27/10/2013 Sunday Politics West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Hope you enjoyed

the extra hour in bed, and that you've realised it's not 12:45. It's

11:45! It's getting stormy outside. But they're already battening down

the hatches at Number Ten because coalition splits are back, with

bust-ups over free schools and power bills. We'll speak to the Lib Dems,

and ask Labour who's conning whom over energy.

EU leaders have been meeting in Brussels. But how's David Cameron

getting on with that plan to change our relationship with Europe? We

were there to ask him. Have we got any powers back yet? DS!

Foreign companies own everything from our energy companies to our

railways. Does it In the West... Tony Benn on why he's

becoming even more left wing. The former Labour minister and Bristol

MP tells me why his party should seek to re`nationalise the energy

industry. as many daily journeys made by bus

than by tube, so why is the planned investment in buses not keeping

pace? And with me, three journalists

who've bravely agreed to hunker down in the studio while Britain braces

itself for massive storm winds, tweeting their political forecasts

with all the accuracy of Michael Fish on hurricane watch. Helen

Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt. Now, sometimes coalition splits are

over-egged, or dare we say even occasionally stage-managed. But this

week, we've seen what looks like the genuine article. It turns out Nick

Clegg has his doubts about the coalition's flagship free schools

policy. David Cameron doesn't much like the green levies on our energy

bills championed by the Lib Dems. Neither of them seems to have

bothered to tell the other that they had their doubts. Who better to

discuss these flare-ups than Lib Dem Deputy Leader Simon Hughes? He joins

me now. Welcome. Good morning. The Lib Dems spent three years of

sticking up for the coalition when times were grim. Explain to me the

logic of splitting from them when times look better. We will stick

with it for five years. It is working arrangement, but not

surprisingly, where there right areas on which we disagree over

where to go next, we will stand up. It is going to be hard enough for

the Lib Dems to get any credit for the recovery, what ever it is. It

will be even harder if you seem to be semidetached and picky. The

coalition has led on economic policy, some of which were entirely

from our stable. The one you have heard about most often, a Lib Dem

initiative, was to take people on blowing comes out of tax. The

recovery would not have happened, there would not have been confidence

in Britain, had there not been a coalition government with us in it,

making sure the same policies produced fair outcomes. We are not

going to leave the credit for any growth - and there has been very

good news this week. We have played a part in that, and without us, it

would not have happened. Does it not underline the trust problem you

have? You promised to abolish tuition fees. You oppose nuclear

power, now you are cheerleading the first multi-billion pounds

investment in nuclear generation. You are dying out on your enthusiasm

on green levies, and now they are up for renegotiation. Why should we

trust a word you say? In relation to green levies, as you well know, just

under 10% is to do with helping energy and helping people. Unless

there is continuing investment in renewables, we will not have the

British produced energy at cheaper cost to keep those bills down in the

future. At cheaper cost? Explain that to me. Off-shore energy is

twice the market rate. The costs of renewables will increasingly come

down. We have fantastic capacity to produce the energy and deliver lots

of jobs in the process. The parts of the energy bill that may be up for

renegotiation seems to be the part where we subsidise to help either

poor people pay less, or where we do other things. Too insulated the

homes? Are you up to putting that to general taxation? Wouldn't that be

progressive? I would. It would be progressive. I would like to do for

energy bills what the Chancellor has done for road traffic users,

drivers, which is too fuelled motor fuel -- to freeze new to fall. That

would mean there would be an immediate relief this year, not

waiting for the election. So there is a deal to be done there? Yes We

understand we have to take the burden off the consumer, and also

deal with the energy companies, who look as if they are not paying all

the tax they should be, and the regulator, which doesn't regulate

quickly enough to deal with the issues coming down the track. We can

toughen the regulator, and I hope that the Chancellor, in the Autumn

statement, was signalled that energy companies will not be allowed to get

away with not paying the taxes they should. And this deal will allow

energy prices to come down? Yes How could David Laws, one of your

ministers, proudly defend the record of unqualified teachers working in

free schools, and then stand side-by-side with Mr Clegg, as he

says he is against them? David Laws was not proudly defending the fact

that it is unqualified teachers He said that some of the new,

unqualified teachers in free schools are doing a superb job. But you want

to get rid of them? We want to make sure that everybody coming into a

free school ends up being qualified. Ends up? Goes through a process that

means they have qualifications. Just as we said very clearly at the last

election that the manifesto curriculum in free schools should be

the same as other schools. It looks like Mr Clegg is picking a fight

just for the sake of it. Mr Clegg was taught by people who didn't have

teaching qualifications in one of the greatest schools in the land, if

not the world. It didn't seem to do him any harm. What is the problem?

If you pay to go to a school, you know what you're getting. But that

is what a free school is. No, you don't pay fees. A free school is

parents taking the decisions, not you, the politicians. We believe

they would expect to guarantee is, firstly that the minimum curriculum

taught across the country is taught in the free schools, and secondly,

that the teachers there are qualified. Someone who send their

kids to private schools took a decision to take -- to send their

children there, even if the teachers were unqualified, because they are

experts in their field. Someone who send their kids to free schools is

because -- is their decision, not yours. Because some of the free

schools are new, and have never been there before, parents need a

guarantee that there are some basics in place, whatever sort of school.

So they need you to hold their hand? It is not about holding hands, it is

about having a minimum guarantee. Our party made clear at our

conference that this is a priority for us. Nick Clegg reflects the view

of the party, and I believe it is an entirely rational thing to do. Nick

Clegg complained that the Prime Minister gave him only 30 minutes

notice on the Prime Minister Buzz 's U-turn on green levies. That is

almost as little time as Nick Clegg gave the Prime Minister on his

U-turn on free schools. Aren't you supposed to be partners? Green

levies were under discussion in the ministerial group before Wednesday,

because we identified this as an issue. We do that in a practical

way. Sometimes there is only half an hour's notice. We had even less than

half an hour this morning! Simon Hughes, thank you.

So the price of energy is the big battle ground in politics at the

moment. 72% of people say that high bills will influence the way they

vote at the next election. Ed Miliband has promised a price freeze

after the next election, but will the coalition turned the tables on

Labour, with its proposal to roll back green levies. Caroline Flint

joins us from Sheffield. It looks like the coalition will be able to

take ?50 of energy bills, by removing green levies. It is quite

clear that different parts of the government are running round waking

up to the fact that the public feel that this government has not done

enough to listen to their concerns. Last week, there was a classic case

of the Prime Minister making up policy literally at the dispatch

box. Let's see what they say in the autumn statement. The truth is,

whatever the debate around green levies, and I have always said we

should look at value for money at those green levies. Our argument is

about acknowledging there is something wrong with the way the

market works, and the way those companies are regulated. Behind our

freeze for 20 months is a package of proposals to reform this market I

understand that, but you cannot tell as the details about that. I can.

You cannot give us the details about reforming the market. We are going

to do three things, and I think I said this last time I was on the

programme. First, we are going to separate out the generation side

from the supply side within the big six. Secondly, we will have a energy

pool, or power exchange, where all energy will have to be traded in

that pool. Thirdly, we will establish a tougher regulator,

because Ofgem is increasingly being seen as not doing the job right I

notice that you didn't mention any reform of the current green and

social taxes on the energy bill Is it Labour's policy to maintain the

existing green levies? In 2011, the government chose to get rid of warm

front, which was the publicly funded through tracks a scheme to support

new installation. When they got rid of that, it was the first time we

had a government since the 70s that didn't have such a policy. What is

your policy? We voted against that because we believe it is wrong. We

believe that the eco-scheme, a government intervention which is ?47

of the ?112 on our bills each year, is expensive, bureaucratic and isn't

going to the fuel poor. I am up for a debate on these issues. I am up

for a discussion on what the government should do and what these

energy companies should do. We cannot let Cameron all the energy

companies off the hook from the way in which they organise their

businesses, and expect us to pay ever increasing rises in our bills.

There is ?112 of green levies on our bills at the moment. Did you vote

against any of them? We didn't, but what I would say ease these were

government imposed levies. When they got rid of the government funded

programme, Warm Front, they introduced the eco-scheme. The

eco-project is one of the ones where the energy companies are saying

it's too bureaucratic, and it is proving more expensive than

government estimates, apparently doubled the amount the government

thought. These things are all worth looking at, but don't go to the

heart of the issue. According to official figures, on current plans,

which you support, which you voted for, households will be paying 1%

more per unit of electricity by 2030. It puts your temporary freeze

as just a blip. You support a 4 % rise in our bills. I support making

sure we secure for the future access to energy that we can grow here in

the UK, whether it is through nuclear, wind or solar, or other

technologies yet to be developed. We should protect ourselves against

energy costs we cannot control. The truth is, it is every fair for you

to put that point across, and I accept that, but we need to hear the

other side about the cost for bill payers if we didn't invest in new,

indigenous sources of energy supply for the future, which, in the long

run, will be cheaper and more secure, and create the jobs we

need. I think it is important to have a debate about these issues,

but they have to be seen in the right context. If we stay stuck in

the past, we will pay more and we will not create jobs. How can you

criticise the coalition's plans for a new nuclear station, when jeering

13 years of a Labour government you did not invest in a single nuclear

plant? You sold off all our nuclear technology to foreign companies

Energy provision was put out to private hands and there has been no

obstacle in British law against ownership outside the UK. Part of

this is looking ahead. Because your previous track record is so bad

What we did decide under the previous government, we came to the

view, and there were discussions in our party about this, that we did

need to support a nuclear future. At the time of that, David Cameron

was one of those saying that nuclear power should be a last

resort. And as you said, the Liberals did not support it. We

stood up for that. We set in train the green light of 10 sites,

including Hinkley Point, for nuclear development. I am glad to

see that is making progress and we should make more progress over the

years ahead. We took a tough decision when other governments had

not done. You did not build a new nuclear station. When you get back

into power, will you build HS2? That has not had a blank cheque

from the Labour Party. I am in favour of good infrastructure. Are

you in favour of?, answer the question? I have answered the

question. It does not have a blank cheque. If the prices are too high,

we will review the decision when we come back to vote on it. We will be

looking at it closely. We have to look for value for money and how it

benefits the country. Have you stocked up on jumpers this winter?

I am perfectly all right with my clothing. What is important, it is

ridiculous for the Government to suggest that the answer to the loss

of trust in the energy companies is to put on another jumper.

The coalition has taken a long time to come up with anything that can

trump Ed Miliband's simple freezing energy prices, vote for us. Are

they on the brink of doing so? I do not think so. They have had a

problem that has dominated the debate, talking about GDP, the

figures came out on Friday and said, well, and went back to talking

about energy. My problem with what David Cameron proposes is he agrees

with the analysis that the Big Six make too many profits. He wants to

move the green levies into general taxation, so that he looks like he

is protecting the profits of the energy companies. If the coalition

can say they will take money off the bills, does that change the

game? I do not think the Liberal Democrats are an obstacle to

unwinding the green levies. I think Nick Clegg is open to doing a deal,

but the real obstacle is the carbon reduction targets that we signed up

to during the boom years. They were ambitious I thought at the time

From that we have the taxes and clocking up of the supply-side of

the economy. Unless he will revise that, and build from first

principles a new strategy, he cannot do more than put a dent into

green levies. He might say as I have got to ?50 now and if you

voters in in an overall majority, I will look up what we have done in

the better times and give you more. I am sure he will do that. It might

be ?50 of the Bill, but it will be ?50 on your general taxation bill,

which would be more progressive They will find it. We will never

see it in general taxation. The problem for the Coalition on what

Ed Miliband has done is that it is five weeks since he made that

speech and it is all we are talking about. David Cameron spent those

five weeks trying to work out whether Ed Miliband is a Marxist or

whether he is connected to Middle Britain. That is why Ed Miliband

set the agenda. The coalition are squabbling among themselves,

looking petulant, on energy, and on schools. Nobody is taking notice of

the fact the economy is under way, the recovery is under way. Ed

Miliband has made the weather on this.

It UK has a relaxed attitude about selling off assets based -- to

companies based abroad. But this week we have seen the Swiss owner

of one of Scotland's largest industrial sites, Grangemouth, come

within a whisker of closing part of it down. So should we care whether

British assets have foreign owners? Britain might be a nation of

homeowners, but we appear to have lost our taste for owning some of

our biggest businesses. These are among the crown jewels sold off in

the past three decades to companies based abroad. Roughly half of

Britain's essential services have overseas owners. The airport owner,

British Airports Authority, is owned by a Spanish company.

Britain's largest water company Thames, is owned by a consortium

led by an Australian bank. Four out of six of Britain's biggest energy

companies are owned by overseas giants, and one of these, EDF

Energy, which is owned by the French state, is building Britain's

first nuclear power plant in a generation, backed by Chinese

investors. It's a similar story for train operator Arriva, bought by a

company owned by the German state. So part of the railways privatised

by the British government was effectively re-nationalised by the

German government. But does it matter who owns these companies as

long as the lights stay on, the trains run on time, and we can

still eat Cadbury's Dairy Milk? We are joined by the general

secretary of the RMT, Bob Crow, and by venture capitalist Julie Meyer.

They go head to head. Have we seen the consequences of

relying for essential services to be foreign-owned? Four of the Big

Six energy companies, Grangemouth, owned by a tax exile in Switzerland.

It is not good. I do not think there is a cause and effect

relationship between foreign ownership and consumer prices. That

is not the right comparison. We need to be concerned about

businesses represented the future, businesses we are good at

innovating for example in financial services and the UK has a history

of building businesses, such as Monotypes. If we were not creating

businesses here -- Monotise. Like so many businesses creating

products and services and creating the shareholders. Should we allow

hour essential services to be in foreign ownership? It was

demonstrated this week at Grangemouth. If you do not own the

industry, you do not own it. The MPs of this country and the

politicians in Scotland have no say, they were consultants.

Multinationals decide whether to shut a company down. If that had

been Unite union, they are the ones who saved the jobs. They

capitulated. They will come back, like they have for the past 150

years, and capture again what they lost. If it had closed, they would

have lost their jobs for ever. If the union had called the members up

without a ballot for strike action, there would have been uproar. This

person in Switzerland can decide to shut the entire industry down. The

coalition, the Labour Party, as well, when Labour was in government,

they played a role of allowing industries to go abroad, and it

should be returned to public ownership. Nestor. It has

demonstrated that the Net comes from new businesses. We must not

be... When Daly motion was stopped by the French government to be sold,

it was an arrow to the heart of French entrepreneurs. We must not

create that culture in the UK. Every train running in France is

built in France. 90% of the trains running in Germany are built in

Germany. In Japan, it has to be built in that country, and now an

energy company in France is reducing its nuclear capability in

its own country and wants to make profits out of the British industry

to put back into it state industry. That happened with the railway

industry. They want to make money at the expense of their own state

companies. We sold off energy production. How did we end up in a

position where our nuclear capacity will be built by a company owned by

a socialist date, France, and funded by a communist one, China,

for vital infrastructure? I am not suggesting that is in the national

interest. I am saying we can pick any one example and say it is a

shame. The simple matter of the fact is the owners are having to

make decisions. Not just Grangemouth, businesses are making

decisions about what is the common good. Not just in the shareholders'

interest. For employees, customers. What is in the common good when

prices go up by 10% and the reason is that 20 years ago they shut

every coal pit down in this country, the Germans kept theirs open and

subsidised it and now we have the Germans doing away with nuclear

power and they have coal. Under the Labour government, in 2008, the

climate change Act was passed. Well before that, and you know yourself,

they shut down the coal mines to smash the National Union of

Mineworkers because they dared to stand up for people in their

community. Even if we wanted to reopen the coalmines, it would be

pointless. Under the 2008 Act, we are not meant to burn more coal

The can, as if you spent some of the profits, you could have carbon

catch up. That does not exist on a massive scale. You are arguing the

case, Julie Meyer, for entrepreneurs to come to this

country. Even Bob Crow is not against that. We are trying to

argue, should essential services be in foreign hands? Not those in

Silicon round about doing start ups. I am trying to draw a broader

principle than just energy. Something like broadband services,

also important to the functioning of the economy. I believe in the

UK's ability to innovate. When we have businesses that play off

broadband companies to get the best prices for consumers. These new

businesses and business models are the best way. Not to control, but

to influence. It will be a disaster. Prices will go up and up as a

result. Nissan in Sunderland, a Japanese factory, some of the best

cars and productivity. You want that to be nationalised and bring

it down to the standard of British Leyland? It is not bring it down to

the standard. The car manufacturing base in this country has been

wrecked. We make more cars now for 20 years -- than in 20 years.

Ford's Dagenham produced some of the best cars in the world. Did you

buy one? I cannot drive. They moved their plants to other countries

where it was cheaper labour. Would you nationalise Nissan? There

should be one car industry that produces cars for people. This week

the EU summit was about Angela Merkel's mobile phone being tapped,

they call it a handy. We sent Adam to Brussels and told him to ignore

the business about phone-tapping and investigate the Prime

Minister's policy on Europe instead. I have come to my first EU summit to

see how David Cameron is getting on with his strategy to claim power was

back from Brussels. Got any powers back yet? Yes! Which ones? Sadly,

his fellow leaders were not as forthcoming. Chancellor, are you

going to give any powers back to Britain? Has David Cameron asked you

for any powers back? The president of the commission just laughed, and

listen to the Lithuanian President. How is David Cameron's renegotiation

strategy going? What's that? He wants powers back for Britain. No

one knows what powers David Cameron actually wants. Even our usual

allies, like Sweden, are bit baffled. We actually don't know yet

what is going through the UK membership. We will await the

finalisation of that first. You should ask him, and then tell us!

Here is someone who must know, the Dutch Prime Minister, he is doing

what we are doing, carrying out a review of the EU powers, known as

competencies in the jargon, before negotiating to get some back. Have

you had any negotiations with David Cameron over what powers you can

bring back from Brussels? That is not on the agenda of this summit.

Have you talked to him about it This is not on the schedule for this

summit. David Cameron's advises tummy it is

because he is playing the long game. -- David Cameron's advisers tell me.

At this summit, there was a task force discussing how to cut EU red

tape. Just how long this game is was explained to me outside the summit,

by the leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament. I think

the behind-the-scenes negotiations will start happening when the new

commissioner is appointed later next year. I think the detailed

negotiations will start to happen bubbly after the UK general

election. That is when we will start getting all of the detail of the

horse trading, and real, Lake night negotiations. Angela Merkel seems

keen to rewrite the EU's main treaties to deal with changes in the

Eurozone, and that is the mechanism David Cameron would use to

renegotiate our membership. Everyone here says his relationship with the

German Chancellor is strong. So after days in this building, here is

how it looks. David Cameron has a mountain to climb. It is climbable,

but he isn't even in the foothills yet. Has he even started packing his

bags for the trip? Joining us now, a man who knows a

thing or two about the difficulties Prime Minister 's face in Europe.

Former Deputy Prime Minister, Michael Heseltine. We are nine

months from David Cameron's defining speech on EU renegotiation. Can you

think of one area of progress? I don't know. And you don't know. And

that's a good thing. Why is it a good thing? Because the real

progress goes on behind closed doors. And only the most naive,

because the real progress goes on behind closed doors. Because, in

this weary world, you and I, Andrew, know full well that the moment you

say, I making progress, people say, where? And the machine goes to work

to show that the progress isn't enough. So you are much better off

making progress as best you can in the privacy of private diplomacy. It

is a long journey ahead. In this long journey, do you have a clear

sense of the destination? Do you have a clear sense of what powers Mr

Cameron wants to negotiate? I have a clear sense of the destination,

which is a victory for the campaign that he will win to stay inside the

European community. That is the agenda, and I have total support for

that. I understand that, but if he is incapable of getting any tangible

sign of renegotiation, if he is able only to do what Wilson did in 1 75,

which was to get a couple of token changes to our membership status, he

goes into that referendum without much to argue for. He has everything

to argue for. He's got Britain's vital role as a major contributor to

the community. He's got Britain s self interest as a major

beneficiary, and Britain's vital role in the City of London. He's got

everything to argue for. He could argue for that now. He could have a

referendum now. He doesn't want one now. I haven't any doubt that he

will come back with something to talk about. But it may be slightly

different to what his critics, the UK isolationist party people, want.

He may, for example, have found that allies within the community want

change as well, and he may secure changes in the way the community

works, which would be a significant argument within the referendum

campaign. Let me give you an example. I think it is a scandal

that the European Commission don't secure the auditing of some of the

accounts. Perhaps that could be on the agenda. He might find a lot of

contributing countries, like Germany, like Colin and, would be

very keen. -- like Holland. David vetoed the increase in the European

budgets the other day, and he had a lot of allies. So working within

Europe on the things that people paying the European bills want is

fertile ground. Is John Major right to call for a windfall tax on the

energy companies? John is a very cautious fellow. He doesn't say

things without thinking them out. So I was surprised that he went for a

windfall tax. First of all, it is retrospective, and secondly, it is

difficult to predict what the consequences will be. I am, myself,

more interested in the other part of his speech, which was talking about

the need for the Conservative Party to seek a wider horizon, to

recognise what is happening to the Conservative Party in the way in

which its membership is shrinking into a southeastern enclave. Are you

in favour of a windfall tax? I am not in favour of increasing any

taxes. Do you share Iain Duncan Smith's point of view on welfare

reform? I think Iain Duncan Smith is right. It is extremely difficult to

do, but he is right to try. I think public opinion is behind him, but it

isn't easy, because on the fringe of these issues there are genuine hard

luck stories, and they are the ones that become the focus of attention

the moment you introduce change It requires a lot of political skill to

negotiate your way through that But isn't Iain Duncan Smith right to

invoke the beverage principle, that you should be expected to make a

contribution for the welfare you depend on? Yes, he is. I will let

you get your Sunday lunch. Thanks for joining us.

Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be

Thank you, Andrew and welcome to the part of the programme that's just

for us here in the west. Coming up this week... Socialism is not a

dirty word. That's according to the former Labour Minister and Bristol

MP who tells us why, as he gets older, he moves even further to the

left. So why doesn't his party agree with him? Joining us today is the

Conservative MP from North Wiltshire, James Gray and the Labour

leader on Bristol City Council, Helen Holland. Helen, this week we

heard about Liverpool scrapping bus lanes and Swindon reducing parking

charges. Is it time Bristol became more motorist friendly? I think the

Mayor was asked a question about whether he would be copying

Liverpool and for once, we had a one word answer and that answer was no.

I think... It is about policies that suit the place. I think that Bristol

is one of the most congested cities in the country. Managing that number

of cars has got to be a priority. In Swindon, they got rid of traffic

wardens and it helped traffic flow. That might have been the case, but

Swindon is not Bristol. I do not think it would be the right way to

go, although I do think that when we do introduce measures they have to

be a lot more consensual. There has to be a lot more consensus. I want

to talk about energy prices. Ed Miliband has called for a freeze on

the cost of gas and electricity He has wrong`footed David Cameron. That

is a total corn. You cannot freeze prices without nationalisation. `` a

total corn. You cannot freeze them and to him saying that is just

trying to mislead the public and people know it cannot be done. We

need to do something, but David Cameron has come up with an idea,

and much better idea though is to find more energy and that is why I

welcome the new nuclear announcement this week. I would like to see more

oil being drilled in the North Sea. I would like to see fracking coming

in. If you have got more energy it costs less. I do not think they

would be anything wrong with fracking in my constituency. He was

the politician who opened a nuclear power station in the west and saved

Concorde. Tony Benn is Bristol's best known former MP, a socialist

who critics say made Labour unelectable because of his hard left

views. He's now 88 and has just published his final volume of

diaries. I have been to speak to him about his life in politics. Have you

feared ever so slightly to the right as you have got older? In general I

think I have moved to the left. I know many people do that, I have

done at the other way around. You are one of the last remaining

full`blown socialists I guess in British politics. Does it feel like

that to you? Know, if you take the word socialist used as a term of

abuse, the most socialist thing we ever did was the National Health

Service and it is the most popular thing that we did. Good health was

then available to everyone. Socialism is an understanding of the

world. It is a question of how you understand what is going on in the

world. What sort of society would July? A lot of people think about

you and they think about process `` protest. I think all advances have

been made with democracy. When democracy works, progress is made.

It is about advancing public control of services so that they are

accountable. I think for me, democracy is a very good idea. If

you have got no money, you cannot do very much for yourself. You have got

the vote, you can vote for the things you need. I think democracy

is a good idea and I am a Democrat. I think that socialism is about the

extension of democracy. You have defeated the House of Lords, you

have defeated the courts, you have change the constitution of this

country by your own power! That is a very great achievement! You say you

were a good friend of Ralph Miller band. He was accused in the Daily

Mail of hating his country `` Ed Miliband's father. What are your

views about your country? I love Britain but I feel myself

increasingly at odds. Are you patriotic? I love my country and oh

a lot to my country. `` I owe a lot to my country. Tony Benn is in the

road, come and meet him. If you were to stand in Bristol again, you would

not have had much chance `` much of a chance, because they are going for

all women short lists. I am in favour of a different solution.

Every constituency should have two candidates, a man and a woman. We

would have more MPs, but I think that is a better way. Once you start

saying to a party, whoever you have, you cannot have them if they are the

wrong sex, I think that is wrong, I am not in favour. Having been a

member of Parliament for 32 years, I was in the House of Commons that

introduced the National Health Service Bill... Looking back at your

life and politics, are you confident that you were a force for good? I

tried to be. I said what I believed in and I believed what I said. I did

what I said I would do when I had the chance. I have to stand by what

I did. If I know that I made mistakes, I would avoid them in the

future by learning from the past. I learned a lot from Bristol, I loved

the city. As a 25`year`old Labour candidate back then and then for 20

years, I represented the city and came to learn to love it and its

influences. I am indebted to them. You are 88? Yes. Not terribly old by

the standards today. I have my doubts about living to 100. I would

like to. How would you like to be remembered? I would like to be

remembered for what I have done The key thing, especially now I am old,

is to encourage people. If when I die, people say that Tony Benn

encourage me, that will be the greatest tribute that could possibly

be. Thank you. Did he inspire and encourage you? When I joined the

Labour Party, Tony Benn was my MP and I think like a lot of people, we

hold him with huge affection. Why is the Labour Party so different now?

He is right, some of the greatest achievements of the Labour Party

like the NHS, like the minimum wage, about civil partnerships, all of

those great things, are because people listened to what it was that

the electorate wanted. Why are there are no Tony Benn is coming through

the ranks? I think there are. We do have debates. Social media, all of

those things have changed the context of debate and you do have to

listen and take people with you Is he too left`wing? Was he so wrong

about a nationalised eight? He opened a nuclear power station ``

nationalisation. Now we are going to the French and ask them to build our

power station. Tony Benn, he was one of the nicest people I ever met A

complete and utter gentleman. Talked total nonsense, but he was a lovely

man and I love the way he said it. I think it is fantastic we will have

it, Labour talked about it, we have actually said we will have nuclear

power and we will bring it in. The industry was under public

ownership, now it is not. I am glad that we are bringing in overseas

investment. That is fantastic news. French and Chinese investment is

good. They know there is a future in this country and they will make

money. I am glad that we are doing that rather than fooling around with

renationalisation. Was he right about public ownership? He believed

they should all be accountable through public ownership. Why does

Labour not agree? Look at energy, it is extraordinary that David Cameron

is prepared to gamble on the prices that we might have. He is not

prepared to freeze prices. Regulation is something we need to

talk about. At a recent Labour Party conference, we talked about

re`regulating public transport. Those are the discussions. I can

bear the world nationalisation. `` word. I think in terms of the Royal

Mail, what we have seen happen has been a disaster. Thank you. It was

great to meet him. We've just heard from Tony Benn about his dislike of

all`women short lists to elect politicians. But one hundred years

on from riots by Suffragettes in Bristol, there are still concerns

that there are not enough women or ethnic minority candidates being

elected to council chambers and Westminster. Charlotte Callen

reports. Marching for equality. One hundred years ago, these women

couldn't vote, let alone stand as candidates in elections. Some of

these suffragettes were known as militants, angry at society and

politicians and prepared to go to extreme lengths, on the streets in

Bristol, to be heard. The suffragettes burnt down a sports

pavilion at the University. They left a message protesting about the

arrest of a woman called Mary Richardson. When the students found

out about this, about 300 students rushed down and started wrecking the

shop. Just a few years after the riots here, women did start to get

the right to vote, but many believed the suffragettes would still be

disappointed by just how far we have come in terms of equality in

politics. I think they `` we can be confident we would not be impressed

by the numbers. We do not have parity. Labour's answer to gender

inequality? They introduced all`women short lists and the Lib

Dems have suggested they may do the same. But would the suffragettes

approve? I think in some ways, I can imagine some of the women would not

like that idea. They were very much about being equal to men, going out

and doing what they were doing and they would have found, they might

have found an element of this as patronising. There are over 150

female MPs in Parliament. But with just 27 MPs classed as being from

'ethnic minority communities' is this where the 'new equality

campaigners' should focus their attention? The former Labour MP for

Gloucester, Parmjit Dhanda, thinks so. In some ways it was great to

look and sound different to lots of people, but as you get older, you

have a wife, you have young children, there are particular

challenges with being very visible and different and seem to be

different. There were certainly challenges in the election campaign.

I think stuff that was directed at me, which may not have been

deflected if I looked or my background was different. He lost

his seat at the last election and says it is time to address some of

the problems he faced during his political career. So he's given

evidence to a cross`party group on discrimination in politics. There

was a paid's severed head left outside our front door `` pig. That

makes you think. You expect that rough and tumble as Emperor of

Parliament, it goes with the territory, although I do not think I

was ever really so thick`skinned that I could just ignore things like

that. Councillor Hibaq Jama is the first Somali woman to be elected to

the city council in Bristol. It s thought as many as 20,000 somalians

now live in the city. But she says Ukip, who came second to her in the

Lawrence Hill ward, ran a clearly anti`Somali campaign against her. I

think the progress we have made is evident with the likes of me

standing for election and winning. I do think that in 2013, our aims need

to be much more ambitious and we need to be much more bold about

addressing the inequality that stands and strangled our political

system. Many of these women were imprisoned, force`fed and

marginalised because of their political views. What `` much

pleasure was expressed at the actions taken by the students. There

was not much support? Not amongst some levels of society. There was

quite a lot of animosity. There s no doubt, since 1913, Britain has come

a long way. But campaigners still believe we're many years away from

our council chambers and Commons benches mirroring society at large.

Joining us is Brenda Weston from Equality South West, an organisation

which works for change but is closing down this month due to a

lack of funding. Do you think our politicians should be more

representative of real life? Our work is far from done. We hear how

much people will miss us and the work that we do. In what way are

women now disadvantaged? I think if the suffragettes saw 100 years ago

what is happening now, they would be out on the streets again. Women are

being objectified in terrible ways through media, they are not properly

represented on councils, at any level of government or at national

government. Is this something you recognise? Yes. A report shows that

actually the government's cuts are a disadvantage in women far more. Have

you felt disadvantaged in your career? Absolutely. If you look back

to the time when Tony Benn encourage me to become a member of the Labour

Party and then to start standing for positions, it was quite unusual

especially as I was much younger, for a young woman to get any kind of

position. That is not about saying we should have been there by right,

it was just that the system disadvantaged women as it does the

black and minority ethnic community. I think that Hibaq Jama is right. It

is not just because we want the council chamber or the House of

Commons to reflect the population of the country, it is about why do we?

It is about the challenge that we face. What difference does it make

to the public if there are elected representative is a man or a woman?

I think there are lots of people who would disagree. Whilst you do not

have diversity, you do not have council chambers reflecting the

communities they represent, there are people in those communities who

feel disenfranchising, whose interest are not represented. I do

not agree. I am opposed to discrimination. There must not be

discrimination against women or ethnic minorities. I think that the

job of an MP is to be the best you can be. I represent 38,000 women,

quite well I hope, a number of people from different racial

backgrounds, I represent intelligent and stupid people, you do not

necessarily have to have an exact match. I want to see the right

people who work hard for the local area. Do you have to be stupid to

represent a stupid person? You can represent everybody. Posit the ``

Michael positive disconnection is terrible. Even Tony Benn said that?

I disagree with Tony Benn. I think if what James is saying is correct,

we would not have inequality. We have it in so many ways. Thank you.

And now for a brief round`up of some of the other political news in the

West this week in just 60 seconds. They've lost money, but reckon it's

good for business. It's three years since Swindon cut parking charges

and traffic wardens. The council say their car`friendly approach has

boosted the town centre. Swindon is prepare friendly place to come. For

parking, you cannot go wrong. The South West is falling behind the

rest of England when it comes to teenagers going to university. The

national trend is sharply up, but in parts of Somerset rates have fallen,

while in South Bristol just 18% go on to higher education. The

government is facing a legal challenge after agreeing to a

further eight weeks of badger culling in Gloucestershire.

Campaigners say it breaches official policy on tackling bovine TB. And

there's been more criticism of government plans to reduce the

number of regular soldiers and replace them with reservists. Former

Defence Secretary Liam Fox is the latest to speak out. Let us pick up

on the plans to reduce the regular Army further. James Gray, you've

voted against this. I am a strong supporter of the Territorial Army

and they do a great job. 10% of all people who have been in Afghanistan

and Iraq are from the Territorial Army. I welcome the fact that we

will increase the numbers and the government has spent ?2 billion on

improving the Territorial Army. How can we cut the regular Army by

30,000 people won't we have not yet found the new people to go in? That

is why I rebelled. I need the government to hold, stop laying

soldiers of, until such time as we have the reserves to replace them. I

do agree. It is interesting that a number of people rebelled against

the government because they are do not listening to the advice that the

people in the Ministry of Defence are saying. I think that it

potentially could leave us very vulnerable and I think it is quite

right that Army recruitment is not going well, they have not met the

targets and we cannot just fill those places with the Territorial

Army, although I also have great admiration for them. I think we need

a proper, fully staffed up service and we need the Territorial Army to

be there. We have to leave it there. Thank you to my guests. If you would

like to watch the interview with Tony Benn again it will be available

free school area for into that category. Thank you.

Is Labour about to drop its support category. Thank you.

Is Labour about to drop its support for High Speed 2, a rail line the

party approved while in government? for High Speed 2, a rail line the

these green shoots? These are all questions for The Week Ahead.

So, HS2. Miss Flint wouldn't answer the question. She's in northern MP

too. Ed Balls is comparing it to the Millennium Dome.

too. Ed Balls is comparing it to the minute's silence for HS2? It will

not be quite as crude as that. They will not stand up and say, we

not be quite as crude as that. They senior Labour person said to me it

would be a bit senior Labour person said to me it

that Gordon Brown and Ed Balls set for the euro back in 97. They will

be chucking lots of questions into the air, and the questions will

create doubt, and will create the grounds for Labour to say, at some

point, we think there is a much much better way of spending the money. It

isn't ?42 billion, because that includes a contingency. Let's see

what Peter Mandelson had to say about HS2. He was in the government

when Labour supported it. Frankly, there was too much of the argument

that if everyone else has got a high-speed train, we should have won

too. Regardless of need, regardless of cost, and regardless of

alternatives. As a party, to be frank, we didn't feel like being

trumped by the zeal of the then opposition's support for the

high-speed train. We wanted, if anything, to upstage them. So they

didn't really need it, and we're only talking about ?50 billion. Why

would you take a decision involving ?50 billion in a serious way? For

David Cameron, if it becomes clear Labour is against it, he cannot

proceed. He indicated last week that he wouldn't proceed if the certainty

wasn't there. For Labour, HS2 is really a debate about the deficit by

proxy. They think that if you don't go ahead with HS2, that releases

tens of billions of pounds to spend on other things, such as public

services, without going into boring. I don't think that works because

there was a difference between cancelling something that already

exists to pay for something else, and cancelling something that does

not yet exist and will be paid for over decades to pay for something

here and now. Can Labour do this? I know that the line will be, we are

not going to build this railway because we are going to build

200,000 houses a year. Can they do this without political cost? I think

there will be political costs, but they will play this card of we have

changed our mind. I think Cameron's line has been very clever, saying we

cannot do it without labour. You can put it in two ways. Sorry, we cannot

go ahead with it, but Labour has ruined your chance of prosperity, or

they can tie themselves to it, and then Labour cannot attack it on

great grounds when costs do spire. You can write Labour's script right

now. They can say, if we were in charge, the financial management

would be much better. This raises some really important questions for

the government. They have utterly failed to make the case for HS2

There is a real case to make. Between London and Birmingham it is

about capacity not speed. North of Birmingham, it is about

connectivity. It is a simple case to make, but it is only in the last

month that they have been making that case. It shows really terrible

complacency in the coalition that they haven't done that. We'll HS2

happen or not? I think it will. For the reasons that Nick outlined,

there is not of a constituency for it amongst Northern areas. -- there

is enough of a constituency for it. There is private investment as well.

It isn't like Heathrow. I say no, because I think Labour will drop

their support for it. Caroline Flint said she was in favour of the

concept of trains generally, but will it go further than that? It is

difficult to see how it will go ahead if Labour will not support it

after setting five tests that it clearly will not meet. Some will

breathe a sigh of relief. Some will say, even in the 20th century, we

cannot build a proper rail network. The economy was another big story of

the week. We had those GDP figures. There is a video the Tories are

releasing. The world premiere is going to be here. Where's the red

carpet? It gives an indication of how the Tories will hand Mr Miliband

and labour in the run-up to the election. Let's have a look at it.

These graphics are even worse than the ones we use on our show! How on

earth would you expect that to go viral? It did have a strange feel

about it. It doesn't understand the Internet at all. Who is going to

read those little screens between it? Put a dog in it! However,

putting that aside, I have no idea that that is going to go viral. The

Tories are now operating - and I say Tories rather than the coalition -

on the assumption that the economy is improving and will continue to

improve, and that that will become more obvious as 2014 goes on. We

just saw their how they will fight the campaign. Yes, and at the

crucial moment, you will reach the point where wages. To rise at a

faster pace than inflation, and then people will start to, in the words

of Harold Macmillan, feel that they have never had it so good. That is

the key moment. If the economy is growing, there is a rule of thumb

that the government should get a benefit. But it doesn't always work

like that. The fundamental point here is that Ed Miliband has had a

great month. He has totally set the agenda. He has set the agenda with

something - freezing energy prices - that may not work. That video shows

that the Conservatives want to get the debate back to the

fundamentals. That this is a party that told us for three years that

this coalition was telling us to -- was taking us to hell on a handcart.

That doesn't seem to have happened. The energy price was a very clever

thing, at the party conference season, which now seems years ago.

They saw that the recovery was going to happen, so they changed the

debate to living standards. Some economists are now privately

expecting growth to be 3% next year, which was inconceivable for five

months ago. If growth is 3% next year, living standards will start to

rise again. Where does Labour go then? I would go further, and say

that even though Ed Miliband has made a small political victory on

living standards, it hasn't registered in the polls. Those polls

have been contracted since April -- have been contracting since April.

That macro economic story matters more than the issue of living

standards. The interesting thing about the recovery is it confounds

everybody. No one was predicting, not the Treasury, not the media not

the IMF, not the academics, and the only people I can think of... I fit

-- I thought they knew everything! The only people I know who did are

one adviser who is very close to George Osborne, and the clever hedge

fund is who were buying British equities back in January. Because

the Treasury's record is so appalling, no one believe them, but

they were saying around February, March this year, that by the end of

the summer, the recovery would be gathering momentum. For once, they

turned out to be right! They said that the economy would be going gang

bust is! Where did the new Tory voters come from? I agree, if the

economic recovery continues, the coalition will be stronger. But

where will they get new voters from? For people who sign up to help to

buy, they will be locked into nice mortgages at a low interest rate,

and just as you go into a general election, if you are getting 3%

growth and unemployment is down the Bank of England will have to review

their interest rates. People who are getting nice interest rates now may

find that it is not like that in a few months time. The point John

Major was making implicitly was that Mrs Thatcher could speak to people

on low incomes. John Major could not speak to them -- John Major could

speak to them. But this coalition cannot speak to them. This idea

about the reshuffle was that David Cameron wanted more Northern voices,

more women, to make it look like it was not a party of seven men. When

David Cameron became leader, John Major said, I do not speak very

often, but when I do, I will help you, because I think you are good

thing and I do not want to be like Margaret Thatcher. But that speech

was clearly a lament for the party he believed that David Cameron was

going to lead and create, but that isn't happening. And energy prices

continue into this coming week. We have the companies going before a

select committee. My information is they are sending along the secondary

division, not the boss. How can they get along -- get away with that I

got the letter through from British Gas this week explaining why my

bills are going up, and at no point since this became a story have any

of the big companies handled it well. I will have to leave it there.

Make sure you pay your bill! That's it for today. The Daily Politics is

back on BBC Two tomorrow. I will be back here on BBC One next Sunday.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it is The Sunday Politics.