03/11/2013 Sunday Politics West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

should be covered up. In the West, boosting biddies

profits. You can spend up to ?1 0 every 20 seconds in these

authority is investigating -- investing thousands of pounds in a

GPS tracking system to keep tabs on its staff.

With me as always, the best and the brightest political panel, Helen

Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who will be tweeting their

humiliating climb-down is what they got wrong last week in the

programme. If this can happen it to a Cabinet minister, what hope is

there for anyone else? Thus the Home Affairs Select Committee concluded

what many already thought about the treatment of Andrew Mitchell by

three self-styled PC plebs. They met him to clear the air over what did

or did not happen when he was prevented from ramming his bike

through the Downing Street gates. But the officers gave the media and

inaccurate account of that meeting. Two of them are even accused of

misleading the Commons committee. The Independent Police Complaints

Commission will now reopen there enquiry. This is not a story about

Andrew Mitchell, it is about the police. Keith Vaz is often in high

dudgeon and this is the highest dad and I have seen him in for some

time. They could be held for contempt of Parliament and

technically they could be sent to prison. It has blown up into an

enormous story. I do not know what is worse, the police trying to

stitch up a Cabinet member and try to mislead the media or the

incompetence they have done it from day one. That is quite good. I would

sleep more soundly at night if I knew the pleas were good at this. It

is the incompetence that shocks me. And this is just a sideshow. We are

still waiting on the main report as to what exactly happened outside

Downing Street gates. But that not will be good for the police either.

The file has gone from the Metropolitan police to the CPS, so

we are limited about what we can say. This is about the police

Federation. They were set up under statute in 1990 as a deal in which a

police would not go on strike. This is a political campaign to get a

Cabinet minister out and the legacy of this is the police Federation

will have to be reformed. We will keep an eye on it. They were Ed

Miliband's union backers, they swung the Labour leadership for him in

2010. Now the Unite union looks like his biggest headache. The Sunday

Times has seen extracts of the report into the alleged vote rigging

to select a Labour candidate in Falkirk. There was evidence of

coercion and Gregory as well as deliberate attempt to frustrate the

enquiry. We will be speaking to Len McCluskey, the Unite union's General

Secretary, in a moment. First out the saga began an almost ended up

with the loss of 800 jobs at a petrochemical plant in Grangemouth.

Unite were key players in the Grangemouth dispute and the union

headed by Len McCluskey has come under fire for its intimidator Tariq

tactics. In one instance demonstrators complete with an

inflatable rat picketed the home of a INEOS director. The police were

called. It was part of a strategy the union called leverage. But

turning up at people's houses seems to represent an escalation. At the

centre of the rout was Steve in deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS

launched an investigation into him as he was suspected of using company

time to engineer the selection of labour's candidate in Falkirk. That

candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans

resigned last week and denies any wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic

climb-down by Unite union. Len McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to

the Sunday Times we now know what is in this labour report on the Falkirk

vote rigging. Forgery, coercion trickery, manipulation. You must be

ashamed of how Unite union behaved in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article

is lazy journalism. There is nothing new in the article. This was all

dealt with by the Labour Party in the summer. We rejected those

allegations then and we said we had done nothing wrong and both the

Labour Party and the police in Scotland indicated there had been no

wrongdoing. The report itself says you were trying to thwart the

investigation. First you tried to fix the selection of a candidate to

get your woman in and then you thwarted the investigation into the

dirty deeds. The reality is the Labour Party report was deeply

flawed. The Labour Party then instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to

do an in-depth investigation and during that investigation they got

to the bottom of what had happened and they decided there was no

wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I was so confident we had done

nothing, I called for an independent enquiry. They were forced to

conclude there was no wrongdoing because the people who originally

complained changed their evidence and we now know they did so because

Unite union officials helped them to rewrite their retraction and Stevie

Deans approved it. That is not true. We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into

the public arena and what is that all about? Who is leaking this? They

showed the Unite union was rewriting the retractions. This interview

would go a lot better if you are allowed me to finish the question

that you asked. These e-mails were put into the public arena by the PR

company from INEOS. Why are they doing this? The truth of the matter

is that all of the investigations that took place demonstrate there

was nothing to answer. This idea that the Unite union has rewritten

and the evidence from the families has been withdrawn, the families are

a part of Stevie deems' family. They clarified the position. Do you deny

that union officials were involved in the retractions? I deny it

completely. This is important. Independent solicitors to witness

statements from the family and they are the ones that were influencing

the Labour Party with the position is clarified and there is no case to

answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw their retractions? It is his family.

So you do not deny it? It is his family. This is an ordinary, decent

family who were faced with the full weight of the pleas, a forensic

solicitor. Of course they spoke to Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a

cesspit. Does it not need an independent investigation? This is a

trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all the

demands. The media, the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, the Conservative

mouthpiece, they are laying tracks for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband

should not fall into them. Since when did it become part of an

industrial dispute to send mobs to the home of company families. This

is a legitimate form of protest and it is a silent protest. We believe

if faceless directors are making decisions that cripple communities,

they cannot expect to simply drift back to their own leafy suburbia and

not be countable. This is silent protest. It is lawful. It may be

silent in Grangemouth, but it was not silent elsewhere. You went with

a giant rat, loud-hailers telling everybody the neighbour was evil.

No, we did not. You had loud-hailers, you even encouraged

passing children in Grangemouth to join in. That is nonsense. Look at

the rat. The reality is the Grangemouth community was going to

be decimated, Grangemouth was going to become a ghost town. I reject

totally this idea there were loud-hailers and children involved.

That is a lie perpetrated by the Daily Mail. But you have used these

tactics in other disputes. We have used the tactics in other disputes,

but we have not used loud-hailers at people's homes. Because the labour

laws are so restrictive we have to look at every available means that

we can protest. It is an outrage, an absolute outrage, that this is

happening to British workers in the 21st-century. It could not happen

elsewhere. Is not intimidation the wider hallmark of your union? You

were quoted as saying to do whatever it takes during your attempts to

take over the Labour Falkirk constituency. You were instructing

to dig out the nasty stuff on your opponents. That is not true. Let's

see these e-mails? This is a con trick. Nobody is looking to dig

out... This is the words of your legal services advisor. Unite has

tried to instigate a revival of trade union values within the Labour

Party. That is what Ed Miliband wanted us to do. As soon as we

started to be in any way ineffective, there were screams and

howls of derision. When the company started to investigate Stevie Deans,

your friend, your campaign manager, that he was using company time to

moonlight on the job, you called INEOS and said unless you stop the

investigation we will bring Grangemouth to a standstill. I never

said that at all. You brought it to a standstill. We never brought it to

a standstill, the company did. Who says that I said that we would bring

it to a standstill? You have read it in the newspapers. You should not

believe everything. I did not make that threat to the management. You

carried the threat out. You instigated an overtime ban and a

work to rule. And that is what Grangemouth to a standstill because

the company decided to close the petrochemical site down. Because

Stevie Deans was suspended due introduced industrial action? Our

members in Grangemouth felt he was being unfairly treated. In the end

you're grandstanding almost cost Scotland is most important

industrial facility. The day was saved by your total capitulation.

Grandstanding, capitulation and humiliation are grand phrases. There

is nothing about capitulation. Len McCluskey did not wake up one day

and decide to have a dispute with INEOS. The workers in that factory

democratically elect their shop stewards to represent them and to

express to management their concerns and their views. That is what

happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has condemned your union's handling of

Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have you considered your position? Jack

Straw and others in the Labour Party, you have to ask them what

their agenda is. I am not interested in what he says. The truth of the

matter is we responded to the requirements and needs of our

members. At a mass meeting last Monday 100% supported their shop

stewards and their union. We will continue to stand shoulder to

shoulder with our members when they are faced with difficult situations.

You have lost all the union rights. You have had to agree to a no strike

rule, you have lost pension rights. We have not lost rights at all, we

are still working with the company to implement its survival plan. The

Prime Minister is always attacking unions and just lately he has taken

to praising the automotive industry. Jaguar Land Rover,

Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all Unite union members were the shop

stewards are engaged positively to implement survival plans and to make

a success for the company. That is what we do, but by the same token we

stand shoulder to shoulder with our members who are in struggle and we

will always do that and we will not be cowed by media attacks on us Is

your leadership not proving to be as disastrous for the members as Arthur

Scargill was for the NUM? My membership is growing. I am

accountable to my members, two are executive, and the one thing they

will know is that when they want me standing shoulder to shoulder with

them when they have a problem, I will be there, despite the

disgraceful attacks launched on us by the media.

"A country ready to welcome your investment which values your

friendship and will never exclude anyone because of their race,

religion, colour or creed." The words of the Prime minister at the

World Islamic Economic Forum which was hosted for the first time in

London this week. The PM's warm words are sure to be welcomed by

British Muslims who have endured a spate of negative headlines. There's

been the controversy over the wearing of the veil, attitudes to

women, and the radicalisation of some young British Muslims. In a

moment I'll be talking to the Secretary General of the Muslim

Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. First - here's Giles Dilnot. The

call to Friday prayers at the east London Mosque which has strong links

with the Muslim Council of Britain, one of the more vocal groups amongst

British Muslims. Despite the fact it frequently happens, it is neither

helpful nor accurate to describe the British Muslim community. There are

so many different sects, traditions, cultures and

nationalities, it is more accurate to describe the British Muslim

communities, but there is one question being put to them - are

they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues Are

they willing to confront radicalisation, attitudes to

non-muslins, two women, and cases of sexual exploitation in a meaningful

way? A number of them say no, not nearly enough. This former jihad de

has spent ten years telling young Muslim teenagers how they can reject

extremist radicalisation, using Outward Bound courses and community

work, but he and others doing this work thing -- think some elders are

failing the youngsters. This has been going on for decades, one

figures -- thing is said in public to please people but in private

something very different is being said and the messages are being

confused. Some of the young people, it pushes them further into a space

where they are vulnerable for radical recruiters. For many Muslim

youngsters, life is about living 1's faith within an increasingly secular

society, a struggle not helped if rigid interpretations of the Koran

are being preached, say some sectors. Some practices often don't

make sense in 21st-century Britain, and you are perhaps creating

obstacles if you stick to those and it is perhaps better to let go of

those cultural problems, especially when they need to clear injustices

like forced marriage, reticence to talk about grooming for example or

discrimination against women. There is a long list but I am very clear

that in fact the bad Muslim is the one who sticks to unflinching,

narrow dogmatic fundamentalist perception of religion. One issue

often focused on is the wearing of minicab. Polling suggests 80% of

Britons would favour a ban in public places. -- the niqab. Many people

don't seem to recognise the legacy of the niqab. Many people preach

that women should be sidelined and that they are sexual objects that

should be covered up and the preservation of morality falls on

their shoulders. The Muslim Council of Britain recently got praise for

holding a conference on combating sexual exploitation. In the wake of

abuse cases that had involved predominantly Pakistani men. For one

man who has followed the story for some years, the Muslim Council of

Britain needs to do much more. We need to get along together and if

things like attitudes towards the normal slim girl in stark contrast

to the expression of honour and chastity of the Muslim girl, your

sister or daughter, are such that actions that would be an fought off

with a slim girl becomes permissible with a white girl, then we are all

in trouble. To some, attitudes to women are not limited to sexual

interactions at the very structures of life in Muslim communities and

indeed the Muslim Council of Britain itself. I would like to ask the

Muslim Council of Britain what they are doing about the fact that very

few mosques give voices to are doing about the fact that very

the fact that someone women are experiencing female genital

mutilation and forced marriages what about the women who are getting

married and their marriages are not being registered and they are being

left homeless and denied maintenance rights, what about the fact there

are sharia rights that have been found to be discriminating against

women, and the fact there are men in this country who continue to hold

misogynistic views about women, what are you doing? The occasional press

release will not solve this problem of a deeply patriarchal community.

That all of these issues can be exploited to the point of Islam

phobia is not doubted, but many Muslims feel that unless the

communities do tackle this openly, a big cultural gap will exist between

the two. And the Secretary General of the

Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, joins me now. One visible

sign that sets muslins aside is the veils that cover women's faces. Do

you think it makes them impossible to be part of mainstream society?

The niqab is not an obligatory requirement. But do you accept that

those who wear it are cutting themselves off from mainstream

society? Some people do, and whilst wearing niqab, some of them are

working in various walks of life successfully and it is seen as a

faith requirement, but it is a red herring in the sense that it applies

to such a small number of Muslim girls. For many Muslim preachers,

isn't separation precisely the point of the niqab? Certainly not, if you

look at the Muslim women in the public sphere, we have many very

successful women. But not the ones who are veiled. Not in the public

arena as such, but the veil is a practice which is practised by a

very small number. Do you favour it? I personally think it is not a

requirement. But do you think women should wear the veil? I think it is

wrong to force women to wear the veil. I asked if in your opinion

women should wear the veil? It is important not to force women to wear

the veil. Should they of their free choice where the veil? A lot of

individuals do things out of their free choice which I do not approve

of, I don't think it is conducive it helps their cause, but I do not have

the right to take their choice away from them. I am still unsure if you

think it is a good thing or a bad thing. Are not many Muslim women in

this country being forced by Muslim preachers and often their male

relations who want to keep Muslim women their place? As I said, it is

wrong for anyone to force Muslim women. But how would we ever know in

a family if a woman was being forced? Exactly, we don't know what

is going on in people 's homes and what pressure is being applied. I

want you to look at this picture, very popular on Islamic websites,

and it shows the women who is wearing the niqab having a straight

route to heaven, and the other Muslim woman dressed in western gear

condemned to hell. Do you consider that a proper message for Muslim

women? Not at all, I don't. So any Islamic websites in Britain... The

Muslim Council of Britain is an organisation of five affiliates from

across the country and this is not coming from any of them. As I said,

those minority views propagated by individuals should not be used to

represent Muslim community. So that would not have the support of the

Muslim Council of Britain? It would not have the support. What about the

Muslim free school that requires children as young as 11 to wear a

black veil outside of school? Do you agree with that? I am not sure

exactly what the policy is... I have just told you, do you agree that

girls as young as 11 should wear a black burka outside of school? I

don't think it should be imposed on anybody. But this is the desired

dress School of the Muslim females. I am asking for your view. I said it

at the beginning that I do not think it should be imposed. Would you send

your daughter to a school that would wear a black burka at the age of 11?

Would you? No. It seems that some muslins are determined to segregate

young Muslim girls right from the start to very early from society. It

is not their segregation as such, I would say that there are faith

schools, if you look at an Islamic girls school in Blackburn in a

traditional setting, it has come the top of the league table this year in

the secondary school league tables. But it doesn't make 11-year-olds

wear black burkas. Many of those girls go on to have a successful

career. Not wearing black burkas. I am sure there are examples of women

who do have successful careers. There is a very conservative

movement from the continent on Islam, and the issue supposedly

based on Islamic law on their website. Here is one of their recent

judgements. The female is encouraged to remain within the confines of her

home as much as possible, she should not come out of the home without

need and necessity. What do you think of that? We need to say the

whole context of that quote. They are saying they should stay at home

as much as possible, do you agree with that? I see many Muslim women

who are walking about... But this is what the mosque is recommending

women should do. The practice is quite the contrary. Let me show you

another one. Another Fatwa. Do you agree with that? These have been

picked out from material dating back to different cultural settings and

in practice they are not applied. This is advice being given as we

speak. This is not being practised. Do you agree with it? No, not at

all. These are from the DL Monday mosques, how come 72 of these

mosques are affiliated to your counsel? There may be publications

from one of their scholars, but they have been written in countries

abroad and translated. This is advice being given to young women

now. They are affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain. Do you

ever speak to them about that? The Muslim Council is a very broad

organisation. We are working on lots of common issues to create a

community which positively integrates. Did you ever speak to

them to say this is not appropriate for British Muslims? There may be

certain ad buys and publications available, but people make their

choices. So it is OK for your organisation to issue things like

that? Many of these things will fall under scrutiny and we need to create

that. Why do only 26% of British mosques have facilities for women?

If you go back to the requirement of prayer, it was not obligatory for

women to come to the masks to prayer. When a poorer community

began putting up mosques at the very beginning in terraced houses... Did

you have a policy to encourage them? Is it on your website? It is in our

practices that 20% of the council have to be female. Coming out of

this movement there is a conscious stream of superiority between

Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at this quote. He is a well-known

picture in this country. That is what he wants to stop. I

disagree with that. We believe we live in this society and Muslims in

any society of the world, and they have historically lived as

minorities in many countries... You would this associate yourself from

that? Why do you allow people like that to be affiliated to you? The

requirement is for any organisation to be affiliated is that they are

bound by the Charity commission s rules and regulations. We only

accept those who are under the law of this country. This is a matter of

taste. Let me move on to a bigger issue. In 2009 you signed the

Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul declaration was signed. Do you still

support it? No, we never signed it or supported it. One of your leading

lights signed it. In the media mainstream he defended his position.

You have this associated yourself from it? What is wrong with that? I

am not sure about the declaration because we disassociated ourselves.

Before reading it? We did not sign it. You have not read it? I do not

know all the aspects of the declaration, but at the time in the

national newspapers and media there was a discussion and a debate and it

was highlighted that that was not what was meant by the declaration.

When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From

day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are

personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of

extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the

mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described

by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another

speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad

is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop

extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?

We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or

supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is

a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is

a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told

their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to

speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a

Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did

not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and

have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I

completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,

the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the

toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which

embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim

community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which

are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our

view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The

work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all

associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke

Thank you, Andrew, and welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West

Coming up this week: Forget fruit machines or placing a bet on the

horses. You can pump ?100 every 20 seconds

into one of these. So is it time for politicians to get tough with

bookies making a fast buck from gamblers?

We won't be taking bets on who will win the political debate here on the

programme today. Joining us is the Pensions Minister Steve Webb and a

Labour candidate in Northeast Somerset, Todd Foreman. Let's talk

about pensions. Say you have someone paying ?100 a month into their

pension, a modest amount. Over the lifetime of that policy, how much is

going on charges? If you are paying 1%, which sounds innocuous, although

your tire `` over your entire life, you could find ?100,000 in charges.

We said we cannot allow that to happen and we will look at how we

can cap charges so that even more of people's money is going into

pensions and not costs. You're capping it at 0.5%. A lot of charges

are below that, so pension companies will think, we can get away with it.

The big firms, supermarkets and banks have chosen pension schemes

for employees. They have buying power and can get a low costs. We're

going to go through every employer in the land to make sure that

everybody can have access to reasonable pension. Why should

anyone even bother with a pension when it is going to be frittered

away on charges? You might as well wait and let the state take care of

you. The big difference is the fun puts money in, the Government puts

money in and you put money in. In a sense, your ?1 becomes ?2 overnight.

If you want more than the basic state pension, which will be about

?7,000 a year, if you want more than that, to have to do something about

it. People are fed up with big companies creaming off profits from

people. Is there an opportunity from Labour here? I think there is a huge

opportunity here. As with energy companies, this is a market that

really isn't working. Part of that is because there isn't enough

transparency. I would applaud some steps that the Government have taken

in terms of transparency of pensions. That is what Labour and Ed

Miliband have been calling for for a long time. The first question you

had for Steve was, how much are people paying in terms of charges

for pensions? It is important people know that, because whilst these

regulations will bring in transparency on annual fees, Labour

puts down a `` puts down an amendment that will require

transparency for all fees. We would take it that stepfather to have even

more transparency about the fees people pay. `` we would stick it

that step further. Forget that machines are having a flutter on the

horses, today, except to the betting shop can have much higher stakes. A

new type of betting machine has proved a bonanza for bookies. It is

growing political pressure for change.

Every walk down the high street and the watch a town where he lives is

difficult for James Petherick. He has lost a fortune in his

bookmakers. He has been a problem gambler for 20 years. I have been

homeless, slept in my car, lost jobs through my gambling. I'm trying to

give up. But for some reason, the addiction takes hold and you're

straight back in the doing it again. With these terminals, I was doing it

twice as much, twice as fast. These are the machines he has comfortable.

The cold fixed odds betting terminals. They look like other slot

machines but the stakes can be huge. You can plan them ?100 every 20

seconds. `` you can put in. Because of the speed of play, you do not get

time to think. When you go to a casino, you have one minute and a

half. On these machines, it is so quick. It is almost as fast as

playing a fruit machine. It is 0p ago. These will machines are ?1 0 a

spin. Shop can have up to four machines. These betting terminals

have proved a big moneyspinner for bookmakers. New shops have opened

up, especially in less well`off areas. Here in South Bristol, there

are no less than 19 bookies. Customers using the machines last

year blew three and a half million pounds. The Bath MP Don Foster rated

at his party conference. If you look at the figures, the vast majority of

profits, something like 70%, are coming from these fixed odds betting

terminals. When you have clusters of these shops, you almost have a high

street casino with more high`powered machines than you actually find in a

properly regulated, better supervised casino. He would like the

stakes slashed. Others want to go further. Will the Prime Minister

consider banning these addictive machines, as has recently happened

in Ireland? He got a hint that there could be change. It is worth having

a proper look at this issue to see what we can do to make sure that,

yes, we want a bookmakers that are not overregulated, but any other

hand, a fair approach and a decent approach to prevent problem

gambling. This is the first of my video diaries regarding my gambling

addiction. James Petherick resorted to baring his soul online with the

diary of a compulsive gambler. There is no point to my life, no point to

anything. I gambled for most of my life, for 30 years. It is only now

that I have opened onto friends family. And the rest of the world as

well in my future blog. That is how I managed to give up. He's just

about coping. Thousands of others aren't.

Joining us is James Barrow from the Association of British Bookmakers.

Well, long. These machines are totally responsible, aren't they?

They are not. There is no evidence to suggest they are any different to

other gambling products. Research has shown problem gamblers

participate in a variety of different forms of gambling. We have

to put this in perspective. We have 10 million customers who enjoy the

entertainment we have in our shops, and the overwhelming majority gamble

responsibly. However, we ask responsible businesses to help with

those who have problems. You can put ?100 into one of these machines in

20 seconds. The average bet is about ?10. To try and do more recently, we

have launched a court to protect players. It is world`leading and

involves better training for shop staff, so they can identify problem

gamblers, better leaflets in the shops, and allows players on the

gaming machines to set limits on how much they spend and how much they

stay on the machine. How much profit do these machines make in a week?

The average would`be 600 or ?70 a week. Do they ever lose? In the long

run, the bookmakers will win. But the machines are always programmes

to make a profit? The reason it is high`stakes, is because of a high

return to players. I have done a bit of research before I came on here.

In this posh area where we're sitting now, I cannot find any

bookies. And on the working there are six. `` in and working`class

area. The number of bookmakers in any location correlates to the

population of that area. For example, in London, Westminster has

the greatest number of betting shops. You have to remember that the

number of betting shops is 8500 down from 16,000 in the 1960s. We

employ 3000 people in the South West, we pay taxes, and at a time

when it is needed, we generate footfall in the high street. So it

is a coincidence that in some of the poor areas, there is nothing but

bookies in the high street? That is not the case. We target commercial

centres. If you look at the graph, it correlates the number of people

in the area. It is well that is demand for our products. Let's bring

in the politicians. Congratulations, gambling is one industry which must

be booming under the Coalition. What we have just held as incredibly

complacent. Don Foster is absolutely right. Manage gambling and a number

of book will `` bookmakers. In the past, councils have not been able to

say we do not want too many bookies on the high street. These machines

must be controlled. James said in his film, I do not have time to

think. I just want to get on with it. People out of control and need

support and help, not just be told to read as leaflet. It is like

Vegas, isn't it? I agree this is an issue in terms of hearing about

these lower income areas having more of these shops. It seems they also

have this evil twin in the high street also coming in. I would like

to see more powerful local councils to stop these and for more local

people to shape the kind of high street they want. We have worked

very hard with our new codes to make sure people do not get into trouble.

As James said in his clip, we don't want problem gamblers at all. Val

d'Or is always open and B are willing to proactively engage with

local councils. `` our door is always open. If you're only taking

2% and taking hundreds of pounds, there must be a phenomenal amount of

money going through these machines. That is not the case at all. The

average stake is ?10. It is as a sports bets. You think people on

benefits should be allowed to gamble? I do not want to tell people

how to spend the money. People on benefits have to spend most of what

they have an essential. But you have to protect people against, as the

man said in the film, when you have lost control, a problem gamblers not

making a measure of choice. It is an addiction. You cannot expose people

to these things. Why is David Cameron reluctant to bring in

tougher rules? I'm not sure he is. In Government, we are wary of

overregulating in general. He said he would have a serious look at it.

You are planning more shops, is that right? No, it is not. Shop numbers

are down in the last ten years. We hope to protect people. Problem

gamblers in this country are less than 1% and they want to do just

that for the. `` ridges that father. Independent councillors in Froome in

Somerset tried to wrestle local services away from politicians in

the county and district councils. But will they be able to run things

better and more cheaply? Historic Frome. Famous for

clothmaking, its hoard of Roman coins, and a certain racing driver.

These streets haven't seen riots since the 1700s, but now some say a

political revolution's underway It started with this lot.

Independent candidates sang their way to success in the town council

election two years ago. Since then they've bumped up the precept, and

taken on services from the county and district councils. This is

Palmer Street ` Frome Town Council's planning to resurface it with

cobbles ` normally the domain of the County Council. They're also taking

on the showfield from the District Council, and want control of the

town's main car park too. This week, the town council rounded up the

three tiers of local Government for a meeting they called One Frome

Working together. It is not about sovereignty or will not ship, it is

about trying to deal with the people we serve. I find tonight has not let

me up in terms of where we're going. There is something we need to do.

The average person on the street will not understand why the councils

cannot work together in a way that is productive. It wasn't plain

sailing, but not much that's happened in Frome recently has been.

If you talk to the woman on the street and said to her, do you know

that we do not talk together? They would say, that is not the way I

want my democracy to work. We should be talking rationally about where

cuts might, and what the impact might be on the town. Mel Usher s no

stranger to politics ` he was chief executive of one of the biggest

district councils in the country ` but now says he sees the value of

smaller scale Government. Towns like this should begin to take the local

decision`making and perhaps decide their own destiny in the future If

we do not, I do not know who will do that. I would find it helpful if we

had a more clear direction. But not everyone's sure about the town

council's rise to power. If the town council takes on more services, the

council to will not go down because it is really cut. What you have then

is a situation of double taxation. What I am into is looking at who is

the best person to run the service, who can do it for real value for

money for the public, and who can do it best. The rise of the independent

politician has rattled traditional party members. The number of

initiatives and projects underway at a cost. That cost is significant

spending, bordering, borrowing and a pretty high precept. I think it is

important to the from precept feels that services are delivered in an

effective way and provide good value. Whether it's welcomed by all

parties, Frome certainly seems to be having a political renaissance. This

park will soon be in the hands of the town council, showing that in

this part of Somerset, localism rules the roost.

Joining us is Nick White who's the former Mayor of Frome and an

independent councillor. What is all this wanting more powers all the

time? You're not getting too big for you Brits, are you? `` for you

Brits, are you? I do not think we are. When we came to power, we felt

things could be run better in Froome than had been in the past. The town

council had got caught up in party politics and we didn't think that

was relevant in running a town council. Since we have gained

control of the council, we came up with a number of initiatives we

think will improve and enhance the town. The trouble is, we keep

running up against District Council and county councilss in being able

to take over some of those services and provisions. The item it might be

you are parochial and cannot see the larger picture. `` the adamant might

be. I think... It is a difficult question. We have to go back,

actually, you have flummoxed me Is it reasonable that you do not see

the problems and districts as a whole because you're so worried

about Frome? It is the biggest town within Mendip District Council.

There has always been a tendency in Frome that we do not get value for

money from Mendip. We are the largest contributor but possibly not

the biggest benefactor. Let's bring in the politicians once more. Where

your counsellor? I was not. Is there a reason why the big parties should

be involved in local politics? What is political about climbing the

drains and cobbling the street? Any level of Government has politics to

it. As a counsellor, I offer myself to the electorate as someone with a

programme and I George that is coherent with a manifesto we can

stand on. I think that is perfectly reasonable. `` with the programme

and manifesto. But there is no politics about putting cobbles on a

road, is there? It's a question of resource and how the taxpayer pays

for it. It is a public space and a question of resource and how you're

going to allocated. We have larger towns which have Lib Dem councils.

The smaller ones and independence. You're talking about spending

potentially millions of pounds. In Yate, that the Dems are keen on

youth services. They created a gift cafe. They delivered. `` a youth

cafe. There are differences at a very local level. Do you see

yourselves as pioneers in Frome I think we have broken a bit of old or

went back to a time when party politics wasn't as influential.

Maybe we have rode the boat back of it by getting more involved as

independents. People all over the country are watching you to see what

is being done. Thank you for coming in and talking about it today. It is

time now for a round`up of the week's political stories in 60

seconds. Ed Miliband was in town meeting

party activists. Many locally admit they have a mountain to climb if

they're to win back seats here. We have got a message about how we

can freeze energy prices, abolish bedroom tax, strengthen the minimum

wage, help with childcare, which is absolutely well the concerns of

people across the South West are. The parents of Catherine Wells`Burr,

from Somerset ` who was murdered last year ` are backing a new code

that will allow bereaved families to read out a personal statement in

court themselves. If you like a drop of jam or marmalade on your Sunday

morning toast, then listen up Tessa I am concerned this will be the end

of the British breakfast as we know it. Tessa Munt says plans to reduce

the minimum amount of sugar in jam from 60 to 50% will turn it into

brown gloop, whilst the Government claims it will boost exports.

I was putting jam on my toast this morning and I stopped when I

realised how much sugar was in it. Let's talk about Ed Miliband and his

visit to Bristol this week. Is he winning the adamant, do you think,

although the cost of living? Labour is winning the adamant. In the last

few months, we have seen that Labour is framing the debate. We started

talking about energy prices, for example, at conference. Labour said,

look, the markets are not working on energy when there are price rises.

When prices do not go back down energy companies are keeping the

difference for themselves. The market is broken here and people are

feeling the pinch. Labour has managed to change the subject and

the Coalition seems to be scrambling to catch up. Is he right? I shadowed

Ed Miliband when he was the Secretary of State in charge of

energy. Funnily enough, if the market is broken, why didn't he fix

it? What about these green taxes? They are a small part of the mix.

There is a lot we can do it is make sure people are not wasting energy.

We are doing a large amount of that but there is more to be done. The

idea that energy companies will freeze prices and will not jack them

up before and afterwards is not right. If energy companies want to

do that before the next election because they fear Labour will win,

that will raise questions of competition law. Increasing the

prices is a legal? If they do it as a cartel... They could legally do

it. But Labour said is they will bring in a freeze in places as a

pause. The market is not working here and we need to pause and see

how it will work. It could be you will be working with Ed Miliband.

You would be quite comfortable with that, wouldn't you? On the left of

the Lib Dems. Plan a is to work with Nick, I'm afraid. We worry about

that after the election. We shall see. That is we have got

time for this week thank you to our guests for joining us. We will be a

little later next Sunday because of the Remembrance Sunday service. For

now, back to Andrew for the rest of the day's programme. If

Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's

relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the

Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka

Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did

earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.

Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the

Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative

mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he

should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey

denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial

dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side

is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send

its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened

in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families

out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset

particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of

things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own

report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -

forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was

being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the

report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is

something that the police are looking into so that is not

something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We

learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained

to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour

Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party

and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are

looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like

the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil

Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed

Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not

worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?

Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we

have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many

respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further

ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship

with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of

the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to

vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but

they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and

that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do

things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour

Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in

which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us

in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3

million working people who ensure our public services function. At

Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk

Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd

just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to

give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be

confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to

take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our

Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed

Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in

special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite

union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean

according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the

meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer

free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your

turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the

allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the

Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their

rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at

Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of

their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to

our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will

find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets

tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working

in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port

and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets

overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from

unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite

know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears

used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private

sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was

born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of

their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they

can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But

there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is

right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for

their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their

aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their

workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the

protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has

said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.

He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the

radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that

was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend

to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like

land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing

the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.

million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The

business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances

back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being

used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater

variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro

enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a

living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but

there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business

because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is

good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are

not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax

credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know

after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living

wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and

we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party

pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a

living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.

What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle

as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one

of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this

soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working

together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.

That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be

here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at

the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.

To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.

There were the objects that were making the Earth.

We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.

Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?

This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.