10/11/2013 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news. With deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman, UKIP leader Nigel Farage, and a look at calls to remove the Sun's Page 3.

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on


the war path over pay day loans your energy bill and what he calls


the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls


don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's


Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage


won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be


talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page


three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with


some balls. Stay. It is good In the West ` as we remember the


fallen, who are today's enemies One terrorist group has issued a video


people from Bristol to fight a holy people from Bristol to fight a holy


row over the super sewer rumbles on. And with me, fresh from their


success at yesterday's Star Wars auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan


Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick


Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in


Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a


breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go


far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has


been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at


a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this


to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in


the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying


again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We


will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind


solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it


will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with


Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are


looking the case for the kind of deal we are


interests of the whole world, including


interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic


agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will


threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the


future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems


future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the


Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took


the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough


line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon I


am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the


talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on


Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.


Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge


saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this


year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The


next round of talks will be at official level. The place to watch


will be Israel. The language which has been coming out of there is


still incredibly angry, incredibly defensive. They do not want a deal


at all. Presumably John Kerry has to go away and tried to get Israel to


be quiet about it, even if they cannot be happy about it. They


cannot agree to a deal which allows the Iraq reactor with plutonium


heavy water. You do not need that with a peaceful nuclear power


programme will stop that is why the Israelis are so nervous. If there is


an international deal, Israel could still bomb that but it would be


impossible. The French tactics are interesting. It says the French


blocked it in part because they are trying to carry favour with Israel


but also the Gulf Arab states, who are really nervous about and


Iranians nuclear capability. Who is that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a


story saying that Pakistan is prepared to provide them with


nuclear weapons. You are right about Saudi Arabia. They are much more


against this deal than Israel. Who is Herman van Rompuy's favourite


MEP? It is probably not Nigel Farage. He plummeted to the bottom


of the EU president's Christmas card list after comparing him to a bank


clerk with the charisma of a damp rag. And he's been at it again this


week. Have a look. Today is November the 5th, a big celebration festival


day in England. That was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament


with dynamite and destroy the Constitution. You have taken the


Dahl, technocratic approach to all of these things. What you and your


colleagues save time and again you talk about initiatives and what you


are going to do about unemployment. The reality is nothing in this union


is getting better. The accounts have not been signed off for 18 years. I


am now told it is 19 and you are doing your best to tone down any


criticism. Whatever growth figures you may have, they are anaemic.


Youth unemployment in the Mediterranean is over 50% in several


states. You will notice there is a rise in opposition dashed real


opposition. Much of it ugly opposition, not stuff that I would


want to link hands with. And Nigel Farage joins me now. Let me put to


you what the editor of the Sun had to say. He says, UKIP will peak at


the European election and then it will begin to get marginalised as we


get closer to 2015 because there is now that clear blue water between


Labour and the Tories. What do you say to that? There may be layered


blue water on energy pricing but on Eastern Europe, there is no


difference at all. When Ed Miliband offers the referendum to match


Cameron, even that argument on Europe will be gone. The one thing


that will keep UKIP strong, heading towards 2015, is if people think in


some constituencies we can win. I cannot sit here right now and say


that will be the case. If we get over the hurdle of the European


elections clearly, I think there will be grounds to say that UKIP can


win seats in Westminster. You are going to run? Without a shadow of a


doubt. I do not know which constituency. The welcome I got in


Edinburgh was not that friendly Edinburgh is not everything in


Scotland. I think we have a realistic chance of winning those


elections. If we do that, we will have the momentum behind us. You


might be the biggest party after the May elections. The National front is


likely to do very well in France as well. They have won the crucial


by-election in the South of France. Have you talked about joining full


season in Parliament? The leader has tried to take the movement into a


different direction than her father. The man she beat, to become leader,


actually attended the BNP conference. The problem she has with


her party and we have with her party is that anti-Semitism is too deep


and we will not be doing a deal with the French national government. You


can guarantee you will not be joining such groups. I can guarantee


that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's accept that the pro-Europeans


exaggerate the loss of jobs that would follow the departure of


Britain from the UK. Is there no risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk


whatsoever. There is no risk at all. There have been some weak and lazy


arguments put around about this We will go on doing business - go on


doing trade with Europe. We will have increased opportunities to do


trade deals with the rest of the world and they will create jobs The


head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi and CBI many other voices in British


business, when they all expressed concern about the potential loss of


jobs and incoming investment, we should just ignore them. With


Nissan, the BBC News is making this a huge story. The boss did not say


what was reported. He said there was a potential danger to his future


investment. They have already made the investments. They have built the


plant in Sunderland, which they say is operating well. We should be


careful of what bosses of big businesses say. This man said they


may have two leaves Sunderland if we did not join the euro. I do not take


that seriously. As for the CBI, they wanted us to join the euro and now


they do not. Even within the CBI, there is a significant minority


saying, we do not agree with what the CBI director-general is saying.


The former boss of the organisation is saying we need a referendum and


we need a referendum soon. It depends on the renegotiation. There


is not the uniformity. What we are beginning to see in the world, is,


manufacturing and small businesses are a lot more voices saying, the


costs of membership outweigh any potential benefit. If you look at


the polls, if Mr Cameron does repatriate some powers and he joins


with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales,


most of business, all of the unions to say we should stay in, you are


going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75, the circumstances were exactly the


same. Mr Wilson promised a renegotiation and he got very


little. The establishment gathered around him and they voted for us to


stay in. I do not think that will happen now. The scales have fallen.


We do not want to be governed by Herman Van Rompuy and these people.


These people are Eurosceptic but they do not seem to feel strongly


enough about it that they are going to defy all the major parties they


vote for, companies that employ them, unions they are members of. I


am absolutely confident there will be a lot voices in business saying,


we need to take this opportunity to break free, give ourselves a chance


of a low regulation lowball trader. -- global trade. In 1970 53 small


publications said to vote yes. I am not contemplating losing. The most


important thing is to get the referendum. If UKIP is not strong,


there will not be a referendum. Earlier in the year, your party


issued a leaflet about the remaining sample parents being able to come to


this country. The EU will allow 29 million Bulgarians and remaining is


to come to the UK. That is technically correct but we both know


that is not the case. It is an open door to these people. Why take the


risk? By make out there are 29 million people? I stand by that


verdict. It is an open door. 29 million are not going to come. They


can if they want. Also 29 million people from France can come. After


these countries have joined, we will do another leaflet saying that Mr


Cameron wants to open the door to 70 million people from Turkey. That is


scaremongering. I would not say that. We have a million young


British workers between 16 and 4 without work. A lot of them want


work and we do not need another massive oversupply in the unskilled


labour market. Why did you have such a bad time on question Time this


week? The folk that did not buy your anti-immigration stick. Do you think


that group of people in the room was representative of the voters of


Boston? What would make you think it was unrepresentative? When the


county council elections took place this year in Boston, of the seven


seats, UKIP won five and almost won the other two. I don't think that


audience reflected that, but that doesn't matter. How an audience is


put together, how a panel is put together, on one programme, it


doesn't mean much at all. It shows that your anti-immigrant measure


doesn't fly as easily as you hoped it would? The opinion polls which


will be launched on Monday that we are conducting and nearing


completion, they show two things. Firstly, an astonishing number of


people who think it's irresponsible and wrong to open the doer to


Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and crucially, a number of people whose


vote in the European elections and subsequent general elections may be


determined by the immigration issues. This does matter. It would


be the perfect run group the European elections in May for you if


a lot of Bulgarians and remainians flooded in. You would like that to


happen? I think it will happen. Whether I like it or not, it will


happen. You think it will be good for you, it will stir things up If


you say to people in poor countries, you can come here, get a job, have a


safety net of a benefits system claim child allowance for your kids


in Bucharest, people will come You are ready with the arguments


already? You will be disappointed if only ten turn up? Whether lots come


or not we should. Taking the risk and yes, we are going to make it a


major issue in the European election. Let's leave it there.


Thank you very much, Nigel Farage. The summer of 2013 was not good for


Ed Miliband, with questions over his leadership, low ratings and


complaints about no policies. He bounced back with a vengeance at the


Labour Conference in September, delivering a speech which this week


won the spectator political speech of the year aword. In that speech he


focussed on the cost-of-living and promised a temporary freeze on


energy prices. Even said this. The next election isn't just going to be


about policy. It's going to be about how we lead and the character we


show. I've got a message for the Tories today. If they want to have a


debate, about leadership and character, be my guest And if you


want to know the difference between me and David Cameron, here is an


easy way to remember it. When it was Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the


side of Murdoch. When it was the tobacco lobby versus the cancer


charities, he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When the millionaires


wanted a tax cut as people pay the bedroom tax, he took the side of the


millionaires. A come to think of it, here is an easier way to remember


it. David Cameron was a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom


tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who repeals the bedroom tax There we go,


that will go down with the party faithful on Tuesday. There will be a


debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman,


joints me now. Let's begin with the bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy.


Nearly 11% of people who've come off Housing Benefits all together after


their spare room subsidy was stopped, isn't that proof that


reform was necessary? No. I think that the whole way that the bet room


tax has been attempted to be justified is completely wrong. What


it's said is that it will actually help take people off the waiting


lists by putting them into homes that have been vacated by people


who've downsized by being incentivised by the bedroom tax so


basically if you are a council tenant or Housing Association tenant


in a property with spare bedrooms, then because the penalty is imposed,


you will move to a smaller property. That is the justification for it.


But actually, something like 96 of the people who're going to be hit by


the bedroom tax, there isn't a smaller property for them to move


into. I understand that. Therefore they are, like the people in my


constituency, if they have got one spare bedroom, they are hit by 700


a year extra to pay and that is completely unfair As a consequence


of people losing the subsidy for their spare room, they have decided


to go out and get work and not depend on Housing Benefit at all?


11% of them. What's wrong with that? Well, they are going to review the


way 2 the bedroom tax is working. What is wrong with that? But that's


not working. That's the result of Freedom of Information, 141 councils


provided the figures, 25,000 who've come off benefits, of the 233,0 0


affected, it's about 11%. These people were clearly able to get a


job was having the Housing Benefit in the first place? But of course


the people who're on the benefits who're not in work are always


looking for work and many of them will find work which is a good


thing, but for those who don't find work, or who find work where it s


low-paid and need help with their rent, it's wrong to penalise them on


the basis of the fact that their family might have grown up and moved


away and so you have either got to move out of your home, away from


your family and your neighbourhood, or you've got to stay where you are


and, despite the fact that you are low-paid or unemployed, you have got


to find an extra ?700 a year because of your rent. So it's very unfair


The Government that was commissioning independent research


on the impact of this work change and welfare policy, particularly on


the impact on the most vulnerable, some of which you have been talking


about there, shouldn't they have waited until you have got the


independent research, that independent investigation before


determining your policy? No. In fact, the Government should have


waited until they'd have done their independent research before they


bought into effect something and imposed it on people in a way which


is really unfair. They could have known. Why didn't you wait? What


they could have done is, they could have asked councils, are people


going to be able to Manifest into smaller homes if we impose the


bedroom tax and the answer from councils and Housing Associations


would have been no, they can't move into smaller homes because which


haven't got them there. They should have done the evaluation before they


introduced the policy. We are absolutely clear and you can see the


evidence, people are falling into rent arrears. Many people, it's a


terrifying thing to find that you can't pay your rent, and some of the


people go to payday loan companies to get loans to pay their rent. It


is very, very unfair. The justification for it, which is


people will move, is completely bogus. There aren't places for them


to go. On the wider issue of welfare reform, a call for the TUC showed


that voters support the Government's welfare reforms, including a


majority of Labour voters. Why are you so out of touch on welfare


issues, even with your own supporters? Nobody wants to see


people who could be in a job actually living at the taxpayers'


expense. That's why we have said that we'll introduce a compulsory


jobs guarantee, so that if you are a young person who's been unemployed


for a year, you will have to take a job absolutely have to take a job,


and if you have been unemployed as somebody over 25, there'll be a


compulsory thing after two years of unemployment. So if you have been on


welfare two years? So the main issue about the welfare bill actually is


people who're in retirement who need support. We have said for the


richest pensioners, they shouldn't have to pay their winter fuel


allowance. My point wasn't abouts the sub stance, it's about how you


don't reflect public opinion -- substance. The Parliamentary aid


said the political backlog of benefits and social security is "not


yet one that we have won. Labour must accept that they are not


convincing on these matters,". Well, redo have to convince people and


explain the policies we have got and the view we take. So, for example,


for pensioners, who're well off we are saying they don't need the


Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me saying to you and us saying to


people in this country, we do think that there should be that


tightening. For young people, who've been unemployed, they should be


offered jobs but they've got to take them. So yes, we have to make our


case. OK. The energy freeze which we showed there, on the speech, as


popular. The living wage proseles have been going down well as well.


Why is Labour's lead oaf the Conservatives being cut to 6% in the


latest polls? Ed Miliband's own personal approval rating's gotten


worse. Why is that? I'm not going to disdues ins and outs of weekly


opinion polls with you or anybody else because I'm not a political


commentator, but let me say to you the facts of what's happened since


Ed Miliband's been leader of the Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New


Labour councillors, all of those... But you're... All those who've won


their seats against the Conservatives or the Liberal


Democrats and no, Andrew you don't always get that in opposition. In


1997 after Tony Blair was elected, the Tories carried on losing council


seats. Exceptional circumstances and these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in


the polls. You were six. The economy grew at an annual rate of 3% in the


third quarter just gone. Everybody, private and public forecasters now


saying that Britain in this coming year will grow faster than France,


Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow faster. Your poll ratings are


average when the economy was flatlining, what happens to them


when the economy starts to grow Well, I've just said to you, I'm not


a political commentator or a pundit on opinion polls. We are putting


policies forward and we are holding the Government to account for what


they are doing and we think that what they did opt economy pulled the


plugs from the economy, delayed the recovery, made it stagnate and we


have had three years lost growth. I understand that, but it's now


starting to grow. Indeed. If you are no political commentator, let me ask


you this, you anticipated the growth, so you switched your line to


no growth to this is growth and living standards are rising. If the


economy does grow up towards 3% next year, I would suggest that living


standards probably will start to rise with that amount of growth


What do you do then? We have not switched our line because the


economy started to grow. All the way along, we said the economy will


recover, but it's been delayed and we have had stagnation for far too


long because of the economic policies. We have been absolutely


right to understand the concerns people have and recognise that they


are struggling with the cost-of-living. Sure. And we are


right to do that. What kind of living standards stuck to rise next


year? -- start to rise next year. I hope they will. For 40 months of


David Cameron's Prime Ministership, for 39 of those, wages have risen


slower than prices, so people are worse off. I understand that. You


will know that the broader measurement, real household


disposable income doesn't show that decline because it takes everything


into account. Going around the country, people feel it. They say


where's the recovery for me. Living standards now start to rise? If that


happens, what is your next line There is a set of arguments about


living standards, the National Health Service, about the problems


that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I


can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other


question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed


Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks


like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will


a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign


up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter


does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the


newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My


question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do


with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the


wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The


newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,


Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are


setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it


is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,


we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is


that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really


turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll


sort things out, leave it to us then they have sorted things out but


a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is


check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent


system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee


things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that


That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't


force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by


Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick


with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution


or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been


dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That s 43


years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent


Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We


have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What


do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and


exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go Go.


I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your


mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men


get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.


Dashes-macro know what your age Page three girls, should they stay


or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page


three of the Sun newspaper every day, there is a woman with no top


on. We got rid of that about 40 years ago in Australia. I am not in


favour of censorship. It has been long enough. It can stay there. What


is wrong with it? We want to encourage children to read the


newspapers. I do not want my children to look at that. It is


degrading. Do you think we will see the day when they get rid of it


Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can turn this into some kind of a


shelter. It is tipping it down. I think the council should do


something about their car parks Mother nature, the human body. It


should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against


it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.


Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby


daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up


his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong


with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page


three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged


22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I


have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?


Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not


hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down


for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You


have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned I


have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since


the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think


there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from


outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked


yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their


knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to


be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the


circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 980s


when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their


feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people


buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not


have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is


outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to


ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have


never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been


forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a


boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not


about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement


which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being


in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?


I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not


doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as


there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as


page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be


Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should


be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia


which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in


this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just


over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the


Thank you and welcome to the part of the programme that is just for us


here in the West. Coming up today, has a Somali terrorist organisation


recruited members from the West In this propaganda video, Al`Shabab, a


group related to Al`Qaeda, claims to have recruited fighters from


Bristol. The police tell us this is untrue but one local councillor


still has some concerns. We will be discussing cameras and much more


with our guest today, Sophy Gardner from Gloucester and the conservative


from Yeovil, Marcus Fysh. But first, across the nation,


millions have been reflecting on the sacrifice of service men and women


who have given their lives for this country. Remembrance Sunday is away


is a poignant today and next year marks the 100th anniversary of the


first World War `` First World War. We have been asking local people why


they think poppies are still important.


Today, I chose to wear one because I thought I would make some small


contribution to soldiers whom a lot of effort in Afghanistan and I


wanted to give some formal recognition to them.


I might not support war but I do support the decent treatment of


those who have fought for their country, whether I think their cause


is right or wrong. I'm supporting a really good cause and I think


everyone should remember. It is what we do. It is a matter of respect for


people and the sacrifices they make for their country. And joining me


now is the belch MP Doctor Andrew Merson, who is in charge of the


celebrations for the members of the 100th anniversary of the First World


War. Why are we marking the beginning of the war rather than its


end? The first thing to say that this is a commemoration, it is in no


way a celebration. And during this four`year period, we will be doing


everything we can to encourage people to thing about the causes,


conduct and consequences of this extraordinary moment in our history


which, whether we realise it on a day`to`day basis or not, really does


influence everything that relates to our modern world. It is incredibly


important. It is right we do what we can to explore it in all of its


manifestations and that is what the centenary will be about. Why the


beginning and not the end? It is an integral part of the whole story and


there is international agreement that this event is so huge that we


have to explore it in its entirety. But the Prime Minister once, in his


words, a commemoration that like the diamond to believe says something


about who we are as a people. That was a bit of a knees up. This will


be very different. It needs to be a commemoration and not a celebration.


The Prime Minister is utterly clear about that. This is a commemoration


and its tone will be profoundly different. So it is not cheering


crowds in the mouth Mall? I think foremost amongst those


countries are the Germans, of course. The Germans also want the


European Union recognised for bringing Europe together, to make


sure another conflict like that would be unthinkable. Do you go


along with that? A celebration of Europe? I think different countries


will approach this in a different way and they will have their own


stories and narratives. I don't think the European `` the part that


the European Union has played in the past decade will be a prominent part


of our commemoration but of course it is open to countries like Germany


and others to approach this in a way that they think best fits their


narrative. Was it a just war? That is a vexed question. I hope it will


be debated over the four`year period. What I'm clear about is that


if IM in the position of administering the government that


took the country to war at the time, I would have made the same decision


based on the information available to me. We debated some of those


issues and I think there was a lot of consensus found. While I have you


here, is it right that 16 year roles should be allowed to join the Army?


The Army is breaking on training young people and when they join the


Army, they go through an extensive period of training and cannot enter


a combat role until they achieve their majority, so that has been the


case for a while and I think most people would accept that as being


reasonable. Thank you for joining us. We will be seeing a lot of you


over the next 12 months. Let us turn to our guests. Sophy,


you were a Wing Commander. Is the government getting the tone of these


events right? It is hard to say there is a lot to come out. The most


important thing that it is solemnly commemorated. I was at the Cenotaph


in 2008 when it was the 90th anniversary of the end of the first


World War with the three last surviving soldiers of the First


World War. Getting the tone right is what we are seeking to achieve


rather than anything veering towards the Diamond Jubilee. It is important


we are working with the German government on this. We built on the


bomber command Memorial with them and so there is an inscription to


all people who died. Will they come a time when we actually draw a line


under the First World War and say this is now ancient history? I


really don't because I think it is 16 the important that we do remember


`` extremely important and that we do remember that it was a war that


was completely different in character and nature than to


anything we had seen before and the scale of the losses was so great


that it truly traumatised both nations in very different ways.


Thank you. We have to move on. Back in 1914, we knew who the enemy was.


Today, it is not so clear. Here in the West, police have been examining


a video released by the terrorist group Al`Shabab who have linked to


Al`Qaeda. It follows claims they recruited members for Bristol for


the local holy war. Al`Shabab is a terrorist


organisation with links to Al`Qaeda. In this propaganda video, probably


filmed in Somalia, where the group originates, their messages aimed at


Britain. We are accompanied by brothers from London, Liverpool


Bristol and Cardiff. The group are believed to be responsible for the


deaths of at least 67 people, some of whom were British, when militants


stormed this night robe each shopping centre on the 21st of


September. `` Nairobi. Al`Shabab claims they have recruited members


from the streets of Bristol. Nevertheless, this propaganda video


has raised concerns in the community. This woman is the first


Somali born councillor in Britain. She worked closely with the growing


community. There are now thought to be over 20,000 Somalis living in the


city. As austerity continues to bite and communities and families are


poorer, young men in particular are disenfranchised and shut up from


society. What are the chances of them being radicalised? What are the


chances of someone with negative intentions coming along and


providing them with an outlet for that? Officers from Avon and


Somerset have examined the video. Basic amenity teams work closely


with local mosques and community leaders in the city. They were


tipped off by the community about Andrew Ibrahim, a young Muslim


convert, convicted of planning a terrorist bomb attack in Bristol in


2009. We are aware of the video and we know that Bristol was mentioned


among lots of other cities in Britain. Whilst we are never


complacent, we are relaxed about the situation in Bristol. We have


excellent committee relations with the communities in Bristol and we


have not done any tension from the video and we are confident that we


never would. Working with the community is an ethos shed at the


school, where many of the local Somali children are pupils. Here we


have 60 countries of origin and some of them are from very `` very Ramon


parts of Africa. We don't allow any separation or any sense of exclusion


to come in, to allow separation to creep in. We spent a lot of money on


blazers so they feel part of the community. It is a modern cancer,


poverty, and so we have adapted to tackle that. There are students who


claim for free school meals and that has increased in the last four


years. With concerns about children falling into poverty, there are


concerns they could become radicalised. There is no evidence


that people have fallen for this Al`Shabab propaganda but the British


authorities are keeping a close aye on things.


Letters pick up on that. Is there a concern that poverty could be a


driving force for radicalisation? I think there is or is a risk and we


as a society need to make sure that nobody forced through the cracks and


that we notice when somebody is honourable to radicalisation of any


kind. I think it is very important that we do have the strong


leadership in the country and the resources for our security forces


for our police to do their job and I think they have those tools at the


moment. We also need to make sure that all of our social services are


looking at these things as well Are we winning the ideological war? The


ideological war in the sense... I don't think there is an ideological


war in the sense that terrorism for most people is just utterly wrong


and file on any side and so I am unhappy with the term war on terror.


I was in America on the day of 11 because I conceded originally were


heading and I didn't like it. Now, they are doing great work on the


local level in Bristol and she is the right person to be doing that


work. Around the country, there is good work being done on


radicalisation and online activity. We are heading in the right


direction. Some people would think why did we allow Sony people to come


to this country who do not share our values? `` so many people. It is


vital that we do not let immigration cloud our view on criminals. That is


not the same as all people who are immigrants or emigrants out of this


country. We should be very careful, it is not the same as being as them.


My set mother is a muslin. I have no problem with that. `` my stepmother


is a Muslim. The police are monitoring many conversations


online. Is that justified? One of the reasons we are able to go about


our daily lives in the way we have done for many decades in a freeway


in this country is because we have is we have a strong outer ring, so


we have a capable militarily, we have capable security services. Is


that worth the price of having people snooping? I think it is. It


is a very bottom part about information set. We need to be


careful before we allow our techniques to become known to the


people who would hurt us and I think that is a bit of a risk. We have to


leave it there because we need to talk about money. With council is


working on their budgets, one area now being lined up for cuts is


children centres. Swindon is slicing hundreds of thousands from what it


spends about Somerset proposes changes to dozens of centres. The


first big flash point could come on Wednesday in Bath, over a planned ?2


million cut. It is stories time at Parkside is


children centre. `` Parkside Children's Centre. Many feel that


the wolf is at the door for these centres. They want to cut their


funding by the 40%. It has sparked a big risk campaign by their


opponents. These children's centres provide a huge range of activities


that provide universal services for parents and parents who are in


particular need. If there is a 2.3 million cut, 50% of most of the


services will go because 50% of staff will be cut. It has alarmed


Betty Williams, she got help after suffering postnatal depression. To


get that support and even tips to deal with things going on in my


life... So impressed was sheep by the Russ Doctor consider that she ``


Radstock to centre. If it was cut, it would be devastating to some


parents. The council hope that all will stay open with help from


volunteers and other organisations. their spending will be targeted at


the most needy. There are other authorities that are cutting


children's centres and what we are seeking to do is to retain all of


our centres and make them be as effective and efficient as possible.


The councils will face protests when they make their controversial


decision. It is not just down to who is decided by the Cabinet. Enough


people signed a petition that it will be debated at a council


meeting. The future of these controversial changes is far from


certain. Back in Radstock, Betty Williams is enjoying being a parent.


She was to make sure others get the same help. I know what it was like


before we had the centres, so we don't want that for them because


that is quite a scary prospect. And I know that if these cuts come


through, it will be targeted but I don't think that is good enough


Every child should get the support. For many councils, the easy cuts


have been made. Now, the next generation will start to feel the


effects of the age of austerities Dine Romero joins us in the studio.


We saw you in the film for sub why are you making this cut? Overall,


although we are quite wealthy, we are faced with cuts that are


unprecedented since World War II. We have had to take a ?30 million cut


over the next two years in order to balance our books. We'd have thought


that children's services would have been towards the bottom of the list


will stop. We asked that the last Budget meeting for our scrutiny


panel to go away and look at what services were needed and what was


vital for the well`being of our young people and our families within


a community. And these are not vital? They are vital. We are not


closing any of the centres. But you have reduced their Budget by 40 ? We


have reduced our Budget but we are looking at trying to create a new


model that we will be working with our partners and volunteer groups in


order to deliver these vital services. Let us bring in our other


guests. Are these justified? Cuts to children's services are always


worrying. It is happening across the country. In Swindon, there have been


a lot of campaigns will stop the early years are vital. We are


looking at local government and a tax on those services for young


people. So Labour councillors would not cut? We cannot say what we would


do in future but just to say we have got a costed proposal to improve


hours of childcare. Let us talk about the politics of it. The Lib


Dems want to do it in Bath and the Tories are opposing it? It is


Labour. The Tories looked at what could be done without children


services. So they are not opposing it? They have worked with us on it.


They have asked for a rethink, as I understand. What were doing in


Somerset is coming up with ways of producing a new model for delivering


children centres. So you have asked for a rethink in some areas but in


Somerset you want a cut? We will invest more money in front line


services, we will cut back on management and administration costs


which Ashley take up half of our Budget there. This is money we have


to save but we need to make our services more flexible. How do you


make services better with less money? You have to be creative, you


have to look at who else is out there that has local knowledge, who


else can help you in delivering the services. You are looking at


volunteer groups, charities, all sorts of other partners and one of


the big benefits from other partners is they can actually drawn funds


that as a council we are not able to do. In a word, will you climb down


all this go ahead? At the moment, it is a proposal, a plan, we need to


look at it and see how it can be delivered. That will form the


discussion on Wednesday and the overall decision does not happen


until February, at our next Budget. Thank you for coming in. Time for


our round`up in six T seconds. `` 60 seconds.


Three people died on to accidents on the outskirts of Gloucester. The


leader of Gloucestershire County Council has written to the Transport


Secretary demanding action. We need to stop this being not only a


bottleneck but also a really dangerous stretch of road.


Firefighters across the West went on strike again as part of a national


row over changes to pensions. The government is playing to increase


the retirement age from 55 to 6 . The chief Gaza border they then and


Somerset police says that keenly Felix need to be rebuilt following


the death of one man. They described his murder in Bristol as an horrific


incident. The IPCC are investigating the police's investigation.


A court has ruled that Somerset cows or acted illegally it cut youth


services. Judges at the Court of Appeal said the council failed to


insult young people adequately and when they voted through the cuts


last year. That was the week just gone. Let us


pick up quickly on the judicial reviews that seem to be going into


anything. Are there too many now? There are a lot of them but it is


important that the principle of being able to account for the


sessions and check they are legal issues the vital. The Prime Minister


said they were a growing industry, didn't he? It is important they are


based on something real and I think the changes that the prime and is


the once I just to limit some of the timescales in it. It is important, I


agree. That is all we have time for. Thank you to Sophy Gardner and


Marcus Fysh for joining us. We are back next week. See you then, now


more equipment so they can see cyclists. Back to you, Andrew.


We learned this week that no more warships will be built at


Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose


and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the


Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the


United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign


for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to


doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English


Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to


stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best


outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?


We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is


an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the


people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for


independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be


dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without


true representation. The union continues but it continues without


Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional


position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional


position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We


want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained


or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.


Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If


that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,


it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the


union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by


England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,


wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny


list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to


the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very


concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched


British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable


situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with


Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about


trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile


situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation


separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and


Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I


want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were


sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to


remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.


Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become


a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England


to have their representation - representation that looks at


policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern


Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way


forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system


might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you


want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is


implement the process is to get their representation for England. I


would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way


to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.


Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the


British government is trying desperately to save the union by


giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this


business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been


pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the


union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a


disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a


minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow


its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to


admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be


dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a


Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a


killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in


this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.


And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial


area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has


backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in


Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English


nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist


in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed


to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to


win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to


imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more


autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David


Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any


vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,


you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is


economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the


United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this


government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of


being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case


of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave


That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you


like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you


happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last


week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He


said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,


what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll


hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I


have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?


Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used


drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years


ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few


times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I


tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around


you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that


get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession


by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once


smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that


she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about


them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not


deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant


to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat


his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a


generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went


through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables


and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely


honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy


is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was


saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet


Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,


you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you


cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing


and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is


enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair


or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be


mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There


was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He


was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the


line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.


Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will


surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes


on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those


who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.


The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,


early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages


will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not


be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this


trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very


careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a


certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled


before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory


strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement


or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.


-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions


about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.


They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be


surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it


is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be


cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two


at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.


Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.


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