03/11/2013 Sunday Politics West


03/11/2013

Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Unite leader Len McCluskey, the head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, and shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

:00:40.:00:53.

Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

:00:54.:00:57.

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

:00:58.:01:02.

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

:01:03.:01:06.

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

:01:07.:01:11.

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

:01:12.:01:16.

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

:01:17.:01:18.

should be covered up. In the West, boosting biddies

:01:19.:01:31.

profits. You can spend up to ?1 0 every 20 seconds in these

:01:32.:01:34.

authority is investigating -- investing thousands of pounds in a

:01:35.:01:39.

GPS tracking system to keep tabs on its staff.

:01:40.:01:48.

With me as always, the best and the brightest political panel, Helen

:01:49.:01:52.

Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who will be tweeting their

:01:53.:01:55.

humiliating climb-down is what they got wrong last week in the

:01:56.:02:00.

programme. If this can happen it to a Cabinet minister, what hope is

:02:01.:02:07.

there for anyone else? Thus the Home Affairs Select Committee concluded

:02:08.:02:10.

what many already thought about the treatment of Andrew Mitchell by

:02:11.:02:14.

three self-styled PC plebs. They met him to clear the air over what did

:02:15.:02:19.

or did not happen when he was prevented from ramming his bike

:02:20.:02:22.

through the Downing Street gates. But the officers gave the media and

:02:23.:02:27.

inaccurate account of that meeting. Two of them are even accused of

:02:28.:02:34.

misleading the Commons committee. The Independent Police Complaints

:02:35.:02:35.

Commission will now reopen there enquiry. This is not a story about

:02:36.:02:41.

Andrew Mitchell, it is about the police. Keith Vaz is often in high

:02:42.:02:48.

dudgeon and this is the highest dad and I have seen him in for some

:02:49.:02:53.

time. They could be held for contempt of Parliament and

:02:54.:02:55.

technically they could be sent to prison. It has blown up into an

:02:56.:03:01.

enormous story. I do not know what is worse, the police trying to

:03:02.:03:06.

stitch up a Cabinet member and try to mislead the media or the

:03:07.:03:09.

incompetence they have done it from day one. That is quite good. I would

:03:10.:03:18.

sleep more soundly at night if I knew the pleas were good at this. It

:03:19.:03:23.

is the incompetence that shocks me. And this is just a sideshow. We are

:03:24.:03:28.

still waiting on the main report as to what exactly happened outside

:03:29.:03:32.

Downing Street gates. But that not will be good for the police either.

:03:33.:03:37.

The file has gone from the Metropolitan police to the CPS, so

:03:38.:03:42.

we are limited about what we can say. This is about the police

:03:43.:03:48.

Federation. They were set up under statute in 1990 as a deal in which a

:03:49.:03:54.

police would not go on strike. This is a political campaign to get a

:03:55.:03:58.

Cabinet minister out and the legacy of this is the police Federation

:03:59.:04:02.

will have to be reformed. We will keep an eye on it. They were Ed

:04:03.:04:08.

Miliband's union backers, they swung the Labour leadership for him in

:04:09.:04:15.

2010. Now the Unite union looks like his biggest headache. The Sunday

:04:16.:04:19.

Times has seen extracts of the report into the alleged vote rigging

:04:20.:04:22.

to select a Labour candidate in Falkirk. There was evidence of

:04:23.:04:30.

coercion and Gregory as well as deliberate attempt to frustrate the

:04:31.:04:34.

enquiry. We will be speaking to Len McCluskey, the Unite union's General

:04:35.:04:39.

Secretary, in a moment. First out the saga began an almost ended up

:04:40.:04:46.

with the loss of 800 jobs at a petrochemical plant in Grangemouth.

:04:47.:04:50.

Unite were key players in the Grangemouth dispute and the union

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headed by Len McCluskey has come under fire for its intimidator Tariq

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tactics. In one instance demonstrators complete with an

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inflatable rat picketed the home of a INEOS director. The police were

:05:03.:05:10.

called. It was part of a strategy the union called leverage. But

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turning up at people's houses seems to represent an escalation. At the

:05:17.:05:21.

centre of the rout was Steve in deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS

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launched an investigation into him as he was suspected of using company

:05:27.:05:30.

time to engineer the selection of labour's candidate in Falkirk. That

:05:31.:05:35.

candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans

:05:36.:05:42.

resigned last week and denies any wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic

:05:43.:05:52.

climb-down by Unite union. Len McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to

:05:53.:05:58.

the Sunday Times we now know what is in this labour report on the Falkirk

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vote rigging. Forgery, coercion trickery, manipulation. You must be

:06:08.:06:11.

ashamed of how Unite union behaved in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article

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is lazy journalism. There is nothing new in the article. This was all

:06:20.:06:23.

dealt with by the Labour Party in the summer. We rejected those

:06:24.:06:29.

allegations then and we said we had done nothing wrong and both the

:06:30.:06:33.

Labour Party and the police in Scotland indicated there had been no

:06:34.:06:39.

wrongdoing. The report itself says you were trying to thwart the

:06:40.:06:44.

investigation. First you tried to fix the selection of a candidate to

:06:45.:06:48.

get your woman in and then you thwarted the investigation into the

:06:49.:06:54.

dirty deeds. The reality is the Labour Party report was deeply

:06:55.:06:59.

flawed. The Labour Party then instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to

:07:00.:07:05.

do an in-depth investigation and during that investigation they got

:07:06.:07:09.

to the bottom of what had happened and they decided there was no

:07:10.:07:14.

wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I was so confident we had done

:07:15.:07:20.

nothing, I called for an independent enquiry. They were forced to

:07:21.:07:24.

conclude there was no wrongdoing because the people who originally

:07:25.:07:27.

complained changed their evidence and we now know they did so because

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Unite union officials helped them to rewrite their retraction and Stevie

:07:33.:07:39.

Deans approved it. That is not true. We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into

:07:40.:07:45.

the public arena and what is that all about? Who is leaking this? They

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showed the Unite union was rewriting the retractions. This interview

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would go a lot better if you are allowed me to finish the question

:08:00.:08:04.

that you asked. These e-mails were put into the public arena by the PR

:08:05.:08:12.

company from INEOS. Why are they doing this? The truth of the matter

:08:13.:08:17.

is that all of the investigations that took place demonstrate there

:08:18.:08:21.

was nothing to answer. This idea that the Unite union has rewritten

:08:22.:08:26.

and the evidence from the families has been withdrawn, the families are

:08:27.:08:32.

a part of Stevie deems' family. They clarified the position. Do you deny

:08:33.:08:40.

that union officials were involved in the retractions? I deny it

:08:41.:08:47.

completely. This is important. Independent solicitors to witness

:08:48.:08:50.

statements from the family and they are the ones that were influencing

:08:51.:08:58.

the Labour Party with the position is clarified and there is no case to

:08:59.:09:04.

answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw their retractions? It is his family.

:09:05.:09:14.

So you do not deny it? It is his family. This is an ordinary, decent

:09:15.:09:18.

family who were faced with the full weight of the pleas, a forensic

:09:19.:09:24.

solicitor. Of course they spoke to Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a

:09:25.:09:31.

cesspit. Does it not need an independent investigation? This is a

:09:32.:09:37.

trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all the

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demands. The media, the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, the Conservative

:09:43.:09:48.

mouthpiece, they are laying tracks for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband

:09:49.:09:56.

should not fall into them. Since when did it become part of an

:09:57.:10:00.

industrial dispute to send mobs to the home of company families. This

:10:01.:10:09.

is a legitimate form of protest and it is a silent protest. We believe

:10:10.:10:16.

if faceless directors are making decisions that cripple communities,

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they cannot expect to simply drift back to their own leafy suburbia and

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not be countable. This is silent protest. It is lawful. It may be

:10:29.:10:35.

silent in Grangemouth, but it was not silent elsewhere. You went with

:10:36.:10:40.

a giant rat, loud-hailers telling everybody the neighbour was evil.

:10:41.:10:47.

No, we did not. You had loud-hailers, you even encouraged

:10:48.:10:53.

passing children in Grangemouth to join in. That is nonsense. Look at

:10:54.:11:05.

the rat. The reality is the Grangemouth community was going to

:11:06.:11:08.

be decimated, Grangemouth was going to become a ghost town. I reject

:11:09.:11:15.

totally this idea there were loud-hailers and children involved.

:11:16.:11:19.

That is a lie perpetrated by the Daily Mail. But you have used these

:11:20.:11:26.

tactics in other disputes. We have used the tactics in other disputes,

:11:27.:11:33.

but we have not used loud-hailers at people's homes. Because the labour

:11:34.:11:38.

laws are so restrictive we have to look at every available means that

:11:39.:11:44.

we can protest. It is an outrage, an absolute outrage, that this is

:11:45.:11:49.

happening to British workers in the 21st-century. It could not happen

:11:50.:11:56.

elsewhere. Is not intimidation the wider hallmark of your union? You

:11:57.:12:01.

were quoted as saying to do whatever it takes during your attempts to

:12:02.:12:06.

take over the Labour Falkirk constituency. You were instructing

:12:07.:12:14.

to dig out the nasty stuff on your opponents. That is not true. Let's

:12:15.:12:24.

see these e-mails? This is a con trick. Nobody is looking to dig

:12:25.:12:30.

out... This is the words of your legal services advisor. Unite has

:12:31.:12:36.

tried to instigate a revival of trade union values within the Labour

:12:37.:12:41.

Party. That is what Ed Miliband wanted us to do. As soon as we

:12:42.:12:46.

started to be in any way ineffective, there were screams and

:12:47.:12:52.

howls of derision. When the company started to investigate Stevie Deans,

:12:53.:12:57.

your friend, your campaign manager, that he was using company time to

:12:58.:13:02.

moonlight on the job, you called INEOS and said unless you stop the

:13:03.:13:06.

investigation we will bring Grangemouth to a standstill. I never

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said that at all. You brought it to a standstill. We never brought it to

:13:14.:13:22.

a standstill, the company did. Who says that I said that we would bring

:13:23.:13:27.

it to a standstill? You have read it in the newspapers. You should not

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believe everything. I did not make that threat to the management. You

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carried the threat out. You instigated an overtime ban and a

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work to rule. And that is what Grangemouth to a standstill because

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the company decided to close the petrochemical site down. Because

:13:49.:13:54.

Stevie Deans was suspended due introduced industrial action? Our

:13:55.:14:00.

members in Grangemouth felt he was being unfairly treated. In the end

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you're grandstanding almost cost Scotland is most important

:14:08.:14:11.

industrial facility. The day was saved by your total capitulation.

:14:12.:14:17.

Grandstanding, capitulation and humiliation are grand phrases. There

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is nothing about capitulation. Len McCluskey did not wake up one day

:14:26.:14:29.

and decide to have a dispute with INEOS. The workers in that factory

:14:30.:14:35.

democratically elect their shop stewards to represent them and to

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express to management their concerns and their views. That is what

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happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has condemned your union's handling of

:14:48.:14:51.

Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have you considered your position? Jack

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Straw and others in the Labour Party, you have to ask them what

:14:58.:15:01.

their agenda is. I am not interested in what he says. The truth of the

:15:02.:15:07.

matter is we responded to the requirements and needs of our

:15:08.:15:14.

members. At a mass meeting last Monday 100% supported their shop

:15:15.:15:19.

stewards and their union. We will continue to stand shoulder to

:15:20.:15:23.

shoulder with our members when they are faced with difficult situations.

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You have lost all the union rights. You have had to agree to a no strike

:15:29.:15:35.

rule, you have lost pension rights. We have not lost rights at all, we

:15:36.:15:41.

are still working with the company to implement its survival plan. The

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Prime Minister is always attacking unions and just lately he has taken

:15:47.:15:50.

to praising the automotive industry. Jaguar Land Rover,

:15:51.:15:57.

Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all Unite union members were the shop

:15:58.:16:02.

stewards are engaged positively to implement survival plans and to make

:16:03.:16:07.

a success for the company. That is what we do, but by the same token we

:16:08.:16:12.

stand shoulder to shoulder with our members who are in struggle and we

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will always do that and we will not be cowed by media attacks on us Is

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your leadership not proving to be as disastrous for the members as Arthur

:16:24.:16:36.

Scargill was for the NUM? My membership is growing. I am

:16:37.:16:41.

accountable to my members, two are executive, and the one thing they

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will know is that when they want me standing shoulder to shoulder with

:16:46.:16:49.

them when they have a problem, I will be there, despite the

:16:50.:16:52.

disgraceful attacks launched on us by the media.

:16:53.:17:07.

"A country ready to welcome your investment which values your

:17:08.:17:09.

friendship and will never exclude anyone because of their race,

:17:10.:17:11.

religion, colour or creed." The words of the Prime minister at the

:17:12.:17:15.

World Islamic Economic Forum which was hosted for the first time in

:17:16.:17:18.

London this week. The PM's warm words are sure to be welcomed by

:17:19.:17:21.

British Muslims who have endured a spate of negative headlines. There's

:17:22.:17:23.

been the controversy over the wearing of the veil, attitudes to

:17:24.:17:26.

women, and the radicalisation of some young British Muslims. In a

:17:27.:17:29.

moment I'll be talking to the Secretary General of the Muslim

:17:30.:17:32.

Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. First - here's Giles Dilnot. The

:17:33.:17:43.

call to Friday prayers at the east London Mosque which has strong links

:17:44.:17:47.

with the Muslim Council of Britain, one of the more vocal groups amongst

:17:48.:17:52.

British Muslims. Despite the fact it frequently happens, it is neither

:17:53.:17:57.

helpful nor accurate to describe the British Muslim community. There are

:17:58.:18:01.

so many different sects, traditions, cultures and

:18:02.:18:05.

nationalities, it is more accurate to describe the British Muslim

:18:06.:18:09.

communities, but there is one question being put to them - are

:18:10.:18:13.

they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues Are

:18:14.:18:23.

they willing to confront radicalisation, attitudes to

:18:24.:18:27.

non-muslins, two women, and cases of sexual exploitation in a meaningful

:18:28.:18:32.

way? A number of them say no, not nearly enough. This former jihad de

:18:33.:18:41.

has spent ten years telling young Muslim teenagers how they can reject

:18:42.:18:46.

extremist radicalisation, using Outward Bound courses and community

:18:47.:18:50.

work, but he and others doing this work thing -- think some elders are

:18:51.:19:02.

failing the youngsters. This has been going on for decades, one

:19:03.:19:11.

figures -- thing is said in public to please people but in private

:19:12.:19:15.

something very different is being said and the messages are being

:19:16.:19:21.

confused. Some of the young people, it pushes them further into a space

:19:22.:19:27.

where they are vulnerable for radical recruiters. For many Muslim

:19:28.:19:34.

youngsters, life is about living 1's faith within an increasingly secular

:19:35.:19:39.

society, a struggle not helped if rigid interpretations of the Koran

:19:40.:19:42.

are being preached, say some sectors. Some practices often don't

:19:43.:19:54.

make sense in 21st-century Britain, and you are perhaps creating

:19:55.:19:57.

obstacles if you stick to those and it is perhaps better to let go of

:19:58.:20:01.

those cultural problems, especially when they need to clear injustices

:20:02.:20:08.

like forced marriage, reticence to talk about grooming for example or

:20:09.:20:12.

discrimination against women. There is a long list but I am very clear

:20:13.:20:17.

that in fact the bad Muslim is the one who sticks to unflinching,

:20:18.:20:25.

narrow dogmatic fundamentalist perception of religion. One issue

:20:26.:20:31.

often focused on is the wearing of minicab. Polling suggests 80% of

:20:32.:20:40.

Britons would favour a ban in public places. -- the niqab. Many people

:20:41.:20:55.

don't seem to recognise the legacy of the niqab. Many people preach

:20:56.:21:06.

that women should be sidelined and that they are sexual objects that

:21:07.:21:10.

should be covered up and the preservation of morality falls on

:21:11.:21:15.

their shoulders. The Muslim Council of Britain recently got praise for

:21:16.:21:19.

holding a conference on combating sexual exploitation. In the wake of

:21:20.:21:25.

abuse cases that had involved predominantly Pakistani men. For one

:21:26.:21:29.

man who has followed the story for some years, the Muslim Council of

:21:30.:21:36.

Britain needs to do much more. We need to get along together and if

:21:37.:21:42.

things like attitudes towards the normal slim girl in stark contrast

:21:43.:21:50.

to the expression of honour and chastity of the Muslim girl, your

:21:51.:21:53.

sister or daughter, are such that actions that would be an fought off

:21:54.:22:00.

with a slim girl becomes permissible with a white girl, then we are all

:22:01.:22:07.

in trouble. To some, attitudes to women are not limited to sexual

:22:08.:22:12.

interactions at the very structures of life in Muslim communities and

:22:13.:22:17.

indeed the Muslim Council of Britain itself. I would like to ask the

:22:18.:22:20.

Muslim Council of Britain what they are doing about the fact that very

:22:21.:22:28.

few mosques give voices to are doing about the fact that very

:22:29.:22:36.

the fact that someone women are experiencing female genital

:22:37.:22:37.

mutilation and forced marriages what about the women who are getting

:22:38.:22:42.

married and their marriages are not being registered and they are being

:22:43.:22:46.

left homeless and denied maintenance rights, what about the fact there

:22:47.:22:51.

are sharia rights that have been found to be discriminating against

:22:52.:22:54.

women, and the fact there are men in this country who continue to hold

:22:55.:22:59.

misogynistic views about women, what are you doing? The occasional press

:23:00.:23:06.

release will not solve this problem of a deeply patriarchal community.

:23:07.:23:11.

That all of these issues can be exploited to the point of Islam

:23:12.:23:15.

phobia is not doubted, but many Muslims feel that unless the

:23:16.:23:21.

communities do tackle this openly, a big cultural gap will exist between

:23:22.:23:28.

the two. And the Secretary General of the

:23:29.:23:31.

Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, joins me now. One visible

:23:32.:23:36.

sign that sets muslins aside is the veils that cover women's faces. Do

:23:37.:23:45.

you think it makes them impossible to be part of mainstream society?

:23:46.:23:54.

The niqab is not an obligatory requirement. But do you accept that

:23:55.:23:58.

those who wear it are cutting themselves off from mainstream

:23:59.:24:04.

society? Some people do, and whilst wearing niqab, some of them are

:24:05.:24:15.

working in various walks of life successfully and it is seen as a

:24:16.:24:18.

faith requirement, but it is a red herring in the sense that it applies

:24:19.:24:23.

to such a small number of Muslim girls. For many Muslim preachers,

:24:24.:24:28.

isn't separation precisely the point of the niqab? Certainly not, if you

:24:29.:24:38.

look at the Muslim women in the public sphere, we have many very

:24:39.:24:44.

successful women. But not the ones who are veiled. Not in the public

:24:45.:24:54.

arena as such, but the veil is a practice which is practised by a

:24:55.:25:00.

very small number. Do you favour it? I personally think it is not a

:25:01.:25:07.

requirement. But do you think women should wear the veil? I think it is

:25:08.:25:11.

wrong to force women to wear the veil. I asked if in your opinion

:25:12.:25:17.

women should wear the veil? It is important not to force women to wear

:25:18.:25:24.

the veil. Should they of their free choice where the veil? A lot of

:25:25.:25:28.

individuals do things out of their free choice which I do not approve

:25:29.:25:33.

of, I don't think it is conducive it helps their cause, but I do not have

:25:34.:25:38.

the right to take their choice away from them. I am still unsure if you

:25:39.:25:43.

think it is a good thing or a bad thing. Are not many Muslim women in

:25:44.:25:49.

this country being forced by Muslim preachers and often their male

:25:50.:25:52.

relations who want to keep Muslim women their place? As I said, it is

:25:53.:25:57.

wrong for anyone to force Muslim women. But how would we ever know in

:25:58.:26:06.

a family if a woman was being forced? Exactly, we don't know what

:26:07.:26:12.

is going on in people 's homes and what pressure is being applied. I

:26:13.:26:18.

want you to look at this picture, very popular on Islamic websites,

:26:19.:26:21.

and it shows the women who is wearing the niqab having a straight

:26:22.:26:28.

route to heaven, and the other Muslim woman dressed in western gear

:26:29.:26:33.

condemned to hell. Do you consider that a proper message for Muslim

:26:34.:26:41.

women? Not at all, I don't. So any Islamic websites in Britain... The

:26:42.:26:47.

Muslim Council of Britain is an organisation of five affiliates from

:26:48.:26:50.

across the country and this is not coming from any of them. As I said,

:26:51.:26:56.

those minority views propagated by individuals should not be used to

:26:57.:27:02.

represent Muslim community. So that would not have the support of the

:27:03.:27:08.

Muslim Council of Britain? It would not have the support. What about the

:27:09.:27:12.

Muslim free school that requires children as young as 11 to wear a

:27:13.:27:25.

black veil outside of school? Do you agree with that? I am not sure

:27:26.:27:35.

exactly what the policy is... I have just told you, do you agree that

:27:36.:27:44.

girls as young as 11 should wear a black burka outside of school? I

:27:45.:27:49.

don't think it should be imposed on anybody. But this is the desired

:27:50.:28:02.

dress School of the Muslim females. I am asking for your view. I said it

:28:03.:28:06.

at the beginning that I do not think it should be imposed. Would you send

:28:07.:28:13.

your daughter to a school that would wear a black burka at the age of 11?

:28:14.:28:27.

Would you? No. It seems that some muslins are determined to segregate

:28:28.:28:30.

young Muslim girls right from the start to very early from society. It

:28:31.:28:37.

is not their segregation as such, I would say that there are faith

:28:38.:28:46.

schools, if you look at an Islamic girls school in Blackburn in a

:28:47.:28:49.

traditional setting, it has come the top of the league table this year in

:28:50.:28:57.

the secondary school league tables. But it doesn't make 11-year-olds

:28:58.:29:03.

wear black burkas. Many of those girls go on to have a successful

:29:04.:29:10.

career. Not wearing black burkas. I am sure there are examples of women

:29:11.:29:18.

who do have successful careers. There is a very conservative

:29:19.:29:21.

movement from the continent on Islam, and the issue supposedly

:29:22.:29:33.

based on Islamic law on their website. Here is one of their recent

:29:34.:29:41.

judgements. The female is encouraged to remain within the confines of her

:29:42.:29:45.

home as much as possible, she should not come out of the home without

:29:46.:29:49.

need and necessity. What do you think of that? We need to say the

:29:50.:29:55.

whole context of that quote. They are saying they should stay at home

:29:56.:29:59.

as much as possible, do you agree with that? I see many Muslim women

:30:00.:30:12.

who are walking about... But this is what the mosque is recommending

:30:13.:30:17.

women should do. The practice is quite the contrary. Let me show you

:30:18.:30:38.

another one. Another Fatwa. Do you agree with that? These have been

:30:39.:30:43.

picked out from material dating back to different cultural settings and

:30:44.:30:50.

in practice they are not applied. This is advice being given as we

:30:51.:30:57.

speak. This is not being practised. Do you agree with it? No, not at

:30:58.:31:03.

all. These are from the DL Monday mosques, how come 72 of these

:31:04.:31:07.

mosques are affiliated to your counsel? There may be publications

:31:08.:31:25.

from one of their scholars, but they have been written in countries

:31:26.:31:31.

abroad and translated. This is advice being given to young women

:31:32.:31:36.

now. They are affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain. Do you

:31:37.:31:43.

ever speak to them about that? The Muslim Council is a very broad

:31:44.:31:47.

organisation. We are working on lots of common issues to create a

:31:48.:31:53.

community which positively integrates. Did you ever speak to

:31:54.:32:01.

them to say this is not appropriate for British Muslims? There may be

:32:02.:32:08.

certain ad buys and publications available, but people make their

:32:09.:32:16.

choices. So it is OK for your organisation to issue things like

:32:17.:32:26.

that? Many of these things will fall under scrutiny and we need to create

:32:27.:32:34.

that. Why do only 26% of British mosques have facilities for women?

:32:35.:32:40.

If you go back to the requirement of prayer, it was not obligatory for

:32:41.:32:46.

women to come to the masks to prayer. When a poorer community

:32:47.:32:51.

began putting up mosques at the very beginning in terraced houses... Did

:32:52.:32:59.

you have a policy to encourage them? Is it on your website? It is in our

:33:00.:33:08.

practices that 20% of the council have to be female. Coming out of

:33:09.:33:16.

this movement there is a conscious stream of superiority between

:33:17.:33:22.

Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at this quote. He is a well-known

:33:23.:33:26.

picture in this country. That is what he wants to stop. I

:33:27.:33:50.

disagree with that. We believe we live in this society and Muslims in

:33:51.:33:58.

any society of the world, and they have historically lived as

:33:59.:34:04.

minorities in many countries... You would this associate yourself from

:34:05.:34:10.

that? Why do you allow people like that to be affiliated to you? The

:34:11.:34:17.

requirement is for any organisation to be affiliated is that they are

:34:18.:34:21.

bound by the Charity commission s rules and regulations. We only

:34:22.:34:27.

accept those who are under the law of this country. This is a matter of

:34:28.:34:35.

taste. Let me move on to a bigger issue. In 2009 you signed the

:34:36.:34:44.

Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul declaration was signed. Do you still

:34:45.:34:50.

support it? No, we never signed it or supported it. One of your leading

:34:51.:35:02.

lights signed it. In the media mainstream he defended his position.

:35:03.:35:08.

You have this associated yourself from it? What is wrong with that? I

:35:09.:35:16.

am not sure about the declaration because we disassociated ourselves.

:35:17.:35:22.

Before reading it? We did not sign it. You have not read it? I do not

:35:23.:35:31.

know all the aspects of the declaration, but at the time in the

:35:32.:35:37.

national newspapers and media there was a discussion and a debate and it

:35:38.:35:47.

was highlighted that that was not what was meant by the declaration.

:35:48.:35:54.

When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From

:35:55.:36:02.

day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are

:36:03.:36:08.

personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of

:36:09.:36:14.

extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the

:36:15.:36:25.

mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described

:36:26.:36:29.

by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another

:36:30.:36:32.

speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad

:36:33.:36:38.

is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop

:36:39.:36:43.

extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?

:36:44.:36:51.

We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or

:36:52.:36:57.

supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is

:36:58.:37:01.

a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is

:37:02.:37:07.

a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told

:37:08.:37:13.

their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to

:37:14.:37:18.

speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a

:37:19.:37:28.

Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did

:37:29.:37:35.

not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and

:37:36.:37:41.

have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I

:37:42.:37:50.

completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,

:37:51.:37:56.

the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the

:37:57.:38:01.

toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

:38:02.:38:07.

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

:38:08.:38:12.

non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which

:38:13.:38:20.

embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim

:38:21.:38:27.

community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which

:38:28.:38:33.

are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our

:38:34.:38:37.

view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The

:38:38.:38:44.

work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all

:38:45.:38:49.

associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are

:38:50.:38:54.

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke

:38:55.:39:06.

Thank you, Andrew, and welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West

:39:07.:39:11.

Coming up this week: Forget fruit machines or placing a bet on the

:39:12.:39:14.

horses. You can pump ?100 every 20 seconds

:39:15.:39:20.

into one of these. So is it time for politicians to get tough with

:39:21.:39:23.

bookies making a fast buck from gamblers?

:39:24.:39:27.

We won't be taking bets on who will win the political debate here on the

:39:28.:39:31.

programme today. Joining us is the Pensions Minister Steve Webb and a

:39:32.:39:34.

Labour candidate in Northeast Somerset, Todd Foreman. Let's talk

:39:35.:39:44.

about pensions. Say you have someone paying ?100 a month into their

:39:45.:39:49.

pension, a modest amount. Over the lifetime of that policy, how much is

:39:50.:39:55.

going on charges? If you are paying 1%, which sounds innocuous, although

:39:56.:40:01.

your tire `` over your entire life, you could find ?100,000 in charges.

:40:02.:40:06.

We said we cannot allow that to happen and we will look at how we

:40:07.:40:10.

can cap charges so that even more of people's money is going into

:40:11.:40:14.

pensions and not costs. You're capping it at 0.5%. A lot of charges

:40:15.:40:19.

are below that, so pension companies will think, we can get away with it.

:40:20.:40:26.

The big firms, supermarkets and banks have chosen pension schemes

:40:27.:40:30.

for employees. They have buying power and can get a low costs. We're

:40:31.:40:34.

going to go through every employer in the land to make sure that

:40:35.:40:39.

everybody can have access to reasonable pension. Why should

:40:40.:40:44.

anyone even bother with a pension when it is going to be frittered

:40:45.:40:47.

away on charges? You might as well wait and let the state take care of

:40:48.:40:53.

you. The big difference is the fun puts money in, the Government puts

:40:54.:40:59.

money in and you put money in. In a sense, your ?1 becomes ?2 overnight.

:41:00.:41:03.

If you want more than the basic state pension, which will be about

:41:04.:41:08.

?7,000 a year, if you want more than that, to have to do something about

:41:09.:41:13.

it. People are fed up with big companies creaming off profits from

:41:14.:41:19.

people. Is there an opportunity from Labour here? I think there is a huge

:41:20.:41:26.

opportunity here. As with energy companies, this is a market that

:41:27.:41:30.

really isn't working. Part of that is because there isn't enough

:41:31.:41:34.

transparency. I would applaud some steps that the Government have taken

:41:35.:41:36.

in terms of transparency of pensions. That is what Labour and Ed

:41:37.:41:42.

Miliband have been calling for for a long time. The first question you

:41:43.:41:46.

had for Steve was, how much are people paying in terms of charges

:41:47.:41:50.

for pensions? It is important people know that, because whilst these

:41:51.:41:54.

regulations will bring in transparency on annual fees, Labour

:41:55.:41:59.

puts down a `` puts down an amendment that will require

:42:00.:42:05.

transparency for all fees. We would take it that stepfather to have even

:42:06.:42:08.

more transparency about the fees people pay. `` we would stick it

:42:09.:42:16.

that step further. Forget that machines are having a flutter on the

:42:17.:42:20.

horses, today, except to the betting shop can have much higher stakes. A

:42:21.:42:23.

new type of betting machine has proved a bonanza for bookies. It is

:42:24.:42:26.

growing political pressure for change.

:42:27.:42:31.

Every walk down the high street and the watch a town where he lives is

:42:32.:42:34.

difficult for James Petherick. He has lost a fortune in his

:42:35.:42:40.

bookmakers. He has been a problem gambler for 20 years. I have been

:42:41.:42:46.

homeless, slept in my car, lost jobs through my gambling. I'm trying to

:42:47.:42:53.

give up. But for some reason, the addiction takes hold and you're

:42:54.:42:57.

straight back in the doing it again. With these terminals, I was doing it

:42:58.:43:02.

twice as much, twice as fast. These are the machines he has comfortable.

:43:03.:43:06.

The cold fixed odds betting terminals. They look like other slot

:43:07.:43:11.

machines but the stakes can be huge. You can plan them ?100 every 20

:43:12.:43:19.

seconds. `` you can put in. Because of the speed of play, you do not get

:43:20.:43:24.

time to think. When you go to a casino, you have one minute and a

:43:25.:43:27.

half. On these machines, it is so quick. It is almost as fast as

:43:28.:43:33.

playing a fruit machine. It is 0p ago. These will machines are ?1 0 a

:43:34.:43:42.

spin. Shop can have up to four machines. These betting terminals

:43:43.:43:48.

have proved a big moneyspinner for bookmakers. New shops have opened

:43:49.:43:51.

up, especially in less well`off areas. Here in South Bristol, there

:43:52.:43:57.

are no less than 19 bookies. Customers using the machines last

:43:58.:44:00.

year blew three and a half million pounds. The Bath MP Don Foster rated

:44:01.:44:11.

at his party conference. If you look at the figures, the vast majority of

:44:12.:44:15.

profits, something like 70%, are coming from these fixed odds betting

:44:16.:44:20.

terminals. When you have clusters of these shops, you almost have a high

:44:21.:44:24.

street casino with more high`powered machines than you actually find in a

:44:25.:44:30.

properly regulated, better supervised casino. He would like the

:44:31.:44:34.

stakes slashed. Others want to go further. Will the Prime Minister

:44:35.:44:41.

consider banning these addictive machines, as has recently happened

:44:42.:44:45.

in Ireland? He got a hint that there could be change. It is worth having

:44:46.:44:50.

a proper look at this issue to see what we can do to make sure that,

:44:51.:44:55.

yes, we want a bookmakers that are not overregulated, but any other

:44:56.:45:02.

hand, a fair approach and a decent approach to prevent problem

:45:03.:45:07.

gambling. This is the first of my video diaries regarding my gambling

:45:08.:45:12.

addiction. James Petherick resorted to baring his soul online with the

:45:13.:45:17.

diary of a compulsive gambler. There is no point to my life, no point to

:45:18.:45:22.

anything. I gambled for most of my life, for 30 years. It is only now

:45:23.:45:29.

that I have opened onto friends family. And the rest of the world as

:45:30.:45:36.

well in my future blog. That is how I managed to give up. He's just

:45:37.:45:41.

about coping. Thousands of others aren't.

:45:42.:45:48.

Joining us is James Barrow from the Association of British Bookmakers.

:45:49.:45:52.

Well, long. These machines are totally responsible, aren't they?

:45:53.:45:58.

They are not. There is no evidence to suggest they are any different to

:45:59.:46:01.

other gambling products. Research has shown problem gamblers

:46:02.:46:05.

participate in a variety of different forms of gambling. We have

:46:06.:46:10.

to put this in perspective. We have 10 million customers who enjoy the

:46:11.:46:13.

entertainment we have in our shops, and the overwhelming majority gamble

:46:14.:46:17.

responsibly. However, we ask responsible businesses to help with

:46:18.:46:25.

those who have problems. You can put ?100 into one of these machines in

:46:26.:46:31.

20 seconds. The average bet is about ?10. To try and do more recently, we

:46:32.:46:37.

have launched a court to protect players. It is world`leading and

:46:38.:46:40.

involves better training for shop staff, so they can identify problem

:46:41.:46:45.

gamblers, better leaflets in the shops, and allows players on the

:46:46.:46:49.

gaming machines to set limits on how much they spend and how much they

:46:50.:46:53.

stay on the machine. How much profit do these machines make in a week?

:46:54.:46:58.

The average would`be 600 or ?70 a week. Do they ever lose? In the long

:46:59.:47:08.

run, the bookmakers will win. But the machines are always programmes

:47:09.:47:12.

to make a profit? The reason it is high`stakes, is because of a high

:47:13.:47:20.

return to players. I have done a bit of research before I came on here.

:47:21.:47:24.

In this posh area where we're sitting now, I cannot find any

:47:25.:47:28.

bookies. And on the working there are six. `` in and working`class

:47:29.:47:37.

area. The number of bookmakers in any location correlates to the

:47:38.:47:42.

population of that area. For example, in London, Westminster has

:47:43.:47:46.

the greatest number of betting shops. You have to remember that the

:47:47.:47:51.

number of betting shops is 8500 down from 16,000 in the 1960s. We

:47:52.:47:57.

employ 3000 people in the South West, we pay taxes, and at a time

:47:58.:48:01.

when it is needed, we generate footfall in the high street. So it

:48:02.:48:06.

is a coincidence that in some of the poor areas, there is nothing but

:48:07.:48:11.

bookies in the high street? That is not the case. We target commercial

:48:12.:48:15.

centres. If you look at the graph, it correlates the number of people

:48:16.:48:18.

in the area. It is well that is demand for our products. Let's bring

:48:19.:48:26.

in the politicians. Congratulations, gambling is one industry which must

:48:27.:48:30.

be booming under the Coalition. What we have just held as incredibly

:48:31.:48:35.

complacent. Don Foster is absolutely right. Manage gambling and a number

:48:36.:48:46.

of book will `` bookmakers. In the past, councils have not been able to

:48:47.:48:48.

say we do not want too many bookies on the high street. These machines

:48:49.:48:52.

must be controlled. James said in his film, I do not have time to

:48:53.:48:57.

think. I just want to get on with it. People out of control and need

:48:58.:49:00.

support and help, not just be told to read as leaflet. It is like

:49:01.:49:09.

Vegas, isn't it? I agree this is an issue in terms of hearing about

:49:10.:49:11.

these lower income areas having more of these shops. It seems they also

:49:12.:49:15.

have this evil twin in the high street also coming in. I would like

:49:16.:49:21.

to see more powerful local councils to stop these and for more local

:49:22.:49:25.

people to shape the kind of high street they want. We have worked

:49:26.:49:32.

very hard with our new codes to make sure people do not get into trouble.

:49:33.:49:36.

As James said in his clip, we don't want problem gamblers at all. Val

:49:37.:49:39.

d'Or is always open and B are willing to proactively engage with

:49:40.:49:45.

local councils. `` our door is always open. If you're only taking

:49:46.:49:51.

2% and taking hundreds of pounds, there must be a phenomenal amount of

:49:52.:49:57.

money going through these machines. That is not the case at all. The

:49:58.:50:02.

average stake is ?10. It is as a sports bets. You think people on

:50:03.:50:07.

benefits should be allowed to gamble? I do not want to tell people

:50:08.:50:15.

how to spend the money. People on benefits have to spend most of what

:50:16.:50:18.

they have an essential. But you have to protect people against, as the

:50:19.:50:23.

man said in the film, when you have lost control, a problem gamblers not

:50:24.:50:29.

making a measure of choice. It is an addiction. You cannot expose people

:50:30.:50:33.

to these things. Why is David Cameron reluctant to bring in

:50:34.:50:38.

tougher rules? I'm not sure he is. In Government, we are wary of

:50:39.:50:42.

overregulating in general. He said he would have a serious look at it.

:50:43.:50:47.

You are planning more shops, is that right? No, it is not. Shop numbers

:50:48.:50:56.

are down in the last ten years. We hope to protect people. Problem

:50:57.:51:00.

gamblers in this country are less than 1% and they want to do just

:51:01.:51:09.

that for the. `` ridges that father. Independent councillors in Froome in

:51:10.:51:11.

Somerset tried to wrestle local services away from politicians in

:51:12.:51:17.

the county and district councils. But will they be able to run things

:51:18.:51:25.

better and more cheaply? Historic Frome. Famous for

:51:26.:51:29.

clothmaking, its hoard of Roman coins, and a certain racing driver.

:51:30.:51:32.

These streets haven't seen riots since the 1700s, but now some say a

:51:33.:51:35.

political revolution's underway It started with this lot.

:51:36.:51:44.

Independent candidates sang their way to success in the town council

:51:45.:51:50.

election two years ago. Since then they've bumped up the precept, and

:51:51.:51:53.

taken on services from the county and district councils. This is

:51:54.:52:01.

Palmer Street ` Frome Town Council's planning to resurface it with

:52:02.:52:04.

cobbles ` normally the domain of the County Council. They're also taking

:52:05.:52:10.

on the showfield from the District Council, and want control of the

:52:11.:52:15.

town's main car park too. This week, the town council rounded up the

:52:16.:52:18.

three tiers of local Government for a meeting they called One Frome

:52:19.:52:28.

Working together. It is not about sovereignty or will not ship, it is

:52:29.:52:30.

about trying to deal with the people we serve. I find tonight has not let

:52:31.:52:40.

me up in terms of where we're going. There is something we need to do.

:52:41.:52:44.

The average person on the street will not understand why the councils

:52:45.:52:52.

cannot work together in a way that is productive. It wasn't plain

:52:53.:52:55.

sailing, but not much that's happened in Frome recently has been.

:52:56.:52:58.

If you talk to the woman on the street and said to her, do you know

:52:59.:53:04.

that we do not talk together? They would say, that is not the way I

:53:05.:53:10.

want my democracy to work. We should be talking rationally about where

:53:11.:53:12.

cuts might, and what the impact might be on the town. Mel Usher s no

:53:13.:53:17.

stranger to politics ` he was chief executive of one of the biggest

:53:18.:53:20.

district councils in the country ` but now says he sees the value of

:53:21.:53:26.

smaller scale Government. Towns like this should begin to take the local

:53:27.:53:29.

decision`making and perhaps decide their own destiny in the future If

:53:30.:53:33.

we do not, I do not know who will do that. I would find it helpful if we

:53:34.:53:38.

had a more clear direction. But not everyone's sure about the town

:53:39.:53:43.

council's rise to power. If the town council takes on more services, the

:53:44.:53:48.

council to will not go down because it is really cut. What you have then

:53:49.:53:54.

is a situation of double taxation. What I am into is looking at who is

:53:55.:53:57.

the best person to run the service, who can do it for real value for

:53:58.:54:00.

money for the public, and who can do it best. The rise of the independent

:54:01.:54:05.

politician has rattled traditional party members. The number of

:54:06.:54:11.

initiatives and projects underway at a cost. That cost is significant

:54:12.:54:20.

spending, bordering, borrowing and a pretty high precept. I think it is

:54:21.:54:33.

important to the from precept feels that services are delivered in an

:54:34.:54:35.

effective way and provide good value. Whether it's welcomed by all

:54:36.:54:40.

parties, Frome certainly seems to be having a political renaissance. This

:54:41.:54:46.

park will soon be in the hands of the town council, showing that in

:54:47.:54:49.

this part of Somerset, localism rules the roost.

:54:50.:54:51.

Joining us is Nick White who's the former Mayor of Frome and an

:54:52.:54:59.

independent councillor. What is all this wanting more powers all the

:55:00.:55:03.

time? You're not getting too big for you Brits, are you? `` for you

:55:04.:55:11.

Brits, are you? I do not think we are. When we came to power, we felt

:55:12.:55:15.

things could be run better in Froome than had been in the past. The town

:55:16.:55:21.

council had got caught up in party politics and we didn't think that

:55:22.:55:24.

was relevant in running a town council. Since we have gained

:55:25.:55:27.

control of the council, we came up with a number of initiatives we

:55:28.:55:30.

think will improve and enhance the town. The trouble is, we keep

:55:31.:55:34.

running up against District Council and county councilss in being able

:55:35.:55:38.

to take over some of those services and provisions. The item it might be

:55:39.:55:43.

you are parochial and cannot see the larger picture. `` the adamant might

:55:44.:55:52.

be. I think... It is a difficult question. We have to go back,

:55:53.:56:01.

actually, you have flummoxed me Is it reasonable that you do not see

:56:02.:56:04.

the problems and districts as a whole because you're so worried

:56:05.:56:09.

about Frome? It is the biggest town within Mendip District Council.

:56:10.:56:14.

There has always been a tendency in Frome that we do not get value for

:56:15.:56:19.

money from Mendip. We are the largest contributor but possibly not

:56:20.:56:26.

the biggest benefactor. Let's bring in the politicians once more. Where

:56:27.:56:35.

your counsellor? I was not. Is there a reason why the big parties should

:56:36.:56:40.

be involved in local politics? What is political about climbing the

:56:41.:56:46.

drains and cobbling the street? Any level of Government has politics to

:56:47.:56:49.

it. As a counsellor, I offer myself to the electorate as someone with a

:56:50.:56:55.

programme and I George that is coherent with a manifesto we can

:56:56.:56:58.

stand on. I think that is perfectly reasonable. `` with the programme

:56:59.:57:06.

and manifesto. But there is no politics about putting cobbles on a

:57:07.:57:11.

road, is there? It's a question of resource and how the taxpayer pays

:57:12.:57:19.

for it. It is a public space and a question of resource and how you're

:57:20.:57:23.

going to allocated. We have larger towns which have Lib Dem councils.

:57:24.:57:32.

The smaller ones and independence. You're talking about spending

:57:33.:57:35.

potentially millions of pounds. In Yate, that the Dems are keen on

:57:36.:57:39.

youth services. They created a gift cafe. They delivered. `` a youth

:57:40.:57:47.

cafe. There are differences at a very local level. Do you see

:57:48.:57:56.

yourselves as pioneers in Frome I think we have broken a bit of old or

:57:57.:58:03.

went back to a time when party politics wasn't as influential.

:58:04.:58:09.

Maybe we have rode the boat back of it by getting more involved as

:58:10.:58:14.

independents. People all over the country are watching you to see what

:58:15.:58:16.

is being done. Thank you for coming in and talking about it today. It is

:58:17.:58:22.

time now for a round`up of the week's political stories in 60

:58:23.:58:28.

seconds. Ed Miliband was in town meeting

:58:29.:58:31.

party activists. Many locally admit they have a mountain to climb if

:58:32.:58:37.

they're to win back seats here. We have got a message about how we

:58:38.:58:42.

can freeze energy prices, abolish bedroom tax, strengthen the minimum

:58:43.:58:46.

wage, help with childcare, which is absolutely well the concerns of

:58:47.:58:49.

people across the South West are. The parents of Catherine Wells`Burr,

:58:50.:58:52.

from Somerset ` who was murdered last year ` are backing a new code

:58:53.:58:56.

that will allow bereaved families to read out a personal statement in

:58:57.:59:04.

court themselves. If you like a drop of jam or marmalade on your Sunday

:59:05.:59:06.

morning toast, then listen up Tessa I am concerned this will be the end

:59:07.:59:15.

of the British breakfast as we know it. Tessa Munt says plans to reduce

:59:16.:59:27.

the minimum amount of sugar in jam from 60 to 50% will turn it into

:59:28.:59:30.

brown gloop, whilst the Government claims it will boost exports.

:59:31.:59:34.

I was putting jam on my toast this morning and I stopped when I

:59:35.:59:39.

realised how much sugar was in it. Let's talk about Ed Miliband and his

:59:40.:59:41.

visit to Bristol this week. Is he winning the adamant, do you think,

:59:42.:59:48.

although the cost of living? Labour is winning the adamant. In the last

:59:49.:59:52.

few months, we have seen that Labour is framing the debate. We started

:59:53.:59:56.

talking about energy prices, for example, at conference. Labour said,

:59:57.:00:01.

look, the markets are not working on energy when there are price rises.

:00:02.:00:10.

When prices do not go back down energy companies are keeping the

:00:11.:00:13.

difference for themselves. The market is broken here and people are

:00:14.:00:17.

feeling the pinch. Labour has managed to change the subject and

:00:18.:00:20.

the Coalition seems to be scrambling to catch up. Is he right? I shadowed

:00:21.:00:28.

Ed Miliband when he was the Secretary of State in charge of

:00:29.:00:31.

energy. Funnily enough, if the market is broken, why didn't he fix

:00:32.:00:38.

it? What about these green taxes? They are a small part of the mix.

:00:39.:00:42.

There is a lot we can do it is make sure people are not wasting energy.

:00:43.:00:48.

We are doing a large amount of that but there is more to be done. The

:00:49.:00:51.

idea that energy companies will freeze prices and will not jack them

:00:52.:00:54.

up before and afterwards is not right. If energy companies want to

:00:55.:01:00.

do that before the next election because they fear Labour will win,

:01:01.:01:03.

that will raise questions of competition law. Increasing the

:01:04.:01:13.

prices is a legal? If they do it as a cartel... They could legally do

:01:14.:01:18.

it. But Labour said is they will bring in a freeze in places as a

:01:19.:01:23.

pause. The market is not working here and we need to pause and see

:01:24.:01:28.

how it will work. It could be you will be working with Ed Miliband.

:01:29.:01:32.

You would be quite comfortable with that, wouldn't you? On the left of

:01:33.:01:38.

the Lib Dems. Plan a is to work with Nick, I'm afraid. We worry about

:01:39.:01:43.

that after the election. We shall see. That is we have got

:01:44.:01:47.

time for this week thank you to our guests for joining us. We will be a

:01:48.:01:52.

little later next Sunday because of the Remembrance Sunday service. For

:01:53.:01:57.

now, back to Andrew for the rest of the day's programme. If

:01:58.:01:59.

Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's

:02:00.:02:17.

relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the

:02:18.:02:30.

Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka

:02:31.:02:33.

Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did

:02:34.:02:36.

earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.

:02:37.:02:40.

Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

:02:41.:02:44.

office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the

:02:45.:02:48.

Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative

:02:49.:02:52.

mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he

:02:53.:02:57.

should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey

:02:58.:03:03.

denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial

:03:04.:03:09.

dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side

:03:10.:03:13.

is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send

:03:14.:03:19.

its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened

:03:20.:03:22.

in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families

:03:23.:03:28.

out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset

:03:29.:03:31.

particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of

:03:32.:03:38.

things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own

:03:39.:03:42.

report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -

:03:43.:03:48.

forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was

:03:49.:03:56.

being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the

:03:57.:04:09.

report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is

:04:10.:04:13.

something that the police are looking into so that is not

:04:14.:04:16.

something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We

:04:17.:04:28.

learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained

:04:29.:04:31.

to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour

:04:32.:04:37.

Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party

:04:38.:04:47.

and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are

:04:48.:04:50.

looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like

:04:51.:04:55.

the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil

:04:56.:04:58.

Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed

:04:59.:05:03.

Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not

:05:04.:05:10.

worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?

:05:11.:05:15.

Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we

:05:16.:05:19.

have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many

:05:20.:05:26.

respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further

:05:27.:05:30.

ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship

:05:31.:05:36.

with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of

:05:37.:05:41.

the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to

:05:42.:05:46.

vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but

:05:47.:05:50.

they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and

:05:51.:05:55.

that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do

:05:56.:06:00.

things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour

:06:01.:06:03.

Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in

:06:04.:06:08.

which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us

:06:09.:06:13.

in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3

:06:14.:06:20.

million working people who ensure our public services function. At

:06:21.:06:28.

Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk

:06:29.:06:34.

Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd

:06:35.:06:43.

just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to

:06:44.:06:49.

give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be

:06:50.:06:53.

confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to

:06:54.:06:58.

take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our

:06:59.:07:04.

Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed

:07:05.:07:12.

Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in

:07:13.:07:16.

special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite

:07:17.:07:21.

union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean

:07:22.:07:28.

according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the

:07:29.:07:36.

meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer

:07:37.:07:41.

free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your

:07:42.:07:49.

turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the

:07:50.:07:57.

allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the

:07:58.:08:02.

Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their

:08:03.:08:07.

rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at

:08:08.:08:15.

Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of

:08:16.:08:21.

their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to

:08:22.:08:27.

our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will

:08:28.:08:32.

find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets

:08:33.:08:37.

tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working

:08:38.:08:44.

in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port

:08:45.:08:48.

and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets

:08:49.:08:53.

overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from

:08:54.:08:59.

unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite

:09:00.:09:04.

know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears

:09:05.:09:09.

used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private

:09:10.:09:13.

sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was

:09:14.:09:19.

born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of

:09:20.:09:23.

their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they

:09:24.:09:31.

can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But

:09:32.:09:39.

there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is

:09:40.:09:43.

right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for

:09:44.:09:49.

their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their

:09:50.:09:54.

aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their

:09:55.:09:59.

workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the

:10:00.:10:06.

protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has

:10:07.:10:11.

said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.

:10:12.:10:18.

He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the

:10:19.:10:23.

radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that

:10:24.:10:27.

was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend

:10:28.:10:32.

to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like

:10:33.:10:37.

land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing

:10:38.:10:45.

the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.

:10:46.:10:49.

million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The

:10:50.:10:55.

business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances

:10:56.:11:00.

back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being

:11:01.:11:06.

used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater

:11:07.:11:10.

variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro

:11:11.:11:18.

enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a

:11:19.:11:25.

living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but

:11:26.:11:29.

there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business

:11:30.:11:35.

because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is

:11:36.:11:42.

good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are

:11:43.:11:48.

not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax

:11:49.:11:52.

credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know

:11:53.:12:01.

after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living

:12:02.:12:12.

wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and

:12:13.:12:15.

we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party

:12:16.:12:24.

pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a

:12:25.:12:38.

living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.

:12:39.:12:44.

What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle

:12:45.:12:50.

as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one

:12:51.:12:57.

of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this

:12:58.:13:01.

soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working

:13:02.:13:05.

together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.

:13:06.:13:16.

That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be

:13:17.:13:25.

here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at

:13:26.:13:30.

the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:31.:13:59.

Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.

:14:00.:14:04.

To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.

:14:05.:14:11.

There were the objects that were making the Earth.

:14:12.:14:14.

We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.

:14:15.:14:17.

Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?

:14:18.:14:20.

This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.

:14:21.:14:25.

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