10/11/2013 Sunday Politics West


10/11/2013

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news. With deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman, UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and a look at calls to remove the Sun's Page 3.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on

:00:36.:00:42.

the war path over pay day loans your energy bill and what he calls

:00:43.:00:47.

the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls

:00:48.:00:52.

don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's

:00:53.:00:55.

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage

:00:56.:01:00.

won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be

:01:01.:01:08.

talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page

:01:09.:01:11.

three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with

:01:12.:01:14.

some balls. Stay. It is good In the West ` as we remember the

:01:15.:01:29.

fallen, who are today's enemies One terrorist group has issued a video

:01:30.:01:32.

people from Bristol to fight a holy people from Bristol to fight a holy

:01:33.:01:34.

row over the super sewer rumbles on. And with me, fresh from their

:01:35.:01:47.

success at yesterday's Star Wars auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan

:01:48.:01:54.

Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick

:01:55.:01:58.

Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in

:01:59.:02:02.

Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a

:02:03.:02:12.

breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go

:02:13.:02:15.

far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has

:02:16.:02:19.

been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at

:02:20.:02:21.

a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this

:02:22.:02:25.

to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in

:02:26.:02:30.

the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying

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again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We

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will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind

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solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it

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will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with

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Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are

:03:02.:03:05.

looking the case for the kind of deal we are

:03:06.:03:10.

interests of the whole world, including

:03:11.:03:15.

interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic

:03:16.:03:16.

agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will

:03:17.:03:24.

threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the

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future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems

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future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the

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Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took

:03:39.:03:51.

the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough

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line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon I

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am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the

:04:02.:04:06.

talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on

:04:07.:04:11.

Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.

:04:12.:04:21.

Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge

:04:22.:04:27.

saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this

:04:28.:04:33.

year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The

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next round of talks will be at official level. The place to watch

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will be Israel. The language which has been coming out of there is

:04:47.:04:52.

still incredibly angry, incredibly defensive. They do not want a deal

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at all. Presumably John Kerry has to go away and tried to get Israel to

:05:03.:05:07.

be quiet about it, even if they cannot be happy about it. They

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cannot agree to a deal which allows the Iraq reactor with plutonium

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heavy water. You do not need that with a peaceful nuclear power

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programme will stop that is why the Israelis are so nervous. If there is

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an international deal, Israel could still bomb that but it would be

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impossible. The French tactics are interesting. It says the French

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blocked it in part because they are trying to carry favour with Israel

:05:52.:05:57.

but also the Gulf Arab states, who are really nervous about and

:05:58.:06:02.

Iranians nuclear capability. Who is that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a

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story saying that Pakistan is prepared to provide them with

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nuclear weapons. You are right about Saudi Arabia. They are much more

:06:19.:06:24.

against this deal than Israel. Who is Herman van Rompuy's favourite

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MEP? It is probably not Nigel Farage. He plummeted to the bottom

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of the EU president's Christmas card list after comparing him to a bank

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clerk with the charisma of a damp rag. And he's been at it again this

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week. Have a look. Today is November the 5th, a big celebration festival

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day in England. That was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament

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with dynamite and destroy the Constitution. You have taken the

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Dahl, technocratic approach to all of these things. What you and your

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colleagues save time and again you talk about initiatives and what you

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are going to do about unemployment. The reality is nothing in this union

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is getting better. The accounts have not been signed off for 18 years. I

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am now told it is 19 and you are doing your best to tone down any

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criticism. Whatever growth figures you may have, they are anaemic.

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Youth unemployment in the Mediterranean is over 50% in several

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states. You will notice there is a rise in opposition dashed real

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opposition. Much of it ugly opposition, not stuff that I would

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want to link hands with. And Nigel Farage joins me now. Let me put to

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you what the editor of the Sun had to say. He says, UKIP will peak at

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the European election and then it will begin to get marginalised as we

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get closer to 2015 because there is now that clear blue water between

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Labour and the Tories. What do you say to that? There may be layered

:08:08.:08:14.

blue water on energy pricing but on Eastern Europe, there is no

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difference at all. When Ed Miliband offers the referendum to match

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Cameron, even that argument on Europe will be gone. The one thing

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that will keep UKIP strong, heading towards 2015, is if people think in

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some constituencies we can win. I cannot sit here right now and say

:08:35.:08:38.

that will be the case. If we get over the hurdle of the European

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elections clearly, I think there will be grounds to say that UKIP can

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win seats in Westminster. You are going to run? Without a shadow of a

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doubt. I do not know which constituency. The welcome I got in

:08:56.:09:01.

Edinburgh was not that friendly Edinburgh is not everything in

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Scotland. I think we have a realistic chance of winning those

:09:07.:09:10.

elections. If we do that, we will have the momentum behind us. You

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might be the biggest party after the May elections. The National front is

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likely to do very well in France as well. They have won the crucial

:09:21.:09:27.

by-election in the South of France. Have you talked about joining full

:09:28.:09:34.

season in Parliament? The leader has tried to take the movement into a

:09:35.:09:40.

different direction than her father. The man she beat, to become leader,

:09:41.:09:47.

actually attended the BNP conference. The problem she has with

:09:48.:09:52.

her party and we have with her party is that anti-Semitism is too deep

:09:53.:09:56.

and we will not be doing a deal with the French national government. You

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can guarantee you will not be joining such groups. I can guarantee

:10:03.:10:11.

that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's accept that the pro-Europeans

:10:12.:10:14.

exaggerate the loss of jobs that would follow the departure of

:10:15.:10:21.

Britain from the UK. Is there no risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk

:10:22.:10:30.

whatsoever. There is no risk at all. There have been some weak and lazy

:10:31.:10:37.

arguments put around about this We will go on doing business - go on

:10:38.:10:44.

doing trade with Europe. We will have increased opportunities to do

:10:45.:10:48.

trade deals with the rest of the world and they will create jobs The

:10:49.:10:57.

head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi and CBI many other voices in British

:10:58.:11:02.

business, when they all expressed concern about the potential loss of

:11:03.:11:08.

jobs and incoming investment, we should just ignore them. With

:11:09.:11:16.

Nissan, the BBC News is making this a huge story. The boss did not say

:11:17.:11:25.

what was reported. He said there was a potential danger to his future

:11:26.:11:30.

investment. They have already made the investments. They have built the

:11:31.:11:35.

plant in Sunderland, which they say is operating well. We should be

:11:36.:11:39.

careful of what bosses of big businesses say. This man said they

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may have two leaves Sunderland if we did not join the euro. I do not take

:11:44.:11:49.

that seriously. As for the CBI, they wanted us to join the euro and now

:11:50.:11:55.

they do not. Even within the CBI, there is a significant minority

:11:56.:12:00.

saying, we do not agree with what the CBI director-general is saying.

:12:01.:12:03.

The former boss of the organisation is saying we need a referendum and

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we need a referendum soon. It depends on the renegotiation. There

:12:10.:12:14.

is not the uniformity. What we are beginning to see in the world, is,

:12:15.:12:18.

manufacturing and small businesses are a lot more voices saying, the

:12:19.:12:25.

costs of membership outweigh any potential benefit. If you look at

:12:26.:12:33.

the polls, if Mr Cameron does repatriate some powers and he joins

:12:34.:12:40.

with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales,

:12:41.:12:45.

most of business, all of the unions to say we should stay in, you are

:12:46.:12:54.

going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75, the circumstances were exactly the

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same. Mr Wilson promised a renegotiation and he got very

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little. The establishment gathered around him and they voted for us to

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stay in. I do not think that will happen now. The scales have fallen.

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We do not want to be governed by Herman Van Rompuy and these people.

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These people are Eurosceptic but they do not seem to feel strongly

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enough about it that they are going to defy all the major parties they

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vote for, companies that employ them, unions they are members of. I

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am absolutely confident there will be a lot voices in business saying,

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we need to take this opportunity to break free, give ourselves a chance

:13:38.:13:46.

of a low regulation lowball trader. -- global trade. In 1970 53 small

:13:47.:14:06.

publications said to vote yes. I am not contemplating losing. The most

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important thing is to get the referendum. If UKIP is not strong,

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there will not be a referendum. Earlier in the year, your party

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issued a leaflet about the remaining sample parents being able to come to

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this country. The EU will allow 29 million Bulgarians and remaining is

:14:28.:14:30.

to come to the UK. That is technically correct but we both know

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that is not the case. It is an open door to these people. Why take the

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risk? By make out there are 29 million people? I stand by that

:14:56.:15:06.

verdict. It is an open door. 29 million are not going to come. They

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can if they want. Also 29 million people from France can come. After

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these countries have joined, we will do another leaflet saying that Mr

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Cameron wants to open the door to 70 million people from Turkey. That is

:15:25.:15:34.

scaremongering. I would not say that. We have a million young

:15:35.:15:39.

British workers between 16 and 4 without work. A lot of them want

:15:40.:15:44.

work and we do not need another massive oversupply in the unskilled

:15:45.:15:49.

labour market. Why did you have such a bad time on question Time this

:15:50.:15:56.

week? The folk that did not buy your anti-immigration stick. Do you think

:15:57.:16:02.

that group of people in the room was representative of the voters of

:16:03.:16:07.

Boston? What would make you think it was unrepresentative? When the

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county council elections took place this year in Boston, of the seven

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seats, UKIP won five and almost won the other two. I don't think that

:16:15.:16:18.

audience reflected that, but that doesn't matter. How an audience is

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put together, how a panel is put together, on one programme, it

:16:24.:16:28.

doesn't mean much at all. It shows that your anti-immigrant measure

:16:29.:16:31.

doesn't fly as easily as you hoped it would? The opinion polls which

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will be launched on Monday that we are conducting and nearing

:16:36.:16:39.

completion, they show two things. Firstly, an astonishing number of

:16:40.:16:43.

people who think it's irresponsible and wrong to open the doer to

:16:44.:16:48.

Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and crucially, a number of people whose

:16:49.:16:52.

vote in the European elections and subsequent general elections may be

:16:53.:16:54.

determined by the immigration issues. This does matter. It would

:16:55.:16:57.

be the perfect run group the European elections in May for you if

:16:58.:17:02.

a lot of Bulgarians and remainians flooded in. You would like that to

:17:03.:17:06.

happen? I think it will happen. Whether I like it or not, it will

:17:07.:17:11.

happen. You think it will be good for you, it will stir things up If

:17:12.:17:14.

you say to people in poor countries, you can come here, get a job, have a

:17:15.:17:20.

safety net of a benefits system claim child allowance for your kids

:17:21.:17:24.

in Bucharest, people will come You are ready with the arguments

:17:25.:17:29.

already? You will be disappointed if only ten turn up? Whether lots come

:17:30.:17:32.

or not we should. Taking the risk and yes, we are going to make it a

:17:33.:17:35.

major issue in the European election. Let's leave it there.

:17:36.:17:39.

Thank you very much, Nigel Farage. The summer of 2013 was not good for

:17:40.:17:43.

Ed Miliband, with questions over his leadership, low ratings and

:17:44.:17:47.

complaints about no policies. He bounced back with a vengeance at the

:17:48.:17:50.

Labour Conference in September, delivering a speech which this week

:17:51.:17:54.

won the spectator political speech of the year aword. In that speech he

:17:55.:17:58.

focussed on the cost-of-living and promised a temporary freeze on

:17:59.:18:03.

energy prices. Even said this. The next election isn't just going to be

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about policy. It's going to be about how we lead and the character we

:18:11.:18:15.

show. I've got a message for the Tories today. If they want to have a

:18:16.:18:23.

debate, about leadership and character, be my guest And if you

:18:24.:18:29.

want to know the difference between me and David Cameron, here is an

:18:30.:18:34.

easy way to remember it. When it was Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the

:18:35.:18:39.

side of Murdoch. When it was the tobacco lobby versus the cancer

:18:40.:18:44.

charities, he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When the millionaires

:18:45.:18:48.

wanted a tax cut as people pay the bedroom tax, he took the side of the

:18:49.:18:52.

millionaires. A come to think of it, here is an easier way to remember

:18:53.:18:55.

it. David Cameron was a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom

:18:56.:18:59.

tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who repeals the bedroom tax There we go,

:19:00.:19:08.

that will go down with the party faithful on Tuesday. There will be a

:19:09.:19:16.

debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman,

:19:17.:19:21.

joints me now. Let's begin with the bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy.

:19:22.:19:29.

Nearly 11% of people who've come off Housing Benefits all together after

:19:30.:19:33.

their spare room subsidy was stopped, isn't that proof that

:19:34.:19:37.

reform was necessary? No. I think that the whole way that the bet room

:19:38.:19:41.

tax has been attempted to be justified is completely wrong. What

:19:42.:19:45.

it's said is that it will actually help take people off the waiting

:19:46.:19:49.

lists by putting them into homes that have been vacated by people

:19:50.:19:55.

who've downsized by being incentivised by the bedroom tax so

:19:56.:19:59.

basically if you are a council tenant or Housing Association tenant

:20:00.:20:03.

in a property with spare bedrooms, then because the penalty is imposed,

:20:04.:20:06.

you will move to a smaller property. That is the justification for it.

:20:07.:20:11.

But actually, something like 96 of the people who're going to be hit by

:20:12.:20:14.

the bedroom tax, there isn't a smaller property for them to move

:20:15.:20:18.

into. I understand that. Therefore they are, like the people in my

:20:19.:20:21.

constituency, if they have got one spare bedroom, they are hit by 700

:20:22.:20:27.

a year extra to pay and that is completely unfair As a consequence

:20:28.:20:32.

of people losing the subsidy for their spare room, they have decided

:20:33.:20:37.

to go out and get work and not depend on Housing Benefit at all?

:20:38.:20:41.

11% of them. What's wrong with that? Well, they are going to review the

:20:42.:20:46.

way 2 the bedroom tax is working. What is wrong with that? But that's

:20:47.:20:51.

not working. That's the result of Freedom of Information, 141 councils

:20:52.:20:55.

provided the figures, 25,000 who've come off benefits, of the 233,0 0

:20:56.:21:00.

affected, it's about 11%. These people were clearly able to get a

:21:01.:21:03.

job was having the Housing Benefit in the first place? But of course

:21:04.:21:07.

the people who're on the benefits who're not in work are always

:21:08.:21:12.

looking for work and many of them will find work which is a good

:21:13.:21:15.

thing, but for those who don't find work, or who find work where it s

:21:16.:21:20.

low-paid and need help with their rent, it's wrong to penalise them on

:21:21.:21:25.

the basis of the fact that their family might have grown up and moved

:21:26.:21:28.

away and so you have either got to move out of your home, away from

:21:29.:21:32.

your family and your neighbourhood, or you've got to stay where you are

:21:33.:21:37.

and, despite the fact that you are low-paid or unemployed, you have got

:21:38.:21:41.

to find an extra ?700 a year because of your rent. So it's very unfair

:21:42.:21:45.

The Government that was commissioning independent research

:21:46.:21:48.

on the impact of this work change and welfare policy, particularly on

:21:49.:21:52.

the impact on the most vulnerable, some of which you have been talking

:21:53.:21:55.

about there, shouldn't they have waited until you have got the

:21:56.:21:59.

independent research, that independent investigation before

:22:00.:22:02.

determining your policy? No. In fact, the Government should have

:22:03.:22:06.

waited until they'd have done their independent research before they

:22:07.:22:09.

bought into effect something and imposed it on people in a way which

:22:10.:22:16.

is really unfair. They could have known. Why didn't you wait? What

:22:17.:22:20.

they could have done is, they could have asked councils, are people

:22:21.:22:23.

going to be able to Manifest into smaller homes if we impose the

:22:24.:22:28.

bedroom tax and the answer from councils and Housing Associations

:22:29.:22:31.

would have been no, they can't move into smaller homes because which

:22:32.:22:34.

haven't got them there. They should have done the evaluation before they

:22:35.:22:38.

introduced the policy. We are absolutely clear and you can see the

:22:39.:22:42.

evidence, people are falling into rent arrears. Many people, it's a

:22:43.:22:45.

terrifying thing to find that you can't pay your rent, and some of the

:22:46.:22:49.

people go to payday loan companies to get loans to pay their rent. It

:22:50.:22:54.

is very, very unfair. The justification for it, which is

:22:55.:22:58.

people will move, is completely bogus. There aren't places for them

:22:59.:23:04.

to go. On the wider issue of welfare reform, a call for the TUC showed

:23:05.:23:09.

that voters support the Government's welfare reforms, including a

:23:10.:23:12.

majority of Labour voters. Why are you so out of touch on welfare

:23:13.:23:16.

issues, even with your own supporters? Nobody wants to see

:23:17.:23:20.

people who could be in a job actually living at the taxpayers'

:23:21.:23:24.

expense. That's why we have said that we'll introduce a compulsory

:23:25.:23:28.

jobs guarantee, so that if you are a young person who's been unemployed

:23:29.:23:32.

for a year, you will have to take a job absolutely have to take a job,

:23:33.:23:36.

and if you have been unemployed as somebody over 25, there'll be a

:23:37.:23:39.

compulsory thing after two years of unemployment. So if you have been on

:23:40.:23:44.

welfare two years? So the main issue about the welfare bill actually is

:23:45.:23:48.

people who're in retirement who need support. We have said for the

:23:49.:23:51.

richest pensioners, they shouldn't have to pay their winter fuel

:23:52.:23:56.

allowance. My point wasn't abouts the sub stance, it's about how you

:23:57.:24:01.

don't reflect public opinion -- substance. The Parliamentary aid

:24:02.:24:05.

said the political backlog of benefits and social security is "not

:24:06.:24:11.

yet one that we have won. Labour must accept that they are not

:24:12.:24:16.

convincing on these matters,". Well, redo have to convince people and

:24:17.:24:20.

explain the policies we have got and the view we take. So, for example,

:24:21.:24:24.

for pensioners, who're well off we are saying they don't need the

:24:25.:24:27.

Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me saying to you and us saying to

:24:28.:24:31.

people in this country, we do think that there should be that

:24:32.:24:36.

tightening. For young people, who've been unemployed, they should be

:24:37.:24:39.

offered jobs but they've got to take them. So yes, we have to make our

:24:40.:24:44.

case. OK. The energy freeze which we showed there, on the speech, as

:24:45.:24:49.

popular. The living wage proseles have been going down well as well.

:24:50.:24:52.

Why is Labour's lead oaf the Conservatives being cut to 6% in the

:24:53.:24:57.

latest polls? Ed Miliband's own personal approval rating's gotten

:24:58.:25:01.

worse. Why is that? I'm not going to disdues ins and outs of weekly

:25:02.:25:05.

opinion polls with you or anybody else because I'm not a political

:25:06.:25:09.

commentator, but let me say to you the facts of what's happened since

:25:10.:25:13.

Ed Miliband's been leader of the Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New

:25:14.:25:21.

Labour councillors, all of those... But you're... All those who've won

:25:22.:25:24.

their seats against the Conservatives or the Liberal

:25:25.:25:26.

Democrats and no, Andrew you don't always get that in opposition. In

:25:27.:25:31.

1997 after Tony Blair was elected, the Tories carried on losing council

:25:32.:25:37.

seats. Exceptional circumstances and these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in

:25:38.:25:43.

the polls. You were six. The economy grew at an annual rate of 3% in the

:25:44.:25:48.

third quarter just gone. Everybody, private and public forecasters now

:25:49.:25:51.

saying that Britain in this coming year will grow faster than France,

:25:52.:25:56.

Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow faster. Your poll ratings are

:25:57.:26:00.

average when the economy was flatlining, what happens to them

:26:01.:26:03.

when the economy starts to grow Well, I've just said to you, I'm not

:26:04.:26:09.

a political commentator or a pundit on opinion polls. We are putting

:26:10.:26:12.

policies forward and we are holding the Government to account for what

:26:13.:26:15.

they are doing and we think that what they did opt economy pulled the

:26:16.:26:20.

plugs from the economy, delayed the recovery, made it stagnate and we

:26:21.:26:24.

have had three years lost growth. I understand that, but it's now

:26:25.:26:29.

starting to grow. Indeed. If you are no political commentator, let me ask

:26:30.:26:34.

you this, you anticipated the growth, so you switched your line to

:26:35.:26:37.

no growth to this is growth and living standards are rising. If the

:26:38.:26:42.

economy does grow up towards 3% next year, I would suggest that living

:26:43.:26:45.

standards probably will start to rise with that amount of growth

:26:46.:26:48.

What do you do then? We have not switched our line because the

:26:49.:26:52.

economy started to grow. All the way along, we said the economy will

:26:53.:26:56.

recover, but it's been delayed and we have had stagnation for far too

:26:57.:27:00.

long because of the economic policies. We have been absolutely

:27:01.:27:04.

right to understand the concerns people have and recognise that they

:27:05.:27:08.

are struggling with the cost-of-living. Sure. And we are

:27:09.:27:12.

right to do that. What kind of living standards stuck to rise next

:27:13.:27:18.

year? -- start to rise next year. I hope they will. For 40 months of

:27:19.:27:22.

David Cameron's Prime Ministership, for 39 of those, wages have risen

:27:23.:27:27.

slower than prices, so people are worse off. I understand that. You

:27:28.:27:31.

will know that the broader measurement, real household

:27:32.:27:34.

disposable income doesn't show that decline because it takes everything

:27:35.:27:37.

into account. Going around the country, people feel it. They say

:27:38.:27:43.

where's the recovery for me. Living standards now start to rise? If that

:27:44.:27:48.

happens, what is your next line There is a set of arguments about

:27:49.:27:52.

living standards, the National Health Service, about the problems

:27:53.:27:57.

that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I

:27:58.:28:01.

can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other

:28:02.:28:07.

question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed

:28:08.:28:12.

Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks

:28:13.:28:16.

like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will

:28:17.:28:21.

a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign

:28:22.:28:25.

up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter

:28:26.:28:29.

does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the

:28:30.:28:32.

newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My

:28:33.:28:37.

question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do

:28:38.:28:40.

with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the

:28:41.:28:44.

wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The

:28:45.:28:47.

newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,

:28:48.:28:52.

Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are

:28:53.:28:57.

setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it

:28:58.:29:01.

is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,

:29:02.:29:05.

we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is

:29:06.:29:08.

that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really

:29:09.:29:12.

turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll

:29:13.:29:17.

sort things out, leave it to us then they have sorted things out but

:29:18.:29:21.

a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is

:29:22.:29:25.

check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent

:29:26.:29:28.

system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee

:29:29.:29:32.

things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that

:29:33.:29:35.

That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't

:29:36.:29:40.

force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by

:29:41.:29:47.

Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick

:29:48.:29:51.

with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution

:29:52.:29:54.

or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been

:29:55.:29:58.

dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That s 43

:29:59.:30:05.

years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent

:30:06.:30:09.

Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We

:30:10.:30:26.

have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What

:30:27.:30:40.

do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and

:30:41.:30:48.

exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go Go.

:30:49.:31:00.

I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your

:31:01.:31:14.

mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men

:31:15.:31:21.

get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.

:31:22.:31:34.

Dashes-macro know what your age Page three girls, should they stay

:31:35.:31:43.

or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page

:31:44.:31:48.

three of the Sun newspaper every day, there is a woman with no top

:31:49.:31:56.

on. We got rid of that about 40 years ago in Australia. I am not in

:31:57.:32:02.

favour of censorship. It has been long enough. It can stay there. What

:32:03.:32:11.

is wrong with it? We want to encourage children to read the

:32:12.:32:14.

newspapers. I do not want my children to look at that. It is

:32:15.:32:20.

degrading. Do you think we will see the day when they get rid of it

:32:21.:32:29.

Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can turn this into some kind of a

:32:30.:32:42.

shelter. It is tipping it down. I think the council should do

:32:43.:32:48.

something about their car parks Mother nature, the human body. It

:32:49.:32:56.

should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against

:32:57.:33:02.

it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.

:33:03.:33:07.

Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby

:33:08.:33:14.

daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up

:33:15.:33:25.

his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong

:33:26.:33:35.

with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page

:33:36.:33:43.

three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged

:33:44.:33:52.

22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I

:33:53.:33:58.

have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?

:33:59.:34:06.

Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not

:34:07.:34:15.

hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down

:34:16.:34:24.

for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You

:34:25.:34:30.

have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned I

:34:31.:34:35.

have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since

:34:36.:34:41.

the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think

:34:42.:34:53.

there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from

:34:54.:34:59.

outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked

:35:00.:35:01.

yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their

:35:02.:35:06.

knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to

:35:07.:35:11.

be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the

:35:12.:35:21.

circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 980s

:35:22.:35:26.

when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their

:35:27.:35:31.

feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people

:35:32.:35:38.

buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not

:35:39.:35:43.

have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is

:35:44.:35:51.

outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to

:35:52.:35:59.

ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have

:36:00.:36:04.

never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been

:36:05.:36:11.

forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a

:36:12.:36:16.

boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not

:36:17.:36:22.

about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement

:36:23.:36:26.

which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being

:36:27.:36:33.

in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?

:36:34.:36:40.

I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not

:36:41.:36:47.

doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as

:36:48.:36:53.

there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as

:36:54.:36:57.

page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be

:36:58.:37:06.

Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should

:37:07.:37:11.

be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia

:37:12.:37:14.

which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in

:37:15.:37:22.

this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just

:37:23.:37:25.

over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the

:37:26.:37:37.

Thank you and welcome to the part of the programme that is just for us

:37:38.:37:44.

here in the West. Coming up today, has a Somali terrorist organisation

:37:45.:37:47.

recruited members from the West In this propaganda video, Al`Shabab, a

:37:48.:37:53.

group related to Al`Qaeda, claims to have recruited fighters from

:37:54.:37:56.

Bristol. The police tell us this is untrue but one local councillor

:37:57.:38:03.

still has some concerns. We will be discussing cameras and much more

:38:04.:38:07.

with our guest today, Sophy Gardner from Gloucester and the conservative

:38:08.:38:13.

from Yeovil, Marcus Fysh. But first, across the nation,

:38:14.:38:17.

millions have been reflecting on the sacrifice of service men and women

:38:18.:38:21.

who have given their lives for this country. Remembrance Sunday is away

:38:22.:38:25.

is a poignant today and next year marks the 100th anniversary of the

:38:26.:38:33.

first World War `` First World War. We have been asking local people why

:38:34.:38:37.

they think poppies are still important.

:38:38.:38:43.

Today, I chose to wear one because I thought I would make some small

:38:44.:38:49.

contribution to soldiers whom a lot of effort in Afghanistan and I

:38:50.:38:53.

wanted to give some formal recognition to them.

:38:54.:39:02.

I might not support war but I do support the decent treatment of

:39:03.:39:05.

those who have fought for their country, whether I think their cause

:39:06.:39:12.

is right or wrong. I'm supporting a really good cause and I think

:39:13.:39:17.

everyone should remember. It is what we do. It is a matter of respect for

:39:18.:39:29.

people and the sacrifices they make for their country. And joining me

:39:30.:39:37.

now is the belch MP Doctor Andrew Merson, who is in charge of the

:39:38.:39:43.

celebrations for the members of the 100th anniversary of the First World

:39:44.:39:47.

War. Why are we marking the beginning of the war rather than its

:39:48.:39:51.

end? The first thing to say that this is a commemoration, it is in no

:39:52.:39:58.

way a celebration. And during this four`year period, we will be doing

:39:59.:40:01.

everything we can to encourage people to thing about the causes,

:40:02.:40:04.

conduct and consequences of this extraordinary moment in our history

:40:05.:40:09.

which, whether we realise it on a day`to`day basis or not, really does

:40:10.:40:14.

influence everything that relates to our modern world. It is incredibly

:40:15.:40:21.

important. It is right we do what we can to explore it in all of its

:40:22.:40:26.

manifestations and that is what the centenary will be about. Why the

:40:27.:40:30.

beginning and not the end? It is an integral part of the whole story and

:40:31.:40:34.

there is international agreement that this event is so huge that we

:40:35.:40:41.

have to explore it in its entirety. But the Prime Minister once, in his

:40:42.:40:44.

words, a commemoration that like the diamond to believe says something

:40:45.:40:51.

about who we are as a people. That was a bit of a knees up. This will

:40:52.:40:59.

be very different. It needs to be a commemoration and not a celebration.

:41:00.:41:03.

The Prime Minister is utterly clear about that. This is a commemoration

:41:04.:41:09.

and its tone will be profoundly different. So it is not cheering

:41:10.:41:33.

crowds in the mouth Mall? I think foremost amongst those

:41:34.:41:35.

countries are the Germans, of course. The Germans also want the

:41:36.:41:41.

European Union recognised for bringing Europe together, to make

:41:42.:41:44.

sure another conflict like that would be unthinkable. Do you go

:41:45.:41:48.

along with that? A celebration of Europe? I think different countries

:41:49.:41:53.

will approach this in a different way and they will have their own

:41:54.:41:59.

stories and narratives. I don't think the European `` the part that

:42:00.:42:04.

the European Union has played in the past decade will be a prominent part

:42:05.:42:07.

of our commemoration but of course it is open to countries like Germany

:42:08.:42:12.

and others to approach this in a way that they think best fits their

:42:13.:42:19.

narrative. Was it a just war? That is a vexed question. I hope it will

:42:20.:42:23.

be debated over the four`year period. What I'm clear about is that

:42:24.:42:27.

if IM in the position of administering the government that

:42:28.:42:36.

took the country to war at the time, I would have made the same decision

:42:37.:42:40.

based on the information available to me. We debated some of those

:42:41.:42:44.

issues and I think there was a lot of consensus found. While I have you

:42:45.:42:48.

here, is it right that 16 year roles should be allowed to join the Army?

:42:49.:42:53.

The Army is breaking on training young people and when they join the

:42:54.:42:57.

Army, they go through an extensive period of training and cannot enter

:42:58.:43:01.

a combat role until they achieve their majority, so that has been the

:43:02.:43:06.

case for a while and I think most people would accept that as being

:43:07.:43:10.

reasonable. Thank you for joining us. We will be seeing a lot of you

:43:11.:43:16.

over the next 12 months. Let us turn to our guests. Sophy,

:43:17.:43:21.

you were a Wing Commander. Is the government getting the tone of these

:43:22.:43:29.

events right? It is hard to say there is a lot to come out. The most

:43:30.:43:33.

important thing that it is solemnly commemorated. I was at the Cenotaph

:43:34.:43:39.

in 2008 when it was the 90th anniversary of the end of the first

:43:40.:43:44.

World War with the three last surviving soldiers of the First

:43:45.:43:49.

World War. Getting the tone right is what we are seeking to achieve

:43:50.:43:54.

rather than anything veering towards the Diamond Jubilee. It is important

:43:55.:43:56.

we are working with the German government on this. We built on the

:43:57.:43:59.

bomber command Memorial with them and so there is an inscription to

:44:00.:44:05.

all people who died. Will they come a time when we actually draw a line

:44:06.:44:08.

under the First World War and say this is now ancient history? I

:44:09.:44:14.

really don't because I think it is 16 the important that we do remember

:44:15.:44:23.

`` extremely important and that we do remember that it was a war that

:44:24.:44:29.

was completely different in character and nature than to

:44:30.:44:32.

anything we had seen before and the scale of the losses was so great

:44:33.:44:39.

that it truly traumatised both nations in very different ways.

:44:40.:44:47.

Thank you. We have to move on. Back in 1914, we knew who the enemy was.

:44:48.:44:51.

Today, it is not so clear. Here in the West, police have been examining

:44:52.:44:56.

a video released by the terrorist group Al`Shabab who have linked to

:44:57.:45:00.

Al`Qaeda. It follows claims they recruited members for Bristol for

:45:01.:45:06.

the local holy war. Al`Shabab is a terrorist

:45:07.:45:11.

organisation with links to Al`Qaeda. In this propaganda video, probably

:45:12.:45:14.

filmed in Somalia, where the group originates, their messages aimed at

:45:15.:45:19.

Britain. We are accompanied by brothers from London, Liverpool

:45:20.:45:26.

Bristol and Cardiff. The group are believed to be responsible for the

:45:27.:45:29.

deaths of at least 67 people, some of whom were British, when militants

:45:30.:45:34.

stormed this night robe each shopping centre on the 21st of

:45:35.:45:41.

September. `` Nairobi. Al`Shabab claims they have recruited members

:45:42.:45:44.

from the streets of Bristol. Nevertheless, this propaganda video

:45:45.:45:52.

has raised concerns in the community. This woman is the first

:45:53.:46:00.

Somali born councillor in Britain. She worked closely with the growing

:46:01.:46:07.

community. There are now thought to be over 20,000 Somalis living in the

:46:08.:46:11.

city. As austerity continues to bite and communities and families are

:46:12.:46:17.

poorer, young men in particular are disenfranchised and shut up from

:46:18.:46:21.

society. What are the chances of them being radicalised? What are the

:46:22.:46:28.

chances of someone with negative intentions coming along and

:46:29.:46:30.

providing them with an outlet for that? Officers from Avon and

:46:31.:46:36.

Somerset have examined the video. Basic amenity teams work closely

:46:37.:46:40.

with local mosques and community leaders in the city. They were

:46:41.:46:43.

tipped off by the community about Andrew Ibrahim, a young Muslim

:46:44.:46:48.

convert, convicted of planning a terrorist bomb attack in Bristol in

:46:49.:46:55.

2009. We are aware of the video and we know that Bristol was mentioned

:46:56.:47:00.

among lots of other cities in Britain. Whilst we are never

:47:01.:47:04.

complacent, we are relaxed about the situation in Bristol. We have

:47:05.:47:08.

excellent committee relations with the communities in Bristol and we

:47:09.:47:13.

have not done any tension from the video and we are confident that we

:47:14.:47:18.

never would. Working with the community is an ethos shed at the

:47:19.:47:21.

school, where many of the local Somali children are pupils. Here we

:47:22.:47:29.

have 60 countries of origin and some of them are from very `` very Ramon

:47:30.:47:39.

parts of Africa. We don't allow any separation or any sense of exclusion

:47:40.:47:46.

to come in, to allow separation to creep in. We spent a lot of money on

:47:47.:47:56.

blazers so they feel part of the community. It is a modern cancer,

:47:57.:48:02.

poverty, and so we have adapted to tackle that. There are students who

:48:03.:48:08.

claim for free school meals and that has increased in the last four

:48:09.:48:14.

years. With concerns about children falling into poverty, there are

:48:15.:48:18.

concerns they could become radicalised. There is no evidence

:48:19.:48:23.

that people have fallen for this Al`Shabab propaganda but the British

:48:24.:48:27.

authorities are keeping a close aye on things.

:48:28.:48:34.

Letters pick up on that. Is there a concern that poverty could be a

:48:35.:48:38.

driving force for radicalisation? I think there is or is a risk and we

:48:39.:48:43.

as a society need to make sure that nobody forced through the cracks and

:48:44.:48:47.

that we notice when somebody is honourable to radicalisation of any

:48:48.:48:52.

kind. I think it is very important that we do have the strong

:48:53.:48:58.

leadership in the country and the resources for our security forces

:48:59.:49:01.

for our police to do their job and I think they have those tools at the

:49:02.:49:06.

moment. We also need to make sure that all of our social services are

:49:07.:49:12.

looking at these things as well Are we winning the ideological war? The

:49:13.:49:20.

ideological war in the sense... I don't think there is an ideological

:49:21.:49:25.

war in the sense that terrorism for most people is just utterly wrong

:49:26.:49:32.

and file on any side and so I am unhappy with the term war on terror.

:49:33.:49:42.

I was in America on the day of 11 because I conceded originally were

:49:43.:49:45.

heading and I didn't like it. Now, they are doing great work on the

:49:46.:49:51.

local level in Bristol and she is the right person to be doing that

:49:52.:49:55.

work. Around the country, there is good work being done on

:49:56.:50:00.

radicalisation and online activity. We are heading in the right

:50:01.:50:05.

direction. Some people would think why did we allow Sony people to come

:50:06.:50:09.

to this country who do not share our values? `` so many people. It is

:50:10.:50:18.

vital that we do not let immigration cloud our view on criminals. That is

:50:19.:50:24.

not the same as all people who are immigrants or emigrants out of this

:50:25.:50:30.

country. We should be very careful, it is not the same as being as them.

:50:31.:50:34.

My set mother is a muslin. I have no problem with that. `` my stepmother

:50:35.:50:45.

is a Muslim. The police are monitoring many conversations

:50:46.:50:50.

online. Is that justified? One of the reasons we are able to go about

:50:51.:50:53.

our daily lives in the way we have done for many decades in a freeway

:50:54.:50:58.

in this country is because we have is we have a strong outer ring, so

:50:59.:51:04.

we have a capable militarily, we have capable security services. Is

:51:05.:51:08.

that worth the price of having people snooping? I think it is. It

:51:09.:51:14.

is a very bottom part about information set. We need to be

:51:15.:51:22.

careful before we allow our techniques to become known to the

:51:23.:51:28.

people who would hurt us and I think that is a bit of a risk. We have to

:51:29.:51:31.

leave it there because we need to talk about money. With council is

:51:32.:51:36.

working on their budgets, one area now being lined up for cuts is

:51:37.:51:41.

children centres. Swindon is slicing hundreds of thousands from what it

:51:42.:51:46.

spends about Somerset proposes changes to dozens of centres. The

:51:47.:51:49.

first big flash point could come on Wednesday in Bath, over a planned ?2

:51:50.:51:54.

million cut. It is stories time at Parkside is

:51:55.:52:04.

children centre. `` Parkside Children's Centre. Many feel that

:52:05.:52:10.

the wolf is at the door for these centres. They want to cut their

:52:11.:52:16.

funding by the 40%. It has sparked a big risk campaign by their

:52:17.:52:21.

opponents. These children's centres provide a huge range of activities

:52:22.:52:29.

that provide universal services for parents and parents who are in

:52:30.:52:32.

particular need. If there is a 2.3 million cut, 50% of most of the

:52:33.:52:38.

services will go because 50% of staff will be cut. It has alarmed

:52:39.:52:47.

Betty Williams, she got help after suffering postnatal depression. To

:52:48.:52:51.

get that support and even tips to deal with things going on in my

:52:52.:53:01.

life... So impressed was sheep by the Russ Doctor consider that she ``

:53:02.:53:13.

Radstock to centre. If it was cut, it would be devastating to some

:53:14.:53:18.

parents. The council hope that all will stay open with help from

:53:19.:53:26.

volunteers and other organisations. their spending will be targeted at

:53:27.:53:29.

the most needy. There are other authorities that are cutting

:53:30.:53:33.

children's centres and what we are seeking to do is to retain all of

:53:34.:53:41.

our centres and make them be as effective and efficient as possible.

:53:42.:53:45.

The councils will face protests when they make their controversial

:53:46.:53:48.

decision. It is not just down to who is decided by the Cabinet. Enough

:53:49.:53:57.

people signed a petition that it will be debated at a council

:53:58.:54:02.

meeting. The future of these controversial changes is far from

:54:03.:54:08.

certain. Back in Radstock, Betty Williams is enjoying being a parent.

:54:09.:54:11.

She was to make sure others get the same help. I know what it was like

:54:12.:54:17.

before we had the centres, so we don't want that for them because

:54:18.:54:22.

that is quite a scary prospect. And I know that if these cuts come

:54:23.:54:25.

through, it will be targeted but I don't think that is good enough

:54:26.:54:31.

Every child should get the support. For many councils, the easy cuts

:54:32.:54:35.

have been made. Now, the next generation will start to feel the

:54:36.:54:42.

effects of the age of austerities Dine Romero joins us in the studio.

:54:43.:54:50.

We saw you in the film for sub why are you making this cut? Overall,

:54:51.:54:56.

although we are quite wealthy, we are faced with cuts that are

:54:57.:55:02.

unprecedented since World War II. We have had to take a ?30 million cut

:55:03.:55:07.

over the next two years in order to balance our books. We'd have thought

:55:08.:55:12.

that children's services would have been towards the bottom of the list

:55:13.:55:19.

will stop. We asked that the last Budget meeting for our scrutiny

:55:20.:55:25.

panel to go away and look at what services were needed and what was

:55:26.:55:30.

vital for the well`being of our young people and our families within

:55:31.:55:35.

a community. And these are not vital? They are vital. We are not

:55:36.:55:42.

closing any of the centres. But you have reduced their Budget by 40 ? We

:55:43.:55:50.

have reduced our Budget but we are looking at trying to create a new

:55:51.:55:52.

model that we will be working with our partners and volunteer groups in

:55:53.:55:55.

order to deliver these vital services. Let us bring in our other

:55:56.:56:05.

guests. Are these justified? Cuts to children's services are always

:56:06.:56:08.

worrying. It is happening across the country. In Swindon, there have been

:56:09.:56:16.

a lot of campaigns will stop the early years are vital. We are

:56:17.:56:25.

looking at local government and a tax on those services for young

:56:26.:56:29.

people. So Labour councillors would not cut? We cannot say what we would

:56:30.:56:35.

do in future but just to say we have got a costed proposal to improve

:56:36.:56:40.

hours of childcare. Let us talk about the politics of it. The Lib

:56:41.:56:46.

Dems want to do it in Bath and the Tories are opposing it? It is

:56:47.:56:54.

Labour. The Tories looked at what could be done without children

:56:55.:56:58.

services. So they are not opposing it? They have worked with us on it.

:56:59.:57:06.

They have asked for a rethink, as I understand. What were doing in

:57:07.:57:13.

Somerset is coming up with ways of producing a new model for delivering

:57:14.:57:17.

children centres. So you have asked for a rethink in some areas but in

:57:18.:57:26.

Somerset you want a cut? We will invest more money in front line

:57:27.:57:29.

services, we will cut back on management and administration costs

:57:30.:57:32.

which Ashley take up half of our Budget there. This is money we have

:57:33.:57:41.

to save but we need to make our services more flexible. How do you

:57:42.:57:46.

make services better with less money? You have to be creative, you

:57:47.:57:52.

have to look at who else is out there that has local knowledge, who

:57:53.:57:56.

else can help you in delivering the services. You are looking at

:57:57.:58:02.

volunteer groups, charities, all sorts of other partners and one of

:58:03.:58:06.

the big benefits from other partners is they can actually drawn funds

:58:07.:58:10.

that as a council we are not able to do. In a word, will you climb down

:58:11.:58:17.

all this go ahead? At the moment, it is a proposal, a plan, we need to

:58:18.:58:22.

look at it and see how it can be delivered. That will form the

:58:23.:58:29.

discussion on Wednesday and the overall decision does not happen

:58:30.:58:33.

until February, at our next Budget. Thank you for coming in. Time for

:58:34.:58:40.

our round`up in six T seconds. `` 60 seconds.

:58:41.:58:48.

Three people died on to accidents on the outskirts of Gloucester. The

:58:49.:58:50.

leader of Gloucestershire County Council has written to the Transport

:58:51.:58:53.

Secretary demanding action. We need to stop this being not only a

:58:54.:58:57.

bottleneck but also a really dangerous stretch of road.

:58:58.:59:01.

Firefighters across the West went on strike again as part of a national

:59:02.:59:04.

row over changes to pensions. The government is playing to increase

:59:05.:59:10.

the retirement age from 55 to 6 . The chief Gaza border they then and

:59:11.:59:14.

Somerset police says that keenly Felix need to be rebuilt following

:59:15.:59:19.

the death of one man. They described his murder in Bristol as an horrific

:59:20.:59:26.

incident. The IPCC are investigating the police's investigation.

:59:27.:59:31.

A court has ruled that Somerset cows or acted illegally it cut youth

:59:32.:59:34.

services. Judges at the Court of Appeal said the council failed to

:59:35.:59:39.

insult young people adequately and when they voted through the cuts

:59:40.:59:45.

last year. That was the week just gone. Let us

:59:46.:59:49.

pick up quickly on the judicial reviews that seem to be going into

:59:50.:59:53.

anything. Are there too many now? There are a lot of them but it is

:59:54.:59:57.

important that the principle of being able to account for the

:59:58.:00:00.

sessions and check they are legal issues the vital. The Prime Minister

:00:01.:00:05.

said they were a growing industry, didn't he? It is important they are

:00:06.:00:10.

based on something real and I think the changes that the prime and is

:00:11.:00:15.

the once I just to limit some of the timescales in it. It is important, I

:00:16.:00:21.

agree. That is all we have time for. Thank you to Sophy Gardner and

:00:22.:00:25.

Marcus Fysh for joining us. We are back next week. See you then, now

:00:26.:00:27.

more equipment so they can see cyclists. Back to you, Andrew.

:00:28.:00:39.

We learned this week that no more warships will be built at

:00:40.:00:43.

Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose

:00:44.:00:47.

and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the

:00:48.:00:50.

Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the

:00:51.:00:55.

United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign

:00:56.:01:04.

for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to

:01:05.:01:08.

doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English

:01:09.:01:17.

Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to

:01:18.:01:21.

stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best

:01:22.:01:27.

outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?

:01:28.:01:31.

We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is

:01:32.:01:35.

an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the

:01:36.:01:41.

people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for

:01:42.:01:46.

independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be

:01:47.:01:52.

dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without

:01:53.:02:00.

true representation. The union continues but it continues without

:02:01.:02:05.

Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional

:02:06.:02:09.

position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional

:02:10.:02:14.

position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We

:02:15.:02:20.

want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained

:02:21.:02:26.

or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.

:02:27.:02:30.

Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If

:02:31.:02:35.

that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,

:02:36.:02:44.

it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the

:02:45.:02:48.

union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by

:02:49.:02:52.

England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,

:02:53.:02:58.

wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny

:02:59.:03:05.

list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to

:03:06.:03:09.

the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very

:03:10.:03:14.

concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched

:03:15.:03:19.

British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable

:03:20.:03:23.

situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with

:03:24.:03:29.

Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about

:03:30.:03:31.

trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile

:03:32.:03:36.

situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation

:03:37.:03:41.

separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and

:03:42.:03:46.

Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I

:03:47.:03:52.

want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were

:03:53.:03:58.

sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to

:03:59.:04:05.

remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.

:04:06.:04:14.

Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become

:04:15.:04:20.

a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England

:04:21.:04:24.

to have their representation - representation that looks at

:04:25.:04:29.

policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern

:04:30.:04:32.

Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way

:04:33.:04:37.

forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system

:04:38.:04:48.

might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you

:04:49.:04:57.

want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is

:04:58.:05:03.

implement the process is to get their representation for England. I

:05:04.:05:08.

would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way

:05:09.:05:14.

to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.

:05:15.:05:19.

Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the

:05:20.:05:21.

British government is trying desperately to save the union by

:05:22.:05:27.

giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this

:05:28.:05:33.

business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been

:05:34.:05:37.

pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the

:05:38.:05:41.

union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a

:05:42.:05:47.

disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a

:05:48.:05:51.

minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow

:05:52.:05:55.

its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to

:05:56.:05:59.

admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be

:06:00.:06:04.

dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a

:06:05.:06:09.

Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a

:06:10.:06:14.

killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in

:06:15.:06:19.

this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.

:06:20.:06:25.

And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial

:06:26.:06:30.

area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has

:06:31.:06:34.

backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in

:06:35.:06:38.

Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English

:06:39.:06:42.

nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist

:06:43.:06:47.

in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed

:06:48.:06:51.

to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to

:06:52.:06:55.

win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to

:06:56.:07:01.

imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more

:07:02.:07:09.

autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David

:07:10.:07:14.

Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any

:07:15.:07:19.

vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,

:07:20.:07:25.

you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is

:07:26.:07:29.

economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the

:07:30.:07:33.

United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this

:07:34.:07:36.

government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of

:07:37.:07:40.

being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case

:07:41.:07:45.

of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave

:07:46.:07:51.

That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you

:07:52.:07:55.

like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you

:07:56.:07:59.

happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last

:08:00.:08:02.

week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He

:08:03.:08:05.

said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,

:08:06.:08:08.

what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll

:08:09.:08:12.

hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I

:08:13.:08:21.

have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?

:08:22.:08:26.

Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used

:08:27.:08:33.

drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years

:08:34.:08:39.

ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few

:08:40.:08:46.

times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I

:08:47.:08:52.

tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around

:08:53.:09:17.

you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that

:09:18.:09:24.

get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession

:09:25.:09:30.

by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once

:09:31.:09:37.

smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that

:09:38.:09:42.

she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about

:09:43.:09:46.

them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not

:09:47.:09:52.

deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant

:09:53.:10:04.

to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat

:10:05.:10:09.

his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a

:10:10.:10:14.

generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went

:10:15.:10:17.

through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables

:10:18.:10:21.

and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely

:10:22.:10:28.

honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy

:10:29.:10:36.

is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was

:10:37.:10:40.

saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet

:10:41.:10:45.

Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,

:10:46.:10:50.

you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you

:10:51.:10:57.

cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing

:10:58.:11:00.

and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is

:11:01.:11:04.

enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair

:11:05.:11:10.

or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be

:11:11.:11:15.

mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There

:11:16.:11:19.

was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He

:11:20.:11:26.

was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the

:11:27.:11:33.

line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.

:11:34.:11:38.

Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will

:11:39.:11:41.

surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes

:11:42.:11:46.

on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those

:11:47.:11:51.

who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.

:11:52.:11:55.

The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,

:11:56.:12:03.

early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages

:12:04.:12:08.

will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not

:12:09.:12:13.

be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this

:12:14.:12:26.

trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very

:12:27.:12:34.

careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a

:12:35.:12:38.

certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled

:12:39.:12:42.

before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory

:12:43.:12:47.

strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement

:12:48.:12:51.

or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.

:12:52.:13:00.

-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions

:13:01.:13:05.

about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.

:13:06.:13:12.

They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be

:13:13.:13:15.

surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it

:13:16.:13:20.

is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be

:13:21.:13:26.

cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two

:13:27.:13:29.

at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.

:13:30.:13:33.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:34.:13:43.

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