we are on the side of parents and social entrepreneurs who want to set

these up. A different change. Why are they doing this? On education,

polarised. You've had the Michael department. This weekend, we've

polarised. You've had the Michael leaked memos from one of Michael

Gove's advisers which are extreme views about the state of education.

And on the other side teaching unions. It hasn't led to a healthy

debate which represents what parents want out of schools or employers.

This is a huge move from the Labour Party to sound more reasonable.

This is a huge move from the Labour have been silent on education which

is a huge policy area on the left. Is this a focus group-driven change?

They've seen the polls. Welfare reforms are hugery popular and free

only apiece the focus groups by changing the policy substantially. I

always thought a test for this Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed

Miliband would promote Blair rights, it is clear he did, it is whether

they would be allowed to be Blair rights. When Stephen Twigg carried

the education portfolio it was clear his own views were closer to the

Government than he was allowed to let on. He was constrained. There is

no point of giving Tristram Hunt this job if he is not allowed to say

what he thinks. I wouldn't mind betting privately he thinks free

schools should be available beyond just areas of need. He hasn't yet

defined need. It could be, we've run schools are so bad we need schools.

If that is it, it is the same Asics itsing Government policy. In they

unsatisfactory that's no different. He wanted to say he was in favour of

higher educational standards and rigour, he had to tell the audience

he has a Cambridge PhD to attack Michael Gove. That was difficult for

Tristram Hunt he had to mention that. Is that worth something, a PhD

from Cambridge? Obviously to him it is. He said they would demand proper

teaching qualifications. That could teaching? Independent schools do not

have to have teachers with formal teaching qualifications. I've never

been to one? What about you? That decision by Michael Gove to allow

free schools to employ nonunionised and non-trained people, so he has to

Watch this space. The dust settled after the party resufficients. Do

the Tories look a bit more like Britain. Do the Tories look more

#4 With reshuffles, you're never really certain. There's whispers,

rumours, guesses. But the only way to know it is underway is keeping

beady eyes on a front door. Up until now, the only way we knew who was in

and who was out was who came walking down this bit of Downing Street

and who was out was who came walking a smile on their face after going to

see the boss. The once who are to be sacked, they usually go round the

back. Not this time. No, something new alerted us all. The-PM started

can't remember a triple decker reshuffle where you've three parties

changing ministerial teams at the resufficient happened on Twitter.

Not that the press stopped watching the door as well. News was a bit

Charmichael replaced Michael Moore, the first to be pounced on. I'm

disappointed to be leaving office now but pleased at what I've been

able to achieve in the last couple of years. Not as pleased as one

imagines as the man receiving the welcome that went on, and on and

simultaneously having Jeremy Browne, in a sense seen off the premises of

the Home Office in conspiracy to let # Blowing hi Jude through a traffic

Democrats. We tend to think they are herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet

Minister, another minister, Jeremy Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

ranks were shifting too. The PM Browne. By lunch time, the Tory

to boost the numbers of telegenic women walking into Government and

turning perceptions around. He tipped a so-called flatcap to men

backgrounds with room for some which fitted neither label but are friends

of George Osborne. And, all the while, those new Tory ministers

of George Osborne. And, all the learning of Labour's changes. Labour

too knows the value of new young blood striding into the limelight.

Again some with TV experience of that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de

peer row would be hard to describe as hard left. But Blairbrushing

peer row would be hard to describe past out of the picture seemed to be

the name of the day. Liam Byrne With Diane Abbott also gone, was

this really a Blair right cull? It depends what you mean. Blair right

used to mean someone who wanted depends what you mean. Blair right

Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely

with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain

with him. Now it means sometimes of ideologyies or ideas. There are

still very much those kind of Blair rights within the party. But we

still very much those kind of Blair seeing the group around Tony Blair

are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was

over. New bees were sharing the ministers quietly thanked commits

raters. Or -- commiserators. Or ministers quietly thanked commits

disified. How much much someone standing here might want it to be

the case, you are unlikely to get someone coming out of that do going

"how could." And running off crying! And the brand, spanking new Scottish

Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins us from Orkney on a line that hasn't

been used since the fleet was used in the outbreak of World War I! I

wasn't around at the time. I'm hearing you loud and clear. Why

wasn't around at the time. I'm you agreed to run a department?

wasn't around at the time. I'm you wanted to abolish six years

wasn't around at the time. I'm Hello? Maybe our connections are not

Charmichael. Can you hear me? I Hello? Maybe our connections are not

hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.

Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department

you wanted to abolish six years have you agreed to run a department

Because this is the, probably one of the most important jobs in British

politics at the moment. To ensure that Scotland remains part of the

UK. Even when I was talking about the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs

of Scotland -- representation of Scotland within Whitehall, there was

always a job to be done. That is true in spades now. I will focus on

making sure the UK Government has a real voice in that debate. What

making sure the UK Government has a you that Michael Moore didn't have?

Look, I think Michael Moore did you that Michael Moore didn't have?

excellent job. The work he did delivering the Edinburgh agreement

clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to

substantial piece of work. I'm not friend of mine. I will say that

substantial piece of work. I'm not we go forward into this, this is now

about the actual debate itself. we go forward into this, this is now

will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to

just some abstract debate about nationhood, sovereignty, this is a

their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot

challenge. I understand that. But if you're being put in there to save

the union, every pole has the no -- poll has the no campaign margin

alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing pretty well to save the union. I

suspect you've been given the job to Scotland? And lieu, you misread

suspect you've been given the job to situation if you -- Andrew, you

misread the situation new think anybody is going to be the person

who will save the union. The people who will save the union are the

people of Scotland if they turn who will save the union are the

next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for

that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own

party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You

were even behind the Conservatives. The latest poll has you still in

fourth. Are you there because you're a bruiser and you will pep up the

Liberal Democrats opportunity in Scotland. If I had a pound for

everybody to referred to me as being Scotland. If I had a pound for

a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be sitting here this morning. I could

have retired by now. The truth of this, if I can address it once and

for all, I have done probably one of the most complex and subtle jobs in

three-and-a-half years, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition

survived in that job a week, let alone three-and-a-half years, if I

was the sort of person who went around picking unnecessary fights.

So, can we just please forget about this business about being a bruiser.

As far as the position of the party in the polls, this is true also

As far as the position of the party the referendum vote, opinion polls

are a snapshot. They are not a prediction of what will happen in

the future. I will be out there putting the case. Neither the next

election nor the referendum is one or lost yet. One of the things I

really want to be guarding against because we are a good margin ahead

today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.

Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As you know, wasn't for the Liberal

Democrats. Not just talking about the polls. You came fourth in the

You said you were happy to facial ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should

David Cameron face him? I am happy debate. Should David Cameron face

him? No, because that allows Alex Nationalists to portray this as

him? No, because that allows Alex sort of contest or choice between a

vision of Scottish social democracy and English conservativism, which it

is not. This is a debate that has to is not. This is a debate that has to

be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David

Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is

not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,

the person who should be debating Darling. He has got a Scottish name

wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described

the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were

you referring to the campaign or referring to Alistair Darling. I

think what I was saying is that referring to Alistair Darling. I

we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we

are now campaigning for people Alistair Darling said it himself, we

hearts because if you look at the range of papers the Government has

published, it is pretty clear the arguments lie in relation to the

head. I am not giving up the battle for the hearts and Scotland because

there is a good strong case, as somebody who is proud to be Scottish

and to be British, for Scotland somebody who is proud to be Scottish

remain part of the UK. You come somebody who is proud to be Scottish

distilleries and I understand you celebratory drink for your new post.

Not a drop has touched my lips. celebratory drink for your new post.

supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the

supporting local business! I will be of November, I will be doing it

supporting local business! I will be aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if

website, they can donate. It is worthwhile. I cannot think of a

better cause. One Cabinet minister who many thought might get Reef

better cause. One Cabinet minister Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics.

minorities, where did you fit in? I minorities, where did you fit in? I

would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it

would describe myself as the elder difficult to replace them. I enjoy

it. It is a great privilege to have a role in Cabinet and I will carry

on as long as David wants me to a role in Cabinet and I will carry

I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have

survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this

reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,

asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my

role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings

of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.

You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why

You said you are going to stand you keep going? What do you hope to

achieve in politics? I am mostly a political anorak, I have been since

I was very small, by the process of politics but the older I get I get

governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems

is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is

is quite appalling. The difficulty difficult and I find it fascinating.

The old argument that attracts every decent person into politics, you

might be able sometimes to make decent person into politics, you

bit of difference, and I try to decent person into politics, you

that. I try not to hark back on decent person into politics, you

experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the

Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on

Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain

adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda

on Britain's membership to the EU? I accountable to the long-term and

representatives, but this is a minority now and my colleagues have

firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of

Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is

Britain's relationship with the of the most important things in

Britain's place in the modern world politicians are able to look after

the living standards, the economy, the safety against terrorism. Last

the living standards, the economy, summer you said that only extreme

nationalists wanted a silly EU referendum. It follows your party

must be full of extremely silly nationalists. The people who are

desperate to have a referendum are all the people who actually want to

referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get

across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing

across to the public, don't just read in the newspaper about what the

commission is or is not doing, do commission is or is not doing, do

bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a

leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from

influence in events. That is not just how the politicians get on

influence in events. That is not politicians look after us when we

spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being

threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will

threatened. You didn't even turn up engagements on the Friday concerned.

It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be

seen voting for something your heart Look, many of your colleagues I

seen voting for something your heart interviewed say that if the choice

was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and

leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in

even on the status quo, wouldn't supporting the EU to leave now if I

got chance. I think our economy supporting the EU to leave now if I

investment, as in Washington last been if we were outside the EU.

investment, as in Washington last week. We are trying to roll forward

the prospect of free trade and I have to reassure Americans that

the prospect of free trade and I are not likely to leave the EU to

That is true but it also needs reform. The cry for reform, which is

particularly Germany, is a good reform. The cry for reform, which is

Even if David Cameron came back reform. The cry for reform, which is

nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?

one which is dwindling in comparison with others, in the modern world it

would be dangerous. I also think the dangers of the Middle East and the

dangers of some of the countries disengage. I will take that as a

strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree

persuaded when David delivers his reforms. The latest poll gives

Labour a ten point lead over the Tories and the reason why it has a

ten point lead is because UKIP are up there with 18% of the vote and

ten point lead is because UKIP are the Tory vote has slumped in the

Paul to 27%. How would you see off UKIP? By saying you need a strong

Paul to 27%. How would you see off and effective Government. We faced

terrible problems. Every Government I have been in has been behind in

the polls. This Government is not as popular as the previous Government I

have served in under the three previous prime ministers. When you

get an election, people have to previous prime ministers. When you

themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this

country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not

don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. off UKIP. People will not listen to

that. When people answer an opinion poll, they tell you how annoyed

that. When people answer an opinion are by something that has recently

upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government

I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you

have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern

us? They did take over a calamitous important problems to be decided

going forward. UKIP represents anti-immigration, anti-foreigners,

anti-Europe, anti-politics but I don't think it will get 18% of the

Thank you. Once upon a time, a politician whose career ended in

disgrace might choose to lie low for a while, perhaps to spend a bit

disgrace might choose to lie low for time tending the tulips and doing

the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from

prison only five months ago but Chris Huhne. He walked free from

former Energy Secretary is already back in the public eye - a column in

the Guardian, a job with a renewable interview. So is he working on a

political rehabilitation? Chris Politics. The answer to that is

clearly know, and thank you for inviting me back. You have set your

career in politics is over so what does the future hold for you? I

career in politics is over so what happy doing what I am doing, I am

passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things

on that front in terms of business non-governmental organisations,

on that front in terms of business I am doing a column for the Guardian

on Mondays. You obviously get a I am doing a column for the Guardian

of material from the Sunday Politics to write about. Have you embarked on

political rehabilitation? It was clear from the point of view of

political rehabilitation? It was George when I was sentenced, he

rehabilitating you, because I had not offended for ten years, it was

actually about stopping people like you, Andrew, Ron doing the same

thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why

thing. It was a deterrent effect for prosecution was brought. I had not

offended for ten years on this, rehabilitate yourself in the public?

coalition to the bitter end? Or should they re-establish their own

Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are

going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib

Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, would be a good result for the Lib

interesting election because I think you will have essentially three

party leaders, all of whom are negative ratings so it will be a

battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,

the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't

the Liberal Democrats do badly in next year's European elections,

the Liberal Democrats do badly in could come fourth on fifth behind

leadership be in jeopardy? I've could come fourth on fifth behind

in countless cycles where we've could come fourth on fifth behind

very low poll ratings. The normal pickup to the subsequent general

election on average has been 10 percentage points. So he's not in

jeopardy? I think Nick will be there at the next general election. I

think he'll lead the party into at the next general election. I

next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most

people think. If we are heading we'll do much better than most

another hung Parliament, which is Let's be honest, you'd rather be in

coalition with the Labour Party Let's be honest, you'd rather be in

have a repeat of the Conservatives? One of the key things I sawed to

colleagues, whatever your personal preference, I used to be a Labour

Party member, you can derive from that I'm on the left of centre of

the party. I always said to my colleagues in the party, it is

the we are in politics because we are Liberal Democrats, not because

we are either Conservatives or second best Labour. If you don't

take that view, you don't have any bargaining position when it comes to

coalition. You have to be able, genuinely, to do a coalition with

either of the other parties. I understand that, but you'd prefer

Labour? Your personal preference really should not come into this. It

is about making sure you get the best possible deal for the things

you get that with one party rather than another, that's fine. You stand

up for Liberal Democrat values, than another, that's fine. You stand

for Conservative or Labour second best values. You said you're keeping

up your interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise

up your interest in energy matters. temporary price freeze? There's

up your interest in energy matters. pop ewe louse posturing. It is not a

sensible policy. It was tried in California in 2,000 and 2001 which

led to blackouts. We had the Prime Minister promising we should sift

everybody automatically to the unfortunately we're at the stage in

the political cycle where we are getting clap trap. You're against

the freeze? It is a bad idea when we are trying to encourage investment.

When the market can give us some of the lowest gas and electricity

son-in-law of the lowest? Not our base price? The other European Ian

prices are only higher because they put a lot more taxes on to it? Our

base energy prices are among the highest in Europe? No, if you look

at EU comparisons in what goes out to people's households. That's after

all the taxes have been put on them? to people's households. That's after

green taxes is George Osborne with should no better. One the-hip ok

not want it. We do not need it to agreement because the Conservatives

not want it. We do not need it to electricity system. It was a revenue

raising measure by the Tories. It set off a whole load of hairs about

green taxes which are now coming home to roost. Final point to you,

wish we'd more time to talk, you're a big supporter of Leveson-style

press regulation. Will you stop writing for The Guardian if it

refuses to sign up to the Leveson charter? I think that's neither

refuses to sign up to the Leveson nor there. The Guardian gives me a

up to what you believe in will you up to what you believe in will you

support it? No because I'm sure they'll allow me to make that that

point. I think newspapers will sign up for it. They've had a collapse in

public trust and confidence in recent years. Unparalleled. They

need a third party endorsement to say these guys have cleaned up their

act. If they are going to get trust haven't signed up, which they won't,

you can come back and we'll talk You're watching the Sunday politics.

Thank you, Andrew, and welcome to the part of the programme just for

us in the West. Coming up today the part of the programme just for

on the campaign to reduce the number of immigrants entering the UK. These

controversial billboards were signed off by the Forest of Dean MP Mark

Harper, who will be telling us why, if they proved to work, they could

be back on the streets. Joining if they proved to work, they could

Snelgrove, a helper to Gordon Brown at number ten. She's standing again

at the next election. And Mark immigration. Mark was born in and's

old constituency but moved as soon as possible. It will soon be January

and the remaining and Bulgarians will be entitled to come and live

here. How many are you expecting? We've been very sensible not to

here. How many are you expecting? and make a forecast. The previous

government said there would be 13,000 people coming from Eastern

Europe but it turned out to be nearly 600,000. There are eight

controls at the moment who are all going to take them off at the end of

the year. Our advisers said trying to put a number on it was a fool's

errand. It's worrying that you have no idea. Romanians can already come

here if they are self—employed or come here to study, and they can

come here if they are in certain kinds of occupation. They will be

able to do other things in the New Year. Interestingly, the most recent

numbers of people coming from Europe are not from Eastern Europe but

numbers of people coming from Europe other countries like Spain and

Portugal staying for longer because there are economy is under such

pressure. Wages here are five times what they are in Bulgaria. But there

are costs involved in coming and the polling that has been done does

are costs involved in coming and the support the contention there are

lots of people waiting to come. We've got tougher rules and stuff

that claims you can't... But you're would be a guess. We've heard about

what was going on at number ten would be a guess. We've heard about

Damian McBride. Were you aware of this poisonous activity at the heart

of government? Know and I never this poisonous activity at the heart

Mr McBride. He had long gone before I got into number ten. Just as we

want to concentrate on policy now, it is very important that we get

is nasty it is horrible and he got the boot for being like that. Were

you covering up for some strange behaviour by Mr Brown and some of

his acolytes? Jee, not at all. He absolutely was not. The last year of

Miliband is now concentrating on policy renewal and looking at what

we can do to help people in the future with things like energy

politics is the politics of the Illegal immigrant will find it

government is planning to ban their access to health care and housing,

stop them driving and clamp down on sham marriages. But critics say

stop them driving and clamp down on proposals will turn us all into

This is the image the government likes to project — officials taking

immigrant. And it's going to get tougher still with the announcement

of new legislation. What this bill does is make it harder for people

who are here illegally to be able to carry on living here, so access

who are here illegally to be able to the things that people use on a

licences and bank accounts will become harder under the proposals.

Hers is the fifth immigration bill since 2000 and will force those

Hers is the fifth immigration bill temporary visas seeking health to

pay a contribution. Banks will have to check immigration records before

opening accounts. A driving licence will depend on immigration status,

as will accommodation and landlords landlords don't know, and how are

have the training or the expertise. They're not qualified to do that.

What Theresa May seems to be trying to do is turn us into a nation of

immigration officers will stop this is wholly wrong. The voters may

disagree. Politicians see how UKIP Immigration concerns are large and

sometimes exaggerated. A recent Immigration concerns are large and

perceived to be immigrants but the official figure is 13%. There we are

sensitive for Labour. Chris Bryant visited Bristol on a nationwide

sensitive for Labour. Chris Bryant to develop policy. We are not just

telling stories. Our cases are different and every case is unique

in its own way. He showed sympathy for these asylum seekers. Labour are

anxious to prove they have toughened their stance, however. When Poland

and Latvia joined the EU, other countries like Germany and France

said they couldn't come here to countries like Germany and France

from day one. We should have done the same and I think the problem was

that because we went alone, it meant everybody from those countries

wanted to come here and that did have an effect on people at the

lower end of the labour market particularly. Labour haven't said

too much about the controversial poster vans which toured several

London borrowers this summer, huts wary of public opinion. It's a

fantastic idea. We need to clean up the mess. The people who are legally

entitled are being deprived of jobs. It's a massive problem but it's

entitled are being deprived of jobs. really the way to deal with it.

entitled are being deprived of jobs. wouldn't ask a criminal on the side

of a van to go to prison. Maybe wouldn't ask a criminal on the side

isn't the way to do it but everyone has to abide by the law in the UK.

The public mood has hardened. There is less tolerance, more demand for

change. But politics isn't just about what is popular but what is

Joining us is an Iraqi asylum seeker living in Bristol and Doctor Naomi

University. Let's start with you first of all. People expect you

University. Let's start with you be firm about immigration but are

you now sympathy being unkind? People expect us to be firm and

you now sympathy being unkind? and we have very sensible processes

for dealing with asylum, which we'll be talking about shortly. Britain is

a welcoming country for people who love a good claim to be here but we

expect people to play by the rules. But you are trying to create a

illegal immigrants that is what But you are trying to create a

claiming asylum while the claim But you are trying to create a

being processed, we want to be welcoming. For those who have not

had their claim granted and have had the chance to appeal, we want them

to leave the country. If someone needs urgent health care... They

will get it. It is a National Health Service not an international health

service. Was the poster campaign your idea? It was something I signed

off in the Home Office. It was a pilot and we are evaluating the

results. How many people went home? I was making the point in the House

of Commons this week that it cost £10,000. I said that if only one

person went home as a result, it will have paid for itself. At least

one did. I believe it has been banned by the advertising standards

agency. Just let me finish. When we autumn, people can judge. If it

agency. Just let me finish. When we successful we will continue and

agency. Just let me finish. When we not, we won't. Even UKIP said it was

nasty. It was about focusing on people who are illegal immigrant is

and don't have the right to be in Britain. Anne, the people who suffer

immigration are the work because they are priced out of jobs. ——

immigration are the work because poor. That was Labour's fort, wasn't

in the slightest. In the first illegal immigrant or migrants sent

home at the ports. In the second quarter of this year, 2013, only

14,000 were sent home at port entry. Labour encouraged immigration,

didn't it? We didn't encourage illegal immigration. But what we had

were some very firm controls which are not now being practised by this

government. What people want is effective immigration and illegal

immigration controlled. Ed Miliband immigration policy. What we've

apologised for, as Chris Bryant said, is that we made a mistake

about allowing Eastern European said, is that we made a mistake

to come in just before everybody else did, so they came to this

country first. I don't think we else did, so they came to this

a mistake on a number of immigration issues because we were very firm and

very tough but you have to be fair. Welcome to this studio. You are

very tough but you have to be fair. Iraq. Tell us your story. Thank

very tough but you have to be fair. very much, first of all, and I want

illegal person. I am an asylum seeker. My life in my country is in

danger, that's why I left my family and everything. I came here, I

Asylum seekers for centuries have come here. You didn't believe me and

I know my story is true. The system did not believe me. I didn't want to

interrupt you but you've been turned down for asylum how many times? Five

times they didn't believe me. And it because my life is in danger there.

I will continue trying to get my right to get a safe place. We are

very clear. His case has been looked at very carefully by the government

and we didn't find it credible. at very carefully by the government

have a fair system where he is able to go through a legal process. The

judge said parts of his claim were not credible and ridiculous. I'm

afraid he has no right to be in not credible and ridiculous. I'm

Would you consider that? My life is in danger in my country, that is why

I can't return. My friends here in danger in my country, that is why

community. But their ability is limited. I want to ask you, can

community. But their ability is With the greatest respect, when

community. But their ability is were claiming asylum the taxpayer

supported you. You now have no right to be in the UK and should return

home. My life is in danger. We don't believe you and neither did the

judge. There is no room for them. They are living in the park and

judge. There is no room for them. bus shelter. My friends are helping

me and giving me a place to sleep and giving me clothes. I want to

bring in Naomi. The question of getting tough on immigration is

because the public are loud and clear about it. I work with four

refugee organisations in Bristol and we have a network of researchers who

are very concerned that the UK is pursuing a deliberate policy of

destitution, trying to put off people from coming here. The recent

report produced by the home affairs department suggested that alongside

Amnesty International, human rights are being contravened. I work with

destitute because they are trying to get evidence. I have seen people

being refused from the same region for opposite reasons. There have

been whistle—blowing reports in for opposite reasons. There have

Guardian to suggest that the people qualified. It suggests there are

problems with the way the process is taking place. To then refused to

provide accommodation, the right to work, health to these people...

Hard—working families will be sat there in credulous that someone

Hard—working families will be sat had a chance to go through a system,

they've had a decision, appealed it to a judge, have been found not

they've had a decision, appealed it have the need for our protection.

They will find it incredible that the taxpayer should be expected

They will find it incredible that continue to fund them when they

don't have the right to live here. It doesn't give the world the right

to come to the United Kingdom. It is chance and not hard work which

is... We are generous at protecting people who are genuinely fleeing

persecution. If people abuse our system, it will damage the British

people's tolerance. If people don't interpretation and legal aid, they

will not be able to make their claims. Why is there a queue of

people to come here if it is so difficult? Twice as many people

people to come here if it is so accepted for asylum in France and

Germany as the UK last year. Asylum seekers are only 4% of the migrant

population. They are being made seekers are only 4% of the migrant

scapegoat for a much broader raft of political and economic problems

scapegoat for a much broader raft of the UK. The system itself needs

scapegoat for a much broader raft of be looked at, opened up and dressed

with honesty and not just with rhetoric. We have to leave it there.

We've heard a lot about Mark's role as the minister for immigration

We've heard a lot about Mark's role what is it actually like to juggle

constituency work and that famous red box? This week our political

reporter is headed to London to red box? This week our political

The summer recess has well and truly faded and conference season is

behind us as well. Our West Country MPs made their way back to the

hustle and bustle of the Westminster bubble recently. I've got letters to

sign and other things to clear. bubble recently. I've got letters to

course, on top of that, I've got my constituency responsibilities. It is

quite a full day. It keeps us busy and my constituents get value for

money for what they pay me. That will be up to the voters in the

Forest of Dean to decide, of course. When we met Mark, he had been up

From the plush the rantings of the Home Office to his MP office. The

constituency work never stops, so add in a ministerial job, it's extra

pay and responsibilities, and it makes for a long day. It's a price

Mark is willing to pay. We've seen this week with the reshuffle that

you so at the best of the Prime Minister. I'm very lucky that he's

asked me to do what is a job that is very important for the country and

which most of my constituents would think is important and I think most

of them would support the moves think is important and I think most

are making. On Friday it's back think is important and I think most

the constituency. Do the voters think is important and I think most

agreed? It gives us credibility think is important and I think most

Parliament if we've got somebody Conservative party? I think with the

is maybe trying to get a grip on it but I don't think he's succeeding at

the moment. In all honesty, I don't think it helps an awful lot. We

the moment. In all honesty, I don't feel that he should be looking after

us a bit more. With 11 out of the time they can spend solving local

issues is reduced. We've all got a high workload and work long hours.

constituency just like everybody else and we do the work of the

constituents. What about your home life? It's 8pm. It's not regular

that you would be out for a pint. Last time you had a pint, you got

into trouble, didn't you? We talked about this earlier. As a minister,

you have your book box and we all get our homework every night. The

only time during the summer but get our homework every night. The

didn't have a read box, people will be familiar with the fat that I

didn't have a read box, people will out doing some dancing and had a

serious injury to my foot, which, fortunately, has now healed, which

most of my constituents seem to fortunately, has now healed, which

thought was a huge handicap my career! It is a fine line to walk,

being a minister, surely the perks outweigh the pitfalls. Just ask

being a minister, surely the perks of the West's MPs who were sacked

Looks pretty odd to me. Why do people want to get elected and be

ministers? I have no idea, to be honest. It is a nightmare. It is a

very busy time and, frankly, I had enough to do when I was a PPS. It is

round—the—clock and people don't get enough sleep. But there's something

about it that you love otherwise people wouldn't be so upset about

being sacked. When you get elected as an MP and as and is, it's because

most people go into politics because they think they can make the country

particularly, you hope you'll be able to make changes in the right

direction. The public get to choose whether they think you've made a

good job but that's why people do Westminster with all the kowtowing

from the rest of us? I don't think there is any kowtowing. I think

from the rest of us? I don't think exactly the opposite — who do you

Time now for our weekly look at exactly the opposite — who do you

The West's controversial badger exactly the opposite — who do you

could now continue into November. Paterson said their planning is

could now continue into November. to blame. It's those pesky badgers

who moved the goalposts again. We're dealing with a wild animal, subject

to the vagaries of weather and disease and breeding patterns.

Confirmation, to, from him that they're considering gassing badgers

These Lib Dems were booted out of reshuffle. Jeremy Browne lost his

job at the Home Office and David Campaigners took up residence in

Miss Appletree to stop campaigners from dropping it down. The badger

set here was what they were trying This protester has been charged

set here was what they were trying Let's pick up on the badger story.

The badger is moving the goalposts again, as your minister said. This

is going on in your constituency — do you approve? I do. There is no

enthusiasm for it. We've got a very difficult situation. Bovine TB has

been increasing very quickly over the last few years. But it's an

utter failure. I think the evidence from this week is that we've made

considerable progress. We have been necessary and the evidence from

other countries is that you've got to get a grip on the disease. It's

nonsense. It's costing £4 million to police this failed cull and they've

had to ask for extension. All it's going to do is disperse badgers

had to ask for extension. All it's TB to other parts of Gloucestershire

and Somerset where they haven't TB to other parts of Gloucestershire

TB before. Friendly, this idea of gassing badgers, which will gas

horrendous. It is failed science and failed humanity. I'm not a big fan

at all. That's all we've got time for today. Banks to our two guests

for joining us. —— thank you. The programme will be available on the

and these tactics were plain wrong. That is all we have time for. Back

ministerial team this week with That is all we have time for. Back

commentators calling it the purge of the Blairites, but one poor lamb who

fell victim to this perch was Diane Abbott, not somebody who worshipped

at the altar of Tony Blair. Life on the backbenches means she can pursue

other interests such as attending the Cheltenham literary Festival,

and where she joins us now. Welcome. Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He

think the thing that did it for Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He

was me coming out on Syria. This was Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He

a purge of the Blairites, how did you become collateral damage? I

a purge of the Blairites, how did no idea but the fact that I was

a purge of the Blairites, how did one member of the front bench to go

public about my concerns on Syria probably tipped my enemies in the

party machinery over the edge. But he went your way on Syria, in the

end he agreed with your line on Syria so why would that be for

dismissal? I agree with you - you're fired. Because I actually spoke

dismissal? I agree with you - you're and it was the fact that I spoke up,

which was like a pebble falling and it was the fact that I spoke up,

forest or something. I am glad I spoke up on Syria. He doesn't like

people around them than who are outspoken, who speak their minds? I

think he's convinced he needs people who read from the scripts. People

increasingly upset that even though who read from the scripts. People

I was speaking party policy, I was reading from the script. Since Mr

Miliband bid you farewell, you've said he's doing his best. Is his

best good enough? I am sure it will be. I've always said the Labour

Party chose the right Miliband. be. I've always said the Labour

will remain loyal to him on the backbenches. You're going to be

loyal? However, I want to join in the debate. You're going to be

loyal? Absolutely. I was loyal both in public and private when others

were bitching about him behind the from the backbenches, I hope to

were bitching about him behind the involved in the debate particularly

around nick policy. Et's see how loyal you are. You must be happy

with all this new tough talk on welfare and free schools? Well,

with all this new tough talk on think both Rachel and Tristram are

very talented. We're going to have to see how this all plays out. The

issue of free schools, they are to see how this all plays out. The

thing. But diminishing the role to see how this all plays out. The

local authorities is another. There need strong local authorities. I'm

local authorities is another. There sure Tristram will be aware of that.

As for welfare, I'm sure Rachel knows some of the cuts the Tories

have made have been counter prod ublingtive in -- productive in terms

of spending. You wouldn't call that your full-hearted endorsement, would

you? What are you on, and lieu? your full-hearted endorsement, would

haven't seen the detail of Rachel's new position. You have to wait and

see the detail. It is in the papers. You haven't stopped reading the

papers. It was the Observer. When will you announce you're running for

Mayor of London? I have no plans to announce that I'm running for Mayor

Mayor of London? I have no plans to of London. No plans. That's what

Michael his I will Tyne used to of London. No plans. That's what

me. He had no plans to run against Margaret Thatcher. Are these the

same kind of plans you have? I know. No, no. I have no plans. You know

going for it. Everybody knows you're going for it. Just fess up to your

old mate! ! I have no plans to run. If you did run, who would be, what

would be your biggest threat other than yourself? I think there's a lot

of very talented candidates, David They are all talented. I would have

to weigh up the field. What do you think your chances would be of

getting the taxi drivers' vote? Well, you know, Andrew, some of

getting the taxi drivers' vote? most loyal viewers of This Week

getting the taxi drivers' vote? were taxi drivers and their wives.

I'm not frightened of reaching out to middle England. You will find if

you walk around London sub usual ya, they all know me and they all love

This Week. Love This Week. I thought you were going to say they all love

you. One person who loves you, is Michael Portillo. He wasn't a happy

chappie on Thursday night. You can't see it but you can hear. This is

what he said. I was disappointed for her. She had decided to leave this

something else in politics. She wanted to do something serious.

something else in politics. She had taken what appeared to be a

something else in politics. She position but taken it extremely

serious and was committed to the issues. I'm quite disappointed for

her. Why would Ed Miliband do such a thing. You just mentioned about

London mayor, did Diane not ask thing. You just mentioned about

Someone who's an eminent person thing. You just mentioned about

this programme, I don't know how he could do that. I think Michael's

missing you. Are you free this Thursday night? Make him a happy

man, come back to the fold. I think I may be free this Thursday night.

So, if he'll have me, I'll be there. My people will speak to your people.

We'll get it sorted out. Diane, watch that big vase behind you,

you're not insured for. That thanks Does she have a chance of being

Mayor of London? She's very well known as Michael pointed out. That

is important. People who are outside known as Michael pointed out. That

the party fold have traditionally done well in the mayoral election.

The job of being a London mayor done well in the mayoral election.

running an economy the size of a nation. It is a very serious job.

There may be problems with her running? That was a transparent

There may be problems with her for it. She's potentially a very

compelling Coll ticks. People have left-winger but she's quite tough

and conservative. Michael Gove said he had fallen in love with Diane

which That's one vote he has. What do you think? I thing about Diane

Abbott is she has a fantastic way of connecting. She has a really good

way of connecting wi people. She would be a very strong candidate in

candidate. It will probably be a Labour win next time. Depends, if

Labour wins the 2015 election it may be more difficult. There's a danger

for Labour that Diane is the big personality liked by the party

primary but isn't necessarily a personality liked by the party

in come the London general election? That's true. London is traditionally

a Labour city. But Boris managed to win as an outsider. There are big

dangers for Labour with that. I think, as I said before, somebody

who seems a bit independent from their own party machinery tend to do

We've only had mayors so far that were independent? Indeed. And how

Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. well Ken Livingstone did last time.

Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. He was and is much more left-wing

than Diane Abbott. Diane didn't He was and is much more left-wing

stray on Syria, it was immigration. Why was Jeremy brown replaced by

This is very much to do with Clegg deciding he has to go back to those

people who abandoned the Liberal Democrats the day they went into

coalition with the Conservatives really, and convince them there

coalition with the Conservatives some holy areas of policy, sacred

areas which they will defend. That includes civil liberties. In the

Home Office, that incident with includes civil liberties. In the

immigration vans went down very badly across the whole nation. Went

down particularly badly with Liberal Democrats and voters. In the Home

somebody there to put a shield on purpose behind it. And Nick Clegg

has won the argument against the left, Vince Cable on the economy,

away day in July, briefings say DrCable's been put in his box. He's

won the argument on economic policy against the left. When it comes

won the argument on economic policy the touchstone issue in the Home

Office, he wants to shore up that vote on the left. And please The

Guardian. This is important for something else going on which is

that Nick Clegg has to keep his parliamentary party happy. That

involves giving them ministerial jobs. A lot of Liberal Democrats

losing their jobs, Michael Moore, because vacancies have to be created

for number people to come in. By Liberal Democrat MPs will have been

on the payroll. It is effective party management. I want to move on

to press regulation. Brian Leveson's famous report, appeared before the

parliamentary select committee. famous report, appeared before the

will run you a clip from Connor politicians got involved in this. We

moved away from the press 300 years ago. The centr commitment is Lord

Leveson wanted a system the press self-regulation. This is state

involvement which I worry about profoundly. He sits on the media

interviews and investigations into the media. Chris Huhne said earlier

he thought all the newspapers would sign up to the Government-backed

Royal Charter. I think he's totally should. But he did say they would. I

think he's wrong. They won't sign up. All the mood music when that

Royal Charter was agreed on Friday was they would not sign up. It is

Maria Miller, is essentially saying to the press industry, if you don't

sign up, the Royal charter will to the press industry, if you don't

ahead. I cannot control the Labour to the press industry, if you don't

industry is wind the clock back to the press industry, if you don't

what they are calling the Puttnam stage. That was earlier this year,

Lord Puttnam was tack amendments which would introduce statutory

regulation. Maria Miller says you statutory legislation but if you

don't sign up to this, it will be a lot worse. Will that work? Playing

the good cop, bad cop routine? Will that pressurise everyone to sign up.

Lots of people are saying this will be a club with no members. It won't

work. As Nick and I broke the story last week that the Government was

going to reject the newspaper-backed one, I'm certain that the newspapers

now, most of them maybe, not all, but most, will go the legal route

and to judicial review on what the Government's proposing and will

and to judicial review on what the it to strains Bowring where freedom

of the press is enshrined. They it to strains Bowring where freedom

fight this? There is enough fury amongst Fleet Street to result in

that. The big political question going forward is which of the party

leaders does the press blame the most for the emergence of press

regulation? The Tories are very confident they'll blame Ed Miliband

the most. They'll target him before 2015. David Cameron gave us Brian

Leveson. You appoint a judge who shouldn't be surprised with what you

got in the Leveson report? I big chunk of press will look at David

Cameron saying, you were the guy who intended what will happen. If he had

have appointed Brian Leveson. If they face more punitive fines over

Labour ale cases they take that they face more punitive fines over

Europe. The Daily Mail and the tallest presumably will have to

suspend their campaign of Britain to leave the European Convention of

suspend that. We must never come out Churchill was behind it. He was

indeed. But it is actually a major constitutional issue whether you

regulate the press or not. There was constitutional issue whether you

a lot of ill feeling that this Marie ya miller statement was snubbing out

on Friday afternoon. Somebody said freedom of the press too important

to sneak out on afully afternoon. The whole subject should be treated

with respect. We've run out of time. I'll be back next Sunday with the

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles at our usual time of 11.00am. If